#sexism in asoiaf

[ariamariastark1]

Your daily reminder that Sansa Stark exists and is more than just ‘feminine’.

Sansa exists to represent the girls born and raised in extreme privilege that have been groomed by their mentors and family into being complicit in their own misery and to uphold their own oppression to themselves and others.

It was Sansa’s internalised prejudices that made her a bully against her own sister; it was Sansa’s obsession with appearances and fantasies that didn’t allow her to see Joffrey and Cersei’s real nature and it was Sansa’s shallowness and internalised sexism that made her ignore Margery’s red flags.

GRRM opens a great discussion through Sansa: the intersectionality between victim and oppressor, how woman can become both of them and how they are trained from birth to uphold the same status quo that hurts them.

[blackcat419]

Your post about Alicent, Sansa, and Elia - I would add Catelyn to this as well - and their fandom perception, etc. was very on point. I've noticed with the ASOIAF fandom, in general, is that there is a significant subset of fans (almost always women themselves) that will always stan/cape for the NLOG Power Fantasy Self-Insert and will put down the 'meek, submissive dutiful wife' types which they perceive are in opposition to their faves. There is a very misogynistic undercurrent in the fandom in regard to women that are deemed as 'only' being wives and mothers and nothing else. They are deemed boring, irrelevant, and not worthy/or exciting enough by the fandom. They are offered no empathy, or grace, and their victimization is often ignored or downplayed because they didn't 'fight back.'

There is also another element to this in how insanely male-centered these fangirls are. The reason why some of these self insert power fantasy characters, like Rhaenyra, Dany, Lyanna, etc. (the GRRM Girl Boss) are so revered is because they have been 'picked' by important men in the series. These fans will elevate a female character and deem her worthy as soon as an important male character is said to be in love with her. This is why they cannot stand Daemon very obviously cheating on Rhaenyra with Nettles because it implies Rhaenyra wasn't 'enough', same with Baela and Jace/Sara Snow, and why they look down on women like Elia, Alicent, etc. because they didn't 'satisfy' the targ men in their lives. Saying Elia is barely a character, but stanning Lyanna who is also essentially an NPC is laughable, but since Lyanna was called willful a few times, played with a sword, and Rhaegar risked it all for her she's considered stan-material. I'm unmoved and unimpressed, but fine whatever. Shiera Seastar, has two character traits, being hot and having two targ men in love with her. Yet the stanning her is not weird at all but being interested in the DLC is? I need these people to be serious.

Then there's someone like Rhaella, who should be revered in this fandom because she literally died giving birth to the last hope of the targ dynasty, but she is either ignored or clustered in with the characters the Girl Boss stans cannot understand people liking. You just know targ stans don't like Rhaella because she didn't girl boss her way out of her abusive marriage and instead was a 'passive victim' who 'did her duty.' Importantly, she was also not loved by or sexually satisfied her targ husband. And, canonically, Aerys lusted after other women, like Joanna Lannister, which degrades Rhaella even more in the eyes of these types of fans because once again she was 'beaten' by other women in terms of being desired by the men in her life.

You also see this mentality when Arya fans use Arya being Jon's favorite sister over Sansa as some like, own, against Sansa or whatever. Am I supposed to give a single fuck who Jon Snow, of all fucking characters, prefers or likes? Because I don't and Arya isn't 'better' for having more attention from an 'important' male POV character. It's so male-centered and pick me-ish, it's insane lmao.

Bottomline, a lot of these fans are profoundly misogynistic, hypocritical, male-centered, and honestly cannot consume media without projecting and self inserting into a power fantasy character. And they need other women to be downgraded by both the narrative and in the fandom to add 'spice' to stanning the self-inserts that they have deemed worthy.

Anon you hit the nail right on the head with this! These fans only like female characters that they see as desired by male character around them, usually Targs because we need that nazi eugenics metaphor.

A lot of these fans like to delude themselves by saying they like characters that are active and actually do stuff but they always fail to notice or care about what characters like Sansa, Elia, Catelyn, and Alicent do!

Fans hate on Catelyn because she’s active but in the wrong way to them. She gets shit done! Girl literally crossed the continent to warm her husband and find out who tried to kill her son! She caught off an assassin for her baby! But it’s not active in the way these fans want because she’s not bending over backwards to accommodate and baby Jon Snow.

Same with Sansa and Alicent, these two are very active in their own ways, they’re plotting, guiding, and influencing those around them but the second Alicent gets violent or Sansa has thoughts of regicide, they’re instantly bad characters who are being active the wrong way.

And Lyanna and Elia are both very passive characters. The most active thing Lyanna does is being the mystery knight and the most active thing Elia does is taking the lead role in caring for her babies by not letting wet nurses nurse them. After this they’re both background characters who suffer at the hands of the men around them.

