#canto viii

[friendofoyster]

Dream of the red chamber or something idk i havent read it

[sleepyminty]

Cant wait for don ‘was gifted a loving father’ quixote/sancho acting skill put into test against hong lu’s horrendous family

[calitsnow]

Hi 👋 I've seen your theories on limbus company and I'd like to have your opinion on the chapter 8 ? Did you watch the live ? Any theories so far ?

Hi! First, thank you for the ask and sorry I took a long time to answer !

I did watch the live and it was super interesting but of course what I was the most interested in was the preview image for Canto VIII. And so of course I have some things to say regarding this image:

Firstly, regarding the original title, I’ve already seen many people mention the direct translation of the Korean title, which would literally give something like: “There is no other choice but to look.”

If we were to adapt it to make the sentence sound more natural in English, it would be: “I have no choice but to look.”

수밖에 없는 is a grammatical structure often used to express the lack of choice or alternatives.

We can’t help but draw a parallel between this phrase and Hong Lu’s situation: Hong Lu has no choice but to observe and accept his situation and what happens to him. It emphasizes his lack of choice and personal will, as well as his inability to act upon it.

The use of a verb related to the sense of the view is always amusing when talking about Hong Lu.

Now, looking at the English title: “The Surrendered Witnessing”, I think it can be interpreted this way:

Hong Lu is the surrendered one: he is the one who has yielded, abandoned, and submitted.

Thus, he now merely observes and accepts what happens around him, as well as what happens to him/what he is asked to do, etc.

Strangely or not, I can’t help but think, when reading these two titles, of a very important Taoist concept for the character Jia Baoyu: “wu wei” (无为).

In Taoist philosophy, wu wei is often translated as “non-action” or “effortless action”. This does not mean total inaction but rather a way of acting in harmony with the natural flow of things, without forcing or resisting. It’s the idea of letting things unfold naturally.

However, if this concept has been corrupted by the influence of Hong Lu’s family and, in a way, by the tone of Limbus Company’s world, we can quickly see how this concept could have been distorted and used to shape a docile Hong Lu who relies on this idea of non-action to accept and justify what happens to him and what he has likely endured for a long time.

Perhaps this is even the famous concept Faust mentioned, which Hong Lu relies on to avoid breaking down and distorting. After all, if one considers it normal to act and respond according to the influence of one’s surroundings (for Hong Lu, his family) and to accept this as self-evident in a way, then it is probably easier to live with such a situation. But if this foundation is questioned, then everything Hong Lu has accepted and endured is also called into question, inevitably leading to the question: “Then why did I endure all of this if not for that reason?”

Of course, Hong Lu’s character makes it easier for him to accept this vision, and his upbringing and naivety undoubtedly play a role.

As for the Chinese phrase on the right 不思观望: it could be translated as “Do not hesitate or wait and see,” or, to elaborate, “Avoid overthinking and hesitating.”

• 不: not —> mark of negation

• 思: consider / think of / long for / miss / think

• 观望: wait and see, watch something from the sidelines (waiting without taking action)

It seems to respond to the title and directly contradict it.

It appears to encourage taking action and not waiting, emphasizing avoiding overthinking or remaining in passive observation.

Is this the influence of Lin Daiyu?

Regardless, it seems to be adresed to Hong Lu and to invite him to break from this mechanism of « non-action » and to move forward / take action.

Then, if we look a little at this teaser image itself, we can see Hong Lu’s house, his mansion, still in these red colors but appearing much larger and more imposing than I would have thought based on what we could see in his EGO. But what we see in Hong Lu’s EGO might just be an interior part of the mansion.

The mansion indeed seems “closed” and surrounded by walls protecting it from the outside.

Finally, this turquoise luminous mist surrounding the mansion is quite interesting because, first, it obviously evokes the idea that this place is a lost illusion, created through an illusory fog.

The fact that its color is close to that of Hong Lu makes me wonder if this illusion is maintained somehow through Hong Lu’s existence or presence.

Potpourri of small ideas and theories (The first 4 are more affirmative than the others):

1. A theory I’ve had for a long time: Hong Lu actually ran away from his home in our world, and his family is looking for him.

2. Recovering the golden bough won’t be the hardest thing and might even be given to us by Hong Lu’s family in exchange for his return.

3. The golden bough will be located at the center of the mansion in a place called the Prospect Garden —> a place where Jia Baoyu spent part of his childhood/adolescence with his maids and cousins.

4. Hong Lu’s EGO phrase will change to: “Let’s go visit the Paradise of Truth” (the new name for The Land of Illusions during Jia Baoyu’s second visit at the end of the novel).

