#corythus

[dilutedh2so4]

Oenone had the gift of prophecy, she knew what would happen from the start, and yet she still loved Paris for the time she had with him. The main reason she sent out Corythus (to guide the Achaeans to Troy / to plot against Helen / to seduce her) is because her father had taunted her about having “lost” Paris to a “more beautiful” woman.

It varies with her intent in not healing her husband (Lycophron says his wound was incurable; Parthenius makes her still set out to save him just after rejecting the messenger; Quintus gives her that whole speech wholeheartedly spurning him; Conon has her praying for him to be wounded and forced to come back to her) yet the stories all end the same. After hearing of Paris’ demise, Oenone ends her life - out of grief, or regret, or both. Morbidly, this is the one of the few consistent things about her portrayals.

Oenone loved Paris even after all he had done, that she would go so far as to lose her will to live when he died.

[hermesmoly]

Oenone deserved her happy ending, God I hate that she committed suicide for Paris and they blame her for abandoning him when he abandoned her

You get it! T-T

Oenone should've been kissing girls like Medea and lived the rest of her days in peace, like why commit to her being the "bitter first wife" who refused the man who abandoned her (AND THEIR KID BTW) medical care then retract it and say she regrets it? And lose her life for it? Like no! Let her be mean! Anyone who blames her gets my fists!

(Alternatively, I do view Oenone refusing to treat Paris as a sort of karma for killing Corythus, their forgotten son. Either way her dying is so stupid and I wish authors back then knew what to do with her character.)

[babyrdie]

Can you tell me more about Oneone character

Oenone myth

The Greek myths of Oenone are largely restricted to Paris, as far as I know! Since there isn't much beyond that, I'll post excerpts. And my usual warnings, in case someone read this post outside of the context of my blog:

I’m not a classicist. It’s just a hobby. It's possible that I forget or make mistakes, and I'm always open to corrections and additions.

I focus on discussing Greek sources. There are Roman sources, I'm just not mentioning them because they're not my focus.

Oenone was the daughter of the River Cebren (Pseudo-Apollodorus, Library, 3.12.6; Parthenius of Nicaea, Love Romances, 4; Tzetzes, Ad Lycophronem, 54. Note: In the Parthenius text, Nicander of Colophon is presented as Parthenius's inspiration, so he counts here as well. You can read about it here.) or of Oeneus (Tzetzes, Ad Lycophronem, 54). In none of the attributions (Cebren and, more rarely in the surviving sources, Oeneus), was her mother's name mentioned.

Cebren was a Troad river god and even had coins named after him (see here). I didn't find a website indicating a source explicitly stating who his father and mother are, but there are chances that they’re the titans Oceanus and Tethys because it was common for river deities to be their children. In any case, Oenone wasn’t an Oceanid (daughters of Oceanus) or a Nereid (daughters of Nereus), but a Naiad (freshwater nymphs) of Mount Ida. There are two Mount Ida, but in this case I'm talking about the one near Troy. 

By Cebren, Oenone was the sister of the nymph Asterope. Asterope was the wife of one of Priam's sons, Aesacus. Aesacus was responsible for interpreting Hecuba's dream, saying the meaning was that Paris would be the cause of Troy's destruction. As a consequence, Paris was exposed as a baby (Pseudo-Apollodorus, Library, 3.12.5; Tzetzes, Ad Lycophronem, 224). In other words, interestingly, Oenone's brother-in-law interpreted Hecuba's dream and this interpretation caused Paris to be exposed, which in turn caused him to be raised as a shepherd by Agelaus, which in turn caused him to meet Oenone. They had a son named Corythus, whom Paris abandoned as he abandoned Oenone (Conon, Narrations, 23; Parthenius of Nicaea, Love Romances, 34. Note: In the Parthenius text, Cephalon of Gergitha and Hellanicus of Mytilene, a contemporary historian of Herodotus, are presented as sources for this version).

Oenone had knowledge of healing and prophesying, and she’s a character with a lot of personality. She’s represented as sweet (as a wife), as worried (because of the prophecy), as jealous (because of Helen), as vengeful (because of Paris), as sorry (because of her attitude), as mourning (because of Paris' death) and as suicidal (because of Paris' death). Although she probably knew Paris would eventually be a prince, when Oenone becomes his wife, it’s to be the wife of a shepherd on Mount Ida. Her love for him was genuine (depending on the source, it’s possible to know that he genuinely loved her too). To me, Paris' death is directly caused by Philoctetes (because of the arrow), but indirectly caused by Paris himself (because of his actions. He wouldn't be dead if he had listened to Oenone, and she wouldn't refuse him if she didn't have reasons to).

Furthermore, there are versions in which Oenone is the one who sends her son to war with the intention of taking revenge on Paris, which is...an interesting attitude for a mother. Corythus didn't need to go to the Trojan War, Oenone was basically throwing away the luck that many mothers in the Trojan myths would have loved to have. Like, I think Thetis, Anticlea, and Hecuba are well-known examples. And yet, there are versions in which she risks this in order to harm Paris. So, yeah. She's kind of just remembered as "the one Paris abandoned, and she still killed herself because of this man" in a vibe that makes it seem like her character is bland, but I genuinely think she has an interesting personality. She is very human!

Bacchylides

(518 BC– 451 BC)

From high above the comely wife of Paris, Oinone, hastened along her final path.

Fragment 20D. Translation by David A. Campbell.

Here we only know that Oenone committed suicide by jumping from a high place.

Lycophron of Chalcis

(Probably born about 330 BC–325 BC)

[...] all which things the jealous spouse [Oenone] shall bring to light, sending her son [Corythus] to indicate the land, angered by her father’s [Cebren] taunts, for her bed’s sake and because of the alien bride. [Helen] And herself, the skilled in drugs [Oenone], seeing the baleful wound incurable of her husband [Paris] wounded by the giant-slaying arrows of his adversary, [Philoctetes] shall endure to share his doom, from the topmost towers to the new slain corpse hurtling herself head foremost, and pierced by sorrow for the dead shall breathe forth her soul on the quivering body.

