#complex father/child dynamics my beloved

[eld-red]

spy was so afraid of irreversibly fucking up both his kids, he did something that irreversibly fucked up both his kids,

[anghraine]

wind-sage replied to this post:

it is a really fun compare and contrast between Leia I am FULLY an Organa and Luke I am a Skywalker. Neither is Wrong, just important to respect the others choice with it.

Yes, I agree! Their experiences and identities wrt the family members who raised them are often framed as equivalent, but in the OT, they really do seem to relate to each of their families in very different ways.

Leia is not indifferent to her biological parents; she has a tie to Padmé through the Force that lingers with her and matters to her, and it's very upsetting for Leia to find out her natural father is Darth Vader. But the Organas are no less her parents for that. To Leia, "my father" means Bail Organa as much as it invariably means Anakin Skywalker to Luke. She is Bail and Breha's daughter and heir in every way that matters, the princess of Alderaan to her fingertips. Even her blood relationship to Luke only reinforces the close friendship that already exists between them, and would probably matter much less to her without the pre-existing relationship and accompanying Force bond.

But all suggestion in the OT is that Luke was raised as a beloved nephew with his father's and grandmother's name, not a son in the way Leia is a daughter. And it's a potentially dangerous name, at that, which only reinforces the importance in that family situation of honoring Anakin and Shmi in how Luke was brought up to think of himself. Luke's powerful consciousness of himself as Anakin's son doesn't seem just his own thing or conflict at all with how Owen and Beru talk about Luke's tie to Anakin, but rather, reflects it— they say "your father" or "his father" to refer to Anakin and are extremely aware of Luke's legacy from Anakin (and presumably Shmi).

The fostering of a relative's child within the family can often be complex in that way, even IRL, so this isn't even improbable. And given that Owen is Luke's uncle because Owen's father bought and then freed and married Luke's grandmother who died horribly later on, it's not surprising that they would have qualms about erasing the Skywalker history or that the general family dynamic might be a bit more fraught. Luke pretty emphatically does not see Beru as his mother, despite his affection for her; he refers to Padmé as Leia's "real mother" and adds "I have no memory of my mother. I never knew her"—clearly he can only mean Padmé. It seems to me that he's digging for information about Padmé because her absence represents a different kind of loss for him than it does for Leia herself.

And yeah, I could see the disparity in their experiences being something they have to navigate later on, but ultimately the only way to fully reconcile that, IMO, is for them to realize that their family dynamics and sense of legacy were fundamentally not the same and they're not going to relate to their parents the same ways.

[texanmarcusdavenport]

It can be tempting to assume that Adam & Chase's dynamic is meant to mirror Donald & Douglas respectively, but Erm actually 🤓☝️ upon closer examination it seems more likely that Chase is actually Donald's parallel, while Adam and Bree are more like Douglas.

We don't have many clues as to what Donald & Douglas' dynamic was pre-show/growing up, but from what we do know, Douglas was the (self-proclaimed) better programmer, who regularly "beat Donald up" until Donald made a robot to defend himself. They developed the bionic chips together, but Douglas is the one who adapted them for human use (despite having dropped out of med school!) and Donald didn't really understand these modified chips despite presumably studying them for 15+ years, so clearly Douglas is more skilled in that area as well.

My theory: growing up Donald & Douglas were always compared to each other. Douglas was superior physically, either because he was older (*cough*likeAdam*cough*) or not, & possibly considered intellectually superior as well. Obviously, Donald developed a bit of an inferiority complex from this. However, I think Douglas was at least subconsciously jealous of Donald as well, perhaps because he was their parents' favorite (as he was probably the more well-behaved, level-headed, business-minded sibling). (Maybe that's what Douglas meant by that line in "Avalanche" --"I know what it's like to have a sibling that always steals the spotlight & never gives you the credit you deserve").

Now, compare this to Adam, Bree, & Chase's dynamic. Adam and Bree are physically stronger than Chase and they have, even jokingly, been viewed as superior to Chase in terms of looks, social skills, abilities, etc. for years. The (physical) power imbalance is more pronounced with Adam bc Disney is just like that with brothers, but it's still definitely there with Bree, and it's one that Donald not only recognizes but encourages ("Brother Battle").

I've always thought that was odd considering Donald was supposedly also the weak, nerdy one in his family. But then I remembered that in canon, Adam & Bree consider Chase to be Donald's favorite. While I don't think that that's necessarily true, I do think that Chase is the child that Donald finds the most relatable--which, if my interpretation of his & Douglas' relationship is correct, explains so much.

Donald encourages this power imbalance between Adam, Bree, & Chase because he sees himself in Chase. He wants Chase to learn how to fight back and handle his own problems the same way he did. It's obviously misguided since this dynamic between himself and Douglas is what caused this whole mess, but maybe he genuinely believes it. Maybe he even favors Chase in an attempt to make up for this disparity.

I don't think that even the characters themselves realize this--that's why Douglas tries to relate to Chase in "Avalanche" the way he does. Douglas sees himself as the victim in his & Donald's relationship, and Chase is clearly the victim here, so therefore they must be alike, right?

But really Chase is Donald's mirror: the rule-following, arrogant golden child and youngest son, most beloved by his parent(s), who still feels overshadowed by his more talented older sibling(s).

And Adam & Bree are their father's children: impulsive, jealous, free-spirited older sibling(s) beloved by all but still overlooked by their parent(s) in favor of their more conventional younger brother.

[thevulturesquadron]

Potential explanation as to why Erik went from having a strained relationship with Wanda to Pietro despite getting along reasonably better with the latter:

Wanda subconsciously/intentionally made it that way.

Writers try to paint Pietro as the only one with mental instability, but Wanda very clearly has a history of her own issues that show she is not nearly the more sane and emotionally mature twin she is recently made out to be.

In my opinion, despite Wanda occasionally making a show of demonstrating how she does not need Pietro as much as he needs her, and how much she hated Magneto for all that he put them through, I think there was a part of her deep inside that was envious of how Erik and Pietro made efforts to get along better and strengthen their relationship.

I know that writing wise, the editorial and writers have their own reasons for making the choices I don’t agree with, but here’s my take.

Wanda subconsciously hexed both her and her twin so that their blood ties with Magneto would be severed because she couldn’t stand how Pietro was always willing to try to make things work with the latter because he was their “father.”

Because the familial relationship was gone and now she and Pietro were “no longer” mutants, it became easier to subconsciously manipulate her brother’s mind and Magneto’s against each other so that they would appear in their lives less.

Oh, but relationships/hex doesn’t easily create/destroy. It relocates and replaces. So where does that father/child bond now go?

It goes to her. Because despite resenting him for the majority of knowing him, I think there was a part of Wanda that did want that emotional connection with him. But instead of bringing herself to forgive him and easing up on her pride, it was easier to switch her antagonistic relationship with her father’s with that of her “beloved” brother’s to elevate herself up and bring her brother down.

Again, not consciously on her part, and definitely not intentional on that of the writers, but given Wanda’s track record of handling her emotional repressions and outbursts, that would make more sense as to why the dynamic has changed.

I.LOVE.THIS!!! I love this and ever since it landed in my asks my mind has been here.

I am a sucker for finding explanations/reason in things that don’t work or make little sense in what I am watching/reading/playing. I am a sucker for analyzing character’s choices or behaviors even if they are something I don’t agree with. And this!! Honestly I just want your interpretation to be out there because it’s so complex and tasteful.

