#but i love elias loving jon more than anything else in the world

[somuchbetterthanthat]

Jonelias day 3! It's when people start to realize that, wait, I truly do have an endless recurring theme, huh. Setting: sick // Prompt: confessions

This... was not what Elias had expected. The goal, of course, had always been for Jon to be marked by the encounter in some fashion, and Elias had been eagerly waiting for it. This was to be the first stepping stone to his grand and final plan, after all, the apotheosis of centuries of work -- And yet, as Jon laid down on the ground, worms burrying into his skin, there had been no satisfaction whatsoever.

Hours later, Jon trembling with fever in Elias's bed, Elias still couldn't make out what had gone wrong -- or, rather, he feared he understood too well, but the idea was so ludicrous it was hard to entertain.

Half gone from both the sickness and the medication he'd taken for it, Jon was murmuring under his breath bribes of statements, mostly from the Corruption, his voice regularly shifting to the pitch of Jane Prentiss. Elias sat next to him, running a fresh wet towel over his face and neck, and kept staring, and staring, and staring.

Jon was going to be better in the morning -- he was too tied to the Institute for a few worms to claim him, and even if he hadn't, the spiders were protecting him; a few had slipped under his tongue a couple of hours ago, no doubt to devour the last remains of the unwanted parasites. Elias ought to let them to it, ought to let Jon to it, have him fully take in the encounter so that he may wake up stronger, changed, more beautiful still than he'd already been --

But he couldn't. Just as he hadn't been able to stop himself from bringing Jon home to him, ignoring Jon's fervent and exhausted insistence he was going to be just fine on him own despite having fainted mere minutes before, while finishing to interview Martin. Just he hadn't been able to stop his arm from pulling the handle of the fire sprinklers much earlier than first planned.

"I didn't think you'd care," Jon had muttered in the car, shivering, annoyed and quiet and still painfully grateful not to be alone after all this, no matter what he said out loud.

"You almost died, Jon," Elias had retorted, voice tight.

"Maybe you'll believe me next time I tell you a supernatural monster is hunting us," Jon had snarked, before slouching a little bit more into the car seat, eyes half closing. "You saved me, though. I guess I haven't said thank you yet, have I?"

"Rest," Elias had ordered, but Jon had fumbled to grab his arm, very briefly.

"Thank you," he'd whispered.

"What have you done to me, you terrible thing?" Elias asked now, at last, very softy. His hand brushed against Jon's cheek, who unconsciously leaned into it with a gentle sigh. "The Mother wouldn't have given you to me if they didn't wish for the same thing I do," he continued, all too aware of how tender his tone was. "If you were always meant to distract me, then why let Prentiss attack us at all? Is it all you, Jon? What do you have than none of the others had?"

Had Elias underestimated his own loneliness those past decades, that he would be so taken by this new young man to forget what truly mattered? Had it been easier to discard past lovers because they weren't made of the same ilk he was, or because he'd been then surrounded by many more people to fall in love with next? Was this a fancy, a midlife crisis, as it were, two centuries in the making, or was it just that Jon was everything Elias hadn't thought he would find one day? A mirror; a potential equal; a true partner, at last.

"I suppose I do truly love you," he confessed, slowly. The truth, not quite agreeable, seemed to be fearsome enough that Jon's eyes suddenly opened wide to look back at Elias. Elias shivered and considered killing him, right there, right then. It wouldn't be hard to explain away, after today, and Elias would not even have to fake the heartbreak.

But no. Just because it wasn't what he had expected didn't mean that it couldn't be interesting in its own right. Just because Elias hadn't wanted it didn't mean he wasn't curious about following another path, one closer to Jon and less focused, at least for now, on ending the world properly.

"Let's see together where this lead us," he told Jon. "It's been a very long time since I prioritized love, if I ever did at all -- this ought to feel novel for the both of us."

It seemed appropriate, then, to lean forward and kiss Jon. To make a proper vow out of it.

"Elias?" Jon mumbled, vaguely, against his lips.

"Shh," crooned Elias, now quite decided. "Sleep. Tomorrow is going to be full of surprises for the both of us, my love."

[212thghost]

im still not over Jordan Kennedy.

the exterminator that crawled through endless tunnels smothered in ants forced to become one with them. when exactly did Jordan become part of the colony, truly? was it when he was metamorphosed, when Jon took him and made him something else, or was it when he could not tell where his limbs ended and the rolling tide of insects began? was it when he first arrived at Amherst’s house and followed, of his own conscious volition, the ants inside? there is so little we truly know about Jordan besides what he becomes. 

he asks Jon, “am i still me?” and there is no answer to that. is Jordan still Jordan? is the butterfly still the caterpillar? is the ship of theseus still the same ship if it has been remade? do we, the audience, even know Jordan? what do we know about him beyond the fact he was an exterminator, knew more than the average person about the supernatural, and was kind enough to give Jon peace of mind but not kind enough to resist being an avatar when given the option of going back to innocence. 

as Jordan speaks you can hear an agitated buzzing of what can only be insect wings–he is now the queen ant he has been desperately searching for, the sole being that controls and colony and feeds off the fear they cause. Jordan is remade into the very thing he feared with every part of his soul. he feels sick and wrong and unfathomably different, but he still cannot deny how good it feels to no longer be the scared one. 

when given the choice to go back to being an innocent victim, he vehemently says no. he was in hell and he still is, but no longer the one being tortured. Jon equally saves him and damns him. how could he go back? how could he willingly choose to be relentlessly tortured, drowning in his own fear and so, so, many ants? to think that there are some people who would choose to not be an avatar makes Jordan all the more interesting. he didn’t ask for this, he does not want to be an avatar in any way, but in the end he still cannot fathom being anything else. anything is better than the ants, even if it means inflicting that fear onto countless others. it’s a completely unfair choice but he makes it all the same. 

Jordan did not want this, but like Jon and the Eye, he chooses it. 

and Jon’s decision here, to make someone into something new completely against their will. time and time again, we see the Eye manifesting as a betrayal of consent. Elias makes Jon into the Archivist against his knowledge and will, Jon cuts the bullet out of Melanie while she’s asleep, Jon and Elias seeing the secrets and pasts of others, and finally Jon turning Jordan into an avatar. the true horror of the Watcher is this betrayal and breach of consent. being perceived and watched is fine if you agree to it, if you share a secret willingly and gladly, and even the most horrific knowledge is best processed when prepared for it. but the Eye does not ask–Jon does not ask. he takes Jordan and remakes him and calls it mercy. not only has Jordan been utterly remade, forced to feed off the very fear he once experienced, it was never a choice he had any real say in. not when it mattered. 

i can’t help but wonder if Jon’s words were true. when Jordan says he doesn’t know how to scare people, Jon says, “you’ll learn,” which holds an almost uncanny resemblance to how Elias answered his own questions. Jon learned how to scare people and most of all, he learned to like it. Jon, like Jordan, didn’t want to be an avatar but he did choose it, in the end.

i can’t help but wonder if over time, Jordan accepted that he was a part of the colony. when the world was reset, i wonder if he missed the ants even as he hated himself for it? did they make him feel loved like how the wasps loved Jane? could he hear their singing? did he finally understand Jane, the being that had haunted his nightmares? did he ever feel whole again, without the trillions upon trillions of ants crawling through his tunnel-like veins? did he have to learn to walk without the weight of wings? 

when the world was set right, what happened to Jordan? did he go back to being the same Jordan before the tunnels, before becoming the leader of the colony, or was he a piece of something that was once whole and never can be again? 

Jon tells Jordan “i helped you,” but did he really? he saved him from his torment but brought upon him one that, all things considered, might be even worse.

[magnuspanoptes]

Hello! I'm relistening to tma and absolutely loving your blog, your posts, observations and audio edits (Me and the devil gave me goosebumps, I'm not kidding. It's perfect). I was wondering what you thought about the finale? You probably talked about it and I simply haven't reached that particular post yet, but I'm wondering if you consider it to be thematically fitting or not

I didn't actually listen to the last season beyon the first couple of episodes. I was busy by then and never got around to it. But I've read the summary and I've seen that in the end they had two choices: Jon becomes the Eye and keeps watch as the world extinguishes around him, taking his friends and, hopefully, the fears with it, or they open a door to another world (killing Jon in the process although I'm not sure why or how, but I trust they must) and drag the fears there, freeing their world and surviving but dooming unseen others. I'd have loved if what took place was the first choice, and I think it would have been thematically fitting, except it would have almost been a good ending, no? The fears (probably) defeated, even though the price is everyone's life. But the second is also very fitting with just, humanity, and the actions of the characters up until that point (the woman in the cave begging the buried to "take her not me, take her not me") the actions of Johna, the need to survive. So I was curious about your thoughts

Apologies for the lenght

thank you 💜 i'm always very happy to hear people like the edits

about the finale, they had this trolley problem-esque scenario where they could either let jon ascend to godhood and speed up the end of the world which would starve all the fears, or take annabelle cane's bargain of reversing the apocalypse by releasing the fears into infinite universes. jon didn't need to die for the second option to work, they were just told to kill jonah and burn down the institute. it's difficult to talk about the thematic relevance of either choice without further context, so i'm going to bring up some s5 plot details. the big one being that the web had orchestrated the events leading up to the apocalypse (they had this planned since MAG 1, it's very obvious on a re-listen), it was in their interest for the eye's ritual to occur, and the eye's ritual is jon, so it was in their interest to have jon marked. they directly interfere with almost all of his s4 marks while elias is in prison. but the broader implication of this was that the web was revealed to be The Narrative. the tapes belonged to them and the tapes are the frame device of the podcast. i think on paper this is a very clever bit of metatexutal story choice, especially since they were aiming for a tragedy, and this has that precise sense of tragic inevitability to it, that this was always going to happen, because they were never going to escape the trappings of the narrative.

so what happens in the finale is that everyone agrees to go with annabelle's offer, except for jon (well he agrees to it and then runs off to do his own thing) he climbs the panopticon in MAG 200 with the intent to kill jonah and replace him as the pupil of the eye, he successfully achieves the first bit and then martin walks in to reveal he told the others to go ahead with their plan before time so jon's prevented from crawling into the eye. they end up releasing the fears. i don't think this is thematically incoherent, part of their thesis was that there's nothing more human than making the decision to doom someone else—hundreds of people, an entire world—for personal salvation. it's why plenty of people chose to become avatars. it's what jonah did. it's what he hear from a lot of statement-givers, lost john's cave is that, yeah, but also MAG 29 cheating death. they didn't fix anything, they just passed it over. so it's an appropriately cynical ending (not entirely. the last words are, "good luck", that was another bit of thesis. that the stacks are against you but you have to Try). so on paper this works. i personally hated it lol because i think 1) the web multiverse reveal comes too late. like way too late. like literally three episodes before the finale. 2) it's comically rushed. one minute jon's telling him, "sorry i have to do this." (and this is while martin's audibly tearing up and having a little breakdown. jon's not even slightly moved by this) but two minutes later it's, "i love you martin cut the tether <3" it's just not effective. 3) the emotional thrust of the finale largely hinged on whether or not you cared about jonmartin and brother (gn) i did not. and 4) the horror of it happens out of sight. we're told those countless universes they doomed are Real but it's just presented as a statistic to us, they're not narratively real the same way their world is, and i can't be horrified by a statistic. and finally 5) i'm a very jon-centric guy in my reading of the podcast, i enjoy the thematic implications of the first choice a lot more because of what they would mean for his character.

