#but not everyone is going to agree with me on what constitutes as harassment

[sparkling-pink-lemonade]

If the person you're responding/talking about (in your original post) didn't communicate that they are a minor in any way, you shouldn't be blamed for saying one very mild unserious sexual thing. Especially if this person was interacting/behaving in a sexual context (like posting in adult nasfw tags) first. Especially especially if you posted your response with nsfw tags as well. Also, you didn't speak to them directly. You made a very obvious joke in your own post that didn't have any connection to them or their blog. Minors cannot force their way into adult spaces and then have everyone start to complain that the adults are talking like adults. That's insane. The screenshots don't have that persons un or pfp. You weren't sending them dms telling them to their face that they should fuck you. Kids and teenagers say way worse and more sexual things than "block me harder daddy" on a daily basis. People getting mad at you about this are just virtue signaling.

I don't think they are inherently virtue signaling. It genuinely can be an uncomfortable topic/situation for some. And both anons approached the topic in a genuine and sincere way. So I don't fault them. But should someone else now try to convince a stranger on the internet to feel the same discomfort and disgust in their own actions, they sure can try, but shouldn't be surprised if the stranger chooses not to backpedal. And if they don't like that. Get mad and tell your friends about me behind my back, and block me. But it's not worth continuing the conversation against someone who made it clear they won't change their mind.

But yeah, I genuinely think it's more harmful to coddle teens from learning to handle uncomfortable situations or sexual humor. It's infantilizing and dehumanizing. I remember being a minor, a few months from turning 18 and having people who weren't even 19 yet feel too uncomfortable making a slightly sexual joke in my presence. And because of people like that, I knew people my age at that time frame who were way too prudish with discussing anything sexual at all.

On the topic though, I also got another anon who absolutely was virtue signaling. And since it's relevant, I can just address it here.

And it's like, first of all, being called smelly as an insult is genuinely funny. But it's just so ironic, because unlike the first two anons, this one absolutely isn't trying to have a genuine conversation here. In fact, seeing as it's an ask, and the language used, I was meant to see it and I was meant to be intimidated, not informed. It could technically be construed as harassment if I were to warp things enough. But I don't care enough.

It's interesting to note a few things though. Like how much this mirrors anti behavior. The use of a strawman, pedojacketing, and the idea of using moral purity to "exclude" me from a community.

Sexual harassment is not okay, whether it is is not the conversation being had. But since harassment is a social construct, the debate is whether what I said constitutes harassment. It's not a black or white issue, so with no definite line, I know that some people won't agree with my judgement, nor do I expect everyone to.

Plus... have I really misconstrued what it means to be proship if I don't believe what I've done to be harassment, and encourage people to curate their experience by blocking stances that make them uncomfortable?

I'm not even gonna touch the pedojacketing part, because I don't feel like making an essay on the definition and differences between pedophilia, csa, and csh on an already long post. Maybe some other time.

And lastly, it doesn't matter if anon claims me or not. No one has the power to gatekeep a label based community like proship. They will never be able to speak for all proshippers. There will be assholes, there will be people who use the label wrong, but you can’t decide for them that they are any less proship if they say they're proship. And trying to appear as though I'm not part of the community only serves to show other antis "See, we don't approve of that evil person over there. We are all good people, so stop spreading mean misinformation about us." And like... antis aren't gonna care. Unless you abide to their cult mindset, you're always gonna be the enemy.

[matan4il]

What's your evidence that Joost Klein harassed Eden at ESC? I've only seen evidence of Joost being harassed by Israeli delegation. And he was an assholeish idiot at the press conference but he wasn't the worst. And can people pleaaase stop spreading the smear campaign the EBU put out about him. He made a rude gesture, that's it.

Hi,

I'm gonna admit that if you saw the Dutch performer's behavior at the press conference, IDK how that doesn't constitute harassment? I mean, the part where he didn't like that the ESC organizers made him sit next to the Israeli singer, and he didn't want to be in the same frame with her, so he covered himself with the Dutch flag wasn't just being an asshole, he was publicly humiliating her, transmitting to everyone what a pariah she is, not based on anything she's said and done, but simply based on her nationality (and this little stunt was obviously going to attract attention, meaning he minded being photographed next to her, but he didn't mind being photographed covered up with the flag like that in the same frame with her, making it clear this wasn't him wanting to avoid political stuff).

In my book, that's bad enough, but then he added insult to injury. Eden was asked a disgusting question by a Polish journalist. He wanted to know whether she considered that she would be putting everyone else at ESC at risk (victim blaming much? Eden was the target of a violent mob besieging her hotel room, and turning her participation into an event requiring security. She didn't ask them to do this, she didn't force them to, she's a 20 year old girl, who has dreamt of representing her country at ESC for years, and when she finally gets to, she's being asked to carry the blame for the violence aimed at her due to her nationality... Imagine asking Ariana Grande after her Manchester Arena performance if she took into account that she was risking the lives of all of her fans, because an Islamist decided to use her event for a terrorist bombing that killed 22 young people, and would she never perform again, now that she was aware of the risk? No, that didn't happen, because it's a disgusting, victim blaming, terrorism-rewarding question). The panel host rightfully grasped that this was a political and harassing question, and told her she didn't have to answer it. Joost Klein then shouting at that, "Why not?" was harassment. He was piling up on the victim blaming, on top of showing zero empathy for a fellow performer targeted for her nationality, in a way he never would have agreed to be himself.

(I think that's last assessment is obvious since we now know he thought, even for a split second, that it was okay to threaten with fists a female camerawoman working for ESC, doing her job, filming the performers when they got off stage after their performances. This was done to the other performers as well, IDK what made Klein think his consent was needed in that moment, since to me it seems implied by agree to represent the Netherlands at ESC, but even if he had the right to refused being filmed, I have no idea what made him believe it was okay to use violent threats against an ESC employee).

I'd like to ask you where did you see "evidence" that Klein was harassed by the Israeli delegation? As far as I'm aware, there was only one vid trying to make that claim, and what was seen in that one, was an Israeli journalist (so, not a part of the performing team), working as a European correspondent (he also covered the war in Ukraine, to give you an idea of what that job entails, so he's a "respectable" journalist, not just a guy with a mic interviewing people for his ESC blog), called Dov Gil-Har (as far as I know, he's aligned with the left politically, so not exactly someone likely to be harassing people out of nationalistic sentiments), who was trying to ask Klein questions. Which... the last time I checked is his duty as a journalist. And Klein refused to answer Gil-Har's questions, which is his prerogative (though I do think it was pretty disgusting when some performers, like the Norwegian ones, refused to give interviews to any Israeli media outlets. Since it's based on nationality, it's once again hateful IMO), but then the Dutch team's manager (or whatever he was) really got in Gil-Har's face, and more than that, because I clearly heard Dov saying, "Don't touch me." Keep in mind, this was after Klein's shameful behavior at the press conference, and also after he missed a rehearsal that day, there were rumors circling around it somehow had something to do with Israel, so it is honestly the most natural thing for Gil-Har as a journalist, that he wanted to ask the Dutch team some questions. That should not have ended with him having to say, "Don't touch me," but to further misconstrue this as him harassing the Dutch team...!? WHAT?

It feels like another instance of DARVO, where the attacker/harasser/abuser shifts the fire away by reversing who was doing the harassment and who was being harassed. Everything we saw on camera was harassment of the Israelis, including even the media, while I've not seen one documentation on film of the Israelis harassing others. Plus, I heard the claim that the Israeli team was harassing everyone, yet we know that some performers didn't feel, act or express themselves that way.

(for all of my updates and ask replies regarding Israel, click here)

[ohtobeleah]

One Hit Wonder // Bob Floyd

Summary: Robert Floyd was a pacifist, he didn’t enjoy confrontation or anything that resembled an argument. He preferred to use logical responses and persuasive reasoning to identify situations that might not work well in his favour otherwise.

Warnings: Harassment. Mentions of pregnancy. Violence resulting in death. Bob Floyd x F!reader

Word Count: 4.1k

Author Note: Day Fifteen of Whumptober. Prompt I chose: Self Defense. Thank you to @ailesswhumptober for the prompt list.

Whumptober Masterlist | Main Masterlist

Robert Floyd was a pacifist, he didn’t enjoy confrontation or anything that resembled an argument. He preferred to use logical responses and persuasive reasoning to identify situations that might not work well in his favour otherwise. 

He wasn’t the most popular kid in high school. Sure he had his buddies, the odd teacher who’d check in on him from time to time to see how he was doing and the occasional overzealous cheerleader who’d try to wear his glasses on a dare. But the ever looming threat that was the majority of the school football and lacrosse teams still managed to shine through all Bob's weak safety nets. 

Knowing he didn’t have the constitution, the strength or the ability to protect himself against six or seven football players at any given time, Bob used his critical thinking skills and offered free tutoring for anyone who promised not to beat him up behind the quad on his way out. 

It worked in high school and all throughout university, it never seemed to phase him all that much during the Naval Academy though because everyone was there for the same reason. Every person on base had a shared interest. It didn't matter what you were eventually going to do—everyone was there for one special goal. To pass basic. So, for a while—Robert Floyd got to let his guard down. He got to just enjoy existing instead of trying to safeguard his existence.

“Is there a reason that you’re staring at me?” Bob didn't realise he’d spaced out until your voice was pulling him back from a perfectly designed world where he, of all people, got the pretty girl standing just a few metres away from him minding her own business. You were standing across the kitchen of his buddies flat. He’d just moved in and Bob was spending the weekend catching up before he was being stationed out to lemoore. 

In Bob's mind you were beautiful. He’d never seen such a beautiful woman before. And he really didn't mean to stare, but your laugh was like a siren call, calling him over to fall in love over and over and over again with the beautiful woman standing across the kitchen. 

“Do I have something on my face or is my top just a little too revealing and you have a perfect shot at my chest?” You were only being sarcastic, but it wouldn’t surprise you if the man with baby blue eyes agreed with your statement. 

But he didn’t, which was even more surprising. 

“Oh no–” Bob's eyes widened at your accusation, he felt like he couldn't breathe as he took a step backwards in a non threatening manner. “I just thought you had really nice–” Before Bob could finish his sentence, you were jumping in to finish it. 

“Tits?” 

“Eyes–” Bob corrected you immediately. He didn’t want you believing he was some sort of pervert before he even had the chance to properly introduce himself. “I think you have really nice eyes.” You had to smile to yourself a little at the sight of the obviously flustered man who stood across the small kitchen from you. He seemed harmless enough. “I’m Bob—“

“Y/n—“ It’s how the two of you met, in that dingy little apartment in that kitchen that couldn’t have fit more than three people in it at any one time. But Bob knew that you were going to be his wife someday—he didn’t know exactly how he was going to pull that trigger or how in the world he was going to get you to fall in love with him, but he knew. 

And you weren’t sure what exactly it was, but the way Bob made you feel effortlessly beautiful and naturally loved had you dropping to your knees to cup his flushed cheeks when he nervously asked you to marry him right after he got back from a mission he swore could have been his last. 

“You and the little guy are all I need.” Bob whispered against your lips when you kissed him so passionately it nearly knocked him off balance. “I love you so much, just wanna be yours till my dying days.” 

“Robert Floyd, you are my best friend, I love you so so much!” 

The wedding was set to be a pretty simple ceremony in a registry office. You didn’t want the fuss that came with a full disclosure wedding. It was supposed to be just you and Bob and your witness. Everything would have been perfect, simple and efficient. 

But then your soon to be husband was given his new posting, and that saw you and Bob packing up your lives in Lemoore to settle in North Island, where a whole new can of worms opened for the two of you. 

“You’re getting married!?” You knew it was Phoenix, Bob always spoke so highly of her. “Holy Cannoli I hope you don’t plan on going swimming with that thing on.” She teased as she took you into a warm embrace. “You’ll sink to the bottom.” 

“I’d been saving since we met.” Bob interjected as Phoenix stepped back and took in the sight of you. “We’re expecting in January, little guys coming around Y/n’s birthday.” 

“Bob—“ Phoenix cooed as you reached out to place her hand on your stomach, Natasha Trace was the first of the dagger’s to formally be introduced to you. “You never said anything.” The bird strike hit all the more harder now. Phoenix knew she carried precious cargo but now the stakes were even higher. Bob had a fiancée and a baby boy on the way. “Why didn’t you tell us, tell me?” 

“I just wanted to protect what was most important to me.” Bob answered quickly. He always kept you close to his heart, always. “Y/n here, she’s my best friend, always has been since she swore I was being a creeper.” You had to chuckle at the memory of the night the two of you first met. “But you guys, Fanboy, Rooster, Packback, Coyote—even Hangman but don’t go saying that out loud, are my family now too—and I want my family to know who’s the most important person to me.” Bob paused for a moment but both you and Phoenix knew what he was about to say before he said it. “Just in case something happens to me, you guys are gonna be her family too.” 

“We’ve got her Bob.” Phoenix cooed as she brought you in for a gentle hug once more. “It’s so  nice to meet you.” 

