#but I just think about who Karlach is as a person

[midnightcatharsis]

You know what's the worst part of BG3 fandom? Astarion's haters. Truly, pathetic and disgusting individuals. Even now, more than 1 year after the release of the game they go under almost every single Astarion-related video, post, or thread only to spread their hatred often by straight-up lying and making ridiculous claims that can be easily debunked by simply playing the game. They do so in the hope of reaching people who either haven't played BG3, haven't played with Astarion in the party, or are neutral towards him and don't know his story and/or his approvals. Their goal is to make those neutral fans hate Astarion the same way they do. Just today I've seen somebody claiming that Astarion disapproves of saving the gnomes at Moonrise. I corrected them saying they can easily check this information themselves by just playing, playing with the mods that show approval, checking Astarion's wiki, or watching some Astarion approval-only playthroughs. Instead of checking the sources and the game that person said that I was the one lying and doubled on "Astarion doesn't want to save the gnomes and disapproves if you even try" because "he's evil and only approves of evil choices" which of course made me realize that person was purposefully lying through their teeth.

Yeah? Does he?

So Astarion approves of wanting to help with the plan to save both the gnomes and the tieflings? What does his wiki say?

Tell me more about how "AsTaRiOn DisApProvEs of SaVinG gNoMeS at MoOnrIsE". Tell me ******* more. Please notice: 1. The lack of disapproval when choosing to help them 2. Disapproval when choosing telling them they should just die 3. Approval when agreeing to help in the plan to save the gnomes and the tieflings. 4. Disapproval when refusing to give Wulbren the tools - the key and the most important part of the plan. It takes 3 minutes to do some basic research.

I also think it goes without saying that the snack comment was a joke. I don't even want to grace this with an answer but Karlach has a line about knowing how a dwarf tastes and I don't see any outrage.

Everybody is free to like or dislike different companions. That includes Astarion. There are other more legitimate reasons some people may have to dislike him. But to purposefully lie about a fictional character to make others hate him? It takes a really pathetic, miserable person to do something like that…

part 2

[calculatedklown]

Chat….genuine question. And pls nobody fight! 😩 Do you think that if the roles were reversed—if it were Gortash who had his memories erased instead of Durge, do you think Karlach would have offered him a chance to befriend or work with him? If Gortash was a completely blank slate, without any recollection of his past actions or morals. No idea who she is. Would she have considered giving him an opportunity?

Not saying forgive him! Or even pretend it didn’t happen or anything actually “positive” on her end….but I wonder if she would try and work with him…..almost begrudgingly if possible, if their roles in the game were still happening, being tadpoled and whatnot 🤷‍♀️

I say some spoilery things in the tags, so don't read if you haven't finished the game or have not discovered everything about Gortash that the game allows.

[box-dwelling]

Baldurs gate 3 is very funny in that it brings together a group of people who under most circumstances would consider themselves a found family but just so happens to have populated the group with soley people who would be vehemently against calling it that

[trappedinafantasy37]

Since Minthara presents an exterior shell made of steel, and she's sometimes mean, and is an absolute badass in battle, she is often treated and perceived as someone who feels no emotions. And this often occurs to individuals who do put on such a tough exterior. It also does not help that many people perceive evil characters as incapable of doing or feeling anything other than evil. That love and evil are innately incompatible.

But Minthara is not emotionless, she does feel things. Sadness, grief, fear, loneliness, anger, anxiety, paranoia, vengeance, love. She can laugh, she can tell jokes, she can cry, she can smile, and she does get upset at things. If anything, she is emotionally repressed and emotionally guarded and the times where she does really express her more negative and vulnerable emotions is when it becomes too much to hold back and it comes out a little over the top. We have to remember she comes from a society in which such outward emotional expression would be rewarded with social punishment, religious scorn, or even death. So she really doesn't have the healthiest mechanisms to express her emotions.

