profounddefendorcrusade-blog

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I like to think that it was Clover's death, besides Chara's, that was hurting Flowey so much.

I like to think that, at the end of the day, Flowey wished that he could see Clover again, just like he wished he could see his adopted sibling.

I like to think that Flowey cared about Clover as much as his soulless self could.

...especially when you remember the very last word he had said to Clover. If someone like Flowey genuinely calls you friend, you must have done something right.

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based on this

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A Second Long Rant About The Koffin Trio

Note: I decided to write about these three again (mostly about the genocide route) because I didn't cover everything I wanted to in my previous take, and you guys seemed to like it (I'm glad you enjoyed it as well, @beethovenus!), so here we go. If you haven't already, please read my previous ts!us post, since this is an addition to that.

Let's just say that the writers really outdid themselves when it comes to the genocide route, especially in regards to Harry and Larry. Never before did a video game leave me feeling so emotionally broken. The battle between the Boogiemen and Chara proves that comedic relief characters CAN and SHOULD be put in serious situations. It gives them much-needed depth.

At the beginning, Harry and Larry didn't take Chara seriously and only managed to make it out of the encounter alive because Crossbones/Sans intervened (which just goes to show how reckless both of them are) they're like annoying but loveable little kids i swear

It's this trait of theirs that led them to their downfall later on. I guess you could say that their appearance was meant to 'lighten the mood' of the otherwise dark genocide route, but it only made things worse for them in the long run. I remember reading a comment on YouTube once, and it mentioned how the Boogiemen resemble horror movie characters who die first due to their carelessness. And aside from the fact that they were not the first monsters to get killed by Chara, I agree 100%

Neither one of them believed that a human was even in the Underground, let alone a serious threat... that is, until they tried picking on Chara ↓

...which obviously didn't end well ↓

When they realized that they really WERE in danger, both visibly began to panic; neither one of them even tried to pretend to be fearless ↓

I've got to say that I love the contradictory traits the Boogiemen share: fearless but fearful, fun-loving but seeking safety, reckless but cautious.

Imo, as much as they like to goof off, they want someplace to come back to even more. Koffin-K is the one who makes the keep a place where they feel like they belong; a place that gives them comfort. KK's presence is what reassures them that they're taken care of. He's the one who makes Koffin Keep home.

In the present moment, Harry and Larry can afford to act goofy and careless because they're convinced that, no matter what happens, Koffin will always be there to save them, provide for them, and keep them safe in general.

There's a difference between who Harry & Larry were before and after they got hired (they seemed to have become more mischevious, more open to goofing off, and even more ambitious and confident).

I find it interesting that both of them were anxious/sceptical about working for Koffin when he first met them:

The two weren't attached to Koffin-K at all at the time. They didn't become loyal right off the bat; It took them (a short) time to warm up to him. And now that they are attached, I'm pretty confident that they're never leaving his side

The thing about Harry is that he used to rely on this one low-wage job and probably thought: "If I take the risk and come to regret becoming this weird guy's lackey, or if he fires me, I might never be able to come back to my safe job again and I'll be left with nothing. I'm not even qualified for anything other than menial chores!" yeah I headcanon that both him and Larry dropped out of high school at like 16 and never went to college in the first place I'm also really curious if Harry used to be attached to his previous boss (who he never mentioned) like he is to Koffin-K now, but I doubt it since he DID accept Koffin's job offer the very next day.

And Larry didn't want to risk anything either, even though he pretty much had nothing to lose. Even if he used to have a job as a janitor (if this is the case, I imagine his thought process was the exact same as Harry's), he still lacked a home. It's depressing to think about how Larry apparently wanted to continue his poor-quality life because he didn't believe anything different or better was out there. Or, he had no idea what having a better life even felt like. Maybe he thought he'd be WORSE OFF as Koffin-K's employee and/or that he'd fire him at some point. I just made myself sad, I love these guys a lot and empathize so much I feel like both of them believe they're not good enough and it hurts

Anyway, back to the genocide route.