You had to take a second to really sink in the moment. These were the people who swore every day to protect your fiancé. These were the people he truly considered family. These were his people and in turn they were yours. And it truly sunk in as a rowdy group of men burst through the Hard Deck front doors. These were Bob's people. 

“I’m so happy to meet the woman who keeps my best friend coming home every night.” 

***~***~***~***~***~***~

“Well well well–” It was the Texan tone that gave the cock sure aviator away as he came up beside you. “I gotta say, you sure look mighty fine this evening, Mrs Floyd.” Jake cooed as he stood beside you, watching as you ran a gentle hand across your growing baby bump. 

“Thanks Hangman.” You chuckled softly as you watched your soon to be husband over at the bar with Rooster and Fanboy. He looked so happy, so full of life and excitement. “I feel like a blimp but I appreciate the compliment.” It had only been about a month or so since you had settled into your new surroundings. You and Bob would have loved to have been married by now, but the Daggers had other ideas when you had dropped the bomb on them that you were going to do an elopement style ceremony at a registry office. No fuss, no extra expenses, just the two of you and all the love you could possibly give one another. 

But here you were, at your joint Bach party that Hangman and Rooster had every so kindly set up for the long weekend. How in the hell they had managed to get the entire dagger squad the weekend off was beyond you–but nevertheless you were thankful for the experience. Even if you were pregnant in Vegas with a bunch of Naval Aviators running a muck in the casino. 

“How’s the baby on board going?” Jake asked as he hooked his arm with yours and walked with you over to the bar. 

“He feels like some fries and a virgin mango magatia if you're really wondering.” You smirked as Jake pulled out his wallet from the pocket of his jeans. He should have seen that one coming. “

“Coming right up.” Jake made sure you were situated up on the stool beside your soon to be husband before he left you to fetch your food. Bob couldn't take his eyes off you whenever you were in his proximity. He couldn't breathe at the sight of you in that bodycon dress. The white one that screamed bride to be. But the sash slung across your shoulder did that too, as did his own. Only his said Groom and wasn't as pretty on him as it was on you. 

“Hangman getting you some food baby?” Bob cooed as he kissed your cheek. 

“Yep, and my feet are killing me.” You sighed as you leaned in to rest your head on Bob's shoulder. “But I'm so glad we’re doing this, getting this opportunity.” 

“They're good people aren't they?” Bob didn't drink, but he had been nursing a rum and coke for about half an hour now. The ice had mentled and watered it down, which made it easier for him to sip on. “Reckon spuds gonna like them?” 

“Yeah, they are.” You agreed kindly as you watched Rooster and Fanboy carry on over tequila shots. “They needed this more than us, this weekend–but they did it for us.” Bob nodded as he let his hand fall to your stomach. “And yeah–Spuds gonna love them, but not as much as he’s gonna love his dad.” 

“You know husband and father were two things I thought I'd never be.” Bob admitted to you quietly as he kissed your hair on top of your head as you sat with him up at the bar, surrounded by drunk idiots ready to waste their money. “So thankyou for giving me the chance to become both.” You simply answered by picking your head up off Bob's shoulder and kissing him softly. He was the life of your life, your best friend, your life partner and father of your child. “I love you, my bride to be.” 

Robert Floyd was a pacifist, he didn’t enjoy confrontation or anything that resembled an argument. He preferred to use logical responses and persuasive reasoning to identify situations that might not work well in his favour otherwise. So as you smiled up at him and brushed his hair behind his ear, Bob was very in tune with the man off to the left of the bar who had been watching you ever since Jake had helped you waddle over. 

“You’re such a dork, I love you.” Your voice echoed around in Bob’s head as the hairs on the back of his neck stood to attention. His guy was practically undressing you with his eyes. But once again, Bob Floyd was a pacifist. So until it became a problem to worry about? There was no problem to worry about. 

“I love you more.”

***~***~***~***~***~***~

“PAYBACK!” You sat at the blackjack table with wide eyes watching as the daggers cashed in their chips. “You can't be serious, that's all your money!” Bob's hand gripped at your thigh beside you, he wasn't paying with much but he had a few chips to play. 

“Yeah and I could double it, mama.” The term of endearment was something the entire squad used. You loved it, it made you feel all warm and fuzzy and accepted by your Fiance’s friends. “And if I double it I'm giving it to you and Bob for the honeymoon you two are insistent on not having.”  

“We’re gonna have a newborn man, it's not the time.” Bob sighed, he’d tried to explain it a few times before now that the timing of it all wasn't right. The two of you would save for a rainy day and once your son was a little bigger, the three of you would go on a family holiday. “Keep your money.” 

“Yeah, it's really not necessary Payback, honest.” You smiled as you got up from your seat at the black blackjack table. “I'm gonna go pee, I’ll be right back, Bob honey will you text me if you guys move?” Bob was going to ask if you wanted him to come with you, he would have asked, but he knew what the answer would be. You were fiercely independent, and even a quick trip to the bathroom alone made you feel like you could take on the world. Especially now with a whole human growing inside of you. So, Bob nodded and agreed, he didn't bother to ask. 

“Course love.” 

Bob watched as you waddled away, the love of his life, his best friend, the mother of his unborn child. You were his entire world and there wasn't a single thing on this planet he wouldn't do for you. 

“Are you excited man?” Payback asked as he counted his chips. “You're gonna be a dad, how wild is that?” 

“I'm nervous, that's for sure.” Bob sighed as he ran his hand through his hair. “But yeah–I’m excited, I'm really excited and I'm ready to be there for whatever those two ever need ever.” 

“She's one beautiful woman man i'll give you that.” Payback added. “You’re good for one another, you bring out the best in each other.” Bob knew all this already, The two of you had been together for five beautiful years. And in those five years there had been many men that had tried to take you away from him. But you always chose Bob and that gave him comfort and reassurance in his place by your side. It was your world after all and he was just happy to live in it. And as Bob caught the sight of the same man approaching you as you walked away from the blackjack table that had been lingering around you by the bar, he stood up to head after you. 

“She thought I was staring at her boobs the first night we met.” Bob added as he chuckled at the memory. It was his favourite, it was hard to beat the first time he ever laid eyes on his soon to be wife. 

“Were you?” Payback asked curiously as the dealer got ready to start the next game.” Staring at her tits?” Bob thought about it for a moment before he nodded. 

“Yeah, a little.” 

***~***~***~***~***~***~

These days it was getting harder and harder to waddle around by yourself, but you enjoyed the independence of it all. You hadn’t even made it to the bathrooms before a man was approaching you on your way. You tried to avoid his eye line but even when you averted his gaze he was still honed in on you. 

“I couldn't help but to notice the sash.” He paused at your side and turned on his heels, walking with you towards the bathroom. “Getting married?” 

“Well if you noticed the sash and could read basic english you'd know the answer to that question already, wouldn't you.” You grumbled as you waddled down the hall with a hand over your bump. 

“Very true, very true.” He replied, keeping in step with your stride. “I was wondering if I could buy you a drink? Non-alcoholic unless you’re into that kinda thing.” That's when you had to stop yourself from putting one foot in front of the other just to process what exactly was going on. 

“I'm sorry, but are you trying to hit on a pregnant woman who's clearly on her bachelorette party?” You laid it out as clear as day for the man who smirked at you, he was basically undressing you with his eyes. 

“What can I say, I have a thing for pregnant women.” 

“Well I can assure you, this pregnant woman is not interested.” You hissed as you began waddling to the nearby bathroom again. “I appreciate the flattery, really, but I'm happily engaged, committed and very satisfied as you can probably see the consequences of.”  

As you tried to walk away from the man who had been following you around the casino all night reached out to grab your arm. In shock you paused and turned to frown at him. 

“Listen you little bitch I was just being fucking nice.” He hissed through gritted teeth as he leaned into your personal space. “You dont get to talk to me like that, blow me off like I’m some fucking dork.” 

“She actually has a thing for dorks man so I can assure you she would be blowing you off if she thought you were one.” Thank god Bob had followed you because right now independence was the last thing you were in search of. “Let go of my wife.” It made your heart skip a beat at the mention of you being Bob's wife. It must have just slipped in the heat of the moment but the man did as he was told. 

“You're marrying him?” The man laughed obnoxiously in your face, it was clear he was intoxicated, you could smell it on his breath and see it swirling in his eyes. 

“She is.” Robert Floyd was a pacifist, he didn’t enjoy confrontation or anything that resembled an argument. He preferred to use logical responses and persuasive reasoning to identify situations that might not work well in his favour otherwise. “So how about you back off and I'll grab you a cup of coffee, you look like you need one man.” 

“Your wife here's really pretty.” He snickered to himself as he pushed your hair behind your ear. “I could cum in my pants just thinking about all the nasty things I'd wanna do with her.” As the man looked over at Bob, you took the opportunity to slap him straight across the face. The impact echoed in the hall and even Bob felt the sting. It was a solid slap, hard enough for him to let go of your arm so that you could walk away towards where Bob stood. “You fucking bitch!” 

“I'm okay.” You reassured him. “Let's just get out of here.” 

“I've got you.” Bob cooed as he checked you over quickly with panic filled eyes. “I'm here, I've got you.” They checked over every visible part of you before he pulled you into him for a hug so loving and protective, his chin grazed the top of your head as he eyed off the man who had been harassing you. “Come near my wife again and we’re gonna have problems man, I'm not kidding, stay away from her.” 

“I’m gonna fucking kill you!” It must have been the bruised ego, but there was a definite switch that had been flipped inside the mind of this man you didn't even know the name of. “You mother fucker!” Bob knew this was escalating far too quickly, he needed to get you out of the way. So he turned his back on the man who was running right at him with balled fists and anger written in the wrinkles on his face. 

Robert Floyd turned his back on the danger running right at him. He couldn't offer tutoring sessions or use critical thinking skills to alter the course of the next few moments, because all he could think about was making sure he protected you. His best friend, the mother of his child. 

“Bob!” You gasped as he shoved you just enough to get you out of the way. You didn't see when Bob turned sharply to get one good and solid right hook in against the man's cheek, but he did. He got one punch–his only punch ever thrown. But to defend his wife, in self defence, Bob would do just about anything. Bradley Bradshaw had been coming out of the bathroom himself when he saw the hit play out. It was like time slowed down entirely as Bob pushed you away as gently as he could to keep you from being attacked.

“I told you to stay away from her!” Bob shouted as the man stumbled back slightly off balance. “Next time I'm not gonna ask you again pal–” His knuckles were throbbing, but Bob expected that. He’d never throw a punch in self defence before. “Go get a drink of water before I call security.” In Bob's own way, it was his way of still seeing the very good in everybody, you admired him for that. But something didn't seem right as Bob turned around to head back towards you, shaking his hand and mouthing a soft ‘Ow” your way. 

Bob had defended his family and he didn't feel sorry about it for a second, if anything he had a hard on and just wanted to get back to the hotel so he could ravage you. But Bob's single hit had done nothing but anger the man further. It didn't do much to stop the man from slamming his fist as hard as he could into the back of Bob's head. 

“Fucking cunt!” The man shouted as Bob stumbled forward and smacked his head on the corner of the wall. You wouldn't hear anything over your own screams. You couldn't see anything past the tears in your eyes and you couldn't see the man running down the hall with security right on his tail. 

But you saw the blood, the thick crimson blood that had begun to leak out of Bob's head from the impact of the hit he’d sustained. Bile rose in your throat as you sank to your knees before him as he laid on his stomach, bleeding profusely from his head. 

“Oh no–” You didn't know what to do. “Bob honey.” 

“I love you.” It was struggled, but you heard him. “I love you, my wife, my child.” 

“Bob?’ You coraked out. “Baby open your eyes.” You begged Bob as he laid skill in a pool of his own blood. “Oh god Bob no!” Panic had begun to take over your body as you tried to wake up the father of your baby boy. “Bob, open your eyes! Please baby, you're okay.” Again you tried to shake him as hands came to touch your shoulder. 

“Holy crap, Y/n–” Rooster gasped as he tried to find a pulse. “SOMEONE CALL AN AMBULANCE!” He shouted at the people now surrounding the scene in the hall. You couldn't breathe, but you could feel Bob's blood on your hands as you wiped them against your dress. 

“Baby wake up, come on you're okay, I know you are–” People don't just die like this do they? One minute they're there and the next second they’re gone. This doesn't happen right? It couldn't happen to you? Could it? “Bob, I love you, you love me, if you love me you'll wake up, you have to! You can't leave me here, not like this baby this isn't how you leave.” 

“Holy fuck what the hell happened!” Jake asked as he raced over. He was the one who pulled you back as Bradley did as he could to see if he could find a pulse. He couldn't. “Y/n, Y/n, listen to me, are you hurt? Is that your blood?” Jake frantically searched over you to see if you were bleeding, but as it turned out, it was just Bob's blood. “Bradshaw what the hell happened!?”

“He was sucker punched.” Was all Rooster said. “I dont even know if he got a shot in first but that son of a bitch fucking hit him!” 

