#btas meta

[dukeofthomas]

I find the fact that the confrontation at the end of UTRH is often summarized as Jason asking Bruce to kill the Joker for him fascinating.

Because that's not what happened.

Jason holds a gun up to Joker's head, gives Bruce another, and tells him that if Bruce doesn't do something (shoot Jason), he will kill Joker.

Jason doesn't give the gun to Bruce so that he would shoot Joker. He isn't expecting Bruce to pull the trigger on the clown. He's asking Bruce to do nothing. To be inactive. Because that will still be a choice, and despite having done nothing, everybody clearly agrees that Bruce would still, at least in part, be responsible for Joker's death.

...And to me, this moment is a kind of- microcosm, of the rest of Jason's point. Because after being captured and carted off to Arkham, the villain will escape again, and will kill more people. The only way to truly prevent that from happening would be to kill them; Bruce refuses to do so, and I respect his right to choose such a thing for himself, but it is still a choice, and if we agree that Bruce's inaction during the confrontation would leave him at least partly responsible for the Joker's death, then we must also agree that his inaction in permanently preventing the Rogues from killing more people means he is also, partly, responsible for all of those deaths.

[thecruellestmonth]

Remembering stuff like Alfred having Bruce and cutting his hair and and dressing him. Which could mean anything but really reinforce the upstairs/downstairs servile relationship. The lack of modesty or shame a rich person has around their staff is something else. And it’s just a like. Almost a Caste system where Alfred is second class and can never BE on Bruce’s level as an equal let alone authority figure. And Alfred is happy with that! Because that’s the story and he is, after all, the butler

[laufire's cool post on Alfred & Bruce]

Yeah, Alfred is not Bruce's father. Bruce is the pater familias of his household like his father before him, and Alfred is his very cherished manservant. Alfred can be a caretaker and a confidant, he can even be parental (-ish), but he's not a parent. (Note to self: rant about the awkward and aggressively enforced line between "parental" and "parent" in Batman mythos.)

IMO one of the most compact arguments on Alfred's role is in Batman: Year One (IIRC the very comic that established Alfred as an old servant of the Wayne family, instead of his original story of being hired by Bruce). Grant Morrison was on some podcast (I think either Kevin Smith's podcast or "Hypertime to Podcast"?) talking about the significance of how Bruce's first act as Batman is to ring a bell to ask for Alfred to help him. We see Morrison emphasize this moment in The Return of Bruce Wayne, where The Bell is a relic on the same level as The Pearls and The Gun.

I can agree it's a defining moment. To some extent I'm willing to accept Morrison's suggestion that Bruce ringing the bell symbolizes the value of asking for help, teamwork, comradery, family, humility, etc—and most fans would be happy to sprint with that interpretation. But I can also juggle a separate interpretation that branches off and veers to the left...

You do not ring a bell to ask for help from your parent or friends or family—you ring a bell to summon a servant.

Bruce becoming Batman in Year One is the story of a prince reclaiming his kingdom. (The Return of Bruce Wayne is a renewal of that story.) Summoning the family manservant is the act of Bruce finally accepting his royal inheritance, after his foolish attempt to slum it with the rabble. A good king is kind and attentive to his subjects, and considers the opinions of his advisors—but they're never his equals or his superiors, no matter how much he cherishes them. They're his subordinates. Nobody is on Bruce's level as an equal, nobody can win a case against his authority, in Gotham. Bruce is the rightful heir of his kingdom. The king and queen are dead, long live the king.

—I know some vocal fans are very critical of Miller, but there's no disputing that Miller's Batman: Year One is the definitive Post-Crisis story of Bruce's invention of Batman, and pretty much every modern comic writer and fan recognizes it. It's likely no comic writer or story has had as much enduring influence on the Batman mythos since Miller wrote Year One and The Dark Knight Returns. Case in point: Alfred.

So yeah. Alfred isn't Bruce's dad. The Gotham TV series probably makes the strongest case for Alfred as Bruce's dad, and even then I personally think there is wiggle room to say eh they're family and they love each other but they're not quite parent & child. Everything else—Batman '66, BTAS, the Nolan movies, Lego Batman, Battinson—ultimately doesn't Alfred cast as Bruce's dad, for the best. Recent comics and the later Arkhamverse games try to force the father-son thing, but it's cheap and unearned.

[jesncin]

So Two Face in Caped Crusader (spoilers)

Out of all the characters that were announced for Caped Crusader, I was most intrigued over their potential re-imagining of Harvey Dent as Two Face. His description as "a corrupt DA who uses his position to help rich criminals evade justice [...] when he gets his face disfigured, for the first time in his life he actually feels empathy for other people" felt the most substantially interesting a change, even if it sounded like a huge departure from his standard origin. I'm here for shakeups, this show is already establishing itself as having an out there elseworld energy to it so I was curious.

for reference, this is how I'd visualize a very standard Harvey origin story. It's a typical, straightforward tragedy that works. A mix of Harvey's fall from grace as Gotham's good boy to a criminal makes it all the more devastating when he's close friends with Bruce Wayne- someone who keeps giving Harvey second chances because he feels he can see just a glimpse of his old friend there. A great dark reflection of Bats, 10/10, no wonder people consider Harvey as strong an arch-enemy as Joker. Simple, effective, functional.

This is what I thought Caped Crusader was going to do based on what Bruce Timm said in promotion. It's a take with some good merit- I'm imagining a Harvey who's a corrupt, privileged hot jerk who gets humbled when that corruption bites back and disfigures him. But instead of that accident awakening "previous violent tendencies" or an alter identity, perhaps (as a switch up) it's instead something that marginalizes him. His pretty privilege is literally half effective now, and suddenly he is on the receiving end of judgement he so willingly gave others. He'd be depressed, anxious, maybe some PTSD going on over the acid face incident- recognizing that many of the rogues are like him but he chooses empathy instead.

The standard tragedy of Bruce seeing glimpses of his "old friend" in Two Face would have to be changed. Maybe this time Bruce is surprised at this change of heart? Believes in second chances even if Harvey's methods can be sorta out there (kinda reminds him of himself)? Would Harvey even be violent at all? Perhaps he genuinely became a kinder, empathetic guy but has a tragic end- forcing Bruce to wonder if that kind of hope for change is possible. Or bolder yet, make him a redeemed bad guy and one of the people on team good. Maybe he's the exception to the One Bad Day theme- perhaps Gotham doesn't poison everything good.

I'm not saying my take on their description is perfect or anything (it's certainly not as perennial and self-sustaining a villain motive. Feels more built for a tragic end or redemption, etc.), just that this is where my brain went, and thought "yeah there's something here, sure I'll hear you out."

So imagine my surprise when Caped Crusader delivered what's basically a very non-committal version of Two Face's standard origin???

The lack of contrast between his pre and post-accident transformation (other than "he's more extreme now") makes the change way less dramatic. Harvey starts off as a corrupt DA who butts heads with Good Lawyer Barbara Gordon, but apparently he's not corrupt enough to take an offer from the mob. So when he does eventually accept their offer out of pressure, it doesn't feel as dramatic a descent since he was already set up to be some level of corrupt. His "good change of heart" post-accident doesn't feel that dramatic when the whole reason he got acid-faced is because he grew the morals to reject the mob's assistance.

Then there's his relationship with Bruce. It's worthy of a whole other post so I won't go too deep into it, but Caped Crusader makes it clear that Bruce Wayne in this take is a performance. Not only do we barely see Bruce and Harvey interact throughout the first half of the show, but when they finally do they don't feel particularly close. Bruce went missing one time and Harvey was concerned for him, but they forgot to wrap that up. Later after Harvey's acid-accident, Bruce takes him out to dinner. This is revealed to be a play Batman's doing to pressure Harvey into telling Bruce who assaulted him. It's framed... very strangely. The show makes it look like Bruce pushed Harvey over the edge to get answers, but what Bruce did wasn't particularly cruel or unique to him. If it wasn't Bruce, someone else would have asked Harvey out to dinner eventually. If Bruce forced him to do a public interview with the press (putting Harvey on the spot publicly before he's ready), then I'd get it. But taking Harvey out to dinner among friends isn't the cruel and inconsiderate act the show frames it to be. Then they have a meet up again in Arkham, where Bruce attempts to comfort Harvey into accepting Barbara's offer to represent him. It's still not a very genuine interaction. "Don't start growing a conscience now, Dent." it still feels like a play on Batman's part. Like he wants to protect Harvey so that a less-evil politician is in charge of Gotham. Not as a friend.