Alexandra. Translation by Aw Mair.

In Alexandra, Lycophron wrote from the point of view of a slave, who had been sent to watch over Cassandra, who was believed by everyone (including the Trojans) to be mad. He's reporting what she said (her prophecies) to King Priam. Here, Cebren apparently says something about Helen being preferred over Oenone, which angers Oenone and makes her even more jealous, so she sends the son she has with Paris, Corythus, to help the Achaeans take Troy. Paris is eventually injured by Philoctetes and Oenone, grieving, commits suicide throwing herself from a high place.

Synthesizing:

Oenone is proficient in healing.

Paris and Oenone were married, and had Corythus.

Paris leaves her for Helen, which makes Cebren provoke her.

Angered, Oenone sends her son to help the Achaeans.

Paris is injured by Philoctetes and dies. Because of this, Oenone commits suicide jumping from a high place.

Strabo

(64/63 BC–24 AD)

Demetrius (of Scepsis) supposes that the tract about Ilium, subject to Hector, extended to this place, from the Naustathmus (or station for vessels) to Cebrenia, for he says that the sepulchre of Alexander Paris exists there, and of Œnone, who, according to historians, was the wife of Alexander, before the rape of Helen.

Geography, 13.1.33. Translation by George Bell & Sons.

Synthesizing:

They’re married, but Paris left her for Helen.

Both of them die.

Conon

(This part of Conon was preserved because of Photius, who is Byzantine. However, Conon was a contemporary of the founder of Rome, probably born in the 1st century BC and dying in the 1st century AD)

The 23rd, how the boy Korythos was born to Alexandros of Paris and Oinone, whom he married before kidnapping Helen. He excelled his father in beauty. His mother sent him to Helen, arousing the jealousy of Alexandros and plotting something bad against Helen. As usual, Korythos went to Helen, and Alexandros passing into the room and seeing Korythos sitting beside Helen, was inflamed by suspicion and killed him straightaway. After this outrage to her and killing of her son Oinone cursed Alexandros, and prayed (for she was inspired with prophecy and the knowledge of preparing potions) that he would be wounded by the Achaeans and, unable to find treatment, would ask for her. And she went home. Later Alexandros was wounded by Philoctetes in the battle for Troy with the Achaeans. Suffering terribly, he was taken to Mt. Ida in a wagon, and sending ahead a herald asked for Oinone. She insultingly rejected the herald, saying Alexandros should go to Helen instead. And Alexandros died of his wound on the road. She meanwhile, not knowing of his end, had repented and was feeling terrible. Having harvested herbs she was hastening to reach him. How she learned from the herald that he had died and that she killed him, and she killed the herald, smashing his head with a stone for the insult. After draping herself over the dead Alexandros and reproaching their shared daimon, she hanged herself with her belt.

Narrations, 23. Translation by Brady Kiesling.

Corythus is presented as the son of Oenone and Paris. He was more beautiful than Paris, and Oenone sent him to Troy. There, he quickly became close to Helen, which made Paris jealous. Because of his jealousy, Paris killed Corythus immediately. This made Oenone enraged, so she cursed him to be harmed by the Achaeans and to need her help. This actually happened because Paris was injured by Philoctetes, and when he asked Oenone for help she refused. However, she regretted it and tried to heal him, but the herald said that Paris had died because of her. Angered, she crushed the herald's head with a stone, lamented over Paris's body and then committed suicide by hanging herself with her own belt. A difference here is that Oenone curses him later, instead of simply prophesying previously.

Synthesizing:

Oenone has knowledge of prophecies and brewing potions.

Oenone and Paris are married and have a son prettier than him named Corythus.

Corythus, in Troy, leaves Paris jealous of his proximity to Helen. Paris kills him.

Oenone is enraged and curses Paris to be mortally injured and need her help in the future.

Upon hearing from the herald that Paris' death was her fault, Oenone kills him.

 Afterwards, she mourns over Paris' corpse and commits suicide by hanging.

Parthenius of Nicaea 

(Exact dates uncertain, but he probably lived until the accession of Tiberius, which happened in 14 AD. So Parthenius must have been born in 1st century BC and died in 1st century AD. However, Parthenius takes inspiration from earlier sources, which I have already mentioned.)

When Alexander, Priam’s son, was tending his flocks on Mount Ida, he fell in love with Oenone the daughter of Cebren: and the story is that she was possessed by some divinity and foretold the future, and generally obtained great renown for her understanding and wisdom. Alexander took her away from her father to Ida, where his pasturage was, and lived with her there as his wife, and he was so much in love with her that he would swear to her that he would never desert her, but would rather advance her to the greatest honour. She however said that she could tell that for the moment indeed he was wholly in love with her, but that the time would come when he would cross over to Europe, and would there, by his infatuation for a foreign woman, bring the horrors of war upon his kindred. She also foretold that he must be wounded in the war, and that there would be nobody else, except herself, who would be able to cure him: but he used always to stop her, every time that she made mention of these matters. Time went on, and Alexander took Helen to wife: Oenone took his conduct exceedingly ill, and returned to Cebren, the author of her days: then, when the war came on, Alexander was badly wounded by an arrow from the bow of Philoctetes. He then remembered Oenone’s words, how he could be cured by her alone, and he sent a messenger to her to ask her to hasten to him and heal him, and to forget all the past, on the ground that is had all happened through the will of the gods. She returned him a haughty answer, telling him he had better go to Helen and ask her; but all the same she started off as fast as she might to the place where she had been told he was lying sick. However, the messenger reached Alexander first, and told him Oenone’s reply, and upon this he gave up all hope and breathed his last: and Oenone, when she arrived and found him lying on the ground already dead, raised a great cry and, after long and bitter mourning, put an end to herself.