“He was just here.” You mumbled as you shook in Jake's arms, clearly in shock. “He was just here, he can't be gone, he's just hurt.” Jake held you in his arms as you cried out for Bob, the love of your life, the father of your child and your best friend. “He cant be gone, he was just being Bob.” Jake locked eyes with Bradley as he looked over his shoulder. He shook his head, Bob wasn't breathing. 

“You're gonna be okay–” You weren't stupid. You knew that Jake had said you and not Bob, because he couldn't say Bob. He couldn't give you that hope. “We’ve got you, we promised.” Robert Floyd was a pacifist, he didn’t enjoy confrontation or anything that resembled an argument. He preferred to use logical responses and persuasive reasoning to identify situations that might not work well in his favour otherwise. 

But in this case, he did just enough to keep his family safe. The family he’d never get to see grow old.  ***~***~***~***~***~***~***~***~***~

Whumptober Tags 🏷️ @xoxabs88xox @oldermenaremyreligion @slut-f0r-u u @emma-is-cool @armydrcamers @topguncortez @topgun-imagines @kmc1989 @els-marvelvsp @blindedbythelightt

[teaveetamer]

"you’re soooo disgusted by incest that you’re willing to harass people who talk about it, but not disgusted enough to stop funding the company that continues producing content you’re supposedly so disgusted by? Miss me with that shit" you forgot that here is the 3dr category, the people who do boycott but bully others for not doing it. Like the people who bullied streamers who bought Hogwarts Legacy (i don't play the game nor care for it but damn)

That asides, Fe incest is limited to subtext between siblings that never go far, incest protrayed as wrong in several games and if it's the Avatar, you have the game's excuse to explain why it technically isnt' because Fe games are targeted at teens so they can't go too far with it, just like they have to be careful with the fanservice within the game.

Also, forgot to say this, but they'd also have to boycott greek mythology or mythology in general. And historical text such as Cleopatra marrying her brother (though t'was political) or the famous rumors about the Borgia family though it turn out to be false but never prevented people to use it in fictions (cough, cough Victor Hugo, Alexandre Dumas)

Oh boy someone's giving me the opportunity to talk about the stupid wizard game it's my lucky day!

I'm not going to argue that harassment didn't happen to streamers who played the game, but I was pretty deep in the sauce following the fallout for this and 99.9999999999999999999999% of the commentary I saw was just people saying basic shit like "trans rights", telling the streamer that they were disappointed in their decision to purchase and play the game on stream and they would not be watching/following any longer, and pointing out that your $60 to trans lifeline wasn't gonna do jack shit compared to the disgusting amount of influence JK has.

(Just so everyone is clear... I, you know, I agree with these statements. Especially that last point, that "but I donated $60 to trans lifeline!" is a placebo to make yourself feel like you've done something to counterbalance. A dollar in JKR's pocket is worth a hundred in trans lifeline's, because JKR has a fuckton of money she can throw at anything she wants to support or oppose, is friends with people in government who will listen to her, and despite the backlash she's still an incredibly well known, influential person. Streamers and Youtubers are even worse tbh, because not only did they put money in JKR's pockets, they're now actively advertising and profiting off of the game. Why don't you put all of the profits you make from your streams toward trans lifeline too, if you're such an ally?)

And this is not something where I was just going into pro-trans-people-should-be-allowed-to-live circles. I was looking at compilations from supporters of the streamers trying to condemn people for the hate, and this was the kind of thing people were pulling up. Now I'm not an expert, but I'm pretty sure when you're trying to demonstrate that brutal harassment is happening, you go for the most fucked up shit you can find. Sooooo if that's the best they were coming up with, either their perception of what constitutes harassment is grievously warped, or they genuinely couldn't find anything harder than someone on twit with a trans flag in their display name saying "trans rights". Which is... telling.

I did, however, see a lot of really disgusting harassment from transphobes leaving hateful shit on youtube videos and tweets from trans creators! You can find it pretty easily, actually, it's literally all over any trans creator's videos speaking up about the game. Even chill ones that were like "I'm not saying you're a bad person for buying this game, but you're not my ally" which, you know. Yeah.

So like, you know, ~cis opinions~ and all, but kiiiiiiiinda feels like maybe one side was blatantly trying to martyr streamers based on some critique they received and maybe a small group of bad actors harassing them to motivate and justify harassment of trans people. Which, you know, if you've ever been a member of a marginalized community, should be an extremely familiar tactic to you by now.

And the thing that really fucks me off is that it's not hard to enjoy the stupid wizard game without putting money into the pockets of someone who literally wants their fellow humans dead. This is a very rare instance in life where you actually can have your cake and eat it too. Just buy it used, I've been saying that for months. The profit from used games go entirely to the store you purchased them from. And hey, another reason to not let physical die out! It requires that someone, somewhere buy it new first, but let's be real we all know that people were gonna buy the stupid wizard game and there was nothing we were gonna be able to do to stop them.

That's what I was going to do if the game piqued my interest (which tbh, the more I saw of it the less interested in actually playing it at some point I got. I mean I like the stupid wizard world as much as the next Zilennial but they aren't selling me shit unless it's a cozy wizard school life sim. There aren't even romance options! That's like half the reason to play a not!Bioware game! And I don't want to play a stupid 15 year old. And I've heard all of the outfits are atrocious and I'm sorry, I'm a fashion over function player.)

Also, while I'm ranting, here's an unpopular opinion for you: the blatant dick sucking by review outlets of one of the most mid looking games of 2023 was excruciatingly painful to watch. Did you see some of those reviews? Fucking ridiculous. "There's only six spells, the texture pop in is godawful, the game runs like shit, the world is boring. 9/10". Like yeah I get that review outlets are naturally going to be biased toward positive reviews so they can continue getting early access and perks, but GOD they could at least pretend. And it'll still probably get GotY because it's the wizard IP you remember from when you were a kid! Member? I member!

[beatriceeagle]

I heartily endorse the basic message of this post, but to be clear: putting "proshippers are gross dni" in a fic tag is almost certainly not harassment by the AO3 Terms of Service (nor would I consider it harassment by a common-sense definition) and you are very unlikely to get a positive result from reporting a fic with that tag.

Here's what the AO3 ToS has to say about harassment:

Harassment is any behavior that produces a generally hostile environment for its target. This includes activities such as bullying and hazing by groups of people as well as personal attacks by individuals. Not everyone agrees about what is offensive and unacceptable. Individual users are encouraged to try to resolve problems on their own before contacting the Policy & Abuse team.

...

When judging whether a specific incident constitutes harassment, the team will consider factors such as whether the behavior was repeated, whether it was repeated after the offender was asked to stop, whether the behavior was targeted at a specific person, whether that target could have easily avoided encountering the behavior, whether the behavior would be considered unacceptable according to normal community standards, etc. Additionally, making complaints that are both (a) repeated and (b) baseless, particularly those targeting a specific user, can be considered harassing behavior and may be deemed a violation of the ToS. While these complaints will be reviewed on a case by case basis, in general, threatening Content will be considered harassment, while Content that is merely annoying will be allowed. Please note that most statements like "X is a terrible actor and should die!" are not death threats. Writing a story where X dies as part of the plot is also not usually a death threat. Content that is harder to avoid (such as comments on the target's fanworks) will be judged more strictly than Content that is easily avoidable (such as stories).

A fic tagged "proshippers are gross dni" is easily avoided by proshippers; it does not target a specific person or limited group of people; it is not threatening or violent; it is not bigoted. It is, obviously, hostile (and generally unpleasant) but it's not obviously any more hostile than, say, a tag that says "republicans are gross." By most standards, and likely by the standard laid out above, it would be "merely annoying," not harassment.

It's also not improper use of the tagging system. AO3 will change users' tags when they are improperly warned, improperly rated, contain incorrect capitalization or diacritics, or violate the TOS. They will not remove or change tags simply for being off-topic. Absent harassment, there is no obvious reason that "proshippers are gross dni" is improper tagging when "i wrote this instead of sleeping" isn't.

I've taken the trouble of writing this out, not because I like seeing pro/anti discourse in fic tags (I very much agree that a fic writer who insults people in their tags is an automatic skip for me) but because 1) AO3's Policy and Abuse team is notoriously overworked, and I don't like the idea of their inbox getting clogged with nonsense reports, 2) harassment is serious and I don't like seeing the term get watered down, and 3) I actually believe in the idea of using the tools provided to curate one's experience. If a writer tags a fic "proshippers are gross dni," and I find that fic or writer's presence on AO3 to be a genuine irritant, I can block and mute them. Unless they start venturing into more obviously harassing behavior (say, gifting me a fic titled "proshippers are gross," or going out of their way to bookmark one of my fics with that comment) I now no longer have to deal with them.

Ao3 authors, please learn to not insult people and be “morally superior” in the tags

Instead of tagging “noncon is gross” or “not noncon because that’s problematic”, for example, just put “enthusiastic consent” or “consensual sex” in the tags. It makes things a whole lot easier for people to filter and know what’s going on.

I really don’t care that you think noncon fics are bad or whatever, I (and many others) will be more likely to read your fic about two boys who are deeply in love if you aren’t an ass about your morals in fiction :/

[self-winding]

CW: JK Rowling

So I finally read J.K. Rowling’s notorious essay.

As a caveat:  I don’t think she’s exaggerating when she talks about the level of harassment and hate she’s received for her stances, so from that angle at least, I do sympathize with her.  The entire political landscape around trans issues is a nightmare.  Hell, trans people regularly cannibalize each other over differences of opinion, with everyone on all sides screaming, “You are literally KILLING US.”  And the excessive cruelty toward Rowling has just made it easier for her supporters to hold her up as some kind of martyr, giving extra social and political capital to someone who (from what I’ve seen) has nothing new or profound to say about the issues.

That said I totally get why a lot of people find this essay enraging.  Something like 30% of it is devoted to actual arguments for her stance and the other 70% is Arguments from Bravery, where she talks a lot about her own trauma and hardship (while insisting that she doesn’t want others to feel sorry for her) and holds up that trauma as though it’s a form of evidence.  She’s very clearly playing the game where she thinks the most oppressed person or group should automatically be given the moral right of way, and she’s trying to position herself as aligned with the most oppressed.  I find this strategy maddening regardless of what side it’s coming from.  Suffering is not a form of expertise.

Regarding her actual stances:  as I suspected she seems closer to the transmedicalist than the TERF end of the spectrum, but her views also don’t seem very consistent or coherent.  She asserts, “Woman is not an idea in a man’s head,” which would seem to lean toward a more hardcore TERF stance that there is no such thing as gender identity (or if there is, it’s formed purely by inhabiting a certain type of body) but she also clearly grants exceptions to this principle, because she gushes condescendingly about all the “adorable” and “wonderful” trans people she knows, and expresses a sense of solidarity with trans women who are sufficiently victimized by men.  Presumably all these trans people meet her nebulous criteria for what constitutes a “real” trans person; she thinks there are “real” trans people but that most people these days who claim to be trans are not.

Her arguments against a too-inclusive definition of transness are, A) the usual misandrist “cis men will pretend to be trans woman so they can flood women’s spaces and rape and abuse women en masse because men are horrible and will take any opportunity to rape and abuse women.”  A lot of people have talked at length about the regressive hysteria behind this stance so I won’t go too in depth, but short version:  while you can find isolated anecdotes of anything, there is no broad statistical evidence that making changing rooms or bathrooms unisex will increase rape or violence.  In my state, “any gender” bathrooms are increasingly common and as far as I know there have not been catastrophic social consequences of this.  I mean, there are still individual stalls that lock so it’s not like anyone can see you taking a piss (or changing, if it’s a changing room), it’s just a matter of who you’re standing next to at the sink when you wash your hands.

And B)  "It’s clear to me that women are becoming men in order to escape sexism and the cage of femininity because come on who wouldn’t want to be a man, am I right??” (Maybe the conclusion to this whole saga will be JK coming out, taking T and changing her name to Harry.)

As an essay it’s not very persuasive, though I suspect the intention was less to persuade and more to establish a sense of solidarity with people who already agree with her.

My own stance on trans issues has always come from an individualist, libertarian perspective: I believe in bodily autonomy so I believe adults have a right to modify their own bodies as they see fit.  While pragmatism dictates (as with all medical things) there will be some basic gatekeeping, and the issue gets cloudier with how much agency minors should have to change their own bodies, it should ultimately be up to the individual, because it’s their life and their body.  To me, “trans” means “someone who wants to transition” (either physically or socially).  I am not a huge fan of sex-segregated or gender-segregated spaces to begin with, and I am for open and flexible norms around pronouns.

So there’s my two cents about that.

[shihalyfie]

I really hope people can understand that I am not claiming, nor have I ever claimed, to be objective. I tend to have a very declarative tone when I make analysis, so I understand people might get that impression, but I do it purely because I think it's important to not show too much hesitation when you want to make a case firmly. I started writing for this blog being well aware that people would disagree, and in fact I prefer it when people are allowed to have their own ways of seeing media. Honestly, half my problems are when this kind of thing isn't the case and everyone's expected to see things exactly the same way. Objectivity doesn't exist in media analysis, and we're all better off not pretending it does.