Basically these people like to lie and say they want active characters but when the characters are active, it’s not in the right way. I saw someone say that they like active characters who succeed but no character is succeeding 100% of the time, they’re all failing!!

[wodania]

jaime and cersei sharing wardrobes

bonus under the cut

[the-witch-of-woods-beyond]

if you support team green, you’re a misogynist. it’s that fucking simple. you have literally no excuse - you support sexim and defend rapists and romanticise people who abuse children. hiding behind a show doesn’t excuse the fact that you hate women and yet you still lie to defend yourself, but the truth is plain simple: the dance would not have happened if rhaenyra were a man. team green thought they could steal the throne that was her birthright and she’d just lie there and take it and then got all surprised when she didn’t and tried to make her the villain for reclaiming what had always been hers. but then they all got killed stupidly - like they fucking deserve.

[drakaripykiros130ac]

TG stans claiming they’re not mysoginists, and then they post comments like this:

“Until women learn to pick up swords and fight their own wars, they do not get to rule.”

- Caveman mentality

This is an obvious shot directed at Rhaenyra, who is not a warrior. She had never been trained at arms (unlike her half-brothers), and she was never the type to wield a sword. She was the most feminine character in this Dance. As much as she admired Queen Visenya, she was not her.

And I’m sorry, since when do women have to fight in order to rule? You don’t need a sword. You need a brain. The sword is for the field.

The throne is an inheritance. You don’t have to fight for it. You just get it after your parent passes away. Many of Rhaenyra’s ancestors got it that way. Why should it be any different for her?

Lady Jeyne Arryn commanded the whole Vale and she never picked up a sword in her life. She was Lady of the Eyrie because it was her right. The men of the Vale did all the wielding for her.

And while we’re on the subject, let’s discuss the “brave” women on the side of the Greens:

1. Alicent Hightower: starts the whole war and hides behind her sons for the entirety of it. She never picks up a sword. She is the mastermind behind the usurpation and then lets her children and grandchildren suffer the consequences. And the only reason she survives is because Rhaenyra spares her life (I wouldn’t have).

2. Helaena: has a full-grown dragon and does nothing but weep in her rooms the whole war because she lost one child. Boo hoo. Rhaenyra had to suffer the loss of four children before she took the throne, and yet she was still on her feet.

So, let’s cut the crap on the whole “Rhaenyra didn’t fight” subject. You suffer a miscarriage and try to get on your feet to prepare for a war. This woman was in a lot of physical pain which prevented her from riding Syrax. And why was she in that pain? Because the Greens themselves caused her miscarriage.

And historically speaking, in our world, the best rulers have been women (who also never picked up a sword in their lives).

[whitedragonwolf4961]

The signs were there…

The signs were there all along… that the fucking hacks were ruining this beautiful, amazing, complex character long before the shit season. I know those dumb as shit incompetent hacks and some of the cast of GoT (do they actually believe that shit or were they toeing the line?) in their condescending manner told us that the “signs” were there all along about Dany “going mad”. They are right but not for the reasons they think they are. The signs were there… that D&D were ruining Dany’s character long before that putrid shitshow that was Season 8. When you reread the books and remember or rewatch the show, you can see. As early as S1, they were giving many of Dany’s strong or intelligent or kind and merciful moments to the males around her. It was her who took Viserys’s horse away from him to show how she has grown stronger and is no longer as afraid of him as she once was. In the show they gave it to Rhakaro. In S2 they had Jorah tell Dany she must be her people’s strength and then Dany told Jorah “as you are mine”. Contrast that where in the books Dany told herself she must be her people’s strength, including Jorah. And they gave Dany’s meeting with Quaithe to freaking Jorah! There is the fact that the hacks couldn’t have women talking for two minutes without insulting each other (directly or subtly). And then they gave her intelligent strategies to her male advisers in S3 and 4. And of course had her rely on the incompetence dumbass Show Tyrion for strategy completely in S7, ignoring the advice of her allies (who were all females). And to make her look worse, they had Barristan tell her “it’s better to answer injustice with mercy” when she had those masters crucified for what they did to the children (and of course add “nice and innocent slavers”). No surprise to find out that they omitted that Dany specifically ordered them to give up their leaders aka the ones who obviously ordered it, in the books. And how Dany is told by her advisers to be more violent and ruthless, instead of them “tempering her worst impulses” (I fucking hate that sexist fucking line). Dany is the one who wants to be as merciful and nonviolent as possible. A little off topic, I think Dany needs to become more ruthless. I think GRRM was trying to show that while it shows Dany’s good heart that she tried to be compromising, you cannot compromise with slavers. If she wants to utterly destroy slavery she will need to be more ruthless and that is not a bad thing at all.

