#c3 theory

[wenamedthedogkylo]

I already said this in my other post but this really deserves to stand on its own and honestly I'm crying over it so it has to get written down somewhere, but when Bor'Dor took a pull from Ashton's pipe, the smoke turned into an image of him shooting a Fire Bolt at the janky, creepy, lovingly set up dummy that the Hells had made for him. The target that his own targets made out of admiration for him, out of affection, out of genuinely wanting to see him grow his potential.

Ashton's pipe showed that the greatest, most heroic moment of Bor'Dor's life was casting Fire Bolt at that target, and getting to celebrate it with the rest of the Hells. It was feeling accepted for the first time in his life. Feeling respected. Feeling like he belonged, like he and his magic belonged and weren't some horrible, dangerous thing that they would fear him for or would have a temple come and cart him away for.

These people—who he somehow either followed across an ocean or luckily ran into—who he specifically stayed with because he intended to kill them for sabotaging the Ruby Vanguard's plans. For killing "his friends" in Marquet.

These people were the ones he finally felt accepted by. Not the Ruby Vanguard.

He gave Ashton the first piece of mental relief and relaxation they'd felt in years, maybe ever. He gave them jerky, and made them fruit leather, and caught a little fish and had Prism Enlarge it to make sure they could eat. Was he telling himself it was just to ingratiate himself to them, to get closer so the knife would be easier to twist? When did ingratiating himself become "I wanted you to like me"? Did he have to keep convincing himself it was all part of the plan, that he didn't really like them, that he didn't want to keep them alive but he had to to get his revenge, that he could let them die at any moment and this wasn't just him getting attached because how could he get attached to people he meant to kill?

Did Bor'Dor realize, in the moment that he decided to try killing them in that cave, that the Vanguard had only ever seen him as a weapon? That his "friends" who'd died in Marquet (he'd watched Ashton throw some of their bodies out of the Hole just days ago) wouldn't have sought revenge for his death the same way, because he was nothing more than a tool for one man's schemes? Did he realize he had more in common with Orym who'd lost all his loved ones to Ludinus and Otohan and the Vanguard—with Laudna and her myriad of terrifying, beautiful magical gifts and her desire to do good with them—than he'd ever had in common with anyone in the Vanguard?

Is that part of why he just tried to run?

It didn't have to be this way!

Bor'Dor healed most of the group right after fighting the Taker. He knew that his Vitriolic Sphere probably wouldn't kill all of them, that they had health potions and could recover. He just needed to get away. Get away so that they couldn't come after him, and he didn't have to see how he'd hurt the only people who'd welcomed him into their hearts in years, and he could tell himself that maybe they did die and he'd fulfilled his mission, and could tell himself too that maybe they didn't die and he hadn't actually killed his only real friends in the world.

I saw you! In Marquet! You murdered my friends!

Was he really still angry at the Hells for killing Ruby Vanguard members? Or was he trying desperately to fight back against how much they cared about him? How much they had genuinely reached out and taken him in? How much it was going to hurt him to hurt them? Was he trying to cling to his original purpose, so that he could ignore how much it hurt to kill the first people who'd seen his magic and said "you're amazing" and meant it? Who'd said "can I try something", "what else can you do", "it's nice to know I'm not alone, because you're in the same boat as me"?

And when he gave up... when he didn't try to fight back... when he begged for the end because there was no point anymore...

The Vanguard wasn't enough to stay alive for. And he'd just betrayed the only people who'd ever completely accepted him. There was no point anymore. No point in fighting. No point in living. He was done. He'd had enough.

Bor'Dor Dog'Son deserves his peace. I'm glad he got it.

[exandrianpunk]

i've gotten to c2 e70 in my current mighty nein rewatch, and listening to Caduceus tell the story of how his family is tied to Melora (3:31:05) after everything we've learned through Downfall and especially what the Hells heard from the Matron of Ravens in c3 e109 got me thinking...

is the body that the Raven Queen had Clay, Stone, and Dust ask for Melora to help dispose of the body of the prior good of death?!?!?

they were given the task the day after her ascension, were told it was the body of a hero of the war, and "his body could not be maintained within a city for reasons that are lost, he had to be vanished"

the gods know there was someone else before the current goddess of death, but can only feel that loss in abstract without true memory of him. they all essentially knew something had happened and that the Matron was new but not the specifics. and at least a few of them seemed to not be all that fond of this newcomer

so my theory is that she wanted to use the burial of this hero as an opportunity to rebuild some familial bonds

the day after she came into being the Matron of Ravens essentially went to Melora and said "hey i have a super special body of a war hero that i need some help dealing with, any ideas?"

and the Wildmother turned his burial into gifts for three of the other gods in turn: to remind the Changebringer that nature is infinite, the Archeart that nature is beautiful, and the Allhammer that nature is the origin of material

it makes sense to me that any mortally-accessible remains that would come from the death/replacement of a *god* would have some sort of magical properties to begin with, so that could've even helped jumpstart the temples that were created

anyways. that's just a theory :)

[childrenofthesun77]

...okay, so I'm probably not the first person to notice this.

