#books: asoiaf: meta

[winterprince601]

unfortunately for jon snow, the role of "dead girl haunting the narrative" is already occupied by his mother, father, brother, sister, uncle, grandmother and step mother x2 so he's going to have to be forcibly resurrected :/

[knightingale]

The "Sansa reminds Sandor of his sister" motive that some people try to hitch to his character really just flies in the face of his actual attachments to her, doesn't it? Sansa reminds Sandor of himself. He sees the little boy who used to love knights in this girl who's been swept up by the same romanticism. He sees his abuser in her abusers, the much larger knight(s) beating on the helpless child. He sees how she is betrayed by every level of authority that should have saved her and remembers his father's neglect and Tywin and Robert's apathy for Gregor's crimes. He's protective of Sansa because he was Sansa.

And GRRM's design, that one of the strongest warriors in the series, a fearsome and cynical 6'8" guy who's "muscled like a bull" and has the face of death itself, sees himself in this soft and effeminate teen girl, and empathizes with her because he was an abuse victim too, is INFINITELY more compelling than "Oh yeah I bet she just reminds him of his sister," who he's never mentioned and who we know literally nothing about. Way to unnecessarily water down a character, you couldn't have ignored the black and white text more efficiently if you tried.

[sare11aa11eras]

Okay to further the argument: Ser Robert Strong/Gregor Clegane is both the worst Kingsguard and the pinnacle of the Kingsguard. He’s assaulted a Princess and murdered three members of the Royal Family (let’s leave aside the fact that the current Royal Family is not the same). He’s a serial killer. He is presented in Book One as the fundamental deconstructed truth of knighthood, the reason why the Hound exists and why Sandor can never be a knight. Gregor is the embodiment of the Lannister army in book 2. But then at the same time, he is the Kingsguard ideal— completely obedient, completely without thought, agency, interest, motivation, or qualm. Ser Gerold Hightower says that the Kingsguard are sworn to defend the king, not judge him. You know who will never judge the king? A brainless zombie. You know who can never object to a king’s order? A brainless zombie. You know who is really good at singlemindedly killing all physical threats?? A SEVEN FOOT TALL BRAINLESS ZOMBIE. Arys Oakheart almost got his charge killed because a hot girl told him to. Criston Cole started a civil war. Jaime Lannister killed the king to save the city. You know who’s not doing any of that? Robert Strong.

Visenya Targaryen had many legacies. Her son, Maegor the Cruel, bears a certain resemblance to Robert Strong, both being massive, strong, brutal, and cruel men with multiple wives, both probably the products of dark magic— which I find fitting because Robert Strong is the final essence of perhaps her most enduring legacy: the institution of the Kingsguard.

[drakaripykiros130ac]

Rhaenyra was rejected by her own throne. Her own dragron abandons her. The smallfolk loathed her, even the Lords that once supported her claim rescinded their own alliance to her cause. She may have had a rightful claim, but was never a deserving or worthy one.

1. It’s a throne made out of sword blades. Spare me the theatrics. Her getting cut is pure gossip, nevertheless, and the way it was written in the book leads to much speculation (She wears armor and gets cut?? Huh??) The maesters would say anything against her.

2. Her dragon abandoned her? And that happened when…in your dreams, maybe? Syrax never abandoned her. She was fighting for her life because fanatics thought that the answer to all their problems was the murder of innocent creatures held in chains.

3. The smallfolk loathed the Greens (particularly Aegon and Aemond) and they cheered when Rhaenyra took King’s Landing. What they grew to loathe was their situation. The Greens impoverished the Realm and Rhaenyra was left to clean up the mess and suffer the consequences. The smallfolk’s anger should have been directed at the people who started the war (the Greens). But they didn’t care about that. Whoever was sitting the throne at the time had to pay the price, and unfortunately, it was Rhaenyra.

4. The lords rescinded their alliance…what? Have you actually read the book or are you only skipping to the parts that interest you?

She never lost support. Her lords fought for her cause even after her death, and won. Reread the Battle of the Kingsroad, the final battle of the Dance which cost Aegon the throne, and granted the Blacks victory.

