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show-us-kaidenshenandoah · 8 months ago

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i'm hard of hearing and i have an auditory processing disorder, but i don't know sign. so my opinion is definitely of lesser importance than those who are deaf

please pardon any mispellings as i am dyslexic, am writing this on my phone, and am not editing it too seriously

i think it's overall fine to use ASL or SSL in the same way it is fine for one's fantasy world to use English; however, ive learned that's really only the case if a person is fluent in it. you're fluent in English, so it makes sense for you to use English throughout this story; if you are not also fluent in ASL and/or SSL, it is less recommended for you to, utilizing the same aforementioned logic as using English language, use either of these two languages throughout your story from what i have seen from the deaf community. (it might be easier to understand through a hypothetical. it isn't an exact equivalent, of course, but it will help illustrate the point; just indulge me in a suspension of disbelief and "be silly". let's pretend i am writing a story where, for whatever reason, i am using a singular Swedish-only speaking character while everyone else is English-speaking. i know that'd be silly to do pragmatically, but again: "be silly" with me for a second. i have one Swedish-speaking character, everyone else is English-speaking. this would be fine for me to do if i was fluent in both languages, as you are fluent in Swedish and English. however, i am not fluent in Swedish. as a result of this lack of fluency, unless i am actively practicing to learn Swedish, there is going to be a LOT of mistakes in me saying "this is the Swedish equivalent of xyz in English", i am going to get grammar wrong, i am going to miss nuance, and i am going to assume there are Swedish words that might not exist because they exist in English. i may be using an official "Swedish to English" website as reference, but i am going to fuck up so much in my lack of Swedish fluency that for any Swedish-speaker like yourself: you are going to cringe and wish i had became fluent in Swedish before writing this or that i gotten in contact with someone who is fluent in Swedish to correct my mistakes in linguistics, nuances, culture, and whatnot. that's what i mean by "it's fine for you to use English, ASL, or SSL in fantasy if you're fluent!" and why im suggesting thoughtfulness in proceeding if you are NOT fluent. i hope this makes sense lol but yeah! sign language of any kind is, ultimately, a language. so the same respects applies to sign language as to Swedish in this sense when it comes to application of dialogue and the nuances inherent within that language's culture. this is by no means saying "no deaf characters or sign language allowed unless you are in the community!",of course, that'd be as ridiculous as "no Swedish characters allowed unless you are Swedish/have lived in Sweden for x amount of years!". no, of course, do it! inclusivity: yay!! we just have to be proceed thoughtfully when we create a character that represents a specific identity lmao but yeah, to summarize this hypothetical: if you has wanted to do a Swedish-only-speaking character amongst your English speaking cast, you are fluent in both, of course you can do that! but i would need to proceed with caution as a monolingual English-speaker and rely on someone Swedish-speaking checking my work)

and, of course, there are cases of a person not fluent writing a really good story staring a deaf person, like the manga "A Sign Of Affection" by Suu Morishita (which is a duo going under one pseudonym if my memory recollects right); however, they have a consultant named Yuki (who is a deaf person who uses sign in Japan. they also named their female lead after her in thanks lol but for clarity, ill be using "Yuki" to refer to the consultant, not the character) who they interview before every chapter to ensure they are portraying their deaf character realistically, to help them brainstorm future chapter and scenarios, for final approval of past chapters before they finish it up, and will also ask her to translate the dialogue for the deaf characters to say through sign (they film her signing her translation to use as an art reference, and also use her to find out what exactly the characters can say since very few sign-languages have one-to-one translations of a hearing-language. the sentences grammar and the available vocabulary for one's diction are different). you can read more about their process with Yuki within the manga, they explain it as a bonus feature between chapters and have also done interviews for magazines and whatnot. so there is fluency in that example, it just doesn't come from the mangaka duo. if you have a resource to apply that to with ASL or SSL, i think that makes perfect sense to do so! have that person help you out! it is overall preferable to have someone who doesn't know sign try to depict fluency in THAT way, from what i understand after looking into deaf people discuss preferred characterization anyway

