#between fanon vs canon dynamics

[erinwantstowrite]

people underestimate how close tim and dick are and it is driving me NUTS

you get me oh my god,,, alighterwood and i talk about this ALL the time

like, i do love the dynamics between jason and damian and the rest of the bats!! do not get me wrong, i think they have lots of potential and the writers did us dirty in some cases. it's fun to explore them. however, tim and dick's brother relationship is so impactful to the entire story between them that it's insane no one talks about it more? or practically no one??

tim learned their identities through dick grayson, robin, not batman. he looks up to both of them but robin was his hero. when jason died and tim knew something needed to be done, he went to dick first above all else (technically, he went back to the circus). he trusted that nightwing (his robin) would be able to do something about it. he wasn't aware of just how deep dick and bruce's fight went but he knew who to go to about it. dick brought him back to the manor and tim became robin because of it. he was involved in tim's time as robin, he was the person that tim could go to about his insecurities, he was the one that tim went to about his relationship/family/friendship/life problems. he learned how to be the hero he is because of dick (and bruce, but this is about him and dick).

they were brothers before jason came back, before damian, before tim even met steph, etc. when tim was, in fact, going a little crazy (even if he was RIGHT, that doesn't mean he wasn't losing his mind at least a little bit, Tim Stans) about bruce being alive, dick was WORRIED about him!! because that's his brother!! he didn't threaten to send tim to arkham, he wasn't even the one who planned to give damian robin!! dick picked up the batman mantle because he felt there was no other choice (do not get me started on how gotham does not actually need BATMAN, but his spirit) and with that came the responsibility of looking after BOTH of his brothers. brothers. not children. dick can do a lot of things but he is not infallible. it was a shitty situation and it does not soley reside on his shoulders. tim had a right to feel hurt that no one was listening to him, but... y'all. he dropped out of school, he was kind of going off the deep end with how many other people died in his life around that time (his BEST FRIENDS) so of course dick was like "hey dude..."

tim is the closest to dick in the family, he looks up to dick as if he IS infallible in a lot of ways. that's his BIG BROTHER and also his personal hero. his favorite person. and dick cares about him just as much

can you tell alighterwood and i have such strong feelings about this?

[thecoolerliauditore]

Very Long Post about Flower Husbands, Interpretation and Character vs Content Creator

This is a toxic flower husbands post. Btw.

I'm not sure when or why it happened but somewhere between limlife and the 24th joelshipping discourse cycle, "flower husbands is toxic" became a mainstream opinion on both here and traffictwt, usually sourcing Scott's ingame words and actions as evidence.

This interpretation has existed within the fandom for a fairly long time, although the words "toxic" and "abuse" were often omitted. Here's one example of a popular post that implied FH was less than ideal for Jimmy.

This does not mean the interpretation was widely accepted, however - hell, I even put this under a cut and warning for a reason. For every toxic FH believer that comes crawling out of the woodwork there comes another post defending their legacy.

For the record, despite what some threads on twt I've read seem to imply: There is nothing morally wrong with liking a mcyt ship regardless of what discomforts other people see in it. There is no explicit "wrong" way to interpret the series. There is no canon. It's fandom shit. It's not that serious.

However, I'm unfortunately abnormal about this series and possibly mcyt as a whole. So I'm forced to grapple with the fact that most non-toxic flower husbands posts seem to either self-contradict or come off as purposefully trying to incite some sort of culture war. As such, here's a list of common arguments I see proposed against the toxic flower husbands interpretation and why I personally don't find them convincing:

The CC Side of Things

Alot of anti-toxic flower husbands posts will accuse toxic flower husbands fans of disliking Scott, the content creator IRL guy, and often imply the interpretation is born out of homophobia -- usually through some variation of the phrase that the interpretation villainzes "the only openly gay CC in the series"

I take issue with this. While Scott is the only homosexual CC in the series, Cleo and Martyn have both been here since 3L and are both very openly queer. Gem has also since joined. You could argue that Scott is The Gayest but that's opening a can of worms in terms of queer discourse I don't think I want to go touching anytime soon.

Even if he was the Only Queer CC In the Series, applying different standards of fanon to Scott just because he is gay feels.. wrong to me. In the same way it's often argued that Jimmy does not need to be babied from his friendship dynamic, Scott too is a grown man who can simply choose to not look at fanart/fanfic if it upsets him, which from what I have personally observed, he hasn't shown any sign of feeling "uncomfortable" by more intimidating or villainous portrayals in the past.

Here's an example of him liking my art that did not paint him in a completely morally good light.

Why can't gay people be calculating? Controlling? Abusive? Why are we applying a higher standard of morality to the gay CC when the rest of the fandom is having the time of their life calling Grian a homophobe, a murderer, calling Scar an arsonist, calling Martyn a loser and pathetic, so on and so forth. Is telling a story about an abusive gay relationship any more "problematic" than telling a story about an abusive straight relationship?

I don't want to imply anything about peoples intentions but it feels sometimes, to me, that the "homophobia" card is being played out of some obligation to protect Scott and his brand rather than out of genuine concern for homophobia in the fandom -- because then, I ask, where is that energy for critiquing the homophobic humour prevalent in CC circles?

I've certainly heard Jimmy make jokes about Scott's sexuality in videos before. Where's the breakdowns of the infamous "I am a straight man and would like to be represented as such" incident from Pirates? Where's that energy for referring to shipping as a "bit" or Etho "gagging" at fanart of him and Bdubs?

I'd even go to argue, in terms of homophobic caricatures, Martyn and Iskall are both often more akin to the classic "gay guy in love with you who won't take no for an answer" stereotype than Scott has been. Martyn at least we know is queer, does it simply not matter in his case? Despite the fact that Martyn is very much more villainized than Scott is, to the point where his Limlife win is often portrayed as maniacal and cackling rather than with the solemn acceptance of Scott's LL win or the heartbreak and regret of Grian's 3L win? Please know that I personally Do Not find these portrayals homophobic (although the Iskall side of things has peeved me in the past), I'm just questioning why homophobia in the fandom seems to start and end with one guy only.

In addition: "internalized homophobia" is certainly a thing, but the vast majority of toxic FH fans in my circle at least are very much gay. We're on Tumblr. Fork found in kitchen. I've seen more than one person express that Scott's behaviour in one or several of the seasons was reminiscent of a toxic or abusive ex, or reminded them of some other trauma. It just seems unkind to me to claim "homophobia" and then turn and tell very gay people talking about their very gay experiences that they are somehow The Problem.

Jimmy Likes It, Though

Often in response to toxic flower husbands posts, people will cite the many times Jimmy has said in the past that he actively requests to be bullied, as part of his youtuber persona, since he finds it funny.

I've always found this kind of strange, since unlike the homophobia claims which 99% of the time are unambiguously about the content creators, this is often said in response to people talking about the series as a story with characters first and foremost.

While the area of interpretation differs for all of us, most people do not choose to include behind-the-scenes youtube talk as part of their storyline, since this detail changes Jimmy's character drastically and impacts the tone of the series overall. So what, they were dropped into a death game arena and Jimmy... told everyone they should bully him, cus he thought it'd be funny? Offscreen, with no interactions or monologue in the series itself even alluding to it? It's kind of awkward to work in and there's really no reason to if what you are invested in is viewing the series as essentially an ultra meta theatre performance.

Now, I personally do work in some out-of-series material into my headcanons and interpretation, so let's say that Is a canon part of Jimmy's character -- maybe he knew the group beforehand and this was their established dynamic, or he simply offscreened it all. Now we have to deal with the fact that this is interpretation and the unreliable narrator aspect of the series.

Jimmy (the character) might've asked for this, but under what circumstances? Why does he want this? Is this really healthy behaviour or is it self-destructive? I never see this explored and instead "Jimmy says it's okay" is treated as word of god, which I find to be painful to deal with when it comes to this series (I'll get to this later).

Even if we throw out the character side of things completely, there are perfectly valid issues to have with this dynamic. I've seen people debating the ethics of presenting this type of humour to a young impressionable audience, I've seen people who find it upsetting because it reminds them of their own toxic friendships. CCs have no authority here, Jimmy does not decide where peoples discomfort starts and ends.

I admit this is a far reach, but indulge me and imagine for a second if the roles were switched and the homophobic jokes about Scott were what was leaned in to but Scott claimed he "liked being bullied". Would that be okay too?