5. At least you admit that she is the rightful ruler. As for being “worthy”, that is a strange choice of word to use for a woman who had to fight for her rightful claim, and was put in very unfortunate and undeserving positions. Rhaenyra was never given a clear shot at being a ruler, so you cannot judge her capabilities. When she took the Iron Throne, the coffers were empty and she still had a war to deal with, not to mention tired and hungry smallfolk.

What is clear is that she had far more experience in governing than her half-brother.

By comparison, the Greens had a disabled and incapable ruler who drank and spent time harassing women, a mad woman for a queen and a psychopath on the biggest dragon threatening to burn everything in his path. Not to mention a greedy queen mother who only cared about advancing her own House.

Seriously. Read the book.

[nobodysuspectsthebutterfly]

Hello, what is goetd super race theory?

In the world of ASOIAF, the Golden Empire of Yi Ti, far to the east, is a pretty blatant expy of China. One of their myths -- and it is only their myth, nobody else's -- is the Great Empire of the Dawn, the legendary empire that preceded their own. The Yi Ti imperial dynasties are named after colors (for example, Lo Tho, Lo Duq, Lo Han, and Lo Bu were Scarlet Emperors), but their mythological ancestors were named after various gemstones. The Great Empire is pretty obviously based on the Chinese myth of the Three Sovereigns and Five Emperors, and is perfectly straightforward worldbuilding. There's some interest to current ASOIAF since the end of the Great Empire of the Dawn is connected to Yi Ti's legends of the Long Night, and since the Pearl Emperor established the Five Forts (a historical echo of the Wall and likely serving a similar purpose), but that's about all that's really relevant.

However. Because Dany's dream of her Targaryen ancestors used gemstone colors to describe their eyes, a theory has been built up that the Great Empire of the Dawn was not merely Yi Ti (Chinese) mythology, but the ancestors of Valyrians from millenia ago. According to the theory, this master race also founded House Hightower and House Dayne and thus they look Chinese no wait sorry they're all silver-gold haired and purple eyes except they're not, like you'd think if those particular traits were meant to be relevant for House Hightower they would have been mentioned once in all of ASOIAF (excluding Alerie Hightower, who's in her 40s and thus her silver hair may just be prematurely grey).

I find this theory to unfortunately echo various "master race" elements of Theosophy and Nazi race science, in addition to erasing the actual our-world cultural inspiration of the Great Empire. (This sort of thing is why an artist decided to make the Maiden-Made-of-Light, a Yi Ti goddess, a blonde white girl and based on Selene, instead of, idk, Ameratsu or Doumu.) I really truly dislike the theory and everything connected with it, and the fact that it's all built up over a misreading of one line makes it all the more frustrating to me. Like, I don't care for a particular theory Youtuber for most of his crack nonsense, among other reasons, but this one is especially bad.

Of course, the fact that House Hightower also gets hit with the Citadel-related southron ambitions theory and maester anti-magic conspiracy theory, which do have some standing, but have been blown up by paranoid ASOIAF video theorists on youtube and Tiktok to make them the eugenical secret breeders of all the noble houses and the secret reason for anything bad that ever happened to House Targaryen ever and the manipulators of all historical texts so the only true facts are the ones that put your blorbos in a good light, to the point that I've started calling this paranoia "the Protocols of the Elders of Hightower" -- anyway, the fact the Hightowers have these diametrically opposed fan theories attached to them, is something I'd find hilarious if it didn't depress me so much about fandom. 🤷‍♀️

[witchlingcirce]

Sansa getting Jeyne Pooles storyline in the show actually makes me so mad!

Even with the way Sansa is at the end of the story, it legit would have made more sense for her to stay at the vale and be an apprentice under little finger!! And also the fact they not only waited for Sophie Turner to turn 18, they also lied to her and told her she would be getting a really good love interest 🤨

Sophie Turner you deserved Harrold Hardying and also deserved the Vale storyline

[fromtheseventhhell]

Unlocked a new piece of "Arya can't control herself' lore and, apparently, people think her ability to control herself comes from her pretending to be someone else. So it isn't Arya who has self-control, it's Arry/Weasel/Nan/etc. and that's why she wouldn't be able to control herself in KL, cause she couldn't handle being "Arya". I am fascinated by people twisting themselves into pretzels to deny Arya's capabilities, at this point it's an unhealthy compulsion 😭

[sad-endings-suck]

