#but like I said a lot of these people hate Dany and Arya and are fine with them getting hate and being disliked

[fromtheseventhhell]

Common fandom complaint that you’re tired of hearing? It can be more than one

I'm tired of hearing about Sansa being the most unfairly hated character, especially when it comes with no acknowledgment of how horrible her stans act or the hate they give other female characters. It's just a demonstrably incorrect claim. Every other character is allowed to be disliked but we're all just expected to put Sansa on a pedestal cause she represents "true womanhood" or whatever the nonsense argument of the week is. Arya and Dany are two of the most casually hated and rewritten characters in the fandom and it barely gets talked about cause "feminism" in this fandom is only about female characters "pure" enough to deserve it. I just think it's gross to try and quantify how worthy a female character is of being defended from misogyny. At that point it's not even about defending Sansa from unfair hate, it's being upset that she isn't getting special treatment.

[whateverthedragonswant]

Rewatching 8x05 for writing reasons, which is just a brilliant episode, despite any reasons some might have to hate it, valid or invalid. Miguel Sapochnik is directing and you see his talent and epicness in every shot (that man deserves a freaking Emmy already, I said what I said) but also there are so many things being shown here that if you muted the episode after Daenerys makes her decision, during the battle scene, you would be able to tell exactly what each character is thinking and what's really going on in the story besides the surface action.

Which brings me to that one scene that a lot of people said the woman being attacked as a stand-in for Sansa in the episode for Jon. They are correct and here's how.

Jon is walking through the melee, only coming to life to defend himself when Lannister soldiers are trying to attack him. The Northerners aren't listening to him, they're attacking innocent civilians, Grey Worm is on a killing spree, Davos is trying to help people get away from the bloodshed, Dany is burning the city, Tyrion is off somewhere horrified, Cersei is watching in terror from the Red Keep... But during this scene, the sound is muted to a point where the sounds of battle happening all around Jon sound very far away. We're now seeing what Jon sees, we're in his shock fugue with him. We see on his left civilians, namely women, being brutalized by soldiers -> he keeps walking. We on his right a woman being knocked down to the ground while a child is watching in horror, blood spatter and bodies all around her (and obviously traumatized & also in danger herself since no one is left to protect her) -> he keeps walking. He then sees a Lanniser soldier telling people to run, something his soldiers should be doing (and something he himself should be doing like Davos) but he's not. While the sounds are still muted, Jon notices another Lannister soldier about to rush him and he goes into autopilot & fights the soldier off. He then looks around in horror.

This is not what he signed up for and he almost looks lost, like he doesn't know what to do. Then the sound comes back fully and he hears a scream. In all of the melee, chaos, and death around him, he hears this one woman above the rest and turns to see her being dragged into an alley to presumably be assaulted by one of his own men.

Sure enough, she's about to be and she is trying to crawl away when the man catches her again. Jon ends up saving her, threatening to run his sword through the man. When the latter tries to fight him off to go back to assault this woman, Jon kills him and tells the woman to hide.

So how is this woman standing in for Sansa besides the obvious?

Two ways.

1) Ramsay was the former Warden of the North, the former bastard of Roose Bolton who was a Northerner who "served" Robb Stark, the first King in the North, before betraying him to the Lannisters. The soldier Jon faces off with is a Northerner and is supposed to be under Jon's command as Warden of the North and the former second King in the North.

2) Sansa is who stirs Jon into action when he feels lost.

Every.

Time.

And the parallels between the gif above with Dany and the dagger to the Northern soldier that had Jon's sword run through him, and Jon's staring almost sadly at the man, realizing he had to kill one of his own are far from being coincidental.

Not only was this a precursor to what would occur in 8x06 (and why Jon would make the decision he did) but it also is symbolic of the dynamic between Jon and Sansa as a whole. She's the one who stirs him into action, no matter how terrified or traumatized or angry he might be in that moment (like the shock fugue). No matter how lost he might feel. She gives him direction and dare I say a purpose when he has none (after his death; after the WW are defeated & Dany has gone into tyrant mode).

No wonder we weren't allowed to see Sansa's (or Arya's) reaction to the news of his being a Targaryen.

No wonder Jon told Melisandre not to bring him back if he lost the Battle of the Bastards (after Sansa told him if he lost, she wouldn't be going back to Ramsay alive).

No wonder Jon was not happy with Sansa on the dock in 8x06.

She's always stirred him into action when he doesn't want to be or know how to do it himself (after his death).

He passed a woman he could have saved.

He passed a child he could have helped.

He saw someone on the other side helping and doing the right thing.

The only time he steps in to help someone else is the woman about to be assaulted.

(x) "You are the shield that guards the realms of men. You've always tried to do the right thing. No matter the cost. You've tried to protect people. Who's the greatest threat to the people now?" (no reaction)

"Do you think I'm the last man she'll execute? Who is more dangerous than the rightful heir to the Iron Throne?" (no reaction)

"And your sisters? Do you see them bending the knee?" (a little bit of a reaction)

"Why do you think Sansa told me the truth about you? Because she doesn't want Dany to be queen." (more of a reaction)

"No, but you do. And you have to choose now." (he hesitatingly goes to confront Dany and then 🗡️)

It's not just about her being his "sister" or because she's Lady Stark or family or because they were the last two Starks once upon a time. She literally stirs him into action and gives him purpose. Her pushing to go back to Winterfell led to him caring about the WW invasion again. Her being the one he chooses to protect ended a tyrant and changed history, leading for her to become the first Queen in the North and regain Northern Independence, where she can be forever safe.

It was always Sansa for him, starting in 6x04.

[houseofjaqen]

hello ! first I´m not considering house of dragon as an adaptation of the book fire and blood , I think it´s just a fantasy show . and I don´t know if you are watching it. My question is: why people and the showrunners are pretty sure that daenerys is the princess who was promised !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??????????? I watched daemon vision in the final episode and I was like wtffff , daemon litterally saw bloodraven , white walkers and daenerys holding her baby dragons and people in the comments declaring that she is the princess she is the song of ice and fire wtfffffffffffffffff,

after what they did in the final episode , I´m pretty sure now that jaqen is really a targaryen the way daemon touched the weirwood reminds me of how jaqen touched it : it´s a confirmation that jaqen=aegon=the song of ice and fire=he is related to the tree

I repeat again I´m not considering the show as an adaptation , but after I watched it , they have connected everything to jaqen and dany and arya . why people won´t read the books and see the truth .

I´m sorry I have many things to say but really I believe now that jaqen is the most important character in the books and in the show .

bonus: rhaegar has already confirmed that his first son has the song of ice and fire , hotd did the opposite : dany has the song wtf so there´s no 3 heads of dragon wtf .....

this picture is from the comic book , they made jaqen look like a weirwood tree even the book confirmed it and arya said maybe the old gods have sent hin as an answer . are the people blind ???? they can´t see his importance -

I´m so sorry about this long ask but I have many things to say..

Oh my, I've just discovered my inbox thanks to you! Thank you, dear!

HOTD writers follow Game of Thrones because this is the official version made by HBO. George R. R. Martin gave them a free hand to adapt the books like they wanted. Lots of fans hate it and I hate it too but what can we do? GRRM can do whatever he wants. He chose them.

I hate how they ruin the story in the new show. I hate how they ruin the characters. They didn't learn anything from Game of Thrones mistakes. You are correct that this is not adaptation. This is assassination of the source material. It saddens me because they don't have to do this. They have Fire and Blood. They don't have to guess the ending.

Thanks for the Jaqen. We will get lots of that coolness when GRRM gives us the books. The three heads of the dragon and Prince Aegon in place of Jon parading as Aegon. You know what I mean. All these scenes in Harrenhal make me think about Jaqen and Arya. Alys could have seen them in her visions. It sucks that they won't show it in HOTD because they cut the story from Game of Thrones.

Let's keep fingers crossed for the books!

