#cersei: asks.

[ofprevioustimes]

@withguilt sent: [ carry ] after receiver falls asleep in an inconvenient place, sender carries them to a bed and tucks them in / jaime @ cersei

In her dreams, they were one being. Two pieces of the same creature, forming a perfect combination of Tywin and Joanna. There they lived without restraint, indivisible from each other – and no one dared to dismiss her on account of her girlhood when she was one with Jaime. Her dreams were always sweetest when she slept beside him. Cersei had been moody and easily irritable since Father had resigned as Hand of the King and brought her back to Casterly Rock. All the planning to get Jaime appointed to the Kingsguard, only for them to be separated again! She’d already dismissed about her tenth bedmaid by the time he came to visit, just in time to ensure that her chambers would be empty when he arrived, with no one to witness her sneaking out or in.  

The sky displayed its first hints of sunlight by the time she’d dozed off. Next to him, she lost all fear. Cersei forgot to care about getting caught: she hadn’t woken until he was setting her down in her own bed, and she grunted upon recognizing her rooms. “No”, she complained, reaching out to grab his tunic. “I meant to stay there with you…”

[melrosing]

why did martin made cersei evil from the beginning? tyrion and jaime are very fucked up but they still have some kindness and empathy in them. at age 7 she was torturing baby tyrion by pulling on his genitals and threatening the wet nurse her tongue would be cut out. she killed her friend at age 10. having all these negative traits baked in from the beginning makes her more flat for me. plus martin made her stupid and mockable. she has zero self awareness. she is dishonest with herself. even d&d had more respect for her. do you think cersei is a sociopath? i think martin doesn't like her. do you agree with me?

ok you pose several arguments here but I will try and reply as entirely as I can.

why did martin made cersei evil from the beginning?

I've questioned this choice sometimes but I don't think it was necessarily the wrong one?? the scene with baby Tyrion is to me a deeply disturbing but still very interesting one that says a lot about Cersei, her relationship with Tywin, and the greater part she's played in shaping her relationship with Tyrion.

here, she has obviously very quickly absorbed Tywin's 'the baby killed Joanna' narrative, and is punishing Tyrion in a manner that's like. both childish and horribly violent at once, like she doesn't fully understand how violence is usually applied (pinching is a really childish form of violence in my mind), but she knows how to make it hurt.

then there's also the fact that perhaps Tyrion now represents a rival to second place - her status over him is that she's able-bodied, but his over her is his sex. maybe Cersei has some vague understanding of this at seven, and that's another part of why she hurts Tyrion is this extremely particular way.

and also like. Tywin is ultimately a man of extreme violence, and Cersei has always been listening at the door trying to learn from him. it makes sense that she'd be trying to apply his teachings where she sees fit, and that this would result in disturbed behaviour like what she does to Tyrion. I think it's also interesting that we can distinguish this from what Joffrey does to the cat, for example. there's a kind of obliviousness to that act of violence in Joffrey's early childhood (making more the case for nature over nurture, though nurture plays its part). Cersei's childhood violence is a lot more intentional: it feels like she's trying to exercise power of her own, and that is very much fitting with adult Cersei's story.

however, I think Cersei herself identifies the Melara incident as something of an outlier in her childhood. I don't say this to suggest that Cersei was not a very violent child, but that she didn't do it out of pure evil. I think the key factor driving Cersei to do what she does to Melara is a fear for her own mortality - Melara points out that if noone talks of Maggy's prophecy, it needn't be true, and so Cersei kills the only other person who knows of it (besides Maggy). I do think spite towards Melara for yearning for Jaime factored insofar as this helps Cersei build just enough spite towards Melara that she's able to do what she does, but it is primarily an act of self-preservation, I think. I think many evil acts of Cersei's are self-preservation, though taken way past the line of what's justifiable to that end.

and ofc, Cersei as an adult feels some level of guilt about what she did to Melara. it does fuck with her a bit. I think the main reason is that Melara was a friend and confidante for a time, someone who she could have held close but instead cast out (same as how she briefly reflects on Sansa and how she might have done better by her). so..... again, it does come down to self-preservation in the end, but I don't think Cersei was a two-dimensional evil kid. you can find the sense in her reasoning, which is pretty absent in what Joffrey does to the cat.

tyrion and jaime are very fucked up but they still have some kindness and empathy in them.

i personally find the cersei/her brothers dichotomies kind of frustrating cos like. not every character needs the traits of empathy and kindness. Cersei is not the only character in ASOIAF who lacks these traits. Littlefinger, Euron, Roose, Ramsay, Tywin himself, etc, all lack these traits, and yet are not afforded anything close to complexity Cersei is. she is the only POV character among these villains. and whilst I do think that the whiplash between Cersei's occasionally-played-for-laughs foolishness and her sexual trauma is sometimes verging on ill-judged, fandom should take more accountability for the extent to which they relegate Cersei to dark comic relief. she was not written as this.