To be honest, it took a lot of convincing for me to start writing for this blog a little over a year ago, and it was mainly because I'd firsthand experienced how much pushback you get or how much people yell at you when you don't agree with common fandom rhetoric (especially when the rhetoric often consists of provably false things to the point you feel a bit gaslighted being expected to believe all of it). It's exhausting, and in fact part of the reason I don't always cite names of the friends I consult with is that they also requested privacy due to wanting to stay out of fandom eye and not get harassed for these things. I wanted to share my thoughts and the thoughts of others I talked to, and I wanted to encourage people to try seeing things a bit more deeply instead of just taking everything at face value. That requires having a kind of spirit and mentality that's more aggressive about unpacking things than usual, and I'm aware that as much as I'm trying to stay close to the text so that I can write things that might be helpful for others, in the end I may be overreaching or come off sounding like a tinfoil hat theorist. I'm doing this specifically because I want to challenge the idea that there's such a thing as "looking too deeply into it", and because of that I'm going to pursue little details more proactively than the average person, even if it's a little strange -- but I'm a human being subject to biases and other things and the only thing I can do is "do my best". I don't know what the right or wrong answer is either, if there even is any.

I'm fine if people quietly think of me as a weird crackpot theorist or someone with bad takes because I can't control others' opinions of me, but it's also discouraging if doing all of this is just going to result in me being harassed or yelled at or treated like a joke, or accused of trying to shove things down other people's throats (because I'm not; at most I want to encourage people to see things a different way and voice why I'm frustrated at certain takes, but I'm not going to down you if you still don't agree). I want to be able to make my case without worrying about getting yelled at, but it doesn't go further than that.

I'm trying my best as a human being who still doesn't know what's supposed to constitute "overdoing it" or "too much", so the only thing I can do is throw things out and hope they're helpful or interesting. I'm sorry if they're not.

[robininthelabyrinth]

Initiative pt 2 - ao3 or tumblr pt 1

It was just typical of his brother, Nie Huaisang thought. He finally, finally, finally found a girl that might suit him, agreed to marry her, and then he spent all his time worrying about…saber.

Typical.

Nie Huaisang volunteered himself to act as the family representative in negotiations with the Jiang sect, seeing as his brother would undoubtedly get them fleeced if he were trying to do it himself – “Try not to be too mercenary, Huaisang. We are the ones in the stronger position, through no fault of theirs.” –  and with one thing or another he arrived at the Lotus Pier less than a week after Jiang Yanli did.

Jiang Cheng and Wei Wuxian seemed rather surprised to see him.

“I haven’t had a moment to tell them,” Jiang Yanli said, pressing her head to her forehead and looking a little tired. “They’d just completed the memorial hall, when I arrived.”

“And it’s been nothing but keeping them from fighting ever since?” Nie Huaisang said, not without some sympathy.

Only some, though. If Jiang Yanli couldn’t handle Jiang Cheng and Wei Wuxian, even the grieved and tragic versions of them, what was she going to do the first time his brother went into a rage?

Maybe he was being too cold-blooded. After all, they’d been her parents, too.

“Your arrival is a good thing,” she said, narrowing her eyes a little in satisfaction. “Now they have no excuse to run away from me.”

Nie Huaisang couldn’t help but smile a little at that.

She summoned a few sect disciples, divided them neatly into two groups – one larger than the other – and instructed them to go bring her two recalcitrant brothers to the main hall. “You may use force,” she informed the larger group. “I would advise you that A-Xian is especially weak to tickling around his ribs, and don’t let him scare you off with that Yiling Patriarch stuff. And as for the group going to get A-Cheng – may I suggest looking especially pathetic when you convey the message that his sister, who he left alone for almost the entire war, would really like to see him if he has a moment to spare for her?”

Nie Huaisang’s smile broadened. “Tears,” he added solemnly. “Tears are very good. He hates tears.”

“Just so. Thank you all.”

“My brother is already planning out your saber,” he told her once the disciples had left, and she brightened visibly. “If there’s anything you want to contribute in terms of design, now’s the time – I brought mine in case you want to have a look later on.”

Aituan was in his luggage. Somewhere. His brother had refused to let him leave the Unclean Realm before he’d produced proof of saber, and he hadn’t unpacked since then, so surely it was somewhere.

“I’m sure whatever your brother comes up with will be fine,” she said. “I don’t know anything about weapons.”

A brief hesitation.

“Although, perhaps not – so large…?”

Nie Huaisang decided to be daring. He opened his fan in front of his face and looked at her over it, allowing his eyes to curve up in a smile. “Don’t worry about that – though if all goes well, you’re going to have to accustom yourself to dealing with a large saber at some point in the process.”

She burst out laughing, which was good.

“Nie Huaisang!” Oh, look, Jiang Cheng was here. “What are you saying to my sister? You’d better not be harassing her!”

“What would you do if I was?” Nie Huaisang wondered. “I mean, I’m not, I don’t think, but –”

“Just don’t.”

“A-Cheng,” Jiang Yanli said. “Be polite. Where’s A-Xian? I have something to tell you both.”

Wei Wuxian came in a few moments later, grumbling and rubbing his ribs but brightening when he saw them all gathered up there, and he slid into place by Jiang Cheng’s side easy as anything even if they did sort of stare awkwardly with quasi-glares, quasi-grimaces at each other first.

And then Jiang Yanli told them why Nie Huaisang was there, and all awkwardness fell away at once so that they could unite in glaring at Nie Huaisang.

“Why are you looking at me for?” he asked. “I’m not the one marrying her, that’s my brother.”

“If you had anything to do with this –” Wei Wuxian started, doing his whole looming-with-the-subtonal-wailing-of-dark-forces Yiling Patriarch thing, but ticklish around the ribs and a summer of nonsense didn’t really do much to encourage fear in Nie Huaisang, who’d never had as much common sense as a regular person ought.

“Oh, no, I objected to it,” Nie Huaisang said breezily. “Your sister doesn’t deserve my brother.”

And that, of course, got them both up in arms even more.

“What’s that supposed to mean? What’s wrong with my sister?” Jiang Cheng shouted, and Wei Wuxian’s aura-of-darkness got even more out of hand as he crossed his arms and glared death. “She’d be a great bride for anyone! Give me one reason –”

“I’m glad to have your support, didi,” Jiang Yanli said, calmly ladling out the soup she’d promised Nie Huaisang as if they were sitting in the midst of a nice breeze instead of a hurricane, and okay, fine, maybe his brother had a point about the importance of things like backbone and patience. “Don’t worry so much. If Nie-er-gongzi is here as his brother’s representative, that must mean he’s accepted the match.”

Or that he was here to sabotage it, but he appreciated her good faith interpretation.

“Please, just Huaisang is fine,” he said, smiling at her. “You’ll be my sister-in-law soon enough, won’t you?”

“We haven’t agreed yet!” Wei Wuxian exclaimed.

“Oh, like your opinion matters,” Nie Huaisang said, rolling his eyes. “You know how many people have put good money down on you leaving the Jiang sect in the next three-to-six months?”

That got all of them looking like they’d just been unexpectedly stabbed in the chest, Jiang Yanli included.

“What?” he asked, batting his eyelashes innocently at them. “Did I say something wrong? Everyone knows you aren’t doing anything for the Jiang sect anymore, Wei-xiong. All the rumors says so, and the only reason for that is if you were planning on ditching now that you don’t need them anymore.”

“That’s enough,” Jiang Yanli said, and there was a bit of steel in her voice. “A-Xian isn’t leaving, and even if he was, his opinion on my marriage would still matter to me.”

“That’s one of the reasons I objected,” Nie Huaisang said to her, deciding that she was clearly the only one mature enough to have this extremely necessary discussion with. “Meaning no offense, but in every possible respect, you’re a bad match. If you marry my brother, will you be expecting him to run around defending everything the Yiling Patriarch does whenever he’s in the mood to thumb his nose at the cultivation world? Or paying for the Lotus Pier’s reconstruction costs, even though Jiang-xiong hasn’t made a single overture to our Nie sect in terms of reestablishing trade routes or even just swapping craftsmen for mutual benefit?”

Both Jiang Cheng and Wei Wuxian were positively black in the face.

“Of course, even if you weren’t going to anchor him down with even more political obligations, there’s your personal value,” Nie Huaisang continued, tapping his finger against his cheek. “Word has it that you’re weak and sickly. Who’s to say that you won’t die along with the first child you bear –”

“How dare you talk about my shijie like that!” Wei Wuxian shouted, slamming his hand down on the table, while Jiang Cheng’s Zidian crackled lightning like an overactive firework. “How dare you –”

“And do you still support the marriage, even with all of these disadvantages?” Jiang Yanli asked, holding up her hands to hold her brothers back. Her eyes were a bit wet, but she was otherwise unperturbed, at least on the surface.

“I do, actually,” Nie Huaisang said, pleased. Even if she went to go cry later, which he didn’t think she would, she’d done well enough to pass his personal test of what constituted backbone. “My brother doesn’t care about politics, we have plenty of money, and there’s doctors for the rest of it. If you’re really willing to put in the effort, I’d be happy to call you my sister-in-law.”

Jiang Cheng was hissing like a pot of water on the boil. Wei Wuxian was grinding his teeth.

“I appreciate that,” Jiang Yanli said, disregarding them entirely. “I can promise you that I’ll do my best.”

“Good, good,” Nie Huaisang said, and grinned at her. “There’s only enough room for one useless flower vase in the Nie household, and the position is taken. By me, if that’s not clear. I brought my brother’s eight characters – do you have yours at hand? We can calculate the auspicious date immediately.”

“I still haven’t agreed!” Jiang Cheng exclaimed, and Jiang Yanli reached out to touch his arm lightly. “I haven’t! Jiejie, you don’t have to marry anyone you don’t want to, no matter what good things you think it’d bring to the sect, okay? You should marry for love!”

“Jiang Cheng’s right, shijie,” Wei Wuxian said at once. “You should get anyone you like. Even if you still want that stupid Jin sect peacock, we’d find a way to get him for you.”

Nie Huaisang looked at Jiang Yanli carefully at that one. It was even odds if his brother minded her having some vestigial affections, especially in the beginning, but he himself wouldn’t be having any of that – least of all with a Jin, no matter how much better Jin Zixuan seemed to be than his father.

His brother deserved someone who would put him first, this time.

“No, thank you,” she said without the slightest hesitation, and Nie Huaisang nodded in approval. “Young Master Jin has made his opinion about me clear enough, and not just once. I’m not going to run after him like I think that’s all I’m good for. And anyway, Chifeng-zun is a good man, who you both greatly admire – why can’t I marry him?”

“You can marry anyone you want,” Jiang Cheng said at once.

“And I want to marry him,” she said, and smiled. “At first, yes, it was primarily because he seemed to offer the most advantages for our sect, but…I don’t know. He’s very nice.”

Nie Huaisang mouthed the word ‘nice’ to himself, rolling it around in his mouth like a fine wine. It might be the first time anyone had ever described his brother that way.

“I think I would be happy being married to him,” she concluded. “Even very happy. Will you approve?”

They folded like a stack of cards.

“Oh, I like you,” Nie Huaisang told her, finally but now wholly delighted. “It’ll be good for my brother.”

And it’ll be interesting to see how the Jin sect takes it, he thought with a smirk half-hidden behind his fan. Since you bring the power and influence of whole Jiang sect with you, and the Yiling Patriarch too.

He wouldn’t mention that, of course.

Only an idiot would negotiate against themselves.

[gothhabiba]

anyway not that you’re the kind of person whom a clarification would actually reach, but the “these things” in my phrase “these things shade into each other so minutely that there’s no sensible place to draw that line” actually wasn’t referring back to the asker’s list of assorted kinks or whatever (that interpretation doesn’t make any sense—why would we need to “draw a line” between various different kinks if we just go ahead and consider them all to be abhorrent, which is the proposition that, for the sake of argument, I start from?)

—rather, what I meant is that like, if someone decides they think people who participate in CNC should be socially isolated or taken out and shot in the street, the question becomes: how do we decide who “participates” in CNC? what counts as “participation”—from regularly being the top in this act, to regularly being the bottom, to having tried it once, to creating pornography of it, to watching or reading pornography of it, to having made one post that’s arguably a reference to it, to having friends or mutuals who engage in it, to having liked a post that’s arguably a reference to it, &c. &c.? the point at which something counts as “participation” is fuzzy enough that it can be manipulated to serve the ends of whoever is calling someone out for something.

what about what counts as “CNC”? obviously a whole scene in which some people agree that any of them will pretend to forcibly rape any other(s) of them counts. what about being into bondage... I mean, that participates in a physical and visual imaginary that fetishises non-consent, surely? so we’d better count that too. what about other forms of role play à la “I’d do anything to pass this class” or “there’s one way I’ll let you out of this ticket...”? these create scenarios out of things that would be and are situations of rape in real life. what about an agreement that one person will be "punished" for failing to comply with some demand or other? you could keep going like this through shades of things that are increasingly less reasonable and get to a place where you’re morally condemning everyone who’s bought, like, sex dice (you have no choice in which sex acts you perform 😳). actually the fetishisation of non-consent in a million different tiny ways is extremely common in "vanilla" sex. you could imagine a similar gradient being drawn out for "ageplay" (of which, ditto).