the thing about the first five minutes of 200 is that it's jon's personal attempt to escape the grasp of the fears. avatarhood in the podcast is about the transformative nature of trauma and this is the basis of jon's story arc. marking is not this nebulous collect these 14 scars level up into the archive type of thing, marking is about being traumatised, and trauma is about being rendered helpless because of the application of force: through violence inflicted by another person or the environment. so in the first four seasons of the podcast jon has his mind and body continuously violated and is made abjectly helpless, it's in the way elias says he had to "instill in [jon] a powerful and acute fear for their life" and that can only be achieved by making jon experience a total loss of control in each encounter. my favourite bit of podcast writing on this theme is the way a guest for mr spider sets him up for future marks (here and here), so jon's story is a trauma narrative and jon's story is about agency and the lengths he will go to get back some semblance of control. he's a survivor who will later become a perpetrator. s4 is very sharp about this, jon exercising his abilities is about power, it feels good precisely because he gets to be the one in control for once, and not the one being victimised. they continue this in season five when he begins seeking out every avatar who marked him. and this is not framed as a righteous thing because revenge doesn't really bring the catharsis that is desired, doesn't undo the harm that was done. jon giving into his urges here is not a straightforward narrative of ascension, it's actively destructive to him and we see this reach its peak in 200 which is a suicide wish. he went in there to play out a revenge suicide fantasy. he was just told that his entire life has been a set up for the apocalypse, that his body was made an object, a vessel for all that horror and violence by jonah and the web for the completion of their own private goals. choosing to kill the fears is about jon not wanting anyone else to experience his guilt, yes, but it's primarily about the desire to get even. it's very evident in his choice of words, "I will have the satisfaction of knowing that I’ll be leaving these things that you serve trapped and starving in their own private hell.", 160 is jonah's ritual to escape the grasp of fears by dooming the world, 200 is jon's ritual. and it IS a ritual, it seeks to transform the world in a manner that "[would] remake that physical reality into something closer to itself. [fear entity] wants to make this world its own." and the specific fear this serves is the extinction! remaking their world into a lifeless void is how peter lukas describes the extinction, how jon speaks of his intentions to jonah, (read the transcript dialogue in this post before continuing), i suspect that's one of their scrapped plotlines. i don't think this would've been a hopeful ending. he's willingly, lucidly killing an entire world (including his friends) this is an incredible, tragic low for jon. and is the final step that allows him to symbolically take jonah's place in the narrative (x) and crucially. i don't think it would've worked out the way he wanted it to. what i'm imagining here is that like jonah, jon's attempt would've also ultimately proven unsuccessful because that's another thing about the magnus archives universe, you cannot extricate yourself from that cycle of existentially meaningless violence.

and it's pretty easy to see what would've happened here, his attempt to choke the fears dry ends up birthing another fear and reallyyy interesting possibility here of jon himself being the final fear, his "I wonder if they’re even capable of fearing their own ends. I look forward to finding out." makes me lean towards this, because see, as an avatar he's functionally a fear eating vampire who has spent several seasons struggling with his affliction and for his last gambit he hoped to end the forces that have enabled his suffering except it would've led to his final apotheosis into one of them. this essentially gives him the power to subdue the other fears, but it does not bring him the escape he desired. because he's part of that dread power cosmic fear machine now. he's IN CHARGE of it now. this makes a tremendous amount of thematic sense to me (comes at the cost of an entire world) and is an appropriately tragic ending for his character and is also something that would've thwarted the web's role as the master entity as he assumes its place. he finally gets his narrative agency back but in theee worst, most horrifying way possible. compels me.

[madbard]

I can’t stop thinking about a TMA fic idea where, instead of going Somewhere Else at the end of the series, Martin wakes up back in the safe house the morning the world ended.

Jon doesn’t remember anything. Neither, it seems, does anyone else. Martin checks the statements they’ve received and finds Elias’ message in the top file, exactly where he had expected it. In classic Martin fashion, he promptly commits arson and discards of the ashes. If none of this feels quite real, then at least it is a pleasant dream. It’s been so long since he’s dreamed like this.

Martin and Jon have a lovely, quiet day. They walk over to see the cows. They eat together, and Martin prepares tea. Jon knows something is wrong, but Martin brushes it off, blaming his strange mood on nightmares. It’s been a rough few years, and even rougher few months. If Martin seems a bit… off, well, it only makes sense.

Moreover, something in Jon doesn’t want to know what Martin is hiding. Something in him so deeply yearns to keep its eyes shut.

That night, they go to sleep, side by side. Jon lies across from Martin, relatively human and relatively happy and, most importantly, alive. Martin falls asleep tracing the scars on his hands.

The next morning begins like any in the safe house. Martin wakes up and wanders over to the kitchen to make some tea, while Jon follows him, still fighting off sleep. The morning light through the windows sets everything aglow and as Martin opens up the cupboard, he couldn’t be happier… until his hand brushes empty air.

“… Jon?”

“Hm?”

“Where’s the tea we bought yesterday?” At this point he knows. But he has to be sure. And when Jon looks up at him, confused, and tells him that they ran out yesterday and certainly didn’t purchase any more, that they were planning to buy some today, Martin felt that truth solidify in his stomach like a stone.

Jon sees the change in Martin’s expression and this time he almost asks - but that same part of him that covered his eyes earlier now rears up and nearly chokes him. He doesn’t want to know.

“Martin? What-”

Martin doesn’t give him the chance to finish. In seconds, he’s out the door, crumpling Elias’ message as he walks.

That day is quiet and difficult, filled with arguments and half-asked questions, obviously false answers. When they fall asleep, Jon is turned away. Martin stares up at the ceiling until sleep claims him.

The next day seems a bit dimmer. He stays in bed with Jon as long as he can, feeling the steady thrum of his pulse, the warmth of his breath, as they hold each other in the quiet morning.

Days pass, then weeks. Martin learns every path by heart, every conversation, at first precious, eventually made dull by repetition. Sometimes, he’s able to smile. Sometimes, he admits that he can feel the Lonely rolling over him like the tide. (What could be lonelier than going through such an experience, and being unable to talk about it? What could be lonelier than knowing that, no matter what, everything you do today will be forgotten tomorrow?) Jon can offer comfort, but he cannot ask why that comfort is needed. He cannot know.

In the end, Martin wakes up early. He puts Elias’ message in his pocket and goes into town, buying tea and pastries and two pairs of comfortable walking shoes.

They share a warm breakfast together, as a thick white fog hangs around the cabin. Martin finishes his tea, and places the statement on the table when Jon isn’t looking.

“I’m going to go for a walk.”

“In this fog?” Jon looks out the window, and in his eyes, Martin sees the reflection of the Lonely. He gets up and walks over.

“I just want to stretch my legs. I’ll be back before lunch, alright?”

Jon meets his gaze, and if some communication passes between them, it is swiftly buried by the fog. “Alright. I need to take a statement anyway.”

Before leaving, Martin bends down and kisses him, just once.

“I love you.”

“I love you too.”

Martin steps out into the mist and walks, walks and walks until the world ends.

[kairos-polaris]

I have a lot of thoughts and opinions on jonelias and I was encouraged to share them, so here some things about how I see them/what I want from them in fics/how I write them in order of most to least important

the first two are equally important but I see the first one more so I'll start with it

1. Names

I am very particular about names so it's important to me the way Jon and Jonah call each other

I've talked about it before but it's so important to me that Elias calls Jon by his name. which he does canonically! he calls Jon by his name all the time!! so I am a bit annoyed when in fics Elias calls Jon Archivist every sentence. the exception for it is "my Archivist" but not if it's overused, then it doesn't hit the same

same for Jon calls Jonah Elias post reveal. I prefer the canon version of Jon calling him Jonah. it's an acknowledgement of the person Jonah has always been, the person Jon actually liked and then hated, not the man he never met

2. Elias' attitude towards Jon

it's vital to me that Elias isn't casual when it comes to Jon. I've read a couple of fics when he is casual about Jon and their relationship and I was like :((((

this might be me being sentimental but also I just don't think Elias would risk his plans by getting involved with Jon if he was casual or normal about him. it just doesn't make sense. for what purpose? showing that he has power over Jon? or that he controls him? I don't think it fits his character honestly. Elias is a passive observer first and foremost, he serves the Eye not the Web for a reason

3. Obsession

they should be obsessed with each other, not normal at the very least. Jon refuses to acknowledge that he is obsessed with his boss and keeps insisting their relationship is normal (no one believes him). Elias is aware and doesn't even try convincing people he isn't obsessed with Jon. maybe even claiming Jon in front of other avatars without Jon even realising it

4. Mutual interest

this one isn't as vital but I do want them to be like this 👁️👁️ when it comes to the other. both Elias and Jon should want to inspect the other under a microscope

Jon's interest can be less intense later on but he canonically deeply respected Elias and knew there was more to him than a mild mannered boring manger he presented himself as ("Elias is a difficult man to pin down" I bet Elias was extremely flattered, that his Archivist was paying attention and seeing what he painstakingly tried to conceal)

this is more about me not liking Peter Lukas but it's important to me that Elias is more interested in Jon than he has ever been with Peter. that his interest is so blatantly obvious (read one fic where Elias cheated on Jon with Peter and I was like 😟 nooooo)

also now that I think of it, I don't mind them being interested in someone else but I do need them to prioritise each other (exception is jondaisy but that's because my coolest mutual ships them and loves Daisy and I love their take on their relationship and Daisy)

5. Liking each other

this one isn't that important but I think it's neat when they just like each other as people, when they have shared interests, when they can talk for hours about the most random topics. and also Jon ranting to Elias and knowing he listens and is actually interested

hear me out, hear me out, if Elias postponed ending the world they could totally have some peaceful domestic relationship (am now thinking about them being married pre canon and having a comfortable relationship but everything else is canon and Jon spends season 3 wondering if anything about their life together was true and then one day in season 4 learning that it was real and true and Elias wasn't lying when he said his vows or when he said he loves Jon)

5. Sexless sex

while I enjoy je smut (especially the ones that include Jon being ace) sexless Eye sex is everything to me. and mind meld. anything involving telepathy and Beholding kink

whether it's them staring at each other (unnerving everyone else in the room) or Elias watching Jon read/take a statement or maybe even Jon compelling Elias or taking a statement from him. I love it all

Beholding is like a third in their relationship. To Me

[cannibaldetective]

this has probably been talked about, but martin burning statements in s3 and it being simplified to a tantrum and his feelings for jon, erasing him as a person outside of jon and the archives shows a lot not only about martin but also elias.