Wanda has a HISTORY of emotional instability and I say that not as a complaint but in a way that acknowledges the complexity her character can have. It has been a bit of a frustration of mine in how Marvel has handled her in recent years (either as a villain in Dr Strange or infantilizing her in comics). I hated that they took away her agency and responsibility for the events in House of M and redconned it as Doom’s doing. I hate how they portrayed her ‘sacrifice’ in the Trials of Magneto because it was cheap and void of meaning for her redemption. Marvel stripped her of the importance of her emotions and chaos; took away the responsibility of her rage and the consequences of her unstable emotions because she needed to be pure and good, effectively telling women that your raw emotions are evil and only villains can own them. Fuck that noise! Her powers are chaos! Let her mind and feelings claim that as well, and let her explore that instead of forcing her into a maturity and wisdom she has never earned. 

Once again, I love what you're proposing. It justifies so many of the weird exchanges, it adds layers to her and it has a fantastic potential to explore some strong themes.

[isfjmel-phleg]

August 2024 Books

Little Women by Louisa May Alcott (reread)

Reread in preparation for a visit to Orchard House.

Finch House by Ciera Burch

I read this one in its entirety on the plane. An atmospheric and heartfelt example of the middle-grade spooky-mysterious-house subgenre that I find myself drawn to over and over, but I was left with some unanswered questions in the end that could have been more thoroughly resolved.

The War That Saved My Life by Kimberly Brubraker Bradley

I wanted to like this one more than I did, but there were some content concerns for me. Similar thematically in some ways to Good Night, Mr. Tom, but takes the POV of the evacuee child rather than that of the adult who takes them in.

The Pinballs by Betsy Byars

A slight book but featured the development of a very genuine bond among three mismatched foster children with a variety of painful histories, which made it memorable.

Louisa May Alcott: A Personal Biography by Susan Cheever

Found among my library's collection and read as part of my pre-Orchard House research. Cheever tends to get a bit too swept up in setting the broader historical scene to get too close to her subject, which felt unfocused to me.

Fox Farm by Eileen Dunlop

Ostensibly about caring for an abandoned young fox but in fact about a boy with abandonment issues learning to bond with his foster family. Dunlop (in other works as well as this one) writes complex family dynamics well, and I enjoyed this one.

The Treasure Bird by Peni R. Griffin

Clever middle-grade mystery set around San Antonio (an area I've visited a lot, which made it extra fun for me).

The Lion of Lark-Hayes Manor by Aubrey Hartman

Middle-grade intrusive fantasy. I'm trying to remember why it didn't do much for me. It was probably characters or themes.

Final Word by Janet Sumner Johnson

I enjoyed this one more than I expected to. The mystery and spelling bee aspects were fun, but I really liked the exploration of the family dynamics and how the protagonists' assumptions about the rich relatives who have been absent from her struggling family's life (including her late father) are challenged and complicated. Also lots of Jane Austen references. The father and his siblings are all named for Austen characters, etc.

Drowned Amnet by Diana Wynne Jones

I'm not completely sure how I feel about the Dalemark series so far, but Jones as ever has a gift for striking characters and worldbuilding and Twists.

Marmee and Louisa: The Untold Story of Louisa May Alcott and Her Mother by Eve LaPlante

A descendant of Abigail May Alcott's family writes with an emphasis on Abigail's background, character, and accomplishments, and I came away with a new appreciation for her and her impact on her daughters (and, indirectly, through her inspiring one of the most beloved mother figures in literature).

Eden's Outcasts: The Story of Louisa May Alcott and Her Father by John Matteson

On the other hand, I would like to go back in time and fist-fight Bronson Alcott, but he would probably just lecture me on my moral failings.

The Curious Vanishing of Beatrice Willoughby by G. Z. Schmidt

Interesting premise but I didn't warm up to the execution.

Ivy Larkin by Mary Stolz

I didn't warm up to this but can't remember why.

Comics

Wayne Family Adventures Volume 4

Read originally in webcomic form but reread in the print edition.

[moonshynecybin]

the marc-max dynamic is so rich to me not in a ship way but just that they’re both red bull boy athletes child phenoms who came in and defeated the godlike reigning champions of their respective sports

any thoughts on their similarities and differences?

okay i do need a disclaimer that i am not an F1 scholar by any means i simply enjoy it very casually adn see my lovely mutuals post about it :) like i got into it bc my very offline best friend has loved max forever hes like my most beloved blorbo in law <3. daniel ricciardo is my babygirl though i love his ass. so dont throw rocks at meee

so for in terms of their similarities.... ive talked a little bit about the inherent ego that is tied to racing at the level these guys race at, adn max is definitely in that same vein. he's confident! super sweet off track but in the heat of the race knows when he has to prioritize himself and is not apologetic about it in the least. thats how you win. and thats where him and marc often get into trouble with the media lol (though marc is better at withholding, max will mostly just. say it. king.). but i also think theres a conversation to be had about how any single person in the conversation for GOAT in their respective sport has to be at least mildly crazy in terms of how they relate to their jobs. like obsessive religious devotion from young childhood in many ways.... for vehicular death sport more than mildly methinks. so one fun thing is that whenever they meet they can kind of talk to each other about racing in circles forever bc they love it :) freak4freak friendship where they relate to each other bc their sports are in conversation but not competition with each other, which makes the convo more fun! and it means they can literally just sit there and explain racing to someone who understands what its like to be a too-young protege champion but has enough gaps in their knowledge that a lot of info is mostly new. that must be pretty interesting to them both (especially max who loves that shit lol)

but the thing about max (and again im not a scholar) is that his childhood is so dominated by this complex entanglement between racing and his family and his father and all that mess. marc doesnt really have that same familial trauma tied to this huge polestar of his life (there are other traumas adn other family weirdness with marc but uhhhh this aint about that.) like max absolutely has that dog in him. but i think if he got super injured like marc he wouldnt necessarily do the crazy resilient comeback against all odds like marc did, i think he would retire! and some part of him would be kind of quietly relieved that he can let it go without disappointing anyone and then he'd go on the sim 8 hours a day adn be pretty happy. in a way marc absolutely would not be. but again i am no expert!!

[wildannise]

About Hazelwood Hollow

I'm a queer artist. I've posted previously mostly on Instagram, as @ witchhazel_draws, but I'm becoming more and more invested in finding alt platforms to post on. I don't really share about myself or my life much - I value my privacy and the privacy of my loved ones. So the main thing I post about is artwork for a fantasy story I'm writing, so I thought I'd share about that.

The story is tentatively called Hazelwood Hollow and is mostly inspired by period films I watched as a child, particularly Jane Austen films, Charles Dickens miniseries, the original Newsies film, and an obscure adaptation of les miserables without music.

My story is essentially a bildungsroman/coming of age story set in a pseudo-victorian society with magic and witches. It begins much like David Copperfield with a young amab protagonist who lives isolated in a rural setting with a hated father figure and a beloved mother, and ends up as a child laborer in a city factory - but after hitting rock bottom the young protagonist comes out as a trans woman and names herself Artemis and moves to a cottage in the country with a group of witches and becomes a cottagecore lesbian. The only catch is that magic is pointlessly gendered in this society and "boys" aren't allowed to be witches. And people from Artemis's childhood who have become powerful in this society are intent on finding her, and so harsh reality breaks in on this idyllic fantasy. She and he found family seek shelter among a colony of witch witch outlaws and pirates who are plotting a revolution against the largely non- magic government.