Me: *is sad*

Me: *Remembers that both Dany and Sandor are horse girls.*

Me: *is less sad*

[dragonseeds]

what are your thoughts on rhaegar and lyanna?

oh i love them! there’s all this talk of them haunting the narrative and they do, but i’d take it further and say they are the black hole at the center of the story. the choices that they made, starting with lyanna’s decision to defend howland reed and what that meant to both him and rhaegar, who was very likely at his lowest point at harrenhal after the ruination of his careful plans, touched or changed the lives of every character and plot line in the series. the story itself is such a fun mashup of tristan and iseult, lancelot and guinevere, helen and paris, the fall of camelot and all of arthuriana really, the classic trope of the princess in the tower and the dragon and the knight: all of that in one couple and we don’t get to experience any of it with them. we can guess and speculate, but we can never truly know them. we experience their story only through the memories the people who survived the war they ostensibly kicked off, and those memories are all heavily colored by trauma, guilt, nostalgia—alternately faded and sharpened by time. it’s this incredibly fun and brilliant reconstruction of some of the most enduring tragedies in folklore and mythology and i adore it.

hate beyond articulation the way asoiaf.tumblr.edu approaches their relationship and the individual characterizations of both of them, though. just absolutely some of the most insufferably sanctimonious disingenuous decontextualized analysis i’ve ever experienced—much of that coming from people viewing this through a historical lense instead of a thematic one. like, imagine approaching the battle of the trident as “rhaegar is a bad person for fighting for his father who was evil! he lost the moral high ground with that one” as opposed to “rhaegar as a character exists to fail and die; he was the last dragon, carrying the unbearable weight of his family’s legacy and the burden of the prophecy for which they conquered westeros: the end of his life is the end of the targaryen dynasty. he must fail and he must die, so that dany and jon can grow up free of that weight and that power. daenerys gets to redefine what it means to be targaryen on her own terms. she and jon separately and unknowingly do the things that he thought he had to do—the things he was conceived and born to do—but never knew how: they do it because of their circumstances, because of the people that they have grown into, because they believe it is their duty, because they have the power to do it.” also, like, re: interpretations of battle of the trident, is there maybe another battle that occurs later in the series that is exactly the same thematically and contextually? where perhaps a character who was missing for a while shows up on the eve of battle, knowing that the opposition is right and their cause is just but that his family will die if he doesn’t fight with them? anything that adds an extra layer of meaning to what happens, aside from dany’s own connection—which is not as thematically similar but is still incredibly meaningful. like i certainly don’t think there’s any one interpretation of a character or story, but the worst ones are consistently applied to rhaegar.

and then with lyanna in particular, it’s like people cannot stomach her or find her sympathetic as a character unless they’re wallowing in her eternal victimhood. the constant dismissal of the importance of lyanna’s actions and what they meant to rhaegar is pure misogyny, by the way. her choices and her agency, the inherent meaningfulness of the struggle for both of those things in a system that seeks to reduce her to her body and the use men can make of it—all of that is important. the person she was and what that meant to people was important, but from the way i most often see her discussed, it’s like her gendered death is the only thing that matters. it’s okay to lament her because she got crushed by the wheel. if she hadn’t, if she wasn’t a victim to write flagellatory meta about, she would be a hypocrite, someone who needed to learn a lesson—as difficult for some of these people to relate to as dany or rhaenyra apparently are.

like, it’s just wild to me because her kindness to howland reed and her choice to defend him, to disguise herself as the knight of the laughing tree and risk her life and reputation to fight for him—is the answer to and the embodiment of one of the most thematically significant questions in the series. we see it most prominently in dany’s chapters because she asks it directly: why do the gods make kings and queens if not to protect the ones who can’t protect themselves? that’s what lyanna did, when no one else was doing it: she had more honor than any knight at that tourney or any man sitting on the small council, and it meant something to rhaegar. like what about this is hard to understand? i think he must have idealized her immediately: she must have seemed like something out of a song or a story to him, and rhaegar was a singer, a songwriter, a bard: he knows how stories are supposed to go—how to finish a song, or at least he thought he did.