Anyway, besides giving most of Dany’s best moments to the males around her, the fucking hacks were changing things when they still followed the books (for a given definition of “follow”) as well as adding ridiculous crap. It’s most blatant in her S2 storyline. The Thirteen immediately invite Dany into Qarth because they sought her out. But the hacks had Dany be condescendingly talked to by the show only Spice King and refused entry. So they could have her shout “We will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground”. I know a lot of dumb idiots will use that line as “proof” but it was a stupid addition by the two hacks so they could make Dany look bad. And then they had Dany’s Dothraki people slaughtered. They had Irri murdered. They took away Dany’s female companionship (until Missandei). And speaking of Irri, who killed her? Doreah! Yeah! They had Doreah out of literally nowhere with zero explanation or reason betray Dany and murder Irri (like I said, Dumb&Dumber can’t stand female friendships. They think women are only good for insulting and killing each other). Looks like the later seasons weren’t the start of them inventing stupid plot points out of nowhere. And I guess they wanted to make Dany look cruel for locking Doreah and Xaro in the vault. Know what she does to them in the books? Nothing. Well not exactly nothing. Doreah dies in the Red Waste and Dany holds her and gives her water from her own waterskin and refuses to move until Doreah has passed. And Xaro is still alive in the books. Because Xaro and Pree never stole her dragons in the books (another stupid show invention). And then later, as I previously mentioned, they invented “innocent slave masters” that Dany crucified like Hizdahr’s daddy. Nothing like that is brought up in the books. Oh, and they decided to kill off Ser Barristan in S5! Even though Barristan is alive and well and gladly serving Dany in the books and knowing she’s nothing like her father. Which the actor pointed out. And it only made those scumbags want to do it even more. And then after his (very stupid) death, Dany burns a slave master. And that stupid awful behind the scenes book after the shit season, Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon has that moron Cogman bring that up about how Dany didn’t care if he was innocent or not (they really had a thing about “innocent slave masters”). None of that crap ever happens in the books.

They also changed small but important parts. Never let Dany have a crown like I mentioned. They also had Dany sit on top of the stairs in Mereen, when she insists on sitting at the bottom on a simple bench because she wants to be on an equal level with her people. Heck an illustrator had to be corrected by GRRM when she was showing that (does anyone have a picture or article about that?). They also never really showed her bond with her other dragons. In the books she loves and pays attention to all of them, in particular Viserion who always wants to be petted by her. In the show, she only really pays attention to Drogon mostly. Rhaegal and Viserion were reduced to “the two smaller different colored dragons” (to be stupidly killed off later on in stupid asinine ways). And Dany’s relationship with Daario is changed. Daario is made to be the one in love and Dany “feels nothing” when she ends their relationship. In the books Dany has a huge crush on Daario but Daario only really wants her for her crown and title, not the girl she is. And Dany knows this. And Jorah is changed into this super nice guy who is always giving her wisdom instead of this creep who is trying to isolate her from other men so she’ll only rely on him.

And when they stopped following the books? Well they really weren’t bothering to hide it much anymore. In S6, they have that idiot Show Tyrion talk about how Dany was “wrong” for not building a new system (and Tyrion is portrayed as smart for not wanting to change the way of the world even though that’s what Dany wants to do). So Tyrion wants slavery to continue for seven years (which the idiot says is a “short time”). And most disgustingly, they had him tell Missandei and Gray Worm, who were slaves their whole lives, that he now “knows the horrors of it”. A white rich guy telling two people of color that he knows about slavery… (am I looking at it too much?) Anyway, when that predictably backfires (why the hell were they always having people talk about how smart Tyrion is and Dany needs to listen to him when all he’s ever done is fail?) and Dany returns to Mereen, they have Dany talk about “returning cities to the dirt” so Tyrion can give her a more merciful strategy. And then in S7… have her rely only on Tyrion and his stupid plans. And if she dared to want to just end it quickly, they told her she would be just like her father. They even had that dumb weak idiot Show Jon say that. Book Jon would bitch slap that idiot. Book Jon wants to bring destruction to House Lannister.

Speaking of which… that scene where she meets Jon. It was funny how Dany had all her many titles spoken by Missandei when all Davos said about Jon is “He’s King in the North”, right? Well… I think those hacks wanted Show Jon to be this humble “noble king” while Dany is this “arrogant Queen with all these titles”. And they also want Dany to come as arrogant and entitled so they have her talk about all the shit she went through (like getting raped and betrayed and sold to sexual slavery) and how faith in herself kept her going. Now to the sane layman, that is a strong woman giving herself credit for believing in herself and using her strength to forge something better for herself. But to Dumb&Dumber that is an arrogant and selfish woman not crediting her abusers for her strength. Gosh I loathe Show Sansa but NO ONE deserves to be raped and to have her credit her rapist for her strength is just… wrong. In every way possible.