I also reference (elsewhere) a similar shading off of things in terms of what counts as “proof,” where you could imagine a gradient as well (“openly admits to doing this regularly and it’s on video” or something, to "there are screenshots of posts that seem to reference it," all the way down to “someone told me that someone told them that someone heard their ex say that they once said they were into this”).

in case you’re the least generous reader alive, this does not mean that all of the listed things are “the same.” that’s not what “gradient” means. the entire point is that people would generally find some more solid, more condemnable, more “extreme,” than others. the point is that if you can’t create widespread agreement beforehand on what even constitutes a certain act and what doesn’t—if you can’t produce airtight reasoning or a clear and exhaustive determination on the matter upon demand and continually reference it in when deciding whose callouts to spread and who to send death threats or whatever—then, obviously, who deserves to have this kind of engineered social death done to them is kind of wishy-washy.

my next question is: what happens when people can face any number of consequences from being criticised to being brigaded, sexually harassed, sent threats, having support withdrawn, getting doxxed, &c. &c. on bases that are kind of wishy-washy? here's the answer: these strategies are used selectively in order to further marginalise and isolate those who are already considered disposable (and who already lack the presumption of innocence). what "counts" as "bad enough" to "deserve" any fate, up to and including death, can be shifted at will from person to person in order to selectively target trans women.

well, but surely I'm just making up imaginary scenarios? in fact, no! even the line of what counts as "sexual" and what doesn't is demonstrably shiftable when it comes to trans women, online and off (what kicked off this latest round of discussion of the subject was a trans woman being harassed at length for saying the word "mousegirl"). that situation also furnishes an example of how people will decide that a given trans woman must be being horny (in whatever unacceptable way—and, if you're a trans woman, it's arguable whether there is an acceptable way), and then scour through her blog trying to find "evidence" of said horniness (and what counts as "evidence" is a bar that's lowered if you've already made up your mind that you want to find it).

so that's what I actually meant by that sentence (which is just one point in my larger argument, which is why I didn't drag it out like this in that post).

the fact that "these kinks are morally abhorrent" is the place that I (again, for the sake of argument) start from, in order to argue that even then, we can show that this kind of behaviour is transmisogynistic and unacceptable—and, in response to that, you're demanding that I state that one of these kinks is morally abhorrent...? that's not what the argument is arguing, you've missed the memo, you've missed the last three trains to the point, and the fact that you've chosen "we shouldn't selectively harass trans women into suicide" (<- that's it, that's literally the entire point I'm making) as the ground to stage your demand makes me seriously doubt your intentions here, to say the least.

furthermore, in this conversation, each kink named should be read more as an example of the kind of thing that will be searched for and reacted to in trans women's sex lives than the object in itself (so we're not talking about pedophilia qua pedophilia, but rather "pedophilia"—with the scare quotes—qua accusation that can be applied on any number of grounds, which has been amply demonstrated with "drag queen story hours are grooming" types of discourses). please do feel free to ignore this last paragraph if this point is too fine for you.

in the op you say “ these things shade into each other so minutely” in your response to me you call them “weird kinks” and in the tags you lump it together with “consensual sex acts” the point is that raceplay is not first and foremost any of those things nor is it on the same plane as those other ““weird kinks”” because it is straight up fucking racism. you are a take machine by the way, 80% of your posts are high effort hot takes but i guess “racism is bad” isn’t contrarian enough for you

“you are a take machine by the way”

AMAZING. INCROYABLE 😂😂😂

[fatalism-and-villainy]

I’m going to preface this post by saying that I am well aware of the circumstances that have given rise to the kind of rhetoric I am about to be critical of. I know that there is a vast contingent of fans who make incredibly aggressive, vitriolic, and bad faith attacks on MDZS and its author, and that a lot of the positive discussion of the novel has in many ways been constrained by this context. I am myself generally defensive of the novel, and I think the amount and nature of the backlash it has received is awful. This argument is also not directed at any particular person or post - it’s the product of a conglomeration of numerous posts and the general impression I’ve gotten from them. 

That said, there is a particular kind of defense of the novel that I think is misguided, and misguided in a manner that actually capitulates to the premises of a lot of the criticism, and does the novel a disservice. And that defense is, specifically, how the sex scenes or general romantic development are discussed.  

To be more specific – I definitely appreciate the commentary on the themes of consent in Lan Wangji’s arc, and how that ties into the development of the novel’s central relationship, and more broadly the way in which MDZS constitutes in some ways a self-aware engagement with its own genre. But I think a lot of these defenses are framed so as to downplay the fact that, regardless of its subversions or active engagement with the parameters of its genre, MDZS is, ultimately, still a romance novel.

And I say that not in a disparaging manner, but rather to emphasize that the structure of the work, and the reader response it is broadly geared towards, are difficult to separate from this. Assuming that sexual appeal, or romantic fantasy, are not intended components of MDZS, or that it would weaken the novel if they were, is I think, wrongheaded, and it does a disservice to MDZS (and the romance genre more broadly) to assume that the appealing or titillating elements of its romantic plot or sexual content need to be downplayed in order to argue for its quality as a work of art. 

(I don’t want to imply that this is the intention of anyone making these kinds of arguments, but the combined weight of these talking points, or rather the frequency with which I’ve seen them invoked, is starting to give off that subtext to me.)

To be more specific – I see objections to the nonconsensual Phoenix Mountain kiss being countered with arguments about the role of that scene within the narrative, and Lan Wangji’s struggle with his parents’ history and the themes of consent that tie into that. And I agree with this reading! I think that is certainly the way we are supposed to connect the dots. But I have seen the general implication of “Well of course that scene isn’t sexy! It’s a commentary on consent!” To which I make the reply, “why can’t it be both?” 

For me, that scene is operating on multiple levels. It is a moral breach (as Lan Wangji himself acknowledges when they talk about it at the end) on a more grounded and  realist level, as well as an important bit of characterization of Lan Wangji as complex and dealing with some considerable internal struggle. But, on a different storytelling level, the more romantic, wish-fulfillment level, it’s a fun little titillation fantasy! The idea of a powerful person being so overcome with passion for you that they have to have you and can’t be held back by their own moral values, is a pretty common fantasy! I think that it flattens the scene considerably to erase that aspect of it, because I think the way it balances both of those realities is actually a triumph of MXTX’s writing, and one of the things that makes the novel so rich.

I will also say that something else I appreciate about that scene, along with Wei Wuxian’s post-resurrection harassment of Lan Wangji, and the way the drunk sex scene is negotiated (or… not negotiated), is the fact that it doesn’t operate based on a rigid set of interpersonal principles. Or, to put it another way, I think the development of Wangxian’s relationship in the novel is very much a demonstration of the fact that people often do cross boundaries, make mistakes, and commit ethical infractions in their interpersonal relations with others, and that that’s not actually the end of the world and doesn’t make you irredeemably bad. It is entirely one’s right to cut off contact with someone who commits such infractions, but it’s not actually necessary to do that if your general relations with that person have been positive or you think they have demonstrated considerable evidence of improvement. I think a lot of people who attack the novel are operating on a very rigid moral framework when it comes to evaluating those situations, and I would rather not concede to that view in my evaluation of them – which I think downplaying the expectation of reader enjoyment of scenes like that does effectively do.

I’ve seen similar criticisms of other sex scenes responded to in similar ways – when people have some objection to how a sex scene is written, whether of a moral nature or simply a personal preference nature, I often see that countered with “well it’s not supposed to be hot, it’s there for characterization/theme purposes.” And I understand this impulse, considering the current backlash against sex scenes and the accompanying disavowal of the value of sex scenes in developing characterization. But, honestly, I don’t think it’s reasonable to chastise people for wanting the sex in a romance novel to be sexy. It is generally part of the structural contract in the genre that a romance will culminate in sex, and that the sex is there, at least in part, for fanservice. And there are plenty of people who enjoy the sex scenes in MDZS, or who do think they’re hot. The fact that they don’t appeal to everyone (which is inevitable) doesn’t mean they’re not meant to appeal, or that theme, characterization, and other components of the craft of writing can’t coexist with that intention.

There is a broader strain of literary criticism that I disapprove of that follows this sort of logic – that any sort of more visceral reader enjoyment (and not just sexual enjoyment – aesthetic enjoyment also qualifies) constitutes a lack of critical thinking on the part of the reader, a lack of awareness of the fact that the author actually meant you to be critical of this thing that looks appealing on the surface. But they are not mutually exclusive. And I think it’s a fairly conservative view of sex in particular to assume that sexual appeal or arousal precludes critical thinking. And with MDZS specifically, I feel as if some defenses of the novel have the unintentional effect of flattening the novel into didacticism. Which is a shame, because I think the way MXTX engages the themes surrounding consent, and associated expectations of the romance genre, is actually quite subtle and nuanced. It’s not a text that spells out all the answers about this issue, and, despite what the detractors say, it doesn’t have to.

Anyway. The sex scenes do some fascinating character and thematic work, and they’re sexy. And that’s not a bad thing.

[bogkeep]

hmmmmmmmmmm maybe i’ll write an Introspective Musing Post about my relationship to religion and their depiction in stories because i’ve pondering about this topic lately