bran, who also loves stories, says it himself: “and the mystery knight should win the tourney, defeating every challenger, and name the wolf maid the queen of love and beauty.” like obviously bran has some critiques i cut out, but he has the ending right—only the wolf maid was the knight, and she couldn’t have won. in the feudal gender prison, women are rewarded for being beautiful and their worth is derived from that and from what their bodies provide. she should’ve won the whole thing, but the system doesn’t allow that, so rhaegar—in a fit of single-minded capital r romantic hero idiocy—dedicates himself to winning the tourney to honor her in the only way he can: the only way the system allows him to recognize her. it was the worst possible move he could make at that time because of the romantic connotations, but i love him for doing it, as stupid as it was and even though there is no way it didn’t hurt and humiliate elia, or make him look terrible when he desperately needed to make a good impression on the lords of the realm—it’s just such a Moment. being reminded that there’s good in the world—feeling hope in the face of endless abject overwhelming despair—how do you express gratitude for that? the idea that he could only doing it by hurting someone who didn’t deserve it and making himself look like an ass is fucking awesome. i’m genuinely so sorry for people are incapable of enjoying that. could not be me!

but that’s just my interpretation of what happened at harrenhal. like i said, part of why i like them so much is that we truly don’t know. while i love darker relationships in general, the idea that he crowned her at harrenhal because he wanted to impregnate her then does not work for me. it’s a popular theory, but it renders some of the very few contextual clues we are given about what happened meaningless. for one, he didn’t know that elia wouldn’t be able to have more children at that time. this was discovered after she gave birth to aegon, and that is the point at which the question of the third child appears to have become a motivating factor for him. i personally think he left for the riverlands to consult with the ghost of high heart—the one whose prophecy is the reason he was born, the reason is parents were forced to marry, the reason his family burned alive the night he came into the world—and ran into lyanna somewhere near harrenhal. it’s possible he had been in contact with her prior to this (how? without her family knowing? what are the logistics of that?) but i think it’s just as likely it was pure chance. i really like the idea that his crowning her queen of love and beauty caused lyanna’s father to set a date for her wedding to robert or talk of moving it up, maybe even suggest a double wedding at riverrun, which would have almost certainly caused her to balk. either way, high heart is located between harrenhal and riverrun. arya also stops there while she’s kidnapped by the brotherhood without banners on the way to ransom her to her family at riverrun, and they trade songs to the ghost for her dreams and prophecies. i think it’s worth noting because arya’s journey in the riverlands mirrors lyanna’s right down to her “death” as arya stark when she leaves for braavos, paying the ferryman’s fee with the coin jaqen h’ghar gave her—just as jon’s journey at the wall mirrors rhaegar’s in many ways right up until his own death.

i also don’t think rhaegar and lyanna eloped because they were in love—this is implied by lyanna’s famous quote—but that they did come to love each other deeply, which is suggested by the way they died: her roses and him saying her name. notably, rhaegar did not leave the tower of his own volition—someone had to come and get him with news of war, which is hilarious because i think the tower of joy is right in the middle of like three major battles of the rebellion? like quite frankly, if he didn’t love her or care for anything beyond the prophecy and if she didn’t love him despite how badly things went wrong, then where in their story is the heart in conflict with itself?

i do want to clarify that i love the tower entrapment and the power imbalance aspects of their relationship as much as i love (what i interpret as) the genuine respect for each other that grew into love: it’s really the tension of those disparate elements that interests me. a dragon can love the maiden, but he’s only ever a dragon—still liable to hoard her like treasure or burn her up and rip her open trying to be gentle, to protect. that FUCKS, sorry! love is sweet and hopeful, but it’s also at exactly the same time horror, consumption, destruction.

idk it’s myopic to act like the beginning or the ending of their relationship—of their lives—is the summation of it. i think people want their story to be easy when it’s not: a clear case of a villain and his victims where everyone knows who to root for and no one has to think too much about things that are difficult or uncomfortable, questions where there probably isn’t an answer that doesn’t hurt someone. what a sad, tedious way to approach any text, but specifically this one. i’ve sometimes seen it suggested that if their story is romantic then it’s an endorsement or justification of all the “bad” things that happened because of it, and that’s also stupid. grrm as an author is never going to be someone who tells us how to feel about anything: he presents these characters and situations, often as a means of exploring certain facets of the human condition, and each of us has to come up with our own answers and find our own meaning. i don’t think he always knows what he means, or what those answers are, you know? but for me rhaegar and lyanna are one of the most fascinating parts of story, and whatever the truth is—if we ever find out—i can’t imagine a scenario where i don’t love them or find them really interesting and wonderfully sad.