Then there was that crap with the Tarlys. Those idiots wanted us to see Dany as doing something evil and wrong. Actually they wanted us to see that whole battle as “wrong”. Because they have that tragic music playing and Tyrion looking sadly. The same guy who watched thousands burn in wildfire that he himself laid out. Where was the sad music then? Anyway Dany does what literally not just every King and Queen does but what ever highborn period does after defeating the enemy. She offers them the choice to bend the knee and live and keep their lands. Or death. Same choice Robert Baratheon offered Balon Greyjoy. Same choice the old Stark kings offered their rivals. The two Tarlys choose death so Dany executed them despite multiple chances. And immediately Varys starts comparing her to her father. Except her father (and people like Ramsay Snow, Tywin Lannister, Gregor Clegane, and Euron Greyjoy) wouldn’t have given multiple chances. They would have given no offers. Just murdered them all (Ramsay, Gregor, and Euron simply for their sadistic pleasure). And then they had Jon look uncomfortable when Dany said she had fewer enemies. Which is stupid. Jon has fought battles before. He’s killed thousands to take Winterfell back as Dany herself reminds him.

And they even had it said that Aegon the Conqueror started “the wheel” and got along far with fear. Except… yes Aegon was ruthless when he had to be, but as King he unified a country that was divided and plagued by constant conflicts. He gave them peace and prosperity. And he and his wives were the first to get rid of some unsavory practices. The hacks were determined to have us think that all Targaryens were “mad tyrants”. Idiots would have us think the Starks were democratically chosen leaders instead of ruthless warlords who conquered the North. They never understood the story or the characters. And the signs were there all along that they were ruining and destroying one of the greatest female characters in fictional history.

Longest post I ever wrote! I didn’t cover S8 because nothing needs to be said about that putrid shitshow. But let me end with this. I fully believe that not only will GRRM finish the books… he will give Dany a great and satisfying ending. I hope she becomes Queen but I will perfectly settle for her being alive and well. I have every confidence that she will not get that disgusting show ending. That was a shitty sexist plot point done purely for shock value. But… I guess the signs were there that those hacks never understood or respected Dany. But there are signs that George has great things planned for our beloved Dany. And then that is how she will be remembered. I’m gonna keep believing and hoping. Someone has to, and I will happily be that person. PS: Can people please tell me what they think of all this? Any questions? I’ll happily answer! And reblogs are perfectly acceptable and encouraged! I’d love to hear your thoughts and you can add anything you want.

[rhaenin-time]

Gotta love how GRRM wrote the Dance to say, "This is how a raging, xenophobic misogynist produced by an intolerant patriarchal institution would write about a woman in Rhaenyra's position. I've based it on how real raging xenophobic misogynists produced by intolerant patriarchal institutions have written about real women in Rhaenyra's position. Because as we all know, I love to show how people are trapped by the narratives society crafts around them."

Only for so many people to proceed to say, "Yeah, Rhaenyra's such a selfish whore. The raging xenophobic misogynist clearly went too easy on her."

[nobodysuspectsthebutterfly]

Do you know why no one’s attempted to bond with Vermithor until now? At least in show verse. Daemon’s ego at least seems like he would have wanted him. And the way the show’s apparently bent the lore enough to where Rhaenyra can touch him unscathed..seems like Vermithor actually inexplicably liked her lol to the point where it seems had she attempted to bond with him in her youth she may have been successful.

In show-verse, we're told that Daemon wanted Meleys (his late mother's dragon), and after Meleys rejected him and accepted Rhaenys instead, he bonded with Caraxes (Rhaenys's late father's dragon). I'm not sure exactly when all this was going on in HOTD time, but in book-verse Rhaenys was 13 and Daemon was 6 when she claimed Meleys in 87 AC (three years after Alyssa had died), and Daemon didn't claim Caraxes until he was at least 11, after Aemon died in 92 AC. But either way it doesn't matter, Jaehaerys died in 103 AC, so Vermithor wasn't freed up until then.

Now, Book!Rhaenyra first rode Syrax in 104 AC, when she was 7. Show!Rhaenyra has the same birth year, and show!Jaehaerys's death year is also the same. So Vermithor was available at the time Rhaenyra first rode Syrax (assuming that show!Rhaenya also became a dragonrider at age 7). However, it is frequently assumed that Syrax was a cradle egg (though the book says nothing one way or the other, and neither has the show). In the book Syrax is called "young" when Rhaenyra first flew her; HOTD's 1st episode script, when Rhaenyra is 14, calls Syrax "adolescent". It's quite possible Rhaenyra had no interest in Vermithor because she had her birth-bonded dragon to ride once she was big enough.

