theyearofthebeard-blog

[ineffable-opinions]

"Top", "Bottom" Discussion in Unknown ep. 12

The Office Gossip Scene

[Edited on 10th May; changes under clarification headings]

Now that the Unknown has resurrected the conversation about gong shou, let’s talk about it. The what and the why, so to say. Thank you @1serotonindeficientgirl (whose post inspired mine).

I welcome critiques and corrections. So, please feel free to do so.

Scenes and subtitles

The discussion in the episode starts with Wei Qian’s staff gossiping about his relationship with Wei ZhiYuan. One of the staff members comments that Wei Qian is like a little lamb (小绵羊) when it comes to his little brother:

只要遇到他弟弟 就像小绵羊

Someone replies with the following idiom:

羊入虎口

(Literally: “a sheep enters a tiger's mouth”)

It means to enter a dangerous situation where one will certainly suffer [Source: Wiktionary].

The female employee (who witnessed their kiss) asks San Pang:

三胖哥谁是羊谁是虎啊 - Who is the lamb (羊; sheep) and who is the tiger (虎)?

This has some employees confused and they ask for an explanation. They receive the following reply:

就是攻跟受的差别啊 – [it means] between them, who is gong and who is shou?

One of the staff members repeats the unfamiliar terms:

攻受 – gong shou

and the fu-nu (腐女; fujoshi) offers an explanation:

好啦姊姊教你们 – let this elder sis explain

老虎看到羊会 – the tiger upon seeing the lamb…

Before she can complete her explanation, Wei Qian moves into the scene accompanied by the growl of a big cat. The gossipers disband.

In the end our fu-nu expresses their support for Wei Qian’s relationship with Wei ZhiYuan. Before she runs off, she throws him the question:

你们谁是攻谁是受啦 – between the two of you, who is gong and who is shou?

In the next shot Wei Qian is alone. He flexes his muscles and comments:

很明显吧 - It's obvious, isn't it?

[END OF SCENE]

Everyone at that office seems pretty close. The staff calls Wei “Qian ge” 谦哥 (first name + brother) and not as “Mr. Wei” (as the English subtitles suggests). Looks like Lao Xiong (emphasis on Lao = old) is the only one who clearly disapproves of such gossipmongering.

Notice how the terms gong and shou were translated directly into top and bottom in English subtitles. While that’s technically correct, there’s some nuance missing.

While there are tongzhi (同志;queer) people who use the terms gong and shou, these are not the most popular terms for top and bottom in the tongzhi community. This series specifically uses the terms gong (攻) and shou (受). Why? We’ll get to that in a minute.

In a BL, being shou means that character is the bottom in that particular ship. That character could be top, bottom, versatile or neither in another ship. A character is a bottom (as we use the term in English) only when that character is an absolute shou (sou uke in Japanese). An absolute shou is invariably shou. No matter which ship he becomes part of and no matter who he is paired with, he will be the shou. Similar difference exists between the terms “top” and “gong”.

English subtitles use ‘top’ and ‘bottom’ from the get-go. There is no need to explain what those terms mean. But that’s not the case with gong shou – only 腐 (fu) people (BL fans) really knows what those terms really mean and thus warrants explanation.   

Clarification

[Edited. Thank you @abstractelysium and @wen-kexing-apologist for contributing to the conversation.]

As noted in the convo, Wei Qian is pretty ferocious in the office and is only gentle when it comes to Wei ZhiYuan. So, it is normal that gossiping irrespective of topic would end as soon as he arrives. Also, I think Wei Qian didn’t get what gong shou means other than allusion to tiger and lamb. The original language dialogues don’t make it clear that gong and shou means top and bottom (in a ship). [The English subs gives off that impression since gong and shou were simply translated.] Moreover, those terms are danmei literacies that has entered dictionaries but not necessarily public knowledge.

It is like an insider joke for fu-people made possible by Wei Qian’s ignorance. That wouldn’t have worked on Wei ZhiYuan who read danmei while growing up. That wouldn’t have worked if the fu nu (fujoshi) stuck around to explain what that means.

Usually in such conversations in BL, fu-people are shown to be mistaken: they either mess up the ship/dynamic (Love By Chance 1) or the character(s) in the ship deliberately trick them (Counter Attack). It is almost always played out with seme/gong’s approval in BL - not sure if that dynamic between fu-people & seme aka gong character ever appeared in any live-action dynamic. The trigger of this scene is Wei ZhiYuan’s deliberate choice of actions: PDA, kiss in the office right in front of a staff member.

BL literacies

BL is a media genre in itself with different sub-genres, genre conventions and classic works. It sure has a lot of overlap with other genres:

Romance as well as GL – they coevolved. They share mothers and other ancestors.

Queer – Is it really a genre? Even if one were to ignore queer as method in academia, it is still so complex.

Let me quote Taiwanese tongzhi author Chiang-Sheng Kuo:

… what exactly is queer literature? Is it queer literature if queer people like to read it, or is it only queer literature if there are queer characters in the books? Or is it an appendage of the queer movement? If a queer author writes a book without queer characters, does that represent a certain aspect of queer culture?

(You can find the whole interview here.)

Just as danmei (耽美; Chinese BL) has its roots in Japanese BL, so is gong (攻) and shou (受) from seme (攻め) uke (受け).

gong shou aka seme uke dynamics

Mother of BL, Mori Mari, didn’t come up with it, nor did her father Mori Ogai. Both she and her father, among the other dozen tanbi (耽美; same writing as danmei but different readings cause different languages, and different meanings cause different cultures) authors inherited it from authors before them who wrote on contemporaneous and historic Japanese male androphilia.

Spring Pastimes. Miyagawa Isshō, c. 1750 | seme uke dynamics in nanshoku pre-dates BL by hundreds of years.

While there is no dearth of riba (versatile) characters in BL, seme uke dynamics is:

a genre specialty. There are similar words in use in GL as well.

an enduring connection to the past of where BL was born.

remnants of a particular model of queerness; an alternative to LGBTQIA+ form of queerness.

What’s there in the scene

There is something hidden in the euphemistic explanation. On the face of it tiger devouring a lamb would be allusion to tiger gong devouring (topping) lamb shou.

But then tiger is a big cat and lamb is a herbivore. Neko (ネコ), the Japanese queer term for “bottom” means cat (etymology is obscure with this one). The term herbivore (草食) when used to describe a man means that man is masculine in a non-hegemonic way. In the series, Wei Qian embodies the hegemonic masculinity while Wei ZhiYuan is a quintessential grass-eater.

So, the description of lamb being devoured by a tiger would not be associated as simply as with the terms gong and shou especially when it comes from Taiwan which has been historically more connected to Japanese BL than any other BL producers (Sinophone or otherwise). This connection was highlighted during 魏之远 Wei ZhiYuan's naming scene where Le Ge used the borrowed Japanese possessive particle (の; no).

の = 之 (zhī)

The big cat sound effect for Wei Qian in particular adds to this. Wei Qian’s character is best described as a queen shou.

女王受 Queen shou: A shou who is as proud as a queen, and would devour gong. (source)

Wei Qian and Wei ZhiYuan’s ship is best described by Priest (the author of Da Ge, source novel of Unknown):

经典款毒舌女王和屁颠屁颠的忠犬组合 – paring of a classic, sharp-tongued queen and a tail-wagging loyal dog.

BL literacies & Affective learning

BL kind of has its own language (with words like gong shou), which fans use to share ideas and feelings. This secret language is what academics call ‘literacies.’ BL fans are all in on this and have their own ‘ways of behaving, interacting, valuing, thinking, believing, speaking, and often reading and writing’. Through ‘various visual, conceptual and textual literacies’, BL fans weave ‘an intertextual database of narrative and visual tropes which readers draw upon to interpret BL’. BL literacies is learnt through ‘affective hermeneutics – a set way of gaining knowledge through feelings.’ Audience learn BL literacies from BL works ‘which eventually leads to their active engagement’ with other BL fans. (source; Kristine Michelle L. Santos explains it in the context of Japanese BL but it applies to all BL media irrespective of where it is from.)

That scene in Unknown was set up to familiarize audience with BL literacies – not only those specific words but also the larger practice of imagining character pairing and indulging in that imagination. This is evident from the overall jubilant tone of the scene and the camera work. It is a celebration of moe. That is why we have a character who is not only a fu-nu but also willing to be openly fu-nu in that setting, sharing BL literacies and her colleagues interested to learn. 

For other examples, check out Thomas Baudinette’s book Boys Love Media in Thailand: Celebrity, Fans, and Transnational Asian Queer Popular Culture. He has a chapter dedicated to explaining how genre conventions were taught to the early audience of Thai BL through similar scenes.

Why must they do this? Why break the fourth wall like this? To get more people interested in the intricacies of BL and to get them to participate in the culture. BL is created by fu-people and BL literacies are their tools and source of joy. BL must draw in more people to keep BL culture going. Commercialized BL we have today is the result of an affective culture formed over the years. It is built on years of labor of authors and their audience. I mean, look at the Unknown. This BL employs the well-developed Loyal Dog gong x Queen shou dynamics. Apart from that which the series took from the novel, it also drew upon other common BL beats to tease the relationship between Dr. Lin and his senior.  

Teaching BL literacies is political. When Mainland Chinese government gets dangai productions to change names and relationships of characters (among other things), it is to prevent live-action audience from discovering BL as a genre with it disruptive potential. It is not only character's names and relationships that are changed. There are entire sub-genres of danmei (such as 高干) that got wiped out by censorship.

When a Taiwanese BL not only retains the character names & relationships and shows relatively explicit intimate scenes but also actively promotes BL literacies, it is an act of resistance. Discussion of gong shou, being genre specialty, manages to do so. Interestingly, they are doing it in an adaptation of a novel by Priest who has a particular reputation with self-censorship. That scene is not part of the source novel.

Heterosexual & gong shou

Association of bottom with the feminine (female or otherwise) has its roots in medicalization (and pathologization) of homosexuality in the west (such as through theories by scientists and doctors like Richard von Krafft-Ebing). This “knowledge” subsequently spread across the globe and was adopted to varying degrees and forms.

Moreover, the terms gong and shou applies to heterosexual pairing too.

BG (boy girl) ships have male gong and female shou

GB (girl boy) ships have female gong and male shou. [If this is interesting unfamiliar territory, check out the series Dong Lan Xue (2023).]

Moreover, if one is willing to look beyond LGBTQIA+ form of queerness (which is born and brought up in America), one can see other queer possibilities. For example, Kothi-Panthi queerness in South Asia which is characterized by explicit presentation of top bottom dynamics. There are very many similar forms of queerness in other parts of Global South.

In many cultures, sexuality doesn’t inform identity but sexual preference does. That’s why is you are to ask a kothi-panthi couple which one of you is the bottom, the kothi would tell you without hesitation: “I am.” Might even asked you in turn, “Couldn’t you tell?” For them, sexual preference (being kothi) rather than sexual orientation takes center stage. This is the inverse of how LGBTQIA+ form of queerness looks at it. While LGBTQIA+ model of queerness focuses on sexual orientation (being pan, ace, gay, etc.) as something that can be freely discussed but sexual preference (top, bottom, versatile, side, etc.) is considered private.

*Just to be clear, “kothi” is a term of self-identification. It means that the person is a bottom. Panthi is not self-identification. That’s how kothi address the men who top them. 

While thanks to westernization LGBTQIA+ form of queerness enjoys more visibility, I think it is better to consider it as one type of queerness rather than the only model of queerness. Gong shou dynamics doesn’t fit into LGBTQIA+ form of queerness because it comes from another, much-older nanshoku model of queerness that made its way into Japan from China, hundreds of years ago. Friction between different models of queerness is common where ever they interact. In 1970s, Japan was witness to public debates between a younger, westernized Japanese queer activist Itō Satoru and other Japanese queer activists such as Fushimi Noriaki and Tōgō Ken who were rooted in indigenous tradition of male-male sexuality.

[Itō Satoru’s] insistence on the necessity of adopting western models of gay identity and coming out have brought him into conflict with other activists such as Fushimi Noriaki and veteran campaigner Tōgō Ken.

Interpretation and Orientalism: Outing Japan's Sexual Minorities to the English-Speaking World by Mark McLelland

Clarification

[Edited. Thank you @wen-kexing-apologist for contributing to the conversation.]