By creating a Bruce that isn't personally close to Harvey, we lose what makes their standard dynamic so tragic. There's literally a line of dialogue where Harvey has to tell us, the audience, that Bruce is his old friend because what they've shown us isn't very convincing. So who does that leave as his foil? Barbara Gordon. Yes, because when you make a Batman that doesn't care to have genuine relationships with his cast system because he's so dedicated to the mission, that means other characters who care more (Barbara) have to fill that void. There's a reason why it's Barbara who causes Harley to turn over a new leaf, the reason why the police force are more centered in the narrative compared to Bats, why she's the one targeted with an assassination attempt.

I was honestly surprised that post-acid face incident, Two-Face's arc was fairly standard? He goes on a killing spree and doesn't believe in the Justice system anymore. Only this time Harvey's moments of "humanity" are signaled with him covering his pretty boy face, framing his disfigured side as the empathetic one instead of his pretty boy side. That's basically it though, it's an aesthetic change and the story would play out the same regardless of which half of his face he covered during those moments. I thought the disfigured face representing empathy was meant to symbolize something. Like marginalization of a sort? But it really was just that- "it's the other side that's the nice one now".

After Harvey's murder spree he's shown to be kinder, but I wouldn't really call it empathy (as described in the promotion). It felt more like guilt. Harvey felt he wasn't worth saving or protecting because of his actions (pre and post acid face). He's disgusted by what he's able to get away with because of his privilege, but that's not exactly empathy is it? There's that moment Harvey helps an Arkham inmate get his comfort plush returned to him, but we don't know where that kindness comes from. What informs his empathy to criminals? It just sorta happened, unmotivated or thematic.

I figured if they're not committing to a drastically different Harvey, it meant they wanted to keep him as a long standing rogue so they made noncommittal changes to his origin. But nope, they killed him off in the last episode! Which makes me think "well then if you were going to kill him, then why not go all the way with a drastically different Harvey then??" That very obviously click-bait moment where Batman picks up a gun and fake-shoots a corrupt cop after Harvey is killed didn't even feel motivated because he was barely friends with Harvey. I'm not even convinced he's sad about his supposed friend being killed. Harvey risks his life to save Barbara after all.

It's all just a mess of pieces. They want to make brave new changes to Harvey's origin, but are held back by their noncommittal choices and their "crime fighting machine" version of Bruce. Out of all the rogues, Harvey was essentially the only one we got to see his fall from grace happen in real time. The rest of the rogues skipped to having a gimmick/costume/villain motive already and I think that robs us of being able to empathize with them. Yet even Harvey struggles thematically. The duality theme is absent, the tragedy of a childhood friend gone rogue doesn't exist, and the inclusion of the coin toss felt like an obligation instead of an integrated part of his ideals.

Batman said "Dent put his thumb on the scale in court sometimes, but he did care about justice." Really? Because the show started with Dent trying to get an innocent boy convicted as an ad for his mayoral campaign. You can't keep telling me this version of Harvey "cares about Justice" only to show me something else. If you had a Harvey who faked evidence or forced witnesses to lie in order to convict a bad guy Barbara didn't realize she was defending, then we'd have a properly morally grey situation that matches how Batman describes him in the show. Alfred ended the season saying "Harvey Dent was twisted by ambition. He lost sight of his own humanity." That's not what I watched. The Harvey Caped Crusader showed me started off as corrupt and every now and then did the right thing, and felt guilt over his power, post-acid face incident. It means something that the show essentially had to tell us how to feel about him, because the show itself certainly wasn't sure what to do with him.

[artbyblastweave]

Hero-fy Killer Croc.

He's already sitting solidly at the anti-villain/anti-hero mark these days, and a couple of times in independent continuities where they aren't at risk of another writer deciding they need a big scaley jobber or yet another Hannibal Lector pastiche, they've gone all the way with it. You should read Batman: Earth One, by Geoff Johns and Gary Frank, where Croc is an early ally of Batman and a founding member of the Outsiders.

It's emblematic of the situation where honestly, the majority of Batman's rogues would make good superheroes if they chose to go that route, because part of what sticking around as a memorable Batman rogue has come to entail is that you mirror him in some way, act as a foil. Nobody's tripping over themselves to write redemption arcs for everyone in Superman's rogue's gallery, or Wonder Woman's, or Green Lanterns, but most of the memorable Bat-villains lend themselves to that approach.

[poisonousquinzel]

Batman: The Animated Series Harley Quinn being the Blueprint for Modern Harley Quinn

my actual version of this post

Working On The Side Of / With The Batfam

Harlequinade (EP) • "Batman and Robin have no time to spare in stopping the Joker from detonating an atomic bomb, so they enlist the help of Harley Quinn to hunt the Joker down."

Batgirl Adventures • "When Poison Ivy is captured by mobsters, Harley Quinn must act quickly to save her, so she turns to the only hero she can find: Batgirl!"

Batman: Gotham Adventures #43 • "Who's out to get Harley Quinn? Batman has to take her on as a sidekick to find out. The answer awaits deep in Harley's history...that is, if she and the Dark Knight survive the traps set for them all over Gotham!"

Batman: The Adventures Continue Season 1 (2020) #12 | Season 3 #2, #5, #7

-

Also before anyone comes @ me all "oh but what about her participating in the Death in the Family storyline", I've made a post here talking about the exacts of Harley's involvement in Jason's death.

Trying To Have A Better, Reformed Life / Redemption Arc

Batman: The Animated Series "Harley's Holiday"

Batman: Gotham Adventures #10

Batman: The Adventures Continue Season 3 (2023) #2

Ending Scene In Batman Beyond: Return Of The Joker

Being A Little Goofy Gal

Batman: The Adventures Continue Season 2 (2020) #7

Batman: The Animated Series • "Holiday Knights", "Harlequinade", "The Man Who Killed Batman"

Dressing Revealingly / Being Sexual

Batman: The Animated Series • "Harley & Ivy", "Harley's Holiday", "Holiday Knights", "Beware The Creeper"

The Batman Adventures: Mad Love

Being Bisexual (cry about it♡)

Paul Dini: When Bruce and I did the Harley and Ivy miniseries, it was certainly implied that [Ivy and Harley] had a relationship with each other—they shared hugs and kisses. I didn’t want that to overpower what the story was, but the relationship between them is so natural.

Paul Dini: The more I worked with [Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy], the more I could see [a romantic relationship] happening. Unfortunately, at the time, in an animated kids cartoon, you really couldn’t get into the complexity of that or honor what a relationship like that could really be. We just showed them together as friends and on fairly intimate terms when they were out of the costume, but nothing was implicit because if we couldn’t do that relationship properly then we didn’t want to do it at all.

Batman: The Animated Series • "Holiday Knights"

Batgirl Adventures (1997)

Love Is Love (2016)

Batman: The Adventures Continue Season 3 #2-7

Breaking The Fourth Wall

Batman: The Animated Series • "Harley's Holiday"

HQ, turning her head towards the camera: "Talk about grasping at straws. Oh, well, at least I'm going out on a joke."

Being A Domestic Violence Victim (And That Being A Prevalent Aspect Of Her Story)

"Everyone else sees the Joker laugh, only Harley has ever seen him cry. It's the only reason she stays with him.

Harleen, having once been a therapist, has touched onto his vulnerability. She knows who he is underneath. That’s what keeps her there."