Alternatively, it's possible that the Dragonkeepers warned 7-year-old Rhaenyra away from the notably grouchy and angry Vermithor and towards a younger dragon more suitable for her age, as they did when Alyssa initially wanted to claim Balerion. In general I'd suspect that would be the case for most young dragonriders, at least the ones who weren't already bonded to cradle-egg dragons. (As Rhaenyra's sons were; it's unclear whether Sunfyre and Tessarion were cradle eggs, or bonded while very young.) And we know it was suggested that Aemond pick out a dragon egg or hatchling, before he claimed Vhagar by himself.

So yeah, I figure the Dragonkeepers would very much prefer not to see a repeat of the deeply unfortunate Aerea incident, where it was Balerion in control, taking the 12-year-old girl to his definition of home, not hers. Let alone allowing a young prince or princess to get flamed to ash on their watch. When someone young does go for a massive old dragon (Laena or Aemond with Vhagar), it seems most likely it's done where the busybody protective Dragonkeepers can't interfere... which was not Rhaenyra's situation in King's Landing.

I hope that helps!

[torchwood-99]

"Work, skills and traits that have traditionally been seen as characteristics of and appropriate for women shouldn't be derided or minimised in favour of skills and traits associated with men, and should be respected"

is a valid point, but so is;

"women shouldn't be forced to stick to work, skills and traits that are traditionally seen as womanly, even if they are valuable and important to society, and they have every right to resent and dislike a societal role and code of behaviour that has been inflicted on them regardless of ability, interest or inclination, because of something as arbitrary as gender".

Period heroines complaining about needlework and housekeeping, and fantasy heroines dreaming of sword fighting and adventures, are not a problem, and actually do give voice to the many women in the world who didn't and still don't fit into what society has decided women should be.

[horizon-verizon]

[jackoshadows]

One of Arya’s canonical relationships often ignored or minimized, because of fandom sexism, is that of her and Rickon Stark. Despite the text mentioning several times that Arya loves to play with babies, this is ignored simply because her character is often critiqued - by both feudal Westeros and fandom - for not performing femininity as per patriarchal ideals.

Arya had loved nothing better than to sit at her father's table and listen to them talk. She had loved listening to the men on the benches too; to freeriders tough as leather, courtly knights and bold young squires, grizzled old men-at-arms. She used to throw snowballs at them and help them steal pies from the kitchen. Their wives gave her scones and she invented names for their babies and played monsters-and-maidens and hide-the-treasure and come-into-my-castle with their children. Fat Tom used to call her "Arya Underfoot," because he said that was where she always was. She'd liked that a lot better than "Arya Horseface." - Arya, AGoT

Arya has a closer relationship with both Bran and Rickon, right from when they are babies - it’s not just a case of her hanging around the boys. When Robb takes Sansa, Arya and Bran down into the crypts to prank them, it’s Arya’s hand that baby Bran clutches when he is scared.

Her brother Robb had taken them down, her and Sansa and baby Bran, who'd been no bigger than Rickon  was now. (---) Sansa kept looking at the stubby little candle, anxious that it might go out. Old Nan had told her there were spiders down here, and rats as big as dogs. Robb smiled when she said that. "There are worse things than spiders and rats," he whispered. "This is where the dead walk." That was when they heard the sound, low and deep and shivery. Baby Bran had clutched at Arya's hand. - Arya, AGoT

Sansa’s only nostalgic memory of Rickon in her POV appears when she thinks Arya is safely back in Winterfell:

Once in a while, Sansa even missed her sister. By now Arya was safe back  in Winterfell, dancing and sewing, playing with Bran and baby Rickon,  even riding through the winter town if she liked. - Sansa, ACoK

And when Arya misses her family back home:

She wanted to tease Bran and play with baby Rickon and have Robb smile at her. - Arya, AGoT

After going on the run, Arya is concerned and worried for Rickon and wonders how tall he would have grown:

A whooping gang of small children went running past, chasing a rolling  hoop. Arya stared at them with resentment, remembering the times she'd  played at hoops with Bran and Jon and their baby brother Rickon. She wondered how big Rickon  had grown, and whether Bran was sad - Arya, AGoT

For a moment Arya forgot to breathe. Dead? Bran and Rickon,  dead? What does he mean? What does he mean about Winterfell, Joffrey  could never take Winterfell, never, Robb would never let him. Then she  remembered that Robb was not at Winterfell. He was away in the west, and Bran was crippled, and Rickon only four. It took all her strength to remain still and silent, the way Syrio Forel had taught her, to stand there like a stick of furniture. She felt tears gathering in her eyes, and willed them away. It's not true, it can't be true, it's   just some Lannister lie. - Arya, ACoK

She watched the parchment twist, blacken, and flare up. If the Lannisters hurt Bran and Rickon,  Robb will kill them every one.  - Arya, ACoK

So canonically it’s Arya who played with baby Rickon, misses him terribly in KL, wonders how tall he has grown and worries over what is happening to him in Winterfell. All this is Arya, not Sansa.