and as I've said before, whilst I do think it's notable that Cersei is our primary female villain yet written as often foolish and ridiculed as such, yet male villains comparably tend to be much savvier, it still makes sense that Cersei would lack these smarts: she wasn't taught them. still, sure, to some extent I agree that GRRM should not have played this for laughs so often.

returning again to Cersei lacking empathy etc - well, you have other characters who lack evil. Brienne hasn't really got a gram of darkness in her body, yet is enormously complex in other ways. then you've got characters like Asha, who have more of a balance of the two, and yet aren't even half as complex as Cersei (despite being a POV). GRRM has not refused Cersei complexity, and he has not written her, on his own part, without empathy. we see Cersei grieve, we see Cersei traumatised, we see Cersei frightened, we see Cersei humiliated. again, as I've said before, GRRM makes us hold Cersei's cruelty in the one hand, and Cersei's pain in the other, and reckon with both at once. neither excuses the other, as they might in a lesser story - like Game of Thrones!

and i'm not going to go deep into GOT right now, but I don't agree that d&d had more respect for Cersei as a character. d&d cannot conceive of Cersei as anything besides a mother. they reduce everything about her to motherhood, and when she runs out of children, they stick another one in her. they cannot imagine what might drive a character like Cersei beyond motherhood. it is essentially the final note of her story - 'I don't want our baby to die' etc. i don't think i need to say much more to explain that I think reducing a character like book Cersei to this, is deeply misogynistic. if you want to see that misogyny in action elsewhere, see how the finale ultimately frames a dichotomy between the childless Dany, a freak tyrant, and the pregnant mother Cersei, who the writers think we'll want to escape to Pentos to survive with her baby, and who we're supposed to weep for when she doesn't make it out. and now remember what happened like. one episode before with Missandei, the last black woman on this show. d&d couldn't respect a woman if their lives depended on it

do you think cersei is a sociopath?

GRRM says she has an 'almost sociopathic' view of the world, but obviously shies away from identifying her as such, and I think he's right to - these kinds of labels are far too prescriptive when what you're trying to write is a character in a book, not an article for a medical journal.

do you agree with me?

nah not really. ultimately I think whilst Cersei is written as unabashedly evil, this doesn't mean that that evil is two dimensional. she exists on the darkest end of the spectrum because I think that is the most interesting place for her to occupy - I don't believe Cersei's story would be improved with a redemption arc, or a couple of instances where she sneaks Sansa a sweet or w/e. grey characters are interesting, yeah, but they are not invariably more interesting than those in the darkest shades, and I don't think GRRM has done Cersei an injustice by not painting her lighter.

[nedseii]

Please. More Nedsei

MORE NEDSEI OMG

I have this old thingy for you!

I used this art by Andy Virgil as ref!

[imjustapoorwayfaringgeek]

someone asked for end of year wips and i lost the post where i answered them 😭 i dont remember their name but i'm posting the wip again...

might be my biggest 'project' from this year which i will eventually get done with and post

i absolutely hate doing backgrounds

[kingsmoot]

any thoughts on Cersei and Taena?

yeah, i love cersei and taena. their sex/rape scene is one that reliably makes me cry on every reread. cersei edges so close to perceiving the enormity of what was done to her and then turns away as quickly as possible.

unfortunately, taena is written in a deeply racist and orientalist way. it is a consistent and pervasive problem grrm has throughout the series. taena is exotified, objectified, and given no personhood or depth of her own. she serves to develop cersei's story (that in and of itself is not a bad thing. i've mentioned before that jeyne (notably a white girl) exists within theon's story to give him character development and that's fine because stories need tertiary support characters who develop their main characters) and is a non-person otherwise. but taena is not just an example of a tertiary character, she is part of a grrm tradition of giving his non-white characters little to no voice/interiority/depth, something his white characters (especially those with other marginalized identities) get in spades.

this is both disappointing and consistent. i would love if twow dropped with sudden taena pov chapters but there is absolutely no chance that will ever happen. this makes me sad because i find cersei and taena extremely compelling, especially cersei's cruelty towards taena that is so inseparable from her desire for her. this is just how cersei lannister is. i love her to pieces.

the fact that after cersei's walk of shame she asks for taena to be brought back to her really rips me to shreds. i wonder how taena would feel receiving that summons!!

[nobodysuspectsthebutterfly]

re: being unable to predict twow and maybe being upset it doesn't do what fandom wants it to, were there any things in adwd you remember being surprised by and that went against common fandom interpretation at the time? :3

I'm not quite sure what was common fandom interpretation at the time, since after I finished AFFC in 2005 I tried the westeros.org forums and was extremely repelled by them and their hate for my favorite characters - and indeed, most female characters - and avoided them thereafter. (And somehow I never thought to check the Livejournal communities at the time, alas, which would've been more up my alley.) I did devour worg's Citadel (their pre-wiki, including the So Spake Martin archive) and fanart collection though lol.