[lavalais76]

I was reading terrible things about Sansa Stark and now my blood is boiling. How could people HATE an 11 yr old child who has absolutely no control over her own life. They went as far as to saying the mountain-clan will kidnap her and she will marry Timit!!!!😳

They also say Sansa will remain in the Vale until the end of the last book, but have no objections to Arya and Dany on a revenge killing spree. And for God's sake don't mention Sansa with Jon. They absolutely go INSANE, saying Dany and Jon will save humanity. Dany can't save anyone if she is killing millions of people and burning others alive.

Sansa will kill LF with the help of Timit is what they say and OHHH, Jon will marry Val. How TF can Val be QINT when she is a wilding and no real princess. She looks the part as Jon says, but we ALL know what kind of woman Jon REALLY CRAVE. A high born willowy creature who brushes her hair waiting for some knight to save her.

Jon craves Sansa Stark aNd I personally believe he always HAVE. My response to "these idiots was this: (and I could be wrong) but who knows.

Alyas Karstark was a red herring. Sansa is definitely the girl in grey. Miranda also has a grey cloak that went missing and WHY would Miranda mention Jon being LC to Sansa? There is a reason for all of that. Just like Arya and Jon were to fall in love in original version, it's going to be Sansa and Jon.

Jon even says he has no sister (,5Never considered Sansa a sister) he then says “my half sister truly” (that's what he and Sansa referred to each other as) He mistakes Melsandra for Ygritte, and says all robes are GREY in the dark, yet suddenly hers were RED. Martin is a hell of a writer, and I was in denial about Sansa being the grey girl as well. Not anymore.

Sansa is getting the hell out of the Vale. There will be no kidnapping from mointain-clans or falling in love with a secondary character such as Timit. What sense would that even make? Some people act as if Sansa doesn't matter, or she is some side character when she has one of the most tragic SAD stories in the whole series. She is scared and do whatever she has to do to survive, even if it means allowing LF to kiss her and molest her in which she has NO CONTROL over. It also blows my mind how people were “shipping” (and I hate that word) Sansa Stark and the HOUND of all monsters. Sansa has had 4 FALE BEASTS in her life. Joffery, Tyrion, The Hound, and LF. These men are evil and takes advantage of a young lonely 11 yr old girl who has been captured like a butterfly in a Jar. They are evil, YES; BUT they are NOT the real BEAST.

The real BEAST is Jon Snow. As we know, Jon was already a bit ruthless before the stabbings. (I do not think Jon died that night) For ONE: We need to think about the SNOW and hypothermia which can save the lives of people who are bleeding by knife wound or gunshot would. It's simple Science. Will Jon be on the brink of death and have a Near death experience? YES. There will be a lot of chaos at Castle Black and the wildings are very loyal to Jon. Eventually they will be ruling the wall while Jon recovers along with a few other loyal CROWS that love and respect Jon.

Master Ameon had a dragon dream when him, Gilly and Sam sailed off. He couldn't shake the feeling that he needed to tell Jon Snow that “ the cold preserves.” A fan asked GRRM about Jon's resurrection, and Martin said, “You think Jon is dead do you?” Maybe he was toying around, but everyone automatically assumed he DIED when there is absolutely NO EVIDENCE.

“He never felt the 4 knife only the cold” How do we even know there was a 4th knife or any other knives afterwards? Why was Jon’s hand clumsy when he tried to pull his sword out? Did they drug him? Why was Ghost acting hostile before the stabbings? Of course Ghost knew what was up. There is no telling who is involved in the attempt on Jon's life. Melsandra told him to watch the ones who smile in his face while they sharpen their daggers. I don't even rule Satin out, as Ive said many, many times.

On the show, Ollie was Satin in my opinion. They did not want to give it away. Back to Jon and Sansa and a few other things. First I want to say, Melsandra will definitely burn Shrinee thinking Stannis is actually dead. She will play absolutely NO PART in bringing Jon back from his “coma”. It's going to be Jon's wolf who saves him and release his soul back into his body, and Ghost will die, also sliding his shadow into Jon because Jon IS GHOST.

He will definitely be a beast and he will not be the same Jon as we know him. This is where Sansa Stark ( girl in grey) will come along and temper Jon just like she did the hound. They will eventually work together and fall in love and struggle with these feelings because keep in mind, Jon and Sansa does not know each other AT ALL. Yes, he will welcome her in open arms and be extremely protective of her, and yes they will fight while trying to get their home back or when they have to rebuild Winterfell together. (The blood of Winterfell)

Sansa Stark is destined to go North because she is the only one out of all the Stark children who has her wolf buried at Winterfell, and as Melsandra like to say: “the bones remember"

[atopvisenyashill]

You said that you don’t like Jonerys, but do you see it happening in the books? Do you see them actually falling in love?

there is nothing about their personalities that has ever lead me to believe they’d be capable of tolerating each other for more than 10 minutes before a slap fight started. nor do i think jon will be amenable to making any more alliances with targaryens after aegon vi dies, especially with the North in such peril due to the others. that + sansa’s distrust of The Great Game & the people who play it + arya spending half her storyline in a city that hated valyria & it’s legacy of slavery + bran telling br he can take his borg hivemind and shove it all leads me to believe that the starks are gonna be petty at best & actively hostile to the iron throne at worst by the time dany lands.

and by the time dany lands…we’ll have the burning in vaes dothrak, which is likely to be a huge moral turning point for her bc as george said, her being unburnt was a once in a lifetime magic event. she’s likely ordering drogon to burn the khals which is so much different - and more villainous! - than just lighting a torch & watching the place go up in flame. we’ll have “to go west you must go east” which is going to involve her sacking a city with the dothraki. we’ll have the battle of fire in meereen & a team up with a greyjoy which just spells disaster. then she lands in westeros with an army made up of dothraki screamers, unsullied slaves, and headed by jorah fucking mormont and a greyjoy. i’m not even sure when she has the time to meet jon let alone get dicked down by him!

(part of my “snowspear is real” trutherism is that i think dany in the show was given like half of aegon vi’s plot. considering arianne is going to meet them at storm’s end, which is a hop, skip, and jump away from dragonstone, it makes way more sense to me that the main targ the starklings would be dealing with is aegon. i also think that jon finding out he’s lyanna & rhaegar’s as he’s dealing with rhaegar’s trueborn son & has completely thrown his lot in with the north is gonna hit way more emotionally than jon finding out he fucked his aunt. george does a lot with romance, this is true, but the main relationships in this series? they’re siblings! they’re parents & children! cersei & robert are haunted by the ghost of lyanna but lyanna has always been a stand in for robert’s love for NED. cat & ned’s relationship is doomed before it even starts by LYANNA and JON, not by a former lover! all three lannister kids wonder how their lives would have turned out if their mother had lived!! it’s about ~these ties that bind us~ it’s about the human heart in conflict with itself! i just don’t see how you pass up two unknown half brothers meeting & clashing & then finding out they’re related in favor of…a very predictable, very boring romance between your fire & ice coded mains).

tldr i still generally feel no bc i’ve never thought they’d get along very well, plus there’s no time, but i’m pretty ready to eat my words on that one and cringe my way through a sex scene between them.

[blackcat419]

Your post about Alicent, Sansa, and Elia - I would add Catelyn to this as well - and their fandom perception, etc. was very on point. I've noticed with the ASOIAF fandom, in general, is that there is a significant subset of fans (almost always women themselves) that will always stan/cape for the NLOG Power Fantasy Self-Insert and will put down the 'meek, submissive dutiful wife' types which they perceive are in opposition to their faves. There is a very misogynistic undercurrent in the fandom in regard to women that are deemed as 'only' being wives and mothers and nothing else. They are deemed boring, irrelevant, and not worthy/or exciting enough by the fandom. They are offered no empathy, or grace, and their victimization is often ignored or downplayed because they didn't 'fight back.'