Love Romances, 4. Translation by S. Gaselee.

Here, Oenone was known for her wisdom, acquired thanks to her possession by some deity (here unnamed). After meeting Paris, he lived with Oenone as his wife in Ida, near his pasture. He swore that he would love her forever and not abandon her. Oenone knew that Paris was sincere in stating that he loved her completely, but she also knew, thanks to her prophetic abilities, that her husband would leave her for another foreign woman.

She warned him how this would cause a war and that he would be mortally injured, and that the only person capable of healing him would be Oenone. Paris never wanted to listen, which I imagine in this version is because even though Oenone was known for her wisdom and prophetic gifts, Paris at the time was very much in love with her and didn't want to accept that this was the truth: he would abandon her. But she was right and Paris did leave her for Helen. Knowing that he would prioritize Helen, Oenone left the place that used to be their home and returned to live on her father River Cebren.

Paris, wounded by Philoctetes, remembered Oenone's words. He sent a messenger after her to persuade her to come back. Still bitter over having been so easily abandoned despite having been his wife, Oenone refused him. She rethought and decided to go to Troy to cure him, but the messenger arrived before her. When Paris heard that Oenone wouldn’t heal him, he no longer attempted to resist and thus died. When Oenone arrived he was already dead. Grieving and remorseful for Paris, she committed suicide (not mentioned how).

Of the union of Oenone and Alexander was born a boy named Corythus. He came to Troy to help the Trojans, and there fell in love with Helen. She indeed received him with the greatest warmth – he was of extreme beauty – but his father discovered his aims and killed him. Nicander however says that he was the son, not of Oenone, but of Helen and Alexander, speaking of him as follows: – There was the tomb of fallen Corythus, Whom Helen bare, the fruit of marriage-rape, In bitter woe, the Herdsman’s evil brood.

Love Romances, 34. Translation by S. Gaselee.

Yeah…basically, yes. Corythus, son of Paris and Oenone, went to Troy as reinforcement, but fell in love with Helen. Helen, finding him extremely handsome, was very attentive. Jealous, Paris killed him. Nicander, however, says that Corythus is Helen and Paris's son. He's still dead in Nicander's version, although the details of why aren't said (if it's for the same reason as the version where he's Oenone's son...well, really weird).

Synthesizing:

Oenone knew how to prophesy because she was possessed by an unnamed deity. She was renowned for it.

Oenone and Paris fell in love and they lived together at the Ida.

He was indeed in love with her, but Oenone already knew it wouldn't be eternal as he promised her.

She warned him of the fall of Troy and Philoctetes, but Paris ignored her.

When he left, Oenone was either pregnant with Corythus or Corythus was a baby/child (it's not said, but for him to exist...well, Paris has to have gotten her pregnant before leaving for Troy).

Paris kills his son.

Paris tries to get help from Oenone, but she refuses. So he dies.

She regrets it and commits suicide (it isn’t said how).

Pseudo-Apollodorus

(1st or 2nd century AD)

[...] Alexander married Oenone, daughter of the river Cebren. She had learned from Rhea the art of prophecy, and warned Alexander not to sail to fetch Helen; but failing to persuade him, she told him to come to her if he were wounded, for she alone could heal him. When he had carried off Helen from Sparta and Troy was besieged, he was shot by Philoctetes with the bow of Hercules, and went back to Oenone on Ida. But she, nursing her grievance, refused to heal him. So Alexander was carried to Troy and died. But Oenone repented her, and brought the healing drugs; and finding him dead she hanged herself.

Library, 3.12.6. Translation by J.G. Frazer.

Here, Oenone is shown to be capable of prophesying because she learned it from Rhea. Knowing that if Paris insisted on Helen, he would die, Oenone tried to warn him. He ignored her warnings (it's not explained why. Maybe he thought she was just jealous? Maybe he was just stubborn?), so Oenone simply told him to return to her if he was hurt because she would heal him (this was the only source I found where she explicitly tells him to return. In others, she warns him of Philoctetes and Paris, remembering this, chooses to return). When that moment arrived, Oenone, ten years having passed since her promise, had changed her mind. Paris died. Too late, she changed her mind and went to Troy to heal him, but discovered that he was already dead. Regretful, she committed suicide by hanging herself.

Synthesizing:

Oenone knows how to prophesy, because she learned from Rhea.

Oenone warns him about the fall of Troy, but Paris doesn't listen.

She promises Paris that she would cure him if he was reached by Philoctetes, and then he leaves.

Paris goes after Oenone after being injured, but she refuses him and he dies.

She regrets it, and that's why she hangs herself.

Quintus Smyrnaeus

(4th century AD)

I'm not going to comment too much on this one, because I think it's already quite detailed. I think that Book 10 of the Posthomerica is the most detailed representation in survivings Greek sources of the Oenone myth. Even things here that weren't usually depicted in other sources, like the gods watching them and Oenone being guided through the forest. Another difference is that here Oenone burns herself to death by throwing herself on Paris’ pyre. Edit (05/06/2024): as as vordemtodgefeit remembered in the reblogs, there is also the detail that Oenone and Paris' ashes are placed in the same urn after they finish burning together on the pyre!

There is also an emphasis on Paris’ childhood in Ida when Quintus says that the nymphs and the shepherds mourn. The Trojans and Helen's reaction is also represented. I won't post excerpts because it's long for a Tumblr post, but you can read it here! And I recommend it, I found Oenone's description really interesting.

????

(Probably some era AD, unknow authorship. Greek original, though)

At Try, in a different direction, the relatives of Alexander, who were seeing to his burial, were carrying his body to Oenone. They say that Oenone – she had been married to him before his abduction of Helen – was so shocked by the sight of his body that she lost all power of speech, lost her spirit and, gradually being overwhelmed with grief, fell down dead. And thus a single tomb held her and him.