if you want to do a conlang for a fictive sign language (especially if you do not have an ASL or SSL fluent deaf person to use as a resource of if you yourself are not fluent in either or), i think that also makes sense. i started learning about how deaf people prefer to be depicted in fantasy works starting at this reddit thread (there's links to further discussion within it, and invitation of where to ask questions). i also like this tiktok user named @/bow_asintakea_rawn who has a lot of deaf content relating to fiction/fantasy that could potentially be a resource (you could even try talking to him if you feel so comfortable). and lastly, i like the youtuber @/oakwyrm, who is a disabled person who does a lot of disabled media analysis (especially fantasy) and whose essays can service as a resource in that way (i forget if oakwyrm is deaf or not though, but he does discuss deafness in some videos despite many deaf people not considering their deafness as a disability, which is fair, and others do, which is also fair). i have other deaf youtubers i could recommend, but none of them interact with fantasy much so i dont know how useful they would be; if you want more deaf resources, i would suggest just googling "deaf youtubers" since i know deafness in respect to "how to portray this community and sign-language in fantasy" is more important to this discussion so i won't detract by offering resources that digress from this topic

i dont know many fantasy pieces that include how to depict deaf people, but i know the overall sentiment about sign language in fiction/fantasy is "Depict signing as functionally the same as speaking" since it is just another language. this sounds counter-productive initially if the idea is new to you, but the idea of novels needing the following reminder makes sense: "There's no need to replace '[deaf character] said' with '[deaf character] signed'. Introduce the deaf character using sign, introduce who knows sign and who needs a translator (if anyone), and from then on carry on using '[deaf character] said' whenever they have something to say. We have grasped from then on that they are using sign. You don't need to make them the odd one out of the group from then on by using a differnt tag just for them. It's alienating. Only use 'signed' as a tag when it's an example where the signing distinction is necessary, like '[hearing character] signed to me not to whisper, his eyes trained on the guard searching for us' or a similar situation" (this is not a quote, otherwise i would cite it. i cant find where i learned this idea from, but i did want to ensure there was a distinction that this was not my idea, but me parroting an idea i have heard and learned from, if nothing else). i mention this to you and your comic because the same logic applies to visual distinctions of signing. from what i have seen: the preferred depiction of sign in graphic novels specifically includes a similar line of logic: "Use the same speech-bubbles as you would use for hearing characters that are not signing", and the idea of "translation boxes" is less preferred unless there is a specific reason why (like maybe a deaf character knows two sign-languages and is switching to one most of the cast doesn't know). though "A Sign Of Affection"'s manga is a great example of deaf characters in manga overall, they unfortunately don't do this (meaning their deaf characters don't use the same speech-bubbles when they sign as when hearing characters are speaking and not using sign), which i personally don't recommend copying unless a deaf person/people who sign DO advise to mimic it. i personally recommend to use the same speech bubbles as hearing characters have when they do not sign, as aforementioned; that's the impression i have been given by those ive listened to in the deaf community. which to do the same speech-bubbles regardless of sign or no sign makes sense, to me, as it better treats sign-language visually as of similar respects as any other language. (but, again: deaf people's opinion over mine. especially if they disagree. i am parroting, what i parrot is biased to what i have seen within my sphere of the internet; i am of far less importance) HOWEVER, something really cool about "A Sign of Affection"'s speech bubbles that the deaf community and hearing community both really like is how "A Sign of Affection" will use speech-bubbles to show what Yuki can/can't hear. they have different text colors to show when their deaf main character hears something being said and when that deaf character does not hear the person (because the hearing character has their lips covered, because the deaf character wasn't looking directly at the hearing person's lips and was not aware they were speaking, because the hearing character spoke literally behind the hearing person's back, and so on). if you want to mimic that aspect, that's totally okay to do so lol and i'm sure there are other graphic novel resources of deaf people to look into, but i haven't encountered many (eg. i know "A Silent Voice" exists but i stay away from stories with suicidal characters due to triggers, so i have no idea if it is reverred as fondly by the deaf community as i know "A Sign Of Affection" is due to my lack of interaction with the content/its fandom)