After they're rescued, Flowey says:

Already setting up the fact that they'll either be an easy and/or optional battle. Nice.

Then we see Harry and Larry straight up putting themselves in danger to please Koffin-K:

Like, guys, I'm sure he would have understood if you hadn't obeyed his order this time. but they CAN'T let him down; they refuse After all, a mass murderer was on the loose

And once again, we're given a choice whether or not to fight them:

And finally, if we follow them... we get to this scene.

Oh god. THIS scene. Where do I even start?

Alright, time for some retrospect.

So, the two dummies have no way to escape and are forced to fight (with their very last conversation being AN UNRESOLVED ARGUMENT), Larry is ruthlessly pushed off the cliff (is this why it's called the ruthless route? Because if so, it fits perfectly), Harry screams his name and falls to his knees, completely dejected, and doesn't even attempt to run or fight, waiting to join Larry in death.

This moment hurts. This text especially. "Quick on his feet" but not quick enough; Larry's name is no longer next to his

No matter how much they annoy each other, the care is clear as day. That's another reason why I think of them as brothers. Harry is pretty fearful, right? And yet he'd rather turn to dust than live a life without Larry.

Sometimes I wonder how the scene would have played out if Harry had been given given the choice to either flee, stay and fight, or let us finish him off.

Ok, the third option would remain unchangeable, and the second would definitely result in his death whether or not he put up a fight, but the first one...

**ANGST WARNING**

Koffin-K would find Harry in his and Larry's house, curled up on their (now only his) bunk bed, sobbing uncontrollably and blaming himself over and over again. Then he'd hold him and they'd cry together. Koffin would regret not being more transparent with his care for his henchmen, and now that he was only left with one, he'd swear to be the best boss and father he could be.

It would take a while, but eventually Harry would stop crying himself to sleep every night, he'd go back to his mischievous self, he'd pull pranks and laugh and have fun because that's what Larry would have wanted.

Koffin and Harry's relationship would strengthen over time (sooner rather than later) and they'd become a true family. But every day, for the rest of his life, Koffin-K would wish that he had told Larry how much he loved him before he died. Harry would wish that, too.

But there was no way to turn back the clock, and the only thing they could do was hope that, wherever Larry was, he'd somehow know.

...he did.

I don't even want to image what would have happend if the roles had been reversed. Let's just say that Larry would have been absolutely shattered if Harry had gotten pushed off a cliff/died first. Based on his reaction if you beat Harry up during their fight in the neutral route, I don't even think he'd ever be able to move on from the pain of losing his brother best friend (or it would be SUPER hard).

Speaking of these scenes, Harry's first reaction was to get furious, Larry's was to burst into tears. What they have in common though was that they showed care for each other sigh... image limit strikes again

Larry also picked up on the purity of Chara's soul (or lack thereof) and it triggered Chara

It reminds me of how Ceroba picked up on the number of monsters Clover had killed

Long story short, I love how both Harry and Larry have their own quirks and personality. They're not just interesting as a duo, but separately, too. It's sometimes hard to remind yourself how, just because two people are a team, that doesn't mean they don't/can't exist as individuals.

I'm really curious to see Koffin-K's reaction to these two's deaths. REALLY REALLY curious.

I think that he'd completely break down (before that he'd be in denial) upon realizing that his idiots are actually gone forever and were killed by someone Koffin thought would make a good servant. Still, for some reason, I doubt he would become so enraged that he could avenge them by killing Chara.

Regardless of his reaction, he'd definitely miss them a lot.

When everyone was gone, Harry and Larry were the first on his mind i feel like they're his biggest headache but also the two monsters he loves most, in his own unique way

Random thoughts as a bonus bc why not:

I swear, it seemed like they wanted to say "You're talking to THE COUNT'S lackeys!" and "You ain't the dad of us to tell us what to do!" Also, Harry looks scared/nervous/unsure/ af. These guys really are both cowardly and impulsive

Istg, they act like (man)children with Koffin being their strict but goofy dad mom who makes them do chores when they'd rather laze around (I know it's part of their job and everything but the way they talk about their duties gives me this vibe)

...yeah, just KK acting like an annoyed dad, nothing new to see here

Remember how, in the last post I wrote, I said that Harry and Larry are materialistic (for a good reason)? Yeah, they're so materialistic that they'd even "betray" their boss for some cash (unrelated, but I love this game's humor)

These two have a dog's loyalty, but even their house looks like a doghouse (or maybe it's just tiny compared to the keep). Speaking of the keep...