People are Allowed to Dislike the Real Guy, it's Okay

There are plently of reasons to dislike CC!Scott that aren't rooted in homophobia, I can assure you.

Let's put it this way: Scott does not have to read this post if he doesn't want to. In fact, he'd have to actively go out of his way to see it in the first place. The fanfic writers are not calling him an abuser in his youtube comments section. This fandom bullshit is not clogging his notifications.

I don't dislike CC!Scott, I don't love him either but I think he's just kind of your average kind of a loser youtuber guy. But even if someone truly did find him to be the most abhorrent human being to walk the earth, talking about it on tumblr should not hurt him. You often see reminders that Jimmy is a grown man who can speak up if he finds things in videos hurtful, and I'd go on to argue that the same logic is never given to Scott who is, also, a grown man who can control his internet usage.

It's all just Minecraft and jokes

The most buzzkill of all rebuttals, in my opinion, is this argument that toxic flower husbands is "taking it too seriously" and that they are just "friends playing Minecraft".

Like when people bring up Jimmy's behind the scenes request, this confuses me because it is brought up 99% of the time to rebut posts that treat the series as a storyline rather than a youtube playthrough. You can't have the grief of Scott losing his husband and Grian's despaired suicide and Pearl's sanity slippage and still acknowledge that it is all "friends playing minecraft".

In fact I'd even argue flower husbands is pretty non-toxic if you look at it Purely from a friends playing Minecraft perspective, but that is never the case. Scott's grief over Jimmy's death is treated with utmost seriousness, but Scott hitting Jimmy for not listening to him or wanting to "whittle him down to nothing" never is. It's this pick-and-choose that drives me insane more than anything else.

In addition to this, while I might be mistaken, it seems like most FH fans are not super accepting of RPF so I wonder what the intent is in the first place.

Furthermore, I do find it odd when it seems like the issue is that abuse specifically is "taking it too seriously" in a series where murder is pretty much the main theme. Adultery is mentioned multiple times in Double Life. Martyn even says the words "toxic relationship" in Double Life regarding himself and Cleo. It's clearly something that is referenced directly in the series and not any darker than what is already commonly accepted in fanon, so I don't understand why it's such a taboo and gets hit with the "no fun allowed" stick more than Scar being a cannibal serial killer.

With the same logic, I could argue that Scott was serious when he said Jimmy was useless, redundant, etc. and joking when he said he was sad his husband died but. I don't do that. Because that'd be insane

But Scott Loved Jimmy

Onto the stuff that's more purely in-universe, the argument is more uncommon now but I used to see alot of claims that flower husbands couldn't have been toxic because Scott "loved" Jimmy, usually citing the positive interactions the two do have throughout Third Life.

I think this is kind of difficult to talk about because, to me, it comes from a genuine misunderstanding of how abusive relationships work and what they look like. I won't lecture the reader on the theory behind abusive relationships and the trauma bonding cycle but I will say that the good does not balance out the bad and sometimes, context is severely lacking.

E.g. the cake. Late in the series Scott bakes a cake for Jimmy and hides it for him to find. This is a moment that I think is fascinating because it showcases both Scott's genuine care for Jimmy and the sadism he gets out of Jimmy's suffering at the same time. Jimmy is actively afraid of the cake, says to Scott that he thinks it's a trap and tries to get Scott to try it instead because Scott was still on green. Scott simply laughs and pushes Jimmy to try it, later mocking Jimmy for being scared at all.

Scott not taking Jimmy's fear seriously in this scene always seems to get cut out, or is paired with the usual insistence that it's okay because it's a "joke", and the cake itself is what is focused on.

Long story short: Abusers can love and care for their victims, abusers can be romantically attracted to their victims, abusers can feel trapped in the cycle just as much as the victim (e.g. the classic "look what you made me do" wifebeater excuse).

"Home?" "Home." and Word of God

In a similar vein, lots of people point to Scott's Third Life ending as proof their relationship had a happily ever after. This is one example of a trend I see within rebuttals where Scott's word is often treated as canonical Word of God.

Word of God, for those unaware, is the concept in storytelling of communicating definitive, unbiased information to the audience. Some iconic examples would be the Star Wars intro scroll, or any of the "once upon a time..." set-ups in fairy tales. Sometimes a character will temporarily possess Word of God and lose it later, such as Katara's intro narration in ATLA.

The subversion of Word of God would be Unreliable Narrator, where the person telling you the information is, in some way, not to be trusted. Some media play entirely on this concept, the Stanley Parable being one iconic example.

My personal interpretation of the traffic series is that every POV is unreliable narrator, with some being worse offenders (e.g. Scar and Martyn). I feel like it does a disservice to other POVs if you simply take one as Word of God, since some characters really do seem different until you see their side of things (some poignant examples would be Last Life Joel, Last Life Scar and Double Life Pearl). However, I must say again, this is not Correct nor is taking one POV as Word of God Wrong. That's just the rules I'm used to operating under.

So first off, operating within my rules: the "home?" "home." scene only appears in Scott's POV and is never acknowledged outside of that one scene. Jimmy clearly remembers the events of Third Life but never says a thing about him and Scott's shared afterlife (more on Jimmy's behaviour post-3L in a bit) and neither does Scott himself. To me this scene has always been either a tragic dying hallucination or an outright lie Scott invented to cope with the events of Third Life. I don't think there's any reason for me to believe the Jimmy in this scene is really Jimmy.

With that being said: taking the scene at face value as something that actually happened and it being a real afterlife Jimmy and Scott were sent to, there are still sinister elements that go entirely unacknowledged. Scott specifies that the flower valley was decorated to his plans, never mentioning Jimmy's, the same valley he previously insinuated he designed specifically so that he'd be "over" Jimmy.

Including Last Life and beyond as part of canon: this is very much not the "happily ever after" for Scott and Jimmy as. Well. They don't stay there and end up getting thrust into another death game where, again, this scene is never spoken about again and Jimmy only acts more and more antagonistic towards Scott as the seasons progress.

Disregarding Last Life and beyond: there is so much ambiguity that it's hard to take it all at face value, are there any other players in this place? Are Scott and Jimmy doomed to die knowing no one and nowhere else? Can Jimmy walk 15 minutes westward and come across the home of the guy who murdered him? Or is this a paradise where all the players can remain? What about Scott, is he going to go back to treating Jimmy the same way he did when they were both alive? How does he deal with the fact that his dead husband is suddenly back?

I do think this last one (taking Scott's POV as word of god + disregarding everything past this point) is the closest you're gonna get to an entirely non-toxic reading of this scene, but even then you'd have to work with the previous episodes of Scott hitting and berating Jimmy continuously.

Finally, one last issue I take with the "Scott's word = Word of God" interpretation is that it is, once again, inconsistent. If Scott ever says anything to contradict his "good husband" persona it's written off as a joke, but him saying that Pearl "cheated on him" is treated as if she really did commit adultery. There's also things that are just ignored, such as Scott saying "You guys (the audience) are obsessed with flower husbands, when really it's just been me and Pearl," in Secret Life -- words that would imply he really did not care that much for Jimmy.

"Nuance."

I see people just saying the word "nuance" or "scott isn't abusive it's more nuanced" like that's an actual sentence with worth really often. I'm sorry this section is harsh but "nuance" is not an argument, abusers can have nuance, real people are always nuanced and real people can be abusers. To imply that abuse cannot be "nuanced" is a little insulting to me.

Please just say "idgaf" and move on this isn't politics we don't need flower husbands centrism

Jimmy is the Abusive One

This one drives me insane but I see it fairly often and I. honestly don't know what to make of it. Sometimes it's coupled with an insistence that you can make anyone in the cast abusive if you try hard enough which... yeah I, I agree. We're agreeing here.

Seemingly most prominent during Limited Life, there's some claims that people are unfair towards Scott and that Jimmy is the real abuser, but I find the examples of his behaviour weak more often than not because they are usually 1. in direct response to something Scott did, 2. using psychic powers to sense characters motives (such as claiming he is guilt tripping people when he apologizes when nothing suggests that is the case) or 3. behaviour that not only is not toxic, but is very much harmless

Examples of the third one include things such as him refusing to say "love you" back to Scott during Limited Life and Secret Life, which he is not obligated to do. Some people insist he "owes" it to Scott somehow for Third Life which I find not only overestimating how much Scott aided Jimmy during Third Life (Jimmy Did die first, after all) but kind of. Dangerous? To say that you can somehow "owe" another person love and affection if they perform enough chores for you.