But of course I was still surprised by things in ADWD. Like, I had no expectation whatsoever that Bloodraven was still alive, let alone that he was the three-eyed crow. Or heck, that the children of the forest definitely exist and appear on page as actual characters! I did not expect a Varamyr prologue POV in the slightest, or his warg/skinchanger lore reveals. And I did not expect the Aegon reveal at all, though checking the SSMs afterwards (as well as this ancient pre-AFFC FAQ) showed me that some people had been wondering from day 1 if he had survived. And for that matter, Jon Connington's survival was surprising (at least my memory is very good, so the griffin thing and Tyrion's suspicions of him being a Westeros lord had me leaping back to Jaime's conversation with Ronnet), as well as Jon's POV (including his sexual orientation) and the greyscale thing. Oh man, the whole stone men scene was all new fascinating worldbuilding.

As for existing POVs and known plots, I certainly never expected Theon's state as Reek (tortured, yes, but not reduced to that, though I probably should have), or that he would be a POV again, or that I would find his narrative so heartwrenching or that he would become a favorite character. (From reading a bunch of pre-ADWD fanfics, I don't think the fandom expected Ramsay to be so abusive of Jeyne either, but for that I have no idea why.) I was surprised by Cersei's walk of shame, though I probably should have expected some sort of religion-based sexual humiliation. (Actually, I don't think most people expected the returning AFFC POVs because of the book split, though I'm glad GRRM chose to update us on some of its cliffhangers - like, at least Brienne is no longer hanging from a tree!) I did not expect Tyrion's POV and mental state to be so dark, but again, I probably should have. I also didn't expect him to link up with Jorah (I don't recall what I imagined Jorah to do in his exile but not that - maybe lurk around the fringes of Meereen?) or the slavery plot at all.

I think the fandom in general expected more... plot-advancement, I guess, more battles involving KL again, more movement of Dany towards Westeros, though they always have, lol. (There are ACOK-era theories that she'd come to Westeros right away, marry Robb and destroy the Lannisters together, etc.) I'm sure some expected Stannis conquering Winterfell and getting the Boltons out, though at least there they were mostly right, as the battle of ice (as well as the battle of fire) got cut from ADWD last minute. As for plot advancement expectations from me, I personally hoped that Marwyn would reach Dany in ADWD, though considering he leaves at the end of the last chapter of AFFC and the distances involved, I really should have known better. But I did expect to hear at least a little about Rickon, and Davos learning he's on Skagos (and getting sent to retrieve him) was a pleasant semi-resolution there.

Anyway, hope that helps! If/when we get TWOW, despite the fandom doing like 15 years of speculation and theories (not to mention the show), I'm sure there will be plenty of surprises, both positive ones and disappointments, as well as completely unexpected things.

[coffeebooksrain18]

I find it hilarious that pre-HotD gif sets of Cersei/Rhaenyra were everywhere. Two blonde psycho Queens who have a penchant for luxury, incest and bastards; the parallels are right there!

Then HotD comes out and it’s suddenly how dare you compare our beautiful, amazing Messiah Queen to evil Cersei! I kid you not I’m getting TBs insist Rhaenyra has more in common with Catelyn 🤣

No Rhaenyra has nothing in common with Catelyn. She is so much like Cersei it's wild.

I honestly love Cersei, and I think book Rhaenyra is cool as well. But this Fandom (Rhaenyra stans) don't want to admit that the woman they hated in GoT is the most like Rhaenyra.

They both had three bastard children and tried to have them take the throne. They both used their sexuality against men to get their way. They were both called Maegor or compared to Maegor. They were both hated by the smallfolk. And they were both spoiled by their fathers.

To run off what you said though Anon I notice TB Rhaenyra stans think she's the most like Visenya which is mind boggling to me. Because no, it is Alicent who is the most like Visenya.

They were both second wives or in this case the sceond ones to give a child. They both put their son on the throne even though it went again the pervious monarchs wishes. They both were the mothers of the living King in a dance of the dragons. Maegors was smaller as it was only him verses Aegon the uncrowded but still. They both had sons who wore the Conquers crown. They were both cunning and politically savvy.

Like sorry but if Rhaenyra met Visenya she would've laughed in her face (show and book Rhaenyra) and hugged Alicent (at least book her)

Thanks for the ask Anon!

[queenvhagar]

How did Alicent not create and further a hostile environment when she essentially forced Rhaenyra to present her baby immediately after childbirth, and acted with mocking concern that Rhaenyra walked all the way to her. Even while Alicent KNEW her mother died in childbirth. Alicent furthering rumors that her children are bastards, Alicent making Rhaenyra’s life hell and dangerous so much that she left to Dragonstone, Alicent leading to Harwin’s death. By your logic Cersei didn’t create any hostile environment either since they’re all just blameless women who don’t have power. Cersei couldn’t stop Joffrey from doing anything so Sansa has no right to hate her then

Alicent asked the baby be brought to her sometime after birth, and Rhaenyra chose to maliciously comply by carrying the baby herself, so people would see how bad Alicent was for making her go all that way when in reality Alicent just asked for a servant to bring the baby to her. Why did both of them do this? Well, it's clearly established that at this point there's been a decade of back and forth shot-taking at each other. The green dress moment, this incident, the contrasting opinions at the small council, the petty comments... all of this is indicative of the two of them trying to power play each other out because they didn't like each other. In this case, Alicent wanted to confirm for herself the third bastard, and Rhaenyra knew this and decided to accompany the baby despite Alicent not asking her to in order to shift the focus onto Alicent's request being unreasonable and away from the idea that she was requesting to see the baby so soon to confirm its parentage in the first place. It's them playing with perception of others here and trying to control the situation better than the other. Again, because there is a mutual dislike each other and there are competing interests between the two women.

