#arya jon sansa dany brienne all of them represent that

[daecaerys]

META , 𝑫𝑨𝑬𝑵𝑬𝑹𝒀𝑺' 𝑻𝑯𝑬 𝑨𝑵𝑻𝑰-𝑷𝑹𝑶𝑷𝑯𝑬𝑻, 𝑻𝑯𝑬 𝑨𝑵𝑻𝑰-𝑴𝑬𝑺𝑺𝑰𝑨𝑯, 𝑻𝑯𝑬 𝑯𝑼𝑴𝑨𝑵 𝑸𝑼𝑬𝑬𝑵: often talking with @ruingod and the tropes around characters, i realized how of an antithesis dany is to the common messianic trope ( unlike paul who absorbs himself in it to gain power ) and since recently there has been going on a discussion about it as if she's the same trope as his ( sigh ), i decided to come here and express my opinions ( which are just that, opinions and interpretations ). well, daenerys does not see herself as anything but a queen, a ruler, and she views it as a duty and not a priviledge. she sees ruling ad a responsability to protect those around her ( coming from the sense that she often wasn't protected ), and does not use their dependance on her and their views of her figure as means to create prophercies or even propaganda about her rule. she never sees herself as above her people, as their savior, but a member of their reality/society with the power of bringing change. daenerys did not conquer the free cities to gain numbers to battle, or to rule them with her iron first of ideals ( in fact, one of her issues is that she did not count with that part and is falling under creating her own ruling ). daenerys conquered the cities to free the slaved and their oppression. she had no need to do it either, with enough gold and ships to sail to westeros before doing so.

there's no questioning that daenerys is doing what she does because she believes in the good, not in vengeance, not out of need for power. she's there to serve the oppressed, and not the opposite. she's not their messiah. there's a reason why mhysa resonates with her: she's mother, she's freeing, amidst the fear of being the opposite due to her roots ( remember the valyrians were slavers themselves ). like dragons, there's no cruel inner nature. there's the singular thing: dany is good. intrisically. she struggles in understandig that good intentions do not make a good realm - it only, sometimes, makes it weak. and to be ruthless to protect those she swore to protect is what makes her shake in fear of becoming entirelly ruthless. losing herself. becoming what people believe dragons to be: monsters, and monsters only.

daenerys does not use speech to gain support. her actions did so, and she did not do them out of the selfish reason: yes, this will have me be their queen. i'll become their god. no, dany did it because she loathed to see such suffering. she acted out of her heart. when she freed the unsullied she did not do it knowing they would follow her afterwards, nor when she fred drogo's slaves. their freedom was theirs, just like hers was hers. they followed her because they saw it as just that, someone worth it, someone who did it because it was right, and not someone who used them.

her iron throne goal becomes secondary in her mind as she decides to stay in mereen to keep things under control. to not let those people back in chains and in even more pain before she met them. if she wanted just to control them, dany would become the tyrant that season 8 wants you to see her as. she'd burn her enemies, and make others follow her with the disguise of being their savior. make them cross the sea and fight in her name only. she'd be flawless before their eyes, she'd see herself as flawless, she'd see herself as righteous. daenerys does not do it, in any moment. she constantly does what sacrifice is needed to help others and not herself. staying in mereen is proof of that, still, we constantly read she's a selfish person who only does what she does out of greed. when speaking of paul, for example, and the parallels, it is just a mirror of different perspectives of similar situations. one leaning towards the opressed for power, and the other leaning towards power to help the opressed.

[whateverthedragonswant]

So I keep rewatching that Tyrion and Sansa scene in the crypts before they go to save the others, over and over again. It's such an emotionally intimate moment between them but I for the life of me could never figure out why they cut the Tyrion and Sansa fight scene (while keeping Emilia's requested Dany fighting scene in) even though they shot it. Perhaps it was due to time constraints as some had suggested when the episode aired but if that's the case then why did they keep Arya's line of "Stick 'em with the pointy end" to Sansa in? Why did they not cut out the part of the Sansa and Tyrion scene where she's the first to draw out her weapon? That plot point for Sansa's story in this episode (as well as Tyrion's), especially when connected with "None of us can do anything, that's why we're down here. It's the truth. The bravest thing we can do now is look the truth in the face", literally leads to nowhere without that fight scene (meaning in connection to her fighting for her people & to save them). "I'm not abandoning my people." But looking at it in a big picture and semi-abstract way, I do wonder if perhaps it was cut because it was done to be one of the many things they decided to hide for Dany's eventual dark turn. Hear me out.

The reason I say that is because right before we see this scene with Sansa and Tyrion (hiding behind the tomb), we see Jon's run through Winterfell to get to Bran. And what do we see?

We see Gendry and Tormund fighting together. We see Sam in trouble as he's fighting that Jon makes the decision to continue no matter how much you can see he hates to do it. We see Grey Worm fighting (alone). We then see Jaime and Brienne fighting together (and even though we don't see it in this shot, we know from a later shot that Podrick is with them fighting as well). The only enemy at that point is the WW.

Not to mention, before Jon's run, we see Dany alone, by herself, saved in the nick of time by Jorah (from her retinue). They are cut off from everyone else and both fight, but Jorah eventually dies.

In the scene after Jon's run, we see Theon fighting alongside Alys Karstark (though we don't see her in a shot, we know she's there from an earlier shot) and their soldiers to protect Bran.

Then we come to the Tyrion and Sansa scene.

So you have Dany (South-Targaryen) and Jorah (North-Mormont but also South because he is part of Dany's retinue & goes where she goes). Then a Baratheon (even though he's not legitimized yet he's still a Baratheon) and a Widling fighting together (aka South and North). Then Sam (North-The Wall and South-Tarly). Then Grey Worm by himself (not of Westeros; part of Dany's retinue). Then Jaime (South-Lannister), Brienne (South but also North because she's protecting Sansa or more appropriately, going from South to North), and Podrick (same). Theon (both South and North-both Greyjoy and Stark -> ends as a Stark-North) and Alys (North) protecting Bran (who ends up as the 6K King in the end). Then Sansa (North-Stark) and Tyrion (South-Lannister).

You literally have the house names we recognize in Westeros that are left at this point in time being represented (as well as the Wildlings) and they are all fighting up North, alongside everyone else, and fighting for survival against this terrifyingly dangerous enemy. The only houses that are cut off from everyone else are Targaryen and Mormont (the same house that gets ended this episode), and is it any wonder they have Jon running by himself (when he doesn't know who he is yet)? Not being completely cut off but also not fighting alongside anyone else though he wants to but only has one mission in mind aka protecting Bran/killing the NK?

Put all of that together plus this scene:

(there is so much going on in this scene but the part I'm talking about is where Missandei has her reaction to what Sansa says & then walks away, alone -> we know Varys wasn't blindly devoted to Dany despite being part of her retinue & after Jorah is gone, Varys is the one to start voicing his doubts to Tyrion & the audience)

And then I remembered this scene from 8x04:

Dany is not happy overhearing Tormund praising Jon for not only something she herself has done but she's also feeling threatened now that she knows who Jon is (which is confirmed by the dialogue in the bedroom scene after this). But Jon (regardless of his dual heritage) is sitting with the Wildlings and previously Sansa was there as well (Stark). Then Dany sees Tyrion laughing and enjoying himself with Brienne, Podrick, and Jaime. We know that Dany views Jaime as an enemy and that had Jon (and Sansa) not decided to recruit Jaime rather than execute him, he would be Dracarys'd already. Brienne is the one who spoke up in defense of Jaime (plus remember that whole line from Dany to Tyrion back in 8x02 of "Perhaps because he knows his brother will defend him right up to the moment he slits my throat"?) that led to Sansa's decision that then led to Jon's. Pod is with Brienne. Sure enough, Dany then looks back at Jon and Tormund/the Wildlings again before getting up to leave. We also see Varys notice not all is well.

And then:

This is not the first time Cersei has been unable to have Tyrion killed after she is Queen. They make sure to show us Dany's reaction to this (and even Euron's). They even made sure to show us how intent Dany is while waiting to see what happens (and to show us Grey Worm looking over at her briefly so the audience will make sure to focus on her if they're not already). Dany is initially not pleased and looks almost angry but also not surprised or relieved. A small glimmer of hope (maybe for Missandei's release?) mixed with confusion (maybe because she's wondering what Cersei is up to?) follows after. But the anger was already shown. Even Euron is surprised and appears unsure why Cersei spared Tyrion. (Euron, the lone Greyjoy in contrast to Theon being with the Starks, who is only with Cersei for a certain reason; Cersei being the lone Lannister; Dany being the lone Targaryen because Jon has the Starks in the first half of the season & Dany never truly trusts him after she finds out the truth about him)

The thing is, while Cersei and Dany share many parallels (and I would even argue that certain aspects of the Mad Queen narrative are split between them leading up to their endgames which proves they are anything but mad), in the end, Cersei did not give up on her family. "Everyone who isn't us is an enemy." No matter how much she hated Tyrion or felt betrayed by Jaime, they were there for her in the end (in their own ways) and she couldn't swing the sword on either of them so to speak. Which is interesting given that she did not fight with the others at Winterfell (or send her army to fight) and didn't care about the one thing that mattered: survival. She had no issue with others killing Tyrion or Jaime (for example, the trial of Joffrey's murder; sending Bronn up North with a crossbow with their names on it - though for this one I'd argue she knew that Bronn would most likely be talked out of it since Jaime met with Tyrion in secret; Jaime choosing to go North to fight which he very well might not have come back from & she knew it since she saw the WW threat was real, etc.), but when it was at her command, in front of her, she never took the opportunity. And Jaime you could understand as her twin, her lover, but there was no reason for Tyrion. Except that they were family, no matter how much she may have despised him, or he her. Even when he killed Tywin; even when he joined Dany and came with her to Westeros; even when Cersei makes it clear that she knows exactly what Dany is to Tyrion.

So even though Cersei didn't care about anyone else and she didn't fight for anyone else (and she certainly wasn't a benevolent queen), she still cared for her brothers on some small level because they were the Lannister trio (as well as being in love with Jaime for many years and only trusting him). So not fighting with them but still...a part of them. Especially when you compare it to the Starks and Jon, and then Jon and Dany as the Last Two Targaryens.

So my whole long point is I wonder why if they cut that scene out not just for possible time constraints but also to help contribute to keeping the point of Dany's dark turn hidden.

Because you have a Stark and a Lannister working together to save people as well as each of their lives (and families by extension).

Which very well echoes the ending episode in where Bran becomes King and he makes Tyrion his Hand. "He's going to fix what he broke." And there are no Targaryens left alive (minus Jon who is banished/exiled, not an accident btw) or in power. The Targaryens have been removed completely from the map as well as from any kind of power in the world.

So I wonder if in a roundabout way, that's why this particular scene was removed. I could be completely wrong and I'm just thinking out loud here, but given the scene's removal after it was filmed when there were other gratuitous shots from that episode that could have been removed to help those time constraints, something just isn't jiving if that's the actual reason. Especially since they introduced that plot point for Sansa in the episode and it never came to fruition. (knowing D&D, I think they thought that scene between Sansa and Tyrion was enough, as well as showing us the moment the Crypt Wights were destroyed by the NK's death and us seeing Sansa and Tyrion right there in front of anyone else, knives in hand - sigh)

[aboveallarescuer]

I love that Daenerys Targaryen has significant parallels with all the major ASOIAF characters (as well as with many of the minor and the historical ones too). I love that comparing and contrasting her with them almost always highlights her epicness and/or how special her place in the narrative is.

Daenerys Targaryen is not just a queen, she’s a queen regnant and Lord of the Seven Kingdoms, i.e., a she-king. This means that she can be compared and contrasted not only with Cersei and Margaery or with Alysanne and the other Targaryen queens consort, but also (in fact, especially) with Stannis and Robb or with Aegon the Conqueror and the other Targaryen monarchs that succeeded him.

Daenerys Targaryen is not just a claimant to the Iron Throne like Stannis, Young Griff and Renly, she’s the only one of them who is a POV character.

Daenerys Targaryen is not just one of the POV rulers, she also happens to be the only POV ruler with power in her own right and who isn’t in a subservient position in any way (Jon is Lord Commander, but he’s also the king’s advisor and is running the equivalent of a penal colony, so the stakes are much lower than Daenerys ruling a city and dealing with opposition from half the world; Tyrion and Ned are Hands of the King; Cersei is queen regent, which means that her power stems from Tommen’s kingship). Also, Daenerys has the clearest parallels with Aragorn and her ADWD storyline was deliberately written by GRRM as a response to the lack of information from Tolkien about what makes Aragorn a good king. Finally, if one compares her ADWD storyline with Jon’s, one can see how many roles she occupies at the same time: the administrator (Jon), the monarch (Stannis), the most magical character linked to fire and prophecies (Melisandre) and the leader of the disenfranchised (Mance; note that Daenerys was forced to leave her homeland, was enslaved and currently doesn’t belong anywhere - that’s the exact same situation of many of the former slaves of Slaver’s Bay, who come from different places and have different races, ethnicities and backgrounds. Daenerys empathized with them right away because she is one of them. Her detractors may accuse her of being an outsider, but that’s because they prioritize the viewpoint of the Ghiscari slavers. The freedmen, like Daenerys, come from many different places and are outsiders to the noblemen too).

Daenerys Targaryen is an extraordinary conqueror and strategist. Aegon the Conqueror made the Westerosi bend the knee with the help of his dragons, 15-year-old Daenerys Targaryen overthrew the slave masters primarily thanks to her own battle plans, not her dragons. Robb Stark captured castles in the westerlands motivated by personal injury and his actions had local impact; Daenerys Targaryen conquered three cities motivated by her desire to abolish slavery and her actions had worldwide impact.

Daenerys Targaryen is not a typical member of her family, she is the main leader and representative of House Targaryen in a way that Jon/Bran/Arya/Sansa or Cersei/Jaime/Tyrion can’t ever claim to be. Their fathers Ned Stark and Tywin Lannister had large roles in the main story and, in the Starks’ case, their older brother Robb is more well-remembered than any of them (at least so far). Meanwhile, Daenerys’s father Aerys II was already dead before she was born and before the main story began, which allowed her to carve her own path outside of his influence. Moreover, her accomplishments are already greater than both of her older brothers’. She became the face of her family in a way that matches (in fact, even surpasses) Ned with House Stark and Tywin with House Lannister.

Daenerys Targaryen is not a typical mother, she’s both Mother of Dragons and Mhysa. Her motherhood is transcendental in a way that Catelyn’s or Cersei’s aren’t because it is not related to blood ties or to her fertility. Instead, it’s associated with her unprecedented feat of reviving an extinct species, with her ability to make up the magic as she goes along, with her leadership, with her revolutionary nature, with her compassion for thousands of people. Additionally, unlike the other major mothers, Daenerys is the only one who isn’t doomed to go “mad” despite all the losses and hardships she faced.