Another is the claim that Jimmy acts overly flirtatious with other men which hurts Scott which. I feel like needs an essay or two on slutshaming to make my point clear.

What really does me in is that this point is often paired with the insistence that Flower Husbands Would Be perfect if Jimmy just stopped "acting out" and did what Scott wanted him to. I don't really know how to explain why I find that kind of bad.

To me, it seems as if it's almost an admission that the further away from Third Life you get, the more clear it becomes that Jimmy does not have the highest opinion of Scott and in order for the non-toxic interpretation to still apply you need to stretch things, which often comes with the unfortunate side effect of saying some historically not awesome things about people like Jimmy.

Why Only Scott?

This often comes in hand with the first point about homophobia, with claims that Scott is the only one accused of being abusive to Jimmy, when others like Grian and Joel are the same if not worse.

This is another take that's strange to me because.. It's just untrue? I think it might be the shock of the culture shift of toxic fh that's spearheading this, but most of the smallidarity stuff I've seen, for example, come with some level of acknowledgement that Joel is a massive bitch. Sometimes it's through bully x victim AUs or storylines where he learns the error of his ways, but he's a bitch to Jimmy like. Most of the time.

Solidarian is a much lower sample rate ship for a character with a way too high sample rate but Grian characterization ranges from "pure evil watcher who feeds off suffering" to "previous abuse victim with trust issues". Very few times have I seen Grian presented as purely good in interpretations.

MOST of the jausage stuff I've seen is straight up sausage being. Weird.

There was a hilarious confessions blog anon awhile back that tried to claim shipping scarian was somehow morally wrong because Scar(???) abused Grian(???). It happens.

To add to this: very few of Jimmy's other romantic interests were literally calling himself his "husband" while hitting and berating him. The only other "canon" couple I can think of that come close is Jizzie and the way Lizzie will sometimes hit Joel, but that is primarily outside of the life series and their crimes against eachother in the series are always capstoned by almost cartoonish antics of "still love you, tho" (e.g. Joel putting Lizzie's stuff in a chest after she gets killed by a zombie or them choosing to team up Despite it All near the end of Last Life) -- I have more thoughts regarding them but this isn't the toxic jizzie post so I'll leave it at that.

Very, very rarely will I see someone who believes flower husbands is toxic but thinks joel/grian/fwhip/sausage/etc. are Completely fine. I also think it might just be that people talk about Scott more since Flower Husbands is the Iconic Ship and that gets numbers biased into people Only thinking Scott is bad for Jimmy.

It could also be argued that some of the Double Life pairings have the same level of toxic married couple energy that Flower Husbands does, but I'd argue that the soulbounds have enough variety that interpreting them as wholly romantic is difficult to do. There was also less hype overall with some of the most "toxic" pairings in DL, such as Impdubs or Box Boys, which makes it hard to find content for them -- I did a whole little liveblog of it calling Impdubs toxic as fuck. Y'all just didn't see it. Most of DL's toxic relationship themes also come from divorce quartet but admitting that those four have romantic tension in-universe gets you sniped in this economy.

To end: I talk about Scott more than the other guys because. I like him more. I like talking about people I like.

Conclusion (AKA who fucking cares)

I feel the need to restate my intro: no one actually fucking cares.

I've been talking about inconsistency in the "rules" of interpretation throughout this and I stick by my word but I think I'd have to mention that, in order to view this series as a storyline in the first place, you'd have to make some exceptions. I don't listen to the lines about youtube or viewers or when Grian talks about planning the series. I don't think it'd be Wrong to view Scott's POV as Word of God, disregard everything that implies he's a bad husband, not consider anything past "home?" "home." canon, so on. It would not be an interpretation I, some random asshole on tumblr, enjoy personally but if you're having fun you really should not give a shit about me.

However that doesn't mean people can't be rude or just straight up wrong or hypocritical when they claim toxic flower husbands interpretations are "homophobic" despite being antagonistic towards the gay people writing them in the first place (I've seen a ridiculous amount of middle school level namecalling for like no reason??) or claim that the interpretation is for people who "haven't watched their POV" as if a certain takeaway of a minecraft series presents you with some sense of superiority for understanding the cube guy harder than those horrible, horrible HATERS who think Scott killing himself over and over is sad to watch.

Oh and don't mention Pearl's role in all of this the only time I've seen someone try to bring her up I had to read it like five times and I'm still not quite sure I understand

[sokkastyles]

I have a question, I know we know that shipping does not equal morality. And I get that, and I really like that. However, on my other blog, that should have been my main blog (yes I am that dumb). I have talked about Aang's non-consensual and criticized how Kataang is written, however, if you ship Kataang I won't come for your throat because that's not my style. I know the few misogynists/antis on here and on Twitter, and I don't want to let a few bad apples be my impression of a fandom, that's not fair, So now I'm side-eyeing myself over my past remarks. Likewise, I know shipping is not equal to morality, but I also want to criticize Kataang because of how flawed it is and how wrong that kiss was (and other things). I have no idea what I'm saying because at this point I'm rambling. What do you think?

Well, there is a difference between criticizing a ship and criticizing canon. I don't honestly care what people ship. I use the antikataang tag because I don't want to argue with people who do ship it, but that doesn't mean I won't be critical of what is in the show. I think expecting people not to engage critically with media is absolute nonsense. But there is a difference between engaging critically with the actual media and criticizing people's fanon or headcanons, which is where you get away from critically engaging with canon and move into the area of criticizing other people's opinions, which is how arguments start.

Like, there isn't really any actual concrete argument you can make to criticize zutara, because zutara does not exist in canon. It's all fanon and headcanons and speculation. And criticizing other people's opinions just makes you look like a dick.

You also have to take into account the intention behind something. The thing about the way Katara's relationship with Aang is presented is that we're supposed to root for Aang to get Katara, and every obstacle towards that end is just there to create dramatic tension for the male point of audience identification. That's the real problem with the noncon kiss, and people who are critical of it are right to point it out.

In contrast, when I say shipping isn't morality, I'm talking about people who write, let's say, dubcon zutara fics. Fanfiction as a genre is largely female-centered fantasy. Yes, even those lurid fics you're thinking of. People write and read these fics for completely different reasons and have completely different expectations than when watching a series like ATLA. Trying to say that someone can't criticize the way the show presents Aang kissing Katara after she said she was confused as a mistake to be glossed over (that is forgotten as soon as it happens) because they also happen to like reading darkfic is nonsense. There's also a long history of women's interests being policed that informs my views here, vs the fact that consent has only fairly recently become a conversation in mainstream media. You have only to look at the way the show itself portrays Katara having interests (especially in boys) outside of Aang as dark and dangerous to see this happening in ATLA itself. Or the way the creators got away with saying that zutara shippers are doomed to end up in abusive relationships while painting Aang as a typical Nice Guy stereotype who expects Katara to magically become his girlfriend (and gets angry when she doesn't) and seeing nothing wrong with it.

The thing is that zutara, if we look at the way it's written in canon as a metaphor for a romantic relationship, follows the same tradition of how fanfiction has historically existed as an exploration of romantic and sexual dynamics. Those conversations about consent are actually happening and being explored in fanfiction, even the dark stuff, whereas relationships that are presented as "wholesome" often push us to NOT have those conversations. So when I say shipping isn't morality, what I actually mean is that noncanon shipping and darkfic actually has more of a moral leg to stand on than uncritically engaging with relationships on the grounds that Aang is the hero so his goodness and worthiness to get the girl should just be assumed. Zuko has to work for his right to be in a relationship with Katara because he didn't start out from a place of goodness, and that, on its own, is very female centered because instead of starting out from the perspective of the male hero deserving a relationship by virtue of being the hero, we see the idea that a man has to work to gain a woman's respect and affection.

So it's not so much that I hate KA, but I hate the idea that we should engage in it uncritically. And that would be true even if it really was the most wholesome relationship in the world. The same thing cannot be true of zutara because even the darkest of darkfic are about women centering themselves in the narrative and engaging with power dynamics in ways that are subverting patriarchal norms about relationships by definition.

[zenkindoflove]

I have a new hypothesis about why the ACOTAR fandom is so weird.

And I think it's because there is a difference between the people who enter this fandom as shippers and the people who enter because they like the romance genre*.