martin has always been reduced to jon's plus one or jon's employee, and he wasn't even chosen by jon (not until s4). elias immediately pokes fun at him and tries to make everything about him seem as small as possible and that his association with jon is all that really matters, "of course did jon tell you to do this?" martin is not allowed to form his own thoughts according to the eye, according to elias someone who holds a mass amount of power above martin's head, his life, his job, everything he has going for him. martin even assumed that elias is going to threaten him with bad things about jon, someone who makes up a very small part of his life up until this point all because of how much he's been manipulated and controlled that it slowly makes him feel smaller, like the world he lives in is so much smaller then everyone else around him. it makes him insignificant. the lonely was always coming for him, because everyone else made it that way. then his mothers actions in his childhood is used as a weapon. this also shows once again how martins existence is reduced to another's. his father. his mother could only see his father but not the person he was. nobody has ever seen martin for the person he was (which honestly makes peter lukas manipulation in s4 worse - esp in MAG 159)

this could even be a commentary on fandom and queer ships (even ships in general, but queer ships do get this treatment a lot more imo) where the characters are entirely watered down to their ships instead of who they are as characters and their analysis is watered down to each other and only each other - and I see this a lot with martin, alongside characters like will graham, viktor, michael shelley, gerry keay, anya even marceline and bubblegum! characters and their valuable storytelling elements and lessons just are removed for the sake of shipping discourse.

elias is now shown to only care about jon, something VERY clear during the entirety of the show. he cares about the monster he can create with jon more than anything. elias isnt a cunty queen (even though we love to see him that way, which is totally fine) he is a monster, who wants to use and abuse whoever he can control. elias has always been on a power trip, even when he was jonah. he ability to just survive through the horrors has given him enough ego that it means he can do whatever he wants to whoever. elias has always wanted martin to be controlled outside of the eye. he wants him excluded, he wants him insecure, he never wanted him to feel this sense of inclusion just imposter syndrome. a feeling that he's forcing his way into things because that's how he wanted to design him. elias designed jon AND martin. he made them how he wanted.

elias being portrayed as a queer icon in fandom doesn't help but continue to reduce martin as a character, which honestly sucks.

martin deserves to whine and cry and be uncomfortable by the supernatural because for the entirety of his employment his been tortured by the idea that he isn't valuable unless he's being helpful. does this make him a people pleaser? not really. does this make him a damaged individual who for his entire life has been reduced to nothing but another person in his life? yes.

again this goes towards tma's themes of humanity and individuality, what makes you human but what makes you an individual? why are you different? why can you do what they can't?

[horizon-verizon]

I initially assumed the insistence on Sara Snow came from the Rhaegar and Lyanna resemblance, but then I found out it was actually about Jonsa resemblance, which makes less sense... ok you have a Stark bastard, but where does Sansa fit into all of this?

A)

The jonsa ship? Sansa stans who ship this seem to hope for Sansa to become Lady of Winterfell and be "compensated" for all her suffering in the bk or the show, and having Jon be married and/o emotionally devoted to her serves to make a moody pretty boy with skills be her commander, a la Daemon for Rhaenyra you might say. This is the priority from what I've seen so far.

It's another illicit or forbidden love as he's her brother and a bastard who her own mother who died for their older brother and them all disliked. It's also, I think, a fuck-you to GRRM's orig plan to have Jon fall for Arya not bc Arya was also his sister and even younger than Sansa, but primarily bec this, to them, places Arya as the "true" Lady of Winterfell.

I'd take a gander to say this is actually the issue and why some might say it's a Jonsa thing. Perhaps they make similar how Sansa's father has a hand in her encountering danger through her planned betrothal to Joffrey (Aerys continually endangering Rhaegar and his his family, Jon maybe in thei minds being the "cause" of Sansa/Rhaegar's family's destruction) or they posit an unwanted marriage parallel of Sansa-Tyrion and Elia-Rhaegar? There might be more, but I can't think of anything else?

B)

When you say "resemblance", do you mean to say Sara Snow x Jacaerys Velaryon as a true thing that happened, or this story of such meant to parallel the couple of Lyanna and Rhaegar? Perhaps it's the element of her also not having any hope to marry and--pursue a longer and enduring relationship due to the political circumstances--an unavailable noble man, like with Lyanna and Rhaegar? That Jace comes from a Targaryen royal lineage and Sara from a Stark one? Or is it that this ship is in close proximity to the Pact of Ice and Fire, which some people espouse had to do with the actual prophecy Aegon I is said to have had and maybe told to Torrhen Stark, the King who Knelt, that got him to surrender, and thus Creagn and Jace agreed to have their childrne marry--thus being some sort of precursor and affirmation of Lyanna-Rhaegar narratively & metaphorically "destined" to shape the history of their society throught their own singular action? That Torrhen might have already known, as others say? Which all, I believe , is an argument meant for Jon being the Prince that was promised?

Bc these latter two "ran off" bec their personalities and personal goals/values didn't jive with the "obligations" both had; those that were like stones set against their own and those around them (Lyanna with her marriage and the entire woman-must-obey thing/her being found out about being the Knight of the Laughing Tree and thus punished vs Rhaegar and the prophecy against the legacy of his house/wanting to build a different Westeros from his crazy father through said prophecy, to "fix" Westeros and/or the world in a way Dany is seemingly supposed to).

Whereas Sara Snow and Jace either don't have such obligations (Sara) or don't have such relationships or regards to their obligations (Jace). Unlike Lyanna Stark, Sara Snow--if she ever even existed. I don't think she ever did, Mushroom is Mushroom and was never there to witness what he said happened--was reported to be a bastard girl, who Cregan, her supposed brother, would never be expected to confront anyone about or for if she were to have pursued a relationship for. Precisely because she was a bastard girl who no one could leverage like Lyanna's father tried to when he betrothed her to Robert Baratheon.

Rhaegar had to leave Elia with his father when said madman ordered Elia and their kids to return to KL/the Red Keep while Rhaegar was away; he also had several "engagements" that Jace did not have a like to before the war that Rhaegar was compelled to act on, presumably for the world and not just his own father, wife, etc. Jace was just living with Rhaenyra before the war, anticipating marrying a girl he had been close woth for ages since childhood, and he was barely in his own majority when he died not so late after the war broke out.

Jace's story, unlike Rhaegar, was that he was suspected as a bastard/not his father's son and that the Westerosi stigma against bastards and their character and ability to have loyalty is unsettled by his utter devotion to his family and mother's claim--in other words, he was all in both because of and despite the logic of those rumors, ironic bec of later when Rhaenyra's compelled and unethically chooses to arrest the dragonseeds when her council basically demanded that punishment--in a way, Jace's work was…troubled by this, even with Jeyne Arryn, the Manderlys, and Cregan Stark pulling through later but too late.

In other words, the stakes are too different and the characters are not so similar for Jace to act like Rhaegar or have the room & circumstance to do so. Whether you think Rhaegar was chaotic good, chaotic evil, or just pathetic. This is also not me saying that Rhaegar wasn't devoted to his family/family's legacy, but that his motivations were layered and has a chance of being more about, again, saving the world. The Pact of Ice and Fire was bt Cregan and Jace also, again, was for their kids to marry, not Jace to marry a Stark bastard girl and disobey his mother at a time when she needed him the most.

What exactly are we meant to take away from Jace being with Sara Snow for the narrative apart and what does this contribute or explain exegetically or diegetically apart from it from the pattern of in-world speculation in F&B? Yes they share those that I listed, but they hardly have similar narratives or "points"?

[katshuya]

Rhaegar wasn't perfect to Elia. He was just complex. You people just don't get it.

Rhaegar was a poor depressed prince and a good husband and father, and his bad actions were not so bad because he was depressed. It's enough that he didn't force Elia to have a third child, so that means he was a good husband. Even though he impregnated her during recovery or immediately after recovery of six months being bed ridden and you people just don't understand complexity and that when you are in a political marriage, cheating isn't cheating.

Thank you, Rhaegar Targaryen, for not being the complete asshole you could have been. What a great husband, father, and man you were that you never ended up killing her by childbirth.

For such kindness, you deserved to go love someone else on your wife whose health was ruined further because of you and your prophecy. Nothing is wrong with cheating on your politically married wife. It's not cheating.

You all are just idiots who can't get through your heads that he did enough. I'm sorry the poor, complex man in his twenties didn't win you jerks.

So what if he got her pregnant when she was just out of recovery? He was a man with purpose! He needed to fulfill the prophecy. It was either that or she/her health forced him to find another woman. It wasn't his fault. He tried people! He tried! He needed the third baby.

And he ended up right! This child had to be from Lyanna. Jon snow is Lyanna's child. It's not so good for Elia and all the sacrifices she made, but it's what it is. Rhaegar was right. He tried with Elia. It was not his fault, he needed to save the world. Elia's humiliation and sacrifices were just small prices.

We have little evidence that there was anything romantic between him and Elia.....we also don't have an actual evidence that there was no attraction or a romance blooming but still! The point is he did enough by not killing her.

I mean we don't see Naerys or Cersie let their husbands have other women willingly just because they don't like them but so what?

Selsye also doesn't tell Stannis to go get his boy from any other woman but so what?

Most marriages in Westeros, including Ned and Cat's, were political, and some ended in love other weren't happy about their cheating husbands.

But Rhaegar was different, you idiots. He fought for his family over a war he very much had huge hand in starting it and hid with his girl for more than a year while his family were very safe at dragonstone that belongs to his mad father with all the obedient knights in there.

He was a depressed man in his tweenties who finally fell in love after less than 2 years of his political marriage that in no way was or could have ended in romance like Cat and Ned's. Let that sink in.

Rhaenys whom he left when she was less than 2 and returned when she was about 3 knew Rhaegar well and loved him! She didn't know what he did and was doing considering she was only about 3 but she loved a man that was nice to her. That is enough evidence!

So what if he wasn't perfect to Elia? He was a depressed man in his tweenties who deserved love you heartless brainless jerks. You will never get brain. See how I so smartly recognized his mistakes and that he wasn't perfect, but I still know he was complex! Likable! You people can't recognize a complex jerk character when you see one. You aren't thoughtful.

I can't believe it goes over your heads. God, this fandom is impossible.

Rhaegar and lyanna are different. They are special love story.

LOL!

[dracharenae]

The   truth   of   who   he   is   had   hit   him   like   a   bucket   of   water,cold   in   the   dead   of   winter.   Perhaps   it   hurt   as   much   as   a   stab   to   the   heart   because   it   was   another   world   shattering   realization.   He   was   not   a   bastard,   or   perhaps   he   is   and   they   just   put   a   more   accurate   title.   If   what   Lyanna   and   Rhaegar   had   had   been   love   or   kidnapping   he   will   never   know   the   truth,   despite   a   marriage   paper   having   been   found.   If   anything,   he   is   as   royal   as   Daemon   Blackfyre   had   been   legitimizated.   and   that   is   when   his   brother   tells   him   Rhaenys   Targaryen   is   arriving   in   Winterfell   for   an   alliance   and   he   finds   himself   staying   on   the   Weirdwood   tree.  