- Arleen Sorkin [Batman: Animated | Interview Add-On Comment]

Batman: The Animated Series • "The Laughing Fish", "Harley & Ivy", "Mad Love"

Justice League • "Wild Cards"

The Batman Adventures: Mad Love (comic)

Harley Quinn: Mad Love (Novel)

Batman: The Animated Series | The New Batman Adventures Episodes

Harlequinade Aired: May 23, 1994 Writer: Paul Dini Director: Kevin Altieri

Harley's Holiday Aired: October 15, 1994 Writer: Paul Dini Director: Kevin Altieri

Holiday Knights Aired: September 13, 1997 Writer: Paul Dini Director: Dan Riba

The Man Who Killed Batman Aired: February 1, 1993 Writer: Paul Dini Director: Bruce Timm

Harley & Ivy Aired: January 18, 1993 Writer: Paul Dini Director: Boyd Kirkland

Beware The Creeper Aired: November 7, 1998 Writer: Rich Fogel Story by: Steve Gerber Director: Dan Riba

The Laughing Fish Aired: January 10, 1993 Writer: Paul Dini Director: Bruce Timm

Mad Love Aired: January 16, 1999 Writer: Paul Dini Story by: Bruce Timm & Paul Dini Director: Butch Lukic

Justice League Wild Cards Aired: December 6, 2003 Writer: Stan Berkowitz and Dwayne McDuffie Director: Butch Lukic

Ending Scene In Batman Beyond: Return Of The Joker Story: Paul Dini, Glen Murakami, Bruce Timm Screenplay: Paul Dini Director: Curt Geda

The Batman Adventures: Mad Love Writers: Paul Dini, Bruce Timm Pencilers: Bruce Timm Inkers: Bruce Timm Colorists: Bruce Timm, Rick Taylor Letterers: Tim Harkins Editors: Scott Peterson, Darren Vincenzo

Batman: Gotham Adventures #43 Writers: Scott Peterson Pencilers: Tim Levins Inkers: Terry Beatty Colorists: Lee Loughridge Letterers: Albert DeGuzman Editors: Joan Hilty, Harvey Richards

Batman: Gotham Adventures #10 Writers: Ty Templeton Pencilers: Rick Burchett Inkers: Terry Beatty Colorists: Lee Loughridge Letterers: Tim Harkins Editors: Darren Vincenzo

Batman: The Adventures Continue Season 1 #12 Writers: Alan Burnett, Paul Dini Pencilers: Ty Templeton Inkers: Ty Templeton Colorists: Monica Kubina Letterers: Josh Reed Editors: Andrew Marino

Batman: The Adventures Continue Season 2 #7 Writers: Alan Burnett, Paul Dini Pencilers: Rick Burchett Inkers: Rick Burchett Colorists: Monica Kubina Letterers: Josh Reed Editors: Andrew Marino

Batman: The Adventures Continue Season 3 #2 Writers: Alan Burnett, Paul Dini Pencilers: Kevin Altieri Inkers: Kevin Altieri Colorists: Monica Kubina Letterers: Josh Reed Editors: Andrew Marino, Ben Meares, Katie Kubert

Batman: The Adventures Continue Season 3 #5 Writers: Alan Burnett, Paul Dini Pencilers: Ty Templeton Inkers: Ty Templeton Colorists: Monica Kubina Letterers: Josh Reed Editors: Ben Meares, Andrew Marino, Katie Kubert

Batman: The Adventures Continue Season 3 #7 Writers: Alan Burnett, Paul Dini Pencilers: Ty Templeton Inkers: Ty Templeton Colorists: Monica Kubina Letterers: Josh Reed Editors: Ben Meares, Andrew Marino, Katie Kubert

Batgirl Adventures (1997) Writers: Paul Dini Pencilers: Rick Burchett Inkers: Rick Burchett Colourists: Rick Taylor Letterers: Albert DeGuzman Editors: Scott Peterson, Darren Vincenzo

Love is Love (2016) Writer: Paul Dini Illustrator: Bill Morrison Colourist: Robert Stanley Letterer: Sal Cipriano

Harley Quinn: Mad Love (Novel) Written By: Pat Cadigan and Paul Dini

I am aware this last one isn't technically in the BTAS universe, but later on in the novel, it blends into the Mad Love comic/episode and then goes past it. I only used scenes that were originally featured in the comic/episode as they are just those scenes in a purely written form.

Harley Quinn: Mad Love (Novel) Pg. 261 He lowered his head and slumped, the very picture of dejection. Harley couldn’t stand to see him that way. She cuddled up next to him and took him in her arms. “I know how to make some smiles, puddin’,” she said in a playful, sultry voice. His whole body stiffened under her touch. “Puddin’?” But she knew it was hopeless; she’d done the wrong thing again. A moment later, he was leading her down the stairs by her nose, pinching it so hard between his thumb and forefinger that she cried out on every step. “Ow-ow-ow-ow-ow! That hurts! It really, really hurts! Please, puddin’—” He pinched even harder as he led her to the door, opened it, then turned her around. “How many times do I have to tell you?” he roared, applying his foot to her backside. “Don’t call me puddin’!” Harley scrambled to her feet just as he slammed the door in her face. She started to beg him to let her in but suddenly all the fight went out of her and she sank down to sit cross-legged in front of the door. Thrown out again; how many times was this? She’d lost count. No, she hadn’t. This was the twenty-fifth time. That averaged out at roughly three times a week for the past two months. - Harley Quinn: Mad Love (Novel) Pg. 255 “Hey, that’s a real gasser, ain’t it, Mistah J?” she said between giggles. In the next moment, Gordon thought the nitrous was making him hallucinate as events took a sharp turn into the surreal. The Joker grabbed the floppy points on Harley’s hat, pulling her to him so they were nose to nose. “I deliver the punchlines around here!” he bellowed into her face. “Got that?” “Yessir,” Harley Quinn said, her voice tiny and fearful. The Joker shoved her aside and the jolly Clown Prince of Crime persona was back.

[f-o-and-selfship-club]

Did this favourite character bingo but it's with my beloved crushes –w–

Your free to try it out if you want!

Characters in order (left to right)

First row

Zavok (Sonic)

Stocking Anarchy (Panty and Stocking)

Ragdoll (The Batman 2004 Series)

Vulture (The Spectacular Spider Man)

Question (Justice League Unlimited)

Second row

Paimon (Helluva Boss)

Doc Ock (Spectacular Spider Man)

Caine (The Amazing Digital Circus)

Freaky Fred (Courage The Cowardly Dog)

Mario.EXE (Mario's Madness)

Third row

Sub Zero (Mortal Kombat)

Dr Strangeglove (Moshi Monsters)

Meta Knight (Kirby)

Alastor (Hazbin Hotel)

Fourth row

Neo Cortex (Crash Bandicoot)

Katz (Courage The Cowardly Dog)

Jafar (Disney's Aladdin)

Emperor Zurg (Buzz Lightyear of Star Command)

MX (Mario 85 and Mario's Madness)

Fifth row

NOS-4-A2 (Buzz Lightyear of Star Command)

Scarecrow (Injustice 2)

Bob Velseb (Spooky Month)

Mad Hatter (Batman: The Animated Series)

HIM (Powerpuff Girls)

[linkspooky]

Do you think that Batman could empathize with Tomura and successfully reach out? They are both orphans with a dark side. The difference being is that Bruce was able to work through his darkness to be healthy(er) while Tomura had all his pain cultivated for 15-16 years.

Yes. 100% yes. That’s not even a question for me. I’ve been dying for someone to send me a question like this, because it’s something I’ve noticed in the general fandom response to the pro-heroes and the hero kids. The thing is, the heroes in My Hero Academia don’t really act like good wholesome heroes. They certainly act like marvel movie heroes... in the fact that they have strong superheroes and fight a bad guy and have such a clear delineation between good and evil that many viewers take them to have propagandistic qualities. Like, there’s a reason that marvel movies have degraded to what they are today currently, and besides all the other factors it’s because these comic book heroes are really getting sanded down into a set of superpowers, a costume and a bad guy to beat with no ideals or themes behind their characters. My Hero Academia heroes aren’t really that heroic, they don’t really have any ideals they stand for except the extremely vague notion of defeat the bad guy. Yeah, Deku has “Save people” but Deku is noted several times to be an oddity among heroes. 

The Pro-Heroes and the Hero Kids in My Hero Academia have this weird paradox to them where the story itself, and also in world hero propaganda sells the idea that heroes are incredibly wholesome, always selfless, people who go above and beyond to save and protect. Yet, the heroes in MHA are actually extremely cynical, and pragmatic, and they also really have no guiding principals beyond “Might makes Right.”

You can put all heroes on the scale of Spiderman <---------> Punisher. 

To define them by whether they are a superhero focused on saving innocents, or a violent vigilante who is focused on punishing the guilty, the heroes in MHA are far more on the punisher scale of things than anyone either in setting or the fandom would like to admit. This is a universe where heroes like Hawks and Lady Nagant regularly commit state sponsored executions. This is a setting where Enji Todoroki is revealed to be a heinous abuser of his family and everyone in the superhero community is like... fine with it for the most part. They either don’t bring it up, or they think Enji does such a good job it justifies his position. 

