#batman issue 441

[inspisart]

I’m surprised he didn’t start licking the furniture

[umbrellajamming]

Reading A Lonely Place of Dying is so interesting in so many ways, but the question I'm still rotating in my mind is about Dick, and specifically why he ends up smiling and soft-advocating for Tim to be Bruce's Robin, after he had his morality crisis over young heroes with Jason's death.

So when he finds out about Jason's death, Dick feels guilty over giving Jason his Robin costume and not being there when he died:

New Teen Titans #55

To the extent that, later in the same issue, he unilaterally fires 15-year-old Danny Chase from the Titans, over Donna and Kory's objections, citing what happened to Jason. He even expresses doubt over his own young age when he became Robin, wondering whether that was a mistake:

New Teen Titans #55

However, when Dick visits Bruce in Gotham to both express his condolences over Jason's death and also confront him over not telling Dick about it, he explicitly rejects Bruce's implication of blame:

New Teen Titans #55

And later, when the Gargoyle is mentally torturing him over his past failures to the Titans, to Bruce, and Jason, Dick breaks through his self-blame issues and firmly asserts that there was nothing he could have done to prevent Jason's death.

Secret Origins (Vol. 2) #3

But understanding his lack of blame logically isn't the same as being totally past it, as it's part of Dick's larger cycle of guilt, as he acknowledges to his therapist:

The New Titans #57

So how does Dick get from here, still wrestling with guilt and feeling ambivalent about the idea of young heroes as a whole, to the end of A Lonely Place of Dying, where he smiles and basically urges Bruce to give Tim a chance to become Robin?

Like, yes, Dick then spends the entirety of Batman: Year Three worried about Bruce's tenuous mental state after Jason's death, reaching out to him in the midst of Batman's reckless, violent spiral, trying to both express care and to call his mentor and hero back to his foundations of crime-fighting through careful detective work, not through brutality - and getting rejected by Bruce over and over. Even while being proud of Dick's methods and the hero he's grown into, Bruce just can't seem to pull himself out of his own morass of self-destruction. Dick eventually has to leave him to it, though he clearly hasn't stopped worrying about Bruce by the start of ALPoD.

Yes, Tim impresses Dick multiple times over the course of ALPoD. First at the circus with his reflexes and his quick thinking (apparently almost as much as he irritates and baffles Dick with his stubborn evasiveness and pushy presumption, lol this total gremlin). Then at Wayne Manor when Tim goes through his deduction of Batman's and Robin's identities, although this one is more an implication through Dick's decision to show Tim the Cave immediately afterward, and Alfred's words to Tim.

Batman #441

And yet Alfred's sentiment here is immediately contradicted when Tim insistently pushes the Robin costume at Dick, and Dick gets pissed off, saying that, "When Jason died, he took Robin with him. And no matter how much anybody may want it - you can't bring back the dead."

The New Titans #61

How does Dick go from this to accepting Tim as the new potential Robin all of two issues later!! This boy's emotions are so mixed up, lol.

I feel like while Dick is clearly angered by Tim's presumptions, kind of baffled and creeped-out by the sort of parasocial fixation Tim has on both Bruce/Batman and Dick/Robin, below the surface he's also genuinely absorbing Tim's driving love and care for them both. Like, he's way too ticked off to show it or even think of it consciously at the moment - and it's hard to process!! despite that day at Haly's Circus tying them together a decade ago, this kid is a rando, it's out of nowhere, it's wild to be confronted with!! - but on some level he has to be touched by Tim's care and passion for their legacy. He wouldn't make his heel-turn later and smile at Tim so approvingly otherwise.

Like, Dick wants Bruce to have a partner that cares for him that much, that forces him to care for himself in a way that he clearly hasn't been since Jason's death. And Dick is both afraid and aware that he can't fill that role anymore - that he can try to stand beside Batman as Nightwing and support him that way, but he can't stand behind Bruce in his protective shadow again, can't cramp himself back into Robin.