Daenerys Targaryen is a hero, which is especially clear when her actions are contrasted with House Stark’s, whose brand of “heroism” has been mostly to react to personal injury so far. Ned Stark participated in Robert's Rebellion because his father and brother were killed. Ned’s son Robb wanted Northern independence because his father was killed. Ned’s vassals want to start another war in the name of the Starks because of their loyalty and their outrage about the Red Wedding. Their motivations, sympathetic as they may be, have never involved the commoners. In contrast, GRRM had Daenerys empathize with the former slaves, start a war in their name and abolish slavery despite them not being associated with her through oath of fealty or blood relations or lands. She was specifically singled out by the author as the one leader who “wants equality for everyone”. It’s a stark contrast (pun intended) to the actions of the main family (at least as a unit) of the story. Sadly, it’s easier (for some fans) to root for the heroes mostly reacting to personal injury who never made any mistakes of large scale consequences since they never got to be in authority. Or for the heroes fighting against ice zombies (though, to be fair, Jon haven’t even faced them in ADWD, his main challenge was to conciliate the Free Folk and the Night’s Watch, so the stakes of his storyline are much lower when one compares his problems with Dany dealing with enemies from all over Essos raising armies to defeat her). It’s harder to do the same with the hero who takes an active stance against social injustices and who wrestles with hard questions about when political violence is justified (which never have easy, clear-cut answers) and all the negative ramifications that come with them.

Oh, and have I mentioned that Daenerys Targaryen is the character with the most overt clues of being Azor Ahai/Prince That Was Promised/Stallion Who Mounts the World? Like with the birth of the dragons, uniting all the khalasars and then leading humanity to victory against the Others will be two more unparalleled feats of hers among the characters of the current timeline. Additionally, as she becomes surrounded and influenced by prophecies, we get to see how Daenerys has a healthy relationship with them in contrast to other characters like Cersei and Stannis.

All these attributes and accomplishments are made even more remarkable when one contrasts them with what doesn’t necessarily make Daenerys Targaryen unique. Yes, Daenerys became the most powerful person in her world, but she also lived in poverty among lowborn people without the privilege of a castle or a formal education, which lends itself to comparisons with Davos and Melisandre. Yes, Daenerys is a queen, but she’s also a young girl who loves songs and stories and idealizes her family members, which lends itself to comparisons with Arya, Brienne and Sansa. Yes, Daenerys is a loving, compassionate mother, but she was also raised by her abuser throughout all of her formative years, which lends itself to comparisons with dysfunctional families like the Lannisters, the Greyjoys and the Cleganes. And so on.

Daenerys Targaryen has a very special place in the narrative, which I think should be acknowledged not only to appreciate her character, but also to understand why GRRM chose to isolate her from everyone else. Why would GRRM be confident that his readers would still be interested in Daenerys despite the fact that she doesn’t interact with any of his other major characters for most of the story? Is it merely because of her dragons, as her detractors say?

No.

It’s because, as the list above showed, Daenerys’s narrative importance and accomplishments are unmatched. They had to be. Daenerys’s character and storyline had to be connected to pretty much everyone else’s in significant, thematic ways in order for her to earn an entire continent, as well as her place as the Fire of ASOIAF. That is why Daenerys is guaranteed to have a major role in all the three main plotlines of ASOIAF. That is why Daenerys is so iconic and represents this book series in a way that no individual Stark could ever do. That is why Daenerys has to be so many things at the same time: a POV character and a claimant to the Iron Throne, a mother and the main representative of her family, the most powerful person in her world and a former slave, a ruler and a conqueror, a she-king and a young girl, quite possibly the story’s main hero and savior. That no other ASOIAF character can come close to her narrative importance or to her in-universe accomplishments is kind of the point because Daenerys had to encompass everything that is great about ASOIAF in order to carry her own storyline. And I'm excited for TWOW because, as she moves closer to Westeros, her importance will only increase more and more.

Daenerys Targaryen is like fine wine. She gets better and better the more time passes, the more you think about her and the more you realize how all the other ASOIAF storylines somehow lead back to hers. Dany’s storyline almost always looks that much more epic and greater in comparison to them because she carries her storyline on her own, so the author had to make sure she caught our attention.

[mouthlessmaiden]

ok so grrm has quite a few canon lgbt characters and a vast majority of them are extremely well done, both in terms of properly and respectfully representing lgbt characters and also just as like. characters in general. however, a LOT of his non-canon lgbt characters come across VERY strongly as lgbt in such an interesting and nuanced way that i’ve noticed largely only other lgbt people pick up on immediately.

we have instances of comphet shown by sansa (please read this amazing meta by @jeynearrynofthevale because everything i could say about lesbian sansa she brings up in this meta)

jaime thinking back on characters such as arthur dayne, ned stark, and brynden tully in ways that would have been interpreted as lovelorn by the reddit/forum crowds had they been about women

cersei struggling with sexuality and gender dysphoria, compiled wonderfully in this meta by @translannisters

jon’s feelings of otherness from his siblings and his desperation to belong - and of course “this is what a king should look like”, his thoughts on satin, and the now famous “boy, pet, whore”

stannis’ distaste for sex with selyse (you can read this as him being asexual or gay or both!)

alleras being non-binary in the citadel

being GNC doesn’t make you lgbt, but both arya and brienne’s experiences with conforming to the gender binary can be read as them being non-binary (and i do believe both of them are no binary)

there’s also the identity arcs that a majority of characters go through that reflect heavily on the experience of a majority of lgbt youth. questions like “who am i?” and “do i belong here?” are extremely common among lgbt youth figuring themselves out, and those questions are scattered thoroughly and with tact throughout the arcs of characters like theon, sansa, arya, jon, jaime, brienne, dany, and more that i’ve probably forgotten to mention.

all of these are things that come off almost immediately to lgbt readers, but can fly over the heads of cishet readers. it’s so interesting to me that a lot of these characters come across as repressed lgbt individuals in such an accurate and nuanced way that it’s often only visible to lgbt people who have experienced similar things. i’m almost entirely sure it’s unintentional as well, which is...something, but i’m not totally sure what to make of it.

basically lgbt (canon or not) asoiaf characters my beloveds ❤️

[esther-dot]

Dany and Drogo called each other 'sun and stars' and 'moon of life'. But their relationship is neither meaningful nor loveable. Ned called Arya and Sansa as sun and moon describing their different characters they still are same and he loved them. Brienne had sigil of 'sun and moon' who is on mission to find stark girls and honour her oath to Cat. Dany is associated with moon because of her hair and it's not positive for Jon as he felt cold watching Val whose hair turned silver in moonlight.

Understanding the symbolism in ASOIAF is so difficult (to me) because it seems to mean different, contradictory things, depending on the character/context.

Here is one interpretation of the moon:

The moon is a feminine symbol, universally representing the rhythm of time as it embodies the cycle. The phases of the moon symbolize immortality and eternity, enlightenment or the dark side of Nature herself. It might reflect inner knowledge, or the phases of man's condition on earth, since it controls the tides, the rains, the waters, and the seasons. It is the middle ground between the light of the sun and the darkness of night, and thus often represents the realm between the conscious and the unconscious. In astrology, the moon is a symbol of the soul, and in the horoscope it determines the subject's capacity for reflection and adaptation. It also provides analogy for the stages of human development: the new moon is infancy, the crescent is youth and adolescence, the full moon is maturity and pregnancy, and the waning moon represents the decline of life, sleep. (link)

That's an interesting line there in relation to Dany and her inability to look back. And here is another interpretation of the moon that is very similar to what you point out in Jon's relationship to the moon/Val/Dany:

Symbols can be "universal" or "local" to a particular poem and its context, or both. For example, the moon is a universal symbol of love. However, in Percy Bysshe Shelley’s poem "To the Moon," the moon represents fatigue, alienation, loneliness, useless labor and unrequited love. While the "universal" symbol still holds, the "local" symbol is more nuanced.

To the Moon by Percy Bysshe Shelley Art thou pale for weariness Of climbing heaven, and gazing on the earth, Wandering companionless Among the stars that have a different birth,— And ever-changing, like a joyless eye That finds no object worth its constancy? Here, the moon is a complex symbol, invoking paleness, weariness, loneliness, useless unrewarded toil, unrewarded constancy and unrequited love. (link)

The author is right that depending on the poem/book, the moon (or anything) will have a different meaning, and it seems that Martin really likes to examine the good and the bad aspects of everything. Ned mentions the good versions with Sansa and Arya, the Sun and Moon. It’s interesting to me that Sansa doesn’t seem to be the moon in ASOIAF because that is so firmly entrenched in lit as feminine. And yet, here is how the sun is described:

The sun is the absolute cosmic power; it is the universal FATHER, while the MOON is the universal MOTHER; it is often symbolized by the WHEEL or the disk, a CIRCLE or a BALL; it is the center of being and intuition, it is knowledge and warmth, glory and splendour. (link)

I think what we can gather from these (even if Martin isn't working within these exact interpretations) is the idea that Sansa will rule in the end as she is the great light, and having that masculine association...I think it means she will hold the power that in their society which is usually given to men. And the sun is the means by which all things grow, it makes life possible, so although the moon (Dany) is associated with "the mother" we know she is primarily the mother of dragons (oppression/violence/death), whereas Sansa will be the mother of people.

The association between the sun/moon and Sansa/Arya might to be related to this:

(link) because several of those lines sound like Sansa-y.

The fact that Brienne has both moon and sun seems to remind us of Martin’s interest in duality. Sansa and Arya are opposites, but they do not necessarily need to be oppositional, as Ned was trying to explain. They should exist in harmony, if only they will learn how. Brienne is the character who is perhaps the most balanced between the dualities that Martin loves (sun/moon, love/hate, war/peace etc) which may be why both appear on her shield.

Thank you for the message!

[hollowwhisperings]

My memories on the Starks & Lannisters of the Dance are very hazy, largely amounting to "Lannister Turncloaks, Starks were Team Black, Cregan Stark Scared KL into Lawful Neutrality". So while I can't add onto the Generational Parallels, I CAN see Other Character Parallels:

Jaime Lannister is in a VERY SIMILAR POSITION to Ser Criston Cole: Jaime, as a Knight Nerd, WOULD KNOW THIS.

HotD's portrayal of the Dance as a Lesbian Divorce Drama has blessed us with Alicent Hightower as the "Anti-Cersei": women who fulfil nigh-identical functions within the narrative (as-history-remembers it) but for very opposite reasons.

Daenerys is the easiest "Rhaenyra" but Daenerys isn't there for the War of the Five Kings: she's Busy Elsewhere.

The "Rhaenyra" role is not as neatly found as her contemporary "Criston" (Jaime), "Alicent" (Cersei) & "Aegon II" (Joffrey) counterparts but, overall, it's actually Ned Stark who fulfils her "role" as Rallying Point for ASOIAF's "Team Black". That Ned is a secretly treasonous dead man hilariously makes him even more suited to be the "Rhaenyra" of this latest Civil War, Martyrs of History as won by the war's sole survivors (AKA Ned's kids & his belatedly reformed enemies).

Ned was also (kind of?) Jaime's personal Cregan Stark at the end of [Ned's] Rebellion, the civil war prior to TWOTFK (which is technically Still Happening), and Dany is more accurately represented in that war (...as its Absent Viserys II).

Jaime, lifelong Knight Nerd, knows well the eerie resemblance he has taken to Ser Criston Cole: abetter in unlawful succession, Commander of the sitting Queen Dowager's armies but having sworn loyalty to the opposing Queen Dowager (Catelyn). In some ways, Jaime can be made into a contemporary Prince Daemon with Cersei as King Rhaenyra: this aligns with the Maesters' view of the Dance but HotD's Take on Alicent Hightower as the Anti-Cersei makes me enjoy how much she & Cersei have "Functioned" within the narratives of their Respective Succession Crises (i.e. starting & perpetuating them) and thusly members of "Team Green".

Jaime's character development has not actually gotten to "redemption" yet but his having one would drastically affect how this civil war will end: Bran vibes very much as a "Viserys II" (second sons long assumed dead, hope spots to their few surviving family members) though most of the surviving Starklings could (or already have) acted as Historic Peacemakers between Long Estraged Peoples.

Jon made peace between the NW & the freefolk, only to Die Mysteriously; Arya makes friends with anyone & everyone who is considered an "outsider" or "lesser class"; marriage to Sansa Stark is one of the easiest ways to unite Kingdoms, providing her existing [child] marriage to Tyrion is annulled); Bran or Jon could feasibly "resolve" the Conflict between the Others & everyone else peacibly (hopefully without twin marriage pacts between Ruling Families, given that all the Starklings save Jon are children).

Given how implicitly connected Jaime's Future is to that of Bran's, his "role" as Criston Cole will play out very differently (if only in Motivation) and that's without accounting for how Fellow Knight Nerd, Brienne, is implicitly tied to the Stark Sisters: Jaime and Brienne would both Know the precedents set in the Dance by Ser Criston (for good & ill); how devastating his Kingmaking was on the Realm & for such a unanimously misliked King; and how easily the children left surviving can & would be used by Lords scrambling for power upon most of their Political Competition wiping each other out. Brienne's surviving Winds would require Jaime to Start Redeeming Himself more seriously, lest her experiences turn her into another jaded "Sandor" (which Jaime, who sees his Younger & Innocent Self in Brienne, does not actually want).

Ultimately, the amount of intergenerational parallels of abuse & violence in ASOIAF, alongside its Thesis of "War Is Horrific", make it likely that this generation of Lannisters and Starks and "Targaryens" will Learn from the mistakes of their predecessors & actively "end" these Cycles of violence. Melting The Uncomfortable Chair seems a given but it's the Logistics of recovery that most interest me: Jaime is likely to be the Oldest Person at any peace talks (give or take Doran, the Blackfish, a Sand Snake or two, some of Robb's Loyalists, etc) having been "Too Unlucky To Die", and being Punished to Live, do Community Service & Babysit the survivors of his enemies.

In contrast, Tyrion seems very, very difficult to Redeem: he started as a "good guy", his traumas & his power grabs leading him further past Moral Ambiguity and into Gleeful Villainy. Tyrion's pride would have to suffer a horrific fall or his "success" come at an awful price (e.g. baby Tommen's life &/or King's Landing, a fellow Outcast he Actually Likes being gratuitously [Fridged], "reuniting" with his Even More Traumatised Child Bride & her Inevitable Rejection of him bc CHILD BRIDE).

Tyrion is an Adult in this setting, just like Jaime or Jorah or Jon Connington: they all have Fixations that drive them, traumas that shaped them, varyingly valid justifications for villainy (i am looking at YOU, Jorah)... and they are all have had (or are being set up to hold) Power over much younger characters, orphaned & desperately seeking a Mentor who won't Betray nor Attempt Romance With Them.

Cersei has never been "redeemable" (RIP Melara Hetherspoon) but she is capable of Genuine Goodness... probably (unintentionally? she's a Narcissist: selfless heroics is not her strong suit). I'm uncertain how willing she would be to "change" her "fate" as The Anti-Alicent in a Dance/2nd Conquest/Long Night/War of ?? Queens. Maybe she'll accept Myrcella as her "younger, more beautiful" usurper & realise she Doomed Herself (& countless others but pshht, Lions Care Not The Wellbeing Of [Antelopes]).