[the-lake-lily-alchemist]

Dany’s vision of Rhaegar in the HotU

So, I want to beat an already dead and over-beaten horse, and talk a bit about Dany’s vision of Rhaegar in the House of the Undying.

Now, I want to preface it by saying that I know this subject has been talked about thousands of times and it’s boring and tiring to talk about the same shit over and over again, but I just saw “Rhaegar is a prophecy-obsessed groomer/rapist” discourse on my twitter feed and thought I’d toss my two cents in.

Firstly, let’s look a bit at this vision as it appears in the books, shall we?

Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brother’s hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. “Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?”

As we can see here, Dany, on her quest to find her children, stumbles upon this little moment long past. The text tells us that the three people shown here are Rhaegar, his wife Elia, and their son Aegon.

“Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked.

“He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany’s, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door.

This passage specifically has been interpreted numerous times. The text tells us that Rhaegar thought that his son, Aegon, was The Prince that was Promised. However, Rhaegar looks up when he says the prophecy, and looks directly at Dany, as if talking to her.

This to me reads as not-very-subtly being told the answer to the prophecy. Dany is TPTWP, as the author tells us through vision-Rhaegar. Thus, she is made aware of the prophecy, part of which we can find in the title of the book series.

I’ve seen the theory that Rhaegar seeing Dany was a time-space continuum bubble, of the present looking at the past, or, for Rhaegar, the present glimpsing at the future. How I see it, however, is that when he says those fateful words, and looks up to meet his sister’s eyes, he becomes both the gods’ and the author’s channel to make Dany and the reader aware of the answer to the prophecy. He sceases to be just a vision of the past and becomes the gods’/R’hllor’s voice, informing Dany. He tells her about the PTWP prophecy, because she is TPTWP!

Thus, when he continues with this,

“There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads.”

we can infer that he’s saying this to Dany, because the gods want her to know this (and the author wants us to know this).

Mind you, these are visions, not just excerpts from the past/present/future. The conversation as it’s shown might not have taken place exactly like this, if it ever did. With how abrupt the cut from Rhaegar saying this to him going and playing the harp, I think he’s never said those words himself. Again, I believe that, in that moment (given that “There must be one more” and “The dragon has three heads” do not tie at all with the PTWP prophecy), it’s the gods using this vision of him to tell Dany (and the reader) an important message.

I shall say it one more time, just to be perfectly clear: IT’S NOT RHAEGAR TALKING ABOUT THE THREE HEADS AND A THIRD CHILD, IT’S THE GODS!

“There must be one more”, because Rhaegar has three children, not just two. Dany is fated to meet Rhaegar’s third child (and very probably fall in love and marry said third child, but that’s another overly-beaten, dead horse), and we as readers have been getting clues about who this child is since book one.

In no passage is it stated or implied that Rhaegar sought to have another child. He doesn’t go on and say, “When the maester has cleared you, we shall try for a third.” or “Because you can’t get pregnant again, I shall look for another woman to bear my third child.” The theory that he wanted another one, presumably a girl, to name her Visenya, is just that, a fan theory.

“The dragon has three heads. There are two men in the world who I can trust, if I can flnd them. I will not be alone then. We will be three against the world, like Aegon and his sisters.” (ASOS, Dany VI)

It’s clear (or it should be) that “the dragon has three heads” it’s specifically for Dany to know that there are two people out there whom she can trust and with whom she shall stand “against the world, like Aegon and his sisters.”

It’s not about Rhaegar thinking that his children are “the three heads of the dragon”. It’s about Dany. You would think it’s obvious given that it’s her chapter, but whatever.

[umbralsong]

I'm rewatching this mainly to study the components adapted by D&D regarding the Meereen plot with the slavers.

Dany was necessarily aged up, they adapted the Dothraki to be somehow more orientalist and racist than the books (no word for "thank you?" gtfo), and completely neglected Dany's own relationship with being enslaved. Even the most crucial aspects of her early abuse are hand-waved, even when there is a literal in-text comparison to Dany and Khal Drogo's enslaved people wearing golden collars.