There is also another element to this in how insanely male-centered these fangirls are. The reason why some of these self insert power fantasy characters, like Rhaenyra, Dany, Lyanna, etc. (the GRRM Girl Boss) are so revered is because they have been 'picked' by important men in the series. These fans will elevate a female character and deem her worthy as soon as an important male character is said to be in love with her. This is why they cannot stand Daemon very obviously cheating on Rhaenyra with Nettles because it implies Rhaenyra wasn't 'enough', same with Baela and Jace/Sara Snow, and why they look down on women like Elia, Alicent, etc. because they didn't 'satisfy' the targ men in their lives. Saying Elia is barely a character, but stanning Lyanna who is also essentially an NPC is laughable, but since Lyanna was called willful a few times, played with a sword, and Rhaegar risked it all for her she's considered stan-material. I'm unmoved and unimpressed, but fine whatever. Shiera Seastar, has two character traits, being hot and having two targ men in love with her. Yet the stanning her is not weird at all but being interested in the DLC is? I need these people to be serious.

Then there's someone like Rhaella, who should be revered in this fandom because she literally died giving birth to the last hope of the targ dynasty, but she is either ignored or clustered in with the characters the Girl Boss stans cannot understand people liking. You just know targ stans don't like Rhaella because she didn't girl boss her way out of her abusive marriage and instead was a 'passive victim' who 'did her duty.' Importantly, she was also not loved by or sexually satisfied her targ husband. And, canonically, Aerys lusted after other women, like Joanna Lannister, which degrades Rhaella even more in the eyes of these types of fans because once again she was 'beaten' by other women in terms of being desired by the men in her life.

You also see this mentality when Arya fans use Arya being Jon's favorite sister over Sansa as some like, own, against Sansa or whatever. Am I supposed to give a single fuck who Jon Snow, of all fucking characters, prefers or likes? Because I don't and Arya isn't 'better' for having more attention from an 'important' male POV character. It's so male-centered and pick me-ish, it's insane lmao.

Bottomline, a lot of these fans are profoundly misogynistic, hypocritical, male-centered, and honestly cannot consume media without projecting and self inserting into a power fantasy character. And they need other women to be downgraded by both the narrative and in the fandom to add 'spice' to stanning the self-inserts that they have deemed worthy.

Anon you hit the nail right on the head with this! These fans only like female characters that they see as desired by male character around them, usually Targs because we need that nazi eugenics metaphor.

A lot of these fans like to delude themselves by saying they like characters that are active and actually do stuff but they always fail to notice or care about what characters like Sansa, Elia, Catelyn, and Alicent do!

Fans hate on Catelyn because she’s active but in the wrong way to them. She gets shit done! Girl literally crossed the continent to warm her husband and find out who tried to kill her son! She caught off an assassin for her baby! But it’s not active in the way these fans want because she’s not bending over backwards to accommodate and baby Jon Snow.

Same with Sansa and Alicent, these two are very active in their own ways, they’re plotting, guiding, and influencing those around them but the second Alicent gets violent or Sansa has thoughts of regicide, they’re instantly bad characters who are being active the wrong way.

And Lyanna and Elia are both very passive characters. The most active thing Lyanna does is being the mystery knight and the most active thing Elia does is taking the lead role in caring for her babies by not letting wet nurses nurse them. After this they’re both background characters who suffer at the hands of the men around them.

Basically these people like to lie and say they want active characters but when the characters are active, it’s not in the right way. I saw someone say that they like active characters who succeed but no character is succeeding 100% of the time, they’re all failing!!

[kimwexlers-brownhair]

Hello Kim ! I love that you're a Sansa fan, I was wondering what your favourite Sansa quote is? And why do you think she is so hated compared to characters like Jon, Dany, Arya, etc ? Thank you xx

Thank you for asking about my favorite child! It's hard to narrow down a quote as my absolute favorite. I love it whenever she's sneaky about manipulating idiots like Joffrey without ever dropping her armor of courtesy. "He is a fool, you're so clever to see it! He'd make a much better fool than a knight" about Hollard, and "“They say my brother Robb always goes where the fighting is thickest. Though he's older than Your Grace, to be sure. A man grown” are perfect examples.

They're also examples of why so many fans dislike her. She's too subtle for them, and too nuanced (maybe the most nuanced character in the series?). The dislike started when she was framed in the very beginning as Arya's foil, when her motives were easy to read: marry the prince and live like in romantic stories of chivalry. Now we're all obviously supposed to be frustrated with her, as we would be if our little sister or daughter fell for such an obvious douchebag but had a head too full of fairy tales to listen to reason. That frustration doesn't mean we hate them; in fact, it's usually so frustrating because you love the little twits. Yet because Sansa was set up as a foil to Arya, the underdog tomboy to cheer for, most viewers projected those affectionate feelings onto her and Sansa was left as the antagonist.

In season 2, we get nonstop action, with Arya, Jon, and Dany slicing through folks and burning them....and Sansa just seems to sit there sad and mealy-mouthed in King's Landing? Weak!

So many fans were attracted to the pageantry and sensory overload Game of Thrones gave them, and to take the time to understand someone as quiet and diffident as Sansa appeared was just not going to happen.

Ultimately, Gillian Flynn said it best:  “I like strong women” is code for “I hate strong women.” People watched GoT and decided for a woman to be equal, she had to commit violence, just like how men assert their masculinity. This hurts both Sansa and Arya in the show, I think. Sansa, with her subtlety and traditionally feminine interests, combined with the self-centered streak she showed in season one because God Forbid a teenager be self-centered especially since Arya isn't, was deemed too weak and annoying. Arya is the badass little ninja, but in the books, her descent into her darkest impulses because of the hell she's been through is...Not Good. Not empowering. She's a child. Sansa is a child. But because the way Arya survives and loses much of herself is cool and masculine-coded in the show, it's okay to rally around her. With Sansa, it's weak.

Unfortunately, a lot of Sansa fans go too far in the other direction, which I think is important to note. I've said this in another post, I know, but I just gotta repeat a distinct memory from when the show was at its height. More people were getting into Sansa, and her popularity was rising. Someone dared post their artwork of Sansa in armor and holding a sword. The reaction was ridiculous. "You're missing the whole point of Sansa's character if you give her armor and a sword!" First of all, Sansa is the most adaptable character in the series. Much like Elizabeth I, she would absolutely do that to boost morale at the very least. Second of all, people love to put women in boxes; to quote Succession, a lot of fans can't "hold a whole woman in their head."

Sansa is an example of "safe" femininity; she'll always be good and sweet and pure, a nice escape from mean women like Cersei, butch Brienne, tomboy Arya. Suddenly all the women just become these traits and aren't allowed to grow past them or learn to love other things. Maybe Sansa does learn to pick up a sword willingly, and finds out it's...kinda fun! Empowering, even!

No, there's nothing wrong with loving to sew, sing, and dream of romance. However, there is harm in internalizing that as the only things women can and should do. There's just something so infantalizing about the treatment of Sansa by some fans: "Our little Sansa always behaves like a lady".

I love Sansa because she isn't always likable. She has a lot of internalized misogyny, and she takes it out on Arya. She's so self-centered in her desires that she tells Cersei about Ned. She's also a child who we can safely assume was more strongly discouraged not to end up like Arya than, say, Arya was. This is her arc. I hate that it happens because of trauma, but her growth stems from Ned's death because it shows that deep down, this child wants home and family more than pagaentry. But because she couldn't say it with a sword, fans missed this.

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

Young Griff: Not a King

So, theories about Young Griff, aka (F)Aegon VI, abound. After all, we as a fandom have had a lot of time to stew in our thoughts, and it can be fun engaging in conversations about said thoughts. However, these conditions lead misconceptions to run wild, especially about a character like YG and his future.

I've seen a lot of people talking about the Targaryen Restoration, the second conquerors, and the three heads of the dragon in the context of Dany, Jon, and YG. A lot of the time, at least from what I've seen, these people accept that YG is not the Son of Rhaegar and Elia. I, personally, agree with that, there is a lot of textual evidence pointing to that conclusion. BUT I don't agree with him being the third head of the dragon. Now there's a lot to be said about when he was introduced and his prevalence in the story, but I'm not going to focus on that. I'm going to talk about YG's character.