Note: This is not a critique of Sansa and how much she thinks of her family. There is nothing wrong in not wanting to be near babies or not wanting to play with babies. There is nothing wrong in not wanting to hang around little children or not wanting to care for them. Especially as Sansa and Arya are themselves children!! They are only 9 and 11 when the story starts and are now 11 and 13.

This is a critique of a fandom that twists Arya into some ‘NLOG’ caricature, ‘male-coded’, masculine, being violent, impulsive, too damaged, going around biting people, who can only fight or kill, wanting to sail away instead of being home with family, cannot become Lady of Winterfell because she is not the right kind of lady, has internalized misogyny etc. - all because her character disliked a few activities like sewing, singing and dancing. And all the while projecting qualities like motherhood, maternal feelings, womanhood, romance, marriage, children on 11/13 year old Sansa.

Things get even worse with the Jon/Sansa shippers, who turn Jon and Sansa into some masochistic, twisted idea of Ned and Cat (Because of course Jon Snow is a self-loathing, pathetic, shallow, sad sack of shite craving Catelyn’s approval and falling for the daughter who looks like Cat and acts a snob towards him simply because she’s too beautiful to resist at 11 years old ��) and therefore Rickon is going to see them together and think they are his parents....

Like I said, taking from Arya’s canonical relationships in the books and giving to Sansa because the tradfem section of fandom are unable to read Arya as having a loving and caring relationship with her little siblings.

And then there’s Rickon Stark himself. First of all, Rickon would surely remember Jon Snow and Sansa as his siblings? Why would he think they are Ned and Cat? They are not clones!! 

Secondly, Rickon and Shaggy were mirroring each other’s wildness before they even left Winterfell. It’s Shaggydog who was biting people! Rickon then grew up during his formative years with Osha in Skagos or Cannibal Island. Osha is of the Freefolk and the Skagosi, like the Freefolk, talk in the Old Tongue. They live in caves and perform human sacrifices. This Rickon is going to see Jon and Sansa and go all ‘Mama and papa!’ and think he is their baby?! 😂😂😂

Then there’s all these future speculations and theorizing about how Sansa is going to become Rickon’s regent in TWoW. Again, how? Sansa is 13 in the TWoW sample chapter. Is she suddenly going to magically grow 3 years in the next chapter and turn 16? Additionally, the regent should have a good know how of the North to help the Lord of Winterfell run WF and the North - again, canonically it’s Arya who knows how Winterfell works, who refers to her father’s advice and teachings and who follows her father’s idea of Northern justice.

The only Stark/Snow who currently has the age and experience to become anyone’s regent is Jon Snow. And I don’t even see him being appointed as one, rather it’s more likely he is made KITN.

So after Bran, the Stark closest to Rickon is Arya. And then it’s most possibly Jon Snow. Jon who tells Tyrion to take a message for Rickon in Winterfell and Rickon who stopped to tell Jon hi at the feast and kept asking Bran why Jon was not sitting with them.

The only reason 13 year old Sansa keeps being connected to Rickon as some kind of maternal mother figure is because of fandom sexism and their rigid ideas of gender, femininity and even toxic masculinity.

[ariamariastark1]

Am I the only one who gets weirded out with the amount of Terfism and Trad Wives in he ASOIAF fandom?

It’s a combination of

“X character has male privilege she likes to play with swords ”

“X character doesn’t deserve *thing* because she is male coded and Z deserves it because she is a soft female*

“To be feminine you have to (insert things that only rich women can do/afford) and that (symbol of lower class femininity) isn’t valid and actually is masculine

“X character has renounced her womanhood because when she was 9 years old she wanted to play with her friends and not sit with a woman that she didn’t like”

“ I headcanon X character as gender queer because ’she’ (insert here previous points) (proceeds to ignore how headcanoning that would destroy X character’s message). What!? No, you can’t headcanon Z character as Gender Queer, you’re so sexist!”

“Ignores the fact that GRRM denounces this type of thinking and that in ASOIAF he condemns this repeatedly

[blackcat419]

HotD and Race

While George R.R. Martin is a very skilled writer, he fails at writing characters of color, with disabilities, or female characters a lot. There are countless examples of marginalized character’s experiencing 10x the violence of their white and male counterparts while receiving little to no characterization.

For example, Lollys Stokeworth is a disabled woman who is brutally raped and forced to have a child from that. There is little humanization within the narrative for her as everyone either finds her annoying or a burden. Her trauma is ignored and pushed to the side lines.

Another example is Alayaya who is black sex worker brutalized by Tywin to get to Tyrion and is used by Tyrion as a cover for his visits to Shae. After she is whipped and thrown out of the red keep, we only hear about her having sex with other characters.

And the most famous example is Miri Mas dur. A victim of extreme physical, sexual, and emotional violence, saw her whole community either killed or enslaved, and was burned alive for fighting back against her oppressors.