GRRM famously wondered what made Aragorn a "good" king, and wondered about his tax policy. Here, he adapts it by having Dany's freed advisor, Missandei of Nath, tactically hit the slavers where it hurts - taxes. People can sell themselves into services, but former enslavers can't sell those they used to own, and husbands cannot sell wives. However morally dubious, these policies have a chilling effect on the trade. There are many unhappy components to Dany's compromise with slavers, but it is my opinion that GRRM is demonstrating the limits of compromise with people who don't believe in the humanity of others.

My research means there is a lot I can go into (like the inherent racism of the whole plot), but I feel the most crucial is the fact D&D, Confederate sympathizers that they are, distilled Hizdar's character to Brown Face to pretend that Dany is a white settler colonizer Just As Bad as the slavers for taking away their sacred fighting right of watching poor people butcher each other and laughing as helpless people are eaten by lions :(((

[ride-thedragon]

NETTLES AND RACE.

It is a shorter analysis but a needed one. The way that Nettles race plays into her interpretation throughout the narrative is interesting.

Obviously, she is a mystery throughout the narrative. We don't know much about her, and what little we do know is often contradictory within the written narrative. But her race plays a part in that.

When we look at who's writing the story, we are being told what occurred through very specific lenses. Septon Eustace, Maester Gyldayn, and Mushroom are all men, from different backgrounds, but men in this world none the less, white men (andals) at that.

So we see their bias when it comes to Rhaenyra no longer being beautiful because she kept the weight after having children.

Or with their depictions of Alicent and Helaena or the twins with their one isn't fit to be heir she won't listen, yadda, yadda, yadda....

Bias occurs.

With Nettles in the narrative, however, her being a woman, poor and black, all play a role in the intersection of her identity.

There is nothing about her when it comes to her description that suggests she's dirty, filthy, or promiscuous, and the people who describe her as such weren't around her in the time period they were describing.

'She slept with shepherds for sheep' while having the markings of a thief in their world.

She is filthy, yet the only time we get an in world description of her cleaning habits, she's bathing with a prince and getting things (hair brush, mirror) to maintain her appearance.

Like, I hate to be the one to say it, but let's think about these conclusions logically.

There would be an intersectional bias with Nettles in the narrative. She's looked down on because Septon Eustace decides to play guessing games with her backstory and then uses his own unconfirmed deduction to say what could've happened in Maidenpool.

Even in Maidenpool, they call her the brown child, Daemon cares for.

I don't think this is something that exists in a bubble, and I think the narrators of fire and blood are given a clear bias so before we jump to conclusions about Nettles, remember that the way she is written isn't from her perspective or with her input. It's by men who didn't know her and never recount an in person interaction with her. Not even a quote she might have said.

Also, not to hype up George, but the man clearly loves his history, so I beg anyone who thinks I'm reaching to look up how black women (any woc could work) are written by white scholars and then how mistresses are written about in history and let the thought marinate.

[sarahreesbrennan]

The Before Picture

So… TIME OF IRON. The book within the book of LONG LIVE EVIL. Book 1 in the Once and Forever Emperor series. An epic popular fantasy series about gods and monsters, old sins and dark secrets. Starring the most beautiful and doomed lady in the world, the loyal white knight who can defeat anyone in battle, and the ruler whose coming has been prophesied for centuries. A little Game of Thrones, a little Wicked, a good bit of Arthuriana and the Lord of the Rings, and a little whatever you thought when you read ‘epic popular fantasy series.’ It’s not about the love triangle, but its readers discuss the love triangle frequently. You’ve got a vast and varied cast of characters, living on the edge of a dread ravine filled with flame. Wars from within and without. Many shocking deaths. Every reader has a different favourite character. Nobody is expecting a happy ending. And everything is about to change… @vkelleyart did amazing work with the green crystalline throne room as well as the characters, each fulfilling a traditional role yet each with their own energy. If you want to see this story overturned, you could preorder…

[drakaripykiros130ac]

One thing that genuinely astounds me is how certain people are under the impression that Aemma Arryn and Alicent Hightower are equal victims, who would comfort each other in the afterlife for what “big, bad” Viserys did to them.