Dictys Cretensis, 4.21. Translation by R.M. Frazer.

Here we know that they were married before Paris abandoned her for Helen and she died of grief over his death, there isn't really a huge amount of detail.

Ioannis Tzetzes

(1100 AD–1180 AD)

57  "Everything in the light": Before Helen, Alexander had a wife, Oenone, who, because of Helen's subsequent marriages and the reproach and blame of her father for criticizing her, became angry and sent her son Corythus to lead the Greeks to Troy.  58 "Heavy with jealousy" is Oenone, the wife of Alexander, who was the daughter of Cebren or Oeneus. Alexander had her before Helen, and they had a son, Corythus, whom she sent to lead the Greeks to Troy, being reproached by her father for the reproach and blame of her father and Helen's subsequent marriages.  59 "The son" refers to the son of Oenone and Alexander. 60 "Subsequent" refers to the unlawful ones. 61 "Sorceress": They say that Oenone, wanting to heal the wounded Alexander, was prevented by her father. But after he died, when she later brought the drugs, she found him already dead and killed herself, either by throwing herself into Alexander's funeral pyre, according to Quintus, or by hanging herself, according to Dictys, or by falling from the tower, according to this Lycophron. "Incurable" either because Alexander was dead and could not be healed, or because the arrows of Philoctetes were smeared with the gall of the Hydra, or because she applied the drugs after the wound had been smeared; for Oenone was skilled in prophecy and medicine. Or because she applied the drugs after the wound had been smeared; incurable either because Alexander was dead and could not be healed, or because the arrows were smeared with the poison of the Hydra, in which Alexander was shot, or because she applied the drugs after the wound had been smeared; for Oenone practiced medicine and prophecy.

Ad Lycophronem, 57-61.

This text by Tzetzes is a Byzantine scholia of Lycophron's text, which I also presented in this post. Because Tzetzes is from the 12th century AD, he often cites multiple sources from different eras. The main difference here compared to other sources is that he mentions other possible interpretations of the ending of Oenone and Paris' fate other than her finding him already dead.

[hermesmoly]

The kids!!!

Homer: Are you aware that many Iliad characters are first time fathers? That all of them in one way or another misses a big chunk of their children’s life or never gets to see it at all?

Also Homer: leaves and never elaborates

A doodle for random parenting shiz basically. Order from left to right, top to bottom:

-Menelaus carrying a sleepy Hermione. @hermesmoly I was drawing this when the request came lolol

-Achilles and baby Neo. I don’t know if it’s a thing in other places but hanging on father’s leg and then let him moves it back and forth like an impromptu swing is quite a favorite pastime activity here.

-Odysseus and baby Telemachus who was trying to be a helicopter

-Hector and baby Astyanax when he was born.

-Probably Agamemnon and his three daughters, but I have no official designs. He tried to scold them and was failing. Tbh I feel like Agamemnon would be the type to cosplay buff Bubble from Powerpuff girls along with his daughters. I know he’s not that great but me delulu.

-Patroclus and Neoptolemus. Yes Patroclus contributed in raising him as well, the kid had 2 dads. Fight me.

[death-before-ilion]

Life of Paris (Alexander)

1231 (age 0) Queen Hecabe of Troy dreams that she is about to give birth to a flaming torch that sets her city aflame. Aesacus, son of Priam by his previous wife, interprets the dream and declares the child will bring the downfall of Troy. On the day of Paris's birth, Aesacus further prophetizes that any royal child born that day would have to be killed to save Troy. Paris is born that same day before nightfall. Priam spares the child, unable to kill his own son. Herophile, priestess of Apollo, insists the child must be killed. Priam asks his chief herdsman Agelaus to kill Paris. Agelaus cannot kill the child and exposes him on Mount Ida, where he is suckled by a female bear. Five days later, Agelaus finds Paris alive and adopts him and tells Priam the child is dead.

1216 (age 15) Paris routs a gang of cattle thieves and returns the stolen animals to the herd, thus earning the nickname Alexander. Soon afterwards, Paris becomes the lover of Oenone, daughter of the river god Cebren and oread nymph of Mount Ida.

1214 (age 17) Paris and Oenone get married.

1212 (age 19) birth of their son Corythus on Mount Ida.

1211 (age 20) Paris starts organizing bull fights on Mount Ida, which he wins almost every time.

1209 (age 22) Paris offers a golden crown as a prize for his next bull fight. Ares chooses to participate, transforms into a bull and wins the contest. Paris gives the crown to Ares without hesitation, the honesty of which catches Zeus's attention and leads him to decide that Paris will award the golden apple he has been keeping since the marriage of Thetis and Peleus to the fairest goddess. Judgment of Paris: Paris attributes the golden apple to Aphrodite, earning Hera's and Athena's enmity, but winning the promise of Helen's love, most beautiful of all mortal women.

1208 (age 23) To atone for the supposed murder of his own son, Priam has been organizing expiatory games. Paris's favorite bull is taken to be the prize of this year's games. He decides to participate to win it back. Paris wins all the games, which angers his brother Deiphobus, but his sister Cassandra recognizes him with her seeress powers and Priam welcomes him back to Troy.

1207 (age 24) Paris hires Phereclus to build a fleet, as advised by Aphrodite.

1204 (age 27) Paris and his cousin Aeneas and a contingent of warriors leave for Greece, pretexting to visit and enquire about Hesione, Priam's elder sister. They travel through Greece, and when they reach Sparta, they are welcomed and entertained by Menelaus, husband of Helen who is immediately smitten with love for Paris, as promised by Aphrodite. Menelaus must leave for Crete, for the funeral of king Catreus, his grandfather. As soon as he is gone, Helen embarks with Paris for Troy. However, to avoid being pursued, they detour south of Crete, to Cyprus and Phoenicia. Paris and Aeneas sack Sidon.

1203 (age 28) The fleet reaches Troy. Paris and Helen marry.