Under the LGBTQ+ model of queerness, it maybe considered inappropriate to have conversation about “top” “bottom”, especially in the office, going as far as to ask that to Qian ge. From that perspective, the BL audience (especially those who are unfamiliar with the terms gong and shou) are fair in their assessment of that scene being out of place or outright offensive.

I think things might have been a bit different if the subtitles retained the terms gong shou instead of “top” “bottom” since they aren’t exactly the same thing. That would have had the desired effect (of introducing BL literacies - gong shou in the context of 强强 (strong gong x strong shou) pairing) without unintended consequence.

What is considered rude under the LGBTQ+ framework is an essential part of fu culture. It is like addressing Wei Qian as just Qian – that could be considered rude in the original language but pretty normal in English. Different cultures, different norms, so to speak. It is only polite to be mindful of the cultural differences and avoid discussing about sexual preference where it is considered inappropriate.

As for the normalization of fu culture (especially discussions of gong shou), in my opinion the didactic scope of Unknown is undermined by the very fact that it is primarily a gǔkē danmei (via adoption (收养)) with tongyangxi vibes (highlighted multiple times by San Pang in the novel) associated with Wei ZhiYuan.

Somehow fu-culture gets judged by those who consume products of that culture. Everyone is happy with fu-cultural products as long as fu-people don't discuss who is gong and who is shou.

Why are fu-culture and BL always judged based on a culturally alien lgbtq+ form of queerness? Why must BL be arm-twisted to fit into norms of lgbtq+ form of queerness just because that is the most mainstream form of queerness?

-

That’s not much a conclusion but this is already so long. I really hope it gives you something to think about.

If you are interested, here's more.

[lurkingteapot]

I've been going through my collection of old (pre-2016 for the most part) academic papers on BL and thought, hey, why not re-read some of them and sum them up so folks can see whether they want to check them out in full?

Today's offering:

Beautiful, Borrowed, and Bent: “Boys’ Love” as Girls’ Love in Shōjo Manga by James Welker, originally presented at the Third International Convention of Asia Scholars, August 19–22, 2003, Singapore, and published in Signs, Vol. 31, No. 3, New Feminist Theories of Visual Culture (Spring 2006), pp. 841-870, UChicago Press. [Jstor]

Welker starts off with a brief explanation of what the BL genre is, what terminology he uses ("BL" as an umbrella term that includes the earlier names of tanbi, shōnen ai, yaoi, and the long-form 'boys' love'):

“Boys’ love” manga emerged as a subgenre of shōjo manga (girls’ comics) around 1970 just as women artists were taking over the shōjo market.(*) It quickly became among the most popular shōjo manga genres, and its creators became some of the best-loved artists in the industry. (* First published in the monthly Bessatsu shōjo komikku in December 1970, Keiko Takemiya’s “In the Sunroom” (Sanrūmu nite [1970] 1976) was probably the first boys’ love narrative. See Aoyama 1988, 188.) - Welker 2006:841

He goes on to challenge the common perception of BL as a genre "by straight women for straight women":

[T]he genre is widely considered to offer a liberatory sphere within which presumably heteronormative readers can experiment with romance and sexuality through identification with the beautiful boy characters. […] Members of the Japanese lesbian community have, however, pointed to boys’ love and other gender-bending manga as strong influences on them in their formative years […] Clearly boys’ love manga can be viewed through a different lens from that which most critics and scholars have been using, and hence the full potential of boys’ love is largely overlooked: that of liberating readers not just from patriarchy but from gender dualism and heteronormativity. - Welker 2006:842-843

He introduces the texts he will analyse (Takemiya Keiko's Song of Wind and Trees 風と木の詩 kaze to ki no uta, 1976-1984 and Hagio Motō's Heart of Thomas トーマの心臓 tōma no shinzō, 1974), and concludes the essay's intro section as follows:

This reading will employ lesbian critical theory, visual theory, and reader responses to these and similar texts to show how 1970s boys’ love manga is not merely queer on its surface but how it opened up space for some readers to experiment with marginalized gender and sexual practices and played a role in identity formation. - Welker 2006:843

Welker goes into the questions of applicability of theories that weren't originally developed for this specific context – visual theories were largely developed through film analysis; European and North American models of gender and feminist theory, while also having informed academic discourse in Japan, in their origin operate on culturally specific assumptions and need to be applied with care.

He talks about the tradition of androgynous and cross-dressing heroines of early shōjo manga and their connection to the earliest BL manga, the dilemma of the "beautiful boy" characters' gender and sex and how to read these – are they boys? idealised self-images of girls drawn onto boys' bodies? neither male nor female? sexless altogether?, and the way Japanese readers in the 1970s, already culturally familiar with gender performance through kabuki or the all-female Takarazuka Revue and similar troupes, received the gender-bending nature of BL stories. He also comments on the role fan interaction via magazines, and the way readers were learning about queer life in Japan:

By the early to mid-1980s, the magazines’ readers were learning in real terms about the world of Shinjuku ni-chōme, Tokyo’s well-known gay district, described as a world full of “beautiful boys like those in the world of shōjo manga” (Aran 1983, 15), as well as various aspects of lesbian life in Japan (Gekkō 1985). In spite of the connections drawn on the pages of these magazines, the possibility that these narratives might be seen to actually depict homosexuality remains broadly denied. To allow that the narratives might truly be about homosexuality—between these girls-cum-beautiful boys—would be an apparently unthinkable invitation to read the narratives as lesbian. - Welker 2006:857

Welker briefly explores how the example texts of Song of Wind and Trees and Heart of Thomas "serve many of the functions lesbian critics and theorists have outlined as roles of lesbian texts" (Welker 2006:858), then goes on to analyse the flower imagery of roses and lilies that is very prevalent in both titles, the intertextuality of these stories with European and French literature (and how the readers were expected to catch on to this intertextuality). On the transgressive and queering nature of writing and reading BL, he says:

[T]hrough acculturation to gender performance in Takarazuka and kabuki and by such cross-dressing manga icons as Sapphire and Oscar, as well as the deliberate ambiguity of the beautiful boy, the reader is encouraged to see not just a girl but herself within the world of boys’ love and, ultimately, is encouraged to explore homoerotic desire, either as a beautiful boy or as herself, either alone or with others, either as her fantasy or as her reality. […] Regardless of whether boys’ love manga were created merely to offer heterosexual readers a temporary respite from patriarchal restrictions on their desire, some readers found in identifying with the beautiful boy a way through the looking glass to a world outside the patriarchy. And regardless of whether he is read as a boy or a girl, the beautiful boy can be read as a lesbian. […] For readers whose experience of sexuality and gender contravenes heteronormativity, works like Song and Thomas offer narrative safe havens where they can experiment with identity, find affirmation, and develop the strength necessary to find others like themselves and a sense of belonging. - Welker 2006:865-866

I've been out of academia so long that I've lost any sense of what a good proportion of direct quotes to original text is, or whether it's even appropriate to quote as much as I did here. This is emphatically NOT an academic article in and of itself -- I'm posting on bloody tumblr. If anyone wants to add to this, I'll be thrilled.

One of the most commonly voiced criticisms of BL is that it's about, but not (or did not in significant part used to be) by or for gay men. This article does not address this point further—Welker does go into this in his more recent articles, iirc; if you've got beef with this aspect, @ him not me. I do however think it's worth noting that this 17-year-old article already recognises that the genre is queer, and has been since its inception.

[nieves-de-sugui]

The Story of Live Action BL in Japan

This is an extra post to accompany the history of BL post I did earlier. 

Japan has had live action BL long before Thailand entered the picture. It was however mostly melancolic stories or manga adaptations, until their own particular boom happened. I make a difference between what I would call LGBTQ+ representation and BL Live Action, because even though they have existed parallely they are fundamentally different in their conception. Here is an interview with the curator of an exhibition that was held in Japan about the history of Japanese Queer Cinema. 

The evolution of Japanese BL Live Action has been very slow, and mostly influenced by manga. It is still not a big market, but it has improved a lot in the most recent years. This is my attempt to put it into phases:

The indie like movies and bad manga adaptations

Let’s start with Boys Love (a movie), shall we? 

It is the year 2006 and up to this point there has been a small boom of gay stories in the 1990′s (the first Tokyo International Lesbian & Gay Film & Video Festival was held in 1992 me thinks this might have sprung the yaoi debates). In the 2000's, we're at the start of a new little boom on BL type movies being made. Many of which would be directly released in DVD, with a constant melancholic and tragic approach to love stories between young men. 

Homosexual love is only attarctive to the mainstream if it’s painful. Like typical japanese imposible loves that are explored because of the passion and innevitable tragedy (it’s a japanese trope of almost any kind of romance movie, up to these days). its the intensity of feelings and the poetry of it all. In Boys Love we see those elements that are now very common in BL manga. Straight men falling in love with beautiful young boys and loving them until their tragic end. The movie was released in theatres and was successful enough to get a sequel. Here is a very good review of the movie, to know more about it.

A number of similar movies (with happier endings) follow through. Then enters the Takumi kun series. Based off one of the most popular yaoi novel (and potentially the first live action novel/manga adaptation of BL), it has all the June tropes: Traumatized feminine Takumi, raped by his older brother when he was young, has developped an abberation to human touch which prevents him from making friends. He goes to a boarding school for rich kids where he shares a dorm room with Gii, the most popular kid on the premises, who has fallen in love with him. And it is through that love that Takumi gets over his illness and heals from his past. It was such a success in the BLsphere that it got 4 more movies. I believe it is the bane of @absolutebl existence. 

After the first Takumi-kun movie, the production of BL type movies, or adaptations of manga gets a boost. We go from no more than 3 movies a year to 8 in 2008, ie:

Kindan no Koi Ai no Kotodama Taiikukan Baby

And so it continues. When a manga is popular enough it either gets a Live Action, a drama CD (voice actors record the manga dialogues) or/and a series of OVAs (Original Video Animation). Because that’s how they do marketing in Japan. I believe most, if not all, of these movies go straight to DVD. It’s a treat for the fans. 

The beginning of the shift

As the manga source starts to evolve, so does the live actions. Japanese society starts being more aware of the LGBT (as the term is used for business startegy purposes). As it’s all about what is going to sell, slowly, a slight neutral realism starts to be felt. Melancoly starts to be replaced with happier moods. 

The first adaptation I genienly enjoyed at the time was Seven Days, 2015. A 2 part movie, adapted from the manga, with a very simple story (still no characters properly defined as gay, but maybe they could count as bi?)

While more LGBTQ+ movies get made, the BL Live Action movies remain in the same vein. Adpating what is popular and sticking to the tropes of the time. For example, in 2017 we get simultaneously:

BL - Hidamari ga Kikoeru. A loud and energetic college student becomes friends with a hearing impared classmate, as he helps him take notes for class. 

LGBT - Close Knit. An 11 year old girl gets tossed aside by her mother and goes to live with her uncle, who is dating a transgender woman. 

The Middle Aged Man Phenomenon

Have you wondered why office settings are so popular in japanese BL? Well, it is mostly Ossan’s Love fault in my opinion.

Besides office romances being a staple of japanese tv dramas, in 2016 two major mainstream actors (Tanaka Kei and Yoshida Kotaro) participate in a small short film about a salaryman who discovers his boss is in love with him. A simple comedy filled with misunderstandings and funny shenanigans. As the response to it was very positive, they decided to turn it into a full flegged series. And so, Ossan’s Love comes out on prime television (TV Asahi) for all to see. It is the first time we see a story like this being shown in a mainstream channel, for all and anyone to see.

A year later after the success of Ossan’s Love we get the wonderful Kinou Nani Tabeta/What Di you Eat Yesterday? (2019), which would not have been possible without Ossan’s Love. There was confidence that there was a market for such a story. Followed by the OL movie: Ossan’s Love: Love or Dead. Which was later followed by a horrible horrible second season that nobody wanted. On this year too, Mood Indigo comes out. A sequel to The Novelist/Pornographer, which would secure it’s popularity. It later got a second season.

We are now in a second boom of interest in queer stories. And the number of movies and tv shows grow. Some of the most known:

Novel adaptation - Fujoshi Ukkari gay ni kokoru LGBT Movies - His Dramas - Life: Senjou no Bokura

Queer voices have been increasingly loud and, in 2015, two municipalities put in place a partnership to acknowledge same sex relationships (not recognized outside of those municipalities unfortunately). 