But gear's earing that he points towards when he says that he did the same ritual he wanted to help kuro with already on himself before:

actually looks pretty similar to the pieces of the necklace the count used to create the servamps:

The different pieces of the necklace seem to contain one demon each and the count used them to create the servamps.

So...did the count either learn this technique from the werewolves or is he possible even originally a werewolf himself? It would explain why he's immortal, that's why I'm wondering about this.

Gear says that the ritual is used to remove spirits, could it be that the count removed his own sins using the werewolf ritual and created the demons this way? But he went too far and removed too much unlike gear who only removed one part of himself? Him removing the sins from himself would also explain why he's so weird and doesn't understand other beings. As the sin demons say, they are a natural part of being a human and we have seen multiple times that denying their existence is harmful, removing them all from you would probably lead to you not being able to relate to other people anymore.

Maybe removing all these parts of himself is also why he has no appearance. Without his demons he's not a person anymore.

The count originally being a werewolf would also explain why he has magical abilities (gear can also use magic) before other magicians existed and why he's so anxious about certain people dying. Gear talks about how his immortality makes him sad because human friends do die, but unlike the count gear seems to accept death, grieves in a heathier way than the count and is able to move on and make new friends. Could also explain why his magic and creations are all strongly tied to the (full) moon.

Another similarity is that while werewolves apparently can't reproduce gear was able to have descendants by sharing his life force (it's mentioned in chapter 135 which isn't translated yet) with a woman and through her human children tsurugi is related to gear. Sigurd explained to nicco that the magicians came to be because the count let humans drink his blood, three survived, got magical ablities and became the ancestors of all human magicians:

Maybe the count is more of a werecat though. He and the sloth demon do seem to have a closer connection, even though the count's appearance changes depending on the person looking at him he does usually keep his tail and the tip looks exactly like the one of kuro's cat/lion form and similar to the the one of inner sloth's non-human form.

It was also stated multiple times that the sloth demon is the strongest. I wonder why that is. Servamp comments on the fact that being lazy is often actually a sign of depression/anxiety through kuro's arc, so maybe the count was depressed and that's why the sloth demon is the strongest? Basically the demons strength depends on how much the count suffered from the different sins? It would also explain why melancholy is so strong, I assume kuro refusing to see him no matter how many siblings he sent his way to tell him to come looking for the count made him extremely sad and probably even made him come up with the plan to have himself be killed and then put in the same body as kuro through the ritual.

I assume he was behind C3 ordering the servamps to kill him because he's the one who created the magicians and thus C3 and lily who is kind of working for him was probably the one who put the idea that the count needed to be killed into the head of his eve (aka a member of the alicein family who hold a lot of power in C3 basically since the beginning. I explained this in more detail in another post). The people from C3 even said that the count can only be killed if he wants to and yeah, kuro didn't truly kill him, but he did destroy his body and kuro seems to have met little resistance when he attacked the count. Which probably means the count wanted this to happen.

[willowbirds]

Thinking about how Ruidusborns need an anchor to keep the dreams at bay, something that calms them.

Thinking about Imogen, who wants to stop her dreams, needing to find an anchor.

Thinking about when Imogen told Laudna that if she held her hand she would enter the dream with her.

Thinking about Laudna wrapping herself around Imogen the night they found the city on the moon.

Thinking about how losing Laudna was what let out the storm.

Thinking about how Laudna can be that anchor for Imogen, the anchor that calms her and keeps the dreams at bay.

[the-littlest-goblin]

I am the least qualified person to articulate this analogy (i.e. have not taken a single physics class not even in high school) but I am Thinking about the Luxon and Predathos and Tengar and antimatter and black holes and nuclear reactions and and and and and

[hello-eeveev]

thinking back on old fandom discourse is so funny. like, I remember when the dnd beyond presidential campaign ended with the “bi-presidency” and I thought that was funny, but then I went online and saw tweets or comments on the youtube video saying that it was not funny and that liam o’brien (specifically him, not sam) was queerbaiting cr viewers AGAIN he always does this and so actually he’s a bad ally and a bad person and he should be ashamed of himself >:(

and now, 5 years later, I just want to say:

yeah, the bi-presidency thing was pretty funny

[12pt-times-new-roman]

I do want to point out:

Ludinus knowing Laerryn's name is not, in and of itself, proof that he was alive during the Age of Arcanum.