The story is very interested in exploring how power dynamics exists within societies and how even literal witches with magic powers could be held back by unfair power dynamics on a broad social level. A big aspect of the premise is "what if witch hunters stopped trying to hunt down and kill witches and instead exploited them for their labor?" The story is also about how gender is constructed and enforced, and why gendered magic systems are flawed and unrealistic.

A big piece of lore within the story is the history and origin of two alchemical metals that the non magic government uses to regulate witches: witch-silver that can be used to make potent magic weapons originally used to hunt down witches, and witch-iron that negates magic in its vicinity and can permanently strip a witch of magic, used to hold witch prisoners (though it is witches who work for the goverment who actually capture witch criminals these days). These 2 metals are not just useful to the heirarchy, they are central to cultural ideologies. They are considered to represent the masculine and feminine energies of the universe itself and be the basis for all matter.

Magic is coded as feminine in this universe and regarded as submitting to the raw powers of nature - a thing considered dangerous and leading easily to corruption. The common belief is that "men" are naturally without magic so that they can guide, control, and contain the wild and corruptible magic of "women." In truth, magic is simply rarer in male identifying people, but this is only true since witch iron was discovered a few thousand years ago - due to complex factors that are explored in the story. And all magic is rarer since then in general, too. But magic can be found in any gender and cultivated to a potent level in most people who show interest in it. All of which are things the rebels in the story explore and discuss and which drives them to rebel against the powers that be. My protagonist gets caught up on it all and comes to have a more complex and nuanced understanding of the world, but one that drives them to also become a revolutionary alongside them.

Here's some art of Artemis, who becomes a potion witch after coming out as trans.

And here's her love interest and eventual partner, Juniper Gardner, a plant witch. And here's also the cottage they live in with Juniper's older sister and a couple others.

The cottage is called Hazelwood Hollow (HH), which is where the name of the story comes from. For much of the later story Artemis sees HH as the ultimate goal: the opportunity to get back to her idyllic life that she had before... with everything going back to the way things were. But by the end of the story she becomes less invested in the actual cottage and more invested in the community and sense of belonging she found there and wishes to bring that kind of happiness to all members of society - esp when the revolution proves less effective in the long run, she and her partner and found family use their cottage and resources to support trans youth and witches in societies that are still hostile to magic.

[edwinspaynes]

Matthew, Alastair, and the Self vs the Other

I cannot for the life of me understand how people justify hating either Matthew or Alastair on behalf of the other. Like. Both of these characters are so beloved to me. They're easily two of my favourite fictional characters, and I'm not just talking about in TSC. I adore them, and I adore their complexities. As such, I feel that I am the appropriate person to write this essay.

(You can also expect another essay in the coming week that juxtaposes Matthew and Alastair's storylines as literary foils. The aim of this essay is not to understand their written characters, but to understand their dynamic as human beings).

Listen.

Shadowhunter Academy

At the Academy, Alastair behaved in a pretty homophobic way to Matthew, who was visibly not straight (and proud of it). It's worth noting that Alastair began the conflict here, with these statements. The stuff about Wilde being indecent was their first encounter, and he 100% perpetuated it again later with "what a fine wife you'll make for someone one of these days." The impact of this hurts Matthew regardless of the fact that Alastair was also gay. Matthew didn't know this at the time, and even if he had, it would have been unfair for Alastair to turn his own internalized homophobia on Matthew.

However, Alastair's statements are also understandable. Being gay in the late 1800s wasn't a walk in the park, and Alastair was likely having it consistently reinforced as shameful by Charles at this point. He was 15. He also was very clearly following the Wilde trials, which would have been terrifying for him.

Matthew is also a defensive person, and James was being consistently bullied by Alastair. I understand him coming to the defense of his friend. I get that. But he did, in the end, come at Alastair WAY too hard when he said that his father didn't love him. It's worth noting that Matthew didn't know the situation between Alastair and Elias, and he just groped around for fodder and accidentally hit something that hurt. But, like the Wilde stuff, that doesn't matter. The impact on Alastair was real and painful.

Onto the rumor stuff, the things that Alastair said about Gideon and Charlotte were inexcusable. Place this in a historical context. Charlotte is a woman, and one who's constantly questioned in her position of power. This rumor could have legitimately ruined her and the entire Fairchild family. I do not believe Alastair thought this through, but once again, the impact was there. This is a theme throughout their relationship.

Alastair, who is obviously extremely traumatized, was completely in the wrong for saying those things. 0 argument.

Matthew, who is obviously very mentally ill, was VERY MUCH in the wrong to blow up Alastair's things. 0 argument.

There's also an argument to be made that Alastair had no choice but to be a bully. I believe this. I fully understand him. He DID have no choice, and he deserves sympathy and compassion and forgiveness. I believe this unequivocally. No child- no human- deserves to be subject to the abuse that Alastair was at home and at school, and no 13-15 year old would have made a different choice.

But, at the same time, Alastair did not have to hit Matthew where it hurt like that. He could have stuck to the way he bullied Thomas, with periodic cutting barbs. That's also true.

Matthew's Great Sin

Fast forward a couple of years.

The only person to blame for Charlotte's miscarriage is Mother Hawthorne, an adult who used Matthew as a tool for attempted assassination. Full stop. The ONLY person. That's my preface.

Alastair is in no way to blame for Charlotte's miscarriage. Like, at all. I'm not even sure that he, to this day, knows what happened. This is indisputable. Alastair is, I would argue, unrelated to the reality of the situation.

Everyone reasonable can see this. Matthew himself is reasonable. Matthew himself knows this and has thought as much:

It was not the faerie woman’s fault, or Alastair’s, or the fault of any other soul. He was the one who had chosen to distrust his mother. He had fed his mother poison with his own hands. He was not a fool. He was a villain.

Of course, I disagree with Matthew's thoughts on Mother Hawthorne. I also disagree with his thoughts on his own culpability, but I'm getting there. My current point is that Matthew knows, immediately, that Alastair is not to blame.

However, the person that he chooses to blame is himself.

Matthew, prior to this event, already had incredibly low self-worth. Two clear examples:

“You may be a waste of space in a waistcoat,” he told Matthew Fairchild, “but at least your waistcoat is fantastic.”

He was sure that if he had not asked James to be parabatai, James would never have thought of asking him.

As a result of this unbearable pain, Alastair becomes something of a scapegoat for Matthew. He hates himself and treats himself poorly; he shoves off some of that self-hate onto Alastair, his literary foil (again, wait for that essay). The alternative is unbearable. In Matthew's eyes, he is a villain, and he needs to make a new villain.

Matthew already has understandable problems with Alastair. Alastair is the one that triggered Matthew's insecurities. Despite having nothing to do with the miscarriage, he makes for a fine scapegoat.

And, over time, Alastair is no longer Alastair to Matthew. Alastair is simply a concept that he has created, flanderized, and made into some untouchable and inhuman evil spectre.

Alastair's Return to London

By the time that Alastair returns to London, Matthew's hate for both himself and for Alastair are solidified. Carved in stone. Matthew is not equipped to face Alastair.

Alastair does not fully understand why Matthew hates him. This is incredibly understandable. There's no other way this could have gone, because Alastair is a person, and he is a person that knows nothing of the conceptual caricature that Matthew has cast him as.

So he apologizes, and he apologizes, and he apologizes. He does everything right, and I would argue that Alastair's in the clear for his past actions by the end of ChoG. (Not to the Thieves, but to a reasonable reader/outsider).

Alastair is, at this point, just some man that the main cast has beef with. He's a good guy. He's done his due diligence and apologized. They should, in both Alastair's mind and many readers', be good now.