Hopefully Bran will be an Anti-Brynden - I made a meta post on "Jojen is Fine, Actually" but its focus was on all the ways Bran is being made into a new Brynden, his only Escape requiring External Influences (Meera with a Lighter; Jojen with Big Sad Eyes; Suddenly A Benjen; un/dead Jon or Catelyn; Meera with a flamethrower; realising he's eating Brynden Paste & that he keeps Breaking Those Taboos Man Must Never Break; Meera with a flintstone axe AND a lighter, etc). Uh. Meera is Kind Of Essential to the survival of Team Cave Kids? Bran just needs to Recognise that & stop seeing her as his Designated Love Interest (she's considered an Adult in their setting, being of age with Jon, & Bran isn't even 10 yet) but his Designated Adult. Meera's motivation is Jojen, Jojen's is Bran, Bran's was "flying" but then the Tree Cult started giving him narcotic Brynden Paste... it's little wonder GRRM is putting off Winds: his lack of Timeskip has severely limited his options in getting the primary cast within each other's geography, let alone realising their common plotlines.

Coldhands, Suddenly A Benjen, Ghost, Melissandre or Suddenly A Giant/Mammoth are kind of GRRM's only options to get Team Cave Kids out of slow & eldritch deaths. If Dany somehow beats Bran to Westeros, I would struggle to understand how he had even survived that long with the Tree Cult. It would be like Arya actually choosing to stay with the Murder Cult instead of Literally Any Alternative Safe Haven (my silver's on Sam, stopping over at Braavos post/mid-Euronpocalypse).

...but, uh, yes. PARALLELS. Ned would be hyperventilating at all his kids getting cast as Targaryens & at the Kingslayer being positioned to be a Criston Cole in their general direction.

JAIME LANNISTER ENDGAME SPECULATION: #2, "Jaime Goldenhand"

~ DEFINITELY spoilers, both book & That Dragon Show, and some diving into other theories in the ASOIAF theory iceberg ~

2. Jaime "Golden Hand"

- for Jaime's sins, he is "rewarded" with what he has always dreaded but has already demonstrated relative competence at: responsibility.

- We Don't Talk About The Dragon Show but its ending for Tyrion actually steals much from what has been foreshadowed for Jaime: Jaime, who has never wanted nor sought out any power save his sword arm, WOULD feel punished by a sentence of lifelong service to The Realm. His most heroic act made him reviled: his kingslaying was the beginnings of his blatantly undermining the stability of Westeros by cuckolding its king, causing a lasting succession crisis, and unwittingly stirring the winds of war in his recklessness & ignorance.

- furthermore, Jaime serving as BRAN STARK'S Hand? tbh, "King Bran" punishing Jaime by installing him as his Hand not only fits all the foreshadowing in their respective character arcs, it ALSO follows logically from their POV of their interactions' ripple effects unto Westeros. Jaime as Hand to King Bran is the ONLY setup of "Bran becomes king" that makes sense to me outside of "Dystopian Weirwood-Police State" Horror Endings or Jojen's filling the role (i don't subscribe to "Jojen Paste": its memetic status baffles me and, like, the 3EC is LITERALLY BECOMING A TREE? and House Blackwood canonically buries its dead beneath its dead weirwood tree, and WEIRWOODS ARE ALREADY PEOPLE: JOJEN'S ABSENCES ARE ALWAYS MEERA'S ABSENCES ANYWAY- *several more allcaps paragraphs*).

[janiedean]

@seethemflying I think Sansa is in the next bracket down of important characters (with Jaime). In the outline, they weren't named as one of the big five, but in the process of writing have grown more important. No way is Sansa's ending going to be anything like Show Sansa's, though (and same with Jaime tbh).

agreed but lemme take a second from cramming to rant about this because I honestly have An Issue

in the sense: I 100% agree that both jaime and sansa are next bracket/secondary main (speaking as someone whose top five is made by ppl who are either secondary main or tertiary main if they have a pov like.... I'm not gonna argue that theon is a main fiver bc he's in my top three) but like what I can't deal with is the following as in that the main five are the main five bc they have in between them all the main themes george wants to tackle + the main plot stuff except for the 'romance is my #1 sense of existing in the plot', as in:

jon is azor ahai + has the chosen one deconstruction trope going on + most likely has the 'I never wanted to be Important™/have a throne but I'll have to for duty' ending + identity arc ie if he's not jon snow first of his name i'm eating my hat

dany has the dragons + the targ ancestry deal + 'I thought I wanted to rule but actually I don't I just want to help ppl' storyline (which is the hill i'm dying on)

bran has the oH WAIT fisher king deconstruction going on + the magic™ storyline + he's most likely kitn + he's tied to uh the literal rebirth of the continent so + how to deal with disability storyline

arya has the I NEED TO REALIZE WHO I AM storyline + the learning to be yourself as a gnc woman storyline + revenge is shit storyline + I'll become a skilled assassin and choose not to act on it unless absolutely necessary storyline + trauma/ptsd storyline tied to losing your own identity

tyrion has the shakesperean hero thing going on as in I have to make peace with the fact that I killed my father/did mistakes + overcoming the societal issues/problems/the prejudice most ppl have for him that’s caused by his disability storyline + he's the only one of these five who doesn't have any magical stuff in his background/only has his brain to rely on + overcoming his family's legacy and making it better storyline

now: a bunch of other minor/secondary characters have all of this (I mean idk theon and jaime have identity + learning to deal with/overcoming societal scorn given by them being disabled/having become disabled in various ways + ptsd, brienne has the gnc woman thing etc) but like each single one of these characters only lacks the OH I HAVE A BIGASS GREAT ROMANCE WITH MY BACKGROUND (I mean gendry exists to be arya's LI but idt it's gonna be important in her future storyline the way it'll be in brienne's to say one).. which oh wait SANSA JAIME AND BRIENNE HAVE, because guess what that's the next secondary bracket where those three characters have it as a main part of the story which is exempt from the politics angle (bc none of them is tied to the iron trap by the plot no none of them jaime doesn't want it, brienne isn't a contender and sansa was supposed to be queen in the beginning so she's obviously not going to be that later no not even qitn that's gonna be bran) and here falls the entire shebang because what half of this fandom doesn't seem to get is that *drumroll* george's favorite angle to tackle when it comes to romance is... THAT EXTERNAL BEAUTY IS NOT WHAT YOU SHOULD BE LOOKING AT IN PEOPLE AT THE END OF IT AND GUESS WHAT THAT'S THE MAIN POINT OF ALL OF THEM PLUS THE KNIGHTHOOD DECONSTRUCTION THING and with that I mean:

not counting that sansa's reaction to trauma is written to be specular and opposite to arya's as in arya tends to lose sight of herself/becomes someone else/resorts to violence to survive sansa never loses track of herself/her innate kindness which... is smth I wish dnd remembered, the thing is: sansa is presented in the beginning as 'i'm a twelve year old with all the issues with shallowness a 12yo brought up like me can have and everything I want from life is a good love story', which... guess what she's 100% going to get except

characters need to have an evolution, if sansa wants a handsome pretty guy who'll make her queen in the beginning and she has to realize joffrey was The Worst, do we really think her endgame is being queen of a handsome nice king when her entire schtick is liking songs about knights and wanting true love and someone gentle and brave blah blah? no, and that's exceedingly obvious when the text throws at you in the face that her only two actually viable choices for LI - sandor and tyrion - are.. guys who are either disfigured or disabled or traumatized or all three of them but are actually good people and she has to learn to see beyond looks, and no one else fits that bill period - sansa isn't getting with a pretty guy who'll make her queen, sansa will find love with a guy who's nowhere near pretty or handsome but will love her for who she is and that she will see the good behind the not-handsomeness dot and she'll prob go back north with him and be happy advising bran bc she learned stuff in court at most and I'm dying on that hill, bc again the entire point of her sl is having the nice good love story where she sees beyond external beauty which has been clear from page five of her first pov imvho

never mind that again she wants to be a queen in the beginning and then she realizes it's shit so why would she be one in the end? like not to be that asshole but george isn't exactly pro monarchy and it's obvious he's not going to paint it as an inherently positive thing

this attaches back to the fact that there's a whole knighthood deconstruction happening for which sansa has to realize that the gallant/true knights are not the ones who seem that/look like it/flaunt it around

which brings us to the fact that oh wait sandor and jaime in themselves are true knights in spite of the fact that sandor refuses to even consider himself one and jaime thinks he fucked it up and no one sees them as such

and that the truest knight in westeros who will get recognized as such is brienne

who doesn't look standard hot either

and has the love story with jaime right on page

and jaime also has the love story right on page where he has to realize he's into people that aren't c. especially brienne and so on which is what's happening right now like jb recognizing themselves as true knights™ is part of their whole thing like... it's... important

(this counting that san/san is beauty and the beast played straight with sansa as the beauty while jb is the same trope except reversed on itself five times because both j and b are both of them)

and this would also like make utter sense if oh, wait, jb weren't in the riverlands where sandor also is and if oh wait who has sworn a vow to find sansa like again I'm dying on the hill that brienne kills stoneheart, they go on the quiet isle to recover, sandor is like AH YOU'RE LOOKING FOR SANSA and sansa gets rescued in the vale by the only three true knights in these series including the one that's her actual love interest at least the way I see it and where do you think that's going to end yeah exactly

as in: she'll have the umpteenth proof that all the true knights in these books don't look like the songs and she'll get the one she wanted

(also brienne is way more like sansa than arya in personality so like... parallelism of two girls into romantic stuff getting with the guys they like? except that for b. it's relevant bc she's ugly and she gets with hot guy who's into her and for s. it's relevant bc she's hot and she goes with guy-everyone-considers-a-lost-cause showing that they're not exactly a lost cause)

like sansa is there to a) have half of the main love story plot b) as the resident song expert witness what knighthood actually means, jaime is the resident person doing things for love and finding ways to do it that aren't toxic/finds someone who'll actually love him and not what he represents, brienne is the resident 'I never thought anyone would be into me and I'm pursuing my dreams without a shred of hope they'll go well' and she gets all of that and sandor is there to be sansa's LI and to tell ppl that you can go to rehab and have a decent life even if you were used and abused to hell and back (jaime too tbh) and like none of that has to do with the iron trap, the magic, the zombies and whatnot but it's okay because it's their point in the plot and is2g I just wish people would take characters for what they represent instead of shoehorning them into others's themes/stories just because it's what they want for them, the end

(I could rant about the third bracket of characters ie theon & co & getting over trauma/ptsd without the Love Story™ but I have to get back to study if I wanna fill some prompts later so it's not gonna happen for now but... sorry for the rant I'm just really tired of the whole sansastark will get the iron trap and the north and be the ymbq and get with a guy that looks good for her depending on what we ship not considering the overall reaching plot or her book plot and everyone else will have zero relevance in the story because we said so especially when it means giving all of that to a character who is uh not belonging to any of the categories represented by the main five which are actually kiiindaaaa relevant rep but I'mma just gonna shut up here)

[butterflies-dragons]

Daenerys's heart is a dragon not like Cersei's heart who was Tommen has belong to someone else, and even Sansa's heart will be herself.

I got this ask in reference to this post that I wrote back in 2017, especially this quote: 

Someplace no stag ever found … though a dragon might.

—A Feast for Crows - Brienne III

I don’t really get your message Anon, I didn’t mention Dany’s or Cersei’s heart in my post.   So, I will repeat my point for anyone interested:

“Where?” Brienne slapped another silver stag down.

He flicked the coin back at her with his forefinger. “Someplace no stag ever found … though a dragon might.” Silver would not get the truth from him, she sensed. Gold might, or it might not. Steel would be more certain. Brienne touched her dagger, then reached into her purse instead. She found a golden dragon and put in on the barrel. “Where?”

—A Feast for Crows - Brienne III

From this last quote I want to rescue this line: “Someplace no stag ever found… though a dragon might.” These words are talking about stags and dragons, not silver and gold, just the animals that the coins bare on one side. The stag is the sigil of House Baratheon and the dragon is the sigil of House Targaryen. And this makes me think about the Tourney at Ashford Meadow, where the first and the fifth of its final champions belonged to these houses. And according to this theory: “When you look at the names of the champions’ families and the fact they fight for a 13 year old maid, especially with the family Hardyng, we find out that they correspond strongly with Sansa’s suitors in A Song of Ice and Fire.” (*)

So, following the pattern established by the five final champions of the Tourney at Ashford Meadow, I believe that the stag in this line represents Joffrey Baratheon (Sansa’s first betrothed), while the Dragon who might find Sansa is Jon Snow, the Targaryen Champion (Sansa’s actual betrothed). This last idea is going to be developed throughout this post. 

(*) I would like to make some precisions:  1) The events of the Tourney at Ashford Meadow developed in ‘The Hedge Knight’ novella.  2) The champions are the final five after the first day of jousting.  We don’t know the results after the second day of jousting and the third day was the Trial of Seven.  3) The queen of love and beauty at the beginning of the tourney was the 13 years old daughter of Lord Ashford.  The champions weren’t fighting for her, the final five champions after the third day of jousting would decide if they crowned a new QoLaB or not.

(…)

Let’s go back to this line: “Someplace no stag ever found… though a dragon might.” In the text the word ‘someplace’ refers to where Brienne’s supposed “sister” is -the beautiful highborn maid of three-and-ten that has blue eyes and auburn hair-.  But in the history of ASOIAF universe, the word ‘someplace’ could also refer to the heart of a Stark girl.

Joffrey and Jon, Jon and Joffrey. I have a theory about them, I called it the ‘JoJo Theory’. Maybe one day I will turn my thoughts on them into words. But for now, let’s talk about these two in relation to Sansa.

Joffrey and Jon are supposed to be the sons of two best friends: Robert Baratheon and Ned Stark respectively. But none of them are really that.  And I think they both were living the other’s life.  I mean, Joffrey took Jon’s real place in the world, as Jon took Joffrey’s.  

Joffrey, who is supposed to be the trueborn son and heir of King Robert Baratheon, is truly a little shit bastard, the illegitimate child of Jaime Lannister. And he is the vicious, despicable type of bastard as well.

On the other hand, Jon who is suppose to be the baseborn son of Ned Stark, is actually the son of Prince Rhaegar Targaryen and the last Targaryen heir to the Iron Throne.  And he is the very opposite of the vicious, despicable Joffrey.  Jon is brave and has a noble heart.

Also note that the real fathers of Joffrey and Jon are the men who Cersei and Lyanna choose over Robert; that is to say: Jaime and Rhaegar.

So, reading again this line: “Someplace no stag ever found… though a dragon might.”, we know that in the past that line was true, as Robert Baratheon never found his way to Lyanna Stark’s heart unlike Prince Rhaegar Targaryen.  And it could be true again, in the future, as Joffrey (no stag) never really found his way to Sansa’s heart, but Jon (who is also a dragon) might do. Let’s see:  

His half sisters escorted the royal princes. Arya was paired with plump young Tommen, whose white-blond hair was longer than hers. Sansa, two years older, drew the crown prince, Joffrey Baratheon. He was twelve, younger than Jon or Robb, but taller than either, to Jon’s vast dismay. Prince Joffrey had his sister’s hair and his mother’s deep green eyes. A thick tangle of blond curls dripped down past his golden choker and high velvet collar. Sansa looked radiant as she walked beside him, but Jon did not like Joffrey’s pouty lips or the bored, disdainful way he looked at Winterfell’s Great Hall.