Laerryn was on his list of "people to reach out to." But this document was in his home in Molaesmyr, a city he arrived in 500 years post-Divergence. Why would he keep that document, knowing that Laerryn fell with Avalir and that her body was irrecoverable? Why would it be pinned on his wall like it's important, over 500 years after Laerryn's death when speak with dead is off the table?

We know that Avalir itself is known about in present-day Exandria by esoteric scholars and specialists. Imahara Joe has a book that talked about it, so it's not like it's completely forgotten, and honestly, the entirety of the Ring of Brass were so involved with Avalir's internal politics and inner workings that there's no way their names weren't written down a hundred times over in various records, reports, and news clippings. It's not out of the realm of possibility that Ludinus was able to get ahold of this information, especially with Laerryn being so prominently involved with Avalir's most intricate arcane mechanics and experiments.

So I think that this list was of people Ludinus wanted to contact using the contact other plane spell. It reads as follows:

You mentally contact a demigod, the spirit of a long-dead sage, or some other mysterious entity from another plane. Contacting this extraplanar intelligence can strain or even break your mind. When you cast this spell, make a DC 15 Intelligence saving throw. On a failure, you take 6d6 psychic damage and are insane until you finish a long rest. While insane, you can’t take actions, can’t understand what other creatures say, can’t read, and speak only in gibberish. A greater restoration spell cast on you ends this effect. On a successful save, you can ask the entity up to five questions. You must ask your questions before the spell ends. The DM answers each question with one word, such as "yes," "no," "maybe," "never," "irrelevant," or "unclear" (if the entity doesn’t know the answer to the question). If a one-word answer would be misleading, the DM might instead offer a short phrase as an answer.

Personally, I think that Laerryn would most definitely count as "the spirit of a long-dead sage," as would most other pre-Calamity archmages (which I can only assume Vishtaron and Vatora were). The spell is on the wizard and warlock spell lists, so it's entirely within the realm of possibility for Ludinus -- plus, it even plays into his particular flavor of anti-theist magic, since it's essentially a non-divine version of commune.

[wenamedthedogkylo]

Sorry for the delay in replying, I've needed a few days to process and think (and deal with IRL stuff lol). I definitely feel like some kind of time shenanigans have happened thanks to Ludinus mucking with things and pulling them forward. But I think what we're seeing with Team Issylra is less a result of time-wimey nonsense and more that, in shifting over from Team Wildemount, we're literally rewinding narratively so that we can see what Orym, Laudna, and Ashton were doing at the same time as Fearne, Imogen, Chetney, and FCG. So like if Team Issylra were to scry on Team Wildemount right now, they would see them out in the Crystalsands Tundra trying to get to Uthodurn, cuz time-wise that's where they would be.

But that doesn't completely preclude time shenanigans. I'm obvs not an expert in dunamancy or its chronomancy subcategory, but I feel like you can't just move an isolated area of the world forward in time without there being some sort of side effects for everyone else.

You're definitely correct, the whole battle at the Malleus Key took place right as the solstice was starting, and Ludinus fast-forwarded the dig site and everyone there to the apex of the solstice so that he could speed things along. After that, the solstice was only supposed to last 3 days, but by the time Team Wildemount got to Uthodurn and had talked to the Diarchy and the people at the Vellum Steeple, the solstice had been extended several days past its original expiration.

What stood out to me was Elder Abaddina calling the solstice "extended" when technically speaking, where they are in the timeline, it's still well within the bounds it should have fit in. In fact, where they are now, the solstice should only just be about to end. So it's strange that she's already calling it "extended". There's a couple possible explanations, of course. One is that it was just a slip on Matt's part, an accidental moment of GM brain slipping in and giving this NPC a little knowledge they shouldn't have. It happens, he's human.

But Matt's also generally pretty particular and purposeful as a GM, so there's an equally good chance he said exactly what he meant to say as Abaddina. So that then begs the question, how does she know the solstice is extended when it hasn't yet hit a point that would qualify it as extended? Maybe the elemental Eidolons she communes with have told her it's gonna be a longer solstice than usual. Or maybe there's something else at play here. Something in the timey-wimey division. 👀

The 4-Sided Dive from yesterday (which I'm watching now) brought up a great point that I think might be related, which is that Deni$e, Bor'Dor, and Prism all heard Ludinus's monologue, as did everyone else in Hearthdell apparently. And yet apparently no one that Team Wildemount encountered had heard that speech. And I'm trying to remember myself, but I don't recall Deanna or FRIDA or anyone in Uthodurn mentioning hearing a voice in their minds. Maybe it's timey-wimey nonsense? Maybe it's that the city is under a mountain and that blocked the speech? It can't be distance, because Prism was also on Wildemount and heard it before getting shunted to Issylra.