Unfortunately, Matthew is not a reasonable reader or outsider. Matthew is a real person who was directly impacted by Alastair's actions at the Academy, which almost certainly led to some of his self-worth problems. He also incorrectly has essentially gaslit himself into thinking that his mother's poisoning is another way that Alastair has victimized him.

At this point, I will say that I personally believe Matthew to be bipolar. If he is not bipolar, he may have borderline personality disorder. This is unconfirmed, but there is a lot of evidence in the text. I could write an essay on this as well as someone who also is bipolar. What he does with Alastair- and later with Cordelia- is something called splitting. A person is either an evil and worthless villain or they are a goddess incarnate (respectively). There is no gray area.

In any case,

To Matthew, Alastair's constant apologies and lack of awareness about the impact he had appear dismissive.

Thomas frowned. “Matthew,” he said, his usually gentle voice remonstrative, “that was the past. It is time for us to be adults and forget childish slights.” “Thomas, you are kind,” said Matthew. “Too kind, and you wish to forget. But I am not kind, and I cannot help but remember.”

Thomas is too forgiving; Alastair has not, in Matthew's mind, sufficiently apologized for the imagined but simultaneously legitimate transgression. He must do so. Alastair must hurt as Matthew has, and he does not consider that he is engaging with an actual human being who only has one friend that he is about to destroy his relationship with.

Note that this is once again consistent with Matthew's characterization as protective of his friends. In his mind, he is saving Thomas from the abusive concept of Alastair. His being incorrect and that image not being an accurate representation of the man himself do not matter to Matthew's motivations.

At this point, though, Alastair is also unfortunately extremely triggered by Matthew's drinking. This is clear in ChoG when Alastair says,

Alastair’s expression went flat. “You think I would be relieved to hear she’s with Matthew? You think I don’t know a drunk when I see one? Believe me, I do. If he puts Cordelia in harm’s way—”

Not great, especially considering that Alastair has spent his entire life trying to protect Cordelia from a drunk:

Because he’s always bloody drunk, Cordelia. The only one of us who didn’t know that is you. [...] I wanted you to have a childhood, a thing I never had. I wanted you to be able to love and respect your father as I never could. [...] Who learned at ten years old to refill the brandy bottles with water each morning so no one would notice the levels had sunk?"

Alastair is correct. This is more than understandable. Matthew is, in that moment, taking Cordelia to a scandalous nightclub; he will, in a few months' time, impulsively run away with Cordelia to another country.

This conflict persists in much the same way throughout Chain of Iron, with Alastair getting more and more irritated that his apologies are going unheard and Matthew getting pissier and pissier that Alastair cannot conceptualize Matthew's rage.

I'll talk more about this in my Literary Foils essay, but:

It is only through self-acceptance that Matthew learns to forgive Alastair and, once again, view him as Alastair the Man rather than Alastair the Concept.

It is only through self-acceptance that Alastair is able to see Matthew as Matthew the Man rather than Matthew the Drunk that reminds him of Elias.

In the end, their budding friendship is only possible because they have done the work to better themselves.

[gladiatorcunt]

complex and ultimately codependent father-child dynamics that either end in death of the characters or the relationship in media my beloved

[helenaredamancy]

Do you mind if I ask your top 10 favorite characters (can be male or female) from all of the media that you loved (can be anime/manga, books, movies or tv series)? And why do you love them? Sorry if you've answered this question before.....Thanks....

thank you for this question! hmmm i think i'll have to do a top 5 because a top 10 would be wayyy too long and i'll do my best NOT put down 'i relate to them' as a reason for why i love them! the characters aren't in any particular order or rank :)

enjolras from les miserables [book].. this character has been rattling around in my brain for years. he's the revolution incarnate, but his driving force is love. he's described as impossibly beautiful but that's the least memorable part of his character. he can seem cold and terrifying but he's still so obviously young (literally getting compared to a flower by his executioners), relies on and respects his friends, and is so deeply affected by what he has to do. 'the marble lover of liberty' is such a perfect encapsulation of him- fighting, living, and dying for a future he knows he won't ever get to see because of this love is nuts to me. he'll stain himself by committing acts that he knows sentences him to death and punishment even if he'd survived, all for a better future. him telling his fellow revolutionaries and friends that 'he who dies here dies in the radiance of the future, and we are entering a tomb all flooded with the dawn' kind of did something to my brain (keeping in mind he's said the future belongs to love).

marvin and jason from falsettos [musical] :)) there's no way to mention one without the other, and so i've just put them together. i love them because of their dynamic to each other- for context, they're father/son marvin is jason's father, and initially, he's neurotic, self-obsessed, immature, and egotistical. he's incredibly sympathetic the entire way through somehow. he loves his family, he hates that he wants his family to love him, he loves his son, he feels sorry his son resembles him. he tells jason he never wanted to love him. he loves him. his character arc is essentially him growing to become the father jason deserves. for most of the show, jason is disgusted by his father, and he feels that his resemblance to his father is to blame for every negative aspect about him. he's terrified of becoming his father. he says he hates the world but loves his father, he loves the things he never had. marvin thinks jason hates and adores him. but as his father matures and holds himself responsible, by the end of the show, jason is proud that he looks like marvin. i've tried (badly) to explain kinda briefly w/o spoiling the show's plot but essentially! super complex, flawed, but lovable characters who answer the show's initial question of what this family would do for each other even if they wouldn't admit it

paloma from the elegance of the hedgehog [book]! the very distinct and sharp but still childish voice is so delightful and poignant to read.. she's an incredibly intelligent and sarcastic girl, she thinks a lot about the world and she thinks she knows everything there is to know. but no matter how cynical she seems, she is ultimately still a child who craves and responds to kindness, love, and beauty

eurydice (and NYTW hadestown's orpheus too but this post isn't about him) (specifically, eurydice from ruhl's play) ! basically every iteration of orpheus and eurydice all put together has made me adore them. i'm obsessed with the idea that no matter which version of the myth you read, the reason for orpheus turning around is out of love one way or another, with his love compelling him to turn. but ruhl's eurydice is special to me bc i find eurydice's characterization so interesting. classically, orpheus's big act of love is that entire journey to try and bring her back- but eurydice's act of love is more elusive. she's the beloved in their story, but ruhl's eurydice flips the roles and it's genuinely moving to see how much love is held in their one myth.

i'm sorry this writeup is super messy! there are so many characters i adore so much but these are some of my favorite and the ones that popped into my mind when i saw this question.

[bookwyrminspiration]

okay alright. onto uhhHHHH. DO i have thoughts about it. AM i coherent. here for now until my brain reboots (i was looking up paper girls trailers like WAS this show actually good for like ten minutes and it threw me off)--this shall be an all over the place ask by the way--: jorat is SO INTERESTING i am FOAMING AT THE MOUTH. CHOMPING AT THE BIT TO GET ENOUGH DETAILS ABOUT THIS COUNTRY TO ANALYZE THE EVERYTHING. the respect for the horses!!! FIREBLOODS!!!! their honor code (and all the ways that the antagonists continue to perform offenses against it)!!!! the environment!!! the SKIN MARKINGS!!!! just GRAHHHHH. AND THEY HAVE AN ENTIRE TRANS FESTIVAL. obviously the country is not w/o its prejudices (read: the giant ass xenophobia signs and also the assholes that are oreth's family regardless of who owns who) but it is so interesting to just!!! just the everything it's just everything. the things of idorra and thorra and mares and stallions and the respect you give to people and how everything is based on the herd mindset: what you protect, you own, and all that.