All this to say that making house Velaryon black is a further insult to minority viewers as this house is repeatedly victimized, side lined, and killed to push the claims of white characters. And to add on to this, the family is never allowed to be upset about this without the text punishing them and fandom calling them entitled. Corlys is such a butchered character.

[black-queen-rising]

Me desperately trying to find this so-called "bias" it often feels like a solid two thirds of this fandom claim that the HotD producers/writers have towards Rhaenyra when literally every single change to other characters has fundamentally come from minimizing/obfuscating/or otherwise reducing her narrative and overall characterization and character.

Yes, I'm sure this woman who they have invented continual bad decisions, internalized misogyny, blatant disregard for the people closest to her, ineptitude, blindspots, and blatant, borderline unbelievable public disdain for in their adaptation of her character; who's background as a victim of child abuse, of continual misogynistic psychological and eventual physical violence, who's love of both other women and her own womanhood, infamy in her charm and popularity and continual attempts (and yes, often failures) to rise above the positions she was forced into they have also ERASED...is actually someone they're going out of their way to portray sympathetically?

Oh, but they favor her because...idk they haven't shown her being violently raped or repeatedly physically abused? Because you believe they actually think that making her seem like an idiot who never knows or thinks about what she's doing is somehow favorable?? Because it seems like ANY of these changes have actually endeared her to the fandom much less the show's general audience??? I literally cannot explain it most of the time, it baffles me.

I know I shouldn't be because why should any of us ever be shocked by misogyny in media anymore? By the portrayal of a woman for a mass-media (and heavily desired male) audience that's reductive and hollow?? But it's simply unreal to see how so many people somehow believe that this was done out of some sort of benevolence or favoritism. That so many people believe any of the changes made in the opposite direction of, and often active opposition to Rhaenyra's portrayal in Fire and Blood, were made out of some sort of desire to make her a tangibly more sympathetic or broadly understandable character, is something I'm not sure I'll ever be able to fully understand.

Except, of course, in the view that I really hope not everyone who says this sort of thing actually believes; that a self-confident woman who exercises her own agency is such an affront that even an unsympathetic, inconsistent, reductive, and idiotic cardboard cutout of a character is still a more respectable alternative.

[sunderwight]

Thinking about the absolute shitshow that is the Iron Throne and succession on this sunny ash-cloud filled morning.

So as I understand it, there are a lot of different potential inheritance structures for the Iron Throne to be passed down via, because the Targaryens can draw precedents from any of their subjects (Andal, First Men, Ironborn, etc) with varying degrees of viability, plus also Old Valyrian practices, and however they were actually conducting themselves on Dragonstone for the hundred or so years between the Doom and the Conquest. Right? But I think the relevant ones for HOTD are:

Primogeniture, Male Preference vs Absolute Male Preference vs Absolute Primogeniture, Heir Designation, Elective Succession, and Right of Conquest.

Primogeniture is the inheritance model where the eldest child inherits everything. Inheritance isn't divided between potential heirs upon the death of their parent, it's winner takes all. Or rather, eldest son does. This looks to be how most of Westeros operates by default, and how inheritance works according to Andal law. The eldest son (or daughter if there are no sons) gets the title and all the other properties held by his predecessor unless he's been disinherited, and then other successors are determined in a similar order along the family tree (i.e. your next eldest brother would be your heir if you didn't have any kids, then sisters, then first cousins, and so on). But this also applies to heirs themselves, meaning, if you are Jaehaerys I and your son Aemon is your heir, and Aemon's only child and daughter Rhaenys is his heir, then if Aemon dies, Rhaenys gets everything that belonged to Aemon, including Aemon's position as your heir. Which is why Rhaenys would have been the first ruling queen of Westeros, had Andal custom in fact been followed.

Then, male preference and absolute male preference are systems that determine how much sexism is in play when it comes to selecting viable heirs. Absolute male preference means that only men may inherit, and only through their male relatives. Male preference means that sons get preferential treatment, but in absence of them, daughters can inherit (and also that sons can inherit through their female relatives, if applicable). Most of Andal tradition falls under male preference, where an eldest daughter will not inherit before her younger brothers, but it's not absolute because a daughter with no brothers will inherit before her uncles or male cousins. Absolute primogeniture is, on the other hand, when the eldest child is heir regardless of gender. I think this is what Viserys was gunning for, since his negotiations with Corlys and Rhaenys for Laenor and Rhaenyra's children indicated that he expected Rhaenyra's eldest child to inherit the Iron Throne one day, with no stipulation on gender. This would also seem to be the system that Dorne uses.