And so, start mixing the homophobia free idealized stories, with more diverse queer content, with the harsh realities of LGBTQ+ people, and the cinematic interest of the filmmakers/directors. 

The rise of the salaryman and the thai breakthrought

Thanks to the appeal of middle aged men, Japan now knows there’s a market to be had in producing BLs, so the adaptations sprout like mushrooms. The ground is ready to bear fruit, and so enters thailand with the big success of 2gether at the beginning of 2020. 

Japan got to have the movie screened in their theatres. Thailand has broken the Japanese market barrier, as soon as the borders open after the pandemic, fanmeetings are held there one after the other.

And then, we get Cherry Magic in late 2020, which continues to cement that the current japanese BL boom is still going strong. 

The Aftermath

The production of BL shows and movies reaches its peak and we get 26 (shows and movies) in 2022. Movies, specials and second seasons are being made.

From Utsukushii Kare 2021 to Strange 2023. Old and new manga gets an adapation and more queer representation grows in media overall.

The story of LGBT representation in shows in Japan

As an extra, I want to put here a few examples of how queer characters, and stories have entered the mainstream of japanese tv dramas. Many mainstream actors have also taken upon portraying such characters. 

Pretty Proofreader (2016) - featured a gay side character, not relevant to the plot.  My Brother’s Husband (2018) mini series - adaptation of Gengoroh Tagame’s manga about a man overcoming his homophobia through getting to know his bother’s husband Life As A Girl (2018) mini series - the life of a lesbian trans woman  Ie Uru Onna S2 (2019) - one episode features different types of LGBT people who want to buy a house and the difficulties they face. Also had some type of side gay stoyline (a little queerbaity)? Ore no Sukato, doko Itta? (2019) - a gay man who dresses as a woman becomes a teacher at a highschool and helps with his is student’s problems.

Special mention to Residential Complex (2018). 

A drama that featured 4 families living in the same residential unit, each with their own fundamental problems. The father in the traditional japanese family was unemployed, the man engaged to a younger second wife who wanted no children ends up having to take care of his son from his previous marriage, the young newlyweds that are eager to have kids can’t concieve and the single architect is actually living with his boyfriend. It was a show that had worked with an LGBT organization to make a faithful protrayal of LGBT realities. 

Final Thoughts

Here is a list of all Japanese BL and Queer media, Japanese BL list. I recommend to check it out to see the variety of adaptations being made today. It is intersting to see the differences in plot in the shows that are adapting current manga (Our Dining Table) and those adapting older manga (Candy Color Paradox). There is also a lot of queer movies and shows worth checking out. Here are my recommendations:

Kamisama no Ekohiiki (series)

Both Me and Him are the Grooms (movie)

I think it is great that Japan is intergrating queer stories and voices to their BLs, as well as adapting more content to the screen. It is a very exciting moment to be living through, but it still feels like it might go away just as fast as it came. Japan is a very conservative country, that embraces change so very slowly. Queer vocies are making noise, but they have yet to manage to make their government listen. Japan is very setback in this sense.

I do no think Japan will be able to have a BL market similar to Thailand for its live action adaptations any time soon. They stick to what they know, which sometimes can be very good and others, bad.

I do hope for BL to keep on doing what it does best for society: subtly normalizing queer lives so that conservative people start welcoming the idea that they're just regular people (who deserve rights, come on Japan). 

Hopefully we’re headed there.  

[i-guess-im-into-this-now]

HIStory 1: My Hero

Right off the bat the premise of this show is 🦇💩, which I usually love.

However...

This scenario does make me a bit uncomfortable.

Premise:

Due to the mistake of some reaper-like character, the soul of a young lady, Lan Shi, gets taken instead of the young man, Gu Si Ren. To fix his mistake Reaper ends up taking Gu Si Ren's soul and allowing Lan Shi to have his body, which she can keep if she can get her boyfriend, Hero, to kiss her within 7 days, and she can't tell anyone the truth.

I'm not great at analysis, nor am I especially well educated in gender or queer studies, so I may not be able to eloquently put into thought or words what bothers me about the premise.

But. There is something about unwillingly stripping a character of their gender that bothers me. I'm all for trans characters (and real people), but that is not what is happening here.

This is a woman being forced into the body of a man. Will she retain her identity as a woman? Will she identify as a man? How does this affect her sexuality? She has already lamented that in order to keep this body she will have to "turn" her boyfriend gay. Will she be comfortable seducing Hero?

I also feel bad for Gu Si Ren, who by any metric had a terrible life, and terrible death. His soul is gone but his body remains, to be given to someone else to use. Which also feels like a violation.

I'm also a little unsettled with the boyfriend Hero's place in this story as well, but for a wholly different reason. As far as he knows his girlfriend just died, and this character is expected to be kissing someone else within a week?! I'm guessing this show is going to blow right past Hero's grief.

Will this show use this premise as a chance to explore issues of gender identity and sexuality? I'll admit my hopes have bottomed out for this show. I'll have to finish it to see.

I've seen that some of the other episodes/seasons of HIStory are highly recommended, so I won't allow whatever happens in this one to dissuade me from watching the others.

***************************************

After finishing watching it, the show was better than I anticipated, but I still have some issues with it.

Spoilers

Lan Shi had more agency in the body swap than I originally thought. She was complicit in taking Gu Si Ren's body. Her actions which came from a place of desperation, are actually pretty reprehensible.

Her plan was to take Gu Si Ren's body, identy and life, and use them for her own purpose. It's pretty heinous, if you think about it. For her plan to work she needs to deceive and manipulate Hero. And she never considers for a moment what her actions mean for Gu Si Ren. Also, Lan Shi never shows guilt or remorse for her actions.

She learns over the course of the week that Hero, wasn't in love with her, but likely had a crush on Gu Si Ren. She also discovers that Gu Si Ren was in love with Hero through reading his journals. Suddenly she feels like she's inserted herself into a place she doesn't belong (you think?!).

Lan Shi does eventually give back Gu Si Ren's body. It's at a time that is poignant for her, but awkward for Gu Si Ren and Hero.

Lan Shi doesn't ever try to correct any of the problems she created between the two guys, including some pretty insensitive comments about gay men that really upset Hero.

My Hero is a strange story with an uncomfortable premise that I think actually had more potential for exploring issues with gender/sexual identity, than it utilized.

It failed to be a romance due to the fact that the actual lovers are only together briefly, and we see very little of how their relationship evolved.

The show instead revolves around Lan Shi and her inability to recognize that her relationship with Hero had failed, and her unwillingness to accept that. Which, I also could have got behind if Lan Shi had been able to do some introspection and shown some growth.

It did turn out to be a lot better than I feared it would be at first glance, but ultimately it was underwhelming.

[maybe-boys-do-love]

Mix Sahaphap gets to perform (and has the performance chops to perform) in a style that I’ve never seen any other male actor get to embody. Mix gets to unironically play the #strongfemalecharacter. The Beatrice, the Elizabeth Bennett, the Jo March. Strong-willed, emotional, kind-hearted.

Not only do the plot points line up, but Mix, more than any BL actor I’ve seen, fully leans into the embodiment of this archetype. In his roles, he rolls his eyes, pouts, banters flirtatiously, softens his posture and expression at small details. He doesn’t over-exaggerate and imposition other characters but his face also doesn’t hold back his character’s thoughts and judgments. And when the moments arrive, he lets all the hurt and anguish pour out in shatters of tears and visible heartbreak—the star-counting scene, anyone????—in a way that harkens to the operatic emotionality of well-done melodramas, soap-operas, and their contemporary Thai equivalent of Lakorn. It’s only that these have never been men’s roles in those.

It’s no surprise that one of Mix’s roles—Cupid’s Last Wish—is explicitly a gender body-swap, and Tian in A Tale of Thousand Stars is (albeit explicitly denied within the show) heavily connected to gender body-swapping. What Mix specializes in as an actor, and does exceptionally well, has been defined as feminine. To depict a kind of queer expression in this style is novel because it’s not camp, it’s not okama, it’s not a soft or femboy, it’s not a BL twink (Mix has been mostly excluded from the schoolyards and quads of the BL universe except for a role as a senior crush in Fish Upon the Sky). It’s too sincere and too adult for any of that.

In Moonlight Chicken we get to see, without the pretense of gendered mysticism, this performance style’s seduction, warmth, wit, and explosiveness within the framework of a general gay form of expression. It says that this kind of femininity might just be a gay thing. Not all gay men exhibit it, obviously—queer men aren’t a monolith. Still, it gives us something to consider about how we observe performance of queerness on screen, especially in front of an audience that puts so much more emphasis on ships, heat, and pairing chemistry to assess how well they perform a BL role. Could we look for other features to judge performance of queerness instead of how well they kiss?

Seme and uke roles would be the major performance style categories loyal BL fans assess actors with, yet even within the archetype his character’s fill within BL narratives, Mix’s performances differ from the typical uke depiction in BL because he really doesn’t perform them as passive. Rather, Mix’s characters and his portrayal of them are dynamic and demanding. It certainly fits certain stereotypes of ukes (Gilbert!) and their gay stereotype equivalent of bottoms as pillow princesses and brats. Mix’s characters, though, have more drive, agency, and compassion than that, and he plays them with all of those currents running underneath.

We certainly have openly gay writer/director Aof Noppharnach to thank for writing this kind of queer character for Mix to play in Tian and Wen. But for Mix’s specific commitment to the performance starting off with his (debut!?) role in ATOTS, we first have Earth to thank for believing in Mix’s ability and recommending him to portray the role of Tian, and then Aof’s acceptance despite his differing initial expectations for the character. Mix, Earth, and Aof have all been open about how Mix in his personal life and nature holds a lot of similarities to both his role as Tian in ATOTS and Wen in Moonlight Chicken. Some people might knock points off his performances because he’s like them. But his relationship to the characters, rather than dampening my enthusiasm for Mix’s performances, helps me appreciate his willingness to give an authentic performance in a style that hasn’t been encouraged on screens previously. It’s made more impactful that he chose to risk vulnerability to bring something personal that had previously been excluded from screens because of its gender deviance (and in broader society explicitly condemned). This doesn’t make a claim on Mix’s actual identity, but simply shows his willingness to understand and perform the expressions of his queer characters with an effort at empathy that many other actors would feel challenged to bring.

Some actors are chameleons, but some actors have a gift of a type within which they can explore depths and range that no one else can best. For me, that’s what Mix does in his work when directors and casting understands his talent. There’s a BTS video of Mix actually fainting during a scene while in Earth/Phupa’s embrace on the mountain that immediately brought to mind the wildly famous final scene in the film Camille where Greta Garbo as Marguerite dies in her lover’s arms.

For Mix, it was a serious incident due to regrettably extreme conditions and requiring the on-set paramedics, but these levels of theatrics, for me, are emblematic of what Mix is capable of as a performer, as well. After all, he had to faint in Phupa’s arms multiple times on purpose. It’s the kinds of Old Hollywood and heightened sentimental romance realms Mix takes his performances to! Then he can turn around and make it look easy to take that same character into grounded quips or dedicated everyday tasks. It only takes writers, directors, and audiences willing to see that men can feel this way and act this way. Mix has paved the way.

[itsanidiom]

OFFICE BLS RANKED BY THEIR ABILITY TO MAINTAIN THE VENEER OF APPROPRIATE WORKPLACE BEHAVIOUR

Because I saw @sorry-bonebag's tag and had to.

Here we go! Disclaimer: I'm not going to list every Office BL™ these are just the ones I've seen. Sorry if your fav is missing! Let's start with our lowest scorer that definitely sets the tone for the bottom of the barrel.

CHECK OUT - The veneer is tracing paper if not completely transparent. Fucking in the office. Yeah. That's an HR violation for sure. Thankfully your company is too small to have an HR department. But you're definitely getting fired by your boss who is also your boyfriend who you are also cheating on.

BED FRIEND - The veneer is only considered opaque because everyone else in the office is blind as hell. HR is pretty sure you two fucked in the office bathroom, but they have no proof so could only give you a warning.

LOVE MATE - Veneer is 1-ply. I mean, if the whole office ships it, is it truely an issue? HR thanks you for keeping things PG.

WE BEST LOVE: FIGHTING MR. 2ND - The veneer is definitely paper thin, but it's 2-ply. At least you avoided fucking in the office. Just a good smack in the face and some mutual sexual harassment. HR win...I guess.

