#asoiaf spec

[baleriontheblackkitten]

Correct correct correct! Also may I add: Maester Aemon, a character who Jon discovers being a Targaryen after knowing him for a while, who renounced his "Targaryenness" and claim to the throne as he felt he wasn't fit for it but his brother was better for the role. I absolutely expect Jon to have a similar endgame, renouncing the claim his Targaryenness would give him the right to and instead taking a step back to leave that claim to someone (his brother?) better suited. Except that, unlike Maester Aemon, he won't renounce his Targaryenness through joining the Night's Watch (which there won't be a need for anymore by the end of the series! Also the series highlights that the whole thing needs to seriously be reformed at the very least...) but taking on a different leadership role and getting married and fathering children in contrast to the vows of the Night's Watch.

GRRM’s inclusion of Mance Rayder among Jon’s expansive catalogue of father figures is a very clever one, beyond just being a retread of the fantasy protagonist gaining a temporary teacher who imparts wisdom then leaves. It’s the way Mance’s identity as father-figure and king play into Martin’s subversion and deconstruction of the secret prince trope. Because he is Rhaegar’s son, many of us would expect Jon to inherit the Iron Throne once his identity is revealed. After all, that’s the rule of the genre and Jon is as clear cut a fantasy protagonist as you can get in ASOIAF. But we’re five books into a seven-book series, and Jon is nowhere near the Iron Throne. Not only that, but he still doesn’t know who he truly is. Instead, he’s spent three out of the five books interacting with Mance’s kingdom, building their trust and becoming Mance’s spiritual heir. Jon even completes what Mance tried and failed to do when he manages to bring wildings south of the Wall and install some sort of working peace with the Watch. By the end of ADWD, Jon has pretty much become the de facto leader of the wildlings and there’s thousands more left to save. So if GRRM is to subvert the hidden prince trope in any way, it looks like he already has. Jon may not be the one to inherit Rhaegar’s kingdom at the end, but it sure looks like he’ll inherit all of Mance’s. And it’s quite clever to have the fantasy protagonist not take over his father’s kingdom by virtue of his birth, but instead rule a stand in’s by virtue of his actions.

[visenyaism]

house hightower did clearly learn from the dance of the dragons as demonstrated by Leyton Hightower deciding to let HIS weird lesbian daughter stay single and spend her time trying to learn how to do wizard spells in the garage with him instead of making her marry into the royal family. otto take notes

[eruherdiriel]

was looking for the exact wording of the "sun and the moon" quote about Arya and Sansa, and came across spec saying that Arya would kill Sansa, presented as a "mercy kill" (that's as far as I got before clicking the back button). Are those people on drugs. can you imagine having such a bad take.

I'm so glad I don't see this kind of stuff 90% of the time but ooohh man. This is worse than the curtain of light honestly.

[bylertruther]

the byIer fandom really is a hivemind bc every time i think i came up with a cool fic idea i'll eventually see posts or fics from other writers spring up showing tht we all had the same exact idea down to even the same exact nitty-gritty details and headcanons for them without ever interacting with each other at all. like... bro. 💀 We're Connected..

[hollowwhisperings]

My memories on the Starks & Lannisters of the Dance are very hazy, largely amounting to "Lannister Turncloaks, Starks were Team Black, Cregan Stark Scared KL into Lawful Neutrality". So while I can't add onto the Generational Parallels, I CAN see Other Character Parallels:

Jaime Lannister is in a VERY SIMILAR POSITION to Ser Criston Cole: Jaime, as a Knight Nerd, WOULD KNOW THIS.

HotD's portrayal of the Dance as a Lesbian Divorce Drama has blessed us with Alicent Hightower as the "Anti-Cersei": women who fulfil nigh-identical functions within the narrative (as-history-remembers it) but for very opposite reasons.

Daenerys is the easiest "Rhaenyra" but Daenerys isn't there for the War of the Five Kings: she's Busy Elsewhere.

The "Rhaenyra" role is not as neatly found as her contemporary "Criston" (Jaime), "Alicent" (Cersei) & "Aegon II" (Joffrey) counterparts but, overall, it's actually Ned Stark who fulfils her "role" as Rallying Point for ASOIAF's "Team Black". That Ned is a secretly treasonous dead man hilariously makes him even more suited to be the "Rhaenyra" of this latest Civil War, Martyrs of History as won by the war's sole survivors (AKA Ned's kids & his belatedly reformed enemies).