—A Game of Thrones - Jon I

Jon was obviously jealous of Joffrey, in the same fashion he was of Robb. Joffrey was ‘trueborn’, a royal prince, the heir of the Iron Throne, with a place of honor at the table just below the dais where the King and Queen were seated, handsome, taller than him despite being younger, and on top of all that, Joffrey got the beautiful radiant girl by his side. Jon just couldn’t believe why, while having all of that, Joffrey and his pouty wormy lips gave Winterfell’s Great Hall a bored and disdainful look.  

You don’t believe Jon was jealous of Joffrey? Read this then:

“Then you saw us all. Prince Joffrey and Prince Tommen, Princess Myrcella, my brothers Robb and Bran and Rickon, my sisters Arya and Sansa. You saw them walk the center aisle with every eye upon them and take their seats at the table just below the dais where the king and queen were seated.”

“I remember.”

“And did you see where I was seated, Mance?” He leaned forward. “Did you see where they put the bastard?”

—A Storm of Swords - Jon

I know that in this scene, Jon was trying to convince Mance that he really wanted to join the freefolk.  He was trying to deceive him and infiltrate into the enemy’s camp.  Despite that, the things Jon said to Mance at that moment, rang true.  So in the end, Jon did convince Mance and he ended up joining the freefolk, as a covert mission entrusted to him by Qhorin Halfhand.

Still you don’t believe me when I said Jon was jealous of Joffrey? Listen to Sansa herself then:

“What did you think of Prince Joff, sister? He’s very gallant, don’t you think?”

“Jon says he looks like a girl,” Arya said.

Sansa sighed as she stitched. “Poor Jon,” she said. “He gets jealous because he’s a bastard.”

“He’s our brother,” Arya said, much too loudly. Her voice cut through the afternoon quiet of the tower room.

—A Game of Thrones, Arya I

Now tell me that Jon saying ‘Joffrey looks like a girl’ is not proof enough of Jon Snow being obviously jealous of the crown prince.

But Jon Snow who knows nothing, except, maybe, that Joffrey is truly a little shit, has no idea that Joffrey was living his life.

And his sisters cousins, Sansa and Arya, unbeknownst to him, expose this truth to Ned while talking about Joffrey’s hair color (note that Ned always knew who Jon’s real father is):  

“Father, I only just now remembered, I can’t go away, I’m to marry Prince Joffrey.” She tried to smile bravely for him. “I love him, Father, I truly truly do, I love him as much as Queen Naerys loved Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, as much as Jonquil loved Ser Florian. I want to be his queen and have his babies.”

“Sweet one,” her father said gently, “listen to me. When you’re old enough, I will make you a match with a high lord who’s worthy of you, someone brave and gentle and strong. This match with Joffrey was a terrible mistake. That boy is no Prince Aemon, you must believe me.”

“He is!“ Sansa insisted. “I don’t want someone brave and gentle, I want him. We’ll be ever so happy, just like in the songs, you’ll see. I’ll give him a son with golden hair, and one day he’ll be the king of all the realm, the greatest king that ever was, as brave as the wolf and as proud as the lion.

"Arya made a face. "Not if Joffrey’s his father,” she said. “He’s a liar and a craven and anyhow he’s a stag, not a lion.”

—A Game of Thrones - Sansa III

"All three are Jaime’s,” he said. It was not a question.

“Thank the gods.”

The seed is strong, Jon Arryn had cried on his deathbed, and so it was. All those bastards, all with hair as black as night. Grand Maester Malleon recorded the last mating between stag and lion, some ninety years ago, when Tya Lannister wed Gowen Baratheon, third son of the reigning lord. Their only issue, an unnamed boy described in Malleon’s tome as a large and lusty lad born with a full head of black hair, died in infancy. Thirty years before that a male Lannister had taken a Baratheon maid to wife. She had given him three daughters and a son, each black-haired. No matter how far back Ned searched in the brittle yellowed pages, always he found the gold yielding before the coal.

“A dozen years,” Ned said. “How is it that you have had no children by the king?”

—A Game of Thrones - Eddard XII

I can clearly imagine Ned thinking about how he had to hide Jon Snow, the heir of the Last Dragon, as his bastard; while Joffrey, an actual bastard, was living the life that could have been Jon’s, had Rhaegar prevailed over Robert.

This kind of ‘switched at birth’ case between Jon and Joffrey and the possibility of Jon being Sansa’s fifth Targaryen betrothed, is actually foreshadowed in the Books. Let’s read this passage from Sansa’s first chapter in ACOK:

The morning of King Joffrey’s name day dawned bright and windy, with the long tail of the great comet visible through the high scuttling clouds. Sansa was watching it from her tower window when Ser Arys Oakheart arrived to escort her down to the tourney grounds. “What do you think it means?” she asked him.

“Glory to your betrothed,” Ser Arys answered at once. “See how it flames across the sky today on His Grace’s name day, as if the gods themselves had raised a banner in his honor. The smallfolk have named it King Joffrey’s Comet.”

Doubtless that was what they told Joffrey; Sansa was not so sure. “I’ve heard servants calling it the Dragon’s Tail.”

“King Joffrey sits where Aegon the Dragon once sat, in the castle built by his son,” Ser Arys said. “He is the dragon’s heir—and crimson is the color of House Lannister, another sign. This comet is sent to herald Joffrey’s ascent to the throne, I have no doubt. It means that he will triumph over his enemies.

"Is it true? she wondered. Would the gods be so cruel? Her mother was one of Joffrey’s enemies now, her brother Robb another. Her father had died by the king’s command. Must Robb and her lady mother die next? The comet was red, but Joffrey was Baratheon as much as Lannister, and their sigil was a black stag on a golden field. Shouldn’t the gods have sent Joff a golden comet?

— A Clash of Kings - Sansa I

See? From “Glory to your betrothed,” to “King Joffrey sits where Aegon the Dragon once sat, in the castle built by his son” “He is the dragon’s heir” Every word from Arys Oakheart’s mouth evokes Jon, not Joffrey.  Joffrey is not a dragon, far less the dragon’s heir; he’s not even a stag.

If Joffrey had truly been the son of Robert Baratheon, he indeed would have had a bit of Targaryen blood, because Robert’s grandmother was the Princess Rhaelle Targaryen, but that’s not the case.  

And the red comet could never be ‘Joffrey’s Comet’ as Sansa correctly pointed out when she said: “Shouldn’t the gods have sent Joff a golden comet?” The servants were right; the red comet was related to dragons, just as the person who knows everything in ASOIAF stated emphatically:  

Bran asked Septon Chayle about the comet while they were sorting through some scrolls snatched from the library fire. "It is the sword that slays the season,” he replied, and soon after the white raven came from Oldtown bringing word of autumn, so doubtless he was right.

Though Old Nan did not think so, and she’d lived longer than any of them. “Dragons,” she said, lifting her head and sniffing. She was near blind and could not see the comet, yet she claimed she could smell it. “It be dragons, boy,” she insisted. Bran got no princes from Nan, no more than he ever had.

Hodor said only, “Hodor.” That was all he ever said.

—A Clash of Kings - Bran I

Sadly the last part of this passage from Sansa’s first chapter in ACOK, also foreshadowed the Red Wedding.  The Lannisters once more would take her family from her; this time Catelyn and Robb.

But let’s stick with the good part, the part where she is called the betrothed of the dragon’s heir, that is not Joffrey, but Jon Snow, her own Dragonknight, her Black Knight of the Wall, her dark haired prince hiding in the north.  We can only hope that this time the betrothal will end in a real marriage, because Sansa’s betrothal record isn’t so good thus far:

Joffrey Baratheon (the Psychopath Bastard), the betrothal was broken.

Willas Tyrell (the Cripple), the betrothal was cancelled.

Tyrion Lannister (the Imp), the marriage was not consummated.

Harrold Hardying (the Arse), the betrothal still stands but the bride is Alayne Stone.

Jon Snow (is dead but on the third day he will rise again from the dead).

But against the odds, I believe Sansa will wear a Targaryen Cloak, and under that protection, she will slay her enemies.  

***

I wrote this three years ago.  I think it needs some adjusting here and there, but the main idea is there and I hope this time is clearer. 

Good night.

[aerltarg]

2, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 26, 27 from ask game

2. Are there any popular fandom OTPs you only BroTP?

oh, it's actually hard to answer bc pretty often my otps can work as brotps for me as well. it also means that when i can't ship some characters they don't work for me as friends either. not to mention that in asoiaf i'm open to many ships, and if i'm not very passionate about some it's not a sign i can't see them in romantic light.

5. Has fandom ever ruined a pairing for you?

may i say any sansa ship? 😭 as well as sansa herself lmao. idk generally i can't ship characters i don't like because i'm just not interested. and it's not to say i don't like book!sansa (show!sansa is another case 💀), i just don't find her arc as intriguing and epic as arcs of some other characters. however, it's absolutely her obnoxious fandom's fault that i don't want to touch anything about her now, pairings including. sansaery? pass. sansan? i used to have a soft spot for them in my heart but now? nah. sansa x anyone? pls have mercy, she's already a fandom bicycle.

and jonsa ofc. i would never mind some crack ship as i do this one if not for their obnoxious stans that did way too much to list there right now. but this burning desire to persuade every rock on the street that your crack ship is canon will never stop being ridiculous lmao

also braime. tbh i used to low-key like them but some of their stans weirded my away lol. i get that not all of them are like that but still. it's generally my great pain when i see braime/brienne/jaime stans who are also dany/targ antis. every time i see them i cackle and run away as fast as i can crying from disappointment lmao. it's really a pity because i'm either very neutral or like in my own way all three of them.

6. Has fandom ever made you enjoy a pairing you previously hated?

jonrya it is! i never hated them, you know, but they never were more than siblings and brotp to me. however, later i encountered the deluded crack ship fandom that shall not be named and understood that if there is any possible romance for jon with any of his sisters-cousins we all know which one it will be lmao. also their stans are very sweet and i really like many of their takes on arya and jon! i generally love relationships of jon and arya very much so it wasn't that difficult in practice to see them in a quite different light.

7. Is there anything you used to like but can't stand now?

meta culture lmao. reading different analysis and interpretations of the text used to be very interesting to me (and still is tbh but in other fandoms) though asoiaf is a different case. imo many people aren't honest in their so called theories and analyses. i get that all of us are biased but some "meta writers'" denial of their own biases influence fandom in a bad way. it looks like too many people run to them to get answers to their questions about any minor detail as if they were grrm himself. yk instead of using their own reading comprehension lmao. you see how this meta culture ruined fandom just looking at the most delusional stans and shippers who spread their agenda by writing endless text posts full of nonsense and bullshit but styled as oh so intellectual and thoughtful analysis. it's insane how many people actually buy it and don't check canon accuracy of such claims themselves. it got to the ridiculous point when random people try to argue with you with some far-fetched embarrassing "theories" as if they were canon facts or quotes straight up from a fanfic because they read somewhere some other confused soul's post and got from a context that this quote is canon (despite the fact that it wasn't written in grrm's style at all but some people can't use their brains even if their lives depended on it it seems).

anyway it's become too long and rambly already so tldr. because of such "neutral unbiased" analyses i got the habit of fact checking almost everything i see in such posts. there's only a small amount of meta writers from targ/dany/jon/arya stans that i trust because i know by practice and following them for some time that they don't pull anything out of nowhere, back up everything they say with canon quotes, don't decontextualize anything and (that is the most important thing to me) are reasonable and open to discussion unlike so many bnfs nowadays.

8. Have you received anon hate? What about?

ah, not in this fandom yet, god bless! i think i'm not loud enough for the needed amount of time to deserve it lol. but since i'm not going anywhere soon maybe one day i will 😂

9. Most disliked character(s)? Why?

robert baratheon and tywin lannister, obviously. tbh it's pretty hard for me to hate any characters because you know. they're fictional lmao. just lines on paper, they can't hurt you. and even such dudes as tywin or robert don't get real distaste from me if they're written well enough. my problem with them lies not only in their canon crimes and shitty consequences of those but in fandom's (or at least some parts of it) unwillingness to acknowledge that they're canonically written as shitty, not as stan/pity/worship material. tywin isn't as clever as some think and robert is a coward outside of battlefield, not to mention some absolutely disgusting denial of his nature from targ antis only because the man happened to be the most vocal targ hater in-universe so these folks feel like he is their main book representative and whitewash him completely lmao

10. Most disliked arc? Why?

uugh idk even. i'm either low-key interested (or used to be at least so i can stay pretty neutral for the sake of nostalgia lol) or too indifferent to really care.

11. Is there an unpopular character you like that the fandom doesn't? Why?

all my faves have their own crowd of haters i'm afraid 😭 but let me say rhaegar. even among some dany/targ stans my man is so misunderstood lmao. it's not even his fault i dare say it's fanon about his half-imagined crimes that somehow got widespread to the unbelievable degree. and when i say they're half-imagined i'm being very generous actually. ofc he isn't perfect, no one in asoiaf is. and yes, he's a pre-series dead minor character but almost all little information about him is actually positive, not to mention the narrative itself that doesn't paint him as a villain or just a shitty dude. on the contrary, he's an idealized to some degree dead prince who could've been a good king (like some other historical targaryens, jacaerys, baelor breakspear, aemon son of jaehaerys, etc.), a mysterious yet tragic figure. i have much to say about why it's so popular to shit on him in fandom but yeah. his haters should send their complaints to grrm instead, no one forced the man to write him like that lol. and i mean that no one has to like him ofc. but it's misinterpretation of the text to claim he was intentionally written as a villain or smth by grrm.

12. Is there an unpopular arc that you like that the fandom doesn't? Why?

i don't know if it counts as unpopular but i would say tyrion's arc as a whole because i enjoy his character and like in my own way. i can get why some people don't like him but this man will always have his own place in my heart i must admit.

13. Unpopular opinion about XXX character?

is this unpopular tho?.. ok but renly wouldn't make a terrible king. i dare say he would be better than both robert and stannis. yes, he wasn't shown as perfect and i don't claim this. he wouldn't be the best or the most brilliant or the most just or noble. yet still better than his brothers. his flaws weren't anything other high lords didn't have, his mistakes weren't anything other lords and kings didn't do. in many ways he would make a better job than robert or stannis, too bad he died so early, even though i get why it was important for the narrative.