Ghost   lays   at   the   tree's   roots,   masking   with   the   snow   until   eyes   open   up   and   his   eyes   match   those   of   the   Old   Gods.   Ghost   alerts   to   the   presence   of   someone   else   and   he   knows   it's   her.   He   turns   to   look   at   her   and   he   wonders,   if   there   is   comfort   in   the   fact   he   looks   nothing   like   the   father   who   abandoned   her.   Or   there   is   little   comfort,   as   he   looks   like   the   woman   whose   name   started   a   war.   "As   long   as   you,   perhaps.   A   little   longer   maybe.   The   red   woman.   .   .she   spoke   of   tales   of   ice   and   fire   and   princes   promised.   I   always   thought   to   be   just   talk."   He   hardly   trusts   Melisandre   but   she   did   brought   him   back,   such   a   feat   something   that   don't   usually   happens.  

Only   a   few   had   been   brought   back.   He   scoffs   at   it   as   the   direwolf,   as   big   as   he   is,   stands   on   his   side,   and   seeks   to   comfort   his   distress.   "As   far   as   the   North   is   aware,   I'm   still   Ned   Stark's   bastard.   .   .but   I   cannot   hide   the   truth   from   them."   His   sisters   have   claimed   that   it   made   no   matter   to   them,   he   is   their   brother   and   the   Northerns   might   accept   him   more   to   learn   he   is   the   child   of   Lyanna.   But   would   the   same   thing   be   accepted   of   Rhaegar's   blood?   Even   if   Jon   had   proven   himself   to   be   his   own   person.   "I'm   sorry.   For   what   was   done   to   you."

༺✹༻ THE PRINCE WHO WAS PROMISED. RHAENYS FEELS a cold plunge into her chest, as if she has just been stabbed by ice itself. she remembers her father holding little aegon, the babe babbling in his arms . . . he doesn't need a song, he is the song of ice and fire, rhaegar had told her, when she had asked him if he would write her baby brother a song. rhaenys had her own songs, after all, so why not her new brother ? ? ? his answer her perplexed her, but, then again, she was so young. she was barely still a babe herself, sitting at her father's feet with little balerion curled on her lap. now her father's words ring less of gentle love than they do of madness, yet another example of it. this prince of ice and fire had never been her aegon, it had been this man. the son of rhaegar targaryen and lyanna stark, ice and fire made flesh. there is little of rhaegar to be found in him, however. funny. rhaenys is a mirror vision of elia. jon must resemble lyanna. but it had been aegon who looked the closest to their father, and it is him who is dead.

hatred fumes inside of her. rhaenys has always tried to suppress her true rage towards her father. she wanted to cling to those happy memories and believe he did, in fact, love her and her family. but jon snow is proof to the otherwise. ❝ i don't trust the lady melisandre. i don't think i can trust anyone who keeps so closely to fire . . . and so passionate in the art of burning men and women alive, ❞ rhaenys finds herself saying, a grimace forming over her lips. there is something off about the red woman. it is more than her ethereal beauty and unnatural red eyes. there is a malice and madness lurking beneath her skin. like fire.

the red woman had placed her hopes entirely in stannis baratheon. he had been her king, before she forsook him in favor of jon snow. her loyalties are fickle. and rhaenys does not believe in any god, much less the kind who require such a sacrifice from their acoloytes. ❝ and why must they know, jon snow ? ? ? ned stark kept the secret to his grave. why share it now ? ? ? ❞ her tone is curious, searching. on one hand, he's right . . . the way everything is falling apart, she imagines the secret will be unveiled one way or the other . . . best to be told from his lips. yet she cannot help but to imagine the chaos that would ensue, especially with the dragon queen beginning her role in the game of thrones. her mind, however, slips in regards to jon's following words . . . she stands in bewilderment for a moment, lips parting in surprise. and then she sighs. ❝ you are the first person to ever apologize to me . . . and yet you are perhaps the person who owes it to me the least. our father doomed both of us, jon snow, if we can even call him that. ❞

[lycanlovingvampyre]

MAG 160 Relisten

Activity on my first listen: head empty, only eyepocalypse...

Yeah, The Eye Opens doesn't sound so good... Neither does the ominous slightly different version of the Institute’s motto...

MARTIN: "I still don’t think we should have brought it." JON: "Oh, it’s better than no warning at all." Hmmm, I think one would have just turned up. Like on the ship to Norway.

JON: "Yeah, well, it technically still belongs to Daisy, so – (small exhale) I’m just glad it’s not some sort of kill room." MARTIN: "Or – (pause for a huffed laugh) Or it is, and she just cleaned it up really well." JON: (small exhale) "Yes." MARTIN: "Are we? – Are we… safe here?" JON: (sigh) "Safe as anywhere. If Elias wanted to find us, I imagine he could, but – I doubt the police will be able to. If nothing else, I’m hoping there’d be some – jurisdiction complications, in Scotland?" I always love how there just happens to be a conversation that tells us where they are (or what object this is about etc.)

MARTIN: "And if she does?" JON: (exhale) "Well. At least we’ll know where she is." And here's the information that we lost Daisy :( Gone full Hunt.

JON: (teasing) "Anyways, don’t tell me the phonebox down there doesn’t appeal to your retro aesthetic." MARTIN: "It – might. Maybe." Ahhhh, the teasing!!!

MARTIN: "You’ll be okay here?" JON: "I’ll be fine." It's so soft...

MARTIN: "I mean, they’ve finished all the interviews? Apparently they’re calling it a 'terror attack.'" From what Basira said in MAG 158 ("From what I saw they’ve been toying with the rest of the Institute, but it won’t be long until they’re all dead or escaped.") I'd call that a proper killing spree.

MARTIN: "And she wasn’t sure which ones you’ve read already, so she, she just said she’d send a bunch." JON: ""There – There are tapes in here, as well. D-Did she say anything about tapes?" MARTIN: "She didn’t mention it? – But I didn’t check it until after the call." Do you know how long it took me to realize these are not the statements Basira sent xD I thought Elias smuggled his statement to the obvious stack of statements in the Archives and Basira grabbed it with the others and sent that... Yeah, it does make a lot more sense for Elias to simply watch Basira and then express-mail his own welcome-back package.

MARTIN: "– I will give you some privacy. Go for a walk." JON: (exhale) "Let me know if you see any good cows." MARTIN: "Obviously I’m going to tell you if I see any good cows." Famous last words... Love how it sounds there has been something going on with them defining "good cows". Already told this little story in the tags of one of the MAG 160 art reblogs: last year my spouse said they're going for a walk and I know there's a route past a field of highland cattle. So I asked them where they're going and it was this exact route! Of course I asked them to tell me if they see any good cows xD The world didn't end and I got a photo of highland cows!

Overall impression of these two scenes: Their conversations are so normal... They really are okay here. At least, how far we can tell from what little we have. I'm sure I already said this in one of my relisten posts, I think it's really good for the fandom to have so little. Yeah, of course I would have loved more fluff, but by keeping this so short, there's sooo much we fans can imagine happening here. TMA has a lot of this, referencing vaguely what happened, but keeping it open for us to explore that. This is actually also very good for the horrors in the show. It’s a genre I respond very well to. Keeping it vague, let my mind do the rest. Fucking love this shit.

JON: "Right. Statement of Hazel Rutter regarding a fire in her childhood home. Original statement given August 9th, 1992." OMG, I remember exactly, what my reaction to this was. I was like "What bullshit statement for a season finale is that supposed to be???"

JON: "Hello, Jon. Apologies for the deception, but I wanted to make sure you started reading, so I thought it best not to announce myself." And then I was "Oh SHIT!" Also, I always forget it's Jon reading this statement because Jonny's impression of Ben's Elias is sooo good! So this is Jonny pretending to be Ben pretending to be Elias by copying Jonny pretending to be Jon, all while still pretending to be Jon... I hope that makes sense... Also I used this sentence one time for a friend! She doesn't really like horror because she's easily scared, but she did listen to all of TMA for me. And I had a very cool and really creepy nightmare which just happened to include one of my cats and I wanted to tell her what happened in this nightmare. But it was also almost midnight and I knew she just wouldn't read my text if she immediately had recognized it as a nightmare. So I started to retell it by focusing on my cat only to hit her with the creepy stuff in the last sentence. She texted me "I hate u" back xD and a week later we talked about this via Twitch chat during a stream of our friend’s and she was like "I thought it was a cute cat dream!" and I answered "Yeah, I knew you would stop reading if it would have been too obvious... Hello *friend's name*. Apologies for the deception but I wanted to make sure you started reading..." We both laughed so much xD

So uh, I already made a post about this once, but I'm putting that thought in here again. The case numbers of the statements are always in the episode descriptions (here 0181810 - a palindrome!!! - 18th October 2018). These case numbers always refer to the date the statement was first given, either written or recorded directly. This is a written statement, so teeeeeechnically 18th October was the day Jonah wrote this statement, and not the day Jon read it. I do think this one episode is an exception of this rule, but hear me out for a moment: If 18th October was only the day Jonah wrote this, this could mean for Jmart to have more time for their Scottish honeymoon!!!

"but that you would quite willingly doom that world and confine the billions in it to an eternity of terror and suffering, all to ensure your own happiness" Capitalism is the real enemy!

"I once asked her what drove her, what had started her down that path. She told me the Desolation had killed her cat." Understandable, have a nice day! (Gertrude is John Wick...)

"You see, the thing about the Fears is that they can never be truly separated from each other. When does the fear of sudden violence transition into the fear of hunted prey? When does the mask of the Stranger become the deception of the Spiral?" Yeeees, like colors! They're all part of the same light! I love how everything that seemed like a plot hole in TMA actually has an explanation!

"It does tickle me, that in this world of would-be occult dynasties and ageless monsters, the Chosen One is simply that – someone I chose. It’s not in your blood, or your soul, or your destiny. It’s just in your own, rotten luck." And in the next few sentences he'll say "Oh wow, that one is marked by the Spider! Must be their blessing to send me someone already with that destiny!"...

"How is Martin, by the way? He looks well. You will keep an eye on him when all this is over, won’t you? He’s earned that." Jonah!Elias ships them XD

"And there, I think, we are brought just about up to date." I have listened to the episode starting this sentence soooo many times!

Ahhh, the soundscaping during the incantation is so good!

JON: (still distorted, with shaking laughter/tears) "Look at the sky, Martin. Look at the sky. It’s looking back." [AND NOW HE DOES BEGIN TO LAUGH IN EARNEST. IT’S NOT A LAUGH WE’VE HEARD ON HIM BEFORE; NOT A SHORT, CLIPPED LAUGH; NOT A SURPRISE BURST OF GENUINE HILARITY. THIS LAUGH SEEMS AFRAID, AND YET COLD. IT’S REMINISCENT OF ELIAS’S VILLAINOUS LAUGH, BUT IS TINGED MORE WITH FEAR THAN SATISFACTION.] [HE DOES NOT STOP LAUGHING.] That was it. I thought now he lost it. Completely. I was asking myself if he could pull it together next season, or if he'll be full crazy monster. And I totally felt that shock of “Oh no, this really happened. Everything is ruined. How can this progress? How can this every be undone??” I really, reaaally felt Jon and Martin’s (mostly Martin’s perhaps) emotions there at the end...

A few random thoughts at the end here, while I don't remember my surroundings listening to this episode. I remember being in the bedroom at the end of this episode. Like specifically that thought of Jon "going crazy".