I mean, here to justify my accusation that heroes in MHA are far more on the punisher side of the scale. To compare to another manga, Jujutsu Kaisen and My Hero Academia have a similiar circumstance where a villain, Mahito and Dr. Garaki respectively are able to transform unwilling victims into mindless attack dogs by twisting their bodies into unseemly and horrifying shapes. Mahito’s altered humans, and Dr. Garaki’s nomus respectively seem to retain some sense of humanity and are in a state of pain. Nanami Kento, Shoko and Yuji all come to the harsh reality that there is nothing they can really do for the humans that Mahito has twisted, except for a swift mercy killing, and yet a lot of time is still given to the fact that killing something that is a human being is wrong and a heavy task even though it’s their only option, and two that the decision to kill someone is an extremely heavy burden to bear not made lightly. Nanami straight up loses all focus in a fight, and stops to wipe the tear of a former human when he realizes what they are fighting against. 

Compare this to the way every hero responds to the Nomus in My Hero Academia. Enji without knowing whether or not they are truly sentient or even capable of being turned back into what they were, roasts one alive right away it’s his first action with them. Enji then later on meets a Nomu who is capable of intelligence and communication, and roasts it alive even harder specifically because the way the Nomu Acts, reminds Enji of a darker part of himself, and killing that enemy is perfectly satisfying to Enji because it allowed him to take out those personal frustrations. When Mirko learns that the Nomu are former human bsings she has no hesitation at all at bashing their brains in, in fact she’s almost delighted because she doesn’t have to hold back and that makes it easier than fighting regular villains. If the enemy is sufficiently dehumanized than heroes in my Hero Academia very easily resort to murderous methods, and it’s not just heroes like Enji, Mirko does it, heck Present Mic expresses the sentiment that Oboro would be better off dead then continuing his existence as Kurogiri. 

The heroes in My Hero Academia are dark, almost myopic. I’m not saying you can’t enjoy them, but they are very different from the way heroes act in western comic books and I think a lot of people don’t know this because a lot of manga fans don’t really pick up comic books, and their biggest experience with western heroes therefore comes from movies. 

So when I say BATMAN WOULD NEVER dehumanize a villain to the extent the My Hero Academia heroes do on a regular basis, I’m not saying that as a batman fan, I am saying that because Batman is probably THE MOST IDEALISTIC DC HERO. Yes, even moreso than superman. Batman is Clark’s hero. His inspiration. His good time boy. 

Bruce would have noticed there was something off about Tomura right away in the early stages, if not the very first attack he waged on UA. I’m going to use two examples to prove my argument, one the fact that heroes also noticed that Shigaraki was extremely mentally unwell and just decided not to really care about it, and two Batman was actually faced with an extremely similiar situation in BTAS and his reaction is pretty much the opposite of All Might’s. 

1. There’s Something Wrong with That Kid

To those who were paying attention to Shigaraki’s character from the beginning, even before we got to dig further into his backstory in My Villain Academia arc, or even be shown a more sympathetic and human side to his personality in the Overhaul arc, from his introduction Shigaraki shows signs of extreme mental distress. He is constantly exocriating himself, which is a form of self-harm that manifests under circustmances of extreme psychological stress. Shigaraki has a full on skin disorder that many people have because he is so poor at managing his stress he relentlessly picks and scratches at himself. 

When he starts to lose in the middle of the fight, he essentially throws a tantrum, and not only does he immediately want to give up and go home, but he also lashes out at his own ally to try to vent that anger. 

When All Might removes the hand from his face he has a momentary break from reality, and talks to the hand a physical object like it’s a person calling it “father” and apologizing to it. 

Shigaraki also shows a clear grudge against both heroes, the failure of heroes, and the violence that heroes show (no kidding he’s a victim of violent abuse and the cycle of abuse in his family has an origin in his grandmother’s complete and total failure as a mother) that he clearly states in front of All Might once, and then Deku later the idea that heroes do not save people with their violence, and the implication that there are people that All Might have not saved and both times he is essentially brushed off by both of them. 

Shigaraki’s mental distress is so obvious that even the heroes of My Hero Academia, who’s general response to villains is lock them up and throw away the key, noticed it. The heroes notice several of the symptoms I listed above about Shigaraki, but then decide to dismiss him as a man-child and then go on to say that he represents a kind of “pure evil” that villains may find attractive. The enertain the idea for like half a second that there might be more to Shigaraki that makes him different from the regular street villains heroes usually fight, and then they just dismiss the thought. Once again a common theme, the second All Might realizes he is Nana’s grandson he wants to go after Shigaraki to attempt to find him and reason with him only for once again Gran Torino to dismiss him as the kind of villain who’s beyond redemption and All Might to immediately give up on trying any other tactic than beating him down. 

Now why do I say Batman would have immediately gone after Shigaraki and tried to reason with him and get him the help he needs? Do I have proof of him acting similarly? Batman in fact, comes across a similiar enough situation in one of the most famous episodes of Batman the Animated Series. 

2. Man-Child meet Woman Child 

Baby-Doll Batman the Animated Series season 3, episode 4 is one of the most popular episodes, and it shows most clearly the way Bruce’s brand of heroics is ultimately based on saving and empathy for his villains rather than just putting them down for the greater good. I could have gone with a lot of batman villains with much more clear and tragic origins, Mr. Freeze isn’t even trying to achieve anything villainous he wants to save his wife. Two-Face started out as not only Batman’s best friend, but a good guy and an ally of justice who was driven to insanity by a horrifying and sudden tragedy. Harley Quinn is a victim of grooming and abuse similiar to Shigaraki who has her entire sense of self warped and controlled by an abusive narcissist who quite literally turns her into a crude relfection of himself, to act as a pawn in his own evil schemes. I could use a lot of batman villains, but no Baby Doll, we’re going with Baby-Doll. 

Mary Dahl is a washed up child actress with a physical condition that prevents her from growing up past a child, she’s sort of like Claudia from Interview with a Vampire, an adult mind inside a child’s body. Not only will she always be treated and regarded as a child for her physical appearance, due to her child as a former child star who’s show was cancelled and had no success in acting when she tried to do anything outside of playing the cutsey and innocent “baby-doll” on the sitcom “Love that Baby” she has ended up emotionally stunted and stuck in the past. 

Mary Dahl’s fall to villainry is a bit less tragic than Shigaraki’s, she wasn’t like kidnapped and groomed since childhood by a villainous mastermind and turned into his own pet “make your own supervillain” project. She’s not getting work, but she’s not poor or destitute, there are former child stars who lose out on their childhoods and have no money to show for it, but she seems to have enough money to at least have an extremely competent agent and money to blow on her elaborate schemes. Her backstory is not nearly as tragic as Shigaraki’s, yet she shows several symptoms in common with Shigaraki, being a former child star like many child stars she shows severe dysfunction as an adult because it ate up her entire childhood. Child labor is bad people. Children who are not given room to grow up and develop as kids, have problems late into their adulthood.

She is also someone who feels rejected and left behind by society as a whole, it’s clear her only way of connecting to other people was the attention she received as a child star and the connections she had with cast members. She also experiences severe body dysmorphia I would say on level with Shigaraki’s, Shigaraki’s body dysmporphia is so bad he constantly picks at his own skin, his quirk soemtimes even causes physical damage to him and he feels extreme nausea at a near constant basis b/c of his emotional unrest. Baby-Doll literally experiences a same incompatability with her body, she has an adult mind, she craves to be a fully grown normal body, and a lot of her mental breaks from reality seem to come from how easily people mistake her for and treat her like a child. 

Mary Dahl also shows severe dysfunction when it comes to regulating her own emotions. As tragic as Mary Dahl’s fall from fame is, and as much as it mirrors what happens to a lot of child stars in reality, Mary Dahl kind of also dug her own grave by her actions. Everyone on the cast thought she was notoriously difficult to work with, her show wasn’t cancelled on her, she left because the directors added in a new character she didn’t like and took attention away from her because of plummeting ratings. She left the show to try to take a more serious turn as an actor, once again to get attention and because she was on an ego-trip, then tried to get the show running again when it didn’t work for her but by that point it was too late. She’s also someone who just does not treat people well, she’s manipulative, she never engages people as her true self Baby-Doll is a role she is essentially playing, to both allow herself to violently lash out, but also to evade any responsibility for her own actions. It’s also ambiguous how much of the Baby-Doll persona is a genuine psychotic break (I don’t use the word psychotic lightly, I’m also not saying LOL look at her she’s so crazy, but there are genuine moments where Mary seems to mistake what happened on her TV show for reality which indicates that she’s not just trying to reclaim her former glory, that she is full on having delusions) there are also moments where “Baby-Doll” is a deliberate act she’s putting on, and Mary seems aware of what she is doing. 