5. Hong Lu is (linked) to an abnormality (maybe Yin and Yang).

6. Does Hong Lu have a connection with the Moonstone?

7. Does Hong Lu bear the Mark of Cain? (Yes, I want to know which other sinner(s) have this f*cking mark. Sonia hinted at it!)

8. The fairy-like abnormality will appear / be relevant for this Canto to make a parallel between the fairies from Dream of the Red Chamber and the ones from Limbus Company. They also share a color palette similar to the one of Hong Lu’s left eye.

Thank you for the ask!

[iglowshroom]

Alright, quick canto viii prediction with mild canto vii spoilers below the cut. Tumblr deleted my last one for no apparent reason, so here we go again.

First, can’t you just smell the familial trauma? The most obvious thing you notice in the conversation he has with his little sister is his complete ignorance of all her concerning statements. Some people theorize that he’s acting and secretly smart and manipulative, but I highly doubt that. See, the way I see it, his obliviousness isn’t him being dumb or putting on an act, it’s a defense mechanism. Every interaction with his family indicates high pressure to gather power, to make the strongest faction, and to take out the competition if need be. That would be an incredibly stressful upbringing, especially if (as I suspect) his parents weren’t any better. I doubt anyone who raises their kids like that would show affection, and in that vein they’d probably be emotionally neglectful at best and abusive at worst.

Now imagine baby hong lu. Someone who by some miracle, managed to get a very sweet personality who’s desperate for affection or praise. So he’d pretend it’s normal. Of course his parents and sibling love him, that’s what love looks like! It’s totally normal for your family to expect you to fight to build power and a faction. Accepting that isn’t normal means accepting his parents don’t love him. Accepting that your parents, guardian, or really anyone you trust was hurting you is hard. I think his canto will be about his familial trauma and his past, more specifically becoming less oblivious.

Anyways, let’s see how wrong I got it! Best of luck to everyone with pulls for the new ids. Please debate me via reblog or add on with your own thoughts on hong lu.

[the-ancient-comedy]

[pablo-moneyscobar]

Omg imagine the Lamachanders but it's WxS. I NEED a Nicolina Emu 🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏

What if Tsukasa and Donny met...

Oh god I can already hear them

seriously tho my minds been having both Limbus and Prsk brainrot like omgoghGHOIFAGAIOEGE

[melliae]

Hong Lu, An Analysis-Prediction

Before beginning, as always, I've to clarify something: I haven't read Dream of the Red Chamber. My best source of information are the thematic connections drawn in the Reddit sub of Limbus, and that only gives me a slight idea of what Project Moon may have in mind.

So, everything below here is complete and utter speculation based on my own knowledge and impressions about Hong Lu's character, Sins, EGOS, and Abnormalities. Beware, and feel free to comment your own opinions!

Now, let's go with the post!

What We Know

So, I think the best way to start this analysis is by recapitulating Hong Lu’s overall character so far. For that, we need to return to the first ever explanation of his personality: the “resume” given in the game page and during his presentation in Selva Oscura.

“As such, he has a certain admiration for a free life; but occasionally, he may make ignorant and unsavory questions in regards to the food cooked by a certain other Sinner or other aspects of the low-lives' lowly culture. [,,,] However, it is important to note that no sarcastic undertones are contained in his curiosity-driven inquiries, so it is ill-advised to let them get physical over it.”

As a general thing… It surprisingly holds up! Don’t misunderstand me, though. It isn’t that the description is perfect; it’s just not untrue. In fact, his first even line in the game, about Dante’s head being some sort of trend and not waiting for an answer, totally falls there. Similarly, there are several other moments showing Hong Lu’s innocence and naivety without any ulterior or hidden motive, from wondering if the casino workers of Canto II were trying to make the Peccatula their pets (likely because his grandmother collects weird animals) to unintentionally insulting Outis’ watch in Canto VI. I’d say the biggest proof of his lack of experience is the moment in Canto V where he adjusted the LCCB badge of a pirate that very obviously wasn’t a member of Limbus. Though all of his weirdness may derive from the fact that his elders—which are weird as hell—are his point of reference.

Now, since his most notable trait has been explained, we can move into the discrepancies of the description, and the biggest one is mentioned at the end: that under Hong Lu's comments there is no sarcasm—which is a complete lie! This man is a menace, and the Sinner’s experiences in District 20 during To Claim Their Bones and Canto VI shows it, from agreeing with Caiman’s assessment of LCB to joining Nelly’s teasing, including his lines while helping Heathcliff with his appearance and clothes. But arguably, my favorite example of this is the horror story he told during Canto V that scared Sinclair and which he only finished when the latter ran away. Don't tell me Hong Lu was being innocently insensitive back there: Sinclair was visibly shitting bricks, and the pretty boy here is keen enough to masterfully play the most compassionate and kind member of the League of Nine.