Heir designation, on the other hand, is when the ruler has the right to personally select their heir from all viable candidates (typically, their children or perhaps grandchildren, or sometimes siblings or even more distant relations). Heir designation doesn't seem to be standard for Andal culture or even what we see of the First Men (hence things like Samwell Tarly being disinherited via the Wall rather than his father just naming his younger brother Dickon as heir over him), but could have been practiced by the Valyrians, and it is this possible precedent of Valyrian tradition which Jaehaerys uses (I think?) to declare his younger son Baelon (Viserys and Daemon's dad) as his heir over his granddaughter Rhaenys, before Baelon's death inspired Jaehaerys to call for the Council of 101 to decide the succession instead.

Which is where elective succession unexpectedly comes into things. I think the only Iron Throne vassal we see practicing such a thing are the Iron Islands, with their kingsmoot? But the Iron Islands are not generally popular or often emulated elsewhere in Westeros, of course, so in this case Old Jae's probably still taking his cues more from Essos or potentially also Old Valyria? The Council of 101 may or may not have been rigged, but at least by appearances, it allowed the lords of Westeros to elect their next leader from a limited pool of candidates (Rhaenys or Viserys).

The final succession structure relevant to HOTD, of course, is the Right of Conquest. Right of Conquest is when the realm will legally grant you the ownership of something if you have seized it via some kind of military might (usually with some stipulation that you have not only taken it, but held onto it for at least X length of time). In Westeros, the Right of Conquest was how Aegon I and his wives used their dragons to establish the Iron Throne, and as a rule it can pretty much overthrow all the other precedents (as it did for the conquerors). But I'm pretty sure this is also why the succession feud after Viserys' death is pretty much guaranteed to become a fight, and it's a major contributing factor to there being so many goddamn civil wars in Westeros. Can't beat your brother's claim? Well, try beating his ass instead!

So... basically, we have a giant, inconsistent mess that has been muddying the waters of the Iron Throne's succession pretty much from the beginning. The Iron Throne follows mostly Andal law and customs, except when the king doesn't want to, and then maybe it follows Valyrian customs or Essosi customs that might be Valyrian or some custom from some other group of subjects or the king just goes "I do what I want" and reminds everyone else (inadvertently, in the case of Viserys) that there is a legal Whoever Punches Hardest Wins clause baked into the system.

Which makes it nigh-on impossible to claim that such-and-such a candidate in HOTD (or even ASOIAF) is being robbed of their rightful inheritance, doesn't it? Whether it's Rhaenyra being the designated heir or Aegon being the eldest son, not just because it's all claptrap anyway, but because there is no stable precedent for who actually has the rightful inheritance even when you're trying to play ball with the existing systems. After Aegon I's death the throne passed to his eldest son, Aenys, but the throne then went to Aenys' brother Maegor instead of his kids. But ultimately Maegor was wildly unpopular and died childless, and so everyone decided that was an outlier and the throne reverted back to Aenys' line, and went to Aenys' son Jaehaerys. Which means there's no firm or stable ground to fall back on before Jaehaerys' own sexist farce of a succession, or the absolute hash Viserys subsequently made of the matter either. Andal law and custom would normally favor Aegon over Rhaenyra, that's true, but those same laws and customs would have also favored Rhaenys over Viserys, and the throne's predominantly Andal vassals voted against that. Which might seem to endorse heir designation, since that was how Jaehaerys selected Baelon and through Baelon, Viserys, as his own successors, but then again the Council was called on the premise that heir designation was insufficient, so perhaps an elective system should actually be in play? But Viserys doubled-down on heir designation and/or absolute primogeniture instead, without even really clarifying which he meant the throne to go by. If he actually filed paperwork beyond the sworn oaths (which he didn't even renew after Aegon's birth or in the decades after), it didn't survive to make into the historical record.

And of course, everything can be upended at any time by a sufficient show of force. Which is not only viable in terms of forcing the issue, but also legally valid, and thus less liable to prompt rebellions and strong rejections from the general populace.

Ultimately we know that the Iron Throne settles on absolute male preference and primogeniture, but all the characters trying to apply this standard to the Dance era are doing so in retroactive judgment.

[carolinemoon]

I saw a super interesting video from a youtuber I follow who has received hate for saying that hotd is sexist. People apparently don't understand that sexism isn't just thinking that a woman is only good for raising children, giving birth and cleaning, but also thinking or promoting that for a woman to believe herself worthy of the place she occupies and to be empowered she has to renounce all femininity, painting everything traditionally feminine as something toxic and harmful, that a woman's greatest aspiration is to be a man. In short, I'm very happy that more and more people understand this. I'm a little tired of women saying "I'm not like other girls" 🙄 I mean I like makeup, one of my favorite colors are pastels, especially pink and purple, I collect Barbies xd, surely these people think I'm inferior or an unworthy woman, but no, I'm still an independent woman, with an education, who knows how valuable she is, a traditionally feminine woman is not synonymous with submissive.