None of the women in this story are wholly powerless, but there are women who have more or less power than others. Rhaenyra always had more power than Alicent, point blank. Rhaenyra is a Targaryen dragonrider, in the king's eyes his favorite and "only" child, and named heir to the throne. Alicent is the non-Valyrian dragonless daughter of a second son, and even though she became Viserys' second queen, clearly the king did not value her, setting her aside, laughing at her in public, calling her the wrong name in front of others, and he clearly did not care at all about their children together. The power level between the two is uneven, and it's crazy that people seem to think somehow Alicent is this all powerful villain who could have one-sided outright bullied a poor, powerless, helpless Rhaenyra. The power difference is clearly seen at Driftmark, when Rhaenyra gets the king to do everything she asks while Alicent begs him for any care about her son just to be ignored. All along Rhaenyra could wield her father's favoritism to benefit her, and she did, in that moment and again when Vaemond Velaryon came to court.

It's also important to acknowledge that the bastard "rumor" was not solely a Green creation that Alicent decided to make up with the purpose of making Rhaenyra look bad or something. As Aegon put it at Driftmark, everyone had eyes and could see that these white skinned brown haired boys clearly looked more similar to the white skinned brown haired man always at Rhaenyra's side than her husband, with his dark skin and white hair, who spent less time with Rhaenyra and the family than Harwin and more time with his squires. This plain fact is damaging and dangerous to Rhaenyra, but Rhaenyra is to blame for this. Her and Laenor tried maybe once before she immediately became pregnant with Jace by Harwin, according to the timeline, and as Margaery and actual history shows us it was definitely possible for queer men to have gotten a woman pregnant with the purpose of producing an heir. However, Rhaenyra was just interested in acting to their arrangement of dining as she pleased, and then proceeded to recklessly have not one but three clear pieces of evidence to her breaking her vow to her husband (which maybe is less scandalous to us, the modern viewer, but oath breaking is pretty serious in Westeros, especially for women). And before there's an argument of how she was forced to marry a gay man... Rhaenyra (and Daemon) did that. She left her marriage tour to pick her own match among hundreds of suitors early and then was seen in a brothel with Daemon, tarnishing her reputation and forcing her father to quickly marry her to a Velaryon (and of course Daemon brought her there with the purpose of sullying her reputation enough so Viserys would just let Daemon marry her). The funny thing here is that Harwin himself could have been a marriage candidate as the heir to Harrenhall and an active member at court, and he was certainly an option to consider! But she lost her chance. As heir to the throne and a Targaryen woman, there was no situation where she would not have needed to get married and make an heir, and Rhaenyra should have known this and considered her options while she had them. Then even when she was married to Laenor, there were ways around his queerness. Try to have a baby, or petition that he's infertile and the marriage should be absolved on that grounds so she can marry someone else. But Rhaenyra wanted to have her cake and eat it too; she wanted the Velaryons on her side to support her claim to the throne and a son of hers to one day inherit Driftmark, and she wanted to only have sex with Harwin and have his babies. Both were impossible at the same time if she wanted to avoid conflict.

Essentially, all of this put together, it was through her own choices that Rhaenyra had three obvious bastards that weakened her own claim and put herself in the middle of a political scandal. And even when Alicent talked about it at all, it was only with Viserys, Criston, and Larys in private (and she potentially told her children, likely to warn them of the further succession crisis this would cause when Rhaenyra or her sons try to come to power despite their weak claims and bastard status in this society that despises bastards). Obviously all of them already had eyes and knew the truth, and Criston had also already known the truth of what was going on because Rhaenyra explicitly had told him about the arrangement, and it was clear that Harwin was the one who filled that role for her. So when the third bastard is born, he goads Harwin into fighting him, exposing his role in the situation, and the attention on Harwin this causes results in Lionel Strong sending him back to Harrenhall. Then, Larys takes advantage of the situation to kill them both and become Lord of Harrenhall. He says he did it for Alicent, to get her father back, but realistically there's no reason to expect Viserys should have even asked Otto back as Hand after firing him (and he really shouldn't have, if he was trying to help Rhaenyra consolidate power). All of this considered, it's a pretty big step to say that Alicent is to blame for Harwin's death. I personally say it was Harwin's decision to be Rhaenyra's lover and father to her children that got him sent away from court, and then it was his own brother's decision to kill him for power.