HISTORY4: CLOSE TO YOU - Veneer is getting a little thicker, but depends on the light. Rooftop and in-office grandiose love confessions aside, HR thanks you for keeping your higher heat make out sessions off business hours. Still, gossiping about your romantic interests with your coworkers is grounds for a warning.

OUR DATING SIM - Veneer is about as thick as the space between your legs through which HR can see that you're literally holding hands in the office right now, stop it.

STEP BY STEP - The veneer is solid. Mainly office stuff happens in the office. HR approves of this boring as hell vibe. Still, you get marked down slightly because you did almost get down in the company parking garage.

CHERRY MAGIC - The veneer is a wholesome thickness, but no kissing in the company elevator. HR slap on the wrist for sure. We don't care how quickly the doors closed. There is CCTV in that elevator, sirs.

JUN & JUN - The veneer is currently in the process of being painted on so we'll have to wait and see, but it's looking pretty thin so far. HR has their pens ready to write up the report.

OLD FASHION CUPCAKE - The veneer is solid, but HR saw you hugging in the coffee station. Thank you for waiting until you were off work hours to make out, I guess. Enjoy your fancy desserts.

ROOMATES OF POONGDUCK 304 - The veneer is there. HR heard some weird noises over the zoom call, but we're just going to ignore those for now.

[respectthepetty]

Upcoming Taiwanese BLs

We are over halfway through 2024, and as usual, I've only had two Taiwanese BLs (Unknown, Anti Reset), so even though I'm sitting on a stack of BLs to watch every single week from other countries, call me Smaug because I need MORE!

Honorary Korean BL: Uncovering the Curse of Taekwondo (2024)

Former friends (and possibly lovers) reunite at a funeral after going their separate ways for over a decade, but, honestly, I don't care about the plot because this comes from Hwang Da Seul who was behind Blueming, To My Star, and Where Your Eyes Linger, so I know it's going to be amazing. There is a movie and a series version, and the movie already premiered at the Bucheon International Fantastic Film Festival in South Korea at the beginning of July. The runtime was 154 minutes, but the series is eight episodes around thirty minutes each and is currently seeking distribution.

First Note of Love (August 2024)

My most beloved, Charles Tu, from my favorite BL HIStory 4: Close to You is finally returning to me in the form of a washed-up singer who stepped away from the spotlight due to a tragic event only to be dragged back in by an up-and-coming composer who is also a longtime fan. It is a joint production with Thailand's Star Hunter Entertainment (the company behind Big Dragon, Love Senior, City of Stars, and Sunset x Vibes) and features a side couple of a Thai singer and a Taiwanese agent. It will involve singing, but I'm already too comfortable in my seat with my snacks to care.

Fragrance of the First Flower Season 2 (2024)

The lone GL holding down this list finished filming late last year and Gagaoolala has been releasing BTS images since filming began, so it'll likely land there once it is released. The series is a continuation of the 2021 first season, which people were not thrilled about because of the ending, so this season should solve some of the angst we were left with by exploring the two women actually coming together to navigate life as a couple.

The Only One (August 2024)

Directed by Liu Kuang Hui, who directed Your Name Engraved Herein, written by the same folks behind The Untamed, and based on Mu Su Li's novel A Certain Someone which is about two boys whose parents are dating and move in together, so the mains go from enemies-to-??? and the only reason for the question marks on a Taiwanese BL is because the word on these BL streets (and his MDL page) is one of the actors works heavily in China, so this might be the reason this one has been was in limbo even though filming finished earlier this year, but the socials are still posting it's coming this year.

See Your Love (Filming Complete)

This co-production with Japan is about a rich man who falls in love with his hearing-impaired caregiver. It finished filming at the end of May and will have those sweet sweet Taiwanese BL cameos from some Be Loved in House: I Do and Plus and Minus folks PLUS it will be the first cameos for the Kiseki: Dear to Me guys since the company that produced their show is the same one for this show.

Impression of Youth (Filming Complete)

Very little is known about the plot of this teacher-student romance, but it comes from the same folks who produced DNA Says Love You and one of the mains, Muji Hsu, was also the lead in 2020's Because of You. Filming finished at the end of May, and the company stated it would be out before the end of the year.

Islanders (late 2024/early 2025)

This is based on a novel, Islands, by Lolita Hu, features some well known Taiwanese actors, and for a bit was under the name Sea of Intimacy. It's being presented as an 'older BL' but the MDL summary is sparse of the BL-plot: Hung, a successful entrepreneur, has three intimate relationships: his wife, his mistress, and his girlfriend. The lives of these individuals in their 20s, 30s, 40s, and 50s are intertwined because of romance, but their story extends beyond that. When Hung faces criticism on social media and loses everything, the way they react tells us how they see the world.

Wishing Upon the Shooting Star & The Young Gangster (2025)

These two deal with completely different plots but are together because of one reason: Ray Jiang. He is the director for these two and was the director for Unknown, My Tooth Your Love, and We Best Love. The companies behind them have stated the series are coming next year, but the guess is Ray's busy schedule is part of the hold up since he has a Netflix series in the works and apparently a film featuring Sam Lin (We Best Love) on the way. The Young Gangster is based on a novel and deals with a research assistant gathering information on the mafia (and we know how the mafia works in BLs), while Shooting Star deals with a man wishing that nobody notices him once he returns to his hometown after being fired. The wish backfires and nobody recognizes him, not even his dad or the boy he confessed to in high school! BL Mafia, Sideways Wishes, and Ray Ray are my favorite types of snacks!

Pray in Love (2025?)

A police officer falls in love with a man only to realize that man is the son of a prominent leader on the day of his arranged wedding in which he was hired as security for the event. The series already released a short film of the basic premise for fundraising efforts and festival rounds. Apparently, filming has started on the series, but there is no concrete confirmation from the production company.

Eternal Butler (2025)

Edited to add thanks to @cankersoregirl! This is a sequel to VBL's Anti Reset and began filming in early July. It focuses on Ever 4 who is sent to be a bodyguard for a young rich man only to encounter a rebellious man.

That Year, 162 Rainfalls (In Production?)

Is this a movie? Is it a series? Is it happening?! Who knows, but last year, it finally got funding and a director attached to it, but the real kicker is Lin Pei Yu is the screenwriter, and she is the writer behind all of my favorite Taiwanese BLs: We Best Love, HIStory 3: Trapped, My Tooth Your Love, Kiseki: Dear to Me, and so much more. Basically, the company struck gold getting her for this story about two archers and best friends. One gets confessed to but admits he actually is in love with his best friend, but before love can happen, the best friend has an accident and falls into a coma. It is based on a novel of the same name, and the plot is way more hefty than this, but I know Lin Pei Yu will make it work!

Four Seasons (Pre, Pre, PRE-Production?)

This is supposed to be four different stories focusing on different seasons, and is rumored to be VBL's next group of shows since the company has stated it wants to continue its formula from last year of releasing slightly connected shows. VBL/Vidol was behind Stay by My Side, VIP Only, You Are Mine, and Anti Reset. Winter is about a scrooge CEO and a florist who is hired to decorate for the CEO's Christmas event. Spring is about two boys meeting on a bus and falling in love over music. Summer is about a market owner and a chef falling in love over food. Autumn is about two former best friends seeing each other ten years after graduating and exploring their hometown together.

Connecting to You (Pre-Production?)

It seems to have gotten funding, but it's been quiet since which isn't surprising because when it comes to Taiwanese BLs, nothing is really heard until filming begins or even after it ends. I still have my hopes high because this is *THE* BL for me as it deals with a man who can see colored threads connecting people and one day runs into a policeman whose thread connects to him. The thread between them begins to change color, from silver-grey to yellow, representing friendship, and even to red, representing love. If I have to sell an organ or two to fund this myself, I. Will. Do. It. I NEED THIS!

And this wouldn't be a Petty Post if I didn't include this final one:

HIStory 15: Freed (GIVE IT TO ME!)

I don't care if this a long shot. I don't care if I seem crazy always asking for this. I. Deserve. It. HIStory 3: Trapped ended with our best mafia boy in prison, and it's time he got out! The HIStory franchise has not had a series since 2022's HIStory 5: Love in the Future, and although there have been rumors that a HERstory story might be next, I think bringing back a popular story would be just as good. I will ask for this every chance I can until I get it, and I plan on living a long life, so I got time!

[wanderlust-in-my-soul]

Delicious adjective, /dɪˈlɪʃ.əs/- used to describe a situation or activity that gives you great pleasure (Part 1/?)

Utsukushii Kare

Old Fashion Cupcake

Bad Buddy

War Of Y

Bed Friend

Love At The End Of The World

History 5

Summerdaze

Part of my favorite bl-tropes collection, as always in no particular order.

[mangajams]

"GUESS I'M THE FIRST TO TASTE ALL OF YOUR HOLES."

SIR????????????

From: Love History Caused by Willful Negligence

[piningintrovert]

e·nig·ma /iˈniɡmə,eˈniɡmə/

the rarest type of gender; they bow to no one and they cannot be submitted; they can dominate every gender, alphas included, and will win every challenge or fight

[loveisactivated]

Hao Ting & Xi Gu ♡

[ineffable-opinions]

Seme/uke - long response

A decolonial and subaltern take on three posts on seme/uke dynamics that aims to contextualize them while questioning ethnocentrism. I welcome alternative perspectives, corrections and criticisms.

Post #1: Seme/uke dynamics in Be Loved in House...  

@absolutebl responding to @echos-of-ivy

Seme – Uke

About two or more characters in a ship/pairing:

seme 攻め: top (the pitcher) (from origin - attack) also referred to as 左 (left)、タチ (tachi)、トップ (top)

uke 受け: bottom (the catcher) (from origin – receive / accept) also referred to as 右 (right)、ネコ(neko/cat)、ボトム (bottom)

riba リバ: verse (doesn't mind being either a top or a bottom) (from origin - reversible)

seme and uke are sourced from martial arts lingo: seme (martial arts), uke (martial arts) & is related to nanshoku tradition (depictied in ukiyo-e style painting below) of androphilia rather than western norms of queerness. Such differences in culture in queerness is seldom appreciated.

Spring Pastimes. Miyagawa Isshō, c. 1750

Sometimes, androphilic men use seme/uke/riba instead of the following terms which are popular in their queer community:

tachi タチ 凸 - top

neko ネコ 凹 - bottom

riba リバ 回 – verse

Other BL producing countries also have similar terms for seme/uke/riba. And those countries also have terms for top/bottom/verse/side in their queer communities.

For example,

In Chinese BL (danmei), seme/uke/riba -> gong (攻)/shou (受)/hu gong (互攻)[1]

In Chinese tongzhi community -

top: gong (攻) or 1 or 上 or 凸

bottom: shou (受) or  0 or 下 or 凹

verse:  bu fen (不分)or 0.5 or 10

side: 不10 or 纯爱[2]

四爱 (fourth love) is the Chinese term for heterosexual relationship wherein the woman tops. When fictionalized, such romances are referred to as GB (girl boy) romance as opposed to BG (boy girl) and the heroine is referred to as female gong 女攻め.

In Thai BL, seme/uke/riba -> me (เมะ)/ ke (เคะ)/ se (เซะ) & their queer community have these terms.

Evolution

When the work does not involve sexual acts, seme/uke/riba is assigned based on speculation (‘what if’) in line with audiences’ preference. There are a bunch of stuff that are employed to determine the dynamics but owing to variation in taste, audience don’t always agree with each other. Since seme/uke/riba archetypes rose to that status with the yaoi (doujin) boom with development of comiket, etc. tanbi, June, original shonen ai and other such types of BL don’t follow these archetypes. Live action which follows, to an extent, the latter tradition, such as Boys Love (2006), also don’t have uke/seme/riba archetypes, instead follows the archetypes that was popularized by tanbi literary movement. Tanbi literary movement was queer in more ways than one. It preceded/birthed BL (Mori Mari) and influenced it.

As no culture is passive recipient [pun intended], different glocalizations of seme/uke/riba dynamics exhibit different features, both within and outside Asia (eg. original English-language BL publication).

IRL

While being top/bottom/verse/side pertains to sexual preference/choices and acts or lack thereof, it is not devoid of other implications. Here are some interplay between these preferences/choices and the implications to consider:

Are these preference/choices innate or socially formed? Or both? Or neither?

What does it mean to be top/bottom/verse/side – within and outside the queer community?

Performance of masculinity, femininity, neither. Which masculinity/femininity? Is that masculinity/femininity performance – marginalized, soft, protest, hegemonic or amalgamated?