“Brother Young-ji was a man of kindness. He was not one to rashly harbor spite or reproach for others. You resemble him in that sense.” - Yi Sang, Blossoming League of Nine Littérateurs, Canto IV.

Though I suppose the difference between them is that Hong Lu clearly has a more optimistic and fun-loving attitude. This is an obvious trait that he has had since his childhood, when he played with and complained about his “cheating” siblings, sneaked into the dining hall of his manor for snacks, and simply didn’t follow his family’s rules. But since we know his family is extremely strict (if not outright sadistic), this sanguine streak may have developed (or gotten worse) as some sort of defense mechanism, which is seen better with Wakashu Hong Lu and his “lack of manners.” In fact, all of his Identities show an unnatural or improper calmness about his situation, no matter how horrible it is.

Another thing to highlight is his inquisitive, curious, and surprisingly understanding nature. While most of the examples above, especially him playing Young-ji, are proof of that, as it plays very well with his sheltered life. But I want to point out the best and most recent example of Hong Lu’s surprising contemplativeness: Time Killing Time. In particular, the most important scene is near the end, when Rodya and Hong Lu discuss his motivation to pursue the Time Reaper:

“I... just wanted to understand. Because, to me, the world was full of things I couldn't understand. In truth, I still understand so little of it. Why do people hang on so desperately to something like time? Something so... ephemeral?” - Hong Lu, Chapter 15: The Final Problem.

It’s normal to assume Hong Lu’s words are solely referring to the miserable monetary system of T Corp., but I don't think that’s all. We know that Hong Lu and Xinchun are well acquainted with the “immortality of the mind” the elders of their family are obsessed with, and what is immortality but infinite time? Thus, what Hong Lu asked there was why people hang on to the erroneous belief that life should not move or change, remaining constant and hence perfect for the rest of eternity. Yet, that isn’t what life truly is, right? It’s not for nothing that Hong Lu’s introductory quote is that “life has its vicissitudes as jade has its flaws,” which conveys his philosophy of detachment perfectly.

“When you’re distraught, simply remember that life goes on even if what you’re doing now doesn’t work out. Then, you’ll be free of worries.” - LCB Hong Lu

However, while the idea of detaching oneself from the whole without renouncing loving it is respectable, the way in which Hong Lu lives it is far from perfect, because detachment is not about carefreely admitting you will just simply gather the remains of your sister in case she is mutilated or readily accepting a horrible death just because you don’t mind dying. Even he himself admits from time to time, as with his jealousy over Heathcliff’s propensity to “ignore what he doesn’t like” (Rooms Past the Door) or Rim’s capacity to fly freely. In fact, one may even say that he hasn’t become detached at all, because doing so implies the complete acceptance of the “jade’s” beauty and flaws; Hong Lu, however…

“A thousand hours… Will a thousand hours have passed in the blink of an eye? [...] Then... I like that. Rip my time away.” - Hong Lu, Chapter 14: The Clock Tower of Fear, TimeKilling Time.

He has become detached from life altogether, and how could he not with the disaster that his family is? That likely was his only way to survive in such an environment, and unlike the rest of the Jia, he doesn’t seem to have that lucky predisposition for resentment and hatred. Even when his siblings tried to kill him the first time, Hong Lu didn’t come to hate them; he fully understood them because that’s the kind of person he is, just like Young-ji. However, since he realized such a thing through his big heart, he’s now fully aware that he will ultimately and cruelly die by their hands thanks to his love. In such a case, what other option does he have beyond merely “dancing”? A joke here, a sarcastic comment there, and a final appreciation for everyone so nothing is taken seriously and causes dissatisfaction, no matter how dim his eye becomes.

So, as of the 5th Walpurgisnacht, Hong Lu’s character can be summarized as follows:

Has a friendly, compassionate, and understanding personality that clashes against the violent and strict nature of his family.

Became detached over his own life because he can’t bring himself to hate and hurt his family.

His carefree attitude and sheltered life lead him to not understand some of the social conventions of… anyone who still has some respect for their own life.

Has a certain sarcastic and teasing streak, likely originating from both his personality and ideology.

There’s 1 aspect remaining that I didn’t mention above because I think it’s better to analyze Hong Lu’s EGOs first, to see what else we can rescue before giving a sort of “conclusion.”