Not exactly sure what your point is trying to bring up Cersei when the contexts are pretty different... like sure she was a lady married to a king who didn't love her and then she fought for her children's rights ruthlessly. But Cersei has a closer parallel in Rhaenyra, to be honest: a mother to three bastards who uses them to usurp thrones they have no real claim to and who ignores their misdeeds completely and/or weaponizes them against their victims. The obvious parallel here is Joffrey threatening and cutting the butcher's boy, getting attacked by Nymeria, and Cersei immediately pushing her own version of events that unquestionably paints her son as the ultimate victim and demanding the king take action against the others, and the Strong boys ambushing Aemond with a knife, beating on him four on one, cutting out his eye, and then Rhaenyra immediately pushing her own version of events that unquestionably paints her sons as the ultimate victims and demanding the king take action against the others. Cersei definitely did create hostile environments through her actions, as did Rhaenyra. Cersei could have tried to control Joffrey better, but she was unwilling to acknowledge his flaws or try to hold him accountable when he had done wrong. Almost like how Rhaenyra never talked to her boys about jumping a kid and cutting his eye out because she was unwilling to acknowledge their role in the situation or hold them accountable for their actions. Both mothers saw their children as largely flawless and were unwilling to confront them with their mistakes or misdeeds.

[calirph]

𝐂𝐎𝐍𝐍𝐈𝐄 𝐍𝐈𝐄𝐋𝐒𝐄𝐍 as 𝐋𝐔𝐂𝐈𝐋𝐋𝐀 in 𝐆𝐋𝐀𝐃𝐈𝐀𝐓𝐎𝐑.

[atopvisenyashill]

that bit about joffrey is FASCINATING have you ever written about this in depth? I've always loved his character but I would never be able to like. Describe why exactly he is the way he is so I really appreciate your analysis of him loving BOTH parents and incorporating only their flaws - I always just assumed that he hates his dad and is annoyed by cersei (still loves her) but then the way we sexually humiliates and abuses sansa etc is so robert-coded like of course he emulates the bevavior of his father.

Also slightly off topic but i always forget that Joffrey is like canonically so good at all the proper princely things (thinking of that scene at Sansa and Tyrion's wedding when she's so upset that a monster like Joff could be so good at dancing) and - not to go on about GOT again - but I wish we had actually gotten to see that and him being charming etc. Huge props to the show for giving Joff the perfect wardrobe (the only thing they did right) but also f them for waiting all that potential

yes, they really said joff gets to have all the swag and then the moment he died they put cersei in that fuck ass bob and no one in the lannisters was allowed to serve again smh. and thank youuu i actually had to stop myself from rambling over him before haha, but i'll go into more detail here! so this was the comment from the other post-

joffrey is a kid just ruled by his first, most base instinct. his instincts, his core emotions, tell him to love and trust both robert and cersei, and imo he twists himself into a MONSTER to try to appeal to both of them. no one else matters - not his siblings, not his uncle, not his grandfather, not the realm. he needs to be the sort of vicious person they could both be proud of, he needs to be better than them both at violence, so he absorbs all of their faults and none of their virtues.

i definitely do see very often that people feel he only loves one or the other parent and while I do understand that reading, I don't think it's quite how Joffrey operates. I think he does love them both, and holds them both in high esteem. I do agree that he's annoyed by Cersei but that doesn't mean he doesn't value her opinion (as much as Joffrey puts value on anyone else's opinion, I mean).

Joffrey and Cersei

Joffrey relies on his mother more than almost any other male character we see in the series. We see him call for Cersei basically every time he's hurt, in trouble, or wanting to whine about something. Not only that, but you have everyone from Robert to Renly to Tywin himself saying that Joffrey is doted upon and inseparable from his mother. A few choice quotes:

"Fear is better than love, Mother says." Joffrey pointed at Sansa. "She fears me."

He takes Cersei's lessons to heart, however flawed they are. Her opinion matters to him, he wants her to see him as strong.

Nine cases out of ten seemed to bore him; those he allowed his council to handle, squirming restlessly while Lord Baelish, Grand Maester Pycelle, or Queen Cersei resolved the matter. When he did choose to make a ruling, though, not even his queen mother could sway him.

It's Cersei he listens to the most. We know that if a little King, even with his mother as Regent, doesn't want to deal with her, he can simply ignore her - that's what Jaehaerys does with Alyssa, after all. But Joffrey doesn't do this; he'll fight with her, he'll insult her, and he's not shy about doing it in public but he never disregards her out of hand.

Joffrey lurched to his feet. "I'm king! Kill him! Kill him now! I command it." He chopped down with his hand, a furious, angry gesture . . . and screeched in pain when his arm brushed against one of the sharp metal fangs that surrounded him. The bright crimson samite of his sleeve turned a darker shade of red as his blood soaked through it. "Mother!" he wailed.