How local and global queer cultures influence it?

Is it some kind of conformation/attempt to fit in? If yes, what kind and why?

How are those choices impacted by history (including that of colonialism), legal/political implication (e.g.: pink certificate in Türkiye), local forms of patriarchy & heterosexism, class, nationality, race, skin color, caste, age, employment (including sex work) or lack thereof, physical location & avenues of exploration, abilities and disabilities, access to internet & other infrastructure, education (including sex education), health conditions and access to medical care, etc.

How do they form expectations regarding oneself and others?

While it can be argued that there shouldn’t be any other implication associated with such preference/choices, one can not simply wish them away as it is more often than not linked to certain social realities.

BL as well as gei comi are genres of fiction, telling tales of male androphilia – these are reproductions of imagination entwined with realities, reflecting desires, fantasies and biases plenty.

Conflation

I disagree that uke/seme/riba archetypes are conflated “casually” with bottom/top/verse in narratives and discussions around them. There is a difference that P’AbsoluteBL probably isn’t aware of:

Uke is the bottom in a ship. A character could be uke in a ship, seme or riba in another. For a character to be a ‘bottom’, he has to be sou uke or total/complete uke. It means no matter who he is paired with he will always be the uke.

Alternatively, a sou uke is a character that makes all other characters become seme for him and go after him.

Similarly, a character could be called ‘top’ when that character is a sou seme or total/complete seme. Unless a character is established as a sou seme or sou uke in the narrative, there is always a possibility that those characters are verse. While most BL involves set ships, it is not rare to find characters who are uke in one relationship becoming seme or riba in another. Sometimes, after a time skip, transmigration, reincarnation, etc. BL characters end up switching within a ship.

In Live Action

While there is plenty of riba ships in other BL media, live action has had very few.

These couples were riba in the novel:

Bai Luoyin and Gu Hai – Addicted – The censorship struck right after the couple had their first coitus interfemoris (based on the chronology in the novel).

Lu Feng and Cheng Yichen - A Round Trip to Love

Lan Yu and Chen Handong - Lan Yu

Dom/sub

While the P’AbsoluteBL is allowed to do whatever, I don’t think correlating dom/sub with seme/uke is a good idea in the context of BL because:

BL has a separate speculative fiction subgenre called dom-sub-verse (Dom/Subユニバース) which have its own conventions. It is one of the many subgenres that took inspiration from omegaverse and has grown parallel to it. It takes dominance and submission from the kink community and explores them as innate/biological traits.

It involves characters who are identified as Dom(ドム), Sub(サブ), Switch(スウィッチ), and Usual/Normal/Neutral(ユージュアル/ノーマル/ニュートラル). Along with the standard elements of BDSM in fiction such as safeword, sub space, sub drop and aftercare, it also involves additional elements such as kneel(ニール), glare(グレア) and collar (カラー). There are commands コマンド (命令) that Dom gives to Sub. Sometimes elements borrowed from omegaverse such as heats/ruts, suppressants and professional Dom also appear in this sub-genre.

Dom×Sub ship: Dom is the seme & Sub is the uke.

eg. Hizamazuite Ai Wo Tou 『跪いて愛を問う』 & Rhetoric 『レトリック』 by 山田ノノノ Mijuku Na Boku Ha Shihai Wo Kou 『未熟な僕は支配を乞う 1』 by音海ちさ

Sub×Dom ship: Sub is the seme & Dom is the uke.

Jouzu Ni Dekita Ne Watasesan 『上手にできたね、渡瀬さん』 by 野萩あき Shoshinsha Dom Ha Hameraretai 『初心者Domはハメられたい』 by やんちゃ Gohoubi Ni Kubiwa Wo Kudasai (ご褒美に首輪をください) by Naruse Kano

Dom×Switch ship: Dom is the seme & Switch is the uke.

Sono Meirei De Ore Wo Abaite 『その命令で俺を暴いて』 by 小夏うみ れ愛の声で暴いて by 泉門くき いでおすわりしてみせて by 由元千子

Switch×Switch ship: One of the switches is the seme and the other the uke. 

強情なSwitchの躾け方 by ことぶき

Dom×Dom ship: One of the dom is the seme and the other the uke.

コマンドミー、プリーズ by 町田とまと サディスティックに暴かれたい by 星崎レオ (uke is a Dom, seme’s identity is not made clear) Kyousei Switch 『強制Switch』 by 彩田あまた

Like most BL genres, it is yet to make its way into live-action BL.

There are plenty of BDSM themed BL as well as training (調教) style BL where seme/riba/uke can be switch or sub or dom.

Problematizing the Problem

Hence, the argument that conflation of seme/uke with top/bottom is “a PROBLEM” is ironic. The main reason given for that argument is that “het consumers [would] conflate (egregiously & incorrectly) top with male/masculine and bottom with female/feminine.” Here are some things that I think is relevant to think about that:

Why would ‘het people’ or any people for that matter think in terms of male-female / masculine-feminine binaries? Do they think in those binaries only and not other binaries such as wen(文)-wu(武)? Why think in binaries and dichotomies at all? Don’t they not think in terms of multiplicity of genders/gender expressions such as various kinds of masculinities and femininities) based off on their local contexts? 

Do queer people not make such/similar conflations? (Hint: they do.)

Is it a problem? While this seems to be the popular notion, plenty of scholars from across the globe has dismantled it.

What exactly do P’AbsoluteBL think ‘het people’ conflate riba characters with? Feminine-feminine? Masculine-masculine? Neither? Both? Something else?

There are different conceptions of masculinities within a culture which get reflected in cultural goods, including BL, from there. Here are some really old depictions:

Qing dynasty Chinese Water and Land Ritual painting depicting a divine civil official and thunder god in military regalia. [Wen - wu]

Paintings of Padmapani and Vajrapani on either side of the Buddha, from cave 1 of the Ajanta Caves.

Moreover, if the problem is hinging on a particular understanding of seme/uke: the one in which seme is not feminine or uke is not masculine enough. If latter is the issue, it can be fixed by sticking to BL media with otokomae uke or macho uke. If former is the issue, there’s more than enough works with maiden seme and josou seme. If one is yet to encounter any such works, one is not looking far enough.

Masculinities in BL

Here are three central characters from Finder series embodies different types of masculinities – a lot of it is presentation, physical attributes, age, power and social standing. Akihito is a young and vivacious uke who happens to be short and sinewy. Asami Ryuichi is a supadari seme: a guy who is tall, well educated, high earning, with good looks. In addition, he cooks and cleans and cares when he wants to. Fei Long is tall, beautiful and cunning and can be regarded as a riba character. But can any of these characters considered not masculine by regular standards?  Isn’t Akihito masculine enough for his age? And if we are to compare Asami, we are sure to find him lacking but then give him time to grow. They have a dozen years between them. Moreover, can average men stand comparison with a super darling? But then in the grand setup of patriarchy, isn’t power concentrated in the hands of the older men who dominates even the super darlings, both in real world and fictional ones.

Ayase Yukiya & Kanou Somuku from No Money

Consider the case of Ayase, would you call him a “feminine” uke? Probably yes. He is small in stature - petite and cute. He is definitely very small in comparison to his seme Kanou. They probably have one of the most exaggerated size differences and an extreme case of the traditional pairing.

The traditional pairing comes from the customary practice of androphilia in pre-modern Japan. It involves relationship between a wakashu and a nenja or from the tradition of nanshoku. The former is not considered a man by the period’s standards and is considered a third gender by some scholars. The latter is considered as a mentor and lover for the former. While the traditional faded with ‘modernization’, tanbi literary movement (among others) kept alive remnants of it through the writings of the likes of Yukio Mishima.

Note that the youth on the left is wearing a kimono whose style (furisode) and color was considered appropriate for adolescents of both sexes but not adult men, which along with the partially shaved pate denotes the boy's wakashū age status while the exposed bare feet indicates the purely sexual demeanor.

The traditional pairing has clearly inspired Japanese mangaka both BL artists and others. Look at the wakashu in customary androgynous clothing, younger, fairer and even smaller than the nenja, with relatively less experience being embraced by nenja who is in customary male clothing.

Check out more shunga about nanshoku to see visual ancestor of “yaoi”. The visual legacy continued with the likes of Go Mishima. The queers did it first.

From the series "Mishima Go Book of Young Man" - Japan - 1972 (Showa 47)

Ayase in No Money fits into the wakashu ideal. Moreover, the creators of this manga explicitly differentiated between feminine uke with wakashu uke by juxtaposing Ayase with Someya who embodies traditional femininity.

Someya and Honda from Henshin Dekinai

Putting it into perspective, it is noticeable that many a BL involves similar pairing. A lot of criticism BL faces is when it sticks to nanshoku dynamics. Interestingly, critics who can’t imagine genders beyond masculine and feminine, fail to tell apart “feminine” characteristics from wakashu characteristics. But there is no dearth of such dynamics getting subverted in numerous ways in BL:

ship with younger, lower class, petite, androgynous or any combination of customary wakashu characteristics in seme/riba.

ship with all parties being of similar age, class, physical attributes, experience, etc.

Emancipation

Shouldn’t typical uke archetype be seen as an example of subversion of the main character masculinity that dominates media landscape? Shouldn’t they be exalted for being what they are? Uke archetype that allows all genders to project onto and gain pleasure from, is that any less than a marvel in itself?

Pursuer & Pursued

In order to analyses if there is a shift in seme-uke dynamic, the P’AbsoluteBL employs the following to categories who is active:

who is pursuing whom

who makes the first call in terms of declarations and physical touch

who seems to be more in charge of the relationship

In BL, these are never reserved for seme/uke/riba. Who takes on which role depends on the narrative. BL rarely have fixed pursuer-pursued. All parties involved in a ship take on active role in different circumstances.

Take, for example, the original edition of Ossan’s Love, Hasegawa Yukiya employs certain indirect tactics to pursuing Soichi Haruta such as cooking, cleaning and caring for him. (These are tasks that seme/riba/uke usually engage in lighter BLs to gain and retain the attention/affection of the one they are pursuing.) Hasegawa also engages in activities they do together as a means to grow closer. Once he learns of his love rival, he switches up the tactic. He pursues more directly and aggressively. Soichi rejects him. He withdraws and returns to the original tactic but without attempts to grow closer. Soichi feels the loss and tries to get close to Hasegawa but is brushed off. He does not back down. Instead, he takes on a more aggressive route of pursuit - making amends and chasing after Hasegawa.

What P’AbsoluteBL implies with “I think BLIHID’s main couple has a REALLY weak seme/uke dynamic from the get go” is made abundantly clear in with “ShiLei does a lot of active pursuit, also he’s very self actualized.” Here, using pursuer/pursued would have sufficed. Instead, P’AbsoluteBL chose to disappropriate established terms ‘seme/uke’ and imbibed them with implications of “active pursuit” as well as “self-actualization” [regarding queer identity] that seme/uke/riba doesn’t carry originally. Most of it based on biases built on equating all BL to one type of BL: the one with traditional pairing that follows royal road progression.

What P’AbsoluteBL actively avoids discussing is that Beloved in House is basically following the super popular ‘domineering president’ plot based on a BG romance.

Live Action Struggles

P’AbsoluteBL mentions an imagined ‘struggles around seme/uke’ in live-action BL. I think the actual issue plaguing live action BL is the struggle to balance business and other interests while being able to do justice to the diversity within BL as a media genre.

source: (chil-chil.net)

In the chart:

ほのぼの – heartwarming – Example: Restart After Come Back Home

コメディ – comedy – Cherry Magic

ダーク – dark – Sing in Love

シリアス – serious – Cornered Mouse Dream of Cheese

キュン – exciting (kyun) – Mr. Unlucky Has No Choice but to Kiss

Japan has trouble in diversifying its live-action in terms of sub-genres and treatment/mood. Even Thailand, despite the amount it produces have trouble offering variety. Riba couple, maiden seme, yarachin characters, yandere X yandere ship, etc. are either very rare or non-existent in live action BL. Moreover, live action BL is seldom explicit and are mostly in the speculative territory with seme/uke/riba dynamics, making it all the harder to diversify.

Tbh, what fascinated me the most is the “I kind of automatically cringed” part of the question. I would love to know what brought about that reaction. I am sure that it would help shed some light on discourse surrounding BL in general.