GRRM clearly has a lot of opinions about what makes a good leader: Dany, Jon, Arya, and Bran are all great examples of characters who embody these. Each of those four are of the key five, are similar to YG in some way, and are being set up for or are already in leadership roles. These things all make the differences between them and YG all the more striking. The four are all wise for their age, intelligent, compassionate, and are invested in the lives of their people. YG does not have any of these characteristics.

He wants to rule not for the good of the people or to help the oppressed but because he was taught it was his birthright. A very entitled reason he shares with characters like Stannis, Joffrey, and ACOK Theon, men who the audience isn't supposed to root for (this is excluding the "Stannis the Mannis" crowd, who are stupid). YG also is only interested in carrying on the status quo of Westeros, something GRRM repeatedly points out is BAD. The sexism, homophobia, racism, and feudalism are not things the audience should support. So why should we root for someone who is supporting these things and whose arc isn't setting up a radical change of heart?

Am I saying I hate YG? No, I think he's a tragic character who is a victim of the greed of the men around him. But, he is not going to be a good king and would not get along with Dany and Jon at all. Jon hated Joffrey when he came North, why would he like and support a boy who reminds Tyrion of the little shit? YG has no respect for Dany and even for women in general, that is not setting up a healthy working relationship. And YG is so obviously a subversion of the "exiled king" trope (not the only one), him being successfully crowned, even alongside Dany and Jon, is wayyy too easy, especially for GRRM.

All this to say: no, I don't think Young Griff is going to be king of Westeros precisely because he does not have any leadership or even personal qualities GRRM believes should be in a leader.

[lawonderlandwriter]

Why are there a lot of idiots on Instagram who think S8 was authentic especially with what it did to Dany? Why do they call her “tyrant and mad” when it was blatantly bad wretched writing? And why do they think it’s gonna happen in the books? One idiot says GRRM said she’s gonna die and that the books will have the same ending. He never said either of those things. These people aren’t the majority but there are quite a few of them and what they say is just so baffling and ridiculous

Hmm I’ve never really delved into the fandom on Instagram and only scratched the surface of it on Twitter. But I’m assuming they say the same dumb things there that they’ve said here.

No, you’re right, GRRM has never said Dany dies in the books or will go mad in the books. And everything he has said about her seems to point to the exact opposite.

His “tsk tsk” when someone commented on his blog that she was their most hated character and wanted her to die. Him saying Arya and Dany were his two second favorites behind Tyrion. Him saying the key five (which includes Dany) would make it through all of his books (not just to all to all the books but live through them). Him responding to another comment on his blog with a blatant “no” when someone theorized Dany would burn down the Water Gardens in Dorne.

Yes George has said Dany and the dragons are the Fire of Ice and Fire. Yes he has also said Dany and her Dothraki and her quest for the throne will be a “threat” to the realm. But George has also said that the war of the 5 kings - which includes the Starks - is a threat to the realm. And he’s said the BIGGEST threat of all to Westeros is the Army of the Dead. Dany isn’t the big bad. She’s not the final boss. And everything in the book points to her either giving up her quest for the throne to fight the dead or fighting them after she’s won the throne (which is what I think is more likely). The book series isn’t called “A Game of Thrones,” it’s called “A Song of Ice and Fire.” The final fight will be between the living and the dead. Not Sansa Stark against Dany.

These people read into the books from a perspective of finding evidence for their favorite theories. Not looking at the evidence provided and extrapolating from there. Which is not how you create and prove theories. It’s how you be a dumbass. They’re just posting hate because they have nothing better to do. Which is why I usually block them when I come across them.

[ashleyfanfic]

Jonerys prompt please

29) just because you can doesn’t mean you should.

+

49) I do not have an answer for you

I've gone over and over this one in my head and even written it out twice. I can only come up with angsty things. I don't like writing angst most of the time. Only with JW. So, let's see what we get.

Not betaed. We die like Eddie Munson.

Jonerys fic

*~*

Jon watched her at the feast, laughing with the Dothraki leader. Her hand rested on his forearm and he turned away, hating the ache that sat in his chest. He did this to himself, caused his own bloody heart break, all because of a secret that was better left buried.

He felt a hand slap on his shoulder and a horn of something pressed into his hand. He looked up at Tormund who had probably had more to drink than the entire country. "What's got you looking so fucking sad, Little Crow? We stand in a feast of victory."

He shook his head. "Nothing. You know me. Not known for smilin'."

"True. You're a sour fucker. But not since that queen came around and started fucking you regularly. What's the matter? She stop?"

He heaved a sigh. "I stopped."

Tormund stared at him for a moment then stood and swiped a hand over his tangled hair. "You mean she's available?" Jon yanked on his heavy furs and the man laughed and resumed his seat beside him. "She's not available."

"You just said..."

"I know what I said."

Tormund sighed. "What's the problem. You're both young, beautiful, unmarried rulers. Isn't that the usual thing your lot does? Unite your kingdoms and all that?"

"Usually."

"I fail to see the problem."

Jon was quiet, knowing if there was one person he could tell that wouldn't bat an eye at the revelation, it was probably Tormund. "An unexpected problem has presented itself."

"She is married?"

"No."

"She tried to kill you?"

"No," he answered as he rubbed a hand over his face.

"Then tell me, Jon Snow, why you're being so fucking stupid."

Jon leaned closer to him. "I found out that she's my aunt."

Tormund looked at Dany and then back at Jon. "And?"

"And... we're related."

"Did you know that when you started fucking her?"

"No. I didn't find out until a few days ago."

Tormund nodded. "I see. For a man who died and was brought back to life, you really take the long way around to get somewhere."

Jon drank down his own drink and grimaced in Tormund's face. "What does that mean?"

"Do you love her?"

"Yes," he answered without question.

"Do you want to lay with her?"

"Yes, but--"

Tormund cut him off with a raised hand. "Can you live with the idea that she might someday marry someone that isn't you? That might not love her, but only use her for her title?"

"No."

"What about you? Your people would require you to marry a woman eventually. Produce an heir." Jon shook his head. "Let me give you a piece of advice, Jon Snow. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should put distance between the two of you. A woman like her... I don't know that there's actually been a woman like her through out all of history and time. And she loves you, you stupid fucker."

Jon looked up to find Dany staring at him, and she raised her glass to him. He raised his back and bowed his head. "It's only a matter of time before the lords start circling around her, each one wanting to use her for something. Her dragons, her arms, her title. None of them seeing her the way you do. Loving her the way you do. What you feel for her is very rare and you should relish it. So many of us are unfortunate that we never find it or we do and lose it. So she's your... family. From what I've heard from Arya, that's sort of what Targaryens do, isn't it?"

He took Tormund's drink from him and finished all of it. "You're right."

"I know. So get up and go claim your queen."

Jon stood on wobbly legs and grimaced at the taste in his mouth. He held his goblet up for a boy passing with wine, had it filled, and drank all of it in one swallow. He stumbled around his chair but righted himself and took slow steps towards her. She dismissed those standing near her and soon they were standing alone.

"How drunk is Tormund?"

He glanced back at his ginger friend who was now in a drinking game with Tyrion. "I don't have an answer for you," he replied and turned back to her. Her smile was bright, even if it didn't reach her eyes. "Dany, I want--"

"I plan to have my armies march south starting tomorrow morning," she interrupted. "It's in everyone's best interest, I feel, if my people and I are no longer in your country."

"So soon?"

"There are people who aren't happy about our presence, and to be honest, I don't like it here."

He sat on the table in front of her and cautiously took her hand. "There's still things you haven't seen."

She nodded. "I agree. Many things you promised to show me. But I'll not pressure you, Jon Snow. I've loved and lost and lived through it. I'm fairly certain I could do it again, if I must."

"What if you didn't have to?" he said softly.

She shook her head, confusion marrying her pretty face. "I don't understand you. You've avoided me for days and when you finally do acknowledge my presence you shake everything I've ever known to its very core. And now, I'm supposed to be happy that you've made up your mind?"

He stood. "Come with me."

She sighed. "Jon, I'm tired. I'm tired of games played with leaders and I'm tired of getting my expectations up only to then be disappointed."