Ned was also (kind of?) Jaime's personal Cregan Stark at the end of [Ned's] Rebellion, the civil war prior to TWOTFK (which is technically Still Happening), and Dany is more accurately represented in that war (...as its Absent Viserys II).

Jaime, lifelong Knight Nerd, knows well the eerie resemblance he has taken to Ser Criston Cole: abetter in unlawful succession, Commander of the sitting Queen Dowager's armies but having sworn loyalty to the opposing Queen Dowager (Catelyn). In some ways, Jaime can be made into a contemporary Prince Daemon with Cersei as King Rhaenyra: this aligns with the Maesters' view of the Dance but HotD's Take on Alicent Hightower as the Anti-Cersei makes me enjoy how much she & Cersei have "Functioned" within the narratives of their Respective Succession Crises (i.e. starting & perpetuating them) and thusly members of "Team Green".

Jaime's character development has not actually gotten to "redemption" yet but his having one would drastically affect how this civil war will end: Bran vibes very much as a "Viserys II" (second sons long assumed dead, hope spots to their few surviving family members) though most of the surviving Starklings could (or already have) acted as Historic Peacemakers between Long Estraged Peoples.

Jon made peace between the NW & the freefolk, only to Die Mysteriously; Arya makes friends with anyone & everyone who is considered an "outsider" or "lesser class"; marriage to Sansa Stark is one of the easiest ways to unite Kingdoms, providing her existing [child] marriage to Tyrion is annulled); Bran or Jon could feasibly "resolve" the Conflict between the Others & everyone else peacibly (hopefully without twin marriage pacts between Ruling Families, given that all the Starklings save Jon are children).

Given how implicitly connected Jaime's Future is to that of Bran's, his "role" as Criston Cole will play out very differently (if only in Motivation) and that's without accounting for how Fellow Knight Nerd, Brienne, is implicitly tied to the Stark Sisters: Jaime and Brienne would both Know the precedents set in the Dance by Ser Criston (for good & ill); how devastating his Kingmaking was on the Realm & for such a unanimously misliked King; and how easily the children left surviving can & would be used by Lords scrambling for power upon most of their Political Competition wiping each other out. Brienne's surviving Winds would require Jaime to Start Redeeming Himself more seriously, lest her experiences turn her into another jaded "Sandor" (which Jaime, who sees his Younger & Innocent Self in Brienne, does not actually want).

Ultimately, the amount of intergenerational parallels of abuse & violence in ASOIAF, alongside its Thesis of "War Is Horrific", make it likely that this generation of Lannisters and Starks and "Targaryens" will Learn from the mistakes of their predecessors & actively "end" these Cycles of violence. Melting The Uncomfortable Chair seems a given but it's the Logistics of recovery that most interest me: Jaime is likely to be the Oldest Person at any peace talks (give or take Doran, the Blackfish, a Sand Snake or two, some of Robb's Loyalists, etc) having been "Too Unlucky To Die", and being Punished to Live, do Community Service & Babysit the survivors of his enemies.

In contrast, Tyrion seems very, very difficult to Redeem: he started as a "good guy", his traumas & his power grabs leading him further past Moral Ambiguity and into Gleeful Villainy. Tyrion's pride would have to suffer a horrific fall or his "success" come at an awful price (e.g. baby Tommen's life &/or King's Landing, a fellow Outcast he Actually Likes being gratuitously [Fridged], "reuniting" with his Even More Traumatised Child Bride & her Inevitable Rejection of him bc CHILD BRIDE).

Tyrion is an Adult in this setting, just like Jaime or Jorah or Jon Connington: they all have Fixations that drive them, traumas that shaped them, varyingly valid justifications for villainy (i am looking at YOU, Jorah)... and they are all have had (or are being set up to hold) Power over much younger characters, orphaned & desperately seeking a Mentor who won't Betray nor Attempt Romance With Them.

Cersei has never been "redeemable" (RIP Melara Hetherspoon) but she is capable of Genuine Goodness... probably (unintentionally? she's a Narcissist: selfless heroics is not her strong suit). I'm uncertain how willing she would be to "change" her "fate" as The Anti-Alicent in a Dance/2nd Conquest/Long Night/War of ?? Queens. Maybe she'll accept Myrcella as her "younger, more beautiful" usurper & realise she Doomed Herself (& countless others but pshht, Lions Care Not The Wellbeing Of [Antelopes]).