I think it's funny how MAG 160 fanart is either super sweet Jmart or total devastation of the world ending. And memes. Lot’s of memes.

Fun fact: My father in law finished S4 today as well!!! He never struck me to be a person who'd be doing a relisten, which I found a bit sad because there is so much to discover in a relisten. BUT he said he's thinking about doing a relisten right now already xD This episode is always my most anticipated one when wanting friends and family live-blog their experience to me xD

@a-mag-a-day

[catofadifferentcolor]

Terrible Fic Ideas #5: The White Princess, but make it GoT

I have a terrible weakness for female!Jon Snow fics - mostly because making the character female gives a fascinating array of opportunities to unite two rival claims to the Iron Throne and all the drama that involves. So what about a fic where the people with the strongest claim to the throne - female!Jon Snow and Robert Baratheon - end up married?

aka the Queen Mother fic

Hear me out:

Much as Elizabeth of York objectively had a better claim to the throne than her husband, Henry VII, a female!Jon Snow (called Joanna from here on out) would have the Targaryen bloodline claim but no chance of getting on the throne herself even if she wasn't presented to the world as her uncle's bastard. Westeros doesn't abide female rulers.

But if you marry her bloodline claim to the man with the next best claim - her second cousin once removed, Robert Baratheon, who's actually got the throne - you have the strongest of any possible claim. One which could make the greatest number of factions happy, if only they knew about it.

But how to make it happen? It's easy to imagine Robert trying to take Joanna to bed, as she resembles her mother a great deal, but how to make it a legal union? I see two options:

One: In the aftermath of the Greyjoy Rebellion, Robert heads north, sees 14 year old Joanna looking the image of his lost love, and pulls out some ancient Targaryen law that lets the king have two wives. No one is particularly thrilled with this idea except for Robert, but he's the king and the most optimistic hope it will turn down his whoring. Or,

Two: In the aftermath of the Greyjoy Rebellion, Robert heads north after Cersei has been found in the act of adultery while he was at war, and seeing Joanna the image of his lost love demands they marry on the spot. No one's particularly happy with this scenario either, but at least it's not bigamy.

Either way, Joanna ends up in Kings Landing as a/the Queen and because Robert is his usual lusty self, winds up with a son in short order. If it Cersei's still in the picture, there's a lot of politicking and worry for her life and that of her child. If Cersei's gone, there's still politicking but with whatever Lannisters remain upset her child is replacing their prince, who they claim is legitimate still.

Sometime while she's still a relatively young bride of 16 or 17, while she's about halfway through her second pregnancy, Robert dies like in the book, and Joanna ends up the regent to her young son, the new king. There's a regency council of course, but she has more power than one might think at first glance.

The truth of her ancestry is never really announced so much as quietly discovered by multiple parties in multiple ways, who quietly go along with it because it suits their needs/politics/etc. Eventually the various parties wonder why everyone else is going along with it too, and after some poking it just sort of... comes out. It doesn't change anything, because inheritance puts her son's claim before her own, but it helps the last of her detractors.

As a side plot, Prince Oberyn comes to Kings Landing to swear Dorne's allegiance to the new king on his brother's behalf and strikes up a flirtation with Joanna. At first that's all it is, especially as she's just about to birth her second child, but they end up forming an odd friendship. Joanna likes Dorne and how they treat their bastards, and Dorne likes her because they think her mother was one of theirs. After 2 or 3 years of this, they marry. It's part political - draws in Dorne, helps make up for Elia's murder, and gives Joanna and her son a loyal defender - and part a love match - they get along and Joanna begrudges Oberyn his paramours no more than she'd begrudged Robert.

That's all I really have, but the idea tickles me. So feel free to borrow it, just link me if you ever do anything with it.

More GOT Ideas | More Terrible Fic Ideas

[bluejayblueskies]

Please say more abt how Martin fits the closed off trait I'm begging 👁👁

Okay, so I got a bit carried away with this and it got quite lengthy....

I've put a TLDR above the cut and the details, transcripts, and general discussion below the cut!

.

TLDR: Martin is at his core a closed-off character who keeps his vulnerable feelings hidden and close to his chest. He instead focuses on caring for others and considering their feelings above his own, particularly in the case of Jon, who he cares for (sometimes to the point of self-sacrifice) throughout the podcast. His arc with the Lonely in season four and his interactions with Jon in season five demonstrate this lack of emotional vulnerability, and it's really only during the moments he spends by himself that we get significant insight into Martin's emotional state and inner thoughts.

.

Martin, to me, is a character who is very used to hiding how he feels. He tends to care for others at the expense of himself, has low self-esteem, and has a predilection towards the Lonely, all of which go hand-in-hand with somebody who is very used to hiding their emotions--particularly the negative ones--because they either think they're not important or that they're inconvenient and inappropriate for the situation. On a textual level, that's probably due to growing up with a sick (and likely unsupportive) mother who he had to take care of, where there was 'no time' for his emotions to get in the way or for him to prioritize himself in any way, shape, or form.

Martin is self-destructive, dislikes moments of emotional vulnerability, and (I would argue) genuinely struggles when he doesn't have somebody else to prioritize over himself. (His mother at first, but as the series goes on, Jon settles comfortably into this role for him.) Additionally, the biggest way that we, the audience, know anything about Martin's emotional state is when he's alone and self-reflecting (such as in MAG 170 and 186 or when talking to the tapes) or when he's forced to talk about something vulnerable (such as when Jon confronted him about his CV).

We don't get much insight into Martin's character between seasons one and three (at least not as much as we get in four and five), but I find myself drawn to this bit in MAG 118, when Martin is talking to Elias:

MARTIN

So what? I don’t get to be angry? I don’t get to burn things? Just, just run around, making tea, while everyone else gets to actually have feelings?

I think two things are important to note here. The first is that Elias is surprised (or least intrigued) that Martin is acting in this way--specifically, acting on his emotions in such a dramatic way. (And given that Martin is doing this as a distraction, rather than actually acting out because of his own emotions, maybe he's right to be surprised.) The second is that this line very much implies that Martin doesn't talk about how he's feeling, not like 'everyone else' does. He doesn't talk about it, doesn't act on it--just 'runs around, making tea.' And when Melanie comes back in after Elias is done, Martin immediately focuses on the plan and whether it succeeded, ignoring Melanie when she asks if he's okay or not. He closes himself off, and as far as we know, doesn't talk about it at all after that.

And then Jon goes into his coma, and we reach season four.

Martin is incredibly closed-off during season four. He's self-isolating, self-sacrificial, and approaching a state of genuine emotional numbness by the time he's cast into the Lonely. There's a lot to unpack there, but I'm going to focus on a few main things, many of which can be drawn from this bit in MAG 158:

MARTIN

It’s not him! It’s not anybody. It’s just me. Always has been. I…

When I first came to you, I thought I had lost everything. Jon was dead, my mother was dead, the job I had put everything into trapped me into spreading evil and I… I really didn’t care what happened to me. I told myself I was trying to protect the others, but… honestly we didn’t even like each other. Maybe I just thought joining up with you would be a good way to get killed.

And then… Jon came back, and… and suddenly I had a reason I had to keep your attention on me. Make you feel in control so you didn’t take it out on him. And if that meant drifting further away, so what? I’d already grieved for him. And if it meant now saving him, it was worth it.

When you started talking about the Extinction, though… you had me actually, then, for a while. But then – (laughs sardonically) then, you tried to make me the hero. Tried to sell me on the idea that I was the only one who could stop it. And that I’ve never sat right with me. I mean, I mean, look – look at me, I’m not exactly a – a chosen one. But by then I was in too deep. So I played along. Waited to see what your end game was, and here we are.

Funny. Looks like I was right the first time. It’s probably still a good way to get killed?

This monologue is a big insight into Martin's thought process during this season, and I'm mostly going to focus on two parts: the self-sacrifice and the prioritization of Jon.

Self-sacrifice

There's quite a bit of discussion about Jon's self-sacrificial tendencies, but less so about Martin's, both in this season and in season five. In my opinion, Jon's self-sacrificial tendencies originate from (among other things) survivor's guilt from his traumatic childhood experience with Mr. Spider, his increasing belief that he's less than human, and the fact that he prioritizes the lives of others over his own. Martin's self-sacrificial tendencies, while very similar, come from the fact that he thinks he only has worth if he can help and care for someone else and the fact that he doesn't think he's important enough to live. (For example, he says in MAG 158 that he's 'not exactly a chosen one' and says in MAG 198 that he's 'not important enough to kill.')

It's a subtle difference between these two things, and I would argue that while Jon's tendencies are more rooted in the 'help' (ie, 'I want to help other people and I will sacrifice myself to do it'), Martin's tendencies are more rooted in the 'hurt' (ie, 'I will sacrifice myself and other people will be helped in the process'). There is, of course, overlap, and it's not a black-and-white distinction between the two, but ultimately, I think Martin is so used to prioritizing others' emotions and needs above his own that when he's left mostly alone as he is at the end of season three, with the only person left to hold onto being in a coma (possibly forever), he falls back into the same patterns of self-destruction and closed-offness, only without the 'help' to go along with the 'hurt' because there is nobody left to help (especially after his mother dies). Ultimately, he joins up with Peter because he thinks it 'would be a good way to get killed.'

Prioritization of Jon

But then Jon wakes up from his coma, and now Martin has justification for his self-sacrifice again, because he can protect Jon by continuing to work with Peter!

... Maybe.

Jon isn't harmed by Peter during season four, sure, but he does climb into the coffin and visits Ny-Ålesund and is tracked down by Julia and Trevor and struggles emotionally and morally with his own humanity and is hurt, in a way, by the distance Martin puts between them. And I hesitate to place blame for the apocalypse on anybody but Jonah, but if we're going to argue in-canon that Jon was responsible for the apocalypse (he wasn't, but that's not the point of this post), then Martin contributed to that blame and responsibility because it was his actions and decisions that ultimately drew Jon into the Lonely and resulted in him getting the 14th and final mark. (Again, I don't think Jon or Martin are at fault for the apocalypse, but if we were to blame Jon, we could blame Martin as well.) It was only after getting that mark that Jonah was able to use Jon to end the world, something that was hugely hurtful for Jon. So did Martin really protect Jon at all by staying away from him and continuing to work with Peter? Or was that just a convenient excuse to keep self-destructing?

Jon and Martin, in my opinion, had very similar arcs in season four. Martin was sinking further into the Lonely and Jon was sinking further into the Eye. We hear a lot more about Jon's emotional struggle with this given that he's the POV character, sure, but Jon also talks about this with other people. He talks about it to Helen (MAG 152):

JON

…

When does it stop?

HELEN

(impatient) What?

JON

The guilt. The misery. All the others I’ve met, they’ve been – cold, cruel. They’ve enjoyed what they do. When does the Eye (inhale) make me monstrous?