She hides what she feels all the time as a means of keeping herself safe from punishment. She keeps it to herself cause she does not want you to see her as weak, as she would have been in the past. And she certainly does not want you or anyone else to punish her for it either. She hides behind little pet names and even using words from languages she knows you don't understand as that is the only way she feels safe being vulnerable with you. In her past, her love was rewarded with new wounds and new scars. She is terrified to open up to you, fearing that you will hurt her because she loves you. That her love for you won't actually be enough to stop you from hurting her. And she will only ever admit she loves you in contexts that have a high risk of death because there's really not much for her to lose at that point so she may as well tell you.

She also has a habit of intellectualizing what she feels and experiences so that they appear as "rational" and "logical" rather than emotional and to distance herself from her emotions. She says it takes a sharp mind to have sympathy for someone who suffers unnecessarily. She is trying to make it appear that emotions like sympathy is a matter of the mind, not the heart. That it is a mark of intelligence, because otherwise it would be the mark of weakness.

She blames herself for her own torments, like she deserved the awful things that happened to her. She frames the situation like she is more at fault and more deserving of blame, than the people who hurt her. It is the only way she can find any reason in what happened to her and any reason in her tormentors actions. That she did something wrong and induced someone's wrath upon her, rather than acknowledging that the person who hurt her is just a bad person.

She deserved what Ketheric and Orin did to her because she was "weak, passive, proud". That her emotional state had blinded her from the trap that was set, giving Ketheric and Orin ample opportunity to attack her. That if she hadn't felt those exact emotions, then it wouldn't have happened. She could have seen the trap coming, or she could have fought back.

Or if you attempt to tell her that her childhood was rough and her mother abused her, she immediately deflects by saying, "it could have been worse" and therefore, what she did actually experience wasn't really that bad. And yeah, sure, maybe she needed certain lessons given that she lived in a cruel and dangerous society like Menzoberranzan where she had to be prepared for violence at all times. But trauma is not born of love, it is born of fear, of pain, of agony, and her mother still tried to kill her. Regardless of her mother's intent, it was the first broken bond of trust and it left a mark on Minthara. Where she began to believe that her mother would torment her for torments sake, and she had doubts on whether or not her mother actually loved her.

When you encounter the first Orin imposter, it's pretty damn obvious she is terrified. And you kinda gotta squeeze it out of her to admit that she's afraid. Where it's "I'm afraid of Orin because she is capable of this, this, and this, and you should be too" rather than "I am afraid of Orin because she hurt me." And she begs you, BEGS, to keep her safe because she knows her fear makes her vulnerable to Orin.

She doesn't even truly acknowledge that she wasn't at fault for what Orin did to her until Orin is dead. She doesn't start putting the blame on Orin until Orin is dead. She doesn't go through the emotional process of sympathizing with herself until Orin is dead. And she doesn't admit that she undoubtedly has trauma, until Orin is dead. She gets so wrapped up, and so lost in her own fear and paranoia that she never has the room to properly process the things that happen to her. That her primary concern right now is keeping you, the others, and herself safe and her emotions can wait because wallowing in them will only make her weak. Only does the distance of death give her the room to start healing. Only problem is that there have always been threats and they never end, they never stop. So it is rare for Minthara to ever have a moment of peace and safety to work through what she feels and they just get backed up. Ignoring your problems does not make them go away.

So you wanna know what will happen when an embrace Durge betrays her? She will fall to her death, a knife in her belly, blaming herself for your betrayal. All her worst fears have come to pass and you were indeed a lover who hurt her because she loved you, and that she was a fool to ever trust you at all. That if she didn't love you, maybe you wouldn't have hurt her. She doesn't understand your reasoning, she can't make sense of it, she doesn't know why you'd betray her, so it must have been her fault for thinking you'd be different. That if she hadn't been so loyal, so devoted, that she could have been spared. That her belief that you would rule together is what damned her. She will die blaming herself for her own murder before she ever gets a chance to start blaming you.

[rhysintherain]

@blackjackkent's liveblog of BG3 has inspired So Many Thoughts about the Emperor and Raphael and how they compare as characters.

It's come up that the Emperor's character writing could be intended to portray very different motivations based on how the player character responds to it, but personally I don't think that's it. At its core, I think the Emperor is being honest about its motivations: it only wants to survive. What it's not saying is that it will do anything to achieve that end, at the cost of anyone in its way. And the best tool it has to do that is the protagonist.