Hopefully Bran will be an Anti-Brynden - I made a meta post on "Jojen is Fine, Actually" but its focus was on all the ways Bran is being made into a new Brynden, his only Escape requiring External Influences (Meera with a Lighter; Jojen with Big Sad Eyes; Suddenly A Benjen; un/dead Jon or Catelyn; Meera with a flamethrower; realising he's eating Brynden Paste & that he keeps Breaking Those Taboos Man Must Never Break; Meera with a flintstone axe AND a lighter, etc). Uh. Meera is Kind Of Essential to the survival of Team Cave Kids? Bran just needs to Recognise that & stop seeing her as his Designated Love Interest (she's considered an Adult in their setting, being of age with Jon, & Bran isn't even 10 yet) but his Designated Adult. Meera's motivation is Jojen, Jojen's is Bran, Bran's was "flying" but then the Tree Cult started giving him narcotic Brynden Paste... it's little wonder GRRM is putting off Winds: his lack of Timeskip has severely limited his options in getting the primary cast within each other's geography, let alone realising their common plotlines.

Coldhands, Suddenly A Benjen, Ghost, Melissandre or Suddenly A Giant/Mammoth are kind of GRRM's only options to get Team Cave Kids out of slow & eldritch deaths. If Dany somehow beats Bran to Westeros, I would struggle to understand how he had even survived that long with the Tree Cult. It would be like Arya actually choosing to stay with the Murder Cult instead of Literally Any Alternative Safe Haven (my silver's on Sam, stopping over at Braavos post/mid-Euronpocalypse).

...but, uh, yes. PARALLELS. Ned would be hyperventilating at all his kids getting cast as Targaryens & at the Kingslayer being positioned to be a Criston Cole in their general direction.

JAIME LANNISTER ENDGAME SPECULATION: #2, "Jaime Goldenhand"

~ DEFINITELY spoilers, both book & That Dragon Show, and some diving into other theories in the ASOIAF theory iceberg ~

2. Jaime "Golden Hand"

- for Jaime's sins, he is "rewarded" with what he has always dreaded but has already demonstrated relative competence at: responsibility.

- We Don't Talk About The Dragon Show but its ending for Tyrion actually steals much from what has been foreshadowed for Jaime: Jaime, who has never wanted nor sought out any power save his sword arm, WOULD feel punished by a sentence of lifelong service to The Realm. His most heroic act made him reviled: his kingslaying was the beginnings of his blatantly undermining the stability of Westeros by cuckolding its king, causing a lasting succession crisis, and unwittingly stirring the winds of war in his recklessness & ignorance.

- furthermore, Jaime serving as BRAN STARK'S Hand? tbh, "King Bran" punishing Jaime by installing him as his Hand not only fits all the foreshadowing in their respective character arcs, it ALSO follows logically from their POV of their interactions' ripple effects unto Westeros. Jaime as Hand to King Bran is the ONLY setup of "Bran becomes king" that makes sense to me outside of "Dystopian Weirwood-Police State" Horror Endings or Jojen's filling the role (i don't subscribe to "Jojen Paste": its memetic status baffles me and, like, the 3EC is LITERALLY BECOMING A TREE? and House Blackwood canonically buries its dead beneath its dead weirwood tree, and WEIRWOODS ARE ALREADY PEOPLE: JOJEN'S ABSENCES ARE ALWAYS MEERA'S ABSENCES ANYWAY- *several more allcaps paragraphs*).

[heartofmortis]

✶ Lionheart

Prologue

Robb Stark x (Baratheon/Lannister!) Reader

warnings: none!

note: so this is also an oc fic on wp, but i wanted to try out something new! in rewriting to second person, some edits have been made. there will be no y/n, and there are other ocs in this fic (since that’s what i usually write) and reader does have some physical descriptions. // there is minor canon divergence regarding hotd/f&b here, which links to my other asoiaf fics and there are a couple of ocs mentioned in the chapter (hopefully that won’t be annoying lol).

word count: 2k

tag list: @houseofamidala @madeofstaardust @tojisrealwifey @justmymindandstuff (lmk if you want to be added of removed!)

You were four when blood first touched your innocent skin. Your skin was no longer pure, neither was your heart. All children learn the fragility of life in time, you learned of it through the sacrifice of a tiny bird.