His instinct, every time, is to turn to her for help. He loves her. He adores her. She's the only person around who tells him he's strong and smart and will be a good king. He leans on her for guidance, for comfort, he talks to her about fucking whores. He shares everything with her because he doesn't have a single friend. She models anger and violence for him constantly, she excuses his disturbing proclivities, so he molds himself to be the person she wants him to be, the king she wants him to be. People - including Tyrion and Tywin! - are always wondering why Cersei is blind to his cruelty, but the reality is she knew he was cruel and loved him for it.

Tommen did as he was bid. His meekness troubled her. A king had to be strong. Joffrey would have argued. He was never easy to cow.

For Cersei, cruelty is strength and in her eyes, Joffrey is as strong as they come. This isn't by accident; just like his constant cries for her are reinforced by her rushing to coddle him, his cruelty is reinforced by a mother who sees it as strength. It's almost like what Coldhands says to Bran - Joffrey is a monster, yes, but in Cersei's eyes, Joffrey is her monster.

Joffrey and Robert

Joffrey had never had a close friend of his own age, that she recalled. The poor boy was always alone. I had Jaime when I was a child . . . and Melara, until she fell into the well. Joff had been fond of the Hound, to be sure, but that was not friendship. He was looking for the father he never found in Robert.

From Cersei's point of view, I think she knows very well that Joffrey is searching for love, acceptance, and himself in Robert. She doesn't like it, but she seems to accept that it's natural for Joffrey to search for some sort of father figure, and doesn't seem to begrudge him that - imo, I think because she knows Robert is always going to reject Joffrey for his cruelty.

“Why would he [care]? Robert ignored him. He would have beat him if I’d allowed it. That brute you made me marry once hit the boy so hard he knocked out two of his baby teeth, over some mischief with a cat. I told him I’d kill him in his sleep if he ever did it again, and he never did, but sometimes he would say things…”

Whenever they interact, the few times they do, there's violence. People always take this as Cersei not allowing Robert to "teach" or "properly discipline" Joffrey but, well...does the above seem like helpful discipline? Knocking out your child because he freaked you out? Punishing extreme violence with more extreme violence? And it's not just Cersei that this moment sticks with, because Stannis brings it up as well-

"Joffrey . . . I remember once, this kitchen cat . . . the cooks were wont to feed her scraps and fish heads. One told the boy that she had kittens in her belly, thinking he might want one. Joffrey opened up the poor thing with a dagger to see if it were true. When he found the kittens, he brought them to show to his father. Robert hit the boy so hard I thought he'd killed him."

Since Cersei says Robert would "say things" and we see him threatening Cersei (the "or I'll honor you again" line), I don't think it's a stretch to say that Robert threatened to beat Joffrey nearly to death several times over.

And yet...Joffrey compliments his father, especially in comparison to his other relatives.

He wrenched free of her. "Why should I? Everyone knows it's true. My father won all the battles. He killed Prince Rhaegar and took the crown, while your father was hiding under Casterly Rock." The boy gave his grandfather a defiant look. "A strong king acts boldly, he doesn't just talk."

And Cersei believes this came from Robert-

"Father, I am sorry," Cersei said, when the door was shut. "Joff has always been willful, I did warn you . . ." "There is a long league's worth of difference between willful and stupid. 'A strong king acts boldly?' Who told him that?" "Not me, I promise you," said Cersei. "Most like it was something he heard Robert say . . ."

And of course, Jaime is the one who pieces together why Joffrey sent the catspaw-

“Yes, I hoped the boy would die. So did you. Even Robert thought that would have been for the best. ‘We kill our horses when they break a leg, and our dogs when they go blind, but we are too weak to give the same mercy to crippled children’ he told me. He was blind himself at the time, from drink.” Robert? Jaime had guarded the king long enough to know that Robert Baratheon said things in his cups that he would have denied angrily the next day. “Were you alone when Robert said this?” “You don’t think he said it to Ned Stark, I hope? Of course we were alone. Us and the children.” Cersei removed her hairnet and draped it over a bedpost, then shook out her golden curls. “Perhaps Myrcella sent this man with the dagger, do you think so?” It was meant as mockery, but she’d cut right to the heart of it, Jaime saw at once. “Not Myrcella. Joffrey.” Cersei frowned. “Joffrey had no love for Robb Stark, but the younger boy was nothing to him. He was only a child himself .” “A child hungry for a pat on the head from that sot you let him believe was his father.”

When you put it all together, you have a child who is ignored by his father unless he's being threatened with a beating, who is constantly calling him a monster, who watches his father harm and humiliate his mother day in and day out, who has no other paternal figure around but this violent, angry man who he is supposed to model himself off of, and a mother who encourages his cruelty because she believes it's the only way to protect herself, to protect her son. He's not just emulating his mother's cruelty, he's emulating Robert's violence specifically when he humilates Sansa at court, when he openly talks shit about Cersei - it's what he's seen modeled for him as kingly behavior!

The Abuse And Jaime Of It All

King Joffrey's face hardened. "My mother tells me that it isn't fitting that a king should strike his wife. Ser Meryn."