so for those who are reading this and DON’T know what’s been going on...  there’s this webcomic i fell in love with some years ago, about six years actually, that depicts a post-apocalyptic fantasy/horror adventure set in the nordic countries. it had, and has still, some very uncomfortable flaws regarding racial representation, and the creator has historically not dealt very well with criticism towards it. it’s a whole Thing. my relationship with this comic has fluctuated a lot, since there are a lot of elements in it i DO love and i still feel very nostalgic about, and like idk i felt like i trust my skills in critical thinking enough to keep reading. aaand then the creator went a teensy bit off the deep end created a whole minicomic which is like... a lukewarm social media dystopia where christians are oppressed (and also everyone is a cute bunny, including our lord and saviour jesus christ). which is already tonedeaf enough considering there are religious people who DO get prosecuted for their faith, like, that’s an actual reality for a lot of people - but as far as i can tell, usually not christians. and then there’s an afterword that’s like, “anyway i got recently converted and realized i’m a disgusting human being full of sin who doesn’t deserve redemption but jesus loves me so i’ll be fine!! remember to repent for your sins xoxo” and a bunch of other stuff and IT’S KIND OF REALLY CONCERNING i have, uh, been habitually looking at the reactions to and discussions around this, maybe it’s not very self care of me but there’s a lot of overwhelming things rn and it’s fantastically distracting, yknow? like, overall this situation is fairly reminiscent of the whole jkr thing. creator of a series that is Fairly Beloved, does something hurtful, handles backlash in a weird way, a lot of people start taking distance from Beloved Series or find ways to enjoy it on their own terms, creator later reveals to have been fully radicalized and releases a whole manifesto, and any and all criticism gets framed as harassment and proving them right. of course, one of them is a super rich person with a LOT of media power and a topic that is a lot more destructive in our current zeitgeist, and the other is an independent webcomic creator, so it’s  not the same situation. just similar vibez ya feel as a result of this, i have been Thinking. and just this feels like some sort of defeat like god dammit she got me i AM thinking about the topic she wrote about!!! i should dismiss the whole thing!!! but thinking about topics is probably a good thing so hey lets go. me, i’m agnostic. i understand that this is a ‘lazy’ position to take, but it’s what works for me. i simply do not vibe with organized religion, personally. (i had the wikipedia page for ‘chaos magic’ open in a tab for several weeks, if that helps.) i was raised by atheists in a majorly atheist culture. christian atheist, i should specify. norway has been mostly and historically lutheran, and religion has usually been a private and personal thing. it turns out the teacher i had in 7th grade was mormon, but i ONLY found out because he showed up in a tv series discussing religious groups in norway later, and he was honestly one of the best teachers i have ever had - he reignited the whole class’ interest in science, math, and dungeons and dragons. it was a real “wait WHAT” moment for my teenage self. i think i was briefly converted to christianity by my friend when i was like 7, who grew up in a christian family (i visited them a couple times and always forgot they do prayers before dinner. oops!), but like, she ALSO made me believe she was the guardian of a secret magic orb that controls the entire world and if i told anybody the world would burn down in 3 seconds. i only suspected something was off when one day the Orb ran on batteries, and another day the Orb had to be plugged in to charge. in my defense i really wanted to be part of a cool fantasy plot. i had no idea how to be a christian beyond “uuuuh believe in god i guess” so it just faded away on its own. when i met this friend several years later, she was no longer christian. i think every childhood friend of mine who grew up in a christian family, was no longer christian when they grew up. most notably my closest internet friend whose family was catholic - she had several siblings, and each of them took a wildly different path, from hippie treehugger to laveyan satanist or something in that area. (i joined them for a sermon in a church when they visited my town. my phone went off during it because i had forgotten to silence it. oops!) ((i also really liked their mother’s interpretation of purgatory. she explained it as a bath, not fire. i like that.)) i have never had any personal negative experiences with christianity, despite being openly queer/gay/trans. the only time someone has directly told me i’m going to hell was some guy who saw me wearing a hoodie on norway’s constitution day. yeah i still remember that you bastard i’ve sworn to be spiteful about it till the day i die!! i’ve actually had much more insufferable interactions with the obnoxious kind of atheists - like yes yes i agree with you on a lot but that doesn’t diminish your ability to be an absolute hypocrite, it turns out? i remember going to see the movie ‘noah’ with a friend who had recently discovered reddit atheism and it was just really exhausting to discuss it with her. one of these Obnoxious Atheists is my Own Mother. which is a little strange, honestly, because she LOVES visiting churches for the Aesthetic and Architecture. we cannot go anywhere without having to stop by a pretty church to Admire and Explore. I’VE BEEN IN SO MANY CHURCHES FOR AN ATHEIST RAISED NON-CHRISTIAN. i’ve been to the vatican TWICE (i genuinely don’t even know how much of my extended family is christian. up north in the tiny village i come from, i believe my uncle is the churchkeeper, and it’s the only building in the area that did not get burnt down by the the nazis during ww2 - mostly because soldiers needed a place to sleep. still don’t know whether or not said uncle believes or not, because hey, it’s Personal) i think my biggest personal relationship to religion, and christianity specifically, has been academic. yeah, we learned a brief synopsis of world religions at school (and i remember the class used to be called ‘christianity, religion, and ethics’ and got changed to ‘religion, beliefs, and ethics’ which is cool. it was probably a big discourse but i was a teen who didnt care), but also my bachelor degree is in art history, specifically western art history because it’s a vast sprawling topic and they had to distill it as best they could SIGHS. western art history is deeply entangled with the history of the church, and i think the most i’ve ever learnt about christianity is through these classes (one of my professors wrote an article about how jesus can be interpreted as queer which i Deeply Appreciate). i also specifically tried to diversify my academic input by picking classes such as ‘depiction of muslims and jewish people in western medieval art’ and ‘art and religion’ when i was an exchange student in canada, along with 101 classes in anthropology and archaeology. because i think human diversity and culture is very cool and i want to absorb that knowledge as best as i can. i think my exchange semester in canada was the most religiously diverse space have ever been in, to be honest. now as an adult i have more christian friends again, but friends who chose it for themselves, and who practice in ways that sound good and healthy, like a place of solace and community for them. the vast majority of my friends are queer too, yknow?? i’ve known too many people who have seen these identities as fated opposites, but they aren’t, they’re just parts of who people are. it’s like... i genuinely love people having their faiths and beliefs so much. i love people finding that space where they belong and feel safe in. i love people having communities and heritages and connections. i deeply respect and admire opening up that space for faith within any other communities, like... if i’m going to listen to a podcast about scepticism and cults, i am not going to listen to it if it’s just an excuse to bash religion. i think the search for truth needs to be compassionate, always. you can acknowledge that crystals are cool and make people happy AND that multi level marketing schemes are deeply harmful and prey on people in vulnerable situaitons. YOU KNOW???? so now’s when i bring up Apocalypse Comic again. one of the things i really did like about it was, ironically, how it handled religion. in its setting, people have returned to old gods, and their magic drew power from their religion. characters from different regions had different beliefs and sources. in the first arc, they meet the spirit of a lutheran pastor, who ends up helping them with her powers. it was treated as, in the creators own words, ‘just another mythology’. and honestly? i love that. it was one of the nicest depictions i’ve seen of christianity in fiction, and as something that could coexist with other faiths. I Vibe With That. and then, uh, then... bunny dystopia comic. it just... it just straight up tells you christianity is literally the only way to..?? be a good person??? i guess?? i’m still kind of struggling to parse what exactly it wanted to say. the evil social media overlord bird tells you the bible makes you a DANGEROUS FREETHINKER, but the comic also treats rewriting the bible or finding your own way to faith as something,, Bad. The Bible Must Remain Unsullied. Never Criticize The Bible. also, doing good things just for social media clout is bad and selfish. you should do good things so you don’t burn in hell instead. is that the message? it reads a lot like the comic creator already had the idea for the comic, but only got the urge to make it after she was converted and needed to spread the good word. you do you i guess!! i understand that she’s new to this and probably Going Through Something, and this is just a step on her journey. but the absolute self-loathing she described in her afterword... it does not sound good. i’m just some agnostic kid so what do i know, but i do not think that kind of self-flagellating is a kind faith to have for yourself. i might not ever have been properly religious, but you know what i AM familiar with? a brain wired for ocd and intrusive thoughts. for a lot of my life i’ve struggled with my own kind of purity complex. i’ve had this really strange sensitivity for things that felt ‘tainted’. i’ve experienced having to remove more and more words from my vocabulary because they were Bad and i did not want to sully my sentences. it stacked, too - if a word turned out to be an euphemism for something, i could never feel comfortable saying it again. i still struggle a bit with these things, but i have confronted these things within myself. i’ve had to make myself comfortable with imperfection and ‘tainted’ things and accept that these are just, arbitrary categories my mind made up. maybe that’s the reason i can’t do organized religion even if i found one that fit for me - just like diets can trigger disordered eating, i think it would carve some bad brainpaths for me. so yeah i’m worried i guess! i’m worried when people think it’s so good that she finally found the correct faith even if it’s causing all this self-hate. is there really not a better way? or are they just trusting she’ll find it? and yeah it’s none of my concern, it’s like, i worry for jkr too but i do not want her within miles of my trans self thANKS. so like, i DO enjoy media that explores faith and what it means for you. my favourite band is the oh hellos, which DOES draw on faith and the songwriter’s experience with it. because of my religious iliteracy most of it has flown over my head for years and i’m like “oh hey this is gay” and then only later realize it was about god all along Probably. i like what they’ve done with the place. also, stormlight archive - i had NO idea sanderson was mormon, the way he writes his characters, many of whom actively discuss religion and their relationship to it. i love that about the books, honestly. Media That Explores Religion In A Complex And Compassionate Way... we like that i’ve been thinking about my own stories too, and how i might want to explore faith in them. most of my settings are based on magic and it’s like, what role does religion have in a world where gods are real and makes u magic. in sparrow spellcaster’s story, xe creates? summons? an old god - brings them to life out of the idea of them. it’s a story about hubris, mostly. then there’s iphimery, the story where i am actively fleshing out a pantheon. there’s no doubt the gods are real in the fantasy version of iphimery, they are the source of magic and sustain themselves on slivers of humanity in exchange. but in the modern version, where they are mostly forgotten? that’s some room for me to explore, i think. especially the character of timian, who comes from a smaller town and moves to a large and diverse city. in the fantasy story, the guardian deity chooses his sister as a vessel. in the modern setting, that does not happen, and i don’t yet know what does, but i really want timian to be someone who struggles with his identity - his faith, his sexuality, the expectations cast upon him by his hometown... i’m sure it’s a cliché story retold through a million gay characters but i want to do it too okay. i want to see him carve out his own way of existing within the world because i care him and want to see him thrive!!! alrighty i THINK that’s all i wanted to write. thanks if you read all of this, and if you didn’t that’s super cool have a nice day !

[sparkling-pink-lemonade]

(Different anon) Honestly I think it would have been better to just. Not react to the anti in a sexual manner At All /nm Because like...Idk, I don't think it's really okay to do that without consent Anyway (not that the anti's behavior was any better, of course). Discussing nsfw topics is not consent to being talked to in a sexual manner by a stranger, regardless of age. At that point, it strikes me as responding to harassment with...sexual harassment.

I think responding in a snarky way is fine, I'm not trying to say that you have to be nice to those who treat you poorly. But in my personal opinion, it's never appropriate to make sexual comments directly towards a real person without their consent, regardless of age. Them being a minor just makes it worse

(Not mad btw, this isn't intended to be read aggressively, so I apologize if it comes off that way)

Would have it been better? Yeah. I answered the previous ask with #morally grey because I knew it would have been the right thing to do to fix it. But if I'm honest, this blog exists because sometimes I don't want to be the better person. I have my own moral code, and I'm aware parts of it will contradict the morals of greater society, and such isn't always the best course of action. But isn't that just the spirit of proship in a way? To stick with your own morals, against the grain of society?

I fully expect people to not agree with how I handled the situation. And if it's enough to upset someone, I don't mind getting blocked.

That out of the way, it's possible their post could be considered harassment. While it lacked the criteria of targeting me with the intention to upset or intimidate, it had provided people a way to easily find my blog and send an attack if they wanted. But it was hardly harassment to me, and outcome is just as important as intent. It caused no distress, just amusement.

And then my post attached no name other than my own. No reblog, no @, no tags to search. On top of that, it is with the knowledge the referenced person already has me blocked. It's more akin to mockery and talking behind someone's back, intent to make fun of the idea of someone and the language used. The outcome? Well... unless they go out of their way to circumvent their own block and cyberstalk, or someone deliberately shows them a screenshot to spy on me on their behalf, the outcome is just the ignorance of never knowing about my post.

Is it mean spirited and rude of me? Oh absolutely. Inappropriate and a bit disgusting? Yeah. But this is the internet. Society at our fingertips. The good, the bag, the ugly. I don't want everyone to agree with me, and I don't want to be morally pure. And if someone has the ability to just step out into the hearth without the guidance of a guardian, they must use the tools at their disposal to protect themselves and maintain their boundaries, and understand that not everyone cares to have their best interest in mind.

I'd say the best course of action against mine when dealing with discomfort is an attempt at reason if bold enough, and then block if no change is made. And if I were dumb and cruel enough to escalate the situation, go out of my way to make sure they see and continue to receive unwanted comments, then more excessive measures against harassment in which I would be facing punishment at that point.

Anyways, I'm not mad either~ I just love finally being able to be forward and unsanitized in an argument regarding morals/ethics.

[cfiesler]

thoughts on AO3 from a content moderation researcher

A few days ago I tweeted some thoughts about current conversations around content moderation and racism on AO3. I thought I’d reproduce here:

OK I'm going to weigh in on the tagging/content moderation conversation happening right now regarding Archive of Our Own. To be clear, this is me as a content moderation researcher who has also studied the design of AO3, NOT me as a member of the OTW legal committee.

To clarify the issue for folks: Racism is a problem in fandom. In addition to other philosophical and structural things regarding OTW, there have been suggestions for adding required content warnings or other mechanisms to deal with racism in stories posted to the archive.

Here's a description of the content warning system from a paper I published about the design of AO3, in which I used this as an example of designing to mitigate the value tension of inclusivity versus safety:

“Knowing that this tension would exist, and wanting to protect users from being triggered or stumbling across content they did not want to see, AO3 added required warnings for stories. These include graphic violence, major character death, rape, and underage sex. These warnings were chosen based on conventions at the time, what fan fiction writers already tended to warn for when posting stories elsewhere. Warnings are not only required, but are part of a visual display that shows up in search results. One early concern was that requiring these warnings might necessitate spoilers—for example, telling the reader ahead of time that there was a major character death. Therefore, AO3 added an additional warning tag: ‘Choose not to use archive warnings.’ Seeing this tag in search results essentially means ‘read at your own risk.’ Most interviewees found this to be a solution that did a good job at taking into account different kinds of needs."

The idea is certain kinds of objectionable content is allowed to be there as long as it's properly labeled. Content will not be removed for having X, but it can be removed for not being tagged properly for having X. This allows users to not have to see content labeled with X.

My students and I have studied content moderation systems in a number of contexts, including on Reddit and Discord, and I actually think that this system is kind of elegant and other platforms can learn from it. That said, it relies on strong social norms to work.

One of the big problems with content moderation is that not everyone has the same definition of what constitutes a rule violation. Like... folks on a feminist hashtag almost certainly have a different definition of what constitutes "harassment" than on the gg hashtag.

A few years ago we analyzed harassment policies on a bunch of different platforms and usually it's just like "don't harass people" but okay what does that mean? I guarantee you there are people on twitter who think rape threats aren't harassment.

So a nice thing about communities moderating themselves--like on subreddits--is that they can create their own rules and have a shared understanding of what they mean (here’s a paper about rules on Reddit). So you can have a rule about harassment and within your community know what that means.

I've talked for a long time about the strong social norms in fandom and how this has allowed in particular for really effective self regulation around copyright. In fact I wrote about this really recently based on interviews conducted in 2014. HOWEVER -

Generally, I think social norms are not as strong in fandom as they used to be, in part because it's just gotten bigger and there are more people and also some generational differences and we're more spread out. (My PhD advisee) Brianna & I wrote about this for TWC.

So the point here is that without those very strong shared norms, definitions differ - across sub-fandoms, across platforms, across people. Whether that thing we're defining is commercialism, harassment, or racism.