but i hope this small handful of leads helps you out! if my assumption that you are not CODA or a hearing person fluent in sign is correct (im a newer follower, sorry lol but i do really like your stuff so far and think your "Felt World" comic is fantastic! i just also know very little about you lmao rip), and if you do not have a fluent person in sign to use as a sinilar resource as Yuki is stellarly used in "A Sign Of Affection", i think a conlang is probably the best option for you? i definitely think it might of help to go to some reddit threads with prominent deaf people who use sign to recruit one or a few beta-reader/sensitivity-reader as a resource. bonus if they like conlangs and are willing to help you develop one. or are willing to translate their fluency for you so you know what diction translation is available for your character's dialogue + to film their signs for you to use as a reference. i originally found you through your tiktok, so it might be helpful to formally recruit there through a short video and tag it appropriately to reach out to the deaf and signing community for that type of beta-reader/sensitivity-reader/possible-translator/possible-conlang-help-resource person

my last piece of advice towards finding resources is you might find more information here on tumblr under the tag "writing deaf characters". i think(?) that's the tag people use to discuss how to depict deaf characters, though that is not sign-language specific in the sense of how to depict sign-language in fantasy. you'd probably have to scroll to find posts on that. but it should give you resources of people saying "this is my advice for writing a deaf character as someone who is deaf" who you could then reach out to for more specific questions, resource-help, and whatnot

finally, i know you said "there is *A* deaf character" in your post, but i do want to hesitantly implore you to include that said character as being a part of a deaf community. so having other characters around them also be deaf. it is very unusual, from what i understand, for a deaf character to be the ONLY deaf person they know or that they willingly surround themselves with. the deaf community is very close-knit to the point of people actually all having two names: they have a sign-name as well as their name used in conversation with hearing people. community and solidarity is extremely common with deafness. community is huge part of the deaf culture. being the only deaf character would only make some sense if that character is purposefully alienated from others (think Toph from "Avatar: The Last Airbender"'s family situation, tho she is blind, not deaf) but even then: they had to learn their fluency with sign language from SOMEWHERE and used it often with those people (and this sign language had to get popularized into having a standardization by... like... having a lot of people use it, which would only happen if a lot of people NEEDED it, which means there has to be a significant deaf community lmao). this is especially true if the equivalent-of-face-timing isn't possible in "Felt World" (as video-calls are the predominant form of long-distance communication that accomadates sign); if long-distance communication isn't possible between people who use sign language, they go for proximity (hence there being schools to facilitate deaf community and communication). this can then cause "accents" so to speak (there's even records of families of deaf people having their own family-signs and "accents" in addition to region-based). this is best noticed in how, in the USA, there actually isn't just one form of sign-language originated from here. which, yes, there are multiple "English-associated" sign-languages (i think the most famous trio are ASL, BSL, and SSE to non-Americans?? but there are even more "English-associated" sign languages than that and i'm not talking about any of those rn, but rather the fact that ASL is not the only sign language to originate from the United States of America). i'm talking about how, due to the segregation of Black people in schools, there is BASL (Black American Sign Language). community matters so much to deaf people that something as dividing as segregation resulted in two totally different forms of sign. and even though schools are no longer segregated, that history has lead to two different origins of language that the descendents of which have little to very little overlap now as distinct "accents" from what i understand as someone who uses neither forms of sign (and it should go with saying that many Black deaf people in America have to be fluent in not only English and also ASL, in addition to BASL, in order to gain accommodations in classrooms that are not at a BASL School. it is unfortunate that such a hurdle exists and i greatly admire Black deaf people and their preservation of BASL, as well as anyone hearing who signs BASL to help translate for Black deaf people in their first language so there are less hoops for Black deaf people to jump through. but i digress). so, again, deaf people being surrounded by other deaf people either through technology-that-accomadates-sign or proximity is HUGE. so i would say at MINIMUM introduce this one character as having access to a community of background characters who are also deaf and sign, in addition to hearing people who sign. that insistence you ensure there is a community of deaf characters in this world (if not having multiple deaf recurring characters or main characters) probably goes without saying? i probably didnt need to say all this. but im erring on the side of caution since i feel a bit on thin-ice as a non-sign-language-user speaking here to begin with lol