About EGOs

Before any of you ask, no, I will not analyze Land of Illusion here; it’s best reserved for the next section, about Hong Lu Base ID. Instead, the first EGO I’ll deal with is, fittingly, the first one he ever received: Roseate Desire.

Roseate Desire originates from Pink Shoes, an Abnormality that evidently is an Aberration of Lobotomy Corp.’s Red Shoes, with their shared meaning being that of a single-minded and very violent obsession that’s impossible to resist—one of the purest expressions of Lust. But while Red Shoes and its EGO are fundamentally egoistic, not wanting to share the glory and pleasure of their desire’s fulfillment, Pink Shoes and Roseate Desire are of a softer shade, spreading their overwhelming lust to as many people as possible. The difference becomes clearer when you compare Rodya’s and Ishmael’s respective obsessions: the longing to be special vs. the desire to kill the “source of all evil” in retribution for all she has done.

Applying the former logic to Hong Lu, we can conclude first that he has a desire as strong as Ishmael’s hatred for Ahab, which is quite unexpected for someone who has basically given up on life! Thankfully, the Sin resources his version of Roseate Desire costs tell us a couple of things about his “fixation”: 4 Lust and 2 Envy. The dominance of Lust is self-explanatory, so that leaves us with Envy, which I commented on in the previous section: jealousy over those who can ignore and escape their problems—those who are “free.” Yet, since Roseate Desire and Pink Shoes are characterized by a sort of collective hedonism, so is Hong Lu’s wish to escape his family. Surely such a thing will bring joy to his cut-throat siblings.

And speaking about escapism, Hong Lu’s next two EGOs are all about that, beginning with the one whose Abnormality I analyzed in one of my previous posts: Dimension Shredder.

While Wayward Passenger is an Abnormality that is clearly about the trauma inflicted by W Corp.’s method of operation, it has a secondary meaning that Project Moon uses for its EGO too: being trapped in a horrible duty, necessity, or “path” that makes the individual envious of the life and possibilities others hold. This is best seen with Outis’ Dimension Shredder due to the Envy affinity, though Hong Lu’s Pride version isn’t that far off thanks to the Sin costs: 3 Pride and 3 Gluttony. Basically, it means that Hong Lu is “lost” due to external necessity, by things he can’t control (i.e., his family), but instead of resenting it as any other person would do, he takes pride in that, in having to follow a “terrible path,” because that’s the type of person he knows he is—the kind and understanding one that sacrifices himself.

The second EGO about escapism originates from LobCorp and hence from an Abnormality I haven’t analyzed: Soda and Opened Can of WellCheers, respectively. The two come from a Korean urban legend about people being drugged through juice cans and sold to fishing boats as slaves. Needless to say, the parallels with Hong Lu’s Soda are more than obvious: an envy born from a necessity (Gluttony) that grimly (Gloom) pushed him into a role he doesn’t want. Alternatively, and considering the ending of the Abnormality’s story log in LC, it’s the fulfillment of a fantasy born of jealousy, sadness, and necessity, though that doesn’t explain the Envy affinity of the EGO. Either way, nobody can deny that Soda stands for Hong Lu’s “murdered” wish to flee his circumstances.

The next EGO luckily is from another Abnormality I analyzed some time ago: Ambling Pearl and Effervescent Corrosion. However, unlike Rodya, who keeps the Abnormality’s original meaning mostly intact (safekeeping the “pearl”/one’s meaning from the “filthy” outside), Hong Lu gives it a twist: it’s not about protecting his “life treasure,” but something else

“Faust: For instance, let’s say that Hong Lu held a belief he was certain would be an unchanging constant as he lived in the City. Or, it could be a hope for some other psychological sustainment that has supported his life. Hong Lu: …Hmm. Faust: If that support suddenly collapses in a massively shocking event that causes one to let their “ego” go, his mind would crumble, so to speak. Hong Lu: …Well, I could see that happening. [...] Hong Lu: Hm… I thought I knew, but I can’t seem to elaborate on it with words right now.” - Chapter 3: Hell’s Chicken, Hell’s Chicken.

Unlike Rodya’s desire to be special and her notorious inner conflict, which is reflected in how similar her Corrosion is to a broken Ambling Pearl, Hong Lu is much more secretive about his opinions, usually referring to his frivolous comments instead of using the great insight he has, according to Dante. Nonetheless, even if we don’t exactly know the “core belief” he holds close to his heart (though we should have a general idea at this point), we do know that his version of Effervescent Corrosion, beyond Gluttony or the desire to survive, requires Gloom. So whatever Hong Lu is hiding, it’s far from happy, as his Sin weaknesses further show after EGO usage: weak to Lust and Sloth, to love and inaction—to the idea of not protecting himself.