1202 (age 29) Birth of Bunomus, their son.

1194 (age 37) Birth of Aganus, their second son.

1193 (age 38) The siege of Troy begins.

1192 (age 39) Birth of Idaeus, their third son.

1191 (age 40) Oenone sends their now adult son Corythus to Paris to participate in the war against the Greeks. He is welcomed by Helen and is stricken by her beauty. Paris does not recognize his son and kills him out of jealousy before he is informed of his identity.

1188 (age 43) Troy is struck by a minor earthquake, but the three sons of Paris and Helen are killed by the collapsing roof of their house.

1184 (age 47) Paris duels Menelaus and is saved by Aphrodite. He wounds Diomedes and later kills Achilles with an arrow guided by Apollo. Philoctetes wounds Paris with an arrow bearing the poison of the Lernaean Hydra. Helen rushes to Mount Ida to beg for Oenone's healing skills. She refuses and Paris soon dies. Oenone commits suicide.

[littlesparklight]

I know that in most stories only Hermione exists but in some of the stories where Helen also has kids with Paris, what happens to them? What’s their outcome?

ps. I can’t imagine Helen wanting to have kids in the first place. She comes off as someone who didn’t want to have kids but had to. I kinda headcanon that although she learned to love Hermione, it was not this unconditional love that moms are supposed to feel and she felt very guilty over that

Mostly, we don't know what happens to them, because the sources are fragmentary!

Aganos Scholiast on Euripides, Andr. 898: The writer of the Cyprian Histories says that (Helen's third child was) Pleisthenes and that she took him with her to Cyprus, and that the child she bore Alexandrus was Aganus.

For some reason this fragment isn't in my edition of the Loeb that deals with Epic Cycle fragments, and neither has Martin West included it in The Epic Cycle: a Commentary on the Lost Troy Epics, as excellent as it otherwise is. It is however included in an earlier Loeb edition, and Malcolm Davies in his The Cypria (freely available on The Center for Hellenic Studies website) includes it as well. Maybe because it's a question of if "Cyprian Histories/Kypriakas historias" are assumed to be another work and not the same as the Kypria.

I think this is the only place Aganos is mentioned (unless he's one of the three children mentioned by John Malalas). If this fragment doesn't belong to the Kypria, Since we apparently can't be sure which work this detail belongs to, and thus not how old of an idea Aganos is, it's impossible to say if there was, in fact, some pre-Homeric and traditional idea to Helen and Paris having at least one child.

What's really interesting for this fragment is, of course, that presumably these two half-brothers grow up together. Why Helen would take a probably-infant son with her on a potentially dangerous journey, but leave Hermione (whatever her age), I have no idea. This is all we know of these two, so what their end was we don't have a clue.

(Pleisthenes' pre-war existence here is interesting to me, too, since it sort of hooks into the existence of these other children of Menelaos and Helen existing pre-war. Sophocles in his Electra (line 539ff) says Menelaos and Helen had two children by the point Paris came to Sparta, because he could/should then have sacrificed either of them instead of Klytaimnestra having to give up Iphigenia. I wonder which potential son is imagined - is it Pleisthenes again, who we by this fragment knows could be pre-war? Is it Nikostratos, though he's usually given as the youngest and post-war?)

Korythos, Bunomos and Idaios Dictys (probably written somewhere in the 50-100CE) is where these three are grouped as children of Helen and Paris, and Dictys also has these three children killed. It happens right after Paris' own death, where a roof collapses in on them (the characters believe it judgement/punishment by the gods, but as the gods are absent, even if the moralising idea is undoubtedly meant both by the characters and the author, it doesn't have divine backing in-story). Korythos is sometimes known as Helenos, too.

Even a little earlier than this Korythos can however be the son of Helen and Paris; Nicander around 100 BCE and forward wrote this: "There was the tomb of fallen Corythus, Whom Helen bare, the fruit of marriage-rape*, In bitter woe, the Herdsman’s evil brood." (*the Greek here is harpage-damazo-hymenaios, so Nicander is definitely presenting the Helen-Paris relationship as abduction and rape.)

John Malalas gives Helen and Paris three sons as well (because he's basing his Chronographia off of Dictys), but I don't think their deaths are actually mentioned.

Helen (Jr.) Her only existence is in Ptolemaeus Chennus, which means it is Highly Suspect since his work is probably a parody of a mythological handbook. But I don't want to skip her, for part of this is quite charming, honestly. Paris and Helen each want to name her after themselves and play knucklebones over the privilege, Helen wins. This Helen Jr. is then killed by Hecuba during the sack.

For your p.s.; yeah, I agree! From beginning to end haha, that it was a love that came with time, and that made Helen feel guilty (especially when Hermione was small). Helen being a slightly more involved mother when Hermione is older because they can interact more, on a more complex level, and thus that's where the bonding and affection really comes. (Or, for my version where I have Hermione still a toddler, would have come.) I vaguely have the headcanon that both Helen and Kytaimnestra actually had no great desire for children and found no great fount of maternal ability or fondness when they did, by duty, have them. (I think my feeling on Klytaimnestra is then that that's why she lavished so much on Iphigenia, as her oldest. She wasn't abusive before the sacrifice, just not the most present or maternal mother.)

[godsofhumanity]

🌻

i know the lore says that Iasion was the son of Zeus (by the Pleiad Electra), but thematically, i just don't think that makes a whole lot of sense.

Demeter, right through her myths, is ALWAYS being taken advantage of by the gods of Olympus, particularly the big three:

Zeus -- the birth of Persephone isn't really recorded, so we don't know what exactly happened there, but either way, by all accounts, i don't think he was very active in his daughter's life and Demeter was most likely left to do all the hard stuff (like so many other lovers of Zeus). secondly, he straight up gives Persephone up to Hades w/o consulting Demeter. thirdly, he kills Iasion out of jealousy for him getting to third-base with Demeter using no tricks at all, which i think is just the icing on a very big cake flavoured "all the things Zeus did to botch his relationship with Demeter".