So even as Dick is making line-faces at this bizarre kid pushing himself at them, talking about Jason and Dick and Bruce and what Batman needs like he knows better than Dick, UGH… Dick is also considering… is maybe moved a bit by that star-bright conviction and overflowing love in the face of all the doubts that seem to plague both Bruce and Dick lately… is maybe hoping, seeing a possible light in the dark. Not on a conscious level, perhaps, but it's maybe churning below the surface with everything else Dick is thinking about.

Anyway, Dick still tracks Batman down and tries being a supportive partner as Nightwing, even going "I'm here. Always," when Batman finally brings himself to admit that he needs help. Only to IMMEDIATELY run face-first into Bruce's control issues and post-Jason-disregarding-orders trauma - "You're not with the Titans now. If you want to be with me, you follow my orders. Now do as I say." (The New Titans #61) Oof, instant I'm-NIGHTWING-not-ROBIN friction, but Dick swallows it for now.

Then Two-Face blows up a building on top of both of them, and Tim (and Alfred!) have to rescue them both. By the time that they've been dug out, Alfred and Dick are both praising Tim's potential to a very baffled and alarmed, verging on angry, Batman lol. Dick and Alfred then grin at each other while young Tim struggles against his intimidation and argues the tremendously (and understandably!) reluctant Batman to a standstill.

Batman #442

As they drive away afterward (Bruce, Dick and Tim in the Batmobile to track down Two-Face - using the tracker Tim planted on him, good job Timmy!! - and Alfred toward home in a separate car), we get the following thought-bubbles:

Bruce: Even if he's right, I don't want another partner. Dick: Bruce, for once, think with your heart, not with cold logic. Tim: He doesn't want me, but he hasn't said no. So just do your best… Alfred: …One way or another, the rest will take care of itself.

Batman #442

"Think with your heart, not with cold logic" - so does Dick's line here mean that this is what he himself is doing at this point? Setting aside his logic, his fears and reservations about young heroes, about Jason's death, about putting another young boy in the Robin costume - because Tim joining them, maybe becoming Bruce's new partner, feels right? Because everything that Tim has shown of himself so far means the kid deserves a chance, at least? Because Bruce's caution after Jason's death would mean that he'll make sure to 'do it right this time'? Because Tim's passion and conviction could be what Batman needs, and - maybe as much if not more than that - could be something that deserves to be nurtured into something great, despite Dick's own (and Bruce's) fears?

Because Dick has to be wrestling with and at least quelling (if not fully letting go of) his fears about the risks to young heroes in these issues, it doesn't make sense for him to be okay with Tim as Robin otherwise. And it can't all be about what use Tim could be to Bruce - the leash he could put on Batman's out of control behavior. That's far too selfish and manipulative as a sole motive for Dick Grayson; especially after Jason, he wouldn't encourage a kid to jump into the meat-grinder of vigilantism solely to save Bruce or preserve the legacy of Batman & Robin.

I feel like Dick has to also be seeing something in Tim here, his potential, his determination, the good that he can and wants desperately to do, that Dick has to respect, has to think deserves a shot. When Alfred goes, "The boy should be a politician!" and Dick replies, "He'd do more good with Bruce," (Batman #442; panels above), it does feel like he's thinking of the difference Tim himself could make in the world. Dick has to be remembering why he himself could not be put off from the vigilante life when he was even younger than Tim, why Jason also went out there and did his best every night. To help people, in a way that mattered.

Anyway, Tim also puts in a good showing when they confront Two-Face, despite giving Bruce a near heart-attack over this strange unfamiliar boy wearing his son's uniform when Tim briefly appears to have been crushed - only for him to have saved himself and warned Batman and Nightwing of danger through his quick thinking.

Afterward, Alfred and Dick both advocate for Tim, so Dick is clearly pulling for Tim to be given a chance. Dick's smile here, my heart.

Batman #442

I still wish they'd been a little more explicit with the turn of Dick's mindset here, but at the same time I guess it's pretty effective as show-not-tell!

All in all, I feel like ALPoD was very effective storytelling, well done Marv, hugely enjoyable read, and I can't wait to read more.

[farshootergotme]

i wanna start reading abt dick / robin / nw / why does he have so many names. do you have any recommendations..... ;;; ??

Well, yes!!