but yeah! again, i dont know sign so this is me parroting things i have learned from the deaf community about how they prefer sign be utilized (this isn't even approaching the topic of cochlear implants, as that can be seen as controversal to some deaf circles and fine to other deaf circles within the overall community) and giving you the leads i can currently recall having been useful to me when i realized i had a curiosity about how to best utalize sign in fantasy settings (im sure i once used more but i have alas forgotten them, as this post even shows in how i dont remember where to cite certain ideas to). definitely defer to people who know sign, especially those who are deaf, over me as i am not within that portion of the hoh/deaf community as a whole. but i digress. i hope this is helpful, and i wish you and your comic the best of luck! much love ♡

Ah fuck it this is gonna be a spoiler but I genuinely can't figure out what the right course of action is so here goes...

SO THERE'S A DEAF CHARACTER IN FELT WORLD who uses sign to communicate. (Don't speculate, it'll be revealed, but don't make assumptions just in case it isn't who you thought it was and you end up disappointed)

My question is; do I pick American Sign Language, Swedish Sign Language, or do I make up a fictive Sign Language?

My arguments for all:

ASL: the comic is written in American English

SSL: I'm from Sweden, and there are tons of Swedish references in felt world

Fictive SL: would be much easier from a production stand point

What are y'all's input? I'd love to hear especially if you're deaf/heard of hearing and using sign yourself. Thanks in advance!!

#felt world #me #elviraaxen #deafness #deaf #sign language #conlang #conlangs #writing deaf characters #long post #to be clear: BASL has since mixed with ASL to have overlap. but its origins dont #(at least from what i understand. as usualy: im not an expert)#edit: i woke up in a sweat going WAIT WHAT IF I MISREMEMBERED ''A SIGN OF AFFECTION''S SPEECH BUBBLES AND I DIIIIDDD #THEY DONT USE THE SAME SPEECH BUBBLES WHEN CHARACTERS ARE SIGNING VS WHEN THEY ARE NOT #to be fair tho. their choice does make sense since a large part of the story is about the language barriers of a deaf person who #uses sign falling in love with a hearing person who has never used sign before. so. a visual distinction of that barrier makes sense #buT STILL. I WAS INCORRECT. THE PASSAGE IS NOW EDITED CORRECTLY. IVE HEARD PREFERENCE FOR SAME SPEECH BUBBLES #THE MOST IN MY SPHERE OF THE INTERNET. SO IM STICKING WITH IT. FUCK IM SO GLAD I CAUGHT THAT #anyway deaf people feel free to disagree with the same speech bubble sentiment. idk if what ive heard in a widespread opinion that includes #my sphere of the internet or is JUST my sphere. who knows. im doing my best to give leads; i am no expert lmao rip #also. this whole post makes it seem like i am head over heels in love with A Sign Of Affection lmao and i do LIKE IT but like #gahh i just cabt get over this one scene the male love interest says about romanticizing that ''she has never heard evil'' like. sir. wtf #how infantalizing. bleh. she literally faces discrimination in the same chapter (aka: evils). i hope thats an arc for him and that he gets #a faceful of reality or a smack upside the head like. no. wtf. but otherwise it is a great manga and i do like the male love interest lmao #anyway. CHRONIC MEMORY LOSS + APHANTASIA + A LACK OF VISUAL MEMORY SUCKS. im so glad it finally occurred to me to double-check myself ugh

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