ALSO- STAR! OF CO U R S E HE'S DORNA'S CHILD LMAO. oh man. sad i don't get to see him as a main character taking up more space right now but also yk janel very much takes up the role of that specific kind of character... OH AND! kihrin understanding the gender thing, associating it back with his own culture, when janel finds out who father zajhera was.... What a Scene. i find myself comparing it to jess and morgan sometimes and then other times not... very similar character shapes, but the dynamic is shifted to the left.

Literally! I heard about Jorat and immediately went I need to know everything ever about this country. I love that it's not perfect. It both has these lovely beliefs about gender and has questionable practices alongside that. I made a shitpost about the inclusive misogyny--because it's still a divided country based on gender, it's your internal gender identity that matters, not your physical sex. Which!! Is a fascinating idea!

There is a place in fiction for idyllic, escapist places, but sometimes you want to explore something imperfect but different. To have something interesting and new to question and think through and explore. Jorat wasn't made to be a fantasy it was made to be a place in a fantasy, you know? And places aren't perfect. Jorat is both victim of being misunderstood and disrespected and perpetrator of strict rules and xenophobia against the other countries' ways of life.

and the festival of turning leaves!! in exchange for some community service for a while Galava will literally change your physical sex for you, and not only does this exist but it's cherished. It is a valued and beloved festival amongst the joratese. Jorat I love you. Not in spite of your imperfections, but because of them. Because you are not a perfect place you are a real place with real problems and complexity. Even though I don't want to participate in the idorra/thudaje system it's so fun to ponder

Also shout out to Star! what a fun character even if he's not around very much. Janel does absolutely take up the genderqueer character mantel valiantly, but I wouldn't have complained about having another. Though their are some discussions of gender to do with other characters (specifically Tereath).

it's hard to conceptualize that Father Zajhera scene at first (at least for me) because like...we've just met Janel fully, but thinking back. Holy FUCK. Imagine. The man who saved you and personally attended to you for YEARS after a horribly traumatic incident. a kindly mentor who literally treated your MIND. and he turns out to be RELOS VAR??? that is fucked beyond belief my god...would be very curious to hear more about this jess/morgan comparison though!

[eld-red]

i GUESS i need to make an intro post or something now

hi! i have this blog and i also have @i-loathelucy which is a silly little tf2 oc ask blog. i’ll also probably post fic updates? on there and on here!!

he/they. im trans and i got my name from gregory peck (“but eldred isnt his first name literally gregory”) gregory was his middle name. so i have an old dead person name and i have that going for me.

the rot that has consumed me occasionally changes but i love tf2!! fran bow and bioshock are two other games i love. AND I LOVE STAR FOX!!! i am also a huge fan of L.A. noire. i have lost count of the amount of times i’ve watched bojack horseman

i also really love will wood (and by extension the prescription), the decemberists (by extension the wildwood chronicles), and i am a huge liv rodrigo fan :) i try to read.

sniper tf2 my beloved i trust him with my LIFE and he may have a plan to kill everyone he meets but if i break his trust and he has to use that plan that is on me. sibling dynamics and complex father/child dynamics my beloved.

i am silly. i also really like rats. anyways i need to do [SOME REFERENCE TO COLLEGE] goodnight!

[imakemywings]

Arcane S2 thoughts

Arcane season 1 was a breakout show. I didn't know anything about League of Legends when I started it, but I was blown away by the animation and drawn into the world and the complex character dynamics it established. It ended on a massive cliffhanger three years ago, and I've been waiting since to see how it would all resolve.

And y'all, it's a disappointment.

It seems Riot could not follow through on what they set up in S1. As I think is not uncommon in follow-up seasons, they added too many new plotlines to satisfactorily draw them all to a close, which meant we were left with glaring holes in the plot and character motivations that made little sense. They abandoned the heart of the show--Jinx and Vi's relationship--to focus on other things and set themselves up for a new spin-off show set in Noxus, Mel's homeland.

Some spoilers in the full review below.

Mel has always been my favorite Arcane character, and while she got some time to shine this season, she also was mostly a tool to lay the ground for the Noxus spin-off. A great brouhaha is made about Mel's parentage, and she's apparently being hunted by a dangerous group of mages known as the Black Rose, but none of this gets resolved within the show. We never find out who Mel's father is that makes her so interesting to the Black Rose, we never find out what Ambessa did to get the Black Rose on her back, we never really find out what happened to Mel's brother��Kino except that it had something to do with the Black Rose (and Ambessa claims she was obligated to let Kino die to save Mel?), we never find out the identity of the mage contacting Mel or what they actually want from her. All of this, presumably, will be addressed in the Noxus spin-off show.

This is something I really hate. I'm here to watch Arcane, not get an advertisement for your studio's next show. I hate it when it feels like one media is already trying to sell you on another. I don't care about the Noxus spinoff (which I would have been excited for before they fumbled Arcane S2 so badly), I care about Arcane, which is what I'm watching.

Because so few questions about the Black Rose are answered, it makes Ambessa's motivations murky as well. She's set up as the big bad of S2, but without clarity of goals beyond "find a good weapon to fight the Black Rose." When Mel makes her argument that if Ambessa backs down, Mel will return to Noxus with her and they can fight the Black Rose together, it's difficult to understand why or believe that Ambessa refuses this offer in favor of continuing to wage war on Piltover. It's also very unclear what Ambessa's plan is. We're led to believe she's a cunning general, but then the show makes her thought process so hazy.

I would have also liked her to be a more three-dimensional villain. It's not a secret that I've loved Ambessa since she was introduced, and I was excited to hear she was playing a role in S2 even as an antagonist, but where in S1 the show put thought and nuance into her character--the moment where she cries out that she had to send Mel away because Mel "weakened" her is one that lives in my brain--this season she mostly just plays the warmonger.

She has virtually no reaction to Mel's kidnapping and disappearance, and barely a response to Mel's return. Mel, who has been so central to Ambessa's character and motivations up to this point! Ambessa who has already lost one beloved child! If her grief for Mel had driven her harshness with Piltover, that would have made sense! But it's not addressed; watching Ambessa, you'd never know anything had happened to Mel at all. The vulnerability she showed with Mel in S1 when Mel presses her is completely gone, for seemingly no reason.

And that's a theme throughout this season. The show is simply juggling so many things it doesn't have time to address consequences or outcomes. Jayce and Mel's relationship suffers similarly. Neither of them has any real reaction to what happens to the other, and their reunion is characterized by bizarre accusations by Jayce that Mel manipulated him in S1. He gives her a half-assed apology after this outburst and they never speak again.

But where they dropped the ball the most, in my view, was with Jinx (speaking of no consequences). So much of S1 was devoted to showing how unstable and unreliable and dangerous Jinx is, all of which is gone by S2; she has been completely defanged. The Jinx of S1 who laughed while she shot people and flew into a rage at the mere thought that Vi might have any other person in her life is replaced with a kind of mopey but harmlessly quirky Jinx whose tricks are more like pranks and whose anger is nonexistent.

Jinx ended S1 by shooting her father figure during a paranoid break and launching a missile at the center of Piltover's government because she was upset that Vi had a life outside of her. These events play no impact on her character in S2. Sure she seems a little lost starting S2, but the king of  unhinged grief I would have expected to see from her after she killed Silco is nowhere to be seen. Her team-up with Sevika is also poorly-explained, given how much they hated each other in S1 and that Jinx (who Sevika consistently called out as dangerous and unreliable in S1) is responsible for the death of Sevika's boss, a man she believed in (right or wrong).