Idk, you're definitely right though in that a few things aren't adding up, and I'm very excited to see what the explanations are!

ok I'm not sure I really have enough dots yet to really connect them, but after following along with last night's episode this idea is tickling me in the back of my brain and I can't let it go.

I think both groups have gone through a time skip when they got shunted.

Here's why I think that.

Orym was smart enough to be worried about that and asked Deni$e if they got poofed the same day, but I don't think the really proves that some timey-wimey bs isn't happening to them, just that whatever timey-wimey bs happened to them all the same way.

Back in Utherdurn, the Diarchy and the mages all said that the Solstice has been extended beyond its normal time frame, that normally the Solstice last 3 days and it has now gone well beyond that.

Now maybe I'm mistaken but I was under the impression that the fight with Ludinus went down the moment the Solstice first began, like they got there just hours before the start of the Solstice hoping to stop things, but Ludinus pulled his timey-wimpy bs to make time move forward a couple of hours so he'd have a surprise advantage.

Even with factoring in Ludinus moving time forward and the fact that team Utherdurn took a couple of days to get to the city and get an audience with the Royals, something doesn't quite feel right about that time line. And now that we've gone back to this group and it's only been two days for them, and people around them seem to be talking like the Soltice has been around for more than a minute, something feels even more off.

I can't wait for the transcripts of this latest episode to see if I'm right about this

@wenamedthedogkylo what do you think?

[aeoris4lovers]

i think ashton’s got a big storm coming when we switch teams. and by that, i mean i think they’re about to get aggressively cared about, whether they like it or not.

i have a feeling that he probably won’t be doing so hot after the end of 51 — this is, what, the third time he’s had the experience of something going wrong and then waking up (mostly) alone? i can’t imagine those parallels would be lost on him, and taliesin said some stuff on 4sd tonight that seemed to suggest that ashton is going to be pretty solidly in “it’s happening again” mode.

and who are they with? orym and laudna. you know, two of the people in the party voted most likely to ignore their own problems by focusing on someone else’s (along with fcg, of course). orym is for sure having lots of bad feelings about not being able to stop otohan again and finding out his family died for what was essentially a test run, and when he’s not doing great, his main coping mechanism is to just focus on worrying about someone else instead. and laudna is definitely super worried about imogen and freaked out by not having her there, and i think she needs someone else to focus on and take care of now that she can’t give that attention to imogen. and god only knows they won’t be able to let that out on each other because then they’d actually have to think about their own shit.

so what are they going to do when they see that their other friend is having a certified bad time? they’re going to make that their problem and ashton is going to experience the full force of his two designated helper friends who not only genuinely care about him, but also really need someone to care about so they don’t totally lose their minds. and that’ll only be amplified if my other suspicion is right and that team starts delving into ashton’s backstory, because i have a feeling that’ll be...a bit rough.

i don’t know, i’d just really like to see ashton get a healthy dose of “everything is fucked but these people do in fact give a shit about you and they’re going to be so annoyingly insistent about it that even you can’t deny it.” i think it’d do them some good, and i think laudna and orym are arguably in the best position out of anyone in the party to give it.

the hells have been slowly chipping away at ashton’s walls for a while and it’ll take a long time for them to get all the way through, but i’d like to think the split gives orym and laudna a shot at making a really good dent.

[lady-shikibu]

Beacon lore from way back: the first time Caduceus looked into the beacon, he asked if it felt uncomfortable and Matt replied that "it doesn't feel unnatural. It feels like a view behind the curtain."

Pretty interesting that that's the feeling of Caduceus, arguably the most divinely connected person of any of the campaigns and the one who serves the Wild Mother, who is herself most connected to Exandria of all the gods.

Obviously it's pushing a bit to say that the Wild Mother feels ok with the beacons because Cad does, but if she'd disliked it then I think he definitely would have picked up on that.

On top of that, the "peak behind the curtains" description is crazy interesting. Curtains of what? I assume that Cad would think that it's a peak behind divinity, but that's such an inexact phrase!

Is it the curtains of divinity? Which would mean that the beacons are tied to the gods either through shared origin or shared power. Power enough that it can see beyond what the gods hide, but not enough that it discomforts the gods.