If you want to start with what's important, I recommend:

Robin v2 Annual #4: One of the many versions of Dick Grayson's origin and my personal favorite.

Robin - Year One: I think it's a great comic since it's short and a good introduction to Dick Grayson's Robin once he's settled into the role.

The Brave and The Bold v1 #54 & #60: First introductions to the Teen Titans!! This origin hasn't been changed much nowadays, so you'll be good starting from here to learn about the team.

Teen Titans 1966 #53: Teen Titans origin and break up. Their adventures in this comic are all fun to read, so the full comic is recommended, but it isn't something essential to read, so you can skip it if you'd rather do that.

New Teen Titans v1 #1: Introduction of the new Teen Titans! After this issue you can read the rest of the comic, but that'll be up to you.

New Teen Titans #39: Robin leaves the mantle. In newer comics it's Batman who fires Robin and forces Dick out of the costume, but originally it was Dick's decision to stop being Robin and become his own hero. However, if you want to read the "Batman fires Robin" version, for that you'd have to read Batman v1 #408 or Nightwing v2 #101 (the latter being much harsher than the prior).

That's what I'd recommend to read about Robin Dick Grayson if you're just starting. After that, you can begin exploring any comic you want.

Now, moving on to Nightwing:

Tales of the Teen Titans #44: Nightwing introduction!! This would be the first time we get to see Dick in his new costume.

Nightwing - Secret Files and Origins: More about how Dick becomes Nightwing and the Kryptonian origin of the name, plus some other stuff that happen in this short comic.

Batman #416: Dick Grayson meets Jason Todd, the new Robin! Can't miss this one. It's nice to see how Dick confronts Bruce and ends up getting along with Jason.

The New Titans #55: Dick finds out Jason died and confronts Bruce about it. It doesn't go very well, and it's probably one of the moments that strains their relationship the most.

Batman #436 - #441: 5 issues in which you'll get the first look at Tim Drake's character, lots of Dick and Bruce angsty interactions after Jason's death, a new version of Dick Grayson's origin and then some more about Tim's character.

Robin v4 #0: Dick & Tim, Robin Dick Grayson flashbacks and finally Dick taking on the Batman mantle just as Bruce goes away for a while.

Nightwing 1996 #1 - #3: Nightwing and Bludhaven. Not my favorite issues, but they are important to learn more about Bludhaven and why Dick decided to stay and protect the city.

These are the comics and issues I recommend to start reading about Dick Grayson. Anything more you want to learn will be up to you, and you can start with whatever you like, this is just my personal suggestion.

A few extra recommendations I'd give you are:

Robin & Batman 2021: Beautiful art and a very nice approach to the start of Bruce and Dick's dynamic. And since it's a short comic, you can read it in one evening, which is always convenient if you don't have a lot of time to read comics.

Flash plus Nightwing: Dick and Wally have one of my favorite friendships in DC, so I recommend this comic about one of their adventures together during one of their annual vacations.

Secret Origins v2 #13: Dick in this one basically retells many things that's happened to him over the years while talking to Jericho and it's, overall, a very enjoyable issue.

Teen Titans 1966: I know I said it earlier, but it really is a very fun comic. I recommend to read when you're in the mood for something lighthearted. Each issue has it's own plot, so you can read one and then leave it until you're in the mood again.

Hope this helps you, anon!

[phoenixkaptain]

I don’t want to get into a debate on whether or not Tim’s parents were actually abusive, but I do want to state outright that it doesn’t really matter, because Tim didn’t trust his parents.

What do I mean by this? Well, the beginning of Tim in comics is A Lonely Place of Dying (I’ve talked about it ad nauseum at this point) and one thing you may see people mention is what Tim says about his parents in it.

These are both from Batman (1940-2011) #441

Alfred asks, basically, “You do have parents, don’t you?” And Tim’s body language as he talks about them is strange to me.

Tim scratches his face. This is the only time Tim touches his face in these comics. And his eyes, he stops looking at Alfred, who he’s talking to, and looks at Dick, all the while changing the subject.

Is he lying? No. He’s uncomfortable. A part of this is that this interaction takes place before Tim tells them who he is, which Tim doesn’t want them to know. This is just the first time we see any hint of uncertainty on Tim. Interesting.