Much of her character development is sped along and outsourced to a plot device called Isha, a child dumped in her lap who the show is obviously so desperate for us to find cute and loveable that I was just irritated whenever she was onscreen. Isha is implied to be mute, and while normally I would applaud the inclusion of more disabled characters, the way this plays out ensures we learn nothing about Isha as a person--not about her backstory, or her personality (besides "cute"), or her opinions, because none of that matters. She exists to engender sympathy in the viewers towards Jinx.

Comparatively, almost no time is spend on Jinx's relationship with Vi, a relationship still billed as the core of the show. They have one good fight scene, and zero real reconciliation. They're forced to team up and this just washes away the bad blood; they never discuss what happened last season--where Jinx kidnapped Vi and Caitlyn, and believably threatened to kill them both, and killed a good half the council in a fit. Just like that, the central conflict of the story is hand-waved, and never really addressed again.

Similarly, the conflict between Zaun and Piltover takes a backseat to teaming up against Ambessa and her Noxian army. The end of the show implies Zaun has a seat on the council--which also implies they have not gotten their independence, something the council was ready to approve at the end of S1.

The final arc of the show focuses so heavily on Viktor and Jayce's relationship you'd be forgiven for thinking the show was about them. Little to say about this except that I found it uninteresting.

The denouement is almost nonexistent due to the rush and clutter of the rest of the show. We never find out exactly where Piltover and Zaun settle. We have no idea what Ekko is doing. No explanation about Mel apparently leaving the council and the city she helped build. A quick CaitVi scene which is not really rife with affection (and of course, Caitlyn's role in the events of the season is barely addressed at all by Vi). It was an incredibly unsatisfying final sequence the served mainly to drive home that our focus should now be on the Noxus spinoff.

On the whole, I'm incredibly disappointed. Maybe time will change this view, but I had high hopes for this show after the first season and this one feels like such a letdown. I will not be watching the Noxus spinoff now; it doesn't feel like it will be worth my time.

[the-tzarina-alexandra-paracosm]

Vote based on the design AND the backstory

Annette

(The Choice to Love - 2017-2018)

Role: side character

She was Ernest's nanny/ governess when he was a child, and nowadays is more of a mother figure to him than his biological mother. She is a very sweet and mature elderly woman, and loves to encourage others. She rarely talks of her past, because it's tragic and traumatic, namely she fled French because of the revolution (the 1789-1793 one) despite not being upper class, because her husband got executed in the reign of terror.

Vs

Prosya

(The Land of Eternal Winter - 2019-2020)

Role: side character

She is a housewife, but she doesn't have any children (the reasons being a spoiler). She is generally very content with her life, and she is very pleased with all the creative skills she built over the years. She is a very voracious reader, and an up and coming writer. She has currently finished her debut novel and will soon get it published through the printing press owned by her favourite writer (she is pretty star struck to meet her in person, and even more so have her work approved by her). Her novel tells the story of a woman who survived the catastrophic war 1000 years prior, and her search for her husband, all the while taking care of her newborn.

Additional info

The Choice to Love - 2017-2018

Status: incomplete (Romanian, English, a few chapters typed, many scenes handwritten, many comic scenes drawn etc, full outline done)

Form: novel

Genre: Victorian romance

Ernest and Jeannine are made to enter an arranged marriage. She is glad because she already had a crush on him, but he feels guilty that he can't force himself to fall in love. Many many many side characters all play a role in, directly or indirectly, imparting life lessons on the protagonists. The side characters also have their own complex dramas and lives. Ernest has a found family dynamic with his household servants, but has some sort of conflict with his family of origin, which gets somewhat solved by the end of the book, but under very dramatic circumstances. Jeannine is always by his side, so he realises hey she means a lot to me.

Vs

The Land of Eternal Winter - 2019-2020

Status: complete (draft 1: English, typed, draft 2 in the works)

Form: novel

Genre: mild steampunk, kinda post apoc but mostly drama (and court drama)

Anatoliy is a prince whose beloved father just died, so he assumes it was an assassination. He suspects the neighbouring king and has him killed, only to later realise he was innocent. He is almost completely overcome by guilt and despair, but ultimately fights to do whatever in his power to not only fix the consequences of his crime, but to also mitigate the effects of the much larger conspiracy at work that he found himself an unwitting pawn in. There are very many side characters, each with their own complex stories, which all tie into the idea that ones desire to change the world may be futile, or even become evil, but we must still strive to do good here on earth despite no rewards in sight. I'd say this is my 2nd "masterpiece" work in terms of writing

[thebirkenstocksocialist]

You have such beautiful insights on parenthood in Young Royals, so I would like to know what do you think about Simon and Linda's relationship? - princesimonsblog

First off thank you, this is so kind of you to say. I've been ruminating on this ask for a while and I'm excited to write about it.

I'm going to write about my observations of Linda and Simon's behavior and what I make of them in the show. What I won't write about is culture since that is out of my wheel house. I would particularly love to hear from some Latine fans if any of ya'll want to share observations and insight about their relationships based on culture, please do!

Overall, I think Simon and Linda's relationship is so beautiful. Linda is the stand out adult in the series. Sure, I have head cannons that the head mistress and of course Boris (my beloved) are cool people, but those are at last mostly in my head.

I think we get to see a lot of Linda, and the woman she is, particularly within her role as Simon and Sara's mother.

We know that Simon has trauma related to his parents. We see that illustrated most clearly when he is alone with his father. As an addict in recovery, who grew up in a household with an alcoholic dad (we are both clean now WOOT), I don't actually know if I have seen a portrayal of active addiction done so well. Like, the humanity and complexity of it? But that's another post.

Anyway, we see how guarded Simon is, the lack of trust, but also how he loves his father. We see moments of hope when he notices his place looks good. And we see the trauma come out when he argues with Sara. In episode six, he defends his mother. He wants to protect her. This is definitely part of Simon's behavior pattern, which Sara is also calling him out on in the scene, but it is part of their mother/son dynamic too I think.

In episode one, Simon is caretaking Sara and his mother as he lies to Linda about getting invited to a party. I take this as him truly believing his mom is a great mom, not wanting her to worry, and providing her some reassurance. I probably view Simon as the "hero" or "perfect child" in the alcoholic family dynamic.

So we know that Linda worked hard to get herself, and her kids, out of a bad situation. There's trauma around that and Simon and Sara have their own feelings there. This is true for pretty much all families? Like, there are struggles and pain and often even trauma - but that doesn't also mean their isn't closeness and safety? Simon's family feels so deeply REAL to me.

But the reason I love Linda, and think that Simon has secure attachment with her, and thus tremendous resilience in the face of the trauma he is facing, is because she is clearly SAFE. She is consistently there for her children. She shows up for them both physically (dropping them off at school, picking them up late, hugs, back rubs, attending parent's lunch, talking to staff and teachers while there, opening her home to Wilhelm, Rosh, and Ayub) and emotionally (offering support and snacks when Simon is hurting, encouraging police reporting, providing unwavering love and support regarding Simon's sexuality). I particularly like how she seems to consistently make room for her children's emotions. I think this is hard to do as a parent? Like, if I was her I would be so enraged about the video. I'd want to tear that school down, you know? But I also think the best action is to follow her son's lead. To truly support a survivor (I believe what happened to Simon and Wilhelm is sexual abuse) is to follow their lead on what they need/want to feel safe. I see Linda do that. Yes, she gently suggests that they go to the police. But there are so many reasons why a person wouldn't want to do that, and wouldn't feel safe.