I think many life long shippers enjoy romance. Maybe they don't always seek out the genre but they see romance in whatever media they are engaging with and they take those characters and put romance spins on them even if those characters aren't from a romance story. You ship because of a feeling. You see a dynamic or maybe you think about what a dynamic could be and then suddenly you're pulled in. Like falling in love. But you're falling in love with the idea of a couple. How that couple ends up becoming in canon is independent about how thinking about them together makes you feel.

I think romance readers aren't necessarily shippers*. They enjoy reading romance in a romance canon but they don't necessarily ship in the way shippers do with obsession and devotion regardless of what the canon says. They ship because they see that this couple is good together and it does make them feel squishy inside. Similar to a shipper. But they weren't necessarily going to see that until the canon actually played it out. To me that is responding to a romance plot as the author intended.

And maybe that is something different than shipping. I know for myself, I can read and watch romance and feel pulled in by the love I see but I don't "ship" them in the way I have shipped my OTPs with the level of obsession and devotion and need to construct my own head canons and fanon.

And I think that is a big issue when people from different backgrounds try to talk about shipping and the ship war in ACOTAR if they aren't coming from a similar experience. As I discuss a lot on this blog, there is history and culture behind shipping. And shippers have developed a common language to discuss shipping in a way that respects others shipping habits while also maintaining your devotion to your own ship.

It seems like those who are in this fandom because they enjoy canonical depictions of romance only are often confused by people who are taking characters into their own fanons and playing around with them or are devoted to them regardless of what the canon validates or not.

If you are used to shipping generally it seems very weird for people to say things like "I ship this because they're end game" or "I'll stop shipping if they don't end up together". Because shippers tend to not ship because of end game. They would LIKE end game because having canon validation is great. But it is not necessary (I also am tempted to make a whole post defining the differences between canon vs. fanon vs. end game ships because I frequently see the ACOTAR fandom using these terms incorrectly).

I think sometimes we are talking across each other and not to each other because we don't share a common cultural understanding of fandom or approach to shipping.

*obviously people can be both. Maybe the first couple you shipped is because you got into a romance series. But the point is that shipping at its heart comes from a feeling. How thinking about these characters together makes you feel squishy inside. And that can exist with or without canon. Shipping canon couples does come with many rewards, and canon can validate and be positive feedback on your shipping feelings, but you don't ship because they're end game. You would ship them regardless because you saw something special in their dynamic and whether the canon gets it or not isn't going to stop you. I like reading romance but I find romance in any genre because my shipping brain never stops.

[elizakai]

you guys i can’t take this anymore i need to release steam from this pot of killer and dust thoughts that’s on the stove

listen. if you don’t know by now. one of my favorite things to do is bridge narratives between fanon ideas, and canon truths hehe

Killer and Dust. The accepted dynamic is basically killer being a pestering little shit and dust being over it.

THATS GREAT ON ITS OWN it’s funny etc

but think about their ACTUAL characters for a moment. they are two sides of the same coin.

⬇️

i don’t want to hear any of that old fandom “they are literally the same” shhhhh. nuh uh dear friend, they commuted the same (general) action💥

their motives and situations are very different however! which is important when it comes to understanding a character

They both played into an opposite role in their world if you ask me.

Killer partners with chara, filling the role of the player. he’s a lot like flowey actually.

(in killers world, while he is still a pawn of this sick game, he gets manipulated after all, he has taken on the ROLE of the player. everyone else are the pawns.)

dust is against the anomaly of dusttale, which is that worlds player.

dust is a pawn. a pawn that is defying the player of the game

(in the same way that killer is still pawned, dust still uses his fellow “pawns” as a means to “win” the game, meaning he’s also playing)

(but again, i’m speaking role wise)

Killer and Dust’s dynamic doesn’t have to just be haha funny, it has some actual merit and potential to their characters.

Killer is constantly looking for new forms of entertainment. something new. he’ll get bored, and if he’s bored he’ll have to look at himself. killer is very much a character representing disassociation avoidance and to an extent, escapism (huh. like someone playing a video game?)

Of COURSE he’s gonna poke at people. it’s INTERESTING. it gets a REACTION. he gets to have that small power trip of being in control, after feeling like he lost control this is something that’s probably addictive to killer.

meanwhile dust…well. killer acts like his own anomaly in a way. he prods at him, toys with him, he’s leering and he takes pleasure in any reaction dust gives. dust probably would resent this feeling without really knowing why. he feels like some toy, and he’d probably be inclined to even interpret a genuine interaction this way.

this honestly makes dusts inclination to shut off or dull down any emotion make more sense. be as unremarkable as possible, and you’ll be left alone, right?

isn’t that…kind of what sans does? he’ll repeat same lines of dialogue and such when he reallyyy doesn’t have to. he’s being uninteresting. (and no he doesn’t need to remember everything magically for that to be possible. in game he will poke fun at past conversations and dialogue so he’s clearly aware enough)

Killer wants a response, so dust doesn’t give one.

killer wants control and feels like this is a challenge, dust feels cornered and defensive

if they had existed in the same world, it would have been killer vs dust in the end either way.

it’s a big old game of cat and mouse until someone snaps. they need to be given the opportunity to understand their similarities

even in an interpretation where they are in a healthier relationship, in whatever capacity, i think these mindsets would be conflict they may have….

to killer , on one hand he may be OFFENDED by his lack of response. he may be EXCITED, it’s a CHALLENGE. he might take dusts resignation as a sign of submission, which would give killer a HIGE power trip.

he might. genuinely just be trying to have fun?

it could be ENTIRELY lighthearted, and it’s still…rather toxic, considering where that mindset branched from

and we know dust won’t be inclined to say anything. he probably doesn’t understand his own feelings to be frank💀 he just feels gross and intimidated and cornered so he shuts off and sees killer as oppressive , and grows resentful regardless of intent, as these feelings only feed into his crippling self hatred anyways

….thats all for tonight-

[year2000electronics]

about yer mario hottakes im rollin in with thoughts on the mario-luigi dynamic.

i've heard so many people go back and forth between them having this 100% perfect brotherly love VS. mario is evil and hates poor baby luigi but i think that maybe it's just they're both complex characters and mario deeply insecure

like that tennis scene where he grinds luigi's foot after luigi wins instead of him. when your whole livelihood revolves around being the kingdom's favorite boy it makes sense you might lash out at being upstaged even if that's fucked up as hell to do to anybody. and while luigi's allowed and expected to outwardly express his fears (at least from diary entries i've seen in the paper mario series and luigi's general "coward" persona), who the hell is listening to mario? he's probably seen how shit people treat luigi for being vulnerable anyway (we play as mario usually witnessing all this and like. bros are real yikes to luigi), so i'd imagine the bottled up bitterness at the world is hard to contain. resentment towards luigi for being emotionally open, resentment towards the denizens of the kingdom for treating his brother like crap when mario probably wouldn't be too different if it wasn't his job to be

i'd imagine the moments he cant contain his cool like that are deep regrets. sure, luigi would forgive him, but can he forgive himself? can mario contain himself long enough to not wig out, especially with everyone watching him 24/7?

idk if this is super off base, i don't go to this school. but imo put mario in therapy, you can't be strong for everyone all the time. you're just some guy

YEAHYEAH i think even if the middle section is YMMV i do agree with the general idea that "the bros' relationship is more complex than 'they love each other' or 'they hate each other'" . like ok. being the most BANAL of canon-compliant here to reel back my own insanity for a second. it is canon that mario gets a bit competitive with luigi/his friends! we see multiple art pieces/cutscenes depicting this

because they are siblings. and im gonna be so real here i latch onto any sort of flaw mario is ALLOWED to have due to his status as Mascot so you can pry "mario gets a bit too competitive" from my cold dead hands

he's also shown to be a bit impatient if he percieves something is taking too much time

(from super mario sunshine)

(from bowser's fury)

(from luigi's mansion 1)

so i definitely see his stubbornness and impulsivity clashing with luigi's careful methodical approach.

ALL THAT TO SAY. i think even if you're just playing by the rules, i think you don't have to JUST go for one extreme or the other. i agree. the rest is purely speculative fanon applying some depth to a character who functionally does not necessarily "need" it.