Mary Dahl is at the same time, delusional enough to believe she can kidnap everyone on her former show, and force them to just pretend to be the characters they were on her show, and playing dollhouse with this pretend family will somehow fix her problems. She is also, lucid enough to carefully plot and execute the kidnapping of several people, control a minion in her agent, and then evade capture from Batman several times. She is both a victim (she’s genuinely mentally unwell) and a villain (but not unwell enough she’s not aware her actions are wrong, she’s deliberately hurting people she just thinks her tragedy makes her entitled to that revenge). Mary Dahl thinks the world has wronged her and left her behind, that her show being cancelled was some great injustice done to her, and something she deserves the chance to rectify, even though as I just explained in detail that Mary was equally as responsible for the cancellation of her show. She is a person not willing to take any responsibility for her actions or see fault in herself. 

You could even argue because of these quality Mary is way less sympathetic than Shigaraki, Shigaraki at least seems to have genuine critques about his society, and feels that he and the people around him have been rejected in an unjust fashion. Mary Dahl is upset her TV Show got cancelled and decided to make it everyone else’s problem. Mary Dahl’s problems are a lot more selfish, and smaller in comparison to Shigaraki’s, and yet the story itself does not downplay Mary’s distress because it is genuine to her. 

In one extent, Mary is a danger to others, but she’s also a danger to heserlf. Like I said, it’s ambiguous how much but she’s clearly a mentally unwell woman. When someone is experiencing delusions on that level it’s a brain chemistry problem, and it’s also not something where it’s fair to go “Well, she has no reason to be mentally ill, it’s not like she was beaten, she’s just having an emotional breakdown because she’s not famous anymore.” I mean, what does it matter the reason whether she’s having a breakdown is a good enough reason or not, she’s clearly in extreme distress. 

Number two, I think society as a whole tends to downplay the suffering of celebrities or child stars and make them seem like they are just entitled or spoiled for acting out, because they’re rich and famous and living a life most people would die for so who cares. But, HollyWood, the spotlight, and public scrutiny has a really bad psychological effect on people. Most people would not do well under such harsh public scrutiny all the time, and also when you make your entire personality around being a star and having the spotlight, also because in Baby Doll’s case there’s really no other career avaiable for her because of her condition then losing that is a pretty huge loss. Like, child stars who cannot either adapt to adulthood, cannot get work as adult actors, or just cannot even function as adults is a pretty common societal problem. 

On top of kidnapping people, holding them hostage, she’s also someone who clearly needs help, like Baby-Doll is not just doing these things because she’s a selfish, entitled brat throwing a tantrum because she’s not famous anymore, she’s experiencing clear mental breaks from reality where she confuses her tv show for reality, she’s mentally sick and in need of treatment. 

Baby-Doll is presented to us as a manipulative child star desperate for the spot light, endangering her cast because she herself cannot let go of the past for most of the episode, people around Bruce are pretty unsymapthetic to her, her attempts to get a more serious career is played off as a joke, the cast members do not like Baby-Doll and found her to be extremely high maintennance and difficult to work with even when she was on the show, Baby-Doll’s clearly not after the cast because of nostlagia, friendship or happy memories she has with her former cast members, but rather because she wants to pretend to be the the sitcom character who was surrounded by family who loved her. People constantly remark how crazy she is for thinking a tv show is reality. Even Robin says that he absolutely despised the “Baby-Doll” show, and it’s dismissed as kind of a cheesy sitcom with no real merit. 

However, the last five minutes turn all of that on its head. Bruce Wayne, my darling, is presented to us as a man of few words. We don’t actually see Bruce’s reaction to what Baby-Doll is doing for most of the episode, we see Dick’s who clearly thinks she’s just crazy, Bruce the whole time is focused on just resolving the incident first, finding the kidnapped people, rescuing them from Baby-Doll’s grip. So Bruce’s absolute first priority is just to stop the villain from doing the bad thing, he stops the bad behavior and makes Baby-Doll unable to hurt others. 

Bruce, the living embodiment of the term “Gap Moe”, because he is so closed off and not reacting to Baby Doll in any way, does not seem to be going out of his way to sympathize with her. That however, changes once the the threat Baby-Doll represents to others is neutralized. Baby-Doll then flees from Bruce with a Tommy Gun out into the middle of the night. The tables have turned and Baby-Doll has gone from a cackling villain, pretending often to be a scared little girl in order to manipulate people, to a genuinely scared and desperate person. Even the image Baby-Doll evokes fleeing from Bruce, is a sympathetic one, Baby-Doll despite being an adult woman still looks like a child, and acts several times like a woman-Child and she is fleeing from an adult man who picked his costume to terrify crimminals into submission. 

Baby-Doll flees into a carnival ground filled with children, she has a Tommy-Gun on her, she’s still pretty much a direct threat to others, but the way Bruce approaches her does a complete 180. Bruce is calling out after her to stop fleeing, when she disappears into a tunnel, he’s telling her to stop not because he wants to arrest her, but because she’s going to hurt herself at this point. Baby-Doll is no longer a danger to others, she’s a danger to herself because she’s scared desperate, and fleeing, and instead of pursuing her to put her down Bruce is trying to stop her from getting hurt as she flees. This is also behavior he has shown to repeat, in Harley’s Holiday he pursues Harley the whole episode not to stop her because she’s on a crime spree, but because she’s freaking out and he doesn’t want her to be sent to Arkham and lose all the progress she made in her recovery. 

Bruce pursues her into a mirror maze and this is where we get the most famous scene in the episode, Baby-Doll is still dead set on killing Bruce (this is also where Bruce shines, Baby-Doll is actively firing a gun at him and he is still calling out at her to stop because she might get hurt). 

Baby Doll fires at the mirrors over and over again, until one of the funhouse mirrors shows her what she might look like as an adult, at which point not only does Baby-Doll come to a complete stop, but she talks not in her Baby Doll voice, but as Mary-Dahl. 

Mary Dahl: Look. That’s me in there. The real me.  Mary Dahl: There I am... BUt it’s not really real, is it?  Mary Dahl: Just made up and pretend like my family, and my life and everything else.  Mary Dahl: Why couldn’t you just let me Make believe? 

She then grows angry at realizing that she is trapped on the other side of the mirror and will never exist in that adult body, she starts firing at every mirror around her trying to get batman who stalks her once again as an unspeaking shadow, until she gets impatient enough to destroy even the idealized image of herself represented in the funhouse mirror. At which point the gun itself runs out of ammo, and Mary breaks downc rying. At that point Batman could say that Mary is just throwing a tantrum, that being a washed up child star doesn’t entitle her to hurt others, he could say  that her tears aren’t even real because Mary Dahl has pretended to be a child in order to manipulate other people and merit sympathy literally this whole episode. Bruce does not do any of that. Bruce’s only action after following her this whole time, is to remove the gun from her hands so  she’s no longer capable of hurting someone, and then when she  hugs him, to return her hug and comfort her. 

Mary Dahl: I didn’t mean to... 

Because, utlimately she’s a human being who needs help. It’s not Bruce’s job to pick and choose who deserves that help, it’s his job to help people who need it. 

So yes, Bruce would have noticed right away that Shigarki wasn’t just a violent child, but a child who is clearly suffering from distress and lashing out. He wouldn’t just dismiss Shigaraki as an entitled man-child because as I’ve just demosntrated, Bruce had a situation where he frankly could have just dismissed Baby-Doll as a selfish an entitled vain womanchild and yet he didn’t do that. He saw a crying person in front of him, and he helped them, and he was even trying to help her before she started crying and asking for comfort like a more standard victim TM. Letting a child who shows clear signs of abuse like Shigaraki has go unhelped is not only out of character for Bruce, it basically is against everything he stands for as a hero. 

And if you still don’t believe me on that, here’s a quote from the director of the final installment of the popular Arkham Series, “Arkham Knight”, a game that features a character Jason Todd who was similiarly groomed over a long period of time by batman’s arch enemy into an enemy for batman to fight. 

[sassylittlecanary]

When people unironically ship Harley Quinn and the Joker, it’s a pretty dead giveaway they haven’t engaged with much DC media other than the 2016 Suicide Squad movie and probably only have surface level understanding of the characters. B:TAS (where Harley originated) and the rest of the DCAU explicitly acknowledged the Harley/Joker relationship as toxic and basically said “Harley deserves better.” Various pre52 comics addressed this as well. The past decade of comics has featured Harley and Poison Ivy as a couple, also recognizing Harley as an abuse survivor. This attitude is also present in the Harley Quinn cartoon, and in The Suicide Squad and Birds of Prey, and in basically every interview on the topic Margot Robbie has ever done.