Interesting that, whoever wrote on this wiki, didn't include the other workers almost like it's just the three of them that are a family while the others are just there for the easy money

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A Long Rant About The Koffin Trio

Note: So, this is my first (really) long post about this fangame, and to be honest, I was debating whether or not to even publish it. I still decided to do it since not a lot of folks talk about ts!underswap, and I wanted to give my two cents regarding my three favorite characters.

More important note: If you think it's gonna trigger you to read about Harry/Larry and Harry/Larry/KK as a found family, better click off this post. Maybe it's my inner aroace speaking, but I personally don't see the romantic appeal at all. Good for you if you do! I'm not trying to invalidate anyone's opinion; diversity is great after all :)

For those of you who are still here, I will start off by saying this:

Harry and Larry depend on Count Koffin-K for so much. I'm tempted to say EVERYTHING.

He genuinely feels like their father figure. I mean, this sentient fedora gave them a job while they were both living lives that were... bad.

He isn't cruel when they do something stupid and instead just looks deadpan. Sure, Koffin-K's not a perfect boss; he yells at the two of them and insults them (dude really needs to work on his temper), but I found it sweet how both Harry and Larry felt safe enough to tell him the truth here, which to me counts for something (pun intended) ↓

He even pranks them sometimes ↓

Koffin may not be perfect (he's gotta keep up the "evil" persona) but at least he 1) tries to give Harry and Larry a hint that he cares for them (has them both secretly do his laundry without them telling each other) 2) actually admits that he cares for them both equally (in his own way) 3) attempts to solve their disagreement despite him not gaining anything out of it

How they met is also interesting to me.

Based on their backstory, Harry and Larry were clearly hesitant to work for Koffin, but when they actually started the job the next day, I imagine that their conversation went something like this (either during the first day or at some point early on in their career):

H: "Larry, he could be like the dad we never had and provide for us and we could have all da money that we never did, see?"

L: "Huhuhu, yeah! Don't forgets da food!"

...and that's how the parade float came to be. I think Koffin secretly appreciates they made it, even though he says how he wanted the thing "as far away as possible" right after saying this line ↓

He also makes this face later on at the festival when he sees the float again cause it reminds him that the three of them are a family despite Harry and Larry getting on his nerves half the time but I can't include the screenshot bc of the picture limit

Heck, the two even built their house outside the keep, which to me suggests that they don’t ever plan on leaving Koffin.

Harry does mention his mother, and we learn that he's into embroidery (both making me think he's a a 'mama's boy'; maybe she taught him how to embroider)...

...but even on the ts!us wiki, the only relationship dynamic the two have is with Koffin-K himself.

Weirdly enough, we only know that Harry has a mom, but not a dad

Even though he was definitely unaware of this, Koffin liked Harry and Larry FOR BEING THEMSELVES. This is really important to me.

He saw something in them that others did not, even if it was initally just "your names rhyme and you give me the 'goofy henchmen' vibe." He sees them both as useful for what he needs them for. It may not be much, but it's exactly what Koffin's looking for.

In other words:

THE WAY HARRY AND LARRY ARE IS ENOUGH FOR COUNT KOFFIN-K. I mean, why look at resumes of competent potential employees when you can hire two idiots who are just as goofy as you

Exactly why Harry and Larry are so loyal to Koffin-K is unknown, but based on my interpretation, it has to do with 1) them desperately needing a father figure/someone to rely on 2) Koffin giving Harry and Larry a home, food, money, and a job that also allows them to slack off and finally enjoy life, and 3) him making them feel needed. Maybe not appreciated, even though he subtly tried to, but definitely needed. Serving under him became their purpose.