In a similar vein, Hong Lu’s next EGO is entirely about sadness, as it comes from Blubbering Toad, aka depression incarnated. However, Cavernous Wailing isn’t a Gloom EGO but a Sloth one, and whose Sin costs are Gloom, Sloth, and Pride. That’s to say, Hong Lu’s refusal to take action and the resulting self-pity (“A heart shaken by sorrow bursts… like this.”) are fed by his sadness, indolence, and distorted self-perception, an aggrandized mental image of himself as able to carry all his pain without problem.

“It goes like this. Any of our siblings who managed to survive on their own up to the age of thirteen in our household will probably be a-okay even if they were to be tossed out to the middle of the Outskirts! Hehe…” - Hong Lu, Chapter 20, Canto VII.

Finally, the last EGO is the newly added Lasso, which comes from Rose Hunter, and really, its Mirror Dungeon Encounter puts it the best: Rose Hunter is the one who makes sure all stories follow their natural course, their flow, and “he” is no exception; the Hunter is willing to get lost if that’s the story it must obey. Fittingly, Lasso represents the same idea of not resisting one’s “tale” or “myth,” going along with what’s written not out of indolence or apathy, but because it’s necessary, akin to the motif of the “fetters of fate,” for example. In that regard, their underlying archetype is the same as that of the Orphic Ananke, the deification of the necessity that created the universe, which can be best understood through the following aphorism: existence came to be because it exists. Or put it in a simpler manner: you must follow your nature because that’s who you are.

Hong Lu’s Lasso, in the same way as Faust’s, requires first and foremost Gluttony to work, for that’s the entire deal of the Abnormality. Then comes the Lust requirement, which implies this “work” is also done out of either love or a twisted desire, a mania for things to follow their assigned nature or role. The final Sin cost is the variable one, which for Hong Lu is Pride again, his aggrandized sense of self that drives him to fulfill his role without complaining, solely out of love and necessity.

So, with all the EGOs analyzed, we can rescue the following:

Hong Lu, more than anything, wishes to escape the situation he has been put in. He wants to be free behind all those frivolous and/or insensitive commentaries.

However, due to his upbringing, he “murdered” those wishes so to speak, and remains walking the path his family has put him by many reasons, chief among them his love for them and his distorted perception of his own self.

Thus, all that longing and yearning for freedom remains hidden, barely able to see the light of the day except in the rarest of occasions. That’s likely his “pearl,” the thing that he ultimately hides for his own survival.

About His Base ID and EGO

You know, I have always been curious about why people are so adamant about Hong Lu being depressed. No doubt he has depression at some level, but I don’t think it’s as severe as people normally think it is because his Base ID simply lacks any form of Gloom. This is in stark contrast to Sinners such as Yi Sang, Gregor, and especially Ishmael, since she has a Gloom Base EGO as well. But if such is the case, then what does Land of Illusion means, since it requires Gloom to be used?

However, I think it’s important to understand Hong Lu’s Sin spread first, his psychology in this particular possibility:

His third skill, that is, his most inward and deep trait, is Lust. This Sin placement is only shared with LCB Heathcliff, whose devotion to Catherine is quite literally a multiversal constant as per Canto VI; everything he does, he does it for Cathy. Thus, Hong Lu must have a similarly romantic or affectionate nature, and we know that he isn’t the type to stop “loving” due to the cruelty of a person; his reaction towards the attempt against his life says enough. He even tried to understand the Time Ripper at some level during TimeKilling Time.

His second skill is Sloth, an inaction that’s much shallower but no less decisive, so to speak. One can understand it as deriving from his much more encompassing Lust or Love, which is to say that Hong Lu refuses to take action or initiative in his life out of love and understanding, in a similar manner to how LCB Faust lets her every move be commanded by the Gesellschaft thanks to her need for self-realization.

Finally, his third skill, his most outward and shallow trait, is Pride. This position is only shared with the Base IDs of Faust (again) and Sinclair, although the former is the easiest one to understand: Faust is somewhat haughty without a doubt, but not egocentric or self-absorbed by any metric; she’s just socially naive and with a great deal of knowledge that tends to ostracize her by her own volition. Pride is, after all, the de facto Sin of distorted self-perception, of thinking you are more capable than you really are.

Again, all of this tells us what we already know: the kindness of Hong Lu, his indolence born out of said kindness, and the weight he alone bears on his shoulders. We can’t even say that he has a low self-esteem unless we include in that definition a “imposing limits on who you are,” which, yes, sounds right, but it leans too much in the territory of semantics for my taste. Furthermore, Hong Lu’s strange relationship with Gloom and sadness can also be contrasted with the Sinners I mentioned before, those with Gloom and whose Cantos are available:

Yi Sang was the living stereotype of the depressed person: cold, distant, unfeeling, dead inside, etc. Whatever you name, Yi Sang likely had it.