Post #2: Blushing Maiden Trope & Seme/Uke

Discussion (intended and in italics) between an anon, @heretherebedork & P’AbsoluteBL on actions and reactions during physical relationships.

The discussion centers around “the character placed into the stereotypically feminine role” being repulsed/reluctant/hesitant when it comes to physical relationships. It is directly attributed to “purity culture in BLs”.

BL have a complicated relationship with “purity” or being “clean”. Tanbi roots of BL hinged on sexuality and obsession with beauty to the point of decadence. Shonen ai (original meaning) works also had characters who are usually promiscuous for one reason or the other, never forming very deep relationship (at least not enough to stick to monogamous unions for long) yet endlessly entangled with other characters, often baffling non-queer characters in those works.

from Song of the Wind and Trees

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[Inviting readers to hazard a guess: who is the seme and who is the uke. Answer at the end of this post.]

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But how explicit the depiction of physical relationships has varied in BL with time and space. Japanese BL with the self-published BL (aniparo / yaoi – original meaning) boom saw very explicit depictions side by side with the commercial BL which have barely any explicit content or those which take a closed-door approach. Now Japanese BL have a wide range in terms of explicit content and have grown to incorporate elements from other genres including gei comi. Korean BL is similarly doing well. It is not uncommon to have chapters or parts of chapter in manhwa and novels dedicated to the celebration of physical relationships. Thai BL also have no dearth of explicit content, especially in web publishing. Chinese BL in its early days had lots of explicit content, especially in self-publishing. But as censors started taking notice and cracking down, authors and platforms clamped down. Most BL were purged of any & all explicit content. Some of it migrated to Taiwanese platforms, AO3 & other foreign hosts. Now all danmei published is “pure love” devoid of even allusion to depiction of any physical relationship beyond above neck action.

When it comes to BL live action, things are a little different. In Japan and to an extend abroad, there has always been overlap between audience of BL and audience of Japanese GVs and pink eiga. Moreover, early live-action Japanese BL was probably aimed exclusively at hardcore BL fans. They were way more explicit on average and did not always involve physical relationship between the main ship. Same seems true about early live-action Chinese BL. A Round Trip to Love Part 2 (2016) even had bondage and SM scenes which wasn’t there in the novel; but then it didn’t have the hard-earned happy ending the novel had either. But now, even dangai with “socialist brotherhood” (社会主义兄弟情) can’t be aired. Meanwhile, Japan’s average BL today lacks much explicit content. This isn’t to say that it doesn’t drop an occasional Sei no Gekiyaku (2020) once in a blue moon. Here are my speculations to why more of those doesn’t get made.

There is another reason for “purity culture” in BL.

Sathaporn Panichraksapong, an MD of GMMTV, a major producer of BL series, claimed that audience members who are mainly heterosexual women look for romantic relationships among the characters rather than sexual relationships.

We know that our audience are [sic] women. Women want to see only two boys having romantic moments together. They don't want to see sex. Sexual relationships in BL are for a gay audience. That's why in SOTUS the Series we have only two kissing scenes. With only these, audiences were already screaming. This is enough for them. (Interview with Sathaporn, GMMTV, 10 Aug. 2017)

Jirattikorn, Amporn. "Heterosexual Reading vs. Queering Thai Boys' Love Dramas among Chinese and Filipino Audiences." (2023).

As Jirattikorn goes on to highlight, this [wrong] perception about the audience (“women”) have changed ever since.

While early BL series tend to portray pure love without showing many sexual relationships, later BL series started to show more sex scenes between the two male lead characters.

Jirattikorn (2023)

“It’s always the character being pursued, who is typically in his first relationship, who Never Thinks Of Sex. They’re often very sweet and innocent and wide-eyed.”

While heretherebedork attributes it to “purity culture”, it can be argued that this has to do with what audience wanted:

I like the way they portray love in Thai BL. It is a kind of puppy love. BL of other nations, like Chinese BL, are darker. In Thai BL, two male characters often start off friends, then develop feelings for each other. It is very light, very sweet. (Krissy, f, 27, Philippines)

Jirattikorn (2023)

and what media houses thought they wanted, as evidenced by Jirattikorn’s interviews with BL fans. This is not to dismiss struggles with purity culture which is often a very slow part of decolonialization.

P’AbsoluteBL goes further to the argument that “purity” is associated with seme/uke dynamics in BL and maps it to typical het pairing (BG):

The stronger the seme/uke dynamic (the more heterosexually dysmorphic and less actually gay) the more likely this trope will manifest. Simply put: the man (because he is hooah a MANLY MAN DUDE) wants sex but the woman (delicate pure flower of cleanliness and joy) does not. And if she does want it she is a DIRTY, worthless, whore - so she MUST protest sex (GASP) at every single turn. (Seme is acting the male and uke the female in these kinds of narratives.) *please sense my sarcasm dumb interwebs, mm’kay?*  

It’s true that the argument seems persuasive but is it right? Probably not. Seme, uke and riba characters can be divided into strong/weak categories based on their characterization - with the strong ones being those who pursue, take initiative, most likely to initiate intimacy at least for their first time, etc. and weak ones being those at the receiving end of pursuits and initiatives. Pairing a strong one with a weak one is probably more traditional –

strong riba x weak riba like in Addicted (at least before time skip)

strong seme x weak uke like in Old Fashioned Cupcake

weak seme x strong uke like in Saezurutori Wa Habatakanai (at least before time skip; pavam Doumeki)

compared to those with both parties being strong (which leads to delectable friction and sparks flying when done right) or both being weak (which leads to audience wondering: will either of them do something? No? Very well!).

BL’s sex negativity

Seme gets overwhelmed by his lust for uke, acts aggressively and has to be shut down or warned off. 

Not only seme, uke and riba characters does this too. P’AbsoluteBL attributes “getting overwhelmed by lust” and “acting aggressively” to seme when it can be attributed to both uke (襲い受け) and riba as well. Other than acting aggressively, characters may employ seduction (eg. Xia Shang Zhou in You Are Mine (2023) - tried and failed & Charlie in Pit Babe (2023) - successful) and/or manipulation (Color Recipe by Harada).

Seme won’t take no for an answer because his needs are too great and his needs take precedence (he’s “the man” after all) and the uke is just TOO CUTE how could anyone resist? (After all the seme is only gay for this one guy because he is so cute. Everything, therefor, is the uke and his cutenesses’ fault.) 

Moreover, P’AbsoluteBL is probably not aware of kawai seme who employ their cuteness to get uke to lower the guard and to seduce. Cuteness is clearly not a uke prerogative.

Like the sailor-costume wearing seme on the cover, cuteness is sometimes invoked through conventionally women’s clothing, cosplaying (maid, sailor, nurse), etc.

If the seme makes the choice to have sex for the uke, then the uke is not at fault and is still technically innocent. Only if an uke wants it, is he actually impure (or actually gay). In H4 when they both comfort and sex shame the bottom after the rape sequence, this is the narrative’s mentality. (A man who does not want sex is assumed to be able to fight another man off.)   Oh and ALSO, the seme must read the uke’s mind and know what the uke really wants.

I don’t even know what went into this argument. There is an entire subgenre: 調教 BL (training / conditioning) that is focused on pleasure training. If a character (seme/uke/riba) wants sex in a narrative, it usually only means that their partner is on the right track. Moreover, when a character wants, actively seeks and are denied intimacy for manipulation reasons, then their partner is made out to be cruel (either 鬼畜 or ゲス・クズ).

In other words, if the uke is interested in sex, he’s made impure by this interest.  Sex of any kind is an act of desperation and indicates lack of control and therefor diminishes both parties but particularly the uke, therefor the uke shouldn’t have to take responsibility of wanting sex, so the decision must be made by the seme for both of them. He is being a “good seme” by doing this. The uke, therefore MUST appear reluctant to have sex, or he is not a good/pure/virtuous person.

Honestly, I haven’t come across BL which gives off this kind of message. However, two-faced scummy characters (seme/uke/riba) get to employ hypocrisy, which includes slut-shaming, to humiliate characters they are shipped with but then such narratives are built to illicit hatred (for scummy characters) and angst and often punished with:

(a) unhappy ending for the couple

(b) breaking up of the ship

(c) groveling which may or may not end in redemption of the scum

(d) switching within ship – uke turns into riba/seme or seme turns into riba/uke – or shift in power dynamics (rich character becomes relatively poorer, junior from school becomes senior/superior in workplace).

A lot of readers find such dramatic plots satisfying and hence it is a successful subgenre.

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Can you guess the seme in these 20 BL manga? Try this quiz on renta.

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Post #3: How do they determine who will be archetype seme/uke?

Discussion regarding seme/uke determination in BL: @elynn0723 & P'AbsoluteBL (intended and in italics).

I think your confusion is partly nested in the fact that seme/uke is not about who fucks who, not really. Certainly not anymore. Seme/uke are narrative archetypes not physical acts.

Disappropritation. Discussed above.

I should say for the record that personality is NOT sexual preference. 

P’AbsoluteBL goes onto give examples (all of which are fictionalized in different genres – GB, BL, etc.) but probably due to being limited by lack of exposure, goes onto ask, “How weird that anyone would think queers do this.” Queers do this. If one is willing to look beyond LGBTQIA+ form of queerness (which is born and brought up in America), one can see queer possibilities. For example, Kothi-Panthi queerness in India/South Asia. It is probably a good idea to pay attention to it when generalizing queerness given how big India/South Asia’s (queer) population is. There are very many similar forms of queerness in other parts of Global South. In many cultures, sexuality doesn’t inform identity but sexual preference does.

[ Aside: Kothi-Panthi model of queerness

This model doesn’t work for whole of India – region (India is so big and heavily populated - different sexual cultures and practices); linguistics (different terms in different region, same terms different meanings in different region, decline of Farsi (used in queer spaces in Delhi) and other queer argot/cant and their replacement with American English internet slang); class & caste (LGBTQIA+ being self-identification of mostly urban/rurban, upper class, English educated v/self- identification common among the sex workers, working class and other lower classes in rural as well as urban spaces who are excluded from consumerist queerness);

NGOfication of queer movement & action; global queering and neoliberal take over leading to americanization –– intermixing & “gay” (and other terms) being used differently by different classes.]

How do they determine who will be archetype seme/uke?

P’AbsoluteBL points to narrative roles - who is “after” the relationship more, and then goes onto claim “the heroine is the main character, the love interest is her love interest. It’s decided for them because it’s a romance novel.” I don’t know if this helps explaining either seme/uke/riba archetypes in BL or pursued/pursuer. Aren’t there romances where hero pursues heroine and the other way around? Aren’t there romances where both party pursue each other?

Even if we assume that androphilic female audience is projecting the sexual mores & expectations imposed on them onto male characters, then by the very act aren’t they subverting those expectations.

How do they determine who tops?

P’AbsoluteBL provides the following schema:

seme = active pursuer

since active pursuer is “the male role”

he should do the penetrating

which has to be done

P’AbsoluteBL also gives a term for this association: heterosexual dysmorphia - "the idea that any couple must fit into predetermined binary gender roles". This is probably coming from a place of ignorance since the example given is confined to musings about sexism concerning the upper class in Global North. Also, at least in the ambit of Kothi-Panthi sexuality, fitting into masculine top-feminine bottom dynamic doesn’t place them into any predetermined binary gender roles. Instead, it only places them in the fluid space of multi-genders: can/are seamlessly float(ing) between being kinnar/hijra/ali and being “cis-men”.

If one is to ask the question: “Which one of you is The Girl?” to a kothi-panthi couple, the kothi would tell you without hesitation: “I am The Girl.” Might even asked you in turn, “Couldn’t you tell?”

Kothi [is the word used by] effeminate men who desire to be penetrated by "real" men whom they call ‘panthi’.

Queer Movements by Paromita Chakravarti & Aniruddha Dutta

Seme/uke/riba archetypes are imbibed with different traits and different spin on personalities that a seasoned BL sommelier might be able to spot easily but would confuse those who are less familiar with all that the genre has to offer. The following excerpt from an analysis by @ranchthoughts reflects the most popular idea about seme/uke dynamics.