More interesting is, in the same issue

“I never told them, but for years I kept having the same nightmare over and over again.”

This is pretty clear cut. He doesn’t tell his parents things. He doesn’t tell them important things. And, well, it’s probably because he doesn’t talk to them very often

These two are from Batman (1940-2011) #444

First things first, Bruce brings up the subject. This isn’t the first time, post his introduction, that we see Tim and Bruce talking. They talk in #443. But Bruce has to broach the subject.

And Tim is avoidant. He says they don’t call often, and he isn’t bothered by it, or he doesn’t appear bothered by it. He doesn’t say what they’re fighting about, nor does he actually say what they’ll do if the trip doesn’t help. He’s very offhand about the whole thing. He almost treats it like he isn’t talking about his parents, but just two people in some circumstances he happens to know about.

Tim cuts Bruce off by pointing out the computer. He doesn’t want Bruce to finish, he doesn’t want Bruce making a promise he ultimately won’t keep, he doesn’t want Bruce to focus on him.

Tim’s relationship with his parents, especialy his father, is, from what I know, always presented in this detached way. Even in Young Justice, when Tim talks to his father, he does so through a newspaper. He doesn’t make eye contact, which is a strange thing because Tim always makes eye contact.

(That’s part of why Tim is a bit unnerving in his introduction. He is always making eye contact. Always.)

Tim doesn’t trust his parents. Why doesn’t he? Because they’re busy. Busy with work, busy with fighting, busy with each other. He doesn’t tell them things. He doesn’t tell them about his nightmares, he definitely didn’t tell them about his vacation week roadtrip, and he doesn’t tell them about Bruce.

Does that make them abusive? I guess not. Not in these issues, anyway. Down the line, I think his father especially crosses the line, but at this point? They’re mutually ignoring each other. Tim talks about his parents in a detached way, as though it doesn’t effect him. And, maybe it doesn’t. This was 1989, not exactly the pinnacle of mental health awareness with proficient knowledge of how absent parents effect the children they’ve not been raising.

Or, Tim used Batman and Robin as a proxy for affection, which is why he feels so strongly towards them and why he tells Alfred they mean everything to them and why Tim is unafraid in the face of his own death but panicky in the face of Alfred’s death. Batman and Robin are just his hyperfixation, something to obsessively focus on and keep track of to keep his head above the water, something he’s been obsessed with since he was three and saw Batman for the very first time, something he says himself he’s followed since he could read to the point that he listened to news reports on the off-chance Batman and Robin might be mentioned at the age of nine.

Who knows? ¯\ _(ツ)_/¯

[kay-enemy]

Well, I didn't get as much (any) writing as I wanted done over the holiday, but here is more detail on the end notes from No Saint Alfred:

To set the scene, it is roughly 6 months after Jason Todd died as Robin. Tim Drake is insisting Batman still needs Robin...by which he means specifically Dick being Robin rather than Nightwing:

(Batman #441, 1989)

Meanwhile, Nightwing and Batman have already been defeated by Two Face:

(Batman #442, 1989)

So: one child dead due to the adults using him as a soldier. One young adult about to die due to being raised as a child soldier. One adult about to die due to his own choices.

What does Alfred do? He encourages another child soldier to run into danger!!!

(#441)

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

To Alfred's very slight credit, he does seem to change his tune in the next issue and tries to discourage Tim?

(#442)

"Tim, don't. You know what happened to Jason."

"This is wrong. I shouldn't be doing this."

But he still drives an untrained 13-year-old to the scene of danger????

Then to top it all off, Tim wasn't even critical in saving the day. Tim, who had NO TRAINING in vigilantism at this point, was being beaten by Two Face in a scene very similar to Jason and Joker:

(Tim and Two Face in 442)

(Jason and Joker in #427, 1988)

And Tim only got an upper hand once Alfred caused a distraction - which could have been achieved with Gordon, Batwoman, anyone from the Justice League who could get there with super speed... Anyone but an innocent child!