Its conversations with the protagonist always remind me of abusive relationship dynamics. it plays nice as long as that works, and changes tactics when nice doesn't get what it wants. It constantly reminds you that you need each other, that you couldn't survive without it, that it is the only one you can trust. It offers moments of vulnerability to lure you in, then tries to cut you off from any allies or courses of action it doesn't approve of.

The thing about abusive relationships is that they only turn violent and confrontational when the abuser doesn't get their way. Violence is a last resort, and most abusers prefer to manipulate people without it. Some people go years without discovering their abuser has the capacity for violence, because they never confront them on the control they exert.

And that's exactly how the Emperor relates to the protagonist. If you never question it, never choose a path it doesn't like, you never get pushback. As long as you play by its rules it has no reason to change tactics, because what it's doing is working.

It's only when the protagonist's aims clearly don't match its own that it resorts to threats. It's only when you call the Emperor's bluff, tell it you know it doesn't care about you, that it shows you the truth about its relationship with Stelmane.

Because the truth is, it only cares about its own survival and freedom. And it's very skilled at the game it's playing. It has a profound ability to judge what the protagonist needs to hear, and show them what they want to see. If you want to see a friend who transcends what a mind flayer is supposed to be, it plays that part flawlessly. If you see through that, it has other methods of control at its disposal.

And the Emperor is brilliantly written as a manipulator. It can convince you that it's been on your side all along. It leaves just enough doubt that you might never know the truth. It preys on trust, and exploits the protagonist's willingness to believe in the inherent goodness of people. It expresses trust and vulnerability to the protagonist, anticipating that they will return that trust in response, regardless of whether it can be trusted.

And the cool thing about Raphael is that he's a very similar type of character. He also knows that being nice gets you further than being dangerous. The difference between them is that Raphael isn't quite as good at it: he has a temper, and is quicker to drop the mask. He has an ego that won't let him tolerate even the slightest resistance without breaking character. He believes in bribery over trust, and it makes his act easier to see through. The protagonist can express the same doubt in both of them and get threats from Raphael and disappointment from the Emperor, which pushes them away from one and towards the other.

And one of the striking things about BG3 is the sheer range of dangerous people it throws at your party. You have the tyrant queen, who took power through betrayal and maintains it through disinformation. The power-hungry boss, who offers what you want only until his rise to power is threatened. The abusive parent, who sees his children as possessions who exist to entertain him. The political climber, who treats his loyalists as pawns in a long game of personal gain. The sadistic elite, who's never had to hide her cruelty to those she controls because that's what authority means in her social circle. The loving father, who cares so little for the rest of the world he'd burn it all down to keep his daughter safe.

It's all excellent writing, but the Emperor might be the masterpiece. You can play out the whole story without clearly seeing how it fits the pattern. It can be your loyal partner, standing at your side and protecting you from all those dangerous people.

But it doesn't have to be. If you question its protection and loyalty, it can also be your worst enemy, determined to use all your shared struggles and deepest secrets to tear you apart.

[bhaalsdeepbat]

Because of the implication that Karlach didn't know any of the more devious shit Gortash was doing while she was employed by him, I HC that he sold her at a point where he couldn't be as covert in his private dealings. Like it was a point where she clearly was going to be a liability and she's good. Too good. Like to her core.

And there isn't a whole lot different between himself and the tiefling rascal he took in so she could support the parents she loves so much. I think that at a certain point he'd just be kinda aggravated because, to him, her view of the world is so idealistic. I like the idea of him having a little bit of petty jealousy, but I can't see that being the motivator for the sale. I think he really believed she was strong enough to handle it - because he was strong enough to withstand the hells - and wanted her to be humbled, in a way. he needed her to have a taste of the real world, so to speak, because his understanding is that it's a cutthroat world and all people are pawns, regardless of age or relation.

that's not a way karlach can live tho

and then she comes back, broken, sure. she has her whole thing where she can consume the soul coins, which ultimately has her viewing lost souls as tokens/pawns in the way gortash sees all people, but she clearly struggles with it and it wasn't a choice she made, but something zariel pushed on her so she could survive.