(but my personal playground space interp of mario and luigi absolutely has this sort of clashing dualism where both bros are really stressed out with the hand that life has given them and they're always thinking "my brother doesn't know how good he has it" but they love each other despite that, and that love makes them not want to talk about how they really feel, and that makes it WORSE, etc etc etc)

[perseidlion]

On Fanon vs Canon

Look, full disclosure: I hate the name Thomas for The Cat King. I think it's a far too human a name for him, and it takes away from his otherworldliness.

Fandom seems to have attached to the pre-release casting announcement where he was briefly called that and well, fandom's gonna fandom. This would just be a me problem except for the fact that people are acting like the name is confirmed in canon.

I've seen posts from a number of people who think it IS canon due to its ubiquity of use in fandom spaces. They just assume they missed something in the credits of the show, or a version of him existed in the comics where he's called Thomas (there isn't, he's original to the show.)

Now look, this might not seem like a big deal, but I think it IS a problem. I know I might seem biased as a Thomas-name hater, but honestly I'd hate the name just as much if it WERE confirmed canon. I don't hate it because it's non-canonical. I hate it because I don't think it's a good name for him.

The problem comes from when fanon and canon bleed together where it's hard to tell the difference. Where fandom has collectively decided they like certain ideas or tropes and that it fits well with the show. This kind of thing is completely harmless as long as everyone keeps in mind that we're just playing around with fanworks. But when there's slippage...

I've seen it happen in a different fandom where people got deep into their own personal interpretations of characters and dynamics. A lot of people agreed with that vibe and started building off each other. It got pretty far from the source material, but these people felt like they had the right of it. It all made such logical sense to them and they'd spent so much time exploring an avenue in fanworks that it felt inevitable that their interpretation WOULD be canon.

And then a new season came out and not only did it NOT match their fanon, it directly contradicted their interpretation and in some cases proved it completely false.

People got VERY angry and started attacking the show for being "badly written" and accused the showrunner and writers of "betraying" them. When nothing in their fanon was promised or confirmed by canon in the first place, and some of the things they felt were inevitable were SO off what we'd seen on the show that it would have made no sense if their thing had happened.

Then these people turned on their fellow fans who pointed out the things they wanted were never inevitable, and in some cases would have made no sense. And then fandom got toxic.

I don't want to see this happen to the DBD fandom. The way to avoid that is to guard against the slippage between fanon and canon.

There is ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong with playing around in the sandbox of the show's world. That's the point of fanworks, and the fun of it. But we need to let go of this desire to be "right" about canon and that our interpretations are only valid if they are confirmed on screen. And we need to pay attention to the difference between what we see on screen and what makes sense/what we'd like to have happen.

Thomas lovers, you loving that name will not be diminished if he's never actually given that name. And my hate of the name will remain even if it's proven canonical. It's fine! It's not a big deal. Canon and off-canon are both extremely valid types of fandom expression.

Just...keep in mind that canon is canon and fanon is fanon. Sometimes fanon is proved right, but it is not inevitable. And the creators of a show don't owe it to us to do something just because fandom has decided they want X thing.

It starts with a name but can lead to other things if we're not careful.

[comshipbracket]

Antis DNI - Block the tag "comship" if this causes discomfort.

Remember, you are voting for the ship you prefer, not the ship you find more problematic

Propaganda for both ships under the cut.

Disclaimer: All ships (other than the now-eliminated NozoCoco) on this bracket are FOLLOWER-SUBMITTED ships, the Mods do not always hold necessary knowledge to be aware of any errors or fanonizing what should be canon material that may arise.

Brujay Propaganda (Pseudo-Incest, Age Gap, Toxic Dynamic)

"This ship has everything a comshipper could want. Adopted father/son pseudo-incest. Age gap. They quite often hate each others guts. Bruce hates Jason because he uses guns and kills people. Jay hates Bruce for letting the Joker kill him and not avenging him. Jay tried to kill Bruce on more than one occasion. Bruce beat the hell out of Jay on even more occasions and did even try to kill him once. Jay has Masssssive daddy issues. Bruce has a delicious guilt complex about Jay's death. There's so much you can do with this ship. Maybe Bruce picked Jason to adopt because Jay was (canonically) a teenage hooker. Maybe Bruce saw teenage Jay running around in those booty shorts of his Robin suit and just couldn't not go after him.

ZADR Propaganda (Toxic Dynamic, Species Difference - Dib is human while Zim is an Irken alien, Age Gap, AdultxMinor - Sort Of)

"These two self-serious goofuses are obsessed with each other. Each validates the other's delusions just by existing. They're nemeses who resent others getting between them. Each may be the only one who really understands the other."

[sinful-lanterns]

Is there beef between Adela and Cabernet? I've seen some things where they both hate each other and im wondering if its canon beef or fannon beef. I would love to know the reason behind the hatred either way, just curious.

I don’t recall Cabernet and Adela ever beefing in canon, but I do believe people like to pair them up with each other in fanon because Cabernet’s event launched right after Adela’s event (and also they are red and blue themed sinners. Red vs blue just fits as rivals imo)

I have both Cabernet and Adela and have played both of their events. I don’t recall any interactions they have with each other in the supervision events, but I think they are an interesting rivalry pairing 👀

Greenest of green flags vs reddest of red flags. Perhaps that’s the dynamic of Adela vs Cabernet methinks 🤔

[sexyleon]

I felt that post of yours about the Dracula fandom and the way it talks about adaptations tbh, like, I'm someone who was very involved in DD last year and I've written critique myself about Dracula adaptations bc I love comparative analysis and really thinking about the choices adaptations make, for good or for ill, but from my personal experience, a lot of fandom commentary on adaptations isn't really thoughtful analysis, and don't get me wrong, I'm a hater sometimes too and enjoying venting, but I noticed that this year, there were so many posts that started out as thoughtful commentary on the book, then launched into bitching about the evils of adaptations out of nowhere, and people can write what they want, but it got tiring after awhile to be in a fandom with so much angry energy, not to mention the divergence in canon vs fanon that was much starker this year that made me feel like I had read a different book.

Also, every time I see people point at re: Dracula to be like, see, it's so easy to do a perfect 1:1 adaptation of the novel, why can't other adaptations do it?, it's like, it's an audiobook, a movie can't be that long, even a television mini-series would have to make cuts. And I might dislike a lot of choices adaptations make, but creatives absolutely have the right to take a public domain work and put their own spin on things beyond book accuracy as the number one goal - and like, do we truly want a 100% accurate adaptation when the novel is still ultimately a xenophobic reverse invasion story? Like, I would hope modern directors would seriously grapple with those aspects of the original story instead of reproducing Victorian bigotry unquestioned.

Hi, thank you for your response! I'm glad that my post resonated with a few people!

I definitely also felt a shift in energy with this season of Dracula Daily, and I'm pretty sure it is a direct result of the phenomena that is Re: Dracula. Don't get me wrong, I am a HUGE supporter of RE: Dracula, and I found it to be absolutely delightful specifically because it was a 1:1 adaptation of the book, but I also think that it has skewed the way people engage with all the other adaptations of Dracula. You are so right when you say that Re: Dracula's media as audiobook is what allowed it to be so authentic. Even if it was a long-form series, there would have to be creative liberties taken to account for visualising certain aspects of the text. I am 100% sure someone would be able to do it, but it would undoubtedly be a labour of love and expense.

I think the biggest thing that got lost in translation in my post is that I was speaking specifically on the rhetoric of "bad adaptation = bad media." I don't even like to use the term "bad adaptation" because it feels inaccurate and gives the connotation of being holistically terrible; "failed adaptation" or "inauthentic adaptation" seems more apt when discussing how close an adaptation relates to the source material. I think it is unfair for any adaptation to be written off solely on the fact that it does not strictly adhere to the original text. This can be in way of narrative, characterization, theme, etc. I don't think it's fair to say "x adaptation is bad because it ignores x from the text" because that fundamentally dismisses all the other attributes that contribute to whether or not a piece of media is subjectively good (because honestly that's all it is-- subjectivity). Media, especially film and stage, has so many dynamic and moving parts. There are so many attributes that contribute to the success of any one given thing, especially adaptations (which can claim the title with even the loosest references to the source material). I feel like the black and white thinking when it comes to this doesn't really allow for a dialogue to exist between people who enjoy Dracula adaptations for what they are and, forgive me for saying this, book purists.