In conclusion, Robin would have died with Jason if not for Alfred. For all the fanon discussion of Tim forcing the issue, he didn't want or even consider being Robin himself until Alfred put the idea in his head. Alfred is worse than an enabler, he is actively encouraging the use of child soldiers.

I will not forgive Alfred, and neither should Jason or Tim.

Happy New Year! Hopefully I will be just as spiteful in 2024

(This isn't even my main complaint about the comics, idk why I made a big post about this one rather than the glaring problems)

[pokeberry5]

i finally went and read A Lonely Place of Dying and i was losing it

(from Batman #441)

where????? did this collar come from????? why is it so tall??? did dick just deal with that much crumpled and obviously stiff fabric (if it can stand up like that) under a turtleneck and a jacket???

the collar's even more ridiculous because in the subsequent New Titans issue #61, it's drawn like this:

that is, not protruding over his head

(and of course, this is all happening in the background of dick and tim's argument about how dick is not going to reassume the mantle of robin)

[superboy-tm]

Let's Read Tim Drake Comics!

Okay decided to do a complete read through of every single appearance of Tim Drake in comics from 1989-2011 (aka, from his creation until New 52).

I'm using (and editing) a list I pulled from DCUguide.com, which has been very helpful but not entirely accurate in some places (esp re: uncertain continuity comics, which I've largely placed based on publication date and, where relevant, content that helps place the issue in context).

To get started, here are his very earliest appearances:

Batman #436 (August 1989): "Batman Year 3: Different Roads" [Flashback]

Batman #440 (December 1989): "A Lonely Place of Dying, Chapter One: Suspects

"New Titans #60 (November 1989): "A Lonely Place of Dying, Chapter Two: Roots"

Batman #441 (Holiday 1989): "A Lonely Place of Dying, Chapter Three: Parallel Lines!

"New Titans #61 (December 1989): "A Lonely Place of Dying, Part Four: Going Home!"

Batman #442 (winter 1989): "A Lonely Place of Dying, Chapter Five: Rebirth!"

Note: DC planned to introduce Tim Drake several months before his full introduction into the comics, which is why his technical first appearance is in a flashback to the Graysons' death. He's not named there, but when Tim reappears in A Lonely Place of Dying and tells his side of that story, you'll notice the reuse of almost the same panels from the Batman #436 flashback scenes.

Neat!

[flashfuture]

About the comics supporting that Tim liked Jason's Robin...what comics are you thinking of? I just feel like every comic mention of Jason as Robin I've seen Tim make has been derogatory lol but I'm wondering if I missed something now.

So issues 436-439 are reintroducing Dick's childhood to the reader. Showing us that Bruce loved and coddled Dick and was able to even his temper and hone his skills like he failed to with Jason. But it's also showing us Dick is too grown up now to be Robin right. These are the issues right before Tim Drake is introduced. More level headed than Jason with no direct sense of justice like Dick just interested in helping Batman. That's why he originally contacted Dick to reconnect with Bruce because he saw how depressed Batman had become.

I think some people are interpreting this from Batman #440 to be that Tim thinks Batman was happier with Dick than Jason but what Tim is clearly thinking is Batman is better with a Robin. And he knows Jason is dead and he knows Dick has stopped being Robin and thinks if he can get them to be the dynamic duo Batman will be better off

(Batman #441)

Like Tim says Batman needs a Robin he doesn't really have an opinion other than logically knowing Jason is dead.

(Batman #456)

And after Tim is given the job kind of. Tim wants to be magic just like Jason and Dick. I might even retract my previous assessment and say Tim doesn't have a favorite Robin just the idea of Robin. And as he in the future might begin to resent the idea of Robin these ideas could change but

(Batman #456)

I really think he just wants to be Batman's Robin more than anything. Batman is his favorite. But people hate Batman for the character he's become and kind of retcon this. There are more panels but this gets the idea across I think

[batbaffle]

totally not trying to stop the fun or make it a thing, I just know I like it when people let me know, that pic from Grayson #12 is actually Dick and Tim, not Dick and Jason! It's a recreation of their first meeting in Batman 441. That's why the kid looks so small, Tim was somewhere under 7 at the time (probs more like 2-4). It is super confusing that they referenced that scene in the N52 when it was out of continuity? Yes, totally, but the issue does a lot of pre-reboot references haha

inserting the full page for reference:

is it really tim???