regardless, karlach's optimism is unwavering and she's still so vivacious. She's angry, understandably so, she has scars, she's done shit she isn't proud of, but she, herself, was never corrupted. when she escapes, she immediately goes full hero mode, she just has the burden of the soul coins to bear bc NO ONE can come out of that situation completely unscathed. and remember the types of friends she made in the hells!!! her one only helps her if it comes with a double-edged sword. despite that, she doesn't prevent it from allowing her to bond with the companions.

so she comes back proof that you can go through what Gortash did and come out mostly in tact. you may be hurt, she shouldn't have HAD to go through that, but she's fighting for a better future for herself (even if that means dying to not return to avernus). Unlike Gortash, she doesn't need to bring the world to heel to pay for the cruelty it showed her.

in fact, everything she went through just makes her appreciate the little good in her life even more and motivates her to aggressively protect her friends.

[swordmaid]

im debating whether or not thalia should help the tieflings on the grove bc on one hand, if she's going for karlachmance then i need dammon alive and she's also a sorc so alfira's robe would be so good on her but on the other i think she's more worried about her parasite and finding a cure instead of taking the time to help out refugees. like when it comes down to it, thalia is a pretty selfish woman and she'd rather save her own skin than help others. she also thinks it's more pragmatic to find a cure for the illithid parasite in the long run since if the ceremorphosis happens, more people will be in danger not just the people in the grove.

[perilegs]

ok i might need to force myself to not romance astarion bc i don't want to know what it says about me to turn down karlach, the woman of my dreams, the character made to cater me personally, like, if she was real i'd bring the moon and stars down for the chance to see her smile, she's everything i've hoped for in a rpg companion, what does it say about me if i turn that down for someone like astarion

[imogenkol]

Really wanted to finally do a Minthara romance with Yvaine’s playthrough and I thought I fucked it up but I knocked her out during the battle at the Grove just in case and now we’re in act 3 living our best murder wives lives and I couldn’t be happier

[residueradiation]

okay people are gonna be mad at me but please

gay people seeing themselves in characters who are bi in canon are not your enemies

we just rarely ever get any representation, okay?

[parasite-core]

Shadowheart was so mad at Addy over finding out he was the one who started the cult of the Absolute, and for him not telling them. Even though Addy didn’t know before just then either. And they all know he has amnesia and he made no secret of this being a surprise to him while talking to Gortash.

Shadowheart, my girl, *you* have amnesia, have a little empathy.

[invinciblerodent]

Oh, this Guardian introduction scene is a lot more impactful and confusing if they look like someone your character has very strong ties to, but never wants to see again, than if it's a random hot buff tiefling lady.

So... for this run I made them look like Herric, Iona's "ex"-husband. (I mean, technically they're still married, kind of. I suppose if you mutually try to kill one another with fire and an axe respectively, and then flee into the wilderness not knowing if he's dead or alive but at the same time not even caring and just starting to use your maiden name without a secodn thought, that oughta count as something of a divorce.)

This person, he wears the scar she gave him that last time, that shining burn that stretches and twists across his face... the last image that she ever saw of him as she fled into the woods. That fury, and pain, and murderous intent had etched itself into her memory, to the point that on the rare occasions she is forced to recall his face, this is what she sees: bubbled, gnarled flesh, either raw and gleaming as if it had been polished, or healed over with new skin to take its place, as it would be by now, and a once-handsome face, now distorted in contempt.

This person... they're his spitting image, but they are a stranger nonetheless. She had known Herric practically her whole life, lived with him, shared his bed for over half of it, and their voice, their movements... they're all wrong. They (he?) wear Herric's face, but they seem to have none of his ignorance, his temper, his virulent hatred of all that is magical, arcane... indeed, they chuckle at her immediate hostility, offer her kindness, don't look at her with disgust, desire, or dread, and they command great magics that leave her equal parts awed and terrified.

She doesn't trust a single word out of this creature's mouth. She doesn't want, or doesn't want to need his help. She doesn't want to think about his words, or how he may or may not be the reason she's not a monster yet.