Joker/Harley is more popular than it should be, considering its actual canon treatment. I don’t get it.

[teratocore]

It is funny bc when TNBA jumped right from Dick to Tim with a timeskip you know my ass is formulating how to fit Jason into the timeline while the show is just like “don’t worry about it :)”

[ticklinglady]

Hey fellas~!

Just out of curiosity, which one of the fictional versions of Akutagawa is your favourite? I'm pretty sure you all know the one from BSD, but what about the others? I bet it'll be an interesting compare them to many of you, so check out the ones, that I find to be the most curious depictions at the moment!

Akutagawa from BSD that we all know and love

Akutagawa from Bunal

Ryu-kun from TNH

Akutagawa from Mabun

And the last one for today, Akutagawa from Deductions of the great writer Akutagawa Ryunosuke (Hopefully, my translator did its job here well)

They all have such different vibes, I LOVE it XD Please enjoy them and tell your thoughts <3

P.S.

Ryu-kun is technically not Akutagawa, but rather the personification of the author's writings, as almost all other characters in TNH are, however he has much, much more to do with the real novelist than Akutagawa from BSD, who is on the list, so I thought it to be appropriate to include him too 🤭

[angstandhappiness]

True enough

I am. So fucking tired of Batman being portrayed as a bad parent and a toxic person. And it’s so goddamn widespread. Fuck, it might be as bad as the whole “Superman being a kindhearted Boy Scout is boring” take.

I get it, the man’s not exactly stable, he watched his parents get murdered in front of him and spent years of his life training to fight crime dressed like a giant scary bat, of course he’s not perfect.

But to say that Bruce Wayne isn’t caring, isn’t empathetic, to call him abusive…it just misses the point of who the character is to me.

Why do you think he fights crime? Yes, part of it is because he’s bitter and sad because his parents were cruelly ripped from him as a child, and he’s lashing out against the corruption of his city. It’s arguably the focus of his earlier years. But he learns to become more than that. He learns to bring hope, a chance to be better.

Harleen Quinzel is the Joker’s right hand lady, but she’s also a victim of an abusive relationship and a woman with a surprisingly strong moral compass and a love for animals, and wants to get better.

Harvey Dent is a man who will decide someone’s fate on a coin toss(and a pretty inaccurate depiction of DID), but he’s also Bruce’s close friend who clearly needs help learning to live with his condition, rather than try to get rid of it, and someone who he still goes out of his way to visit, even after everything.

Victor Fries is a cold, emotionless man who will callously discard allies and blame them for being careless, but he’s also a man who’s either lashing out because he had the love of his life taken from him, or just desperate to make sure she isn’t taken from him, and is willing to do anything just to guarantee her survival.

Even the Joker, arguably one of the most morally bankrupt characters in all of fiction, is someone that Batman has offered a chance to. After the guy shoots the daughter of his friend, a girl he cared for like she was his own kid, and paralyzes her from the waist down, he tells the Joker that he doesn’t want to hurt him. He wants to get him help. He looks at this monster who has taken countless lives and says “You don’t have to be alone.”

For fuck’s sake, he sat with Joe Chill in his last moments so that he wouldn’t be alone. Joe Chill, the man who murdered his parents, who took so much from him, the person responsible for all of the misery and suffering he’s gone through. And he sits with the man to comfort him while dies.

And you’re gonna tell me the man who did that would abuse his kids?

That he’d hold up the young man whose death was his greatest failure, the boy he grieved, and say this?

That he’d look his goddamn son in the eyes and say this to him?

Why the FUCK do you think he took in Dick Grayson in the first place? It wasn’t because he saw the kid and thought “Ah. A potential soldier.”, it was because he saw a boy experiencing the same heartbreaking loss he had so many years ago, and wanted to make sure he didn’t end up as bitter and miserable as he was.

Why do you think he smiled when Tim Drake presented him a broken watch for Father’s Day? Because he was just happy to see the boy alive and safe.

DAMIAN LITERALLY POINTED AT A COW AND SAID “I’m keeping her. She’s Bat-Cow.” AND BRUCE JUST WENT WITH IT. DIDN’T EVEN NEED TO ARGUE WHY BRUCE SHOULD LET HIM KEEP HER. HE SAID “this cow is my pet now” AND BRUCE SAID “alright, bet”.

The thing about Batman is that he wants to make sure nobody else ends up feeling the way he does. That’s not just about stopping a mugger so a boy’s parents aren’t gunned down. It’s about giving his loved ones the support and care that he couldn’t have, because it was taken from him. It’s about comforting someone who just went through a traumatic experience and letting them know that they’re going to be okay. It’s about going to someone locked away in a cell who thinks that they’re a lost cause and a burden to society and telling them that he wants to help them get better. It’s about EMPATHY.

That’s what makes him a HERO. He’s meant to inspire us, to show us that we can have that same empathy for others around us, that we can turn our suffering into hope for a better future.

I just wish more people at DC would start recognizing that. But I might as well follow that example myself. Maybe through this struggle of having to see this hero mistreat the people around him and act like a grade-A jackass, people will start to recognize that missing empathy, and slowly but surely, it might come back. After all, what is this post, if not trying to bring attention to the matter in the hopes of fixing it?

[jesncin]

I know you’ve covered ur thought on caped crusader a lot but what’s ur opinion on the setting/time period mostly just being used for the aesthetic?

I don't dislike their choice to set it in 40s noir since I enjoy a low-tech Batman and media that leans towards the Detective Noir side of Bats is always a classy choice. But yeah, it really was largely just for aesthetic and "this is the second coming of BTAS so here's that setting again".

Nothing about CC's world is thought through in a holistic way- it's just "BTAS but more diverse this time" and "we're very selective about what kind of bigotry exists in this setting". It's giving those kind of people who long for The Good Ol' Times because "the aesthetic was peak" or whatever romantic idea they've projected onto the past.

[artbyblastweave]

So far my against-the-grain take about Batman Beyond is that the implication that Bruce dated Barbara Gordon at some point after the events of BTAS is of course not great, if you're invested in Bruce as an uncomplicatedly morally upright figure who doesn't do shit like that. But I do think that it's got the potential to be fucked in really compelling ways if you have the balls to lean into it, like the implied codependecy of it.

And in the show as presented, Barbara Gordon as this recurring little Jiminy Cricket in Terry's ear telling him he's got to get the fuck out of there before Bruce fucks him up the same way the rest of them got fucked up is just *chef's kiss*

[poisonousquinzel]

Batman: The Animated Series: Death In The Family arc & Harley Quinn's involvement.

Hiiiiiii, I've been working on remaking a post and I wanted to briefly discuss this arc itself beforehand because of a panel that's being used in the other post. <3

So Ig to begin, in case you weren't unaware, the btas universe isn't technically over.

While the animated show has long since wrapped, Paul Dini has participated heavily in a continuation comic series that take place somewhere in the New Batman Adventures seasons.

(Side note: Batman: The Animated Series / The New Batman Adventures are the essentially the same show.

Wiki: Three years after the second season of Batman: The Animated Series ended production, the show was moved from Fox to The WB network, which was airing and producing Superman: The Animated Series. These shows were merged as part of an hour-long segment called The New Batman/Superman Adventures. The WB wanted more episodes of Batman, so 24 new episodes were produced, which featured a different format and more focus on Batman's supporting cast.

In addition to the network's demands, the producers decided to make the show match the graphic style of Superman, so all the characters and objects were redesigned with fewer lines, usually referred to by the fans and creative staff as the "revamp" (or alternately, the "new look"). A similar graphic style was used in the rest of the DCAU later on.

The entire series was released on DVD as Batman: The Animated Series Volume Four (From The New Batman Adventures), most likely to establish the connection with the original series.

Ex: Catwoman is shown in the first arc of these comics and she's based off TNBA's redesign.

-

So, the Death in The Family storyline. It starts off right from the bat in Season 1 of the comic.

This story is being told multiple years after it happened, all from what Alfred knows of the event. He's telling the current Robin what happened after it's been discovered that Jason Todd is alive.

The first appearance Harley has in this series is this moment.

"Well, well! Looks like the bat-brood is in serious need of family therapy."

"I happen ta know a good shrink..."

He explains that Jason ran away and quickly remade his public image, from Boy Wonder to Boy Barbarian.

This change was noted by the Gotham Rogues.

Batman gets Intel that Jason's next target is rumored to be The Joker. Cut back to Harley & that creep.

Now, even though they'd commented on him needing a shrink, that's not what they were doing that night.

Knowing Harley, this was a very special night for her. Their anniversary.