As if Queen Aemma wouldn’t pull Alicent’s hair by its dark roots for what she did to her only daughter, Rhaenyra.

But seeing as how Alicent is in the Seven Hells, Aemma likely wouldn’t get her chance.

[nobodysuspectsthebutterfly]

hello, I've sort of migrated here from Twitter. If you have the time I was wondering if the things I got from twitter/tiktok are correct.

In the books valyrian's are the only people in world who can bond with dragons?

In the books Targs are immune to heat/fire and sickness because their blood is magic?

Hightower's tower was made with dragon fire despite it predating Valyria?

There are other buildings around the world in asoiaf which also used dragon fire but also predate Valyria and their dragons?

Someone told me on tiktok that the OG asoiaf dragons went extinct and Valyrian magicians bred other magic creatures together until they got their version of dragons?

thank you for any help 🙏. I want to get around to reading the books but it's kinda daunting because there's so many of them and they're long and I'm a slow reader 😭

Hey, welcome to Tumblr! (Hope you survive the experience.) Sure, I can answer your questions (certainly better than tiktok and twitter lol sigh), but I do definitely recommend reading the books! Some people find it easier to go with audiobooks (I personally don't, since auditory processing isssues make me tune out in five seconds, same with podcasts, sigh), and that might be a big help for you? But anyway, answers below...

1. Yes... um... it's a question. It's stated that Valyrians are the only ones that can bond with dragons, and furthermore, only ones from the dragonriding families of Valyria. (This is part of the "Doctrine of Exceptionalism", which I'll describe later.) The "dragonseeds" who rode dragons during the Dance were supposedly bastards or descendants of bastards of Targaryens (I'll get to the details in a moment), and we have the example in the current books of Brown Ben Plumm, who Dany's dragons adore, and he is an extremely distant (by like 120 years) descendant of Elaena Targaryen and Aegon IV Targaryen.

However, the dragonseed and dragonrider Addam of Hull, per the histories a bastard of Laenor Velaryon (son of Rhaenys Targaryen), was almost certainly actually the bastard of Corlys Velaryon, and the Velaryons were not a dragonriding family. Though it's possible that one of the pre-Conquest Targaryen ladies married into House Velaryon, so it's not that exceptional. The greater problem is the dragonseed Nettles, of no known background, called out by the narrative as looking distinctly un-Valyrian (she's brown, and note the Velaryons are white in the books), who tamed her dragon by feeding it sheep until it started to like her. Many theorize that while Valyrian blood makes it easy to bond with dragons (due to likely blood magic/genetic bonding with dragons in ancient times, as they claim to be descended from dragons), it is still possible to create that bond the hard way, as the early Valyrians were once a mere tribe of shepherds who discovered dragons nesting in a local chain of volcanoes. The full answer is one of the greater mysteries of ASOIAF, and will hopefully be resolved in later books. (Along with whoever the riders of Dany's other two dragons will be.)

2. Per GRRM, Targaryens are not immune to fire, but they do have some heat resistance, and enjoy things like hot baths and hot weather. The only one actually immune to fire was Dany, and specifically only during the miracle of her dragons' birth. (During her taming of Drogon right before she rode him the first time, she received burns on her hands.) Many Targaryens have died or been injured by fire, including Viserys Targaryen (Dany's brother and his "golden crown"), Aerion Targaryen (he drank wildfire because he thought it would turn him into a dragon. It didn't), Rhaenys Targaryen the Queen Who Never Was, Daeron "the Daring" Targaryen, Aegon II Targaryen, and Rhaenyra Targaryen.

As for illness, the "Doctrine of Exceptionalism" was a religious precept that King Jaehaerys I worked out with the Faith of the Seven, to give the Targaryens an exception on the Faith's anti-incest stance. It stated that Targaryens were different, exceptional, special people, closer to gods than men, because of their unique silver-gold hair and purple eyes, because they alone rode dragons, and because they never got sick. "There was fire in the blood of the dragon, it was reasoned, a purifying fire that burned out all such plagues." However, only a few years after Jaehaerys made this agreement (and married his sister Alysanne), their 7-year-old daughter Daenerys died of the Shivers, a severe-flu-like epidemic. (This put great doubt in their heart, but did anyone do anything about it? lol no.) Their daughter Maegelle later died of greyscale, and their son Baelon died of appendicitis. Later Targaryens have died of other epidemics, of the pox, of tuberculosis, and other diseases.