... And talking to Astarion in the morning about these things, it also leaves her with mixed feelings. Sure, to be called an "utter drip" who "hates good news" and to be asked if she has some sort of condition forcing her to "spoil his fun" does make it all feel a bit less daunting and more ridiculous, it kind of clears her head, and his theatrical bristling that makes him seem almost like he's a big, wet bird puffing his feathers makes it difficult not to smile, but... she can't tell him why exactly this has her so shaken. They're not at that level yet, if they're ever going to be.

At this point, they're not exactly "please console me and let me feel safe when my past unearths itself from its grave like some sort of grotesque zombie and comes back to haunt me" type of a thing, they're more of a "let's fuck in the woods and tell each other heavily abbreviated stories about ourselves that more or less omit all the parts that would paint us in less favorable lights" thing.

Honestly, she kind of hates that in this fragile state, she finds herself wanting not only his touch, or a cordial conversation, but his comfort, too.

(In due time, that.)

[maddisandy]

everyone has some pretty reasonable dynamics and then there's soleil and gale

[eye-of-yelough]

i’m really normal and totally not driving myself crazyinsane thinking about who i’m gonna play veilguard with

[mymreaderlibrary]

Unironically would love to explore this concept in a more serious tone as well. Karlach having met or at least seen Durge around Gortash's home. They were always odd and off-putting, but so was most of Gortash's crowd. Still, their presence was oppressive and she sometimes had to consider them as a threat against him. They could be some noble trying to seize power through him. Or they could be just another bed warmer with mindless intentions. Regardless, they were on her radar. Then of course the Hells happened and after those 10 agonizing years she's finally free, and who does she see first things first? Durge, that same motherfucker who used to haunt the halls of Gortash's manor. Gortash's manor. Karlach doesn't believe them when they claim to not remember the past, convenient amnesia is just a bullshit excuse cowards use but she slowly realizes they're dead serious. Beyond serious, they barely even know who they are. She won't be finding Gortash through them, but maybe she could turn his former adversary into his enemy, give that bastard an extra kick in the ass with some betrayal of the inner kind. However Durge begins to get their memories back, each one more vile than the last. They chose not to tell Karlach about their memories of Gortash, knowing that it may send her into a spiral (justifiably). But each memory spells out a clearer picture as Durge realizes they were not just one of Gortash's dolls. If anything, Durge had some form of power over the man, their mutual obsession fueling a strange and twisted affair. They were neither of each others lapdogs, they were equals. Eventually Karlach finds out and she ends up as the one feeling betrayed. Gortash's "nearest and dearest" was RIGHT THERE the whole time, they were someone she even considered a friend. She regrets giving them the benefit of the doubt, she should've known better than to trust any who aligned, formerly or currently, with that bastard. Maybe they didn't remember who they were at first, but eventually their former self would return.

And then that leaves it up to Durge, if they wish to betray their former relationship with Gortash for the sake of their new ally. Or if they want to finish what they started and let Karlach be just another casualty in their quest to greatness. If they pick Karlach it won't be easy, she will be broken from her shit life and it will take more than a little convincing that they're on her side. Undoubtably she will have Wyll to support her, but there's only so much a shoulder to cry on can offer, especially given what she's been through. Durge won't be forgiven, at least not quickly, but if they put in the time, put in the effort, they could forge something new. Perhaps forgiveness is unattainable, but allyship is possible. But if they pick Gortash I feel it would be oh so simple. He was practically waiting for them to return, every since he got the news his beloved slayer was still alive. Who better to top of their grand scheme than the mastermind themself, Gortash's own lover (if they even dared to call each other such... and perhaps, with all this power in their midst, they now could). They're already at the climax of their story, why back away now? Why keep the people waiting? This is their grand finale.

Listen. I don't know exactly how long Durge and Gortash knew each other, but wouldn't it have been absolutely hilarious. if upon meeting karlach the first time just

Wyll: ah I have finally found you, advocatus diaboli-

Karlach: yeah okay give me a minute before you kill me, YOURE THAT GUY THAT FUCKED ENVER WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING HERE

durge, like 3 days old, freshly discovering the whole "sex" thing again: I did what. With who

[bhaalsdeepbat]

i'm SO down bad for durge/wyll where they both are each other's support through trying to be more than their patron's pet