26. Most shippable character?

well generally for me it's the ones i love the most lol. jonerys/snowstorm is my never dying otp but i admit my sins, sometimes i just see dany with other characters (often from other fandoms pls don't @ me). however, since dany is THE fave of mine it means i would rather twist the other guy or girl to fit into the good match for her than twist her for another character in my new born crack ship lol. and i never stay for too long with the ships with which i feel they don't really fit and don't do justice for each other lol. maybe that's the reason i'm not much of a rare shipper / crack shipper afshdjdb

27. Least shippable character?

everyone i don't like? 😭 as i've said sansa for the reasons above lol. you can insert many others in her place lmao

[hinasho]

i saw someone ask the question “if you had to choose who would die in The Long Night who would you pick” and that’s such a strange but also fun question i want to answer it. so my picks would be:

the deaths i’d keep:

melisandre, theon, and jorah dying is already fine. the first two’s deaths were satisfying and fit their characters perfectly (melisandre finally found her purpose and theon finally found his way home). jorah also just needed to damn die ahdjchs. i can’t imagine his character being of any use in the episodes after tbh. tyrion was dany’s hand now, grey worm commanded the unsullied/her fighting forces. jorah served his purpose episodes ago so him dying here, and especially dying to protect dany is fine and fits well.

beric’s death being in TLN is fine, but i’d just change how he died. i’d rather he have played a role in defeating the night king rather than simply saving arya. i know she’s the one that killed the NK, so technically he did, but still. i’d rather him have played a more important role in directly dealing with the NK rather than dying alone and left behind in a hallway.

ed like jorah served his purpose. in 8.02 we got that really sentimental shot of the last three nights watchmen standing atop a wall (of winterfell) so them reuniting right before the end was beautiful. ed dying was fine. just hate that he died saving sam like wow talk about the survivor’s guilt.

visieron dying was fine.

the deaths i’d remove:

lyanna mormont. i know she was a kid so she stood the least chance of survival, but it’s fantasy and tbh the child lord surviving after taking down a giant and living to old age and being seen as a legend would’ve been really cool. “the youngest lord to kill a giant and survive the long night” would’ve been a nice tale to have to her.

the unsullied/dothraki. now since these are a people, ofc some of them had to die. i’m not saying save all of them. but the instant extinction of the dothraki is terrible and the majority of unsullied dying is also tasteless for the simple fact that these are the two groups in winterfell that consist of mostly poc and most/all of them fucking die. it’s bad. especially bc??? this isn’t even their home????? the Whiteness™️ to write these two groups of color dying for white people they not only don’t know but who also openly look at them with disdain. what the fuck.

the deaths i’d add:

(here’s the kicker lol)

brienne. she’s served her purpose! she finally got the stark sisters to safety back in their home and kept her promise to catelyn. and then not only that, she finally became a true and official knight in 8.02, her lifelong dream. her dying in TLN would’ve been fine bc she’s finally accomplished all she’s wanted and i think would’ve died at peace. it also would’ve been sad bc shes such a great honorable character.

grey worm. him and missandei giving their “what will we do afterwards :)” hopeful speeches, finally being officially and comfortably together, is what wouldve made his death, while expected, still hit emotionally regardless.

gilly in the crypts. not little sam, just gilly. it would’ve been heart wrenching seeing her die, and i don’t think sam should’ve found out until the morning after/after the fight. this leaves sam to raise little sam as a single parent, kinda contrasting his awful late father. sam doesn’t have much while his father had everything. sam would be the dad to little sam that he wished he had.

the hound. specifically defending arya. beric wouldn’t have been with them and would’ve been off doing smthg involving the night king, while the hound is the one that sacrifices himself to save arya.

tormund. listen i love tormund so much but him dying in TLN wouldve been good. the army of the dead was his fight, not the fight for the iron throne, so his end being here would’ve fit. but there is the issue of them making him the one and only face of the free folk we know now tho. in the earlier seasons we had mance, ygritte, karsi, etc. so one of them dying was fine bc we still had other characters representing the free folk. the fact we only have tormund now, while emphasizes how many of them has died, from a writing standpoint is more of a hinderance than anything else bc now he basically has plot invincibility. i’d have probably had karsi survive hardhome somehow so that least if tormund died, we’d know who the next leader of the free folk could be.

ser davos by defending a little girl. specifically that little girl we meet earlier with the scar on her face. it would be his way of being there for another little girl even tho he couldn’t be there for shireen. i think mr “i don’t fight” dying by protecting an innocent child would bring him peace and would be satisfying (while also emotional).

a stark ffs!!!!!! idk which one, but one of them should’ve died. it would’ve sucked major ass and probably would’ve been tear jerking, but i still think it should’ve happened. preferably at the very end of the episode as the final character death. in my head, the perfect candidate would probably be jon. in my perfect world, the storyline of him being a targaryen wouldn’t exist, so he’d still be ned’s son. as a nights watchmen, him and the white walkers have always been connected while him and the iron throne have not. him dying here, most likely giving his life to ensure the white walkers are finally and truthfully gone forever, would’ve been a good end.

BONUS: deaths that, if were to happen, would have to happen during the fight for the iron throne

(now in my perfect universe, the FFTIT would’ve come before TLN. regardless tho, some characters were more connected to either storyline so their deaths/final endings should reflect as such in whatever order the storylines happen)

jamie. he’s survived a lot of stuff, so if his death were to occur at any point, it should be during this. it would also be a nice full circle since he began this journey killing the mad king so him ending the journey to ensure cersei, the mad queen, is off the throne wouldve be pleasing.

gendry. i like him and it’d be sad to see him go, but him dying for the iron throne, the throne his father essentially died because of, would be interesting

arya. after doing smthg that would directly involve cersei’s death. cersei’s the only one left on her list (well besides the hound but tomato tomatoe) so arya dying to finally finish avenging her family would’ve been interesting. she’s basically turned herself into a weapon at this point so her death being her hitting the final target would fit.

(in my version, this would also leave bran and sansa as the last remaining starks. and since bran is Smthg Else Now, essentially just sansa. a parallel to how ned was the last of his siblings.)

i think cersei is an obvious one.

the mountain. specifically at the hands of the hound (bc ya know in my version the FFTIT takes place before TLN).

those are the ones i can think of off the top of my head. but yeah! if i had to pick and choose who died during TLN (and who didn’t), then these would be my picks :]

[daeneryswhitehorse]

Dany hate throughout the years.

( This is base on a reply I made in post create by @yendany . I also want to precise that it is only my perspective of the fandom as a dany stan, other people probably have a different opinion of what was going on. )

I came in the asoiaf/got fandom in 2011, when the show first came out. I fell in love with dany on my first watch and still like her after reading the books. I started to get involved in the fandom because I wanted to learn more about her.

I didn't know tumblr at the time so I was on westeros.org. The mad queen dany theory was already a thing, mostly for the persons who didn't like that dany could be azor ahai and not one of the male character. But the forum still liked her for her baddass moments in asos or her portrayal in the first season of got.

Everything changed when adwd came out. The incels in this site really didn't liked dany having sex with daario after rejecting jorah/quentyn. They also didn't understood her plot, were tired of her staying in Essos or not interacting with main pov character. It was enough for them to think she was boring.

From then on, there were a lot of bad take of her character. Grrm wanting to talk about the consequences of her mistakes and her decision of staying in meereen was understood as dany being dumb and incompetent as a queen. People made fun of her long list of titles and thought it make her look arrogant. They claimed she was nothing without her dragon, in contrast to male character like stannis. Or not a true warrior because she spend her battle hiding in her tent, unlike stannis or jon who fight with swords. Or that she didn't car about the common people, because she try to negociate with the meereeness nobles. Most of those claimed exist to prove why character like Jon or Stannis would be azor ahai or the true king of Westeros.

After season 3 of the show came out, a lot of people were rightfully offended by the final scene with daenerys where she surf on a sea of brown people. A lot of fans start seeing Dany as a white savior in both books and show, and a lot of essay were about how how her storyline was rooted in racist orientalist ideas. If you were a person of color and still stan her, it was probably because of internalized racism.

Before this season, feminist critized the butchering of most of dany storyline, like they did with other female characters. But none was as talk about then Sansa's, because the most popular female character like Dany, Arya and Brienne were seen as the cash grab of the show. It was considered more important to defend her in particular, and liking Sansa over them was seen as resistance act against D&D misogyny.

The intellectual part of the fandom really went out of their way in defending her. They liked her because she was a gateway to the political part of the story in King's Landing and the Vale. They didn't like how some fans victim-blamed her for the abuse she suffered with the Lannister, and praised the fact she didn't end up with stockolm syndrome like Dany or Theon. "Not everyone can be an Arya" did they said, as they wanted people to acknowledged she was the more relatable point of view and how her traditional feminity shouldn't be put down. They emphasis a lot on her kindness, her emphatie, or her observational skills but and said those qualities were unique to her and are what separate her of the rest of the cast. She was the representation of humanity in this crapsack world. And after outsmarting Littlefinger would probably be rewarded with an important political position and would be one of the builder of the new world after the apocalypse.

All of this probably wasn't meant to be interprete as hate toward other female and some of the male characters, but it sure did for the Sansa stan! Who would then create their entire defense meta around putting down any character they found and upliftting her above them. Their favorite target was Arya, but you could found from time to time one on Dany. I remember someone defending Sansa innocence in trusting Cersei in the first book, by emphasing on her age and naivety, and putting down dany for not knowing mirri maz durr would get revenge on her khalassar.

Talking about Dany, the intellectual part of the fandom didn't really like her. I mean they didn't hate her, and didn't diminish her importance in the story, but she clearly wasn't a fan favorite.

There was two angle in their analysis of daenerys: the political leader and the messiah.

For the first part, they were trying to define daenerys position in the story, and came to the conclusion she was the destroyer of the old world. In their point of view, dany didn't free the slaves in asos for pure reason but because she couldn't pay for an army, and then didn't know how to build a new economy, leading to the horrors in astapor in adwd and her failure in maintaining peace in meereen. For them, Dany is unable to control her emotion and confuse revenge with justice. They also think she is an incompetent queen who make decision on a whim and never listen to her adviser. Her relationship with Daario represent her want for easy solution through war, wich she embrace at the end of adwd. When she can't remember Hazzea name, it meant innocent would die in her violent path in twow. Because of this, the expression "the path of hell is paved with good intention" became popular to define her arc from asos to beyond.

For the second part, they were clearly interressed by the mystical part of her story. Dany has a lot of prophecy around her that can be used to determined the next plotlines post adwd. For some reason, they pushed their own obssession with it on Daenerys, who they now believed is blinded by her own destiny. They claimed she think she is the hero of story and is unable to see when she does something wrong. This until she will blow up King's Landing in ados. This would push her toward her true destiny in the fight against the others where she will sacrifice herself for the greater good.

And lets not talk about the weird part of the fandom who are obssessed with deconstruction and who would only acknowledge dany as azor ahai reborn if it meant the hero is actually the true villain of the story, and the Others misunderstood victims.

2015 arrive as well as season 5 of got. This season was so controversial it manage to divided the fandom in three.

The first one were book purist who were disguted by the total butchering of affc/adwd plotline to replace them with offensive mess, and decided to stop watching the show and focus on the books. While some of them were dany friendly, they all seem to favor character like Sansa, Stannis, Brienne, the Lannisters, or the Martells. A lot of effort were put into their metas to uplift their book plotline and personality above their show counterpart.

The second part is similar to the first one, exept they didn't stop watching the show but decided to view each season through critical lense to try to understand the sexism and racism of D&D. They were mostly Sansa and Martell stan.

Both of those point of view were seen as too radical and annoying by the dudebro show apologist. Being a Martell and Sansa stan also become a sign of being a woke feminist, a book purist and a show anti.

The third part of the fandom decided that the failure of season 5 was the responsability of Grrm for not finishing his books in time, and that the show writer had run out of material and were forced to improvised. Plus the book plots were too complex and boring to be adapted, they had to simplify them. And they were also given futur plot point by Grrm that could explain some of the controversial decision this season. Like Sansa wedding with Ramsay, it was probably made because the character would end up in the North in one of the next books.

Thoses three point of view are important to understand why when the theory saying dany is a villain not a hero became more popular, dany stan were pretty isolated.

And why did this theory became more popular? Well it's a mix of all thoses perception of daenerys that I mention above but mostly because of the peoples who decided that dany in season 5 was Joffrey.02. Like I say there were people who thought that D&D were now working with futur plot point given by Grrm. And since dany storyline was read as one of a white savior, and the fandom believed Grrm can't do no wrong, and dany did some stuff this season they disapproved of, they decided it meant dany should be seen as a villain. And in a way, it manage to reconciliate the feminist anti racist and the pro D&D point of view , now united in hating daenerys. It allowed them to still trust the show, because it meant it was not D&D and grrm who were racist but dany, and it made them feel smart for having figured out this big plot point. Plus a chunk of the show!jon stan decide the parallel between them this season meant he would become the true hero of the story. Because they thought janos execution was more honorable than mossador's, and jon fight against the wight walker to defend his brothers and the free folks was contrast with dany running away on drogon.

But there were people who didn't like dany and didn't think she would become a villain. Thoses people were feminist who thought daenerys, as the face of the show, was the embodiement of D&D fake feminism responsible of the ruined of character like Sansa or the Martells. Sansa in particular because they felt the show hated traditional feminity which is something Dany was not, which was what allegedly gave her more priviledge and love by the writer and fandom. When season 6 came out, they criticized the double standard between Cersei and Dany, where the former was demonized for burning a Church and the later was celebrate for burning the khals in their holy place. Obviously, the criticism of orientalism and racism within her story didn't make her very popular with feminist.

Season 6 end, and the sansa fandom decide to ship their fav with Jon Snow. But unfortunalty for them, it was obvious that jonerys would become a thing in later season.

Now Sansa was pretty well beloved by the fandom. Like I said earlier, the intellectual part of the fandom and the sansa defense squad really went out of their way to give a better image of the character, wich was fairly popular now that show sansa had a more active role. Plus the feminist adore her!

On the other hand, daenerys was seen as either a villain in the making, or the representation of the show fake feminism and racism. At this point dany stan were considered the dumbass of the fandom.

So, what happen when the jonerys vs jonsa shipping war happen? Well the jonerys shipper were seen as the big bully who victimized the poor sansa stan. Since in their point of view, dany stan were racist people who can't read, and the sansa stan were the woke book purist. Since Sansa was the underdog unfairly hated by the dudebro of the fandom, but beloved by the intellectuals. And Dany was the popular girl who got dumb stan and is only loved by pop feminism. People were naturally more incline into believing jonsa shippers as the victime of this war.

Even when the sansa stan were saying the most heinous things about dany and other female character to prop her up. Even when they were using the villain dany theory, the dark!dany theory, the white savior theory that had now become about dany being a colonizer and imperialist, or the ableist mad queen dany theory wich they backed up by diagnosis her with all the real life disorder they hated. It was seen as normal and dany stan just can't handle criticism. Even when multiple blog were created on tumblr to hate on daenerys which had almost no equivalent for the sansa/jonsa fandom, the jonerys shippers were the bad guys.

Jonerys was made canon in season 7. The intellectual part of the fandom either accept it but thought it was a cliche uninspiring ship, or they defend it for the themes but didn't see it as a complex relationship like jaime with cersei or brienne. The feminist, particulary the one who hated house targaryen, were shocked that grrm could romantize incest. And obviously, the jonsa hated it, and there ugliness started to be notice more with the weird theory they builted, like political!jon. The Jonerys fandom were finally getting some justice.