He knows Robert is abusing Cersei and he takes her dislike of it seriously even as he doesn't make the connection that she means he shouldn't be striking his wife period. Whether it's because Cersei directly told him (which could make sense; she's purposefully hiding it from Jaime but perhaps she confided in Joffrey) or because he witnessed it himself, he's aware of the abuse enough that he takes his mother's comments about not personally striking Sansa to heart.

"No," [Robert] thundered in a voice that drowned out all other speech. Sansa was shocked to see the king on his feet, red of face, reeling. He had a goblet of wine in one hand, and he was drunk as a man could be. "You do not tell me what to do, woman," he screamed at Queen Cersei. "I am king here, do you understand? I rule here, and if I say that I will fight tomorrow, I will fight!" Everyone was staring. Sansa saw Ser Barristan, and the king's brother Renly, and the short man who had talked to her so oddly and touched her hair, but no one made a move to interfere. The queen's face was a mask, so bloodless that it might have been sculpted from snow. She rose from the table, gathered her skirts around her, and stormed off in silence, servants trailing behind. Jaime Lannister put a hand on the king's shoulder, but the king shoved him away hard. Lannister stumbled and fell. The king guffawed. "The great knight. I can still knock you in the dirt. Remember that, Kingslayer." He slapped his chest with the jeweled goblet, splashing wine all over his satin tunic. "Give me my hammer and not a man in the realm can stand before me!" Jaime Lannister rose and brushed himself off. "As you say, Your Grace." His voice was stiff. Lord Renly came forward, smiling. "You've spilled your wine, Robert. Let me bring you a fresh goblet." Sansa started as Joffrey laid his hand on her arm. "It grows late," the prince said. He had a queer look on his face, as if he were not seeing her at all. "Do you need an escort back to the castle?"

I think it's pretty clear that Joffrey is dissociating here which also explains his very detached way of looking at Robert's abuse of Cersei. It freaks him out enough that he uses Sansa as an excuse to leave (giving her the Hound, then running off himself) but he doesn't show it. He's not even particularly upset during this scene, not throwing a tantrum or making whiny remarks like he does when he's usually upset. He only has a "queer look" - the stress of trying to reconcile his adoration of Robert and his love of Cersei just makes him fully shut down instead of confronting it.

Joffrey gave a petulant shrug. "Your brother defeated my uncle Jaime. My mother says it was treachery and deceit. She wept when she heard. Women are all weak, even her, though she pretends she isn't. She says we need to stay in King's Landing in case my other uncles attack, but I don't care. After my name day feast, I'm going to raise a host and kill your brother myself. That's what I'll give you, Lady Sansa. Your brother's head."

I think people often take his comments about how women are weak to mean he doesn't view his mother as a competent advisor. But you notice a pattern here - he gets shitty with her when it's about Jaime specifically.

"A great many people are sorry for that," Tyrion replied, "and before I am done, some may be a deal sorrier . . . yet I thank you for the sentiment. Joffrey, where might I find your mother?" "She's with my council," the king answered. "Your brother Jaime keeps losing battles."

"She's with my council" he says, because he sees no reason to not let Cersei run things without him, something Robert never lets her do. But "your brother Jaime" not "my uncle Jaime" which is a shift because he doesn't stop calling Renly or Stannis his uncles even after they rebel. He knows, he suspects, and what he resents is not Cersei fucking Jaime but Jaime fucking Cersei.

My read on this is that Joffrey sees his mother as weak for allowing herself to be seduced by Jaime, and sees Jaime as a lecherous seducer who is the cause of all his problems. If only Jaime hadn't seduced his mother, maybe his parents wouldn't hate each other. His claim wouldn't be under question. His mother should have just taken the abuse and bided her time instead of putting herself in danger and having bastards.

He loves his mother. He loves his father. And that's the human heart in conflict with itself that resides in Joffrey. Does he honor his mother, the only parent he has, or does he honor Robert, the patriarch he is supposed to emulate? If he has no other example of what strength looks like, is he even capable of figuring out a different path for himself?

[daenystheedreamer]

Cersei is problematic because she's mean

[melrosing]

who do you think jaime didn't tell cersei and tyrion about aerys? is it because they already don't blame him?

I think it’s a few things??

Firstly, there’s the fact that Jaime hasn’t told anyone before Brienne, not just his siblings. He doesn’t like having to explain himself to anyone: if people have assumed the worst, he resents the expectation that he should beg for their understanding. If they’re so shallow minded, why should he tear himself to pieces trying to win back their esteem?

Then I think he also suspects that if he did try to explain, they wouldn’t believe him anyway - the trappings of the KG and House Lannister are such that many would judge Jaime by his supposed allegiances before Jaime as an individual, and there’s nothing he can do about that. And I think that’s part of what ‘by what right does the wolf judge the lion?’ means - both sides have blood on their hands, why should he submit to their judgement?

all this gets away from the fact Jaime hasn’t told his siblings but I think it’s the context - Jaime has tried to convince himself he doesn’t owe anyone an explanation, he doesn’t care what anyone thinks. and as for Cersei and Tyrion, I don’t think they care what his reasons were either way. Cersei is not impressed by moral grandstanding, and would probably be MORE impressed by the notion of Jaime killing Aerys for the sake of House Lann (rather than the city). But by and large she doesn’t care about Jaime’s inferiority, and Jaime is happy to pretend to be whatever she wants him to be, so that’s that.