He squeezed her hand and pressed a kiss to her palm. "Come with me," he prodded.

She reluctantly allowed him to lead her out of the room and through the lit corridors out to the courtyard. He pushed open the gates and they trudged through the sloshy snow together toward the heart tree. She looked up at the tree that appeared to be crying, along the white bark and up to the red leaves.

"The Night King died here," he said softly. "Bran was just here," he said, facing her, "and Arya came in from this end. She had made it past all of his guard and actually got the drop on him, from what Bran said."

She folded her hands in front of her and stared at him. He could feel her eyes on his skin as well as the eyes of countless others, always watching. "I've heard all of this, Jon. We were briefed this very morning, in fact."

He took a deep breath and lowered his head. "I never expected to survive the fight. I thought my destiny was to kill the Night King and that was the reason I was here. Once my purpose was finished, that would be it. I'd go back to wherever Melisandre pulled me from. To be very honest, Your Grace, Dany, I never allowed myself to look past that."

Dany's frown deepened. "So, am I to understand that you fully believed you'd die and yet you never thought to share this information with me, the person you claim to love who very clearly loves you?"

Jon shifted his weight to his other foot and lowered his head. "Yes. And now, I can only ask your forgiveness for my foolishness."

"What foolishness is that? That we became involved or that you're ending the involvement now that the world is no longer in peril."

"Neither," he answered quickly. "Dany, I never said I wanted to die. I only said that's what I thought would happen. It kept me from hoping beyond the battle for anything more."

She walked past him to the tree and he watched her placed her gloved hand over the bark and look up at the leaves. "Jon Snow, you're the most insufferable man," she said with a shake of her head. She then turned her frustration on him. "What is this? Why bring me out here? Are you telling me that you'd like to explore other options now that you're alive? That you want to stay in this Gods forsaken wasteland for the rest of your life with your sister, excuse me, cousin, constantly doubting every decision you make?" He shook his head and she stepped forward. "I've never taken you for a coward."

His jaw clenched and his hands tightened into fists at his side. But she continued as if he hadn't had any reaction to her words. "You came into my throne room and demanded my help. You defiantly refused to bend the knee. You dared to pet a dragon when neither of us knew what would happen." She huffed out a breath. "You took my hand and offered me your heart. You openly declared your allegiance to me when it would have been far easier to lie. You knocked on my door, Jon Snow. You rode a dragon into battle. But in front of me, faced with the possibility of a beautiful future together, you're cowering away?"

"I'm not cowering away."

"You could have fooled me. I ask you again. What do you want?"

"You," he said softly and her shoulders slumped. "I'm torn up about it, Dany. Bran and Sam telling me all they have... I still want you. I can't think about you with someone else because it makes me want to destroy the world," he said as he cupped her face in his hands. "I don't give a damn about the Iron Throne, but I'll fight until my dying breath to see you upon it."

She grasped his wrists and shook her head. "You have to live, Jon. You have to." She whispered gently against his lips. "You're the one who told me that the witch wasn't a good source for information. You were right," she guided his hand down to her belly and he looked up at her in surprise. "I had gone to the crypts to find you and tell you. But I found you so lost and sad that I didn't get the chance. And then the dead were here. But we've both lived and I believe we're both here to bring peace to this world. Both of us together. And our children after us."

He kissed her, his lips pressed against hers desperately. His arms looped around her waist and he lifted her to swing her in a circle. "You're magic, Dany."

She laughed and swatted at him. "Put me down before you make me sick." He placed her back on her feet and kissed her again. "Stay with me tonight," he whispered to her. "Let me... celebrate you."

Dany brushed her finger over the cut on his cheek. "I suppose I can allow that. I'll count it as your apology for being stupid."

He laughed and caught her around the waist. "No. Don't. Let my apology be separate."

She furrowed her brow. "Why?"

"Any reason to get on my knees for my queen."

"What if I told you that you didn't need a reason? I'd accept anytime you'd like to kneel for me."

He smiled and kissed her again. "Then I shall start in my chambers, Your Grace. Tonight. If you'll have me."

She wrapped her arms around his neck and buried her face against his chest. "I'll have you, Jon Snow. Until the end of my days."

[la-pheacienne]

I love LOVE your rhaelya thoughts. rhaelya hunts the narrative and the characters, more in daenerys, arya and jon. but jon, oh, jon :(. bby boy thinks that his mother did not love him, but lyanna's last words and thoughs were for him "promise me ned, promise me" probably to protect him forever but couldn't, and that is why ned feels like he failed. and rhaegar, while he is most and foremost paralleled to dany, jon has number of things from him. the truth of the parentage is gonna be a conflict from him, but i truly believe that he will love having a mother that loved him and that his parents loved each other. jon has been dreaming of it for years.

Thank you nonnie!! 💖

Well yes Jon breaks my heart in that situation. And when he finds out who his parents, he will probably believe he is a child born out of rape because that's what all Northerners believe apart from Ned who is dead. It will take a while I think before he finds out who his father really was.

And yes, Rhaegar has been paralleled to Dany mainly that's one of the reasons people hate him so much but there are a lot of parallels with Jon too. That's an interesting question because I've always seen and loved Jon particularly because of how pure of a Stark he was. The brooding, ill-tempered, solemn and grim personality is very characteristic of the North, and of Ned. Jon is a great swordsman like Ned, he is honourable like Ned and he has the Northern looks, dark hair and grey eyes. In all sorts and purposes he's a true Stark. BUT, I can't help but feel that the comparison between Rob's and Jon's looks was kind of weird:

"Jon was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike. Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast."

So slender, dark, graceful and quick. Now the graceful part is weird. Northerners are not really that graceful, let's say that's not their trademark. Of course you can say Lyanna was probably graceful, but was she really? She was basically a tomboy like Arya, she was very pretty but I don't know if "graceful" would be the first word one would use to describe her. In Westeros, which House is particularly defined by gracefulness? Well, you guessed it. Especially Rhaegar was said to be very graceful and slender ("long fingers" etc etc the whole Targ software). So yeah we have that. Also personality wise, well, Jon has a trait that was very characteristic of Rhaegar specifically, the guy knows how to create a strong impression on people. Jon befriends Tyrion on the spot, he is very influential in the Knight's watch, he became Lord Commander at such a young age, women love him etc. Rhaegar was loved by smallfolk, Cersei was completely enamoured with him, Barristan remembers him fondly still, Jorah calls him the last dragon, he haunts Jaimie's dreams, he left a big impact on people. But then again, Lyanna did too, so I guess he got it from both his parents. Also the way Rhaegar was born in grief parallels Jon's very tragic birth and the shadow that was cast on him for his whole life for being a bastard. That's also very specific.

So the "promise me Ned" line confuses me a lot. For a long time I believed that Lyanna just asked Ned to burry her in Winterfell because the first time the phrase is mentioned in the book the context is clear.

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black".

The main problems with this is 1) why was Lyanna afraid for a simple wish as to be buried at her home and 2) why does that line keep haunting Ned throughout AGOT? He recalls that line so many times at seemingly irrelevant situations and it's weird because Lyanna apparently got her death wish. Why would GRRM insist so much on that particular line if it was something that was already settled forever? Sansa reminds him of that, he sees that in his nightmares, then Robert himself reminds him of that line when he says the exact same words before he dies. And what did Robert want Ned to promise? Well, that he will have a specific funeral feast for him, and that he will try to protect Daenerys' life. Lol.