Plus more big name essayists in the fandom started debunking of the baseless incel hate dany receive post adwd. Dany had now the right to sleep with Daario, Jorah was a creep, Dany rejected Quentyn for peace, and Drogo being Dany rapist was getting more believed by the fandom.

During the hiatus before season season 8, @rainhadaenerys wrote down a lot of meta as a defense against the worst claimed that the fandom made about Dany. It gave hoped to dany stan, but it was crushed by season 8 with D&D deciding to make the mad queen theory canon the worst way possible.

Now the feminist and the intellectual part of the fandom are both defending daenerys. But there is the dominant idea that certain event of the last season could happen in the books, like dany burning King's Landing. And the possibility of her going insane should be accepted by the dany stan, and if not, it mean we are not real asoiaf fans.

[yenslilac]

Femininity in Game of Thrones - Sansa, Margaery and Daenerys (feat. Arya)

In Game of Thrones Sansa, Margaery and Daenerys represent a different ideas of femininity, and they operate within these ideas, how the stereotypes of their roles influence their behaviour and storyline, and how they affect each other. 

[A Note: I talk a lot about the ‘ideal’ woman, or stereotypical feminine/masculine traits a lot. These don’t reflect my view, instead I tried to write this with Westerosi values in mind. Many of these points you might disagree with, that’s because they are valued by a fictional medieval society.] 

Sansa represents the idea of Traditional Femininity - the ‘ideal’ woman, who is generally passive, beautiful and sweet, with an affinity for domestic duties. 

Sansa likes sewing and dancing, and plays the high harp, and dreams of gallant knights. Both Arya and Catelyn Stark recognise she is very much suited to the life of a noble lady. 

“Sansa was a lady at three, always so courteous and eager to please. She loved nothing so well as tales of knightly valor.” 

- Catelyn VII, A Clash of Kings 

The qualities of Traditional Femininity are not always negative, but it cannot be ignored that it is this example that many women have been forced into or compared against in-world and in our own reality, and I’ll discuss this effect on Arya and Brienne later. 

But Sansa is praised by many for her lady-like qualities, and because of this for a lot of her life she has lived in a privileged and sheltered life. This makes it difficult for her during her time in King’s Landing as she finds it difficult to understand and adapt to her life as a hostage, because she was taught to obey her lord, who was Joffrey. 

Her passiveness shows within her storyline, as she never actively pursues a goal like Margaery or Daenerys. She is promised to Joffrey by her parents, her role in Joffrey’s death was unknown to her, and her escape from King’s Landing was in the hands of Dontos Hollard and Lord Baelish. She has two brief moments with Joffrey - one which she pleads for her father’s life, but this falls under ‘woman begs for a life to be saved’ and she relies on her sweet gentleness to sway Joffrey. The second is when she is brought to see the heads of her father and other members of the Stark household in King’s Landing. 

“Maybe my brother will give me your head.”

- Sansa VI, A Game of Thrones

Sansa shows that her passive gentle nature could evolve into a way that uses to advance herself. A way to use her power and influence to sway decisions and gain power by leaning into these qualities that she possesses and that people expect of her. An example of this could be Lady Macbeth, or on a more positive note, Margaery, who is up next. We actually see this again in more deliberate way, in the Vale. After Lysa’s death Sansa cries and absolves Petyr Baelish and herself of any guilt or responsibility. However, in Season 8, this is tried several more times, but ends up making her look catty and bitchy, because they did not lean into her strengths. In the end she is made Queen with the permission of brother, and we see no election creating her as Queen. As was at the start of the story, she returns to a passive role and lets others lift her up to new positions of power. 

Margaery represents what could be considered the Femme Fatale - she has control and ambition, particularly regarding her own body. She is willing to push the boundaries of acceptable society, but she is also aware of the expectations of women, and leans into them, just as Sansa began to do. She plays innocent and passive while also manipulating the likes of Joffrey and Tommen with her body language. 

Margaery learnt from the likes of her grandmother the power thet women have without being physically aggressive. This is important for Margaery as a noble lady, because she has to conform to society's expectations in order to succeed. She plays innocent and passive, conforming to the ideals of society. 

[If you’re really interested in how she manages to manipulate people I would really recommend watching this video from Charisma On Command, which explains how she is able to get Joffrey on her side as well as other characters.]

But Margaery is also willing to push against the restraints of this persona, baiting Cersei when she knows her own power will soon outstrip the others. She wears less modest clothing as opposed to the more reserved clothing of Cersei (highlighting her youth and beauty) and meets with the poor and orphans.

Like I mentioned before, Margaery uses her position and persuasion to influence decisions. She gets both Joffrey and Tommen alone and builds their trust of her, acting innocent and gentle for Joffery, making him feel dominant and powerful, and playful for Tommen, who, a younger boy was a little in awe of a beautiful woman. She submits to the High Sparrow, avoiding the Walk of Shame, and allowing her back into the Red Keep.

But this also leads to her downfall. Her constant pushing against Cersei and manipulation leads to Cersei correctly viewing her as an active threat. Cue the Sept of Baelor explosion. But does this mean that Margaery's ambition, manipulation and pushing against society's rules are a bad thing? Not at all. These actions allowed Margaery to pursue her goals on her own terms. It was Cersei's actions that put her in a position where she was stuck - and even then I have seen many criticisms of the whole Sept of Baelor, so this can maybe be put down to D&D wanting a quick way to kill her off.

Daenerys represents the Masculine Femininity - a combination of typical masculine and feminine traits. Daenerys dresses in typically feminine clothes - long dresses with intricate embroidery, and she has long braided hair. She does not make her more masculine, and falls into the bracket with Margaery and Sansa, as they are all very feminine characters. The difference between them and Daenerys, is that Dany has many more traits typically attributed to men - she is willing to take an aggressive approach herself, usually involving her dragons. She is also much more direct in her threats -

“We will lay waste to armies, and burn cities to the ground. Turn us away and we will burn you first.”

This is unlike the other two feminine women, Margaery and Sansa, who are not so aggressive, but this does not make this a bad thing. Daenerys benefits from her drive and ambition, and her direct attitude allows her to be taken more seriously when dealing with the slave masters in Essos. 

Daenerys does not uphold a persona, and lays out her cards on the table. People see her genuinely, and her compassion and sense of justice gains her friends as well as enemies. This clash of stereotypical male and female traits e.g. compassion vs. strict justice, gentleness vs. aggressiveness, creates her character, and often draws criticism from other characters. Like Sansa was considered foolish, Margaery provocative, Daenerys is persuaded to be more gentle and forgiving, which she ignores. She is told be less gentle and compassionate, when wanting to free the slaves of Yunkai, but ignores that as well. Just like Sansa and Margaery ,who began to learn to take other’s expectations as an advantage, Daenerys embraces both sides of her nature, understanding when to be merciful and when to be stern - Like a mother!

Considering that characters like Jon Snow are never criticised on screen for executing Janos Slynt, or Tyrion Lannister using wildfire on Stannis’ army, the fact that Daenerys faces negativity whenever she suggests aggressive action, such as executing one of her advisors after he killed an imprisoned Son of the Harpy, or flying to the Red Keep to confront Cersei (in Season 7, she never actually says she will burn it down), it could be concluded that Daenerys as a woman, is being unfairly leashed, while her male counterparts dole out dubious acts of justice without someone in the back saying “maybe instead, you could be nice to them!” 

Arya is probably one of the most central non-feminine characters in Game of Thrones. She rejects the traditional ideals of the gender -  Arya rejects the expectations placed upon her as a woman, and the restraints that come with it. 

 Arya in the show is a cold blooded killer, especially in the later seasons. She calmly slices a man’s throat, and bakes his sons into a pie. Arya in the books however is compassionate, protective, and is much more inclined to typically feminine things than in the show. In the show, Arya does show love and kindness, but to a lesser degree than in the books (which I think is a damn shame). 

Arya and Daenerys are characters who receive a lot of hatred and criticism. It could be called coincidence, but both the characters fall into categories OUTSIDE the ‘ideal woman’. Sansa and Margaery are compassionate and gentle and are (or believed to be) passive. Daenerys and Arya are also compassionate (depending on the media for Arya) and protective, but unlike Sansa and Margaery, they do not appear as passive to onlookers. They are direct and often aggressive in their approach to things, but also practice restraint and impulsivity in situations. 

Arya is most definitely disliked for the fact that she, a woman, dresses and carries out actions unlike what she is supposed to do. Sansa fed Ramsey to the dogs, and rightfully so, because he raped and abused her. Arya kills Meryn Trant and Walder Frey in brutal ways, but I have seen a lot of hate towards her that is generally not directed at Sansa. Perhaps it could pinned to the fact that Sansa herself did not directly kill Ramsey, and walked away as he died. Arya killed them herself, and watched as they died. 

Both women clearly took pleasure in the killing, so I think it would not be wrong that many people see Sansa’s action as triumphant, her smile a small crack in her ladylike demeanor, and then turn around and condemn Arya for doing the same, because she is less ladylike and more masculine. Sansa does not engage in the dirty work, Arya does. Sansa is a gentle lady exacting justice upon a cruel man, but looks away from the gore. Arya is a psychopath who gladly takes a hand in brutal murder. 

These situations are essentially the same, yet Arya is shamed and insulted by the audience for it. It is similar to Daenerys. Every harsh action - the execution of Mirri Maz Duur, Doreah and Xaro Xhoan Daxos, the slave masters, the Tarlys. All of them are analyzed and judged and she is hated for it. She is physically powerful (I say this because of her dragons) and ambitious, and like Arya, often has a hand in the execution of her enemies. 

Daenerys does not take pleasure in most of these scenarios, mainly because unlike Arya, the executions are usually not revenge motivated. Yet again, she is villified, almost for the opposite reason to Arya. She dresses feminine yet acts in ways often interpreted as masculine. Many might argue that this is not the sole reason for the hatred directed towards, and I agree, but I definitely think that it plays a strong part, especially as other male characters, and Sansa do not have essays painting them as villains and specifically using the executions they carry out. 

I also want to address the claim that many Sansa stans have, which is the reason I felt prompted to make this in the first place. Many of Sansa’s fans feel that she is hated because she is feminine, unlike other characters, which I felt is wrong, and I think I’ve provided enough evidence for that. It cannot be denied that the specific type of femininity that Sansa exhibits has been used against women in her own universe and ours. If you are not modest, you’re a slut, women should be quiet and gentle, they should be homemakers. These ideas are old but they still are quite common in many aspects of society today, which is also why I made this post, because it seems that this could one of the reasons that Arya and Dany are disliked so much. I also wanted to show that Margaery, while different, definitely fits into Sansa’s femininity, and I see hardly any hate posts about her. 

So, to conclude, Sansa, the Traditional Femininity earned her praise and allowed her to rise up the ranks, but also left her passive and naive, when she was younger, because of the shelter her privilege gave her (the privilege I refer to is the respect and admiration of her friends and older women in her life, something Arya did not have due to her lack of talent/interest in feminine duties). Margaery used Traditional Femininity as a cover which allowed her to orchestrate her own ambition and desires, while subtly manipulating those around her. Daenerys used strength to intimidate her enemies and generosity to gain her friends, but these qualities drew a lot of criticism to her character. Arya is similar - she faces criticism for not being ‘a real woman’ (which I have seen people say). None of these characters are at fault for how they are written and the consequences that result from their characterisation, but it is us, as an audience, to recognise these differences between characters especially in regard to how we view women, and how they influence our view of the characters. 

[ansheofthevalley]

Things about the finale that someone needs to explain them to me because I👏DO👏NOT👏UNDERSTAND👏

Jon defending Daenerys’s actions when it was established in previous seasons that he viewed death by fire as something cruel

Jon defending Daenerys when it was established in the previous episode that he was siding with her out of fear

Tyrion being the voice of reason, when he’s been fucking up BIG TIME since the beginning of season 7

Tyrion saying to Jon “I know you love her”, when, again, it was established that he didn’t want to have a relationship with her and that he was actually afraid of her

Dany being warm towards Jon, wanting him to “build the new world” with her, when in the previous episode she thought him a traitor and saw past his “my Queen” BS

The fact that Drogon became an extremely intelligent beast all of the sudden, burning the IT, as if he understood that it was the pursuit of power that killed his mother, and not Jon, who was standing right there looking guilty af

Why did Yara defend Daenerys? She was captured by Euron and Dany didn’t give zero fucks about her nor Ellaria. It was her brother that had to go rescue her, the same brother that considered Jon and the Starks family

The nameless dornish prince. Don’t get me wrong, the fact that D&D remembered Dorne’s existance is miraculous and something to be celebrated, as they managed not to fuck it up for once. But who the hell is he? Is he a Martell? Is he Quentyn? Or a nameless stand-in? Is he a bastard? WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED IN DORNE AFTER ELLARIA AND THE SAND SNAKES KILLED DORAN AND TRYSTANE? WHO ENDED UP IN CHARGE? WHAT HAPPENED TO HOUSE MARTELL? IS IT ALIVE? OR IS IT ANOTHER HOUSE THAT IS IN CHARGE NOW? WHAT THE FUCK HAPPENED IN DORNE?!

Who freed Edmure? Was is the northern forces led by Sansa as they were traveling south for the Dragonpit meeting? Or was he freed during the events of season 7 after Arya avenged the Red Wedding? WHAT HAPPENED in THE RIVERLANDS?

How much time has passed since Jon killing Dany to the Dragonpit meeting? I guess it was some considerable time, given that Sansa has rallied “thousands of northmen”. What’s the state of Westeros by that time? How are the different kingdoms holding up? The Riverlands were the most affected by the wars, so again, WHAT HAPPENED? Last time we saw Dorne, it was in the brink of anarchy. HOW DID THE NAMELESS PRINCE END UP AS PRINCE? The Kights of the Vale have been in Winterfell since the season 6 finale. What was happening in the Vale? WHAT HAPPENED AFTER LITTLEFINGER’S EXECUTION? DID SWEET ROBIN WISE UP? IS HE FINALLY ACTING AS LORD?

Why are Brienne and Davos there? Are they just advisors or are they representing the region they’re from? If they’re there just as advisors, why do they get a vote?

Why do the Unsullied have the city? What remains of it for them to benefit from it? KL is a pile of ashes, corpses and ruins.

Why does Tyrion, a prisoner, get to say anything, let alone propose a new ruling system?

Why would Dorne and the Iron Islands (especially the Iron Islands) not fight for independence, when the North was granted theirs? One of the major drives for the Iron Islands plot was independence from the IT. Dorne has a history of independence too. Why would they vote for a new ruler, when they were established to want to be ruled by their own?

Tyrion gets to walk free of punishment? After he had a hand in the attack of KL? After he admits to kinslaying and killing his lover? He’s responsible for bringing Dany to Westeros, which brought ruin and death. And his punishment is being Hand of the King?

The small council. Bronn as Master of Coin?! Davos as Master of Ships? Sam as Grand Maester while he’s just a dropout of the Citadel? The only thing that makes sense is Brienne as Lord Commander, but she’s sworn to Sansa. Did Sansa release her from her duty?