Or is it the curtains of creation? The gods came to already-created Exandria and made life. It seems from Ashton's most recent vision that the Titans made or were at least significant to the creation of the physical object Exandria, considering they were a sort of vessel through which Exandria gave it's "the earth abides" message.

If they're not connected to the gods, could the beacons have some connection to the Titans? I doubt it, because Aeor had a beacon (probably), and yet the Titans were still hanging around getting ready to cause trouble when Avalir fell. If Aeor had a beacon and were studying it to develop the things like the purple gems... But, then again, Aeor was not known for making wise decisions about where they got their secret, scary projects from. If the beacons are connected to the Titans in some way, Aeor would be all up in that. Make an enemy of the gods, make an enemy of the Titans, make an enemy of everyone!

If not the Titans and not the gods, it could be that the beacons are connected to what made everything, before there was an Exandria for the Titans and the gods, what was there? The Luxon?

"Behind the curtain" also lends credence to another theory I've seen going around that the Luxon as a whole is a meta-narrative, self-insert sort of structure for the game itself. Peak behind the curtains, peak behind the screen.

Ugh, too many theories, not enough information! But the fact that the gods view the beacon as a non-threat null-entity is really interesting. They have some knowledge of it but don't seem bothered with it, even though the beacons are sources of great potential and power.

[silentassassin21]

the amount that critters can't handle a character being even slightly morally dubious should be studied.

[wenamedthedogkylo]

So much of Bor'Dor's waffling back and forth about how far to go with the Hells, where to go with them, what their goals were... so much of it makes sense now.

Two eps ago, he'd gone and talked to Orym in the tree and said he was set on sticking with them and helping them out. Last ep, he said he wasn't sure he wanted to stay with them because he didn't want to die for them.

He had to try and stay close, even if that meant saying he'd help them with whatever their goal was. Even if that goal was killing Ludinus.

But he didn't want to die for these people who killed "his friends" in the Ruby Vanguard. Of course he didn't. He didn't want to die for people he was there to get revenge on.

He wanted to try and talk the guards of the temple away from the fight before it started, because maybe they didn't know (according to Bor'Dor's world view) just how much the gods weren't watching and didn't care. Because maybe they were smart enough not to try dying for a god that didn't care to try and protect them.

But he had absolutely no problem shooting a paladin/cleric of the Dawnfather in the back and then bleeding her out to summon a demon. Because she was devoted to one of the very gods that he felt had abandoned him and his mother. And he felt no remorse for ending someone who clearly had no compunctions about oppressing others in her god's name.

And... and Ashton's pipe couldn't lie. Even being a clearly very powerful mage, Bor'Dor didn't know what Ashton's pipe would do because Ashton hadn't told anyone what it did up to that point.

Bor'Dor's greatest, most heroic achievement in life was shooting that Fire Bolt at the practice dummy, and celebrating with everyone, and finally, finally, feeling a sense of belonging for the first time in his life. With the people who killed his friends and fellow Vanguard members. That must have fucking hurt.

I'm not going anywhere with this really, except that Utkarsh really played a character that, for me at least, has to be the single most tragic character on this show. And now that the adrenaline has worn off, my heart just hurts for him. It hurts that in the end, he didn't even try to fight back. He was done. He wanted peace. He wanted to see his family again. He was tired of fighting and watching people die and he was still just a scared young man who had watched people around him die in the name of the gods or in the name of killing the gods for his entire life, and he just... wanted to be done.

Enough.

[shiversdownyourspleen]

My new favourite member of Bell's Hells absolutely without question

[themightyvibe]

ok all of the references to the mighty nein have got me thinking about what they might be doing and my theory is that they're dealing with that firebird desirat or maybe that third earth-based demigod in the ukotoa legend.

[enby-andi]

Molasmyr is a fallen city where the ruins of Aeor are supposedly resting after the calamity. Molasmyr and the Saalivere woods have many disturbing variants of normal creatures (large amphibians, the fish, that fucking elk thing).

I get that magic was used to power the city...

But what if the ruins of Aeor are irradiated? Like Chernobyl? And they've been sitting for so long that they have caused mutations in the wildlife?

Cause here's my thing: when Fearne and Deanna got blasted in the last stream by the spewing miasma things, the effects sounded a lot like radiation poisoning, and couldn't be dispelled even though it felt magical. This is a world that's slowly coming out of the dark ages, they wouldn't know what radiation poisoning is because there is no such thing as radiation, only magic.

TL;DR: I think Matt is introducing science into Tal Dorei