We don't know what this line means, but it probably refers to Jon. We'll never know for sure because we ain't getting the books 😂

[fromtheseventhhell]

so i'm what sansa fans would consider "feminine" or whatever they wanna call it. i have similar interests to sansa, i didn't like to get too mucky as a kid, i like dresses and pretty stuff, was scared by lots, and i loved romance and children. one of my main life goals is to get married, be a stay-at-home mum to my kids and have a family in a nice cute place. i know for a fact that almost no arya or dany fans would judge me for this.

i actually like sansa and i'm invested in her storylines, but i hate how fans ignore her faults and flaws. without them, i wouldn't be too interested in her.

sansa stans say people who criticise sansa are misogynistic and just hate a 'girly girl' is just wrong. i am and was a 'girly girl' (i don't really like those words because to me it's just perpetuating gender roles but i digress) and i still criticise sansa because she's so cruel about arya, not just in the first book but even when she's believed to be dead, says jeyne is 'such a child' when she's distraught after seeing northmen die and is therefore worried for her father because she's not an idiot, judges smallfolk constantly and is extemely classist, and doesn't mind at all having an extravagant feast when she knows full well that people in the vale are starving and all the lemons have been used just for her cake.

so from a fellow "feminine" woman, THAT'S why i am critical of her, not because i for some reason hate "feminine" girls.

They just don't want anybody to criticize her at all, so they came up with the "criticizing her is misogyny" tactic. They need her to be perfect and pure because that's the basis of their idea that she's better than other characters and will be rewarded for it. Of course, there will be people who dislike her for being a female character. It's an issue in fandom but it happens to every female character, not specifically Sansa. A majority of the criticism and "hate" she gets is people just talking about how she's written in the books. But then her fans don't like to acknowledge she was a bully, that she is classist, that she doesn't care about the smallfolk, that she was written with the purpose of causing conflict, etc. It's a silly way to engage with a character because, like you said, their flaws are what make them interesting. A fictional character without flaws is a poorly written one. If she doesn't have anything to grow from then there's nothing interesting about where her arc is taking her. Her learning arc is honestly more interesting, to me, because her own short-sightedness gets in the way. Her personal bias influences the choices she makes and the way she thinks about things and that's not going to change in the future 🤷🏾‍♀️

[jonsnowunemploymentera]

Fandom For Dummies: A totally objective and 100% correct ranking of the different ASOIAF fan communities

Nobody asked for it, but here’s my unwanted ranking of the largest ASOIAF communities on the internet:

7. X (the website formally known as twitter)

This is a cesspool; easily has the worst takes imaginable and it doesn’t help that’s it’s mostly like two fandoms at the forefront of this. Show watchers blend into book readers and this causes so many bad takes on every character. People talk big mad about characters, until you realize that they have never read a single chapter for said character and are basically just spewing whatever nonsense oomf told them to. Fights are petty and uninteresting, not to mention just how unhinged HOTD twitter stans are. Back in my day things weren’t this bad. But the last few seasons of GOT made everything 1000x worse.

6. Tiktok

I went back and forth with this one but I think it should be near the bottom. Tiktok is basically just twitter lite. People are not as unhinged on tiktok as they are on twitter, but they still bring their nonsense stan wars which means that it’s super rare to find good asoiaf content because everything is basically wrapped up around “how do I make my fave look good by making everyone else look bad?” People who have never read the books also never hesitate to give their bad takes. Tiktok is also notorious for straight up stealing stuff from Reddit and tumblr, and then wrapping it all up with the stan twitter logic - which is a proven recipe for disaster. Don’t expect to find particularly gripping analysis on tiktok that you haven’t seen anywhere else. Shoutout to that one account that posts lore videos though - they’re single-handedly hard carrying that godforsaken app.

5. Quora

It might be an unpopular opinion to rank this anywhere other than last, but I put it above twitter and tiktok because you can actually find good analysis here and there. However, Quora is also a massive echo chamber that enables the worst circle jerks imaginable (we’re all familiar with that famous poster who acts like Dany literally murdered their entire family, aren’t we?). Quora was shockingly bad way back when I joined this fandom and nearly a decade later, it’s still terrible. But this ain’t special to the asoiaf community. Quora as a platform is intensely toxic. For being a cesspit of hate, it gets a near bottom ranking but still manages to rank above twitter for actually sticking to book content every now and then. Also, there’s usually not a whole lot of shipping wars which is a major plus!

4. Reddit

I’ve also gone back and forth with this one because it could rank higher or lower depending on the time of day. But it’s been a hot minute since passable content came out of Reddit, which explains why it isn’t any higher than fourth. This is a site that is capable of great good, and also great evil. Some cool theories have come out of it (e.g., the Night Lamp theory), but the downside is that this happens once in every five blue moons. Most of the time, Reddit is one giant circle jerk of whatever is the opinion of the day. Think Tyrion is the devil incarnate? Well you’re in luck, because so does literally everyone else. The makings of Reddit’s core demographic also means that female characters are more likely than not to get lambasted for every little thing (e.g., Cersei getting victim blamed for the abuse she suffers). Sure you could find good analysis, but it will be right alongside the most shockingly bad take on any given character that you’ve ever seen (just ask any Arya stan). A majority of redditors also employ the most surface level analysis of any character which lends to the bad takes, but this isn’t anything new considering that tiktok and twitter do the same thing but worse. Major plus though, little to no shipping! Which means that we get to avoid fighting about which teenage girl gets to shag Jon Snow. For having elements of both the good and the bad, Reddit is firmly middle of the pack. But shoutout to r/darkwingsdankmemes for single-handedly hard carrying the asoiaf Reddit communities. Y’all are doing the lord’s work (though it’s not like the bar is that hard to clear to begin with).

🥉 YouTube

Ok, woah YouTube in the top three?! Yes, hear me out. YouTube is really good at presenting out new theories, especially pertaining to the magic side which often gets overlooked everywhere else. In fact, I’d argue that it’s the second best place to get any sort of discussion on the magic side of asoiaf without falling into some bizarre stan war echo chamber. YouTube also doesn’t have the shipping wars that you find everywhere else, which makes the fan experience a lot more fun. Now a major downside is that a lot of analysis on there is either borderline crack on wheels or the most surface level reading imaginable. Some creators also push a lot of hate towards certain characters (we all know who they are). But still, it’s not the cesspit that Reddit is and you’ll be able to find interesting stuff everyday. It’s like tiktok, if people actually tried to think for themselves and analyze the books outside of an echo chamber. When you learn to filter out the bad faith arguments, YouTube has great content, especially if you’re a new fan and are trying to learn about the lore or get some explanation on popular fan theories. Shoutout to AltShiftX (for when they stick to presenting out basic lore), CivilizationEx, Radio Westeros (though they started out on westeros.org), and many more for the work that they do. Tiktok wishes they were you!

🥈 Tumblr

Tumblr is a GREAT place for fandom engagement! Ok let’s start with the bad: shipping culture. This has almost completely ruined the fan experience. Especially for ships that are not yet even cannon (yeah don’t all gasp at once). Either you think Sansa (a 13 yr old girl!!) is the devil incarnate or you think Dany (a 16 yr old!!) needs to be strung up by her toes. Every now and then, poor Arya will catch some strays. This also means that you’ll find a lot of bad faith “analysis” for the anti-ship characters. And to make things worse, Jon is in the middle of this and so every group is guilty of either misconstruing or vastly misinterpreting his character to further whatever their agenda is. Now onto the good. For all the flak tumblr gets, it’s given us some of the best character analysis you could find in greater asoiaf fandom. There are so many incredible asoiaf blogs and even the shippers post great content. There also a variety of good stuff which allows you to curate your fan experience. You’re a Theon stan? Great! There are a bunch of wonderful Theon posters on here. A Stannis stan? Fear not, you’re in good company! There’s something for everyone and you can stay in your own cute little stan bubble, which can’t be said for the other communities. Tumblr also has great artists and gif makers too, which you won’t find anywhere else (well, maybe the editors on tiktok). Something that keeps tumblr in the higher ranks is that there’s something new everyday. This site, for all its faults, has managed to stay active and keep things fresh after all these years. But the shipping wars man…that’s what’s stopping us from being the best. Let’s #MAKETUMBLRGREATAGAIN2024!

And the best ASOIAF fan community is 🥁 🥁…..