They were out for a romantic night on the town, or so Harley had hoped...

"Ya call this romance?! I get more affection dewormin' th' hyenas!"

"Oh, don't be such a party pooper, Pooh. Look! Something for you to snuggle when I'm out with the bat-boys."

Of course, The Joker being the stupid little bitch he is, the night doesn't scream romance or anything close and she's frustrated. She tells him off and storms off, Joker giving a loving "Yeah, you'll come crawling back. You always do!". what a charmer 🔪💀

"An' now I'm out! Sayonara, smiley! We're done!"

"Yeah, you'll come crawling back. You always do! Now where's that pesky whack-a-mole..."

"Who's crawling now, Puddin'?!"

"Give my regards to th' laffin' fish!"

That was just the start of their very public breakup. Ms. Quinn appeared intent on destroying every place they had gone as a couple.

Let's make it clear that Harley did not have some elaborate "Let's pretend to fight and break up and I'll go pretend to be mad and destroy shit until the Boy Barbarian shows up." Plan with Joker.

She was destroying stuff that reminded her of him and their time together because she was mad and hurt. That's it. This wasn't a ploy to get Jason out of hiding.

He just happened to show up.

"I'm single an' celebratin'! Whoopee cushions fer all!"

Of course, these shenanigans would bring her out into the open. As they did that evening when she decided to close down their favorite restaurant.

"Red hots! Get 'em while they're hot! Umphh!"

"And here I thought you only dated weiners."

"Back off, boy scout!!"

"Boy scout? You haven't been watchin' the news."

"Agh!"

"I'm a bad boy now. More your type. In fact, we got something else totally in common."

And The Joker just happened to feel like stopping him.

Though it's Very Very doubtful he did this out of a "oh no, my love, Harley, is getting hurt." It was an opportunity and he took it.

That's it.

It had nothing to do with Harley being in danger.

It also likely had to do with the fact that he heard Jason ask her about his location and he didn't want to risk losing whatever hideout they'd acquired this time.

So he shocks him, asking Harley if she's playing the field already.

"We both want to get rid of The Joker. Tell me where he is and you'll only wind up in the emergency room."

"How could a girl say no ta that?"

[Jason gets shocked by Joker.]

"Playing the field already, punkin-pie?"

"Oh, Mista J., You really do care!"

"Smucks, Harley-Mae, I cain't stay mad at you. I even brung ya some flowers from ma's garden. Ah-hyuck!"

"It was a...trick....uuhh..."

"On second thought, they're more fittin' on this here young fella. Now don't that look purdy?"

While Jason passes out believing it was a trick, it wasn't.

It was just bad timing.

Harley wanted a romantic night on the town, and when that didn't happen, she wanted to instead destroy all the places she'd been with Joker that reminded her of that relationship. That's the Only thing she wanted.

Maybe Joker had a plan, but it wasn't one she was privy to.

This isn't what's stated by Alfred, but frankly, that's understandable. He does have bias in this situation.

But what we're shown does not align with "So Harley lured Jason in and Joker sprang the trap."

I said it once and I'll say it again, as great as Alfred and Bruce are, sometimes, they aren't reliable narrators. It was the same thing in the Mad Love episode and, especially, comic. As the comic is the only one that's got their conversation about Harleen. In the episode itself, it cuts straight from the Dentist's office to Harley trying to be seductive.

I've talked about that comic and the themes here, here and here.

Anyway.

"I wanted a cheerful environment for our playdate. You've been a busy bird lately. And an unhappy one too, it seems."

"I'll feel better when my hands are around your neck!"

"There! You see? All that pent up hostility! The boy is obviously in need of help."

"Oh, if only there was a trusted professional we could call!"

"A-hem. The doctor is in!

In...sane, that is! And ca-raaazy t' help ya!"

"You're dead, Quinn."

"Oh my! Such violent psychotic tendencies."

"What do you make of him, doctor?"

"The patient has a history of acting out destructive power fantasies. No doubt the effect of a very toxic home environment."

"Knowing the father, I concur."

"It's clear that Batman's obsession with building a vigilante dynasty has driven him to make anyone a so-called Robin. Even an unhinged maniac like this."

"Yes, yes! I'm in complete agreement with your diagnosis. With an emphasis on the "Die"!

What we're faced with is a case of self-preservation.

Penguin nearly splattered into street pizza, Clock King almost losing his second hand...and poor Crocky! He'd be a matching set of luggage now if our rabid Robin's aim had been better.

Junior here has become a real plague on our kind.

[Hits Jason with the crowbar.]

Fortunately, I've got the cure!"

[Hit]

"Yowzie! That's gonna hurt in the morning!"

[Hit]

I think something else to note is that if Harley was in on this elaborate plan, she would have been aware of what The Joker planned to do. She wouldn't have clearly thought this was a typical "let's rough up the punk cause he's being a pain in the ass for all of us rogues."

She's here to mockingly diagnosis him and watch him get roughed up a bit for all the trouble he's caused to the criminals in Gotham.

That's it.

"Indeed it would! If he weren't going to that big birdbath in the sky tonight!"

[Hit]

"Laugh it up, bird boy! These are the jokes! Ha, Ha, Ha!"

[Hit]

"Wait!"

"How selfish of me! Have a whack at him, Pooh."

"Roughin' th' punk up is one thing, but killing him?!"

Because that Is what she thought it was. She makes that apparent in her reaction.

Joker doesn't appreciate her hesitation, or interruptions while he's beating him. So he has her thrown out by his henchmen.

"Did you think we were just going to give him a love tap and let him go?!"

Harley cowers as he physically leaned towards her, the crowbar still gripped in his hand.

"He won't stop until he's killed every one of us! You've seen what he's done! He begged for this!"

"But..."

"Get her out of here!"

"Don't touch me! Slimy creeps! I'll knock yer heads off!"

Harley's restrained and lifted out of the warehouse by two goons.

Batman is perched outside, presumably already searching for Jason.

"Batman later admitted that Quinn volunteered to help him stop Joker, though he wisely left her cuffed outside."

Batman: The Adventures Continue Chapters 10, 11 & 12

Written By: Paul Dini, Alan Burnett

Artist: Ty Templeton

Colorist: Monica Kubina | Letterer: Josh Reed

[spite-and-waffles]

Kevin Conroy agrees with you.

I don't know if this is a hot take? But there's something that bugs me about a lot of Batman performances: the dichotomy of his Bruce and Batman voices.

Now, hear me out. Batman absolutely should have a completely different voice from Bruce. Bruce is neurotic enough to develop two completely different idiolects for his identities. Anything to throw people off the scent, right?

However! Actors usually make the choice for Bruce to be the "natural" voice and Batman to be some sort of growling affectation. I personally think it would be better for Bruce to be the fake sounding voice and Batman to be his more natural speaking voice.

Imagine, Batman with a naturally deep and resonant voice that carries a lot of authority but very little emotion. Meanwhile, Bruce's voice is very Mid-Atlantic old money playboy with an almost breathy, ditzy quality. It's all emotion! No thoughts! Just enthusiasm and good natured smiles!

This is absolutely coming straight out of my "Bruce is neurodivergent" HC. A lot of us have a natural speaking voice that sounds off to others and a performative "public" voice that we've learned to use with people we don't know very well to put them more at ease. So, it's completely possible for Bruce's natural speaking voice to be a bit more flat and his words to be more fact based in a way that would make neurotypical people nervous. And, being Bruce, he would have absolutely studied other people's voice and behavior so that he could mimic it in public.

However, masking like that is very brain resource intensive, so it would have been an easy choice to drop that for Batman. This would also mean that in private, when it's just him and the family, he also uses the "Batman" voice because that's just what he sounds like when he's not trying.

This would also lead to hilarity when Bruce does crack jokes or tease people by intentionally using his Brucie voice when they're not expecting it. Like, imagine Batman, looking Flash straight in the eye as he shows up late to a team meeting FUCKING AGAIN, and saying, "You know, old chap, for The Fastest Man Alive, you certainly know how to take your dear sweet time." IMAGINE!

TLDR: Batman is the real voice and Bruce is fake and it kind of bugs me when actors do the opposite.

[linkspooky]

I know you already said in a post that Batman would empathize with Tomura so I wanted to ask you if you think Batman could empathize with the rest of the League.

Sure, there are plenty of parallels already between Batman's rogues gallery, and the League of Villains. Batman is characterized by his relationship with his villains, partly because he frequently shows empathy for his villains, considering how many of them are victims who've had "a bad day" just like Bruce did.