In other words, I think they're so loyal because Koffin "chose" them, even if he did that subconsciously.

Harry got the chance to be more than just a janitor. Imo, he was hesitant to work for Koffin at first because he was afraid that he would lose the only sense of security he had. I think he lived with his mom at the time, considering his low-wage job This explains why he wants to be rich (to make up for all the things he couldn't afford).

It also explains why Larry loves food so much (he literally slept under a dumpster bag and if he was both homeless AND unemployed, it would mean that he had to either be a beggar or eat from the trash. Either way, eating good food was out of the question.

It's also possible that Larry had a janitor job just like Harry (but unlike him, nowhere to live). I say that he might have been a janitor, since Koffin mentions how they could both do better than mopping floors forever, but maybe it was just an assumption on Koffin's side.

Whatever the case, their lives sucked.

There was also this one moment I wanna talk about, where Larry called Koffin-K stupid, and Harry pretty much agreed. So I asked myself why they reacted this way.

Maybe because it was easier to convince themselves that they didn't care about their boss than deal with the fact that he (maybe) always saw them as nothing but 'lowly servants'.

Seriously, Harry said out loud what they both wanted most of all. And that something was for Koffin-K to value them. This was more important to them than money and food COMBINED, considering their entire arc was about learning that Koffin needed them both equally

Maybe they were worried about getting fired, but I honestly don't think Koffin ever wanted to do that to them, no matter how many times they messed up.

Maybe they didn't want to be honest and admit to Koffin that he's a total dumbass so they wouldn't get in trouble with him. I mean, they did want to gain his validation/appreciation/approval/love, so it makes sense that they would do anything to get and remain in his good books.

I think the third scenario is the most likely one, tbh.

Might be a nitpick, but notice how Harry and Larry are walking next to each other here, but Koffin-K's at the back, just sorta... isolated, like he's not their equal? This is why I'd rather see him as their father figure than an older brother. The way I look at it, the oldest sibling is usually in charge, yeah, but there's still a level of closeness and familiarity between the siblings, whereas Harry and Larry hardly know anything about Koffin-K, ESPECIALLY how lonely he really is. Koffin's the one who gave them a purpose, became their boss, and as a result, they began looking up to him. In contrast, the two spend 24/7 together, bicker, and are practically inseparable, like brothers

Larry also explains how Koffin-K doesn't like leaving his study, but clearly neither Harry nor Larry reflected on why that is and just assumed it's because Koffin's 'stupid.' This reaction kinda rubbed me the wrong way at first, but then I remembered both of these dudes are street rats who don't know any better.

Look, I know the Boogiemen were supposed to fit this common "goofy villain's sidekicks" trope, but both of them clearly grew up in poor conditions, have daddy issues (imo), and feel worthless/useless.

That's why they want Koffin-K's attention so badly.

They need a father figure to reassure them that they're useful, important, and loved.

All this makes them three-dimensional and relatable, just like most UT/DR/UTY characters. It feels like everyone in these games goes through some kind of deep arc, and I feel like this is supposed to be the Boogiemen's

Sure, Harry and Larry are funny at first glance, and they're great at being comic reliefs, but at their core, they are misguided guys who come from poverty/homelessness. I kinda wish the feisty four from uty had more going for them just so I could psychoanalyze them all

Even though it's probably been a few years since they joined Koffin, at least some part of Harry and Larry doesn't seem to believe that they can finally enjoy themselves, even if it means doing hooligan stuff and boring chores. That's why they're 'superficial' and goof off and will grab any opportunity to act childish and materialistic.

A typical case of age regression

What lies beyond the surface is incredibly sad to me.