Poseidon -- rapes her as a horse (producing Despoina and Arion).

Hades -- kidnaps her daughter. i know this is all "legal" but it doesn't change the fact that Demeter was betrayed by her own brother.

so because of all of this. i just don't see Demeter wanting to have anything to do with the gods... she stays in her fields and away from all of them.

that's why i think that it's so important that Demeter's true love is just some guy. he's not a god. he's not a hero. he's not even a prince. he has no divine blood whatsoever. he's just Iasion. just a simple farmer. i think Iasion needs to be SO opposite to all the other guys in Demeter's life. i think that's what makes him so appealing to her.

so yeah. that's my hc-- Iasion's mum is Electra but his dad is just Corythus, and he's not a king or anything.

[fountain-nymph-oenone]

Thanks! *she smiles* so um....I dont know where to go now, could you help?

“Oh uhm—hello! You seem nice.”

@not-the-capital-paris

o-oh! Hello?- I.....wait...love?

[frigidreads]

Mythology Hot Takes

So I just want to put this out there.

Prince Paris had a wife and a son (a nymph named Oenone and a son named Corythus) that he abandoned to go after Helen, who was also a married woman with a child. This wasn't an arranged marriage, Helen was allowed to choose her husband and she chose Menelaus. After showing up as a guest under false pretenses, Paris also robbed his host, making off with the treasury of Sparta and Helen. On top of that, Paris didn't win over Helen with his personality or anything, he literally had a goddess bewitch her as a bribe. So... Yeah I don't consider this to be a romantic thing nor am I on board with seeing Paris as a good guy like he's painted in some modern retellings. I think he's honestly scummy and deserved to get killed. I do feel bad for everyone else in Troy, especially Hector and his family though. They should be considered among Paris' victims.

[litcest]

Auge and Telephus

Oh, this a long one. Telephus is a super popular character in Greek Myths, being the son of Heracles and best buddies with Achilles (I think Patroclus would be jealous). His whole life story is quite interesting, but I want to talk about the bit in which he almost marries his mother, a là Oedipus style.

The oldest account of her is in Hesiod's Catalogue of Women, from c. 6th century BC, where she was raised by Teuthras in Mysia and later she is seduced by Heracles, which results in the birth Telephus. No more information on her is given.

We have mentions that around the 6th-5th century BC, a dude named Hecataeus wrote about her and Heracles. We know that because Pausanias mentions him in his Description of Greece from c. 110-180 CE. This is basically a game of telephone: Pausanias says that Hecataeus said that Auge lived in Tegea, where she had an affair with Heracles and got pregnant. Her dad, Aleus found this out and locked Auge and her child in a chest, which he threw into the sea. The chest arrived in Mysia, where the king, Teuthras, married her.

The next account of her I could find of her comes from Pseudo-Apollodorus Bibliotheca, from the 1st century CE. Here, it's said that Heracles raped Auge, who was a priestess of Athena, and that, when Aleus discovered his daughter had given birth, he left the child to die in Mount Parthenius (which failed, as the child was taken care by shepherds who found him) and sold Auge to Teuthras, who made her his wife. Later in the book, Apollodorus says that Telephus, Auge's son, found her in Mysia and became the prince.

In the book IV, chapter 33 from Diodorus Siculus Bibliotheca historica, which dates to 60-30 BC, Auge is once again said to have been raped and afterwards her father sent her to be drowned, but she gives birth to Telephus in secret and the man who was supposed to drown her takes pity on her and decides to gift her to Teuthras as a wife. The child was found and brought to King Corythus, who raises him as his own. When grown, Telephus desires to find his mother and, after learning her location through the Oracle of Delphi, sails to Mysia, where he marries Teuthras' daughter and becomes princes.

In Hyginus Fabulae, from 1 CE, Auge gives birth to Heracles' son in secret in Mount Parthenius and left baby. The child, Telephus, is then raised by shepherds along Atalanta's (the girl who runs, you know?) child, Parthenopaeus. Auge runs to Mysia, where King Teuthras adopts her as a daughter, since he had no children, which is a very different take from the previous ones, in which she became his wife.

It is within Fabulae that we finally get the Oedipus-style incest I mentioned before. You see, Teuthras had an enemy, Idas, and he offered his daughter's hand in marriage to the hero who managed to kill him. Telephus, along with his foster brother, Parthenopaeus, were in Mysia following the Oracle's advice to help Telephus find his birth mom and decide to take King Teuthras up on his offer. However, Auge wants nothing to do with this marriage and plans to kill Telephus.

The king fulfilled his promise, and gave him his kingdom and Auge as wife, unaware of the relationship. Since she [faithful to Hercules] wished no mortal to violate her body, she intended to kill Telephus, not realizing he was her son.

But before Auge can kill her new husband, a serpent sent by the gods stopped her. Telephus then is about to kill her for having tried to kill him when she begs Heracles (here called Hercules because it's a Roman text) for help and this causes Telephus to realize she's his mother. IDK how, but it does. Anyway, they go back to their home country happily ever after as mother and son, at least until Telephus goes to fight in the Trojan War side to side with his buddy Achilles.

This almost marriage between mother and son seem to be a later addiction to the myth of Telephus, as (at least from what I could find) it only appears in a Roman text. A later Roman dude, Aelian, blames the "tragic dramatists and their predecessors, the inventors of fables" for the invention of the incest in Telephus story. Indeed, there are lost plays about Auge and Telephus, and they may be from where this part of the myth originated, in a attempt to remake the success of Oedipus. But we may never know.

[dilutedh2so4]

Corythus

Went down a rabbit hole of sources on Paris’ son Corythus and decided I would summarise what I’ve found :)

Lycophron’s Alexandra notes a son of Oenone who was sent to help the Achaeans after Oenone’s river-god father taunted her for losing Paris to Helen.