hypothetically, if that was supposed to depict tim's first meeting with dick, dick would have to be in the circus!robin costume. nightwing costume is out of place.

not to mention, dick looks like a proper adult there, rather than 13 or younger. (13 is the oldest that dick could've reasonably been when he met tim, depending on which timeline you follow). lonely place of dying didn't draw dick super consistent to his age, but i don't think they did the same in grayson.

you're correct about the age range tim would've been in when he met dick though! they definitely implied that tim was around 3 years old.

pics from a lonely place of dying:

plus the kid in the grayson pic has a strong resemblance to davis and neary's art of young jason. 12(?) year old jason is legitimately just like that. tiny lad.

pics from detective comics #569:

i'm personally not convinced that it's supposed to be tim in the green sweater there, anon :/

(it's entirely possible that they intended to have tim there but made it unclear? kinda a stretch though. not very likely.)

looking at that grayson page as a whole, dick is reminiscing about both tim and jason as his brothers. he'd be showing heavy favoritism towards tim if there weren't any depictions of young jason present, yknow?

[nightwings-robin]

Tim meeting Alfred for the first time is so hilarious. The boy just keeps fangirling about every small thing in the house. "I don't want to cause any trouble" says he while playing the piano loudly

Both panels are from Batman (1940) #441

And even when Alfred loses his patience he still goes "you do have parents, don't you?"

Like. I just Know his mind is going 'please Lord, don't give us another black haired, blue eyed orphan boy, this household is not strong enough '

[brettsinger]

Age of Apocalypse and More

My guest this week is comedian Ian Koranek! Which was better, Batman The Animated Series or X-Men The Animated Series? What was Ian's first comic book? How great is Marvel Digital Unlimited? What did Brett think of Superior Spider-Man before he read it? When was Amazing Spider-Man in a rut and what happened? What digital comics services does Brett subscribe to? What is Comixology Unlimited? What happens in Legionquest? How does time travel work in that story? How did it lead into Age of Apocalypse? What comic book characters have stayed dead? What's the difference between Phoenix and Dark Phoenix? What are the best X-Men stories really about? Who has the longest run writing Amazing Spider-Man? What made Spider-Man: No Way Home so good? What is Kim and Kim? 

Reading list: Legionquest (free on Kindle Unlimited) Age of Apocalypse Superior Spider-Man Amazing Spider-Man #441 Amazing Spider-Man #500 Amazing Spider-Man #600 Amazing Spider-Man #700 Amazing Spider-Man #800 (free on Comixology Unlimited) Spider-Man: The Other Marvel 9/11 issue (Amazing Spider-Man Vol 2 36, free on Comixology Unlimited) Transmetropolitan (free on Comixology Unlimited) Ex Machina (free on Kindle Unlimited) Something Is Killing The Children (free on Comixology Unlimited) Crisis on Infinite Earths (free on Kindle Unlimited) Kim and Kim

Watch list: Batman TAS X-Men TAS Spider-Man TAS Spider-Man: No Way Home

Check out Comics Who Love Comic Books!

[forestlingincorporated]

I saw some tags on a post @silverwhittlingknife reblogged about Tim’s introduction, and it got me thinking about how CLEVERLY it was written. 

Because Tim’s first appearance is NOT in a Lonely Place of Dying. 

Tim first appears in Batman 436, a Dick centric comic. It’s in the aftermath of Jason’s death, the first time Dick returns to the manor, in time for the parole hearing of Tony Zucco - the man who killed his parents. During this storyline, we get a recap of Dick’s backstory. 

This is the first appearance of Tim Drake. He has a presence in this flashback, they certainly draw attention to him, but I think if you read this without knowing Tim will be important going in, you’d assume he was little more than a writing divice - a stand in for the entire circus audiance, demonstrating how the audiance feels watching the Graysons die and Batman appear on the scene, a reason for the Graysons to have a final family photo in the moments before their deaths, and an anchor in the crowd to see, yup, Bruce Wayne dissapeared right before Batman makes his entrance. 