Toga Himiko and Harley Quinn

This is the most similar parallel between a batman rogue and Himiko, I already wrote a post about it here, more or less Harley and Toga live their lives in a twisted pursuit of love which would be an understandable motivation were it not for in pursuing their love they create many victims along the way as they violently lash out.

There is an episode of Batman the animated series called "Harley's Holiday" where Harley is given a clean bill of health and is discharged from Arkham Ayslum. Harley however, the next day is triggered when the shop attendant forgot to take the tags off a dress she legally purchased and the shoplifting detector went off, what specifcally triggers Harley is the idea that she's going to go down for a crime she didn't commit and be dragged back into Arkham. Harley has a bit of an emotional breakdown at this point and thinking she's going to be arrested, knocks down the security guard, takes a hostage to protect herself and runs out the store.

Harley: I just wanna live a normal life without some cop always pouncing on me.

Harley all day long runs with the hostage not because she's trying to hurt anyone, but essentially is having a breakdown and legitimately believes that she will be dragged back to Arkham for a crime that she did not commit. She even did not intend to hurt the girl she kidnapped and was planning on letting her go.

Batman follows Harley the whole episode, not because he wants to capture her and put her back in prison, but he's trying to de-escalate the situation and protect Harley so she doesn't lose the progress she's made.

Bruce: Listen to me. All the work you've done, your freedom. If you run away, you'll lose them Harley. You're so close to winning back your real life. Why risk it now?

It's worth bringing up that Himiko is also someone who was specifically failed by the social systems that were supposed to teach her how to use her quirk in a healthy way. Imagine, if after her first violent incident, instead of being thrown out by her parents, and pursued by the police to lock her up someone would have gone as far as Bruce did to remind Himiko that one bad day, or one bad deed shouldn't ruin your whole life. The goal of batman isn't to throw away his villains and lock away the key but to reform them, as shown by his last action in the episode buying Harley a dress and expressing empathy for her troubles.

Harley: Why did you stay with me all day, risking your butt for someone who's never given you anything but trouble? Bruce: I know what it's like to try and rebuild a life. I had a bad day too, once.

TWICE AND HARVEY DENT

Disassociative identity disorder? Check. Formerly good person who goes bad and suffers a mental breakdown after what was essentially an accident? Check. For Twice it's losing his parents, it's losing his job, it's deciding to steal to make a living only to have all his clones turn against him and forget what's the real one. Harvey starts out not only as a well-intentioned person, but a prosecutor trying to fight crime, and a close friend to Bruce Wayne.

The inciting incident to his villainry is a sheer accident, through no fault of his own. Harvey has problems with another personality, a repressed angry side, and is attending therapy to address it while the pressures of his outside life pile on and one violent accident that scars half of his face causes him to snap.

Batman's focus the entire episode is once again, trying to bring his friend back. In Harley's case especially he's suffering from a dissociative identity disorder which does not make him fully in control of his actions. It's not even a question of whether or not Harvey is past the point of no return for Bruce, but rather how he is going to bring him back.

Bruce: Wherever you are, whatever you've become, I will save you. I swear. "Two-Face Part II".

As Two-Face insists that Harvey is gone and no part of him remains, it's Bruce who refuses to give up on the idea that Harvey is still there, reminding him he still has friends.

Bruce: I want to help you. Harvey: Help me? You don't know anything about me. Bruce: I know that you have friends, Harvey. Friends who love and care about you. Harvey: Harvey's friends are no friends of mine. Bruce: What about Grace? Harvey: Grace? What do you know about Grace? Bruce: Every day, she waits and prays. She wants you back, Harv.

Once Harvey's attempts at revenge against the man who scarred him are stopped, there are follow up episodes like "Second Chance" that emphasize once again that Bruce is someone who believes in Harvey's ability to heal. When he's kidnapped just before getting face restoring surgery after making major progress in his therapy, Batman spends the entire episode trying to get him back and it ends again on this hopeful note.

Harvey: Bruce. Goold old Bruce. Always there. You never give up on me.

Bruce doesn't kill his villains because he doesn't believe he has the right to act as a judge on whether they have the right to redeem themselves or not, and in many cases he is actively in support of their rehabilitation and return to society. Compare the way Hawks handled Twice. He started off making an offer to redeem him, but unlike Bruce decided he was the one who had the right to choose who was worthy of redemption and who was not. He divides good people and bad people and decides Only Twice is worth redemption because he is good and his offer of redemption comes at the cost of selling out the league, and then goes straight to the murder option.

Batman doesn't act like he has the right to decide who gets saved, and who doesn't, whereas in hero society there's a pattern of regularly ignoring the help of people in need of they don't fit the image of a "good innocent victim."

"Well Batman wasn't fighting a war like Hawks was" go read the Injustice Comics, Batman's best friend Clark Kent becomes the literal dictator of the world and Batman is running a rebellion against him and the justice league and he still never chooses to kill anyone even if that would make the fight he is fighting a lot easier.

Jason Todd and Dabi

This one is a little bit harder to explain, because there's no under the red hood arc in Batman the Animated series which I am using as my main example because it's the most well known version of Batman. I did write an arc comparing Jason and Toya.

Under the Red Hood the storyline if anything is a well-written tragedy because it shows how much Batman failing to save Jason is a deviation of his true self, and his desire to save and reform his villains. Batman suddenly has trouble helping save an obvious victim, because of how much his own guilt complex and fear that he will lose Jason again is sabotaging his feelings. Batman isn't perfect after all.

However, I will say two things, if you read the original Death in the Family arc Bruce isn't a perfect parent but he is leagues better than Endeavor and he in fact was doing what he thought was best to help Jason when Jason started showing signs of instability.

His attempt to remove Jason from the Robin role was because he thought Robin was making Jason worse and Jason needed time to be a normal kid. Which is on a totally different level than what Enji did which is just throw away the kid he didn't need, and then make no attempt to help a kid who was reacting badly through sheer regret. If Batman had a kid reacting like Toya, he would have noticed and at least tried to help because at that point in the comics Batman was a flawed parent yes, but one actively trying to fix his mistakes and do better, as opposed to one who just ran away at every opportunity.

On top of that Bruce's hesitation the entire Under the Red Hood arc is about how much he mourns Jason, and how afraid he is of grieving him again. He fears that he can't save him while wanting to save him. Whereas, Enji really only cares about whether or not he can keep being a hero. Batman makes it clear by the end of the arc he wants to save Jason, he's wanted to the entire time.

Batman also, unlike Enji is capable of admitting that he can be the bad guy and that he can fail. Bruce also admit, and I think this is what makes him symapthize with his villains so much that he's not a saint or paragon of morality either, much like Jason he also feels tempted to put villains on the ground or that it would be much easier to just take justice into his own hands.

Part of what drives him to be a hero is because he's capable of imagining himself being the villain, that's why he relates to his villains and tries to help them instead of taking justice into his own hands. Whereas, Enji can abuse his family for years and be told several times that he chose being a hero over a father, only to believe he's still somehow the hero in this scenario. You have one who understands they failed their son and they could be a villain and the other who can never see themselves as the villain and instead villainize their son.

SPINNER VS KILLER CROC

As for Spinner the closest comparison I can come up with is Killer Croc, someone who is just a normal person with a birth defect that causes their skin to grow scales who was treated as a sideshow freak and continually dehumanized throughout all of their lives. This one is harder because Killer Croc doesn't really get many sympathetic episodes in Batman the Animated Series, in fact there's an episode I kind of dislike where Croc is taken in by freaks who treat him as human and accept him and then he turns on them. Which I think is kind of against the message of a lot of these Batman the Animated Series episodes, that these people aren't bad at heart but created by the circumstances they've endured in life.

If you dig around in the comics though there are times where Killer Croc is treated in a much more sympathetic light, in Suicide Squad he has a romance with Enchantress of all people which calms him down significantly because utlimately he just wants to be treated as a human from having people hurl abuse at him all these years and treat him as an animal because of his skin condition.

COMPRESS VS THE RIDDLER

Closest comparison I can come up with for Compress is the Riddler, because Compress to me of the league is the most "Bank Robber in a Silly Costume" themed villains. Riddler's obsession isn't really with harming people so much as creating elaborate riddles for Batman to solve.

When Paul Dini did a run on detective comics they explored Riddler from this angle, by have him giving up his identity as the Riddler and instead for awhile act as a private investigator who turned his same obsession in creating riddle themed crimes, to solving them instead. he even worked alongside Batman a couple of times.