Now, this is sort of like a bonus section bc I want to explain WHY exactly I see Harry & Larry as brothers, and WHY I think they see Koffin as a dad again, maybe it's bc I'm aroace and I see family relationships everywhere, but the stuff below REALLY REALLY reminds me of these types of dynamics:

They threw insults at each other and had a literal fistfight over which one of them Koffin appreciated/liked more

They cried HARD (of joy) when Koffin told them they're both equally useful and useless, so they no longer had to be at each other's throats. He also said how he recognized that they're passionate about being his lackeys, even if their teamwork needed, well, work

I think it's sweet how they built the float 'within their first days of henchmenry,' according to KK. They could have easily NOT included him, but had apparently warmed up to him pretty soon

Harry wanted to call Koffin to save them + I love how he's CERTAIN he'll do it

Both yelled for Koffin (reminds me of Axis calling out for Chujin for some reason)

Larry called Koffin Keep their home (could have easily said that they left it at the keep...reminds me of the times Starlo called The Wild East Clover's home I really need to stop with the uty parallels)

They cheered for him (and got hit in the face with books)

They get in trouble with him

They apparently copied two of his attacks these 3 are so similar except that Koffin is a more 'head in the clouds' kind of goofy while Harry & Larry are more grounded... but still goofy

And this line... "And quit arguing, you two!" sounded so parental, istg

I forgot to mention some stuff:

After Koffin tells everyone to go to the festival, Harry and Larry quickly look left and right, like they're wondering where he is and/or what to do now that he isn't there. Poor guys really are dependent on him and like to be in his presence

They talked about Koffin a LOT throughout this game. Their conversations are either about 1) Koffin and what they're gonna do to please him, 2) Them bickering, or 3) Some shenanigans they get themselves into. Larry even remembers how Koffin-K always says: "If you're slacking, put some hustle into it"

Koffin doesn't treat any other lackey the way he does Harry and Larry, and none of the other lackeys seek his admiration like the two do

Harry and Larry were both jealous af of Chara for getting all the attention (right after they got into Koffin's study Harry said "Now whaddya need us in here for, see?" and I immediately thought that he wanted to add "you have a new favorite child lacky now so why don't assign more chores TO THEM")

Like I'm not sure if they were meant to come across to us players as a family but for some reason that's how they came across to me since day 1

The actual reason why I see them in this light is not just bc I love found family (even tho I do. a lot), but bc I feel like it would give Harry & Larry more depth than a romance between any of them

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Let's see what Clover did (yeah i had to play the whole game again):

Decided to find out what happened to the five missing children and bring them home to the surface

Complimented Froggit

Comforted Flier

Distracted Penilla from drawing so she could take a break

Left the exact amount of money on the lemonade stand despite there being no attendance to take it

Gave Sweet Corn a hug

Helped Rorrim fulfill his purpose (make others not criticize how they look)

Respected Decibat's need for silence

Joined Crispy Scroll's excited yelling over anime so he wouldn't feel lonely

Complimented Micro Froggit

Played count the dust with the dust bunny monster

Didn't disturb Decibat while he was asleep

Even when helpless and wrongfully attacked, decided to befriend Dalv, thus causing him to give up on his lonely lifestyle and start making friends

Because the monsters in the Ruins finally got to go outside, all this happened: 1) Sweet Corn got to open a free hugs booth 2) Penilla got to draw things outside of the Ruins, see the big corn cob picture she made for Dalv, and realize that she and Dalv ARE friends 3) Crispy Scroll got to go to the dump and find more anime tapes 4) Flier could learn new dance moves and (maybe) buy a beach house 5) Rorrim could go on adventures

Took their time to get to know Dalv and explore his house

Didn't invade Pops' privacy and waved at him before closing the wardrobe

Danced with Frostermit and got it out of its shell (literally and metaphorically)

Put Insomnitot to sleep

Ended up buying Mo's poor quality products because they knew he was struggling financially x1

Patiently explained the dangers of an open fire to Know Cone

Believed that the remnants of the snowman were full of potential for new life

Played a game with the Shufflers and became their friend

Got the Honeydew Resort band to play that furry monster's favorite song

Found one monster's mitten

Got another monster a coffee and matches so they wouldn't freeze

Found a map for the lost tourists

Freed Slurpy from the pole

Spent time chatting with the Honeydew Resort shopkeeper and learned more about Dalv, who ended up fulfilling his dream of having an organ concert in the end credits