🥇 Westeros.org

Yes, Westeros.org is still the best asoiaf fan forum after nearly two decades. To this day, the best asoiaf analyses have come from this forum. The reread projects, in particular, are top of the class: The pawn to player threads which single handedly changed how we discuss Sansa Stark (+ the same people did the Arya reread projects); the learning to lead reread project which was a cool joint project by Jon and Dany fans; the Jon and Tyrion reread threads, the best of them all, which were spearheaded by the forum’s top posters; the moments of foreshadowing threads; the ‘can’t believe I missed that’ threads, the heresy threads for off the wall magic theorizing; the over 150 RLJ threads…the list goes on and on. Westeros.org has been the backbone of asoiaf fan discussion for years and years. Also, some of the funniest posts ever made (e.g., the ‘Sandor and Gregor Clegane are brothers’ theory) have come from that site. Does this forum have its faults? Absolutely. Just as all the others do. I’ve been around long enough to see the tides turn on which female character needs to be hurled right down to hell. Way back then it was Sansa and Catelyn, then came the huge anti-Dany circlejerk (which is still there tbh), and now it’s Arya who’s satan incarnate. Another ding against this forum is that is has not managed to keep it relevance after all these years; Tumblr has been much better on that front. Westeros.org lost its best contributors as the show overtook the books and is now a husk of what it once was. BUT, you’ll still find good discussion from the ten people who still log on everyday. This site actually focuses on book content, as there’s a dedicated book only forum. It’s also the best place to find extensive discussion on the different magical elements in ASOIAF. So instead of arguing about who is or isn’t Azor Ahai, which is frankly so 2014, posters on Westeros.org will actually spearhead some pretty out there analysis on the different magical elements. They’re not afraid to go against the grain, which is how we got the heresy threads - an entire subforum that encourages readers to think outside the box, which you won’t always see on tumblr or other sites. Westeros.org is not what it used to be but once Winds is out, I’m sure it will be returned to its former glory.

Didn’t include other sites like Tower of the Hand (which was pretty decent back in the day), Winteriscoming.net, and many others because they’re just not as big. Anyway, I’m 100% correct. GRRM himself told me so 😤

[buttercuparry]

I wonder if those who outrage against "masculinized" female characters ever stop to consider that the more our society is progressing, we are moving further away from the concept of gender roles. And that what you are into and what you do is actually a personal quirk and not something that classifies you.

I mean the manliest heterosexual cis man to have ever manned can find embroidery soothing. Like his love language can be gifting his friends pretty embroidered things. It is not a question of his capacity to be "feminine"...it is a question of talent and passion.

I think when fandom characterizes Arya as this masculine coded violent girl- they just can't fathom that a young girl can ever have any other interests than those who came before her. But if it is all about aesthetics, how come Arya cooing over babies, her collecting flowers, her scrubbing floors, prepping meals etc are not considered part of it?

Here is the thing though, gushing over babies is not something that's limited to the female. Samwell ( I know I use him as an example a lot) sang lullabies to his baby brother. He loved this particular nightly ritual till his father thought it "soft" and put an end to it. Soothing babies is not being soft, it's providing them with the emotional care they need. And the only reason it seemed freakish to Randyll Tarly is because this care was being provided by his son. And that's bullshit.

I also think the matter of this supposed criticism resides in part with stereotypes of sexuality. I mean the most tradfem of the characters is headcanoned to have one hundred and one children. While a mother who lost her son in womb is deemed to forever remain infertile. Like I know Dany was cursed by Mirri Maz Duur but this is a fantasy series! Anything can happen. And even if one claims this to be a personal view on the text, linking infertility to her supposed madness is not it.

I feel like there was this checklist going on where they have stuff like: do male characters lust after these women, do these characters dress up prettily, are they attracted to men- if so then they are the definition of feminine. When unfortunately Dany passed all of these ( even the one with many gross male characters almost wanting to prey on her)- they went with the infertility- madness thing.

They can't do this with Brienne because I think Grrm has made it impossible to do so with her. She actively tried to participate in the role subscribed to her but was made fun of by those around her. So she took to knighthood. It has been abundantly made clear that she loved Renly and there is this weird push and pull between her and Jaime. And it's weird how much the scale of femininity lies not with the characters, but in the kind of association this character has with a man. And Jaime is one of the most "desireable" man of Asoiaf. Brienne not being in the way of the one who they think is embodiment of the feminine helps too I guess.

I think this is what stumps them about Arya. It doesn't matter how much she says: the woman is important too. How much she whines when people call her a boy. To them it is all about aesthetics. They go: is she wearing pretty dresses? And they answer is: her dresses are muddy because she runs around in it just as a child would do. They go: okay does she like wearing them- the answer is she never complained before. Only perhaps during her whole riverland arc because she thinks it is impractical. And to them these immediately translate into- but! But!! Sansa was said to be a lady at three. She never thought to go against that which was prescribed to her!! Demureness and subservience is what is feminine!! And also dresses, songs, dancing, embroidery are absolutely hated by Arya because these represent traditional femininity and she has internalized misogyny so she would rather fence and horse ride and wear pants as they symbolize her affinity to the masculine.

They are so so obsessed with a particular kind of beauty and if it is all soft and demure. And of course how it appeals to the male gaze ( all those edits about how beautifully sansa suffers) . Arya is targeted because she in the text is set up against someone who can be whitewashed into their idea of the feminine. Which is why there is this repeated conjecture and criticism of fancasts because how can Arya look like that ? She is afterall called horsefaced (doesn't matter if it's done by bullies) and there is nothing feminine about her ( she is too rebellious)!

This again brings in the case of Lyanna. Right now the fandom is fawning over Elia but there was a time when the most common theory was Arya inherited Lyanna's willfulness while Sansa has her aunt's beauty and femininity. Even now in bits and pieces I get to see this take because how can someone fight over one who looks like Arya.

And what does Arya look like? A pre-pubescent child. Because she is one. And with all the trying to stay alive while disguised as a boy: yeah I think personal grooming wasn't the first thing that was on her mind back then. But all these somehow reinforces her masculinity. Her having no option and turning up to the HoBaW and having to play by their rules somehow does the same. And I think last of all this is what forms the crux of it.

Arya's storyline is her own. She hasn't yet been to a place where her themes can get intertwined with a male character. Up until now her story provides a commentary that is purely her own, independent of any man. And I say this because I know how GoT was written, I see what is happening with Rhaenyra and Alicent in HoTD. I feel like in asoiaf fandom the trend is that themes discussed about women characters often end up being more about their male ship partners. Or they are completely removed from any significant action- and moved as passive pieces across the storyboard in a way that would best glorify or vilify a man.

So here is a female character who is on a journey that is solely her own. It cannot be twisted into anything relating to any man. And I think this at a subconscious level feels peculiar to them. Which is why show!Arya got butchered because to D&d Arya's rebellion got translated into " I want to be one of the boys".

And I think this is why there is also this urge to headcanon her as someone who won't be interested in romance. They don't see her admiring Gendry when he is working, the sensuality of her interaction with Jaqen in the bath house ( i know it's creepy. Grrm at times makes me want to side eye him), that Jon literally compares Ygritte to Arya. Romance to them looks unnatural on anyone who is not playing by "norms".

[esther-dot]

I know some people are seeing jonsa in Kit's speech about his "Freudian complex" and what he seeks in a partner (which honestly same LOL 🤡🤡). But at the same time, and knowing that he did enjoy the Ygritte-Jon relationship, it seems curious to me that he's associating Dany and Ygritte with Cat who, as he said, "hated him". I don't know if I make sense?? Lol

That Freudian comment really did make me 👀

I transcribed what he said for context.

In response to a question about Jon finding room in his heart for love again:

"Uh, yea--I hope so. I hope there will be. The funny think about--I said this earlier as well. In thinking about Jon and his choice of women which is (audience laughter). I think he's like...his maternal, the only maternal figure he had was Catelyn who hated him. Treated him like--I swear a lot. I'm sorry--who treated him like crap, alright? And he tends to go for really dominant women. It's quite interesting isn't it? He goes for the really d-- (stops himself). And I think that there's some Freudian thing going on there. Um, with that in mind I think he would go for a s-- (stops himself). I think especially the Ygritte thing burned him so much that he has definite PTSD and truma about being in a relationship, so I think it would be tough. Yeah."