The creatures always circled King’s Landing as vultures searched for the dead. “The little birds are always looking for trouble,” came Cersei Lannister’s warning in the castle gardens with you nestled close in your mother’s arms. “Watch your step or they’ll be waiting in your shadows all your life.”

When you were set down, your feet steady on the ground, you raced on ahead. Your long skirts clung to your little legs, blonde curls bounding behind you. The air was thick with sweet pollen and fruit, signs of a happy summer. Moss grew between the bricks on the cobbled ground, pushing the stone in uneven directions — you skipped over them easily, pausing to gaze at the bumblebees nestling inside tight flowerheads and the ladybirds crawling across bright green leaves. You wished it could be only you and your mother in the gardens forever. You slipped out of your mother’s line of sight to steal berries and press as many as possible into your mouth, licking sweet juice from your fingers to keep your dainty snack a secret.

Then you came to a sudden halt, almost tripping forwards in your haste, when you found your path blocked by a tiny bird — a bundle of brown feathers dappled with grey and white and red. Its body was horribly twisted, but it was still moving. You took the bird in your hands, scarlet smeared across your fingers. You did not want the poor creature to be damaged further. The bird squeaked desperately and tried to flap its broken wings.

You brought the bird against your chest, cupped with both of your delicate hands, and ran back across the path you had come down. You took the bird to your mother, who was quick to scold you for touching a dying animal. “But can’t the maesters help?” Your eyes were wide and glassy, mouth warped into a mournful frown. (Your mother always had the right answers — she was the smartest person in King’s Landing.)

Cersei laughed. It was not a cold sound, more of a marvel at her daughter’s naivety. “The Maesters can only help us, sweet girl. They cannot help a little bird.” They always look for trouble.

You huffed, deeming your mother’s response to be an unacceptable response. “Why?”

The Queen motioned for one of their guards to come over and take the bird’s frail body from your hands, which became a struggle with your reluctance. “We’re all built very differently. A dove is not a wolf, and a stag is not a lion.”

“But it will die!”

“All things do, eventually.” Cersei ushered forth two handmaidens that walked behind the two of you. “Now you have blood all over you — go and get cleaned up. There is no use in helping the dying while the living are still here.”

You walked with heavy steps back to the Red Keep, muttering about the unfairness of the bird’s fate — it was a baby, why could it not be saved? If all things die, why is life not more precious? Any day could be the last.

“Where are you scurrying away to, little doe?” Your father’s voice was a formidable boom when he caught you in the corridors, flanked by handmaidens, wandering towards your rooms.

You showed your father the specs of blood across your dress. “Mother says I have to clean up.”

Robert Baratheon laughed. He shooed away your company and picked his daughter up with one strong arm. “A little blood never hurts anyone. You’re a Baratheon, my stormbird. You’ll get used to blood in no time”

The King took you to the throne room. You liked it here: the tall ceiling, the ivy-strewn pillars, the warm glow of sunlight, and the Iron Throne. Robert took his seat and rested you on his knee. You stared around the room, you had never seen it from this angle before. Between the tower of swords from the first Dragon King, still sharp enough to tear you in half, it felt powerful to sit here. You could imagine hundreds of people knelt before them and understood why men spent their lives chasing power. (You felt like a true Princess.)

“This would have been your’s one day if your mother had not had that damn brother of yours.”

Your father’s voice was rough with bitterness. His words pulled you out of her daydream. Only a year younger than you, your brother, Joffrey, was a terror. Your mother doted on her children equally, but you knew your father had his favourite. You were secretly happy with it — the less time you spent with Joffrey pulling heads off flowers and doing worse, vicious things, the better.

“One day,” your King father continued, “you will marry a great lord, a good lord. But you should always have a place here, my daughter.”

/✿✿✿/

Robb Stark was eight when he learned what real summer felt like. In the aftermath of a rebellion in the Iron Islands led by his father and the King, Robb and his twin sister, Alys, travelled to King’s Landing with their father to attend Robert Baratheon’s Name Day celebration. Spring had passed and the snows around Winterfell were low. Robb spent half the journey complaining about how he wanted to ride his horse next to his father while their septa told him to pay attention to their lessons. Watching the country change shape along the Kingsroad did keep Robb moderately interested — glimpsing the lands outside of the North was rather novel. Alys shared Robb’s adventurous instinct and they ran amok, hiding between trees and tents of their father’s company every time they stopped for a meal. But there were only so many games two eight year olds could play.