Got Trihecta to split up and literally and metaphorically get off each other's backs so all three could be who they wanted to be individually

Begrudgingly insulted Martlet so they could spare her

Forgave Martlet for fighting them and trusted her to keep them safe

Gave Martlet the highest scores on her questionnaire

Pat Dunebud

Ended up buying Mo's poor quality products because they knew he was struggling financially x2

Made Cactony feel love for the first time

Fixed the elevator in the mines

Helped Bowll put his guard down and discover his true self

Found the mine worker's hat, causing him to get a promotion in the end credits

Did their best to dance with El Bailador despite being bad at it

Sat next to Kanako's friend on the swing

Told Violetta she had nothing to fear

Forgave Martlet for abandoning them

Saw potential in the sapling to grow into something beautiful

Hung out with Starlo and the Feisty Five despite the gang kidnapping them

Was worried about what was bothering Ceroba while she was checking out Starlo's movies that Kanako used to watch with him

Proved to Blackjack that humans can be good

Didn't attack the FF even though they unfairly ganged up on them

Even though they were unfairly attacked by Starlo, they surrendered to him

Didn't make fun of Starlo's true face

Didn't get upset with Martlet for yet again abandoning them

Cleaned Jandroid

Helped Goosic produce music that's actually pleasant to listen to

Ended up buying Mo's poor quality products because they knew he was struggling financially x3

Calmed Guardener down to the point she stopped attacking them and Ceroba

Helped Telly-Vis work together

Calmed Ceroba down while she was yelling at the Steamworks robot

Spared Axis, knowing that he was the last thing left of Chujin, and trusted Ceroba with her plan

Overall took their time to talk to everyone they met so they could understand their situation

Changed Martlet's entire perspective on humans

Tried to understand the deeper reason as to why Ceroba was doing what she was doing, hugged her and forgave her

Decided not to hide underground and willingly sacrificed their SOUL for monsterkind even after being hurt, attacked, and killed so many times (also during the 100+ runs)

Knew the sacrifice might mean nothing but went along with their decision anyway and put faith in whoever would come after them

Waited for their friends to leave before they died, in a lot of pain

Before that reassured Ceroba they'd be okay so she'd be at least a bit comforted

Delivered true JUSTICE

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I wonder what they did....

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UTY mbti types

this took a long time

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If this isn't their relationship...

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Harry and Larry's ages

There are two ways that I can look at this:

• These two remind me a lot of Mordecai & Rigby, at least in terms of behavior. They goof off on their computer and slack off whenever they get the chance, they're dependent on Koffin-K to protect them, they seek his validation and appreciation like children and get in trouble with him

All this gives me young adult vibes (I would say teenager vibes but we do know they're grown-ups)

Harry even talks proudly about it

That got me thinking: what if this line is a funny way of saying "We're grown-ups compared to you, kid, but we actually dunno how to do this adulting thing since it's still new to us"

We don't know when they started working for Koffin or for how long they've had the job, but I headcanon that they're both not only college, but also high school dropouts, in which case it's possible that they were 18 or 19 (like Burgerpants) when Koffin hired them and are now 23 or 24

There's also this line which sounded to me like a child saying "You're not our dad you can't tell us what to do"

• If they're older adults, I can't see them as above 34. These guys are not only really immature (also treated Chara like a younger sibling imo) but depend on Koffin to the point that their entire arc revolves around him. And no, I don't think it only has to do with loyalty

Anyway, I'd say their age range is anywhere between 23-34

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Koffin says this:

Now, a mid-life crisis can happen anywhere between 35-60 apparently, but based on him associating it with building a golf course at the keep, this to me implies that he's older, anywhere between 40-60

My personal headcanon is mid to late 40s to early 50s bc the guy reminds me of Gru and Dr. Doofenschmirz, but that's just me