The first named mention I could find is quite late in the game, Parthenius’ Love Romances of the 1st century BC (though the author does mention he got his information from the earlier Hellanicus of Lesbos and Cephalon of Gergitha). Here we are told he is the son of Paris and his first wife (the nymph Oenone), who came to Troy and fell in love with Helen. She is said to have received him with the “greatest warmth,” then Paris ends up killing him… Parthenius does note at the end of his telling that there is an alternate version of a Corythus - recounted by the poet Nicander - where he is a son of Helen and Paris, though no further details are given. I suppose in that version Corythus wouldn’t have tried seducing Helen, since, yk, he was her son!

Conon’s Narrations (as recorded in the 9th c. CE Biblioteca of Photius) is also of the 1st century BC. Here, Oenone explicitly sends Corythus to make Paris jealous as well as to plot “something bad” against Helen. Paris is suspicious when he sees Corythus with his second wife, so he kills him.

Our next entry is the Trojan War Chronicle, supposedly written by Dictys Cretenis, of the 4th century CE. In this, Corythus is one of Helen and Paris’ three sons who all die when a roof collapses in Troy.

John Malalas’ 6th century Chronographia also says Corythus was one of the three sons of Helen and Paris. He and his brothers were the last faces Paris saw before he succumbed to his injuries.

Last, but certainly not least, is John Tzetzes and his Ad Lycophronem. He is from the 1100s CE, but he played a key part in preserving much of the older myths and their meanings. Ad Lycophronem sets out to explain whatever Lycophron was yapping about in the previously mentioned, and enigmatic, Alexandra. Tzetzes clarifies that the son Lycophron was concerned with was in fact Corythus. He records that, reproached by her father Cebren, an angry Oenone sends Corythus to guide the Achaeans to Troy.

[hermesmoly]

Oenone as a character deserved her own Medea ending, she deserves better than to die for the coward who abandoned her

[babyrdie]

Achilles stan are really hypocritical about Alexander now, did you see that?

No, I didn't see it.

I saw people mentioning something about Achilles and Paris, now there's this ask and I'm starting to wonder if the recent ask an anon sent me about Paris was a discreet way to test me (this one, where I explicitly say that I really don't care about Paris discourse). I honestly don't know where the hell this weekly Achilles vs Paris debate came from, so I'm really confused. It's a Tumblr debate and I just didn't see the original post? Is it an debate imported from another website? I don't know. But other than Apollo and Paris killing Achilles, I don't really see what relevant connection these characters have to each other. They also don't even have the same role or the same archetypes, which once again leaves me wondering why this comparison even exists in the first place.

But here we go: my opinion is that no one is a saint. In most of these X vs Y discussions, I'm simply going to consider both characters as not being people who would be considered good today. And it's the same case here.

Achilles killed Tenes despite being warned not to do so (he was warned by Thetis, so he certainly knew she was serious), sacked cities (including not all of them were Trojans), enslaved people (both men and women. Some were sold, others remained. Some were sexual slaves, like Briseis and Diomede), committed a murder inside a temple (Troilus), dishonored a body (Hector), practiced human sacrifice (Patroclus' funeral. And you can see from the narration that it's not a case of "ah, but human sacrifice was cultural and accepted") and stopped the winds just to demand Polyxena's sacrifice (I still wonder how the hell he stopped the wind). He isn't a saint.

Paris ignored Oenone's prophecies about the fall of Troy and abandoned her (she was his first wife. And unlike Cassandra, she wasn't cursed. He didn't listen because he didn't want to), stole Menelaus (I'm not even talking about Helen. He took Menelaus' treasure too. Honestly, at that point Paris knew he was bringing war to Troy and didn't care if he felt so comfortable that he even took the treasure), depending on the version kidnapped Helen, taken city (Sidon), killed a guy because he was jealous of him with Helen (Corythus. Who is his son, by the way) and he ignored the Trojans' requests and continued the war. He was a prince, so I guarantee you he had slaves too, and slaves are indeed mentioned in Trojan territory (e.g. Lycophron writes from the point of view of a slave watching over Cassandra). He isn't a saint.

Yeah, Achilles isn't just a cute guy in love and suffering for his boyfriend, but Paris is also not just a cute and harmless little thing. People paint Paris too much as harmless useless. So my honest opinion is that this discussion is a waste of time because neither of them is the pinnacle of morality. It's reminding me of the Achilles vs Odysseus debates, which were equally pointless because Odysseus, like Achilles and Paris, is also not an immaculate crystal. The Clytemnestra vs. Agamemnon debates were also another pointless thing because sometimes they even cited something they both did but only against one (e.g., Clytemnestra ridiculing Cassandra's status as a Trojan captive in "Agamemnon" and Agamemnon doing the same to Hesione via Teucer in "Ajax"). At this point, I think it would be interesting to read Greek mythology without trying to do morality rankings. I also already talked about this in this post.

So that's it, that's my opinion. I haven't ignored any asks I've received so far, but if I receive one more ask about fans and haters of characters and morality in Greek mythology I'll probably ignore it because I think my opinion is already pretty clear (It's even in my post about my blog). I also talked about this in the Hades Odysseus controversy.

[lesbiaeneas]

i'm sure people much smarter and more extensively studied than me have commented on this but it's so interesting to me that vergil chooses to make the trojan journey to italy not just a journey but a return. their ancestors came from italy and now they go back. the idea of italy as a fated homeland and not just a place the trojans think they're entitled to for no reason at all.

(image description: the following lines from a.s. kline's translation of aeneid 7:

And I remember in truth (though the tale is obscured by time) that the Auruncan elders told how Dardanus, sprung from these shores, penetrated the cities of Phrygian Ida, and Thracian Samos, that is now called Samothrace. Setting out from here, from his Etruscan home, Corythus, now the golden palace of the starlit sky grants him a throne, and he increases the number of divine altars.”