This isn't to say that there *shouldn't* be a required content warning for racism in fics, but I think it's important to be aware how wrought enforcement will be because no matter how it is defined, a subset of fandom will not agree with that definition.

That said, design decisions like this are statements. When AO3 chose the required warnings, it was a statement about what types of content it is important to protect the community from. I would personally support a values-based decision that racism falls into that category.

Design also *influences* values. An example of this was AO3's decision to include the "inspired by" tag which directly signaled (through design) that remixing fics without explicit permission was okay. Another quote from the paper:

“Similarly, Naomi described a policy decision of AO3 that was a deliberate attempt to influence a value. Prior work understanding fandom norms towards re-use of content has shown something of a disconnect, with different standards for different types of work [15,16]. Surprisingly, although fan authors themselves are building on others’ work, some don’t want people to remix their remixes. In Naomi’s original blog post, there is some argument between fans about what AO3 should do about this, with suggestions for providing a mechanism for fan writers to give permission for remixing. Naomi described their ultimate design, and feels that in the time that has followed the creation of AO3, the values of the community have actually shifted to be more accepting of this practice:

‘We had baked in right from the beginning that you could post a work to the archive that was a remix, or sequel, or translation, or a podfic or whatever, based on another work, another fannish work. As long as you gave credit, you didn’t need permission. In fact, we built a system into the archive where it notifies [the original author]. That was because we were coming from a philosophy where what we’re doing is fair use. It’s legal. We are making transformative work. We don’t need permission from the original copyright holder. That’s why fanfic is legitimate. But what’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander… So, I think that’s an example, actually, where archive and OTW almost got a little bit ahead of the curve, got a little bit ahead of the broader community’s internal values. That was a deliberate concerted decision on our part.’”

A design change to AO3 that forces consideration of whether there is racism in a story you're posting could have an impact on the overall values of the community by signaling that this consideration is necessary AND that you should be thinking of a community definition of racism.

Also important: content moderation has the potential to be abused. And I know that this happens in fandom, even around something as innocuous as copyright, since I've heard stories of harassment-based DMCA takedown campaigns.

There's a LOT of tension in fandom around public shaming as a norm enforcement mechanism, and I would want to see this feature used as a "gentle reminder" and not a way to drum people out of fandom. (See more about that in this paper.)

That said, I think these reminders are needed. There will be a LOT of "uh I didn't know that was racist" and that requires some education. Which is important but also an additional burden on volunteer moderators who may be grappling with this themselves.

This is more a thread of cautions than solutions, unfortunately. Because before there can be solutions, we need: (1) an answer to a very hard question, which is "what is racism in fanfiction/fandom?" and this answer needs to come from a diverse group of stakeholders, and (2) a solution for enforcement/moderation that both makes sure that folks directly impacted by racism are involved AND that we're not asking for burdensome labor from already marginalized groups.

All of this comes down to: Content moderation is HARD for so many reasons, both on huge platforms and in communities. AO3 is kind of a unique case with its own problems but I am optimistic about solutions because so many people care about the values in fandom.

I’m still thinking about this and welcome others’ thoughts!

[kittyycandiezzpresents]

another response to @th06, part 1

part 1 (here!), PART 2, PART 3, PART 4 AND FINALLY PART 5

Alright, time to break this into points!

if you do not want to respond to the consequences of an unprovoked “callout” post, then you should never have made it in the first place. Calling out users who seek to cause harm or promote real life harm is perfectly fine. However, what i will not tolerate or stand for is the needless “exposing” of users who are minding their own business and using the correct tags--you would have never saw the post that offended you if you had installed a proper blocklist, there will always be content online that you do not like. I find it extremely shallow to pull something like this and not even bother to deal with the results you may receive back. On your own document you’ve written:

“I will be deleting any asks that choose to argue with me.”

I find this very childish, if you are not willing to handle responses to starting something like this, you should’ve reconsidered making it in the first place.

There is nothing wrong with having limits on what you prefer in fiction, and to use some of your own words--the point where it becomes wrong is when you begin to target those who don’t agree with you. I would have had no problem with a rant on how you dislike proship content, what i do have a problem with is outing us publicly when we’ve done no harm or intend to--and definitely do not support these subjects in reality.

Next up!

I do not agree with your stance on what cannot be depicted in a positive light in fiction, we depict many other immoral or straight up illegal things in glorifying ways--such as gore, murder, various crimes and overindulgence in drugs--so i do not see how any less moral the shipping of two fictional brothers is. I find your view strange to use some more of your own terms. I may not agree with you and find your views “strange”, but i am not going to out you unprovoked, with 2 blocked attempts...

...or write a google document digging up events that were cleared back in october, which you only heard secondhandedly--imply dangerous allegations such as supporting incest, grooming children and antisemitism (intentional or not!) then just walk away, deciding that the issue is “overwith” and refusing to respond to asks regarding it--that is not who i am and i’m only retaliating because of what’s been thrown at me and @magicalcardinal​.

Here you’ve admitted to have been lurking on our socials outside of discord and monitoring our activity, I seriously can’t comprehend why you’d go through all of this trouble, exposing yourself to more content you dislike--instead of blocking us and advising your friend to as well, and never having to see it again...

But instead you chose harassment, and that will not go ignored on my blog.

if you and those users do not want to see either of our posts period, regardless of our accordingly tagged proship ones, it should be up to them to decide and not your job to make public announcements on a non explicit post (we legally cannot post explicit images as we are minors) that barely even constitutes as a hug and more of a slight cuddle. There’s nothing wrong with advising friends or others, it just becomes a problem when it’s done in a manner like this...

Next up!

Humor is subjective, its in the eye of the beholder. My intent was not to mock the tragedy of the holocaust, but just to make a joke about a character in a discord server. The joke you mention doesn’t even mention hitler, jewish people, the holocaust or ww2 by name.

“Dr tinker was kicked from art school” does not equal antisemitism.

Explain how this = hostility to or prejudice against jewish people. Explain how this 7 word discord post focusing on ub funkeys relates to the definition of what you claim.

You are going to find jokes you believe are tasteless in your opinion, but that’s just life, everyone has a different sense of humor. Once again the only reason i thought it was appropriate to make a joke like and retaliated after criticism was because there was one containing a full out slur, if you are the owner or manager of a server and decide to crack down on distasteful humor, please delete your posts containing full blown slurs--something that is a universal no-no and a common rule in servers of all sorts. If controversial racy/humor wasn’t allowed previously (actually no, the r word joke got to stay only with a cw/tw) I would have simply not made the joke in the first place.

Another thing that I think is important to mention is that one of the same people who bashed me over a subtle hitler joke turned around and had no problem with an explicit ww2 one about wario (a japanese character!) dying in the bombing of hiroshima “while eating spicy curry” later. from. the. same. world. war. Due to the amount of toxicity and harassment stemming from this poorly run server, i’ve had no choice but to slip back in under an alt to grab screenshots (both desktop and mobile), video and message link proof of their hypocritical behavior...

This joke is allowed: “wario dies in the bombing of hiroshima while eating spicy curry.mp3″

but “dr tinker was kicked from art school”: this is disrespect! it must be deleted immediately, unfunny and immoral!

What. Even. Is. This. Server.

This joke wasn’t even uploaded to funkey memes, funkey memes but cursed, memes or memes but cursed! it’s in figure discussion, the channel for discussing the figurines themselves! bone and lucia, who were relentless in deeming the hitler joke disgusting, seem unaffected by this--i can’t tell if “POG” is replying to platinum, bone and haz or all three?? the thing that really takes the cake here is that again, lucia is the co-owner of this “pg13 minor friendly safespace”.

Here is the video itself

due to hitting the limit of images and videos that can be uploaded on mobile, and that this is not a youtube video but one stored on my pc--this response will be broken into parts: part 1 (here!), part 2, part 3, part 4 and finally part 5

[ethrenisnotthehero]

What is Fair Use, and When Does Purpose Matter?

Hey, folks.

I’m sorry for being so aggressive yesterday.

I’ll admit that when I wake up to asks in my inbox telling me to die or go eat shit because of how much of a big mean hypocrite I am, I get really tired of dealing with people in this fandom who have no intention to strike up a good-faith conversation. I want to remind everyone that my askbox is for good-faith questions or support for Jill only. Things meant to start a fight or slander either of us won’t be published, and the senders will be blocked.

I had someone ask, much more nicely, this morning to explain why I think using the avatar is the right thing to do, so I’m going to explain that under the cut. I’m also going to make a second post today to address why I’m still active and what my goals are here.

Fair Use is a United States Copyright law that “promotes freedom of expression by permitting the unlicensed use of copyright-protected works in certain circumstances.” Sometimes, original and copyrighted works can be used when they meet specific criteria, even when it would be otherwise illegal to use such work. You’ve probably heard of Fair Use on YouTube, because it’s often a point of contention between creators who reproduce works and copyright holders who issue claims and strikes against them.

In order for something to be protected under Fair Use, it needs to be scrutinized under four separate categories that courts determine constitute Fair Use in reproduced works:

Purpose and character of the use

Nature of the copyrighted work

Amount and substantiality of the portion used

Effect of the use upon the potential market

Let’s take a look at these categories one by one.

Purpose and Character of the Use

How the copyrighted material is being used is extremely important in determining the fair use of the reproduced work. If the work is being used to generate revenue, it is probably not protected under Fair Use. Usually, the copyrighted material must be being reproduced for non-profit purposes, though that is not the only factor in determination. Some uses generally protected are: journalism, parody, criticism or commentary, and education. Here are some examples of Purpose and Character in action:

A user sees a sketch someone on Twitter shared as a WIP for an upcoming commission. They decide to take that sketch and use it as a base for their own commission. This is not Fair Use.

A user creates an avatar and tells their followers that it cannot be used without their permission. Someone writes a blog story about the artists on Tumblr, and includes a screenshot of their identifying information, including their avatar. This is Fair Use.

Nature of the Copyrighted Work

What the copyrighted work is also matters. Factual works and nonfiction are the most likely materials to be covered under Fair Use, but the only thing exclusively not covered is an unpublished work like a private manuscript. Courts also disapprove of the use of commercially available materials; if it’s for sale, you have to buy it! This is the clause of fair use that gets creators like those at YouTube in a sticky situation, because the only real way to determine is something meets this criteria is to have it determined by a judge.

Amount and Substantiality of the Portion Used

How much of the copyrighted work is used is another point of Fair Use. This is another category that is hard to determine outside of a court, but it’s generally accepted in IP law that using only what you need is likely to be covered under the law. Using an entire picture or photograph is likely not covered, but using a low-resolution image or a thumbnail has been ruled in precedent cases as Fair Use. Using clips of a movie to summarize it is probably Fair Use, as is using some song lyrics or an excerpt from a book. The more transformative a reproduced work is (the more it has been changed) the more likely it is to qualify under this section. Here are some examples of Amount and Substantiality:

An artist decides that they like a piece of art on deviantArt, and downloads the piece to make their own. They reproduce the exact same scene with their own characters, changing the faces and colors of the characters in it. This is not Fair Use.

An artist decides that they like a pose from a photograph they saw on deviantArt. They download the piece, and use it as a reference for a pose in a piece that they are making. The end result is a completely new picture compared to the reference. This is Fair Use.

Effect of the Use Upon the Potential Market

This is one of the easier determinants of Fair Use, and one of the most important ones. This clause of Fair Use comes down to what kind of access was originally available: if you could realistically purchase the work or the rights to the copyrighted work, then it is usually not covered under Fair Use. If using the work will damage the market for that particular work or reroute revenue for that work from the original copyright holder, then it is also probably not Fair Use. Here are some instances of Effect of Use:

A YouTuber makes a channel where they summarize movies for the public. They do not purchase the movies, and they use the main parts of the movie, sped up, to give users the full experience. People who watch their channel do it so that they will not have to purchase the movie themselves, thus depriving the original copyright holders of the revenue for the movie they’ve enjoyed. This is not Fair Use.

A YouTuber makes a channel where they summarize movies for the public. They purchase the movies and use some clips of main events in between commentary on the film. At the end, they leave the viewers wondering what the full movie is like, and they encourage users to go watch the movies for themselves, providing links to the original work. This is Fair Use.

Is the Blog’s Avatar Protected by Fair Use?

The only way to realistically know would be to go before a judge, but I believe so. The avatar in question is used to criticize prominent members of the community and educate users about what Ren did to his survivors [Purpose]. I only used Ethren’s face, because that is what Ren is known for, and transformed it as a thumbnail meant to convey that purpose [Amount]. I could not have purchased Ren’s cover photo, since it was not for sale, and neither could anyone else [Effect]. I believe since it was a publicly published work that was used to identify Ren and his characters, the clause of Nature is also met.

If you don’t agree that my use of the image is protected under Fair Use, or believe it is protected but is morally wrong, I understand your argument and you have every right to believe me a hypocrite. I don’t automatically believe that people who don’t believe I’m using Fair Use or who think I have morally ulterior motives are necessarily supporters of Ren; however, I do think that people who have supported someone who defends art thieves and people who continue to support them themselves have very little weight when discussing what is and what is not protected under copyright.