Understandably, there is criticism against some adaptations that have claimed to follow the source text closely, but very distinctly did not (Ahum, Cappola). However, I think it does everyone a disservice to deny the impact of a lot of these (mostly) films. Someone in the reblogs of my original post did a good breakdown of the origins of the Dracula genre itself, and I think it goes to show that the story of Dracula has a life of its own outside of the pages of Bram Stoker's book.

The most annoying thing about the responses to my initial post was the refusal to believe that anyone was making these comparisons. I really would not have gone out on a limb to rant about this if I hadn't been consistently seeing vent posts in the main tag with mostly negative responses to a lot of different adaptations of Dracula based on the authenticity of them to the text. I admit I was frustrated when I wrote it, but it really was meant to just address the black and white thinking re: failed adaptations making bad media. This is not to say that criticism of adaptations isn't valid, but I think there should be more nuance to this conversation and that's what I wasn't seeing. It's not fun to dive into the broad Dracula tag and find post after post shitting on your favourite media because it isn't like the book.

Sorry this was a bit long! I am just really passionate about Dracula okay!! And I really really really like all the shitty little shows and movies and plays and comics and all other media that comes out of his name (because YES, a lot of adaptations really make vampire synonymous with Dracula and ROLL WITH IT). Vampires are really neat and the Dracula genre of film has been a huge influence on horror media. I think there is a lot to be said when analysing adaptations, but none of it can come from blanket statements against them.

@spider-xan

[my-fool]

i'm crazy about cult logic and the familiar risk. how do you come up with your ideas? (earnest question not rhetorical) do you come up with one core concept first and then build and build on the web of themes, or does it all unfold naturally from any random point? or do you make it up as you go and then tweak after?

how do you reconcile in your head so many different versions of the same character, like ulder and astarion and even wyll to some extent who are so different in both of those fics?

Interesting questions thank you for the opportunity to speak....

Ideas & plot structure

Ideas and plots are one of those things that happen organically for me so it's hard to define where they come from BUT i don't want to leave you with that bland answer so I will speak vaguely upon this topic for a moment

The best advice about having unique ideas comes from neil gaiman's masterclass series where he says that the best ideas are the collision of two distinct concepts (its been 2 years since i watched it so paraphrasing). For me this is usually 1 core idea that I try to interpret through characters that have an existing dynamic. For Cult Logic, I wanted it to feel like a regency novel (hence the marriage troubles and the duel) and the only person he could realistically duel would be Ulder and I couldn't find a reason for them to duel over Astarion so it had to be an oc (emmaline). Everything was plotted out in both directions from that endpoint. As much as i like cult logic I felt like the plot left something to be desired and I wasn't able to explore everything I wanted to with the plot's random time constraint so i wrote the familiar risk almost immediately afterward 😆

The best advice about engaging plots I've received was from pixar writers which was "find out what a character finds most important or relies on and take that away". You'll notice this happens almost constantly in the familiar risk. What Astarion values most is the safety Wyll provides and Astarion loses him twice, once at the midpoint and then again at the end. What Wyll values most is his ability to hide/mask, and that is gradually eroded throughout the entire plot. Not just the tensest moments, but also the most emotional plot beats and the closest moments to a character's heart revolve around those dynamics.

Character writing

For me characters serve the plot, not the other way around, even in fanfiction. Everything serves the plot and even though I've softened with time to value emotional beats and quieter moments, I will always operate to some degree with plotplotplot on the mind.

Therefore their differences in cult logic vs familiar risk suit the story that I wanted to tell and when I started to write them I fell into a familiar risk "feeling". Astarion's endpoint in TFR is kind of a little further along from where he is in CL but for me they exist in that same timeline where he starts off as horrible starved spawn gremlin ~> actual loving person who can put others first. So for me he has unique parts to both fics but he's the same guy in my head.

Wyll is different in both fics to an extent. I think cult logic wyll was very rattled by his father being tortured which is why he falls into the subservience. I was still learning to write Wyll so I wasnt 100% sure on him yet. TFR wyll is tough as nails he's like a noir detective 🕵️‍♂️ frankly he is not super canon compliant anymore (i would argue he is he just takes a different selection of canon traits than those usually favoured in fanon).

Ulder is starkly different between two fics. When i was writing cult logic someone left a comment like:

"I may be wrong but I think Ulder is drowing in so much guilt and Wyll not getting angry at him and always forgiving him does not help so he escalates in hope to get Wyll finally get angry and punish him."

And i was like FUCKKKK.

🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯

And after that I posted the last few chapters of cult logic but it was worming away in my brain like FAWK.

I genuinely felt so gutted for this poor guy. Poor ulder. So i wanted to write something where he could be the good guy.

Structurally also ulder needed to be a good guy a) because wyll goes through so much in TFR and b) so that functionally Astarion has someone to lean on post-canon. If, in TFR, Wyll returned home after the climax to an ulder that was stiff and unforgiving... yeesh !

Hope that all makes sense ! Thank you for the ask and the opportunity to talk :)

[searchingforatrail]

complex megop opinions below!

Not necessarily positive or negative, just a very objective view of it and how fandom sees it vs. other ships with a similar dynamic. 

This isn’t ship hate, because it’s my OTP. It’s just a realistic look at MegOp spurred on by the fact that I tend to see people overlook the obvious issues for moral points. Meaning, I’ve run upon some sort of hate towards megastar shippers from  some megop shippers, usually with people accusing the former of being unhealthy and abusive, and i’m like, the latter isn’t? 

And not just the ship, but people too. 

I credit most of the great development and realistic approach towards a positive MegOp portrayal to fans, given that in most media we have of them, their relationship starts out great and disintegrates into one of the most tragic relationships of all time. Not only because they fall out, but because they hurt each other, drastically. Megatron, arguably more. Not only does he hurt Optimus, he targets him by harming those close to him. Whether it’s children or his closest friends, he personally hurts those around Optimus.  

In Prime, it’s arguably worse. Because it’s not just physical, but it’s psychological too. Especially during the Orion Pax saga. 

And the same could be said about Optimus to Megatron as well. Initially. Just in a different light. Optimus, a privilege mech, using his position and power to speak over Megatron, to dismiss his want to use violence and overthrow a government who abused him, etc., is a great example of an abuse of power. 

And I always stand by the fact that Megatron was 100% within his rights to want to use violence to hurt those who hurt him. 

In IDW both have an entire conversation about how badly they’ve hurt each other, Megatron flat out admits to wanting to hurt Optimus by hurting people around him. He knows what emotionally fucks with his closest friend, and proceeds to do it on a galactic level. Repeatedly. 

But people aren’t supposed to interact with megop shippers because they ship megastar? On the basis of abuse and/or an unhealthy relationship? 

What makes them different? A lot, i’m sure. There’s an arguably closer work relationship with Megatron and Starscream, the abuse is physical and psychological. There’s a larger power imbalance, and it’s over the span of a longer time. Starscream has less of a chance to fight back as opposed to Optimus, and the relationship between Megatron and Starscream is not always as equal as Megatron and Optimus’s. 

So it’s much easier to say “This is an unhealthy relationship”. 

But that’s canon. Shippers and artist work very diligently to change it, fix it, and write happy endings to it that end pretty well. They’ve worked to create complex endings to an abusive ship, very similar to how canon and fanon writers have done the exact same thing to Megatron and Optimus. 

But the bottom line is that both ships are very unhealthy. At least a a point. They don’t start that way, and they might not end that way, but a significant chunk of time, they are very, very unhealthy. And the even bottomer line is that fans work very hard to give it a healthier ending--both ships. 

And that said, I don’t understand the vitriol that comes from MegOp shippers to Megastar shippers, especially when both ships have similar dynamics. 

I guess the argument is that “well, one ship is more abusive/unhealthy than the other”, but you get in a weird space when you start to say one version of abuse is more valid than the other. 

And don’t get me wrong, there are stark differences between both ships. I do think Starscream is in a place where he experiences abuse more, but that doesn’t make Megop unhealthy or a morally superior ship. It doesn’t it any less hypocritical to add  “megastars dni/megastars get hit by trucks/i hate megastar shippers” on your profile on the basis of abuse or unhealthy relationships if you ship MegOP. 

I think it’s just dismissive of what both megatron and optimus go through during their time together, because their unhealthiness is acceptable. And that leaves a very sour taste in my mouth. 

So yeah, those are just my thoughts. I welcome another perspective, just be kind about it. 