Why is there a Night’s Watch? The dead are gone. The Free Folk and the Northmen proved they could live in peace. There are no more threats north of the Wall. It simply has no reason of being. So why does Bran send him up there? Why do they need to keep sending men to the Wall?

Why, after the whole “the pack survives” speech, is the pack separated? Why couldn’t Sansa and Arya stay together at Winterfell, one as Queen and the other as Lord Commander of the Queensguard? Or why couldn’t Jon be sent up North to Winterfell, just forbid him of using the Targaryen name, keep him a bastard, and he’s just at the beginning, but at least he’s home? What’s the whole point of “the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives” if the wolves end up separated and alone?

I NEED TO UNDERSTAND. SOMEONE PLEASE HELP ME UNDERSTAND

[anxiangfromweibo]

The best explanation of who should be king after Jon killed Dany

OK guys, let’s assume that Dany did get mad, and Jon did have to kill her for peace. Let’s assume all of these crazy shits (but probably truly to the original book although GRRM would definitely do it much better and more persuasive than D&D) actually happened, then what next?

As in Westeros, what is the most important thing when people are talking about monarchy and thrones?

Still, blood and ancestry.

So, as Dany being killed, and Jon killed her to lose his right as a sinner, who is the next to the throne? A truly reasonable king who will persuade every man and woman in Westeros, and we know they are not easy to be persuaded, definitely will not be by the shit show D&D’s Tyrion gave in S806?

Gendry Baratheon, that’s it.

He is not only the only heir of Robert Baratheon, the last real king in Westeros, but he is also the last relative of Dany and Jon, as his great grandmother (Robert’s grandmother) is a Targaryen.

Gendry is strong, and he is one of the true heroes in the war with the Night King which saved everyone in the world. He marched beyond the wall with Jon, saved everyone in the group when they were surrounded by the wrights (although that running part is crazy and nonsense), created all of the dragon glass weapons to help Arya save every single fxxking living in this world (imagine without the weapon he made, Arya will be all dead before she can kill the Night King). After the war ended, Dany legitimated him by herself and everyone supported this decision (probably the best decision in the whole Season 8). He received Storm’s End not only by his blood, but also by his contribution. Everyone knew him as a strong and brave man, a fighter who stood at the very front of the war with the Night King when it began, and stood until the very end. Everyone knew it and they respected him deeply for this!

Also, Gendry is one of the small folks. He grew up in flea bottom. He will truly understand the life and pain of the ordinary people in this land (and Ser Davos as well)? Ser Davos should be his hands, because only they knows what the real disaster looks like to the small folks when the highborns played their game of thrones. The two of them will really care about their people, and give them peace and mercy they deserved.

Actually, this is exactly the ending of Wars of the Roses, which is the prototype of ASOIAF. At the end of the war, Henry VII from Lancaster married Elizabeth of York. Henry VII himself is not a bastard, but his mother’s great grandfather is a bastard son of John of Gaunt, who is a son of Edward III of England. So actually Henry VII is from a royal bastard family who happened to be the king by his blood because everyone in front of him died in the war.

Sounds familiar, isn’t it?

And why North wants to be independent? Why? North never wants to be independent until Robert Baratheon died and Ned Stark was beheaded. Ned was always loyal to Robert. Why Sansa still wants to be independent if Robert’s son takes the throne? Ned and Robert will be rolling in their graves, for sure! Sansa is ambitious, but she is not a betrayer or fool. Why North NEEDS to be independent, anyway? After a huge war and long winter, North already lost many men and people got starved, still independent? Why?

Not to mention that Gendry Baratheon will only marry Arya Stark of Winterfell, as his queen.

Yes, Arya and Gendry will marry. Arya is a strong and independent woman, a queen, and a ruler. She is not some heartless assassin or crazy explorer who comes out of nowhere (although it sounds cool, I admit). When she was young, she asked her father that if she could become a lord, after Ned told her that she could only be a lady, she denied that. She denied to become a bloody useless lady because all she wanted to be a lord who holds power herself. She will make sure that happened eventually instead of running away from her homeland to escape from the reality in which women cannot be treated as equally as men. Arya will fight for this unfairness instead of runaway!!!

Arya’s idol is Queen Nymeria, not Christopher Columbus! She will become a strong queen who lead the country and her pack to make this world a better place! She will make sure every girl in Westeros have the equal right to receive education like boys, and she will protect the right of every woman to choose their own life instead of being traded by their fathers and brothers. Arya is similar to Lyanna, and Lyanna fell in love with Rhaegar and gave birth to Jon. Even Arya's wolf, Nymeria, is ruling her own wolf pack as the queen. Why Arya will leave by herself alone, why?

And who will be better than Gendry, to support Arya as the real queen of the seven kingdoms? Who?

It was Gendry who knew the true-self of Arya from the very first day they met each other. It was Gendry who stood up for her when she was only a beggar boy to him. It was Gendry who protected her and being protected by her all the way along. It was Gendry who built up the weapon for her and admired her by her sharpness and power, besides her beauty. Gendry knows her, better than anyone else in this world. And Gendry loves her for who she really is, for her heart and soul. Their love is pure and beautiful. They stood together since their childhood, through the war with the Night King, and until the last war. They deserve each other so much!

Actually if you see the poetic rhythm behind this deeply, you will find:

Gendry’s path is from the Smith, to the Warrier, and eventually to the Father (king).

Arya’s path is from the Maiden, to the Stranger, and to the Mother (queen), eventually to the Crone (when she gets old).

The story of them two stand for the seven gods of this land. Who will be better rulers of the Westeros than them?

Also they both have miracles. Gendry’s blood killed three kings, and Arya killed the night king by herself. Even for Dothrakis, they will be accepted since they are both strong and full of God’s miracle.

Yes, they are strong, young, energetic, and full of life and potential. They will create healthy and beautiful children to inherit them. Comparing with them, Bran is much weaker physically, has less life, and will have no heir! Bran is the 3-eyed raven, who represents the Old Gods of ice, relating with coldness and death. Who will become better rulers for Westeros people? Life or death?

So, what the court will be like? If Dany died, Jon left, Gendry and Arya become king and queen?

Hand of the King: Ser Davos (for sure)

Lord Commander of the Kingsguard: Ser Brienne of Tarth (she started from House Baratheon and ends up with House Baratheon, don’t forget, Gendry looks exactly like Renly)

Master of Coins & Warden of the West: Tyrion Lannister (who else)

Master of Ships: Yara Greyjoy (who else)

Master of Laws: Edmure Tully (the book mentioned that he actually cared about his people, when no other lords did)

Master of War: not many good choice left, maybe Bronn, I guess?

Grand Maester: not sure whom but not Sam, the young deserter of Citadel

Warden of the South: Samwell Tarly

Warden of the East: Robin Arryn, assisted by Yohn Royce

Warden of the North: Sansa Stark

And…

Master of Whisperers: Brandon Stark (who else)

That’s it. I call this the endgame. No else.

[ladyandtheghost]

The code word is “family”: A recap of 8x02

The Red Queen and the White Queen: 

If I’m delusional at this point, then so be it, but if I still needed convincing of Political!Jon, this scene convinced me. Because Sansa figured it out. Oh my God, she figure it out! You can see the exact moment of it on Sophie’s face. After all the talk and demonstration of Sansa’s intelligence last episode, it made all the sense in the world that Sansa would work it out herself what Jon is actually doing. And it almost makes you feel a bit sorry for Dani when she opens her heart and says kind of jokingly “Tell me who manipulated whom?” and the penny drops for Sansa. You can see it in her eyes, her weird giddiness. Sansa does not like this woman, why on earth would she smile and laugh if not a new realization that is playing out in her head?

It was also interesting how Dani tried to become all sisterly, thinking she could bond with Sansa over “boy talk” - and Sansa laughs but then drops the act and talks “real politics” - which not only shows that Sansa is a strategist and future-oriented, but she also just called out Dani on her argument that they are both women in politics who want to be taken seriously. 

This is your family, Theon: 

I don’t know how Sophie does it, but every reunion that Sansa has with literally any character that Sansa cares about is a 100% tear-jerker. And this was no exception: it was emotional and beautiful and pure. 

I can totally see people shipping them and it’s not an outlandish idea or notp for me or anything, but I felt the background of the scene was not so nuch meant to launch a romantic ship, it was actually far more powerful than that...

Because it was about family and about politics at the same time (the two things Sansa excels in). 

The entire set up of the scene was perfection: The red queen and the white queen, both emerging from the library after their tense conversation and at this moment - and omg this is so fantastic - we see the exact difference in how the two women/queens are being shown as opposites: 

Theon dutifully kneels in front of “his queen”, the gesture that she always demands from all her subjects, the gesture that she has burned people for refusing to perform - but Theon’s heart is not in it. 

Then he ignores Dani and addresses Sansa, asks to fight “for Winterfell”, for House Stark and they embrace and he is so happy to be “home” and “safe” and “loved” and “missed” and this is his family. 

It’s like a mother welcoming her lost child back home in her arms: essentially what a “beloved queen” is seen as - a mother to her people. “Mhysa” failed at that. Sansa is the queen and ruler beloved by her people.

And Dani notices. She sees “her” bannerman’s loyalty to another powerful woman and she is not pleased...

Theon wanting to fight ”for Winterfell“ - after the convo about the North two minutes earlier -  this is another blow for Dani, who made a pact with the Greyjoys to fight for her, and “for the throne“

Theon and Sansa represent the ideal ruler/bannerman situation: the bannermann comes before you, pledges themself to you, asking “if you'll have me“ because they love and respect and want to serve you - which is the complete opposite of how it works for Dani.

This is a bond that lasts. Sansa will never fear betrayal from someone who asked to serve her. 

Their shared trauma and Sansa being Theon’s redeption has forged this beautiful and strong bond. It has no sexual undertones imo (though people who ship it might disagree which is of course understandable) 

Rather it’s a mirror opposite of the strong bond Sansa has with Jon which is charged with UST and “subtext” 

Theon also represents the brother Sansa needs, with Robb gone, Bran “gone” and replaced by the 3ER and things being all “complicated” and tense with Jon...

Jon is also somewhat “gone” in this episode, though neither Sansa nor Dani understand why. 

And they are not stopping at that: where do we find Sansa during the last hours before the battle? Not drinking and warming her butt in front of the roaring fire like the others - nope, Sansa is outside in the cold with her people, eating the stuff that everyone else eats, spending time with the one “brother” she has left who came back for her and it’s yet another indicator that Sansa would be a ruler “for the people”

RMS Gendrya sailing strong: 

Arya “perving” on Gendry first half of the episode, effectively reversing the “male gaze” and her taking charge in their relationship was great.  The only thing is - now I’m scared, like really scared one of them will die. Or both? Urgh I’m getting Tonks/Lupin flashbacks - it’s never good for people to be happily in love before a battle. But I also loved how Gendry worried about her, literally pissed off that she would put herself in danger. And in going with the theme of family for this episode, one of the iconic moments of this couple was when Arya told Gendry: “I could be your family.” and Gendry was right, he is not her family, she is his “lady” and he is her lover...

The Hound and his pup: 

...however Arya did seek out someone who sees her as his family. The only thing that really comes to mind re: Sandor is that this sealed the deal on San*san happening or not. I had a feeling they would not let Sansa and him interact and rather choose the less squicky, more popular relationship of Sandor and Arya shine through. Arya *is* the Hound’s redeption arc. Just like Sansa is Theon’s. 

That super *awkward* family reunion: 

Dani’s reaction was SO predictable, it’s amazing. People actually fantasized that Dani would not mind so much, that she would actually be happy to have her “family” and another Targ by her side. Yeah, fat chance. The only thing on her mind now is that that Jon has the higher claim. 

Also: Jon spending his last night down in the crypts with his mother is so poignant it hurts. He always wanted to know her, he always wanted to see her face, so he stands there just looking at it the night before he might be taken from this world again. Somehow this was also an interesting parallel to Sansa and Theon and about being accepted as family. He told Dani about his mother, then it was revealed that she is his aunt, his closest(!) living (female) relative. 

Jaime, Braime (plus Tormund):

I knew Jaime would be accepted by Sansa - because of Brienne - and just like Theon, Jaime is another addition to Sansa’s Queen’s Watch. Dani looking pissed about it was literally channeling Cersei (if only she knew). 

Poor Tormund, he is so gone on her and he just wanted to be around her. Again, I’m scared shitless for every single character in that room around that fire and if the “knighting” scene is the best we will get from Braime, I will riot. 

A Bear Island family reunion: 

We finally got some Mormonts reunited. Jorah worrying about his little cousin but also respecting her for fighting and Lyanna wishing him good fortune and owning him as “cousin” was also a nice touch. Jorah still has a home in the North and a family. Sam reminded him of that when he spoke of Jeor and gave him his own father’s sword. They both lost their fathers before they could make them proud or forgive them/or be forgiven. 

Alys Karstark - everywhere!:  

Yes, I’m back on my bullshit. But seriously, they were parading her around all episode. They placed her here, places her there, always somewhere in camera frames or shots, Why? She doesn’t speak, her presence doesn’t serve any purpose. Unless we should just get a good look of that “other” red-headed girl, aka Fake!Sansa. 

Davos and Shireen's little girl (ghost):

That little girl with the scarred face killed me - just like she killed Davos. I'm tearing up just thinking of her. And Gilly was so sweet, so instinctively maternal, and Davos looked like he's slowly dying inside. Perhaps we were meant to read this as somehow Shireen's spirit could be felt through this girl and she was there to tell Davos that she will be ok. Idk but I'm crying...Shireen was Davos’ beloved child, his family after he lost his son, and nothing will ever change that! 

Jon’s other family (no, not the dragon one): 

There was even less “action” in this episode, but a lot of emotion. Except from one quarter: Jon, who completely isolated himself from his family - but found solace with his other family, i.e. his “brothers” - Sam, Edd, Tormund. And they recalled Grenn, their lost brother. 

On the whole, the episode is a prime example of the calm before the storm...next time, shit’s going down. 

[esther-dot]

Dany is a villain (and it isn’t sexist to say so)

This is in response to your post @tatticstudio55 The original by @thewokedragon was getting unwieldy with all of our reblogs so I’m beginning a new one. You don’t have to respond or if you want you can make your own and just tag me, I don’t know the Tumblr etiquette, but a lot of us use our phones and that baby was just way too long for comfortable scrolling.  

So, just to clarify, zero part of me feels the need to rain on other people’s parades. I only reblogged initially because it was in the Jonsa tag, and I felt like a Jonsa should explain our POV. I don’t like Jonerys, but if you like it, that’s fine. I’ll studiously avoid it, you can revel in it, and we can both be happy. I only got involved because the charge of sexism was being leveled at people I like and respect and it was being thrown in my face each time I looked in the Jonsa tag. I think it’s easy to be very free with calling people sexist, and I reblogged OP a second time trying to talk about that idea a bit.