And to Daisy (MAG 136):

JON

My – (large sigh) My memories of the coma are not clear, but I know I made a choice; I made a choice to become… something else. Because I was afraid to die. But ever since then, I – I don’t know if I made the right decision; I’m stronger now, tougher, I can – (he cuts himself off) If I do die, now, or get sealed away somewhere forever? I don’t know if that’s a bad thing. And I don’t want to lose anyone else, so if I can maybe – stop that happening, and the only danger is to me, I – I’ll do it in a heartbeat; worst case scenario, the universe loses another monster.

But all we really get from Martin are the things he tells the tapes when he's alone and the monologue he gives in MAG 158. It makes sense that he wouldn't be as open, yes, given the nature of the Lonely, but I can't help but think of (MAG 154):

JON

The Lonely’s really got you, hasn’t it?

MARTIN

(no hesitation) You know, I think it always did.

Jon was always curious and hungry for knowledge; the Eye amplified it. Martin was always closed-off and isolated; the Lonely amplified that as well.

But then Jon pulls Martin out of the Lonely, they flee to the safehouse, and three weeks later, the apocalypse begins. Martin isn't as consumed by the Lonely as he was in season four, he's with Jon--the person he loves--for extended periods of time, and they're in an extremely stressful situation that's sure to be incredibly emotionally charged. There's a lot to be said about Jon's emotional vulnerability during season five and how Martin both pressures him for it and rejects it in different ways, but for the purposes of this post, I won't go too far into detail about the motivations behind how Jon is feeling and acting.

I will say, however, that in season five, Martin still continues to place a lot of focus on asking Jon how he's feeling, encouraging (or pressuring) him to share, and getting frustrated when Jon can't or doesn't (MAG 167):

MARTIN

Okay, so how exactly would you describe your current emotional state regarding all of this?

JON

I –

MARTIN

(overlapping) Go on, I’m all ears.

JON

I feel…

MARTIN

(go on) Mhm.

JON

(sigh) I feel… sad.

[Brief pause.] MARTIN

(flat) Sad.

JON

Very sad.

MARTIN

(*very* flat) Very sad.

[He sighs slightly as he says it. Their bags jangle.]

A few moments prior to this, Martin expresses displeasure that Jon is Knowing things about him, specifically pointing out his emotions (MAG 167):

MARTIN

It’s just – it’s weird knowing that you can know literally everything I think and feel. E-Especially since you’re not exactly the most open of people – emotionally, I mean.

I think Martin is making an effort to open up more to Jon. But I still think it's difficult for him to talk about how he feels so openly, and while he is completely in the right for not wanting Jon to Know things about him without his permission, I think it's interesting that the focus is on his feelings and that he brings up how Jon isn't emotionally open immediately after. It scares Martin to think that Jon could know, at any given moment, how he's feeling, and I think it's partially because he's not used to that level of vulnerability. He turns the focus on Jon, away from himself, and doesn't really make an effort to talk about how he's feeling about all of this, instead prioritizing Jon's feelings and mental state like he's grown comfortable with.

And when Martin bottles up his emotions--of which there are a lot, in such a stressful environment, they can explode out in hurtful ways:

MARTIN

(overlapping) I know! I know, okay, I just – (bracing exhale) Look, I j,just – don’t want to get burned, all right? It’s, it’s like my least favorite pain ever.

JON

Is that – a joke?

MARTIN

(a bit faster, a bit shaky) No, no, okay? I, I legitimately hate burns, alright? They’re, they’re awful, and they scar horribly, and they just – it – it just makes me sick; I, I hate it. Hate it!

I don't think Martin really thought about what he was saying when he told Jon, who has a large burn scar on his hand, that burn scars make him sick, and I don't think he meant it maliciously. But he'd spent the greater portion of the conversation talking around the fact that he didn't like burns and that was why he didn't want to go into the building, and so when it finally ended up coming out, it did so in an explosion of emotion rather than a conscious decision to share. Martin doesn't have a good handle on his emotions, and he doesn't have a good handle on sharing them.

(Is it too much for me to say that Martin was more emotionally vulnerable with himself in MAG 170 than he was with Jon when Jon finally found him?)

Throughout season five, Martin asks Jon questions, he expresses frustrations with Jon, he shows discomfort or fear at times, but for as much as Martin feels frustrated that Jon isn't talking about how he feels about their situation, Martin really isn't doing so either. The most he talks about his feelings is in MAG 170 and MAG 186, when he's by himself, and I remember MAG 186 in particular because before that, we really didn't know what Martin was thinking about for the majority of the season! And in this episode, we find out a lot of very important things about Martin's character. Like (MAG 186):

ALSO MARTIN

Look, I know what you know. Maybe I’m just a bit more… open about it.

Also-Martin acknowledges that Martin often doesn't say what he means and hides what he really feels, telling him that it's 'hard to be vulnerable,' and Martin is initially very resistant to the idea. And then, when Also-Martin suggests that Martin wants to stay so that he can be 'quietly sad,' we get (MAG 186):

MARTIN

We could talk to Jon about it.

ALSO MARTIN

We could. But we both know that loved ones make the worst therapists. They’re too wrapped up in trying to stop you hurting to actually help. But hey, we know all about that, am I right?

MARTIN

There’s nothing wrong with comforting people.

ALSO MARTIN

A cup of tea isn’t a resolution. At best it’s a… a plaster. At worst… a muzzle.

This is very interesting to me, because for all that Martin tries to help other people, he also believes that comfort doesn't always help and that you can't be your loved one's 'therapist.' I think this gives a lot of insight into why Martin doesn't share his emotions with the people he cares about, especially Jon; he doesn't want to put Jon in the position where he'll become his 'therapist,' and he doesn't necessarily think Jon can help. So instead, Martin just chooses not to be vulnerable at all, because he doesn't want to burden the people he cares about. But, when it's just him (MAG 186):

ALSO MARTIN

Don’t lie. You don’t need to. Not here. It’s just us.

He doesn't feel like he needs to pull his emotional punches. He can't accidentally hurt somebody or put them in an awkward position; it's just himself. But what's said to himself remains with himself, and (at least on tape), he doesn't discuss any of this with Jon. Not even the bit about, if it came down to it, Martin would have rather had Jon smite him than continue to rule over a domain. He goes right back to being closed-off around Jon, but now we, the audience, know what lies underneath, and how little of it reaches the surface.

In fact, the thing Martin's probably most vocal about is how Jon's feelings about himself bother him (MAG 199):

MARTIN

I guess that’s why it really bothers me, you know? I try, but I can’t actually imagine ever making a decision that I knew meant losing you.

And it… It hurts to know you can.

And I think he has a tendency to use anger and frustration to cover up hurt, shying away from the admission that something Jon's done has hurt him (an incredibly vulnerable thing) and instead relying on the less-vulnerable and more external anger to cover it. This is more speculation than true analysis, but I think that's a lot of what's happening in MAG 200, when he discovers that Jon has already assumed the position of the pupil and has, in Martin's eyes, broken his promise.

.

TLDR: Martin is at his core a closed-off character who keeps his vulnerable feelings hidden and close to his chest. He instead focuses on caring for others and considering their feelings above his own, particularly in the case of Jon, who he cares for (sometimes to the point of self-sacrifice) throughout the podcast. His arc with the Lonely in season four and his interactions with Jon in season five demonstrate this lack of emotional vulnerability, and it's really only during the moments he spends by himself that we get significant insight into Martin's emotional state and inner thoughts.

[lnakoi]

Everyone talks about how Martin and Jon are the only ones out of the og archives crew to live throughout the series that's straight up not true. MARTIN was the only one out of the og archives crew to live. Jon is hanging out by a the worlds most spooky thread. Without the powers of paranormal immunity he would be dead. Which brings me to my point...

Hello, Reader. Apologies for the deception but I wanted to make sure you started reading, so I thought it best not to announce myself. You see the real reason behind this is for me to give My Opinion on who/how the archives og4 would survive on an island abandoned and how they might perish on that island. So content warning for their hypothetical death(s)

1. Jon. Look, my guy is so pathetic (affectionate) he would be the first to freak out and the first to die. They would either forget to find food or collapse from heat. Look I love Jon but try to tell me he can’t walk up multiple flights of stairs without being out of breathe. He might do fine with other people with him. He can think of a plan if needed but it varies from situation to situation. I also think it depends on who they are paired with that really determines if he would survive or not.

2. Tim would live for a WHILE while depending on the climate of the island he may do better or worse but Tim how experience outdoors and is a generally fit guy in my mind. Maybe not abs for days but he can handle a hike. I think that he would be resourceful enough to live for a while and if I had to choose what I think would be what gets him on this mystery island I would say he would eat something bad. Either not cooked enough or (what i think would be more likely) a wrong type of berry situation. If he was paired with Jon I think Jon would live. 

3. Sasha was the kid to buy the survival books in the book fair. She is PREPARED and READY. She might not be the most athletic but she IS the type to go on walks or runs daily so she has the physical stamina. She is also stubborn enough to be more mad at the situation than sad. She would be able to keep anyone with her alive and maybe leaving them a bit more exhausted then they would be otherwise even with being stranded on an island. I think if she would die it would be because of animals in the area (if their are any) or injures from anything. If she was in a group she would be voted to be in charge.

4. Martin would panic and be so stressed the entire time. He would be able to handle himself for the most part. He would try anything for whatever outcome multiple times but he would give up on that particular strategy. So he would move on until he knew what worked best and made a routine. He also would go out of his way to avoid killing animals unless he absolutely had to. I think if he was paired with someone else he would try harder for the both of them. He would do the same in a group. If he was paired with Tim or Sasha he would go along with them (it would work out better for his mental health though he would feel guilty from time to time) but he would work as an equal with Jon and Jon would drive him just insane enough to stay mentally sound (besides the exhaustion of just being there). He would probably have the same downfalls as Jon. More likely the heat exhaustion though.

Lists on how they would be saved

- A fire/smoke they started would be spotted from the air or see whether a fire was lit for the purpose of being spotted with it (sasha) or by coincidence (Jon, Tim, Martin)

- Building a boat! (As a group)

- Message in a bottle and it is received relatively quickly (Tim)

- H-E-L-P written out largely for planes (all of them because it was in a book/movie they’ve seen)

- Peter Lukas because Elias needs them to work

[i-want-it-on-fire]

Not sure how coherent this is going to be, but I have had Some Thoughts™ that have been pinging around in my head for a while now, but I'm still not sure how to properly articulate them.

You know what fucks me up about the final episode and about Jon's character arc in general? Agency. Like I haven't actually seen a lot of meta about the finale or reactions to it, but I know one of mine was "Jon wtf omg why" which was immediately followed by "oh wait oh no of course he fucking did this, this is so sad." Because something that's always fucked me up about him is how little choice he's had in anything that's happened to him during the show and just how cruel other characters are to him about that from the very beginning.

Season 3 is a notable example when Elias (I can't call him Jonah, it feels wrong lmao) tells Jon that maybe he never wanted to be an avatar/the Archivist but he "absolutely did choose it." Which is such a horrible thing to say to someone (especially someone you are actively manipulating into being your doomsday device.) There might be others, which I'll probably go back and find if I choose to write a full essay on this.

And the cruelty of Jon's whole situation really stood out to me with Annabelle's "and then we took his voice" comment. Because that's an extremely loaded sentence. The Web literally used his voice to construct its escape plan, but it also took away any agency or say Jon had in what was happening to him or the people around him. It took his voice both literally AND figuratively, and based on his immediate reaction to that statement, I don't think that was lost on him.