And I love MegOp. Megatron and Optimus are my favorite characters. but I also know the ship is the most complex ship, imo, to date in transformers. and it’s not without it’s fair share of pain and agony. But why is their dynamic okay. why does it give is the right to be crappy towards other shippers who ship a similar dynamic to ours? 

[utilitycaster]

the imogen and ashton of c3e78 is soooo juicy like everything you said about imogen looking into ashton’s thoughts is so real but also in the group she is the only one who can do that. she’s the only one who can see directly what they feel and think and the fact that it mollifies her rage but almost seems to heighten her frustration? ashton and imogen have my fav dynamic in c3 bc of their understanding of pain and how they reflect each other’s selfishness (if that makes sense) and im so excited to see how (if?) this moment becomes anything More

Hey anon, I'm glad you liked their conversation and presumably my analysis, but I have to admit there's a lot in here either I don't follow, or which I can't say I agree with:

FCG can also look into Ashton's mind and chooses not to (slash, might not have the spell slots left for it due to the healing), instead talking through it - and in doing so they jump to some incorrect conclusions, but also I think have a very important conversation and eventually do come to a deeper understanding, and I still think it would be good for Imogen to talk instead of jump to Detect Thoughts.

With that said, I think she is justified given how extreme the situation was, and it's not terribly surprising that looking into Ashton's mind affects Imogen this way! As others have discussed, Imogen tends to judge people based on thoughts rather than actions (eg: reading people's thoughts alone and judging their overall morality from that moment rather than how they behave). I think part of what made this incident different is because she actually processed the combination of intent and action, rather than only intent. I think the fact that it wasn't pure self-aggrandizement and that their thought patterns of trying to connect with absent parents did both mollify her but also frustrate her, because she felt the same thing and she brought it to the party, who told her in no uncertain terms that the Vanguard sucked. She can intimately understand how they feel and also be furious at what they did as a result.

It was a great conversation between them, and I really enjoy whenever Imogen and Ashton interact, and longer RP moments between members of Bells Hells can sometimes be hard to find, but I have to be honest: I've found the fandom's perception of Imogen and Ashton's friendship and the basis of their shared experiences of pain to be vastly overblown. Notably, I found it was often really overstated before episode 70, when they had their great conversation after their time at All-Minds-Burn, because that was their first real talk that wasn't a group chat or Imogen (consensually) probing his memories, so while it's less baseless now, until a few months ago a lot of people acted like they had talked when they really hadn't. (This is true for several Bells Hells friendships tbh).

I also think that the physical drawbacks of Imogen's abilities are similarly vastly overblown; "Migraine Buddies" or what have you is almost pure fanon. Imogen has had like three canon headaches, and one of them was pretty directly tied to the events of the solstice. People just really latched onto her initial characterization and stopped paying attention. That doesn't mean it's not a consideration for her, or at least that it was before she got the circlet! But because she so rarely used the ability that triggered them I understand her best as someone who used to have a chronic condition who had it well-controlled, though with some effort, prior to the campaign, and now has since had a radical new treatment that effectively removes the need for effort. It's still obviously a factor for her; but Imogen's abilities always felt rather more like severe sensory processing issues, or a migraine disorder but one where she could relatively easily avoid triggers vs. Ashton's chronic pain.

I think some of why this fanon arose is because people wanted to project onto Imogen based on those one or two early mentions of headaches, before Ashton's disability was confirmed, and it never really got addressed and so they assumed similarities and kinship between Imogen and Ashton on a basis that was heavily projected. I agree that they have a lot in common - a cynical worldview and low expectations of others; a combination of lack of self-regard that wraps around into self-absorption (the ugly truth of self-loathing is that it is also self-centered and can still hurt others even while also hurting one's self); the above parallels between their parents. I agree that I'd love to see them interact more (thought I'm not sure if by "More" you mean an actual friendship or what) - I think the post-solstice onset arc has really allowed Laura to do what she does best for Imogen now that she's not constantly in the spotlight, and the remaining gap is that her interpersonal relationships with many party members are somewhat lacking - but it's hard to call it my favorite dynamic when it's only just being developed. And for what it's worth, going back to the first point, I think a lot of similar parallels can be found between Ashton and FCG, who do have a more developed dynamic.

[vraisetzen]

https://www.tumblr.com/vraisetzen/767046956775342080/historians-will-say-that-they-were-best?source=share

hi v,

i'm afraid i'm not a 'shipper,' but i'd be curious to know:

what are your top ten favourite anime ships?

Hi! Thank you for your question!

To be honest, I've left my shipping days far behind me especially since I got into writing Reader Inserts — I can't even remember the last time I rooted enthusiastically for a ship (besides Garashir and Janeway/Chakotay from Star Trek DS9 and Voyager).

(Also, I just wanna quickly clarify that I don't actually ship Mizuki and Gegero, even if I do see/understand why they're very popular when I saw the film. I was just awestruck by the official art, haha)

And I know there's currently a ton of debate surrounding shipping, to which I'd like say that I seldom have any icks or squicks when it comes to pairings. If I dislike a ship, it's probably because of a bad experience I had with their fans. However, I would add that my favourite ships are pretty vanilla and tame, and more often than not the result of my asking, "What if these two randoms were placed in a room with one bed together?" I love a niche pairing with zero fics written for them on AO3, lol.

So yeah, I'm gonna spotlight some of my niche pairings that I enjoy quite a fair bit! All of them are het and slash ships, I'm afraid, out of sheer coincidence that most of my favourite characters are male. I do love femslash/yuri ships as well, but they're generally quite popular, so I wouldn't be contributing anything new. They're not ranked in order of preference because I love them all!

Hijikata/Otae, Gin Tama: I love Otae so, so much, and I think she gets a ton of unwarranted hate from a vocal minority of the fandom on Twitter and Reddit. The GinTae vs GinTsu debate is still very real in 2024, but I think my girl deserves a man who earns a stable income and doesn't denigrate her appearance.

Koenma/Botan, Yu Yu Hakusho: The first of many niche pairings to come. Botan is such a lovely girl who is friendly with every one, but I get a kick out of imagining the two of them getting into all sorts of trouble and shenanigans whilst nagivating the bureaucratic hell that is, well, Hell, and falling in love in the process. And have you see the official art of them together? It's so cute!

Ogata/Sai, Hikaru no Go: I was so disappointed when I didn't find any content of them both! I think Ogata would have gone insane had he been the one to stumble upon Sai's Go board, before falling in love with him, and then into despair as he realised he cannot touch the one person he loved and idolised the most.

Muzan/Tamayo, Kimetsu no Yaiba: As a KnY fic writer, I feel obliged to include at least one ship from this fandom. I love all canon and fanon pairings in this work (a rare thing for me, personally), but I especially love the divorced couple dynamic between them both. The most recent season finale cemented that belief for me, and I do spend a lot of time brainrotting over their past before Muzan encountered Yoriichi.

Kusakabe/Utahime, Jujutsu Kaisen: I stumbled upon this fanart a long time ago, and thought: "Spectacular; give me 14 of them right now." He's an experienced First-Grade sorcerer who's honestly not the best teacher, she's a Second-Grade sorcerer who loves her students — they bond over their mutual irritation for Gojo and absolutely hooked up during the exchange event.

Shunsui/Ukitake, Bleach: What's there not to love about Old Men Yaoi? I've loved these two ever since I saw them, individually and a pairing, and I don't I will ever forgive Kubo for separating them in TYBW (albeit in a good way). The Hell arc was just the icing on the cake — a reverse star-crossed lovers, if you will.

Ryoga/Ranma, Ranma 1/2: I love a small-stakes rivalry, and there's something very cute about a guy who absolutely does not care about the gender of his opponent and will stop at nothing to fight them.

Shishiba/Osaragi, Sakamoto Days: Let it be known that I've clocked this couple ever since they first appeared in the manga, and I staunchly believe that they're endgame. Chapter 161 was everything — nothing can convince me otherwise that they're just mentor and mentee. Have you ever seen a mentee stroke her mentor's cheek as he laid bleeding on the ground, saying: "I'll be right back. Don't die"? Yeah, I thought so.

Mitsui/Yohei, Slam Dunk: I wish I could give a better explanation for why I love them so much, but really — the moment I saw Yohei beating the crap out of Mitsui with relative ease and zero effort despite being the smaller guy, I just felt the yaoi monster stirring in its sleep and shaking my bones. A former student athlete-turned-delinquent crossing paths with an actual delinquent makes for such fantastic tension, really.