/end description.]

[hermesmoly]

Thank you for answering!!

Cassandra’s case is so tragic, and I can’t help but think of how women often get violent against women because of circumstances (like Cassandra pulling Helen’s hair in a fit of rage when she arrived at Troy, to Cassandra being killed by Clytemnestra because she was a liability/Agamemnon’s forced concubine. It’s always those sisters 😭). You are right, to Helen Cassandra is Bitter and insane as a Mad Woman, and I like how Helen and Cassandra can never be truly close because of that.

AND YES Oenone was just an outsider!! She didn’t deserve any of that heartache!!

heyo! hope you’re having a good day :>

I’m curious, what is your take on Cassandra and Oenone? They are two women in the Epic Cycle with very tragic endings, but both are still very cool in their own right!

Hiya! Thank you for the ask!!

I haven’t had time to read any original Greek Myth classics works other than the Iliad, so my knowledge is a bit limited on this matter. However I have somewhat a general knowledge of their tales and I will give my opinions based on that.

The women of Greek Myth are very interesting to me, as they are complex people and I love the way they embrace their femininity, both in good and bad ways.

Cassandra is just a tragic woman, I think it’s quite brave and understandable for her to deny Apollo. After that even when no one believed her, she still voiced out her prophecies. Her ending was just tragic, being passed from one man to another, being defiled and then being killed as a minor collateral damage. Idk if it’s better that a woman killed her and not a man.

I think she’s important to the overall story as an helpless observer, but unlike other women who know almost nothing, her tragedy is that she knows something, probably too much. This is also why I added her in that fanfic of Helen, hehe. She acted quite bitter and insane there but it’s under the eyes of Helen, another observer who will not be able to understand throughout.

She’s like those women who are very smart and knowledgeable, unfortunately too smart for her own good. No one could keep up with her intellect, and as a result, is seen as a mad woman.

Oenone is even more tragic, as she has basically nothing to do with the Trojan War or even the Priam family. She has no part in the fight. She simply and unfortunately married to Paris. And for her, there was no Paris the prince, covering in shining stuffs and nice things for, but a shepherd, a nobody. She knew him as he was (or did she?)

Her life with Paris was before he knew he was a prince, it’s a simple and honest life (Alexa plays Married life from Up), until bro realized he was a prince and picking another married woman is better (bro your wife’s right there)😭😭😭. She died still loving Paris and out of guilt and grief.

[kingbryancroidragon]

Eochaid mac Enna in the Days of Menelaus Chapter One: The Dream

I have no idea why I am sharing this. Maybe people will like it, but I was thinking something like "Prince Valiant, but with the Matter of Troy instead of the Matter of Britain", but I still want to do my own thing so it isn't an exact transplant. Some liberties may have been taken, I admit.

It had been three years since the Expulsion of the Children of Goidel Glas from Kemet by the Queen Regent Twosret. While the Tribe of Israel may have been wiped out by Merneptah, Ramesses the Great’s noble son, and the future may have belonged to the Gaels, they were a people in exile dwelling in Scythia, the birthplace of Nel, the Scythian prince who married Scota, Daughter of Horemheb, and became father of Goidel Glas.

Day had come and Eochaid mac Enna sat before a plain, watching the horses as they grazed. He was ruddy skinned with short, curly red hair and mismatched eyes, the left frosty blue and the right green, the latter having a tendency to shine like that of a cat. He was fifteen years of age and stood at a height of five feet and five inches, only an inch shorter than Merneptah had been. He was lean and hungry in appearance, his jaw square, his nose large, hooked and pink tipped, his cheekbones sharp and the rest of his head like an egg in shape. His eyelids were close-fitting, causing his mismatched eyes to appear small and triangular. He was of common appearance, not particularly good-looking. His attire was that of the Scythians and so he wore trousers, a tunic, a long-sleeved jacket and boots.

As Eochaid sat, staring at the horses, he thought of the dream he had the night prior. In that dream, he had heard a woman’s voice say: “Choose me and I shall give you the most beautiful woman in all the world as your wife.”

A pleasant voice belonging to a man replied: “If such a woman exists, I will gladly abandon my wife Oenone and our son Corythus for her! What is her name?”

Out of the darkness a city appeared, a city as splendid as the Pella of Alexandros III, the Rome of Julius Caesar, the Camelot of Arthur, the Aachen of Charles, the Winchester of Aethelstan and the London of Richard Coeur-de-Lion would be, for this city came before all of them. A good, strong voice pronounced: “Our worthy king Menelaus, stepson-in-law of Tyndareus, and his beautiful queen Helena, stepdaughter of Tyndareus.”

Out of a palace stepped the royal couple. The king was a man of fifty-one, of moderate stature, auburn-hair greying and handsome. The queen was twenty-three, beautiful, brown-haired with legs which Dares Phrygius would call the best, a mouth that he would call the cutest and a beauty mark between her eyebrows. With the royal couple was a girl of six years and a boy of two. Their children no doubt.

Again, Eochaid heard the voice of the evil-hearted man who had been promised Helena. “Helena of Lacedaemon…” he said. “I shall steal you away and make you Helena of Troy!”

Then the scene changed. In a bay with what must have been a thousand ships and a gruff voice uttered: “Though my beloved Helena and our son Nicostratus have been stolen away by Paris and the Trojans, I will not standby idly. I call upon all who will join me in rescuing her. The suitors that she turned down, the children of the Argonauts and more. For many this will be their destiny.”

And there stood Eochaid, clad in the armour of Achaea, so different from where he was now, looking upon a sea of grass where horses grazed. It was his destiny, he knew it. He had to tell his father Enna of his dream, his destiny!

Thus, did Eochaid run to the home where he and his father lived, only to find a great crowd around it. Enna had joined Eochaid’s mother in death’s embrace.