Most BL shows can be read through a lens of seme/uke dynamics, which originated in yaoi. The seme is the “pursuer” character and the uke is the “pursued”. There are certain physical (height, skin colour, etc.), social (age, wealth, social capital, etc.), and personality (active vs. passive, extroverted vs. introverted, flirtier vs. shyer) markers which are typically associated with either the seme or the uke. For example, semes tend to be taller, wealthier, older, flirtier, tanner, more active, and have a higher social status, while ukes tend to be shorter, poorer, younger, shyer, paler, and have a lower social status. “Seme” and “uke” roles are also sometimes conflated with masculinity and femininity (semes are “masculine” and ukes are “feminine”) and sexual preferences (semes are dominant and tops and ukes are submissive and bottoms). There are also tropes associated with either the seme or the uke, like ukes typically give cheek kisses and semes forehead kisses. Thus, things like height, age, wealth, personality, presumed sexual preference, and the role they take in tropes can index the character’s status as a seme or a uke, and in turn the character’s identity as a seme or uke in the narrative (pursuer vs. pursued) indexes a character’s personality, sexual preferences, etc., however unrealistic and simplistic that is in real life. In a BL, we would expect the seme (pursuer) and uke (pursued) characters to exhibit most, if not all, of the associated seme or uke traits and roles in tropes, though this is not always true (and some BLs have little to no seme/uke dynamics at all).

There are two interesting things about such an understanding of seme/uke dynamics:

It closely resembles nenja/wakashu dynamics (and its cousins) in the customary and mostly age-stratified androphilia in pre-modern Japan.

Live action BL, at least the ones that were current and popular, stuck mainly to a single type of dynamic: pairing of one seme of a particular kind (スパダリ – super darling) with one uke of a particular kind (ヘタレ – milquetoast). There are barely any riba couple. It is painting picture of BL in monochromes. So much so that Bad Buddy and My School President were seen as some path breaking feat and a break away from “yaoi” tropes by live action audience, rather than seeing them having just another (or less familiar) set of yaoi / BL tropes.

What P’AbsoluteBL identifies as “heterosexual dysmorphia” in “yaoi” is basically what BL inherited from Japan’s pre-modern androphilia including “femininity” in uke from chiago, wakashu and androgynous Kabuki actors and (hyper)masculinity in seme from nenja and others who enacted “the male role”. BL did not passively receive any of these. And for moe, artists and audience alike, subverted it all.

This is true for all tropes that are attributed to seme/uke.

Height difference – Earliest BLs had petite bishonen pairings. Yaoi introduced height differences – all of them: tall seme x short uke short seme x tall uke (this is probably the most sexualized height difference) tall seme x tall uke (with little to no difference) both/all short riba CP/ship both/all tall riba CP/ship tall riba x short riba short riba x tall riba

Cuteness – Used to establish how irresistible a character (seme/uke/riba) is irrespective of their attitudes and behavior are. Oft part of seme’s seduction tactic, especially when uke has a weakness for cute things. Even when cuteness is not one of the seme’s attributes, it is invoked either actively by serving kawai in speech or through actions including cosplay; or passively like in the following example where a typical super darling seme, Asami Ryuichi from Finder unintentionally triggers moe in Takaba Akihito (his uke) by cuddling a baby.

Uke’s cuteness is exploited to establish a sou uke (an uke every other character turns seme for) or subvert the same like in No Money where one of the epitomes of bishonen cuteness, Ayase (uke), who manages to enthrall others however isn’t a sou uke as one might expect and thus subverts the wakashu trope. Moreover, Kanou (seme) wasn’t initially drawn to Ayase due to his cuteness but due to Ayase’s kindness that lifted him out of the abyss of despair, when Kanou was at his weakest.

3. Bulk – BL have main characters (seme/uke/riba) with varying bulk and body types. There is far less diversity when it comes to Live Action BL.

4. Blushing maiden/virginal innocent trope – applies to all sorts of BL characters.

Edit: Conclusion

1. Surprisingly, ethnocentrism and loud echo of colonial masculinity in particular seem to permeate the discourse surrounding BL.

2. I really wish live action BL would have as much diversity as other BL media. Why is it so slow to diversify? Is it because of business interests? Is sticking to super darling X milquetoast pairing with royal road progression a sensible business decision? Or is sexism promoting wrong impressions of what audience want?

3. How come the Japanese terms "seme" & "uke" are used a lot but not "riba"? Where did live action BL audience learn these terms?

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Yaoi = [how P'AbsoluteBL uses it] synonym for ボーイズ ラブ (boys love) manga.

            = [popular use in anglophone BL manga fandom] BL manga with explicit content; as opposed to shonen ai.

            = [original meaning] derivative works, which were mostly plot-what-plot type, that are self-published (doujinshi)

Answer to a question posted above: Gilbert Cocteau – uke in Song of the Wind and Trees

Below is the seme: Serge Battour

from Song of the Wind and Trees

Earliest BL manga had very pretty seme/uke/riba characters (if we are to call them so) and were not too preoccupied with "manliness" or a single type of "masculinity". But, they were surely obsessed with bishonen.

-

[1] 互攻 is also used to indicate POV switching between gong and shou in fiction.

[2] 纯爱 is also used to indicates asexual androphilia.

CP/pairing - involves 2 characters. Ship - involves 2 or more characters.

Inviting @waitmyturtles and @lurkingshan to share your thoughts if any (since I have noticed you guys use the terms "seme" & "uke" as well). Hope you guys don't mind the mention.

[lurkingteapot]

I've seen a couple of folks talking about wanting to learn more about the history of BL, and this is the most comprehensive, up-to-date collection of English-language academic material on the topic I know of. It's maintained by BL scholar Sam Aburime. The website linked above is mostly write-ups with sources cited but a good starting point. If you'd rather dig right into the academic sources, they also keep a spreadsheet with an overview of all the sources cited on the webpage here:

Want to know more about how the BL genre started out? Want to know about the evolution of the genre name from the 1970's tanbi to today's BL? Want to learn about how BL traditions diverged in different cultures that got onto the train of the genre, and what they still share? The genre's place in the history of manga overall? What definitions academics currently use to talk about it? Something else? Chances are there's something for you in there. Go, read, learn!

[nieves-de-sugui]

BL and it’s Shoujo grandma

In the last few years a lot of people have entered the fandom from different pathways and don’t know its history and origins. This post is an effort to clarify some of the whys and the hows of how the genre and industry came to be in the way they have. In this post I want to talk about BL and its connection to Shoujo manga through their tropes.

We all know to some degree (and if you don’t you will now) that BL came from the more traditional romance manga genre: Shoujo. 

Today, BL is its own independent genre, so many people might not know that a lot of what is characteristic of BL, is an evolution or a trace from its Shoujo grandmother. After all, romance is romance, and our hearts flutter very easily with the same tropes over and over again. 

We must also take into consideration that everything in this life influences each other so the limits between genres will never be cristal clear. There is no clear line between Shoujo and BL... but the ambiguity is part of the charm. 

Please be remiended that this is my own thoughts on the matter. It’s a hypothesis I have come up with based on my readings but do not take it as gospel. Anyone and everyone is welcome to add to this post and correct any errors, or comment their own takes on the topic.

Edit: this got so long I’m gonna put it under the cut

Shoujo, as the Romance Manga Genre by definiton, comes from Japan. Even though it is not the only source of romance content, I believe that it has had one of the biggest influences over the mainstream asian romance media. Which, I believe, has a lot to do with the recent history of the region.

First, a little bit of history and context (and some speculation) 

The after effects of  WW2 

Well, Japan’s imperialism and war against the west makes it occupy a big part of the countries of southeast asia and “during this period, GDP in most Southeast Asian countries fell by half; 4.4 million civilians died prematurely; severe shortages of food and goods affected almost all Southeast Asians; and many lived in fear of draconian military rule” ( World War II and Southeast Asia Economy and Society under Japanese Occupation, by Gregg Huff) yes this post has citations people

Overall, Southeast Asia faces economic difficulties, social and ethnic unrest, and political struggles through much of the mid-twentieth century. By the 1980s, conditions have improved, but the “Asian financial crisis” in the late 1990s is a serious setback for the region (source)

All of this to say, that it makes sense that, in such a landscape, it was Japan who, after the American Occupation was the one country with the means to produce and eventually export entertainment. The US wanted to successfuly avoid any resurgance of imperialism and a base in the east on their side for the cold war, and other subsequent wars. This special attention helped the stability and economy of Japan in the long term (compared to all the other countries that had been under its rule).

Manga and Shoujo 

More or less at the same time manga as we know it today started (with Osamu Tezuka, aka the god of manga) around the 50′s. 

First made by men then by women around the 60′s, Shoujo was the genre “for girls” in opposition to Shounen, that was “for boys” (these labels just inform of the content and tropes of the stories you read, there are many other genres but I’m trying to make this short). Women authors took control of the stories that were being told to women audiencies, taking into account what interested them at the time: gender roles, sexuality and romance, among others. 

To me, the most interesting time period for Shoujo after the initial 60′s/70′s (ie, The Rose of Versailles) is the 90′s/early 2000′s (ie, Sailor Moon, Magic Knight Rayearth, Ouran High School Host Club, etc... My favorite shoujo manga come from this time, really really recommend reading some). Which coincidentally happens around the same time as manga’s worldwide boom and expansion. 

How has Shoujo influenced asian media? 

The 80′s/90′s was when manga arrived to the US, and subsequently to the rest of the world. Depending on the country manga became popular at different times, however by the end of the 90′s it was a success worlwide. 

references 

Why I think shoujo manga has had one ot the biggest influences over romance media in Asia

Shoujo manga has been adapted into live action so, so much. Many memorable doramas were mangas first. Boys Over Flowers being the most prominent example of this (we will come back to it later). 

Imo, Shoujo was able to explore a certain amount of themes that interested women at the time, and through manga’s popularity and expansion, those themes came with tropes and ended up becoming the backbone of the genre, influencing other romance media in general. But it has also been influenced by the mainstream trends of tv and interests of the public as it evolves according to the demand. The name does comes from its target demographic. 

Some of the most typical themes we find in shoujo are: 

Interpersonal relationships between characters concentrating on the interaction of their emotions and a lot of inner monologue, aka romance

Gender

Sexuality,

Fashion,

etc...

One of the interesting things here -- going back to the historical context I gave before -- is that Japan’s Constitution (1947), that was made which the US’s supervison, enabled a bigger equality between men and women. Which might be one of the reasons why “characters that defy traditional roles and stereotypes surrounding gender and sexuality have been a central motif of shōjo manga since its origins.” 

General Romantic tropes we find in Shoujo

Romance being one of the main themes of Shoujo, it is inevitable that a lot of what we consider romantic will also be a Shoujo trope. Many of these are just inherent to any romantic theme. What influenced Shoujo or was influenced by Shoujo?  It is hard to tell. Nevertheless, I will do my best to do some sort of categorization. 

General romantic behaviour tropes: kabedon, accidental kiss, feed me, sucking on wound, temperature check, indirect kiss, lap pillow, shirt tug, hair kiss/touch, monster-in-law ...

Other tropes include, not limited to romance but pretty common: we got together kiss/sex, drunken acts, I can’t control myself/I’m a man too, overnight trip, miscomunication, physically hurt/sick moment where they get taken care of, ...

Here are some of the most typical shoujo tropes:

How many times have we seen a scene under the rain, where the use of an umbrella was made very romantic? Or an icy, emotionally closed off man being melted down by a warm woman’s love?

Others shoujo specific tropes: sponge bath, drying hair with a towel, snuff cheek kiss, indirect kiss, unconscious kiss, kiss them to make them take their medicine, bitchy girl rival (because mysoginy), violent defense of loved one, he belongs to everyone (mysoginy and girl rivalry again), accidental meet cute (library/street corner), gender bender, woman dressed up/mistaken as a man, ...

How many shows came to your head (queer or not) while you were reading that list of tropes? A lot of them you know or have seen many times in kdramas, jdramas, cdramas, thai dramas, etc... Probably some of them you didn’t know were a common trope.

Shoujo tropes refs 1

To exemplify the influence of Shoujo Manga on the Romance Media...

Let’s talk Boys Over Flower/ Hana Yori Dango/ Meteor Garden/ F4

Boys Over Flowers (or Hana Dan) is the best example to see the influence of Shoujo tropes in Asian romance, since it has been adapted many times, and is still being milked to this day. 

Contrary to popular belief the taiwanese Meteor Garden did not come first, the manga did. Followed by: the japanese live action movie (1995) >> the anime (1996) >> taiwanese series (s1&2, 2001-2002) >> japanese series (s1&2 + movie, 2005) >> korean drama (2009) >> chinese Meteor Garden (2018) >> japanese spin off Hana Nochi Hare (2018) >> F4 (2021). 