Jon's entire journey during this podcast (even his entire life if you want to take what Annabelle said at face value) has been one big chess game played by things bigger than him that absolutely do not care about him as a person. His whole life has been a charade leading up to this moment: ending the world, and then potentially ending it for other worlds as well. And at every turn the people orchestrating it have taunted him with the fact that he can't do anything about it.

Like...how fucked up is that?

I wondered in the moment why he would go behind everyone's backs (Martin's ESPECIALLY) like that at the end, but when I thought about it for more than a second I realized there's nothing else he could have done. That was his last opportunity to have any say in what happened to him, the world, or the Fears, and because of all the trauma he's been through and never really had the chance to recover from, of course he decided he wasn't going to let this kind of thing happen to anyone else, even if it meant betraying the people he loved and dooming his world all over again.

And I think what makes it worse is that I don't think anyone else ever really understood how much making that choice mattered to him, even if it wasn't the "right" one (though we could argue all day about which choice was the "right" one in that scenario. I would argue there wasn't one.) And I think part of the tragedy is that had Jon been better at reaching out to other people throughout the course of the series or had people reached out to him more, this may not have happened. And because of everything that happened to these characters, the ways in which it happened, and how they all reacted to it, I'm not sure how capable any of them were of doing that.

It's easy to judge people for how they respond to trauma when you're not in the thick of it, but when you're stuck in the middle of a horrible situation like that? Sometimes you feel like all you can do is try to survive. Trauma makes you feel like, well...like you have no agency. And sometimes it's impossible to know what exactly is going to be the thing that pulls you out of it and into a healthier place (though not being trapped in an eldritch library designed to feed people to evil gods probably would have helped.) The tragedy is that Jon's situation and the situation of everyone else around him feels like it could have been prevented, but it became so tangled and messy that it's impossible to say that fixing just one thing would have stopped it, and if you follow those threads long enough, you start to wonder if it could have been stopped at all.

[buildoblivion]

I've been thinking a lot about mag 81 recently. Specifically, I've been wondering how much we as the audience knowing about "a guest for mr spider" colours our perspective of Jon as a person throughout the rest of tma.

Because I have chronic "must like the protagonist" syndrome, I've always personally had a soft spot for Jon even before we see a more vulnerable side of him in s3. But I can't deny that hearing his tragic backstory was a game-changer in how much I really empathized and understood him for the rest of the show.

There's that post on here somewhere about how hearing about his childhood, finding out he was an orphan, raised by a distant but dutiful at best, neglectful and bitter at worst grandmother, and then went through truly supernatural levels of trauma and guilt on top of that doesn't necessarily excuse his more dickish tendencies in s1 and 2, but it sure does help us understand him. The number of times I relisten to that ep and go "oh that's why you are the way that you are", and then go back further to s1 and s2 with episodes like mag 4 ("Page Turner") and mag 16 ("Arachnophobia") and go like "... ooooohhhhh I am very very sad".

Like we know from s1 that Jon's scepticism is a coping mechanism. We know that he cares about his assistants and does all sorts of human things like stuttering when he's scared and forming attachments to cool goth kids who also hate Leitners. But mag 81 adds a whole new level to that. "A guest for mr spider" really does peel back the tape to see a whole person who has been very very afraid and very very alone for a long time. Add on top of that the fact we meet Georgie and get to hear what a "weird ex-boyfriend who stress cleans and loves cats" Jon sounds like, the episode is perfect.

But we're the only ones who get to hear all that. Jon never brings up "mr spider" to anyone else and the only other character who brings it up is fucking Jonah when he gloats about how the web marked Jon for him as he forces him to end the world.

No one else knows! They don't get to see like us how Jon has been tied up in this before he lost all his baby teeth. They don't get to see how he's been carrying the guilt for the death of a bully more than twice his age and has been so very scared that one day whatever got him might come back and finish the job.

And then I think about s3 and s4, where pretty much all of Jon's allies either start to or double down on hating him, blaming him for the way their lives have all gone to shit and berating him for not making the right choices. When we know that the "choice" that set Jon down this path was opening a children's picture book.

I don't know. I just wonder how different our view of Jon might be if we didn't know how far back this all went. If we'd just heard him talk with Georgie, and skipped straight on to Elias sending the statements and let the story go from there? Sure we'd see the tragic hot mess that Jon was in s3 onwards as he desperately tries to do right by everyone else, but would we really appreciate how little agency Jon really had? What if Jon's backstory hadn't been revealed till late series four, or five even when other characters get a broad sense that the web had "marked" Jon for something but little more than that?

I know half of what makes tma so great is this handling of perspective, and that long "Chekov's gun" about mr spider finally being let off in s5 is what makes the end reveal about hilltop road etc. so impactful. Would the ending be so tragic if we didn't have all this time with the knowledge that Jon's first mark was the spider? But I think about how from pretty much the whole rest of the cast's perspective that's how it goes.  They have no idea how far these webs are actually tied around Jon, let alone how much his life really was tragic even before he stepped foot in the magnus institute.

And yet I can't imagine Jon ever telling any of them (except perhaps Martin maybe? Idk I always imagined Jon told him in the safehouse but that's just me). Why would he reveal it? When?  He’s not an open, sharing person like that, and he doesn't really understand the nature of his upbringing and the true gravity of what happened to him until it's far too late.

And in a story about knowledge, the consequences of seeking it and the tragedy of withholding it, I wonder how different it might have been if perhaps that tape went astray, or maybe one night there was just a little too much wine and it all came spilling out.

I don't think it would have "fixed" anything, but maybe it might have taken longer before Jon was cursed as a "monster", maybe Jon would not be so quick to believe it? Maybe he might have had a few more allies before it all came crashing down. 

[theskywaslookingback]

tma fic recs please ? 🤲🏽

Oooooo yes! I never get asks like this, thank you!

[my tumblr fic recs tag is here for browsing]

I had to put it under a cut because it got...entirely too long barely half an hour into making it, sorry.

Under 5k

means of cartharsis by orphan_account [G] [965]

“You’d think – you’d that at this point nightmares would be second nature for me, hm?” Martin says, forcing a smile even as he tugs the blanket tighter around his trembling shoulders.

It’s meant to be a bit funny. Instead of laughing, though, Jon frowns.

“No,” he says simply, and matter-of-factly wipes the moisture from Martin’s cheeks with a tissue like he’s a crying child.

A Proper Sleepover by Goodluckdetective (scorpiantales) [T] [1.4k]

In a different world, one where Elias is not waiting for them outside the Lonely, everyone has a chance to savor a moment of respite. As much as they can get these days. If only to talk about things that long need to be spoken.

“Basira says we should all sleep in the same room tonight,” Jon says without looking up. “Safer. So we can keep an eye out for intruders and also each other.”

“So we’re having a proper sleepover then?”

Jon scoffs. “Technically we’ve been having a proper one for months.”

where i go, when i go there by rainny_days [T] [1.7k]

Martin wants Jon to hold his hand. Martin doesn't want Jon to hold his hand.

It's complicated.

all the other ways by AptlyNamed [G] [2.2k]

Jon loses his first soul mark when he is eight years old.

a palace from ruin by bibliocratic [G] [2.2k]

"What're you sorry for?” Martin asks.

“I should have asked,” Jon says finally. “I'd never.... you were always so private about him, so I mean, at first I wasn't sure he was even yours, but then – when you, when you went with Peter, and I – he was so small, and I thought he was h-half-dead. S-so I picked him up and I carried him. And I'm sorry.”

interiors by doomcountry [T] [2.7k]

In the doorway, he fumbles with his keys. Their sound is loud in the silent stairwell. You don’t remember getting here.

searching for a light (for a right) by Kalgalen [T] [2.7k]

Some people make the mistake of assuming he's naive about sex, for the simple reason he hasn't dated in a while. Tim has called him a prude, at one point, and implied that he was somehow afraid of the intimacy required by the act; he wasn’t entirely wrong, but this definitely isn’t the reason for Jon's disinterest and general bafflement toward what most people seemed to consider as "what makes them human".

Jon simply hasn't found the right person. That is all it is: high standards, and a reticence to let people in.

(In which Jon finds out society is wrong about what a romantic relationship should be.)

how to plant a garden in rocky soil by treeprince [T] [2.9k]

Sometimes you just need a good pair of hands to work out all the kinks in your life.

Good thing Martin has two.

A Weather In The Flesh by cuttooth [G] [3k]

"There is a span of years where Jon doesn’t touch anyone other than the occasional hand shake. It’s not so bad. He’s never been someone who’s needed physical affection."

*

Jon has never been any good at making people want to stick around.

I'll bring the motion by callmearctus [T] [3.1k]

A long series of kidnappings and international flights leaves its own special mark on someone. Before the Unknowing, Jon is a mess.

Martin helps.

A Bread Made In Heaven by Againstme [G] [3.3k]

Martin moves over and watches how his boyfriend handles the dough. He's awkward with it, tentative and gentle, as if he's scared of hurting it somehow.

"Is this, uh, am I doing this right?" Jon asks, still slowly stretching out the dough and folding it onto itself.

"Well," he says shifting closer to Jon again, "you could be applying more pressure. Here, let me help you out, dear."

Martin moves fully behind Jon, and reaches around him, putting his hands on top of his boyfriend's. Jon inhales sharply, but doesn't say anything else, just lets Martin's hand rest on top of his.

Martin's hands are bigger, but not big enough to entirely envelop the other's hands, and Jon's hands are much, much warmer than his own are. To see what they're doing, Martin moves his head to look over Jon's shoulder. Though he can't see his boyfriend's face from this angle, he can see how it is slowly growing red at the edge of his vision. He decides not to tease him on it, instead content with letting a smile spread across his face and slowly guiding their joined hands in the proper motion.

Or, Martin teaches Jon how to make bread.

stumbling and spinning by lady_mab [G] [3.3k]

“Things happened,” Jon says demurely, trying to untangle Gerry’s fingers, but it only results in him getting pulled in so Gerry can kiss him properly. “It’s not all that bad.”

“I suppose not,” Gerry says with a sigh, sitting back upright. “You somehow managed to snag an incredible boyfriend out of it.”

It takes a solid few seconds before realization clicks in Martin’s brain. “You mean me?” [...]

“You have to admit, Jon has great tastes,” Gerry teases.

nothing sweeter than local honey by beeclaws [T] [3.4k]

So Tim is content, one arm leaned into the spray, waiting for the water to warm, enjoying the feeling of homecoming underneath the gentle fuzz of jetlag, when he hears gasping, panicked breaths coming from the other room.

Tim and Jon, in the aftermath, relearning how to be okay.

When Words are Inadequate by Mugatu [T] [3.8k]

Meals and the preparation of are, for want of a better word, informative. Fact gathering. A place where they can fill in the gaps of their knowledge of the other.

Jon cooks for Martin, and they learn more about each other.

go softly by doomcountry [T] [4k]

And there is nothing else besides this.