Another example of her following her children's lead is when Micke shows up at Lucia. She stands firm, no movement on her part, but she looks to Simon and Sara for their lead. In cannon, we have no idea what Micke's behavior was like during Simon and Sara's younger childhood. We do see him behave violently towards Simon, and scare him, in one scene. So I don't really want to speculate about Linda's trauma because it could be a lot of different things. But what I see in this scene is a mother who is trusting her children's voices. Again, very hard to do as a parent. We often want to swoop in and protect. She makes that space for Sara to say her boundary. She doesn't swoop in to protect Simon from the consequences of his secret keeping. And she also doesn't scream and yell and cause a scene that might make the situation harder on both her kids. Honestly, any of the reactions I described would have been reasonable and believable for a mom in her situation. I respect what she did a lot.

I also particularly LOVE what the writers/directors did with Linda and Simon's relationship juxtaposed next to Wilhelm and Kristina. Go re-watch episode 6 with this in mind. We see shifts/cuts from Wilhelm, utterly alone and reeling, to Simon, being touched and comforted by his mother, laughing and surrounded by friends and family when he finds out Wilhelm lied, being touched and checked on by his mother. Obviously, this is done intentionally. As much as it highlights how alone Wilhelm is, I think it also highlights how safe Simon is in his home. Loved and secure. It think this is why the scene where the reporter shows up at his house is so important, and so jarring. His safety has been directly threatened.

And who created that safety? Who shows up for him, protects him, allows him room to grow? Who left an awful situation with an addict partner to protect her kids? Linda. Time and time again we see this woman holding Simon's hand. She isn't perfect, not by any means. But Simon has something that we all want - or are hopefully grateful for if we have it - a parent who not only loves him but actively shows up and parents him. Who works for his best interests and who cares about and SEES who he is as himself. Linda sees Simon as a person, not as a reflection of herself.

Lastly, I love that Linda actively parents her kids. We see this a bit - she tells them to cool it when they are being kids. But maybe the most real, good parenting moment we see, is when she finds the bill from Hillerska. She is (rightfully) pissed and also worried. "HOW Simon?!" - she doesn't know how on earth he thought he would pay for this and he can't tell her. "That's not how it works in the real world", she says, or something similar. I think we see a bit that Linda is disappointed in Simon. Again, very understandable. Perhaps she is the one who gave him some of his socialist values? This scene lends well to that theory and also illustrates Linda's humanity and the reality of parenting: it is hard and messy. I also find it so interesting that in this scene, Simon speaks Swedish back to his mom. In other scenes he speaks Spanish. For me this illustrates his frustration and their disconnect in the scene. Such a good one.

When Wilhelm says that Linda is cool - I actually believe him. Like, I don't think it was him feeding the cute boy he has fallen for a line. I think that he has seen something in Simon and Linda's relationship that is special and he envies it. And I think he is absolutely right to do so.

Thanks again for the ask - did I miss anything? And like I said Besties Latines - please add to the convo or give me some feedback. I welcome both <3

[valcalico]

Athena and Ares

(Just my thoughts on them and their relationship)

I have a lot of feelings about these two. They have a very complex dynamic, where they don’t really like each other, but they can’t work without each other either.

Athena provides rationality to the cruelty of war. She is the strategy and logic behind it. The objective. One might say she represents the generals, and the politicians and the main heroes. Basically the big players.

And Ares? He’s the opposite. He represents the emotion associated with war. He is the bloodlust and the desperate fight. Where the battle is thickest, where there is no room for thought, and when its pure survival instinct that drives you, that’s Ares. He represents the worst parts: the blood and the violence and the cruelty. He is accompanied by fear and terror (Phobos and Deimos). One might say he is the god of soldiers.

So they need each other. If they actually worked together, they’d be one of the dangerous forces ever, even in god circles. But they don’t. Not only because of how differently they view the world, but also because of deeper nuances in their relationship.

Athena is beloved. She is Zeus’ favourite child and his right hand goddess. The people love her. She is the patron of one of the most powerful, influential cities, Athens. She is highly respected everywhere else too. A protector of heroes and a friend to humanity.

Ares, on the other hand, is disliked by many. Zeus says he is “the most hateful of all gods” and says he would have thrown him into Tartarus if he wasn’t his and Hera’s son. (Its in the Iliad) (This part always makes me sad poor ares) He is highly respected in Thrace and Sparta. But Athens dislikes him and worships him out of necessity only.

Even in modern times, Athena is considered a feminist icon and badass lady, while Ares is labelled a brute.

Most people know this. So why did I just type out all that? Cause context is important when delving into the myths.

So first of all, let’s debunk that last point I made. In the ancient myths (and I’ll try not to include romans esp. Ovid), it didn’t work that way at all. Of course it’s important to keep in mind that ancient Greece was very misogynistic. But still, Athena was not feminist at all. Her being a “masculine” woman (mostly) was what made her so acceptable to Athens and she was regularly used to shut down other women. Also:

(The actual translation of this scene was circulated a while back. So you’re probably familiar with this. Also I’m not saying this to offend any worshippers of Athena or anyone who admires her. There are a lot of bad things in greek mythology and Athena’s internal and external misogyny is probably the least of my concerns. Plus if the greek gods did exist, i believe they change with the society, so they will no longer be Like That in the present day.)

Ares, on the other hand, was incredibly feminist, especially for that time. He surrounded himself with women he loved and respected. (Aphrodite, Eris, Enyo, etc). His lovers were often famously women who challenged the status quo (Otrera, Cyrene). He was regularly show to be a good father to all his daughters, immortal and mortal. (Harmonia, Hippolyta, Penthesilia, Alkippe). Also:

If that isn’t the coolest thing EVER-

Anyway, I won’t delve deep into that (well, any more than I’ve already rambled about it).

Now that we have gotten that out of the way, we can get to the hypotheticals.

I headcanon that despite ALL the evidence to the contrary, they maybe don’t despise each other completely. I see them having more of a love-hate relationship.

The thing is, gods are very contrary creatures. Zeus and Hera’s fights shake the world one moment, and in the next, they are as loving as any. Apollo is smiling and singing in one moment and skinning a satyr alive in the next. This complexity should be given this relationship too.

Like I said above, they need each other. Both general and soldier are equally important in war. And I don’t think you can completely truly need someone and hate their existence at the same time. (There are exceptions)

This scene in the Iliad really got me thinking:

If you take the scene at face value, this is probably not something to think too much about. Its Athena going to Ares, insulting him a bit, and taking him away from the war.

But its more than that. First off, Athena goes upto Ares and can calmly convince him to listen to her. Second, look how she frames the question. She says “shall we” which i think is pretty important. Athena doesn’t need to worry about Zeus’ anger or his rules, as she shows later on in the Iliad, and before, during the Rebellion. Both Athena and Ares knows this well. So why does she also need to withdraw? She can make the point without adding herself to the equation. She can also fairly easily run him off the battlefield like she does later. But she doesn’t. And there isnt any hostility from Ares.

Instead, they go together, away from the battlefield and...sit down near a river bank? Basically relax as much as they can? That doesn’t sound like a hateful relationship.

There is also the fact that Ares was going to join sides with the greeks (aka on Athena and Hera’s side) until Aphrodite convinced him to join her instead.