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Since my adhd is acting up again and I can't analyze the remaining characters in much detail, imma throw in every character's mbti & enneagram (+ a little explanation for the stuff I didn't already talk about)

Clover: INFP 1w9 (their idealism and wanting to do what's good (to them) is TOO STRONG; strong enough for the kid to die for this cause; that's why I'm giving them a combination that's got such strong morals)

Dalv: INFJ 5w4 (why 5 instead of 4? Because I feel like he's more focused on understanding & knowledge (about who his "mysterious friend" was), than on individualism. Although, he's shown to want to express himself creativity. That's why I'd give him a 4 wing)

Martlet: ISFP 9w1 (she's all about her own values, just like Clover; that's why the two of them have a final battle in the Vengeance route. I'd call it a "battle of moral values" Is it right to kill more monsters than necessary instead of simply fleeing after Clover killed five? And no, just because she's friendly doesn't make Martlet an extrovert; I think she leads with Fi and not Se, for the reasons I just gave)

The 9w1 is bc she's peaceful and relaxed, but with a strong moral code

Starlo: ESFJ 3w2 (that 3w2 was always clear as day to me: he puts on an image to make himself look/feel cooler, but he also cares about making others happy)

Ceroba: ISFJ (still trying to figure out if she's more of a 4w5 or 1w2. Personally, I'd go with 1w2 because I've read these people focus too much on what's wrong (Kanako falling down, Chujin being dead), they become moody (this is pretty evident whenever she gets annoyed with anyone throughout the game); refuses to be cheered up (subconsciously, imo: no matter what Star tried to do, she was still stubbornly depressed). And at their best, 1w2s apparently become more fun and spontaneous. Now, we don't see this in-game since Ceroba was at her worst, but based on the picture with her and Starlo as teens, she DOES NOT seem withdrawn like a 4w5)

I don't really see Roba as being motivated to be her authentic self, either. She wants to do good (for monsterkind). The other reason I don't think she's 4w5 is because of what I've read about this type's growth: they become more logical and disciplined, gain more motivation to get things done and follow through. I feel like Ceroba already had all this, and had to take the first step into becoming the more fun-loving monster she used to be so long ago.

ISFJ, because dominant Si (too focused on the past), and what she needs to do is realize that there are different ways to go about things, not just one (inferior Ne)

Axis: ISTJ 6w5 (yeah, this guy just wants to do his job, doesn't seem to care about power and prefers to solve things alone, that's why I over E. With the enneagram, at some point I thought he'd be a 1w9, but when I read about 6w5s, I'm now leaning more into that one: reacts, plans & acts when stressed (this is how he is throughout the entire section), emotionally intense (when he's mad it DOES show), wants to please authority figures (Chujin in this case), and values security)

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I love how both Chujin and Clover are these future-oriented characters who wanted to change the world

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the fact Clover dies when everyone wants them to live (minus Star in flawed pacifist)...

...and lives when everyone wants them dead...

...just proves that life REALLY isn't fair

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I feel like most fans would describe Clover as this independent person who's got their stuff together and can handle anything, but these people often forget that Clover didn't start out like this.

Just like Starlo, Clover was only pretending to be a hero. This kid initially was clumsy and had a poor sense of the physical world, when you remember how they died at every turn.

The thing about them is that they subconsciously become more skilled the more they die, and the more Flowey resets. That's why Clover doesn't seem like a scared, clumsy kid when we first meet them. Because they've experienced so many resets, over a hundred, and died so many times, they now appear more "put together."

But even with all that being said, Flowey still has to encourage them to believe in themself more and not to be afraid of a new place (specifically Snowdin). He still has to lift Clover's spirits and he still asks them why they have a "long face" during their "first" encounter.

just one example

I've been trying to figure out whether or not I've typed Clover correctly, so I decided to do something else and compare them to Frisk. Now, we don't know how old Frisk is, but we can assume that all the fallen children were in a similar age range.

The thing is, Frisk had a way better sense of navigating the Underground. They had a better sense of direction, and unlike Clover, didn't die during the easiest possible fights (and especially the lasers in Hotland).