However -- some Targaryens have shown surprising resistance to illness. Aegon III sat with many victims of the Winter Fever epidemic, and never showed any symptoms. Dany herself cannot recall ever getting sick. (She is not immune to being poisoned, though.) There may be something specifically connected to being a dragonrider (though Baelon was one), or more specifically being a potential Prince That Was Promised? Again, this is connected to the greater mysteries of ASOIAF, to be resolved later.

3 & 4. The base of the Hightower -- not the tower itself, but its first level -- is an ancient fortress made of fused black stone, which is similar to Valyrian construction made by melting stone with dragonfire (such as the castle of Dragonstone, the walls of Volantis, and the Valyrian roads). However, it predates the Valyrian empire by millennia, and is plain without decoration, unlike how the Valyrians would twist the melted stone into artistic forms. There are also other ancient structures in the world, the Five Forts on the eastern border of Yi Ti, that are also made of this fused black stone in this plain style. Some maesters also think the Hightower fortress's labyrinthine design is similar to the Mazes of Lorath, also ancient structures, made by a vanished giant not-quite-human species (called the Mazemakers) in pre-history. GRRM has said "there were dragons everywhere, once" (there are indeed records of dragons in Westeros before Valyria, and dragon bones found in far distant places in the world) and the truly ancient Asshai'i histories claim to have taught the Valyrians the secrets of dragons, so there's a theory that there was a dragonriding culture long before the Valyrians who left behind these fused black stone structures. (More on this in the next answer, and you can see an older theory post of mine on the subject here. Also note I am certain this culture was not the Great Empire of the Dawn, they're unrelated.) One more great mystery!

5. Yeeahh... this may be true. Or it might not be. Septon Barth (Jaehaerys's Hand of the King, and a great researcher into the origins of dragons, with theories that made maesters call him crazy and the Faith burn his books) apparently theorized in his Unnatural History that the Valyrian dragons may have been created via bloodmagic, possibly by breeding wyverns (flying reptiles that do not breathe fire), possibly with firewyrms (wingless/legless earth-boring creatures that do breathe fire). There's also (as I said above) Valyrian legends that claim they found dragons nesting in the Fourteen Flames, but ancient texts from Asshai claim that dragons first came from the Shadow (the mountains around Asshai), and an ancient nameless people brought them to Valyria and taught the Valyrians the magic needed to control them. And there's a myth from Qarth that there used to be another moon that cracked open like an egg and millions of dragons came out. We do not yet know the true answer.

GRRM recently said "Septon Barth got most of it right", but what is "most"? Was there an incredibly ancient vanished species of dragons that the original Valyrians re-created? Did these Valyrians somehow breed these new dragons with themselves to make them easier to control? What we do know is that occasionally Targaryens have had monstrous dragon-like stillbirths. We do know that very rarely a dragon egg has hatched a "broken thing" that dies quickly, or a monstrous wingless wyrm that attacks its cradlemate, with no known reason why. We know that in the ruins of Valyria since its Doom, there are apparently mutated creatures that can lay eggs containing "worms with faces" and "snakes with hands" in human flesh, a horrific experience witnessed by Septon Barth that sent him on his path. It's a great great mystery, and there will apparently be an answer one day.

BTW, many of these huge mysteries were introduced in The World of Ice & Fire, if you want to read just one book. However, TWOIAF is not a story like the actual books, it's a history/geography book, and if you want more than lore, if you want addictively enjoyable characters and amazing dialogue and a truly excellent story, again I highly recommend reading the main books. The lore and the mysteries are very interesting, sure, but they're not what's really kept me in this fandom for 13 years now, you know?

[queerquaintrelle]

Arya Stark Week 2024: (mythological) parallels

Arya Stark paralleled by Freya / Freyja (Norse and Icelandic mythology): fierce warriors and downright scary in their bravery at times. Hold life and death in their hands (metaphorically or literally), a 'girls girl' and supportive of her sister Sansa and her other siblings and her mother Catelyn Tully Stark. She is not interested in comparing herself to others, doesn't view other women as competition, and is deeply compassionate despite the ability to inspire deep and long-lasting terror.