Regardless, this is entertainment, we should only do this if it is fun, and because of how s8 went down, it was fun for no one. I feel awful for Bran fans, Dany fans, Jaime fans, Sansa fans, Jon fans etc etc. These characters all deserved better writing. There is very little you could say in criticism of D&D that I would object to, but, that does not mean that Dany’s villain arc is due to sexism or was a result of writing to help the male characters. In fact, my response was trying to point out that rather than any of it benefiting Jon, it was all in service of the desire to make Dany breaking bad a surprise. There is sexist writing in ASOIAF, there is sexist writing in GoT, there is sexism in the fandoms for both, but it doesn’t follow that the decision for a female character to break back is motivated by sexism.

I think it's very important that women embrace a wide variety of representations of women in media, not just nice ones, not just the ones who represent us as an individual. In GoT alone I like Sansa, Arya, Brienne, Missandei, Yara, Cat, Cersei, Olenna, Dany etc etc. But that doesn’t mean I agree with them or think they’re always right. I sympathize with them, I enjoy them, but I can still say they’re wrong. I can still say, here’s the line you crossed and when you crossed it. We should definitely criticize sexism in entertainment, but just because we don’t like how a female character is portrayed or a female character’s fate, doesn’t mean it is sexist. Criticism is one thing, objecting to a character's nature because she's a woman seems like we're getting awfully close to reverting to when a woman in media could only be one thing.

The initial post was making an assertion that our theories were sexist because they ignored who Dany was in order to focus on a male character. And I argued that because we understood who she was and where she was going, we understood the foreshadowing from the books and saw it being implementing (badly, but it was there) in the show, we knew where her story was going and come s8, we were right. As badly written as it was, the reality is that many Dany fans missed the fact that her thirst for power drowned out her desire for family, peace, and home. Now, there was disingenuous writing along the way, but I actually think most of it was in an effort to keep you thinking Dany was a hero when she wasn’t, not making her worse than she is. They hinted that Bran and Sansa might be villainous, they made Jon a traitorous idiot, all in service of the surprise. Dany wasn’t the only character that suffered in s8, and the one that suffered the most was Jon because he didn’t even have an arc. It wasn’t sexism that caused this mess, it was sacrificing a good story and good characters for a stupid rug pull. That was my point.

If you like Dany, and understand her differently than me, fine. I don’t go into the Dany or Jonerys tag because I don’t want to see justifications for her actions, and I don’t feel the need to tell you what to do, to tell you what to think, or to tell you what I think of your theories. Not only do I not read that stuff, I don’t post in your tags. It’s a tv show, and we don’t need to argue about it. But, here we are. So, my view is that heroes don't have to be perfect, but motivations and goals matter, and I don't think we were ever intended to accept Dany's quest as innately good, and as her cause requires the deaths of more and more people, I think we were supposed to wake up and realize this isn't right, instead of rationalizing it all as the necessary price for the greater good. And yes, I understand that your stance is they misrepresented her in the show, but I think it's because they loved her, they wanted her to win, she (+dragons) were financially very important to the show, so, instead of giving us the story that we should have gotten, they were nicer to her than they should have been. 

Dany is coming to conquer Westeros with WMDs. Her ambition is in direct conflict with what the Starks want. Their father fought to overthrow the Targaryens, their brother fought for Northern independence. Dany has been established as their enemy before they’ve ever met. In their story, Dany was/is/will be a villain. This is why the “the villain is the hero of the other side” is such an amazing idea. You can create characters who win the audience’s sympathy and affection and allow their experiences the shape them and give them motivations and then when they meet, instead of seamlessly folding together to suit the audience’s desires for them to do so (an idea Martin has criticized), there is conflict, struggle, victory, and defeat. It’s a great idea to force your audiences to have conflicting loyalties and sympathies so even in victory there is suffering and even in defeat there is success. I love that idea. Dany is a villain in the Stark story, the Starks (whether it be Sansa or more exclusively Jon in the books) will be a villain in her story. We got a shitty, shitty version of this in the show, but that is the story. 

Dany comes to Westeros claiming she is the rightful heir to the 7K because its her birthright. Well, Dany’s absolute belief in hereditary claim only extends to herself because in s8 she doesn’t care about Jon’s claim, only her own. And we knew she would view him as a threat and not honor his claim because Dany doesn’t actually believe in the birthright stuff. It’s a self-serving excuse to conquer a continent. How do I know? Because her brother was the rightful heir (as far as she knew), and she decided he wasn’t a dragon, wasn’t fit to rule. Do I care her brother died? No, he was disgusting and deserved it, but that doesn’t change the fact that Dany didn’t consider herself obligated to honor hereditary claim when it was a threat to her, but she sure expected everyone else to accept it even if she was a threat to them. If you step outside of the POV trap, Dany’s hypocrisy is evident from the beginning of the story. The shit she pulled in s8 is embedded in her character from s1 because this is who she is.

If you take a step outside of her POV, and look at things objectively, you realize, we were being played from the beginning. Dany wasn’t deliciously evil from day one, she’s not Ramsay, but she has been taking steps toward darkness since the day we met her. We’re the frog in the water who doesn't know it’s getting hotter until we’re cooked. Think about Drogo. We sympathize with Dany’s decision to kill him because it’s presented as a mercy killing, but this is from her perspective. I’m not sure that it was necessary to kill him at all. We think it is because we’re accepting Dany’s version of events, but we can easily view this in a less favorable light. Everything she’s done can be reinterpreted this way. The best example of this is Mirri Maz Duur. In Dany’s version, she’s a villain, but flip the script and think about it from the other perspective. She didn’t do anything wrong. Her people were attacked by Dany’s people, she was raped, and yet, she tried to help Drogo, she warned Dany about the magic, she told Dany not to come into the tent, then she was burned alive. In her story, she’s a victim of Dany. In her story, Dany is the villain.

So, I don’t buy this idea that everyone is going darker and somehow that lessens the significance of Dany going darker. Dany has always been self-serving. I’m not saying devoid of good intentions, but just because she convinces herself of her good motivations doesn’t mean I need to ignore the other side of what she is doing. The distinction between her and someone like Jon is that Jon denies himself the things he wants (Ygritte, Winterfell etc) keeps sacrificing what he wants to hold onto his morals, to adhere to standards and ideals, to serve a greater good. Dany justifies her actions and convinces herself that they are good, that she is right. She is her own standard which is convenient because that means she’s never wrong. in the show, Jon kept working harder and harder to preserve life, whereas Dany was walking in the opposite direction, justifying more and more violence and death in order to get what she wants. 

And Martin writes psychologically/emotionally compelling characters, he isn’t gonna flip a switch and fundamentally alter characters. We can track the progression and struggle for each. What Dany was in s8 has been foreshadowed, and it is what Martin is gradually walking Dany towards, and it is totally within character for her if you realize that what she is has always been there, it’s just not called out because we’re being manipulated by forced perspective. As much as I sympathize with and pity Dany, even hoped that she is other than what she is, Dany has two selves and they're irreconcilable. Dany chose to be mother of dragons. She can’t also be mother of people. She’s going to sacrifice half of herself on the altar of getting what she wants.

Personally, I would have preferred Dany accidentally setting off Wildfire in KL and that being the main cause of civilian causalities. They wanted to make the point that she was a tyrant and went about it in the most overbearing way possible, and I wish they had made it more intimate. Let Dany conquer the city, but not burn the entire thing to hell. And then bring out the citizens and tell them to bow and have one person refuse in an echo of the scene after the loot train attack. She burns that one person. Jon watches. She can then say, “summon the Lords and Ladies of Westeros to kneel. Bring me Sansa.” And then, Jon killing her is less about Dany being a cartoon villain who wants to burn the world, and it simply comes down to Jon choosing his family/Sansa over Dany. I actually hope the whole thing will be much more morally grey in the books. I didn’t like 8x05 or the finale, and I don’t need Jon Snow to remain pure. I am totally happy with Jon as an anti-hero. The point isn’t that we have wholly evil on one side and wholly good on the other, but I’m not interested in making false equivalencies either.

But yes, Dark Dany/Dany blowing up KL predate the essays, and I’ve rarely seen anyone use them as the foundation of the argument in regards to Dany, they’re just referenced because Martin said they were good. And no, the people you’re referencing wouldn’t be getting hate because they’re still arguing that Dany is somehow a hero even if she’s involved in roasting hundreds of thousands of people. Which, if that’s how you want to envision things, go ahead, but to me, I see this as part of her progression, not an oopsie. Therefore, I don’t read their stuff anymore, I never engaged with them. I do some stuff on Quora, but mostly stick to Tumblr where I can curate my experience to Sansa fans/Jonsa people because I’m not here to try to convince people they’re wrong, but I’m also not here to be offended and appalled. I don’t even go into the GoT, ASOIAF, Sansa, Daenerys, or Jon tags because I just don’t need to be creeped out and disturbed every day. While we can sympathize with Dany because of the shit she’s been through, I’m not gonna turn my brain into mashed potatoes in order to defend her actions as right when I have a moral compass that says they aren’t.

I had someone post angry comments on a fic saying what’s wrong with Jonsas is that we’ve been saying Dany is Darth Vader all along when she was really Anakin until 8x05 and maybe that’s the problem. I see her as struggling with the darkness a lot longer than that and by the time she gets to Westeros, she’s going to have moved from “villain origin story” to having been swallowed by her darker self. And I don’t mean marching around like the fantasy version of Hitler, Martin is too good of a writer to strip her of humanity, but it’s our job as savvy readers not to let her humanity trick us into justifying everything she does. If we had been with Cersei every step of the way, witnessed her neglect, witnessed her heartbreak, witnessed her abuse, then it would be tempting to be led by our sympathy to justify her actions, but even if I like her, what she does is still wrong, she is still a villain. Even only meeting her as an adult, and having her framed as a villain, I still liked her, but I wanted her to die because that’s how this story goes. Evil will be defeated, even if evil doesn’t call itself evil, even if evil has suffered, even if evil has a human face. Even if evil is sometimes right, even if it has done good things. Even if it isn’t unadulterated but broken, defeated goodness. Even if we love it. 

As for what D&D say, I disregard their interviews and the scripts except to gripe about it because it just makes no sense. What they say doesn’t correlate to what we saw on our screens which contradicts what’s in the scripts and all the actors have a different take, and I think there are a lot of reasons for this, but in the end, it’s entirely unhelpful to listen to them because like their writing, they’re disingenuous. They ran two or three versions of characters and didn’t firmly settle on one in s8. I don’t know if in the books Dany goes mad or if she becomes ruthless because you’re right, the show failed to convey a coherent narrative.

They certainly wanted us to think that she realized the people would never love her, that they would choose Jon given the chance, that’s the parentage reveal/her jealousy in 8x04/her face as you hear the people calling to Cersei in 8x05. The people view her as a monster, so she becomes the monster because they’ll never love her. I agree that they should have included a shot of the people reacting to her/her reacting to their perception of her to visually communicate this idea. Knowing what D&D say they were saying is entirely different than them showing us. I felt like they definitely left room to view this as a “Mad Queen” turn rather than ruthless conqueror, and I really hope Dany’s endgame isn’t madness. I’d hate that. I think D&D left things to Martin to reveal, whether as a favor, because he hasn’t decided, or due to incompetence I couldn’t tell. 

So really, I do agree that Dany was kinda a metaphor instead of herself in the finale. They wanted to moralize to the audience using her as a lesson, and it was painful. But, we have a fundamental disagreement about what/who Dany is. They opted to reduce Dany to a “tyrants are bad” moral when I think the tragedy is that Dany didn’t have to be, but she chose and kept choosing a path that led her there. I think “the lesson” is that monsters aren’t born monsters, they’re self-made. The opposite is true too, heroes aren’t born heroes, they become them. Sansa is the counterpoint to Dany in the show and the animosity directed at her by many Dany fans is why I view their claims of sexism with a lot of incredulity. We got a female hero. She didn’t lead armies or give inspiring speeches or ride dragons, but she was there. Just because the female character people wanted to believe in fell doesn’t mean that was due to her gender. It was due to her mistakes, just as the fact that Sansa ended the series sitting on a throne was due to her decisions. 

As for crucifying the masters in the show, I thought that was the writers’ way of acknowledging Dany’s violence and failure to implement justice while still leaving room for the audience to view her as a hero, whereas if they had shown her worse acts, like, ordering the slaughter of every male of a socioeconomic class, the jig would have been up. If that played on our screens, the audience would no longer have seen Dany as a hero, because while it's easy to ignore the reality of what is happening when it's not images (after all, a tokar is what slavers wear so it’s easy to rationalize that decision when we only have words to contend with), if we had to watch Dany overseeing the death of the teenage boys wearing them, we wouldn't have been able to deny what she was. Because while she believes her cause is right and good, what is her quest to the life of a child? 

There is a reason there will be no Targaryen restoration. There is a reason Daenerys Targaryen will fall. It isn’t because she’s a woman. It’s because of what she has chosen to be. There's a reason that the Starks are the heroes. There is a reason that in the end it is the Starks who rule Westeros. It isn't their gender or their blood but their values. They do not want power, they fight to protect. They accept power as a duty, a burden. The Starks value life. The reason that many of us thought Dany was a villain is that she and Jon were running to opposite extremes on this issue. Jon was less and less able to take life, even when it was his own murderers, and Dany justified taking life more easily. There is a reason that the Stark men, Ned, Robb, Jon, are shown beheading people as their mores demand. There’s a reason Sansa cries as Littlefinger dies. Those scenes aren’t to make us immune to violence, they’re to show that while their laws, customs, justice demand death at times, taking a life weighs on them. They carry each death with them, in contrast to where Dany is heading, which is signified in the books by the fact that she can no longer remember a dead little girl's name. 

The show didn’t change things to make Dany harsher or more badass than she is, they changed things so that you could deny what she is. They conveniently left out the fact that she isn’t an abolitionist, that she permitted and then profited off of slavery. I understand that she says the right thing, but who cares about words when we can look at her actions? Dany spews a lot of nice rhetoric, and Dany believes it, she believes in her own goodness, but I don't. She's a hypocrite time and again. And, it's fine that she makes mistakes, that's what makes these characters feel so real, they're layered, they have flaws, but I thought she reached a turning point that she wasn’t coming back from much earlier in the show than her fans did, and I think that’s where we left her in the books. Think about her mantra. She isn’t going to look back. I think she has embraced her darker side, where she will give into her urges, and she will justify it, do worse, and justify that. I don’t think the show made her worse than she is, I think they hid the worst of what she was so they could have a surprise ending that wasn’t a surprise if you didn’t find ways to excuse her every action on the way there.

Even though that’s what I think, let’s say you guys are right though. Maybe the books will be kinder to Dany. Maybe book Dany is a hero, maybe she’ll have a grand romance with Jon before she dies a hero's death saving humanity. But if our heroes run around leaving the corpses of countless children in their wake as the cost of their ambition, I'm not sure that we should want them to be successful. I'm not sure that we should want them to survive. 

If our heroes aren’t thrust into war but pursue it, choose to wage it because they want power, if they choose to paint their road to victory with the blood of innocents, well, with heroes like those, who needs villains?