Jotaro/Kira, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure: I actually thought very long and hard about my favourite JJBA ship, because, like KnY, I love all of the characters and have no issue with either canon or fanon pairings. But then, I saw this fanart of JoKira/KiraJo, and it scratched such a specific itch inside my head that I have not been the same ever since.

Here it is! I had an fun time thinking about my favourite ships and choosing those that were truly obscure; some of them — HijiTae and ShunUki — are fairly popular, but I think my preference for them trumped any other rarepair I could have thought of for that fanbase.

xoxo, V ♥️

[mhaynoot]

[ch 2]

just finished ch2 and got sick so excuse the ramblings of an only partly functioning brain HAHAHA but anyways some thoughts so far:

i think while he was dead, wei wuxian was semi-conscious or at least aware of time passing? he has a few direct thoughts like "I've actually been dead for many years" (p.14) and indirect "Wei Wuxian had already lost count of the number of years it'd been since he last heard a live person speak ..." (p.13). It can help explain his rather vaguely cavalier attitude towards his traumatic death and his, well, peculiar attitude towards his reverse non-con body possession which is honestly a sentence I really never thought I'd write. I also believe wwx was active in choosing not to "haunt the living, for one, and he'd never saught vengence, for two" (p.17) which makes me think about where he was? I guess he could be in the underworld or something, waiting for his soup of oblivion and reincarnation cycle but there's really no mention of the afterlife and I assume there won't be either but I'm really really curious and could be fun to explore. Also this whole chapter has such a flippant tone and a very easygoing, almost jokey manner. Like calling wwx the most "decent and honest" (p.17) ghost there could ever be -- there's really lots of exaggeration and hyperbole and it's just so very wwx.

but also it's not completely lighthearted of course, you can tell when the narration becomes serious like when wei wuxian becomes incensed about mo xuanyu's life. he insults mo xuanyu at first, lots of "madman" and "lunatic" (p.20), but he continues reading mo xuanyu's horrible eye-straining letters, listens to this poor dead boy's words, and eventually his rhetorical questions become mocking towards the mo family, his narration becomes gentle towards mo xuanyu, ultimately questioning "what kind of hellish life was he fucking living" (p.21). it is forgiveness despite the reverse non-con body possession, and it starts the novels characterisation of wwx really well, a subtle moral declaration of standing with the weak and the helpless, of revealing his great and deep empathy. like i believe wwx genuinely felt bad this tortured boy destroyed his soul to fulfil his last wish only to get an evil ghost that wasn't even evil. like it just made me so sad reading this part, you can feel the tragedy of a life cut short because of cruelty. really, wwx so called trecherous, wwx the mad. wwx, forever righteous and just.

i adore foreshadowing and comparisons that can be made between mo xuanyu and wei wuxian, and especially how mo xuanyu's backstory sets up like a miniature version of wwx backstory vs the cultivation gentry, already establishing an anti-classism/aristocracy theme. "It appeared that, despite how the cultivation world had demanded Wei Wuxian's demise, they nevercheless had no qualms about making use use of of his his inventions." (p.33) truly what righteousness, what orthodoxy and what single broad path? only hyprocrisy and the insular gentry, a world soaked in the blood of the weak, gorged on by the powerful.

also wwx is so smart? i love how he questions and deduces his way into knowing how to fulfil mo xuanyu's unknown wishes. like him publically putting out a spectacle and humiliating the mo family was very funny but it makes it rewarding when it's also revealed as an information gathering situation of the mo family, the village, the servants, as well as finding out who the cultivators invited are, AND if this level of revenge was enough to fulfil the contract was just ingeniusly written into a very fun interaction. this plus the flag "stealing" scene really shows how wwx can really think on the spot to achieve his covert goals while masking it as fun mischief and like his understanding of social dynamics and utilisisation of prejudice/preconceptions is extremely proficient.

and he canonically meditates a lot even within the first few pages so I don't really understand where the fanon "he can't meditate" thing comes from alskkfl

also i like how wwx really didnt want to kill the mo family even if it meant like not dying but even worse dying this time cause his soul would be destroyed which allskdd huh maybe the traumatic death was an indication of smth but also wwx really isn't into killing or escalating situations at all. and then he's all like 'not like it'll be all that hard' about the killing too but still refuses to do so and compared to the whole massacre, blood, supreme evil lord stuff, it really reveals to not trust what the ears hear and only half what the eyes see (butchered edgar allen poe quote btw). and i really like how explaining the summoning also set up the spell backlash concept for later. and wwx really risking it all for the lan disciples because it was the good thing to do.

also i never really thought about it but mdzs is a really cool contrast to most transmigration/time stories I've read? mdzs is a really great reversal of the transmig/time-reversal genre tbh which should be expected of mxtx considering svsss i suppose! but like setting it 13 years into the future instead of the past, having the body snatching be intentional from the original owner, explaining the rules and that there had been previous and recorded historical accounts of this type of body trading, making the protagonist accidentally fulfilling the contract instead of actively, and many other things! it's great, it really is!

okay!! my brain is melting right now and i still have so much more to say like the lan disciples!!! and lan sizhui!! omhygod my boy!! but yeah! brain melt! so see you next time!!!

[fancyfade]

Hi I read your post about the bat boys dynamics, now how the fandom been handling it for years been pissing me off as someone in a blended family.

Now I have a step-turned adopted brother, him and I meet when he was 4 and I was 9. We’re currently estranged, but for the most part it took me….I want to say a year to see him as my brother properly. Not saying I hated him, but to form a bond.

Now the problem with the bat boys, well I want to say Damian histories with them in general. Is writers BARELY gives depth into their bonds and most of the time it seem meaningless. Vs how you and even Arabian batboy pointed out how their bonds with female characters seem more fleshed out as the writers put effort in making their bonds…for the most part…looking at you Williamson.

I am no eugenic, but there a difference between my bond with bio sister vs my bonds with adopted siblings

My issues is how the Batfamily fandom try to force a nuclear family dynamic into the Batclan…when writers clearly show that half of the time they see them as a militia vs a found family.

Oh and the writers personal bias, like in Gotham war where Tim told Damian he always saved Bruce vs the latter only fighting him….is there any goddamn archives at dc for writers to check up on characters lore?

Sorry I just want to air this out, because this bat brothers fanon been driving me up the wall. They are brothers on paper, but none of them are each other keepers if that make sense?

I think it makes sense. I'm sorry to hear about your estrangement.

And yeah a lot of time fandom wants to act as if the fact that they're all adopted (or biologically related) to Bruce on paper means that they'd have the exact same relationship people might have if they grew up together in the same house, but like... that's a drastically over-simplified thing. like i remember getting into an argument* with someone who was adamant that Damian should fanboy or look up to Tim b/c Tim is his older brother and people do that stuff IRL. But like... a) not everyone does b) Damian did not actually live in the same house as Tim, his dynamic was not the same as someone who grew up with an older brother, they clearly had many canon interactions indicating the opposite!

and also like: Obviously you shared your experience with how long it took you to form a bond, and realistically it would also take Damian time to form a bond. If his interactions are antagonistic, like they are with Tim, it would take work for them to get close, and panel time we do not see. This isn't to say they can't consider each other brothers, we see evidence at least Tim considers Damian his little brother and Damian's no longer antagonistic to him** and respects him some, but they definitely wouldn't have a super close bond like we see Damian have with Maya or Dick.

And yeah so many of the writers have personal bias its cringe to read. Except like. I have never seen Tim portrayed really negatively in Damian's comics. In general, it's to put Damian down. I analyzed it in general here (link)

And like. WRT personal experiences I'm sure there are some people who view their adopted siblings as similar to their bio siblings... but also WRT not simplifying everything -- that doesn't mean it's the same for everyone, and it definitely doesn't mean that that means every single Batfam member who is adopted by Bruce has the same relationship that people who are all raised in the same house in general at the same time, since they were babies might have. Like it'd be oversimplifying and trying to flatten out dynamics to act as if that's how it did happen.

Also if you are the same blended family anon as earlier, I do want to say I got a long anon ask from you ages ago but forgot to answer it sorry :C then I couldn't tell if too long had passed and it was weird to answer it

*act surprised, I was in an argument /j

**current canon shows more evidence for Tim being antagonistic to Damian than vice versa.