Its clear from this that Ares doesn’t really have much of a stake in this fight. He doesn’t care much about the greater objectives of the war. The only thing that can convince him to take a side is the people one the sides. He fights for the people he cares about, not for any greater good. He easily changes his loyalty because of his love for Aphrodite. He frequently gets into fights to save his children. He goes against Diomedes partly because of how he wounded Aphrodite. All of this means that he cares for Athena too. (And for Hera ofc). Maybe he doesn’t care for her as much as he cares for Aphrodite, but its not really fair to expect him to.

I like to think they genuinely do care for each other a great deal, they just kinda suck at showing it. Maybe that changes as time passes. I can see Athena being quietly protective of Ares (maybe she makes up an excuse to send him away during the Rebellion because she knows he will be in danger otherwise). I definitely think she felt a little guilt (guilt, not regret) at stabbing Ares, seeing as it wasn’t really fair. Ares didn’t know she was there.

I also think that Ares, who spends a lot of time with awesome women and is very fierce in standing up for them if the need arises, will be the one who calls her out a lot of the time on her misogyny or hypocrisy. Athena also has a habit of suppressing any “vulnerable” emotion. She likes to keep all her guilt, sadness, fear, hurt, and regret all locked up tight. I feel like Ares is one of the few people she lets a few of those emotions out around, even if she still tries not to. And in the lighter moments, in private, maybe they joke around a bit and laugh, too.

Okay, now for the heavier bit. While i do think they care for each other, there is also a lot of resentment there. A lot of it, unfortunately, comes from how they are treated by their peers and elders. They like different people, they are liked by different people and they are liked to different degrees. Let’s talk about 3 of the main players.

1) Zeus. Does this surprise you?

I do think Zeus loves all his kids. He doesn’t like some of them, but he does love all of them. And he isn’t as bad of a father as everyone thinks. People have discussed that better so I’ll not rant about it here.

All that aside, he definitely has favourites. Athena is his favourite child (Apollo, I think, being his second). And this favouritism is SUPER OBVIOUS. Its like none of the rules apply to Athena, which is weird considering Zeus isn’t forgiving of those who defy his authority (did someone say Prometheus?)

Ares, on the other hand, is on the other side of the spectrum. The one Zeus dislikes the most.

We can see how this affects them in several instances. The most notable is probably in the Iliad, after Athena deceitfully stabs Ares and forces him to flee to Olympus, injured.

Ares calls Zeus out on his favouritism. He says that gods weren’t allowed to fight each other and if it were anyone else, they would have been punished. He says Zeus always does this, always lets Athena get away with everything, and that he needs to start getting his daughter under control.

Zeus doesnt like this too much and basically tells Ares to stop whining and that he isn’t much better when it comes to destruction. He says Ares is the most hateful of all gods and loves bloodshed. He says he would have gotten rid of him if he weren’t his son, but seeing as he was, Zeus cannot bear to see Ares in pain. He then gets Ares healed.

I can definitely see how this kind of blatant favouritism from someone who should be better to Ares would affect him. Ares is the firstborn son of Zeus and Hera. He should be getting a lot of respect, as per ancient standards but instead, he is overtaken by his virgin half sister from Zeus’ previous marriage, and many bastard half siblings.

Athena being able to break rules left and right, and Ares having to be nervous about even toeing the line will cause distance between them.

This in addition to his position as a god of civil order is a reason that i think he wouldn’t want to break any rule until he deems it absolutely necessary, like if someone he cared about were in danger.

I can totally see a situation where both of them try to help a hero but Zeus orders them not to. Athena then wants to break the rules, but Ares is very hesitant about doing so. Athena convinces him, either by taunting or by calmly urging him, to go along with it. They get caught but only Ares gets punished. Ares can then truly show Athena the difference between her and everyone else.

Remember when i headcanoned earlier that Athena sends Ares away during the Rebellion? That ties into this. She knows that if they get caught, ares could get into trouble whether or not he did anything. I expect Ares will be furious about it when he returns and finds out what happened though, thinking it was just to get him out of the way, until its revealed why she did it. Then he’ll probably be super awkward.

2) Poseidon

The equal and opposite force to Zeus.

Well, maybe not equal, but quite close.

Lets start with the canon. Poseidon HATES Athena, despises her completely, and he frequently clashes with her father too. They worked together one (1) time and as a result, Athena wasnt punished while Poseidon was enslaved for years. Then there is the fight for Athens, the whole epic of the Odyssey, and so on.

Meanwhile he and Ares are actually shown to be close. Other than the Halirhothius incident, they are pretty chill. Poseidon is the one who vouched for him after the Net Thing With Hephaestus. Poseidon is also pretty cool with Aphrodite and they work together occasionally.

I think Poseidon thinks of Athena as this bratty kid of his brother, who is constantly working against him. You know that one annoying cousin you have who you try to avoid during family reunions because you KNOW you will clash? This is that, but a thousand times worse.

Meanwhile Poseidon really cares for Ares, and Ares takes fatherly affection from anywhere he can get it. Poseidon maintains a good relationship with both Aphrodite and Ares. He is closer with Aphrodite and doesnt love Ares quite as much as Zeus loves Athena, but he still cares a lot.

3) Aphrodite

It is no secret that Athena hates Aphrodite. Even when Athena warns Diomedes not to harm any god, she says Aphrodite is the exception. Athena, along with many of the other Olympians, see her as nothing but a silly, flighty, hysterical goddess.

On the other hand, Aphrodite and Ares are known for their intense love for each other, from even before her arranged marriage. They have a lot of kids together, and are shown to be close with all of them. They each have like one story of jealousy/one story where they are at odds with each other, which is pretty good for such a high-profile couple (Aphrodite curses Eos and Ares kills Adonis). They are there for each other, like in the trojan war, when Aphrodite was wounded and Ares gave her his chariot to go back to Olympus. He also changed sides very soon, just because Aphrodite asked. Athena complains about this too.

I think I wouldn’t be far off in saying that Athena is definitely resentful of how close they are, and how much sway Aphrodite has over her brother.

While Athena definitely doesn’t see eye to eye with Ares, and disagrees with his domain, she still sees him as a War God. One of her kind. And she just doesn’t see how a War God can go for someone like Aphrodite. Basically, she doesn’t think Aphrodite is, for lack of a better term, good enough for Ares, seeing as she is a Love Goddess.

Ares, on the other hand, does not want to hear anything like this. He is fiercely defensive of Aphrodite. He defends her warlike aspect (Aphrodite Areia), while everyone else tells her that she has no place in the battlefield. He sees Aphrodite as more than what people have labelled her to be. Which is why I believe (other than Eos and Adonis), they have one of the healthiest open relationships in greek mythology.

This can definitely cause animosity between Athena and Ares, because of Athena’s scorn and Ares’ temper. It can also increase the conflict between Athena and Aphrodite.

Maybe as time goes on, Athena can start seeing Aphrodite as having more depth. I certainly hope so. While they wouldn’t be best friends, I don’t see why they can’t learn to get along. This could also strengthen Athena and Ares’ bond. As long as people don’t insult her or lay their claim on her domain of Love and Beauty, Aphrodite is often very supportive. I truly think Aphrodite can help Athena overcome her misogyny, with Ares.

In conclusion, Athena and Ares have a very complex relationship. They do not simply hate each other, and neither do they have the most loving relationship. But they do care for each other. But strain can often be put on their relationship from their relationship to other people as well. Hopefully as time passes, they can overcome that, and have a healthier relationship, instead of sharing a good moment and then proceeding to fight each other for the next 500 years.