For all Ned Stark had told his children about King’s Landing and the Red Keep, Robb found it all rather underwhelming. There was no grand welcome for the Starks when they arrived. The city streets were too busy and the air was too hot.

Robb and Alys were brought before the Iron Throne — the hideous, towering King’s Seat made with a thousand melted swords — to be presented to King Robert Baratheon, their father’s oldest friend. Robb was aware he had been named after the King (just as his half-brother Jon had been named after Jon Arryn, the Hand of the King). Perhaps Robb’s father saw greatness in his son’s future, a boy worth naming after a king. Robert Baratheon was not the formidable giant Robb had expected to meet. Robb could imagine the warrior king that had won the throne and broke the Greyjoy Rebellion and hoped he would never fight in a war.

The Starks were escorted to their guest rooms for the duration of their stay. Alys and Robb’s rooms lay next to each other. Before Robb could finish unpacking his chest, Alys snuck into her brother’s room. She laid back on his bed, Robb made a fuss when his sister got her boots on the sheets.

“I want to explore. Will you come with me?”

Robb did not hesitate before he nodded, a grin spread across his face. Unpacking was boring anyway.

The twins barrelled through red corridors, ducking under maids and Kingsguards. The castle was theirs for the taking.

The Red Keep was bigger than any of the Northern castles the twins had visited before, full of labyrinthine corridors. A maze without a centre for Robb — but Alys seemed to know where she wanted to be.

Robb and Alys were stopped in their tracks when Robb almost tumbled into a girl. She was their age, if younger by a few moons, dressed in pink and gold with dark blonde curls. A huge black cat with a grumpy expression was clasped in her arms. Alys recognised the girl first. Robb felt a winter chill blow through him, tethering him frozen in place. The girl was pretty like a colourful bloom in the snow. She looked at the twins, wide-eyed and curious. She held the kind of warmth the North only felt during fleeting spring days. Alys punched her twin brother in the stomach and Robb mimicked her bow.

You smiled, a pink glow on her freckle-dappled cheeks. “You must be the Stark twins. Father told me about you.”

“Can you take us to see the dragons?” Alys asked quickly, eagerly rocking on the balls of her feet. “I thought I knew the way but…”

You paused, bottom lip pulled between your teeth. The cat in your arms jumped free — he rounded the twins, giving judgemental looks, and brushed against Alys’s legs before darting away. “They’re all underground now,” you explained. “We aren’t supposed to visit them, but I know the way.”

It was evening by the time you and the Stark twins entered the cellar room beneath the castle. Golden hour light faded, leaving the underground room in growing shadows. Robb had not been as enthusiastic as Alys and Jon about House Targaryen in all their lessons, but his heart thundered in his chest, mouth agape when he saw the nineteen dragon skulls.

The smallest dragon skulls were even smaller than direwolves, tiny dog-sized creatures but their teeth were still dagger-sharp. As the three children ventured down the room, the dragons grew bigger. You explained that many of them were unknown. Robb wondered how magical it must have been to live centuries ago and see dragons patrolling the sky. The largest dragon skulls were those of Meraxes, ridden by Queen Rhaenys, Vhagar, ridden by Queen Visenya, and Balerion the Black Dread, ridden by Aegon the Conqueror. Most dragons have more than one rider, but later riders paled in comparison to the conquerors.

“This one is Vermax,” you told Robb, pointing to another dragon skull halfway down the room. “Ridden by King Jacaerys, First of his Name. He married a Stark. An Arya, I think.”

Robb turned to his sister to tell her that one of their ancestors had married a dragonrider, but Alys had stepped away. She was distracted by another dragon.

“That’s Syrax,” you said quietly to Robb. “She was ridden by Queen Rhaenyra Targaryen.”

Alys touched Syrax’s skull and smiled wistfully. “She was yellow.”

You tensed. “I don’t think we’re allowed to touch them. I’m not supposed to come down here after dark.”

Robb approached his sister, whose stormy eyes still gazed wistfully at the dragons, and touched her arm. “Let’s go to the kitchens. See if they have lemon cakes.”

Finally, Alys looked away and nodded. She cracked a smile. “But don’t tell Sansa — she would be upset if we had cake without her.”