(from this video that @starwarsprincess1986 posted)

I find it a really odd statement considering what he’s said in the past. I can interpret it in a few ways. It could just mean he’s attracted to women who have some authority over him. But he did include hate and mistreatment in his thoughts about Cat and pairing and connecting that vie the Freudian reference to Ygritte and Dany…well, it is kinda an understandable assertion given how s7-8 went. Kit didn’t have a say in what was written but had to perform it, so where D&D may have chosen a path for commercial reasons, without it actually making sense character-wise, Kit tried to create a believable emotional interpretation. As in, Dany treated Jon pretty badly (by taking him prisoner), and he inexplicably fell in love with her. Dany treated him worse in s8 and he inexplicably remained loyal. If that’s the story given to Kit, he might think, well shit, Ygritte also took Jon prisoner, Ygritte demanded his loyalty (as did Dany), Ygritte threatened him (as did Dany), Ygritte felt betrayed by him (as did Dany), and Ygritte shot him (Tyrion and Arya tell him Dany is gonna kill him), so, he might think Jon is choosing women who have some power in the dynamic/he can’t escape (like Cat), who he admires in some way/wants something from (maternal love from Cat, info from Ygritte, dragons /armies from Dany), and then think that he gives into these women because where Cat firmly rejected him, Ygritte and Dany did soften and express interest. It’s possible he saw the power imbalance in Jon/Dany and Jon/Ygritte, the emotional abuse, and thinks it’s a pattern in which Jon was conditioned to want love from a woman he feared. I really like Cat so this is all making me very uncomfy 😬

Like you, that doesn’t fit with how I’ve heard him speak of Ygritte, but I was really caught off guard by the fact that he mentioned not only Cat’s hate but that she treated him like crap which, why is that on his mind when describing Jon’s romantic relationships? If he saw show Ygritte that way, it would shock me? But in a different part, he’s talking about how kind/good his wife is and how odd it was to have her switch from being his sweet gf to acting Ygritte…who (I think he said) would chew his face off in a scene 😂 It did seem to indicate he didn’t consider all the J/Y banter totally harmless/cute. Maybe years later he sees it as somewhat toxic? Maybe he’s been reading the books to prep for the sequel and that’s influencing him? 🤔

I don't know if he made any or all those connections, it may have been a very broad, Cat was strong-willed and Ygritte and Dany are too, meaning. The comments about Cat’s feelings and behavior could have been a little detour, but he did mention the trauma and PTSD from his time with Ygritte as well. That could have been strictly about how both Ygritte and Dany died in his arms and how Jon feels responsible for that (Kit mentioned something like that post s8), but the fact that he feels that way about Cat and brought her into the convo…it felt like an indicator that he knows the relationships were a little fucked up.

I know I always thought that craving the approval and love of Cat had kinda transferred to Sansa and that her acceptance of Jon as a Stark (telling him he was a Stark to her, offering him the Lord’s chambers, dressing him like Ned…) was probably the most healing experience of his life. Not only because she looked like Cat, but because at the time, she was the only surviving Stark, and she had never been close to him so it wasn’t a continuation from childhood, but totally unexpected acceptance. That all became messy, but it still seems more clearly delineated in the show (they even mention Sansa sitting in Cat’s seat once) then his interactions with Ygritte or Dany. I’m not sure what to think, anon, but I agree, it was a really interesting quote! I’ll try to watch the rest of the video sometime and see if there’s anything else to add context to it.

[atopvisenyashill]

Re your Bran ask. The amount of Key Five stans that think GRRM's intention is to make those five the Heroes of the Series and it's gonna be some found family-esque MCU dramedy where they all come together to defeat the others and then go on to plan Jon and Dany's wedding before having some double coronation among the cheering masses and everyone in Westeros falls at the feet of the Targ Regime is honestly fucking hilarious and baffling. This goes hand in hand with the Dany-Jon-Tyrion three heads of the dragon nonsense lmao.

They constantly praise GRRM for subverting tropes, but think he's going to play the Azor Ahai prophecy straight and think Dany and Jon will be unironic messianic figures/heroes. But for the other bitches and houses (especially Sansa or Aegon or Jaime, etc. who they hate) it's gonna be grimdark doom and gloom. Uhhh, yeah sure. Honestly these people should be happy these books never getting published because the meltdowns would be insane.

Imagine thinking GRRM isn't going to make these characters come into conflict with one another. It's not even about being an anti of any of these characters, it's about knowing basic storytelling narratives and what we've seen in the past five books, if you think there won't be angst, conflict, betrayals, etc. I genuinely don't know what to say.

the way this ask just got LOST in my inbox oh my god. anon if you're still around i'm so sorry lmao i do not know what happened.

but YES, i think i've used the word "naive" before as in, I think people are really banking on the sweet and not the bitter part of "bittersweet ending." I've seen people say that the later books are likely to be more "typical" or "straightforward" fantasy and it's like...why on earth would you think that? Everything he has said is pointing to continuing to do his shocking but well foreshadowed twists and turns and continuing to subvert tropes and expectations.

And yes, there's definitely like certain characters that the Key Five/Targ restoration/DJT Three Heads people will put all the "bitter" onand it's always so baffling and a lil telling that they just don't have the imagination to see a happier ending for Sansa, Bran, Brienne, Arianne, or Theon. I certainly have a tendency to dwell on the more "sweet" side of things for characters like Sansa, Arya, Brienne but a lot of that is because I'm just unsure of what the "bitter" aspect will be whereas I'm much more confident about the "bitter" aspect of characters like Dany, Bran, or Jon but I am fully confident that even with Sansa, Arya, and Brienne having some sort of power at the end, there will be a twinge of bitterness - I tend to go with "separated from their brothers" because that hits me right in heart but I'm sure George is gonna pull off something to make me insane and I will like it!! They will all have aspects of this one way or the other, not just a few characters! Sansa is not getting her head chopped off (WHY would this even happen. "Oh she committed treason" shut the hell your mouth she's not getting executed for Joffrey's death and she's not getting executed for *checks notes* giving a vague answer after she's pulled out of bed hungover and stressed out and asked to contradict the fucking crown prince can we be serious) because that's just objectively all bitter. Or that Aegon's death will be like, fine, no consequences, good even because he's just a pretender and nevermind that like, if the Blackfyre thing is true the kid's just been gaslit his entire life so how is any of this his fault?? It's why I waffle a lot on Dany's ending - I do think there will be something sweet for her there, if only for a moment, before her crown is taken from her but because that's so tied to politics, I'm a bit shaky on what it's going to be simply because the magical aspects make more sense to me.

I read fantasy not political thrillers or even a lot of historical fiction and I know I've bitched about all the "bran is annoying i hate magic" takes but at the same time that I find it annoying when the political fans will undersell the magic aspect or refuse to factor it into their theories, it's just as annoying when people insist that "the real enemy is the Others, politics is a distraction" it's not though! The political and the magical are intertwined and both of these aspects of the story will be subverted and played with in the end, it's not going to be a straightforward ending where Jon and Dany are both Azor Ahai and the Prince That Was Promised and this is indisputably a good thing and then they rule the seven kingdoms and it's all perfect. That is just not happening! We have it repeated over and over that magic and prophecy is tricky at best and untrustworthy at worst and Dany is spending all her time neck deep in prophecies and blood magic and yet this is somehow not going to have any affect on her psyche whatsoever and never mind that prophecy is what drove half her relatives crazy AND is actively driving Cersei, Stannis, and Melisandre insane. Arya has spent two full books in BRAAVOS of all places and yeah I DO in fact think that Arya living in the Free City known for rebelling against the Valyrians, serving the assassins guild that is heavily implied to have helped kick off the Doom of Valyria because of their hatred for slavery is in fact going to be relevant when she comes face to face with a Valyrian claimant who used blood magic and killed a slave in order to hatch her dragons.

Also cannot reiterate enough that George himself was deeply annoyed about the original outline getting leaked because his story has diverged massively from there and this "key five" thing is NOT APPLICABLE TO THIS STORY. It's no longer the story he's writing folks!!!