It’s completely understandable to have your own opinions. I encourage you to do so! IP law is incredibly complicated and it’s important to be educated both as art audiences and as artists. Art theft is wrong. Fair Use is important. Those things are sometimes at odds. What isn’t okay is sending death threats to people you don’t agree with. No one deserves to be harassed, abused, and told to “go die,” period. I’ve always believe that, and while Ren is a gross little narcissist monster, he doesn’t deserve death threats, either.

Be good people.

[rpbetter]

I genuinely don’t think the problem is as deep as people are seeing it as, with that whole resource blog and vent blog drama. I was there when it began, and it started because someone sent a submission that was recognizable enough to trace to that resource blog, who ended up calling themself out, and then a bunch of people dogpiling them, and then it turned into the 2021 edition of good old tumblr wank, mocking sockpuppets included. I essentially watched a bunch of 30 year olds call each other doodooheads like a couple kids on the playground, but at least kids forgive and forget after a day or two.

That’s probably why they’re avoiding this situation like the plague. The first time a submission went through about that resource blog, it made people feud like the Montagues and Capulets. Obviously they don’t wanna risk fueling that type of drama again. If it’s true that they aren’t letting these submissions through and it isn’t tied to reasons like tumblr eating the ask, then it’s probably because they don’t wanna be involved in this drama anymore. And I don’t blame them, because honestly, even as an observer I’m tired of seeing it, I can’t imagine how exhausting it must be for y’all who are actually involved. Geez. Who even has the energy for this much drama anyway? I’m tired just getting outta bed.

Sorry, Anon, I really had to!

Anyway, I'm sorry it took forever to get to your message, not only did I need a break from this, I needed to space out things related to it, it had taken over the blog. I appreciate that, despite how over it all you are, you were polite about how you feel. I know that is not always easy, and I do really appreciate it!

I hope that you don't feel I am being hostile to you about anything I say, it isn't meant that way. Differences of opinion, when not expressed hatefully, are always welcome here. I'm just going to try to express some of this situation from another perspective, and full disclosure, I'm pretty pissed off about it whether or not I actively want to be. This did impact my hobby, it did hurt people I care about, and I cannot believe such an unnecessary act lead to shit that is still going on.

On the first point...most things aren't as deep as we're given to feel they are after we've been made to feel incredibly unsafe, targeted, repeatedly let down and lied to, and experienced an astronomical level of sketchy behavior out of muns in a position that one is supposed to have some minor level of responsibility (as well as decent comportment) within. So, maybe it isn't that deep, but at this point, I very much cannot blame people for their concerns and suspicions.

And it was incredibly sketchy. CoaR, I'm just going to say it, everyone knows of which blog we're speaking at this point, did all of the following, breaking their own rules for moderation repeatedly:

allowed an actual, openly stated, callout blog to interact with their posts

allowed a meme blog to use their posts for the point of off-blog drama mongering, callouts, and outing themselves

would not moderate this situation as stated in their rules, when they've a bit of nasty record in the not too distant past of mass-blocking for far less and far more questionable reasons

did bother to post about how they weren't getting involved, as though this did not break multiple rules and absolutely is one's problem if it is your vent blog someone is using to create and foster bullying - simply giving the bizarre statement that blocking won't help anyone, when that isn't the point at all lol the point is being intolerant of people using your blog, that has to operate on a basis of being as safe a place as possible for venting (which is drama), this is about a stance and blog security, not being anyone's parent

just as weirdly vaguely threatening everyone first with all the mods "watching," because that's not actually implying an Orwellian parental role no one asked for, then with Sky once again misunderstanding the difference between being a " disciplinarian" and an ass

consistent lack of transparency on all counts

and then, yeah, there is the choice of publishing submissions/rebuttals combined with all of this and those submissions/rebuttals being what they are - not all related to "the drama," or in violation of the rules either, but the apparent willingness to publish them from one side of "the drama" there for a bit

I cannot blame people for feeling like all of this combined is a legitimately sketchy situation. One in which they've already, again, been made to feel unsafe within because COAR was used as a list for callouts.

When people see someone like Raven getting wildly different treatment by not being so much as warned, they're going to feel suspicion about the mod(s). It makes it so much worse that they chose to make the statements they did instead of a transparent, reasonable one like, "We apologize that CoaR was used the way it was, we should have blocked the callouts blog right away, but didn't. To reiterate the rules we've had in place for years, this blog is never to be used for callouts or taking bullying off-blog. Due to how widespread the problem has become, we will not be publishing anything related to it any longer. Submissions will be deleted so we can begin putting this behind us."

Acknowledge fault, apologize for it, say what you're doing to mitigate it now. That's it. Don't actively make it worse!

About the submissions...I know I'm alone in having tested that out. It isn't limited to things that either break the rules or are related to the issue. It's very select topics that are a bit uncomfortably aligned with the bias displayed, and from very select blogs. That's a problem. It's not selectively publishing based on drama-avoidance or rules, what CoaR has always done and no one here is taking an issue with.

I have 0 interest in things like trackers, they're far too easy/tempting to use maliciously for most people, and at the very best, they foster an environment of paranoia. What I know about them comes from really minimal personal experience (I wanted to see what posts people were most interested in on another blog, but it felt creepy with the amount of information I had, so I dropped that very fast) and what mutuals who use them have told me/questions they've answered.

So, is it possible the mod(s) is selectively deleting submissions from blogs they feel are a problem? Yes, it is totally possible. Do I know that for a fact? No, I totally do not. My point is that this is exactly the sort of paranoia that takes off when too many suspicious things happen back to back. You begin seeking the answers you are not getting, and you're seeking them because every day for a month or two, your experience logging in has been one of what the fresh hell. It's a need to insulate yourself from further exposure to harassment.

It's a very simple formula: act sketchy, people look at you like you're sketchy.

And I'm not going to condemn anyone for that.

I will also say that, unless several people deleted their comments or have me blocked in multiple places they somehow know of and take issue with, I did not see what you are describing when I read over the total explosion that happened...what, like a month, two months ago at this point? It was very fresh at the time.

What I saw was someone having submitted about a meme blog screenshotting their mutual's rules. Raven going off about it in a reblog. Two commentators trying to discuss the issue and finally, just saying they weren't surprised what meme blog it was once Raven outted themselves like a fully hinged individual interested in following CoaR's rules.

One of those s commentators is a friend, the mun whose rules were in the posts is a friend. I've never been anything but transparent about that. I'm also familiar with some of the other parties who ended up going on hiatus, but only from discussions on the vent blog over the years. So, yes, I do have personal investment here, and I do not feel like any of those people telling Raven and the callout blog they were at least involved with that their behavior was bullshit can be equated to immature shit slinging. There were even two muns who repeatedly tried to have a civil conversation with Raven, specifically, and for their efforts, got some of the most wildly juvenile treatment.

The worst things I saw came from hate anons and the callout blog.

The people receiving that treatment were largely driven off tumblr. For a time, forever, it differs with all of them. So, I feel like saying that about the thirty-year-olds thing is a little off. I'm not trying to be shitty, Anon, but the muns who tried to address Raven's bullshit were all of that age range. They're definitely continuing the drama, they're not here. They can't feel comfortable enough to be on their own blogs still.

I also am required ethically to say that we all really need to stop with throwing around ages like this. Again, I'm not trying to be hostile to you, Anon. I've been trying to show other people's perspective in this (it doesn't matter if you agree or not, I just think it's important to understanding, stopping, and prevent problems to have a fuller perspective that we often lack because we are incredibly tired of whatever is going on, and you're right, we are all really damn tired and also Tired), and as it is an advice blog, I try to address problems here. The pervasive ageism in the tumblr RPC is a problem.

It's a problem that gets discussed when it involves adults not wanting to interact with minors and, as I've seen it put several times, "treating them like the plague." There are a billion "conversations" and complaints about that, but there aren't many at all when it comes to the RPC's bizarre ideas about what age constitutes an adult (you're an actual child until around 23, you're ancient and need to die already, you pedo, at 26) and what being an adult actually is.

You do not turn thirty and lose your hobbies. You also do not turn thirty and become an ultra-mature adult, no leveling up into arcane Adult Knowledge and Behavior unlocks when you wake up on your thirtieth birthday. Between the ages of 17 and 27, you go through so many rapid changes in your cognition, but it levels off considerably after that. You're largely the same person at 32 as you were at 27, and you cannot say that about being...17 and 20, 22 and 25. It begins to take longer to see changes in who you are, those changes are less extreme - your personality, preferences, and viewpoints remain largely the same, they just refine a little here and there.

There is no line at which people "should" stop engaging in any hobby, and it's incredibly gross that the RPC seems to think anyone out of college-age should have no interests, let alone passionate ones, outside of going to work, having a family, and paying bills. That's a bit horrifyingly 1950's isn't it? It's also really misogynistic, considering that the primary base of the RPC is female or afab. When you deal in this, you're literally telling thirty-year-old people with uteruses that they should have no interests outside of birthing children and caring for them.

This isn't what you were doing, Anon, but it's part of the tumorous growth of this ideology that we casually throw around things like "a bunch of 30-year-olds" to make a point. We've seriously got to stop doing that, it isn't a message that most of us would agree with. There are other ways of saying "I think these people should behave more maturely since they're adults."

If I said something like, "well, they were just in their mid-twenties lol what do you expect?" I'd get hate anons, pants would be shat in, and more importantly, it would be wrong. That needs to work both ways, this isn't a separate issue.

An issue that repeatedly comes down to the absurdity of finding differences and drawing lines into cages around people in an environment in which we have the freedom to be more equal than in offline reality. We're all just people here, all just writing and interacting and loving characters. That's all we need to be, and all we need to be judged on is our behavior.

I'm sorry that anyone behaved in a grossly inappropriate manner during any and all of this. It was a heated thing that came to involve too many people and too much harassment, and those are factors that will always see people behaving in ways they would not normally engage in.

And like I said, you don't become some wise master of maturity at thirty! There is a problem mun I'm currently dealing with on another blog that is my age who is one of the most immature people I have ever run into. I have mutuals and friends in the early to mid-twenties who I'm confident weren't as childish as this mun when they were literal children. So, do people thirty and over behave in a seriously unbecoming, childish as hell manner? Yes, they so do! Whether it should be this way or not, you can't expect everyone to be at the same maturity level psychologically at any given age. To me, that just says that I shouldn't age-type people negatively. It isn't relevant where their behavior is.

Otherwise, I'm holding people at some nebulous age over thirty to higher expectations than other equally adult-range people. It isn't acceptable for anyone to behave in the ways I witnessed and was subjected to. It's not even acceptable in teenagers, it's just more understandable (not excusable) because they're working with many things they quite literally cannot control at all times. To act this way is telling everyone below thirty that they're just immature, irresponsible, dicks. It's insulting to them to be labeled in this way, too, even if too many of them see it as a free pass and are, thus, okay with it right now. They won't be, eventually.

Anyway, again, I'm not trying to be shitty to you! I don't think you meant anything in your message in a nasty way, and I cannot say how much I appreciate that after the bullshit brought to this blog and that I've been dealing with privately to help some of those affected feel like the RPC is a place they're safe and welcome in again.

I am definitely tired! Everyone else involved is as well. At least, on what I have to term as "this side" of the equation. I cannot speak to the other side, obviously, but I think they got tired enough of it not being tolerated to be quiet at least. When you make it unfun for people like that, that's usually what happens, after all.

So, I don't think it's them trying to continue the drama. Most of the people I know have remained in their corners happily or been obliged to leave for a while. As for the other people with suspicions...like I said, there are a lot more factors going on here than wanting to perpetuate drama. Sometimes, when we try to make ourselves feel safe, vindicated/vindicate a friend, there isn't any other option but to have the topic come up or breed into suspicions, correct or incorrect ones.

It's a situation that CoaR had a great deal of culpability in, and as such, had a lot of power to mitigate this well before it got to suspicions of who was modding the blog. That wasn't done, and won't be. Like Raven's antics, I have to feel like they've brought some of this on themselves. I do not and will not condone any hate messages sent their way, but again, right or wrong, people do have a right to feel the way they are.

If I were you, I'd stay as far away from it as possible. I don't go on CoaR unless I have to in order to answer something. I had a single blog blocked over here until this all went down (hilariously, it happened to be one that was involved, too, sometimes the red flags are legit, folks), now I have a sadly large number of them. It's now added to liberally, and I hate to do that, I like this blog to be open even to people who disagree with me. I can't deal with the constant drama, though, and I'm not going to be in a new callout every month until I die. Outside of being true to my word about accepting any and all vent messages, I don't want to see it, I don't want to be involved with it. I tag the posts so that followers can filter it, but I'm not going to function as a semi-callout blog by telling people who they should avoid. Just that they should avoid anyone who is making them feel this tired and done. Myself included.

I hope things have settled down in your corner of the RPC since you sent this! They have over here, thankfully. I think most people are staying away from the vent blog and hoping a new and better one comes along. It's back to the usual drama of "stop calling muns pedos for aging up characters."