We find all the tropes in BOF: 

love triangle, popular x unpopular, umbrella under the rain, cold ml x warm wl, rich x poor, trapped in an elevator, sick boy, accidental kiss, unfortunate accident that brings you closer, monster-in-law, I leave you because I love you, he belongs to everyone... and many others. 

The overwhelming success of BOF, and it’s many reboots and adaptations made the shoujo tropes a staple of the romance genre (at least in Asia). 

 How does BL appear in all this?

Shoujo and gender and sexuality

BL (or Yaoi or Shounen-ai) started as one of the subgenres of Shoujo (others being Josei (more mature), Horror, Teen’s Love(erotica), Moe, etc). It was a variation on the hetero notion of romantic love, hence the clear paralelism with the gender binary. It slowly started integrating actual queer dynamics later on. The genre in itself has evolved a lot as it has broken free from the Shoujo mantle. It was very very different in the 70's (when it started) to the 2000's (when the hetero style of relationships and dynamics was at its most popular in QLs) to now.

The particular thing about Shoujo is that, besides creating a subgenre about exploring homsexuality, they explored gender and gender roles a lot. Women disguising themselves as men, or characters that did not identify with their assigned gender were and are still very common. Starting with Princess Knight to The Rose of Versailles to Ouran High School Host Club. We see this trope a lot in live action dramas like: Hana Kimi, Coffe Prince, Bromance, Secret Garden, You’re Beautiful, etc...,  And all the historical k-dramas with women disguised as men (Sungkyunkwan Scandal, Scholar Who Walks the Night, Love in the Moonlight, The King’s Affection). Besides it being a theme that clearly interests female audiences, other possible influences on the growing of media exploring this theme might be: the Takarazuka Revue, the newfound equality of sexes thanks to the japanese constitution, and trying to break free of gender roles and societal expectations through media. 

I kinda see it as an accident that shoujo manga authors ended up making queer content. They were questioning social expectations but I don't think they even knew that there were queer people out there to be appealed by it. 

As a quick recap of BL themes through its history, we went from:

the tragic and traumatized european pretty boys (Kaze to Ki no Uta) of the 70′s to

the gay for you, hetero like uke/seme, with problematic content for the sake of drama but with happier endings (Junjou Romantica) of the 2000′s to

the more realistic, featuring characters from the LGBT community variety of content we have now (Given)

BL also eventually gave birth to Bara/Gei Comi (gay comics, by gay men for gay men. Check Gengoroh Tagame’s works to know what I mean), and in some way GL (or Yuri).

BL tropes

Do we find the general romantic tropes in BL? Yes, we do. However there are some that are inherent to BL. Also, as Thailand finds itself at the head of the current BL boom, we also find these tropes to be influenced by thai culture. 

Bishonen boys (beautiful androginous men), uke/seme, rape, gay for you, age gap, psycho boys, ...

I leave here ABL’s posts on the BL characteristics by country, other bl tropes, and Thai BL and tropes. Honestly, they’re the expert on all tropes BL. 

As I have consumed all types of romance media, I can hardly tell what tropes are inhenrent to what genre. However, tropes that are inherent to BL would be:

Many of these are related to sex, which is one of the main themes of BL. There is a lot to be said about sex in BL, particularly in its relationship to violence. There is also a lot of BL that features intentionally toxic relationships and unhealty dynamics. Which is the darked side of the genre, to be explored in another occasion.

Coming back to our main theme, here is an example of the connection and evolution of a shoujo trope into a BL tropes.

BL tropes evolved from Shoujo: Rooftop confession

Rooftops belong to the gays now and it should be known. It is a very well known trope used all over genres, but it is has become an very significative one in BLs.

image sources 1 2

Final Toughts

While preparing for this post I decided to research a little about SE Asia’s recent history, as I have been made aware recently that not only thailand is rising in it’s entertaiment production, but Cambodia is rising in the music sphere. All these industries that are sprouting from Southeast Asia, made me wonder why. And my elation when I realized there was a reason why! It all started to get into place in my head.

I have wanted to make this post for a while. In a lot of the conversations we’ve been having in the fandom around shows recently made me realize that a lot of the new fans get into BL without having encountered Asian dramas before or just partially. Lots of the analysis made and the questions posed around BL shows have a partial answer in the context of how the genre came to be and how its intertwined with every other piece of Asian media. 

The purpose of this post is to give more detail into how BL is influenced by a lot of the general romance genre, which a lot of the fandom might not know in depth. I hope this clearifies some things for those who search to understand why this or that trope or action happen in a show where it might not make sense, or it might be out of place, or just strange. 

As Thailand media is growing, we see how they use what is popular in their favor, while adding a bit of their own personal culture to it. It’s interesting how we can see the kdrama or manga influences. And talking about it and questioning them makes me excited for more. 

This will be a series of posts. I have decided to make a post about the general history of BL. Which will be accompanied by another, smaller post where I want to talk about the Yaoi Debates (Yaoi Ronso) and the use of trauma and rape in BLs, as it has been a topic of conversation recently. 

A big thank you to @waitmyturtles​ for her Old GMMTV Challenge, which has promted a lot of conversation about BL and has also made me want to participate in them. I hope this can be complementary to your watches and helps you understand the genre and how it came to be.  

[lurkingshan]

hi!! i was wondering if you could recommend some good high school japanese (or from other countries) bls? all this time i avoided them cause i felt old and uncomfortable but yesterday i finally watched one and the pureness and warmth of these sweet kids experiencing their first love really warmed my heart and brought back memories of my own first crushes. thank u in advance and I hope u have a wonderful day!

Hi anon! I firmly believe we are never too old to be swept away by the nostalgia of a good high school show. There are specific emotional buttons that get engaged by a coming of age or first love story, and it's comforting to see both reflections of experiences that were similar to our own and fantasy versions of a high school experience we never got to have. I support you venturing into high school bl!

This is not a comprehensive overview of all bls with high school age characters, but a solid list of great shows that center that high school coming of age/first love experience in their stories, in a mix of moods and tones. I'll start with some favorites from Japan, and then include a few from other countries, as well. I hope you like some of these!

Japan

I Cannot Reach You

This is a classic friends to lovers first love story done exactly right. I don't know anyone who watched it only once, it's so satisfying.

If It's With You

A boy who is jaded before his time meets an earnest hottie when he moves to a new town and school. Feelings ensue.

My Love Mix Up

This one puts the com in romcom, with a confused bisexual chaos muffin setting off a comedy of errors as he tries to figure out who actually likes who among his classmates.

Takara-kun to Amagi-kun

A simple story of two boys trying to navigate their first relationship and figuring out how to go about dating and interacting at school.

Eternal Yesterday

On the tragic end, this is a story of first love that ends abruptly due to accidental death. The story is an exploration of the grief and stunted growth that results when someone so young suffers a loss so monumental. It's an absolutely beautiful show, but not a light watch.

Philippines

Marahuyo Project

This is a gorgeous show about a brash and loud and proud gay kid who gets sent to live on a small island after an incident at school, and decides to create an LGBTQ+ club at his new school. This one has a social education agenda, but it's also very funny and sweet.

South Korea

Light on Me

The story of a confident gay boy and his love triangle where you will actually like everyone involved! A rare gem in these drama streets.

Where Your Eyes Linger

And on the angstier side, this one is the story of two friends, one of whom has been raised to be a caretaker/bodyguard for the other, struggling with a realization of feelings between them. The power dynamic and social class divide between them feature heavily.

Taiwan

History 3: Make Our Days Count

Possibly a controversial pick, as this one has a tragic ending that is hard for a lot of people to stomach. But it's a great high school show that includes two first love stories, one between a beautiful himbo and the studious boy who catches his eye, and the other between his very sweet best friend and an older man he meets through his job.

About Youth

This first love story between two very nice boys struggling with school and family issues manages to be incredibly sweet while also dealing with some heavy topics, and features a couple amazing original songs that still get stuck in my head all the time.

The On1y One

This is such a pitch perfect high school story that I'm putting it on this list before it technically finishes airing. Two high school boys meet when their parents move in together and decide to get married, and begin to heal each other. This one nails the angst and yearning.

Thailand

My School President

Possibly one of the cutest high school romcoms of all time, and it features a student band so there are a ton of original songs. This is a story about a boy who runs for class president just so he can save his crush's music club. It's two nice boys who like each other and the shenanigans they get up to with their friends.

I Told Sunset About You

And for the completely opposite experience: the ultimate angsty coming of age queer awakening story. One of the most beautiful dramas I have ever seen, and so evocative and emotionally resonant that it is actually hard for some people to watch because it's too real.

[maybe-boys-do-love]

It's wild that the whole global trend of gay-focused happy ending romance shows and movies has only been going on for *looks at calendar* a measly ten years!

Just ten years ago. 2014. That's when you get the discovery of a market for queer romance series and films with happy endings. That year the OG Love Sick in Thailand came out. Brazil puts out The Way He Looks, which deserves so much more credit than it receives for influencing the aeshtetics of the genre. Looking premieres on HBO, and despite low ratings, it's an important touchstone. South Korea has the darker Night Flight. And, despite Nickelodeon’s censorship and shifting the program from tv to its website, the Legend of Korra confirms Korrasami in its season finale.

The next year, in 2015, we get Love Sick season 2, and China, pre-censorship laws has a few options: Happy Together (not the Wong Kar Wai one lol), Mr. X and I, and Falling In Love with a Rival. Canada, premieres Schitt's Creek. In the US, Steven Universe reveals Garnet as a romantic fusion between two female characters, and will proceed to just be so sapphic. Norwegian web series Skam premieres and sets up a gay protagonist for its third season, which will drop in 2016 and entirely change the global media landscape.

Then, 2016! This is the MOMENT. That aforementioned Skam season happens. Japan puts out the film version of Ossan's Love and anime series Yuri!!! on Ice. China has the impactful Addicted Heroine, which directly leads to increased censorship. The US has Moonlight come out and take home the Oscar. In Thailand, GMMTV enters the BL game and Thai BL explodes: Puppy Honey, SOTUS, Water Boyy, Make It Right, plus, the Thai Gay OK Bangkok, which, like its influence, Looking, is more in the queer tradition but introduces two dramatically important directors to the Thai BL industry, Aof and Jojo.

By 2017, Taiwan enters the game with its History series. Korea’s BL industry actually kicks off with Method and Long Time No See. Thailand’s got too many BLs to mention. Call Me By Your Name, though not a happy ending, makes a big splash that will send ripples through the whole genre, and God's Own Country offers a gruff counter-argument to problematic age differences and twink obsessions. This is also the year of Netflix reboot of One Day At a Time bringing some wlw to the screen, and the Disney Channel has a main character come out as ‘gay’ on Andi Mack ( I’m am ready to throw fists with anyone who thinks the Disney Channel aesthetic isn’t a part of current queer culture). And I'd be remiss not to mention the influential cult-following of chaotic web-series The Gay and Wondrous Life of Caleb Gallo: "Sometimes things that are expensive...are worse."

All this happened, and we hadn’t even gotten to Love, Simon, Elite, or ITSAY, yet.

Prior to all this there are some major precursors some of which signaled and primed a receptive market, others influenced the people who'd go on to create the QLs. Most significantly you have Glee, and its ending really makes way for the new era that can center gay young people in a world where queerness, due to easy access to digital information, is less novel to the characters. And the QL book and graphic novel landscape was way ahead of the television and film industries, directly creating many of the stories that the latter industries used.

There's plenty of the traditional queer media content (tragic melodramas and independent camp comedies) going on prior to and alongside QL, and there are some outlying queer romance films with happy endings that precede the era but feel very much akin to QL genre tropes and goals (Saving Face, The Wedding Banquet, Big Eden, Maurice, My Beautiful Launderette, and Weekend). I don't mean to suggest that everything I’ve listed ought to be categorized as QL.

Rather, I want to point out how all of these new-era queer romance works are in a big queer global conversation together, in the creation of a new contemporary genre, a genre that has more capacity and thematic interest to include digital technology and normalize cross-cultural relationships than other genres (there's a reason fansubs and web platforms are so easily accepted and integrated to the proliferation genre).

You're not too late to be part of the conversation. Imagine being alive in the 1960s and 70s and participating in the blossoming of the sci-fi genre. That flowering is where gay romance sits now. Join the party.