And for Tyrion, idk, I think he just loves Jaime pretty much unconditionally (even now I think he still does), and Jaime’s motivations in killing Aerys just wouldn’t matter much to him. He might be kind of impressed by the moral reasons Jaime did it, and probably even surprised… but Tyrion is a pretty Machiavellian kind of guy himself, I don’t think he’d think there’s much wrong with just taking Aerys out for Tywin’s sake, either. And I think Jaime is more or less content to be an uncomplicated figure for Tyrion, because Tyrion already accepts the rest (I.e. his relationship w Cers) without question. They never seek to explain themselves to one another. EXCEPT that one time.

So the difference w Brienne (you didn’t ask but I’m thinking out loud now) is primarily this: Brienne is not a hypocrite. she walks the walk, allying herself purely to what she believes in, which is ofc true knighthood, and all this with no ulterior motive. and somewhere deep down, Jaime holds the same values as she does. so by virtue of this, her esteem means something to him. he thinks she could see him with unclouded vision, and wants to know what she’d make of him if she did.

the Lannister siblings do not really hold the same values as Jaime, nor can they see him w unclouded vision, nor are they really interested in understanding Jaime in this way, so that’s why I think he doesn’t tell them.

[nedseii]

Your art is amazing! Can you please draw some modern Ned and Cersei? 💕💕💕

For you nedsei believer 🙏💖💖

[joanna-lannister]

3x06 // 8x05

requested by anonymous

[mothmage]

brienne and jaime are both just so gender. like you have one of the most beautiful knights in the realm, fair and golden-haired, who looks in the mirror and sees his twin sister, who has always done her bidding and centered his life around hers, who doesnt know who he is without her, and then you have the maid of tarth, the ugliest woman in westeros, who’s always been too big, too tall, too bulky, dreamed of being a knight while stifling dreams of being loved, being thought beautiful, who thinks her only good quality is her skill with a sword and even that has been an embarrassment to those around her, an oddity, something to laugh and jeer at. i just — it isnt even that they subvert stereotypes, its that they both allow each other to be nothing more or less than what they are, and everything that entails

[franzkafkagf]

top 5 most tragic grrm characters?

ohh such a wonderful question! ♡

Theon Greyjoy

When Theon says he shouldve died with Robb at the Red Wedding... rarely did I cry so hard. For one it shows that he has given up at life ever becoming better—his entire having been worn down by Ramsay. It also shows his genuine remorse towards the betrayal of the one person he loved most in the world. The worst thing about it? Theon has no one to blame for it but himself. This line is the final admission that he fucked up, and that what has been broken can never be mended again.

2. Catelyn Stark

No, don’t, don’t cut my hair, Ned loves my hair. Catelyn's chapters just get sadder and sadder until the end. She loved her children so fiercely; and yet that blind devotion and love for them ends up causing so much death and destruction. Catelyn was a good person, whose only goal was to save her own and serve justice for her husband's death—her intentions were good, and yet she dies in the belief that her children were all dead and that all hope was lost.

3. Aegon II Targaryen

Aegon is a hard one to pin down for me because he is certainly tragic, but we don't know him the same way we do the POV characters. But it fits perfectly; he was forced to take the throne against his will, and when he accepts it and finally finds some sort of drive and purpose, his peace is cruelly snatched away from him in the form of the murder of his son. After that it's just a continuous downward spiral—he is burned and unable to walk, he runs away and while he is in hiding he hears of everyone he ever knew dying. He quite literally lost everything but his daughter— and even she he didn't get to see again; dying before being able to. He quite literally was both made and destroyed by the weight of a crown he never wanted. I think I'd sell my soul to get a few POV chapters from Aegon... imagine.

4. Elia Martell

Left behind with her babies by her husband, the man that was supposed to protect and care for them. Her death was so cruel—having to see her children die and then be brutalized herself. She had only ever been a dutiful wife and mother, and Rhaegar paid her absolute dust. The realm didn't deserve her. Need Aegon VI to be real so he can take revenge for how they treated his mother. And what for? Why did this poor woman do? What did she have to pay for? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. All that happened to her happened in service of a dusty and aged prophecy.

5. Cersei Lannister

She had been doomed by her own flaws from the very beginning. She grows up wanting to be something else than what she's supposed to be. This noble girl with a bit too much ambition, more than what's good for her as a girl in that world, certainly. The prophecy she holds onto promises riches and greatness, but also spell her eventual doom. This is the end of her—she sees a threat in everyone and alienates the people that could've actually saved her from the tragedy she has imposed upon herself.