Imago by cuttooth [T] [4k]

“Jon?” he asks tentatively, tightening his grip around the poker as it slips against his sweaty palm. The antennae twitch, and suddenly Martin knows that it’s Jon, the knowledge sliding into his mind in a surge of desperate affection, the same profound love he felt that first time he truly saw Jon in the fog of the Lonely.

“Oh,” he whispers. “It really is you.”

*

Jon changes, but he’s still the same to Martin.

shoreline by bibliocratic [G] [4.1k]

“Martin," Tim says kindly, tipsily, only mildly slurring. "Dearest, dearest Martin. You're wankered, babe. Last train to Stockwell fucked off hours ago because it is now piss off o'clock in the morning, and there's a sofa with your exact name on it at my place. Thought you said you wanted some handsome fellow to take you back to his tonight?”

Or: The OG Archive crew go drinking, Martin comes out, and gets some well deserved TLC. In that order.

get your epitaph right by bibliocratic [G] [4.2k]

Martin's daemon has tried on the shape of dogs and lizards and snakes and horses, and even – once, when he was younger and Mum took him to the seaside, a fish.

Martin's never seen his soul in the dressing of a spider before.

i've known the warmth of your doorways by beeclaws [T] [4.2k]

'I’m always in pain, Jon wants to say, even as he dismisses the thought as melodramatic. Between his growing collection of old wounds and scar tissue, the supernatural hunger for statements that hasn’t been truly satiated in months, and the unpredictable aches and strains his body threw off day by day long before he ever set foot in the Institute, some level of pain and discomfort follows Jon wherever he goes now. He is used to being in pain. He’s not used to someone holding his hand as he suffers through it.'

Jon catalogs the comforts he receives, and wonders how long he will be allowed to keep them.

lay down your weary head by Zykaben [T] [4.6k]

Jon has been running himself ragged, searching for every scrap of information he can possibly find about the Unknowing. He's exhausted and sleep-deprived but he can't bring himself to take a break, not now.

Luckily, Tim and Martin are there to make sure that their boyfriend gets the care and rest he needs.

only the sweetest words remain by bluejayblueskies [T] [4.6k]

This isn't how things are supposed to go, right? Jon remembers those ratty paperbacks from the charity shops, dime-a-dozen romance novels with broken bindings and yellowing pages and words that spoke of love and passion and sexuality in prose that was more than a bit too mature for someone whose age hadn’t yet reached double digits. Stolen glances turn into dinner dates turn into passionate kisses turn into…

Well, he’d never actually read those parts of the books, because it had all seemed so deeply uncomfortable and gross. But he got the picture.

Or, Jonathan Sims, on being loved

5k-20k

and they keep not letting go by Marianne_Dashwood [G] [5k]

It’s an electric feeling, something strange and new and familiar all at once, even though he has been holding Martin’s hand for most of the day. His stomach swoops, like he is standing on the edge of the precipice of realisation and staring into the void of unknowing. But at the same time, he does know. In this instant of contact between them, the last few years of cups of tea and small smiles and momentary glances, of panic and fear and only feeling safe with Martin’s solid presence in the room, despite his paranoia, rush into him, and oh, oh oh.

ready to call this love by yewgrove [G] [5.6k]

How is Martin supposed to tell Jon that he panicked, stupidly, when the lovely old lady down the village asked him what they were doing in this part of the world? Got the shopping! Oh, by the way, we're married now! Whole village thinks we're on our honeymoon, hope you don't mind!

Prenons-nous la main by luftballons99 [T] [6k]

They still haven't talked about it, any of it, not even to pass the time on the long train ride to Scotland. Instead, Martin fell asleep in the seat next to him, pressed into his side from shoulder to knee, and Jon thought about love confessions and verb tense and how the two fit together when you think you're dying.

or: Good cows, mediocre poetry, and other crucial topics of discussion.

This Must Be The Place by cuttooth [T] [6k]

“You said – you said we were going home,” Martin says softly.

“I did,” says Jon, and is grateful that Martin doesn’t comment on him calling the Archives home. “I – I don’t really know where to go. I, uh, I don��t have a flat anymore, I don’t think. We could find a hotel?”

“Let’s go to my place,” says Martin. His hand squeezes Jon’s, more gently than before. Most importantly, Jon notes, he doesn’t let go.

*

Jon and Martin go home for a little while.

Small Things, Simple Acts by ZaliaChimera [T] [6.6k]

Even after leaving London, Jon and Martin are not free, not really. Maybe they never will be.

But for now they can be themselves, and maybe in the end, that's enough.

house by tomatoes [G] [9k]

Martin can take care of himself.

roses, roses, roses by acetheticallyy (judesstfrancis) [T] [9.3k]

Rose scented laundry detergent. Running into Jon in the breakroom. Running into Jon on his way back to his desk. Rose scented detergent. Running into Jon. Roses. Jon. Roses, roses, roses.

a deeply annoying child by ajkal2 [G] [9.6k]

Jon is hiding under the desk.

----

There's a child in the Archives, who shouldn't be there.

Inseparable by voiceless_terror [T] [10.3k]

“You can stay.” The voice interrupts his internal panic, and he looks over to find Jon studiously avoiding his gaze, staring hard at a neighboring bush. Martin wonders what caused his sudden change of heart. “But you have to sit on the other side. And don’t talk to me.”

Jonathan Sims and Martin Blackwood meet as children. Some things change, others do not.

i'm almost me again, you're almost you by gruhukens [G] [12k]

After a second Jon steps in towards him, close enough that Martin flinches, but all Jon does is put two fingers under his chin with his free hand and raise it until Martin can’t duck away. Jon has never touched him so casually before – at least, not until today, and it raises a lot of thoughts and feelings that Martin is trying very hard not to process.

Much like a lot of other things that have happened, he thinks. Not that it’s horrible or terrifying or numbing like everything else has been: it’s just another thing on the list of things he doesn’t have the capacity to deal with.

---

In the wake of the Lonely, there's a lot that Martin doesn't really want to think about.

hello my old heart by firebirdsuite [T] [15.8k]

Peter’s wrong, of course. When it’s all over, Martin does still want to tell Jon everything. It’s just—well, there’s a few things they need to work through first before they can get there.

Martin and Jon find each other again in Scotland.

Over 20k

The Kindness of Strangers by TheOestofOCs [M] [23k]

It was easier to treat Jon like a monster when he wasn’t shivering against his back, brokenly humming—wait, was that…

“Are you trying to do ‘Hey, Jude’?” Tim demanded.

Jon stopped, stiffening. “Mm hrmh mm mmh hm,” he said defensively.

“You really can’t hold a tune, can you, boss?”

*

It was just an ordinary walk to a restaurant. Tim had insisted that if they were going to talk, there would be no tape recorders or weird Archives ghosts listening in. A bit of fresh air wouldn’t kill him, Tim had said. What could go wrong?

By the time Jon spots the white delivery van, it’s much too late.

The Stranger kidnaps Jon. Tim comes along for the ride.

Misjudged by ShastaFirecracker [T] [36.5k]

Martin's been a longtime listener of What the Ghost, so when Georgie gives a shoutout to her flatmate's Twitch channel during a Q&A, he checks it out - only to discover that her flatmate is also his most terrifying coworker at his new job. The first time they crossed paths, Jon yelled at him for incompetence. But on the streams, Martin sees an entirely different person - someone fun and relaxed, engaging and unfairly attractive. Over time, Martin begins to find that Jon buried inside his dour, awkward coworker. He also learns to live with the fact that his crush is painfully one-sided... or is it?

if we make it through the night everyone is gonna hear us (Series) by skvadern [Ratings Vary] [42.4k]

In which Sasha survives the NotThem (with a little help from a certain Distortion) and she and Jon spend s2 working together to try and make sense of everything that's happening to them. It goes...interestingly

the garden of forking paths by bibliocratic [T] [49.7k]

Whatever he had predicted might happen, Jon wasn't expecting to survive upon demolishing the Panopticon. He certainly wasn't expecting to be rescued.

Instead, he wakes up in an alternative universe where he's never been the Archivist, and Martin Blackwood doesn't exist.

Martin Blackwood wakes up somewhere else entirely.

it's only forever by lady_mab [T] [50.9k]

“The castle at the center of the labyrinth,” Jon breathes, recalling again the words from one of the past conversations with Martin. “He’s there.”

“Turn back, Jonathan,” the Goblin King says, and Jon is surprised to hear a slight edge of desperation in the tone. “Turn back before it’s too late.”

“I can’t,” Jon answers with the same tone. “You know that I can’t.”

The Goblin King’s grin is gone completely, and he regards Jon with a degree of pity before that melts into resignation.

Yesterday is Here by CirrusGrey [T] [53.3k]

"Who the hell are you?" Jon could feel his hands shaking. The man laughed, taking a step forward and raising a hand to point at him. "I'm you, from the future!" he said, then swayed, eyes going unfocused, and collapsed to the floor in a dead faint. -------- Post-season-four Jon and Martin time travel back to the season one Archives.

A Home For What Loves You by TheWrongShop [T] [151k]

It was completely fine that Jon was following up on this very normal, non-supernatural statement at midnight on a Friday. He was going to find nothing at all, and then he was going to go home and sleep for fourteen straight hours and feel absolutely no qualms about moving case #0150409 directly into the filing cabinet marked "discredited".

Or; Jon and Martin end up investigating Carlos Vittery's basement and finding the entity formerly known as Jane Prentiss together.

RATED E *MINORS DNI*

A Look And A Voice by cuttooth [E] [6.9k]

“Do you want to have sex with me?” Jon asks bluntly, and for a second Martin can’t breathe.

“It - it doesn’t matter what I - ” he begins valiantly, before Jon interrupts him.

“Because I want to have sex with you, and frankly it doesn’t matter if you think it’s for the wrong reasons. I’m an adult. I can make my own decisions. The only thing that matters is if you want to as well.”

*

Martin meets a guy in a bar and takes him home.

Warms The Coldest Night by cuttooth [E] [11k]

"Flame that warms the coldest night Bring to us the waxing Light, Be with us on Solstice Night." Gypsy - Bring Back The Light

There is mistletoe hanging in the doorway to the Archives when Jon gets in.

Curiosity by ShastaFirecracker [E] [11.6k]

“You know that conversation we had the other day about how one of the most important things for queer youth to learn is that it's okay to change their minds, because identity and self-discovery are always fluid?”

Behind him, Martin slipped oven mitts over his hands and pulled open the oven door. The scent of garlic and rosemary flooded the kitchen. “Yeah?” he said.

“I, um... I'd like to revisit the topic of sex.”

At the Interim (Series) by Rend_Herring [E] [41k]

A Measure Outside the Lines and The Residuum

triptych (Series) by Stacicity [E] [44.9k]

A collection of Jon/Tim/Martin fics

a steady hand, a delicate man by callmearctus [E] [52.8k]

Martin is the proprietor and manager of a very discrete and fairly exclusive brothel situated between Belgravia and Chelsea. Blackwood House excels at special requests and pleasing any client.

Except for Jon, who probably has never been pleased a day in his entire life.

Despite that, he still comes back. It eventually begs the question: how do you solve a problem like Jon Sims?