The next several comics are still focused on Dick’s backstory and the plot with Zucco. It wraps up with Dick sitting down in front of his parents’ graves to chat with them. 

A Lonely Place of Dying is the NEXT issue, where Tim is present, but we don’t see his face yet. 

Tim’s a little creepy! He’s off panel, he knows things he shouldn’t, damn, he drives his bike through a couple puddles of blood. And that dialog is not actually comforting out of context. 

Tiiiiim, that’s breaking and entering. Tim, that’s illegal, lmao

We first see Tim’s face as a Not A Toddler in The New Titans 60, three months after his first appearance. 

We don’t find out he and the kid from the circus are the same person until Batman 441, released a week later. 

And... idk, I really like that pacing of it? Reminding us of Dick’s story from Dick’s perspective first but with this slightly added element, and only making that element more important later? That way the audiance can go “oh, yeah... that photo, from the last storyline, yeah, I remember that” the same way DICK has to feel “oh... yeah, that kid from the circus... I remember that.” 

Idk, I just really like it, I think it’s really well-done. 

[phoenixkaptain]

Hello and welcome to Kacie Reread ‘A Lonely Place of Dying’ And Is Making It Everyone’s Problem

Over the course of five issues, those being Batman #440-442 and the New Titans #60-61, I could discuss any number of things. Did Tim call in the tip on the Ravager to Gordon, or was it somebody else? Did Dick backpack to Haly’s Circus, or did he take a bus? How far did Tim go on his little bike? How is it possible for Jack Drake to be so obnoxious that I already hate him, even though he was only on maybe two pages? A lot of things to discuss.

Instead of any of those, I’m going to share my favourite Tims.

Batman #440

This is Tim’s photo collection. I can’t imagine it’s all of it, that would be unlikely from something we learn later, but this is a glimpse. This is most likely why people started the headcanon that Tim stalked Batman and Robin. While most of his pictures are clearly newspaper clippings, some of them aren’t, and some of the ones that aren’t are also candids. While not foolproof evidence for that theory, I think this is foolproof evidence that Tim is weird. He has framed pictures on his nightstand.

The New Titans #60

This is the cover. That shadowy figure is Tim. I just think it’s kind of funny.

The New Titans #60

See his liddol face? His liddol hand?? He peek, it’s so cute. Yes he is hiding behind a dumpster, that matters little.

The New Titans #60

I think he’s really cute here. “Sorry, I can’t leave. I’ve got things to do.” Adorable. And his leapfrog? Perfect form, 10/10.

The New Titans #60

These are all from the same page. I just wanted to put them here to highlight my favourite aspect of Tim: he’s smol. So tiny, I swear, how did he get so itty-bitty?

Batman #441

I just really like this panel. Tim’s nonchalance, Dick’s face now that someone else has to deal with the weird stalker kid too, Alfred’s reaction. Perfect. The perfect panel.

Batman #441

“I’m not twelve, I’m thirteen” He’s a baby. I call this one Piano Tim, because I think he’s adorable.

Batman #441

I just wanted this one here to highlight the height difference between Alfred and Tim. Alfred is leaning down in this frame. Tim is so tiny.

Batman #441 I like Tim’s increasingly manic smile. And poor Dick looks so lost.

The New Titans #61 More tiny Tim and Alfred.

Batman #442

I just think his pose is really cute, sue me

Batman #442

Tim next to Batman is the height (badum-tssh) of comedy. He barely goes up to Bruce’s shoulder!

Batman #442

All of these are added because of his little smile, I love his expressions. His goofy grin! He is so tiny! Also, Bruce pouting is always funny

[heroesriseandfall]

For me I do think Dick should be a preteen but his age in his origins was inconsistent enough even before Tim was ever introduced—it already ranged from 8-13 without Tim involved. So to me it makes more sense to move along that range if I want the timeline to work with more realism. (Obviously I’m biased to post-Crisis as much as I love pre-Crisis for actually containing Dick’s Robin years.)