Ishamel’s emptiness and self-destructivity were well-hidden until her Canto, during which all hell was let loose.

And Gregor is possibly one of the most realistic approaches of all, as we can see with the flashbacks of his past during Canto I. Even so, he… well, remains somewhat functional (and I’m really stretching the definition there xD)

And don’t get confused. In this case, Gloom isn’t equal to feeling sad or being traumatized by any means; every Sinner has their own share of problems, and not all have Gloom. Sinclair had his family and town massacred thanks to Kromer's obsession with him, for example, and while I don’t doubt he feels a deep sadness and regret about it, he doesn’t have Gloom in his Base ID. The same applies to Rodya, her low self-worth, and her guilt about the fate of her neighbors, lacking any sort of Gloom as well. The most extreme and recent case of this is boss Sancho, who doesn’t have any Gloom skill at all, despite her character and story being more than fitting.

Therefore, Gloom, in the straightest sense and avoiding exceptions or little quips, refers to a deep-seated hopelessness, a melancholy that devours all dreams and hopes, causing one to become completely lost in life. In such a case then, it’s not that Hong Lu isn’t sad or, damn, depressed, but that he knows how to manage such emotions so they don’t overwhelm him as they do with Gregor, Yi Sang, or Ishmael. The same likely happens with his wish to escape and his jealousy, for he seemingly knows that no life is truly a “flawless jade.”

“In a way, we’re all ‘deprived’... and that can change a lot of things. Maybe there are things that we can understand only when we’re left with nothing.” - Hong Lu, Chapter 1: Wuthering Heights, Canto VI.

This self-control naturally falls in line with his inclination for Pride and Lust, creating a sort of “transpersonal” point of view that allows him to curb his emotions in order to understand others. It’s quite Buddhist or Taoist, no? This kind of detachment over life I explained before, I mean. In a way, it strengthens the theory of Jia family elders treating Hong Lu as a golden child, and while he doesn’t seem to really like the idea, he resigned himself to it.

“I can't do much about what I was born with~ To them... I was a gem of a child.” - Hong Lu, Liu Association South Section 5 Uptie Story.

He renounced all the transient things in his life, all of his wishes and sadness, in order to carry out his family’s expectations: the preferred family head candidate. And what is another form to call transient things? Illusions.

Land of Illusion is the culmination of Hong Lu’s hidden sadness, his yearning to escape that will forever remain out of his reach—or at least he thinks so.

“With this there is often, to a smaller or greater extent, a savior complex, or a Messiah complex, with the secret thought that one day one will be able to save the world; the last word in philosophy, or religion, or politics, or art, or something else, will be found.” - Marie-Louise von Franz, The Problem of the Puer Aeternus.

Hong Lu doesn’t believe himself to be a savior, naturally. But I cannot deny that it would be very much in character for him to imagine or fantasize about a world where he doesn’t have to fulfill his family expectations, where they can all be happy. That would explain the Lust cost of Land of Illusions, as well as the weaknesses to Envy and Wrath, which are a stand-in for the rejection of his innermost wish.

But alas, at the end, life has its flaws, and there’s no way Hong Lu will raise a fist against his family. Even if his survival depends on it, Hong Lu won’t defend himself because that would mean choosing and thus losing, and there’s nothing more terrifying to the eternal child than losing things. Death is a much more merciful and tempting possibility than acting and suffering.

“The puer aeternus very often has this mature, detached attitude toward life, which is normal for old people but which he acquires prematurely—the idea that life is not everything, that the other side is valid too, that life is only part of the whole existence. [...] So before he has gone down to earth, he already has the offer of death.” - The Problem of the Puer Aeternus.

In this regard, it doesn’t matter much Dante’s rewind or the actual existence of an afterlife. It’s the idea of death as a solution for a hard life, instead of confronting the problem itself, of standing up and withstand the uncertainty and pain of life.

AAt the end of his Canto, Hong Lu will have to stand up for himself and to carry on the pain. That's how a "child" becomes an "adult," or better said, an actual family head.

Post-Commentary

... Yeah.