I like to think that, in some of the previous runs, Clover met Alphys, and she explained to them what to do, but they became paralyzed with fear and/or forgot that they simply had to run through the orange lasers. I guess that would mean Clover's more "flighty" than most fans think.

more comparisons with popular sayings

...intuiting AGAIN (I also find it interesting how they just FELT that the person on the pillar was Integrity, hence the silence)

Heck, even here they tend to zone out (it's their 100+ run, so I suppose it's an innate trait):

It wasn't Clover's personality that got them this far, but circumstances, aka Flowey. Without him intervening, they'd still be sheltered and safe, they wouldn't have become fearless enough to deal with so much stuff, and especially willingly die in the end (I feel like Clover never really knew just HOW brave they are beneath the naivety and clumsiness, and they brought the toy gun to only FEEL brave).

Again, what they needed was efficency and an idea on HOW to put their plan of saving the kids into action. Clover was always altruistic, but they were also clueless and clumsy and insecure and afraid of danger. That's why they had decided to stay with Toriel. Because their fear had stopped them from acting upon what they believed was the right thing to do.

Frisk didn't need THIS many resets. They even managed to defeat geno Undyne and Sans WITHOUT Flowey "guiding them along." Flowey saw Clover as so weak that he offered them Friendliness Pellets (minus in Pacifist 'cause Ceroba's there + she also gave Clover extra defense)

when it comes to their mbti...

Those with Ti/Se (ISTPs) are grounded and adaptable, whereas Clover literally had to be forced into dangerous situations to become more "capable" of dealing with the Underground.

Yeah, Clover always had this inferior Te (this leadership quality), when you remember that they wanted to "realize their plan," but it was really REALLY poorly developed. That's pretty much what got them to chicken out. They had no clue what to do, and they didn't want to die.

It hits even harder when they do just that in the end.

[profounddefendorcrusade-blog]

found this letter randomly

yeah, starlo wrote that.

[profounddefendorcrusade-blog]

Dalv's personality

Ok, when it comes to Dalv's mbti, it took me the least thought to figure out that he's an INFJ, but I'd like to talk about it anyway. I'll just be mentioning functions for this one

Ni (Dominant) - Dalv trusts his own intuition throughout the majority of the section (even his diary shows it). Instead of allowing Clover to explain themself, he listens to his gut feeling. He doesn't think about "proving" anything and trusts his own judgement too much.

Dominant Ni users are adept at predicting potential outcomes based on their understanding of underlying patterns and trends. They may anticipate how current events could unfold - In short, he "predicts" that Clover has come to harm him and the residents

Fe (Auxiliary) - This one was present, but poorly developed before we spared him, yet one thing that remained consistent was how much he valued harmonious relationships, despite keeping others at a distance. He didn't want to fight anybody, but the strong Ni dominant function made him act on his impulses & fight Clover

He also mentioned needing to become "the mentor he always should have been" if we're on a neutral route and, like Star, Dalv wants to do something nice for a certain group of people (kids in this case)

Ti (Tertiary) - I feel like this has to do with his internal logic about who Clover "really is" He doesn't care about discovering the objective truth, since he trusts his own internal one.

Se (Inferior) - Basically, the thing Dalv had to overcome was him refusing to look at the outside world to see the truth, and trusting too much at the things he can't physically see (aka the stuff in his head)

[profounddefendorcrusade-blog]

I used to ask myself why we didn't get a fight with Starlo AND his posse in vengeance route, but now I think I finally understand why: because Star was (metaphorically) separated from the other four. He became a more arrogant version of himself, someone who only listened to what HE HIMSELF wanted to do. Why else would he run off to "fight"Clover without anyone knowing?

Long story short, Starlo had to be reminded how to become a good leader again, the 'old him'; a team player who considers the feelings & thoughts of those around him.

Clover and Ceroba both helped with that. Clover by surrendering (which wasn't "fair" as Star said), and Ceroba by bringing him back to reality.