If I don’t want the timeline to be realistic then 8 year old Dick is extremely fun so long as they still meet at the circus and Tim still remembers it (you can pry Dick promising to do a quadruple flip for his toddler eventual-brother from my cold dead fingers) and so long as Tim is still 13 when he’s introduced (because that’s just important for me to calculate everyone else’s age later on when his age becomes the most consistently referenced). So yeah I think it’s better to utilize the surreal-comic-logic in that case.

Also I consulted my timeline doc and found some more of the post-Crisis references to Dick’s age in his origins, so here’s some more just so they can all be in one place here:

Another time Dick was said to be 8 is in Gotham Knights #21 (surprise! The writer was Devin Grayson).

10 years old was used near the beginning of post-Crisis in Secret Origins #13, used again in New Titans #57. For Batman Year Three, he’d be 10 doing math from the many “11 years ago” refs in BY3 (with me being extremely confident Dick was 21 at the time, so many comics indicate he’s 21 that I’d need another post), but the first issue contradicts itself and the rest of the issues in that arc by also saying it was 12 years ago and almost 10 years ago. After that, Secret Origins #50 says he’d just turned 10 (<- according to this comic it might be Dick’s birthday today).

(10 seems to be the most common age around the time A Lonely Place of Dying was published, which would make Dick Robin for 9 years and Tim almost/barely 2 at the circus, which is a bit too young developmentally IMO, the writing makes him seem closer to 3…but Marv Wolfman not being exact in child development does not surprise me at all lol.)

Batman #710, Batman #713, and Batman and Robin (2009) #13 all have Dick younger than 12 or exactly 12 when he was Robin, because he says he was 12 when doing Robin-y things like his first time jumping through a particular window and when he understood the Joker. In Batman Confidential #13, Alfred says Dick was 13 a year after he became Robin, making him 12 at the time.

Batman #416 says Dick was Robin for 6 years before being fired at 19, making him 13. This matches up with later Robin: Year One #1 saying Dick was in middle school and Nightwing Vol. 2 #151 saying Two Face beating him up (a few months after he became Robin, as told in Robin Year One) happened when he was 13.

Teen Titans Vol. 3 #1/2 places Dick’s parents dying 10 years before Tim Drake (who’d almost or just turned 16) joins the Teen Titans. Dick was probably 24 at the time so he’d be 14—however, this timeline also says the New Teen Titans formed 5 years before this group of Teen Titans (so 5 years after Dick’s parents died). That part of the #1/2 timeline is off from my age references by like 0.5–1 year, they should’ve formed about 5.5–6 years before Tim turned 16, in which case since they formed when Dick was 18 he’d be 13 when his parents died 5 years earlier.

In Batman #615 and some other comics, Bruce says he and Dick were around the same age when their parents died, but this doesn’t actually help much because Bruce’s age also varies all the way from 6-12, though I think 8 is common, followed by maybe 10.

As for the gap between Dick’s parents dying and him becoming Robin—which would technically affect all of this—that gap is 6 months in Batman #441 and Robin Annual 4 on page 39 (but in Annual 4 they only confirm Robin is a long-term role a year after his parents died when he’d already been Robin for 6 months), and it’s just under a year from right after his 10th birthday to right before his 11th birthday in Secret Origins #13. I know there are also some comics where Dick seems to become Robin pretty much immediately. I don’t think Batman: Legend of the Dark Knight #100 clarifies a specific length of time but it feels quick.

I think those are all the ones I can find/remember.

Nightwing Vol. 2 #54

Nightwing Vol. 2 #73

Gibsontown, Florida, aka “Gibtown”

Ahhh, okay. Huh.

[batfilledsky]

Batman (1940-), Issue 441

Crazy about this issue of Batman, in which Bruce and Harvey are trying to meet up and defeat each other, but there are two different incredibly two themed crimes available that night, so they keep missing each other

[aliteralchicken]

It’s his own collection so everything is literally a £1 each, I got batman issues 437-441 (the batman year 3 issues I was missing and two issues of lonely place of dying) and a signed copy of an issue of kid eternity

absolute mvp of a stall at the comic fair yesterday guys, he sold me issue one of batgirl year 1 and a couple of other cool issues last time I went and he’s somehow upped his game