To be honest, I don't know where the inspiration behind came for this. It just fell on me one day, like Faust's theory. But where I'm confident in that one, I'm completely lost in this post, especially because while the conclusion seems right (standing up to the abuse and expectations coming from one's family), the reasoning is somewhat flimsy? I don't know. I have the feeling that I'm retreating Canto VII's (and even Canto III's) story and themes somehow, though the similarities may be the reason of why Xinchun was introduced, maybe. That would make Don's confusion funnier xD

The final mentions of the puer aeternus (similar to the Peter Pan syndrome, but not quite) are due to how Hong Lu's character screamed "puer" to me, surpassing every other one. The fact his summary highlighted that he is a "bachelor" brought to mind this little quote of Marie-Louise's books:

“The two typical disturbances of a man wh ohas an outstanding mother complex are, as Jung points out, homosexuality and Don Juanism.”

If a man gets around too frequently, he'll obviously not get married. If he's gay, then even less reason to do so or look at women. In this case, the idea is not about the actual sexual orientation of Hong Lu (or the accuracy of the book's assessment), and more about highlighting his refusal to commit.

Also, as a funny note, The Problem of the Puer Aeternus has a fragment that's really similar to, from what I've gathered, the warnings the monks gave to the Stone at the beginning. Since the book also deals with the case of Saint-Exupéry and The Little Prince, there may also be something interesting regarding Demian (Limbus', not Hesse's).

Anyway, and repeating myself, if you have any other opinion or thought you want to share, feel free to do so! Similarly, if you notice any orthographical or grammatical error, let me know. It's difficult to see them, even when using several online tools...

[pedroam-bang]

Roberto F. Castro - Canto Bight Casino (2017)

[otacringe]

OH MY GOD THEY WERE FIGURES OF HER DAD AND BARI THE WHOLE TIME

[galakaz]

For an anniversary stream im disappointment they mentioned Nearly nothing about their other 2 games they made and their books (closest we got is Walpurgisnacht night having previous games id and the fact mili is doing a concert which will have Ruina songs)

[thedetectivesteve]

Detective Reviews #64 - Star Wars: The Last Jedi

[sinnerno8]

〜 "It's likely they're pretty similar. I've managed to regain an Identity too. I'm not sure how I'm able to access a mirror world without Dante's power, though." The likely answer was that the Stars had a system that allowed them to bypass specific requirements, but Ishmael couldn't fathom what. If Faust were here, maybe she'd have an answer?

"It's been kind of nice, though. Like a little vacation. No one trying to kill me constantly, no Don Quixotes or Heathcliffs rupturing my eardrums..." As much as she had grown attached to the other sinners in her own way, they could still grate her nerves sometimes. "A little bored though. Even if I find a job, I'm going to be reminded of why I chose to sail in the first place."

A mundane life just wasn't for her.

"I see." Meursault ponders the information briefly, recalling the brief moments in which he once spotted more of his allies wandering around the city.

That last bit of information is news to Meursault, however. "I seem to recall up to that point as well. A little further down the line, but not by much." He won't specify until asked, but he recalls their check-up, brief of an event as it was. "I assume our abilities must be around the same level, then? Even without Dante's presence, I seem to be able to use my E.G.O. with only a limitation on amount per day."

[weirdlookindog]

Michael Mazur (1935–2009) - The Inferno of Dante:

Canto VIII (The Tower, Phlegyas), 1996

source

[shaylogic]

reading a bit of Dante's Inferno for fanfiction and struck by this part in Level 5 Wrath (Canto VIII):

Think, Reader, if I was discomforted At utterance of the accursed words; For never to return here I believed. 'O my dear Guide, who more than seven times Hast rendered me security, and drawn me From imminent peril that before me stood,Do not desert me,' said I, thus undone; 'And if the going farther be denied us, Let us retrace our steps together swiftly.' And that Lord, who had led me thitherward, Said unto me: 'Fear not; because our passage None can take from us, it by Such is given. But here await me, and thy weary spiritComfort and nourish with a better hope, For in this nether world I will not leave thee.'

[nearer-than-the-eye]

LITTLE SAINT

listen Ahi giustizia di Dio! tante chi stipa nove travaglie e pene quant’ io viddi? e perché nostra colpa sì ne scipa?

"Ah, Justice of God, who heaps up such strange punishment and pain as I saw there? and why do our sins so waste us?" For Santino D'Antonio: John Wick's bitter ex, my most beloved villain, and whose name means sacred or little saint.

___

John Wick 2 may have come out nearly a decade ago, but being a Santino girl is a chronic condition. Cover and track list images are details from Caravaggio's Bacchus, and the epigraph is from Canto VIII of Inferno, translated by Robert and Jean Hollander.

Some extended thoughts about my process and choice of epigraph and cover under the read more!

This playlist mostly started because I was listening to "Young Caesar 2000," said to myself, wow, this would be a great Santino song, and put it alone on a new playlist. From there, for about a year, I'd throw on anything that particularly reminded me of Santino, songs that felt, not like they described him, but that they might narrate part of his inner monologue and feeling. Some John/Santino vibes starting slipping in there (almost inevitably), but I knew I wanted to keep things really closely tied to how Santino understands himself. I narrowed things down, did some ordering for the overall arc and (hopefully) smooth transitions, and here we are!

Essential to my understanding of Santino (and thus this playlist's formation) is NeverwinterThistle's Unholy Union and asuralucier's The Man You Want to Be, both of which you should absolutely run, not walk, to read.

I'll let the tracklist mostly speak for itself, but I hopefully captured Santino's arrogance and the fundamental emptiness and deep insecurity that arrogance covers. I really do think John is something real and true for Santino, in a world full of posturing, but he eventually cannot resist instrumentalizing John, just like everyone else. JW 2 is one of the JW movies most pessimistic about masculinity (if not THE most pessimistic), and the arc of this playlist would certainly be very different without Mitksi's "I'm Your Man." Which is Mitski's most pessimistic song about masculinity! So it all works out.

The title -- The fact that Santino's name means "little saint" has fascinated me since my first cursory google search that delivered this factoid, and I've always kept it in my back pocket when thinking about Santino as a character. He's always the little brother. His petulance and pettiness is so essential to his character, and it's, of course, what makes him such a great foil to John (who imagines himself as a rational actor, but has his matching streak of the petulance). Santino inherits all this splendor, and all he can do is try and claw out more and more. A petty saint, and certainly never a god.

Why Bacchus? -- Well, I was trying to get a good film still for the cover and eventually gave up, so then I went to go find something appropriately aesthetic for a playlist cover. I was going to do a Dutch Golden Age still life bc that's what I'm writing about rn and lushness (and rot) is so essential to Santino, but then I was like. this guy is Italian. SUPER Italian. Who's an Italian with dramatic shadows and lush still lifes? And thus Caravaggio. Bacchus because revelry, excess, beauty, ect....also the invitation of the painting--he's holding out the goblet to you, asking you to join him. But mostly because it's beautiful.

Why Dante? -- I KNEW this bitch had to have an epigraph from Inferno once I realized this was going to be a real playlist. I mean, speaking of pessimism! The Divine Comedy feels so crazy to read as a modern reader bc it's like. yeah all this suffering is God's perfect justice. That guy eating his own shit is part of the divine plan. Which, to me, lines up really well with my read on masculinity in the JW movies--perfect, unchangeable, and committing you to endless suffering.

Alright, let's really get into it. This tercet ("Ah, Justice of God, who heaps up / such strange punishment and pain as I saw there? / and why do our sins so waste us?") come early in Canto 7, as Virgil and Dante (our POV character and protagonist) leave the third circle of Hell, Gluttony, and enter the fourth circle, Avarice and Prodigality ("Why do you squander...Why do you hoard" is probably the most famous quote from this circle). If Santino was to end up anywhere, it would be in one of those two circles, so I enjoy that this is the point in the text Dante asks these two questions!

Speaking of: despite God's perfection, Dante sure loves to question what he sees in hell and then...not resolve those questions in any way. It's interesting to see that "who heaps up / such strange punishment and pain as I saw there?" is a question addressed to the "Justice of God" when. well. the Justice of God is the thing heaping up these strange punishments and pain!

Dante seems unaware of the paradox, here, which has a real resonance for me in the way Santino is just like, well, I HAVE to blow up your house, John! I HAVE to put out a hit on you after you fulfill the marker, John! But to point to the times he acted out of compassion (not calling in John's marker during his retirement) would completely undermine that logic. It says "there are some things more important than power," but if Santino acknowledged that, then he wouldn't be able kill his sister.

Dante can't walk through hell and say with his whole chest, "I don't think it should be like this, actually" and still trust and love God, so he doesn't. Santino can't believe "more power will make me more happy, our culture says so," and also consciously acknowledge that it's the culture under the Table (and his father!!! his god!!!) that has pitted him against his sister his whole life, that has instilled in him values that ultimately leave him empty. So he doesn't! And he dies trapped in that paradox.

And then that second question. "And why do our sins so waste us?" UGH. ugh. Dante. You fucking hit me hard with this one. This is the line that made me choose this tercet. There's so much to Santino, so much beauty, so much divinity--but our sins waste us. All that power is used only in pursuit of more power, and, in the end, he's destroyed by that pursuit. The first two lines of the tercet key into culture and the way we contort our selves to fit into culture, but this last line is just an exclamation of the tragedy. Why? we ask, and nobody answers.