Together, the children left the cellar room. Robb stared at the dragon skulls for as long as possible as you closed the door. To see a dragon fly over Winterfell… He sighed sadly and wished there was more magic left in the world.

You showed them to the kitchens. Alys skipped on ahead, wondering out loud about how wonderful it must be to live in the Red Keep and you were happy to fuel her daydreams. The three of you scurried up a spiral staircase, for once Robb did not challenge his sister to a race. Which was probably a good thing as Alys was ahead and she did not see him trip up the stairs. Robb threw his hands out, scraping his skin against the rough stone to catch himself. You looked at him and Robb turned red, embarrassed to make a fool of himself in front of the princess.

You helped him up. Blood from a small cut on Robb’s palm smeared onto your hand. “I’m sorry.”

“It’s okay. It’s only a little blood. Here–” You sat Robb down on the step and took the hem of your dress to dab away the blood.

Robb clenched his fist and moved away. “You’ll ruin your dress.”

You took his hand back, gently uncurling his fingers. “That doesn’t matter.”

You dabbed at the thin beads of blood, holding for a few seconds. You both waited as the blood stopped spilling. “I’ll ask one of the cooks to help you.” You stood and reached out to take Robb’s other hand. He took your hand gratefully and stood. “Don’t worry,” you added, “everything will be alright.”

[esther-dot]

Yeah I think part of the reason why the fandom is so vehemently against Jonsa is because most of the Jonsa shippers (the one who makes predictions, theorizing, analysis, etc) also support other unpopular theories such as Dark D*ny and that T*rion and the Starks will be enemies and other things that goes against the popular theories and reading kf the series.

I don't really have a solid opinion on how the story might go (besides that D*ny will never get the IT) but I think this all really shows that Jonsas in general just have a much different way of reading the series and understanding the themes and lessons GRRM put in the story than the rest of the fandom. They're the ones who GET what GRRM meant when he said he's a 'realistic romantic'. And they take GRRM's writing of punishing violence seriously and understand which characters will be the heroes in the end (hint: its not T*rion or the person who BURNED ALIVE A SLAVE IN THE FIRST BOOK)

This is why, regardless of how the story will end, I'll always support the Jonsa part of the fandom's theories, because they offer such a fresh and interesting look and insight into ASOIAF that you're not gonna get in the mainstream part of the fandom

(about this ask)

hint: its not T*rion or the person who BURNED ALIVE A SLAVE IN THE FIRST BOOK

Dany burning a rape survivor, a woman she took as a slave, alive, in calm, deliberate fashion really is a horrific scene. It says something awful about the fandom that if you conclude that’s saying something bad about Dany, you’re an outcast. I also think Dark Dany is much more obvious than King Bran which has been confirmed to be from Martin? So I truly do not understand the outrage at this point. I definitely think that's why many people hate Jonsas, but like, we didn't write that scene, we didn't make Dany use forced labor or make money from slavery, we didn't write her allowing the slaughter of teens, we didn't make her decide to conquer a continent. We're just saying it means something that Martin did!

From what I’ve seen, Tyrion was a huge favorite for book fans, Dany was far and away the most popular show character, Arya was popular with fans of both, so Sansa was just, kinda screwed by being at odds with them and for as long as I’ve been active, it’s an uphill battle for people to try to present a different reading on her. People wanted to vilify her to defend their fav and that means taking the worst perception of her rather than considering what is actually being said in her story, and Jonsas very much do take a totally different perspective on her. I find most, not all, but much of the hate comes from people who dislike her.

I'm with you though, despite what it means to be open about unpopular interpretations and theories, I prefer the Jonsa way of reading the story, our spec and fandom. I never would have gotten involved in fandom at all if it weren’t for Jonsas and their interpretations!

[transthadymacdermot]

Left image my art of Thompsons; right image a detail from "The Prince of Orange landing at Torbay" by Jan Hoynck van Papendrecht

Wip intro: Fire, Famine, & Slaughter

Genre: steampunk? kind of? but make it 17th century instead. also kind of similar to asoiaf in that it's spec fic but based heavily on a real historical event. oh and they have ice age fauna in this world too also

Progress: 1st draft

Content warnings: it's a story abt religious wars and all that implies. lots of death and gore and people being horrible to each other over pointless doctrinal disputes. etc

Ten years ago the citizens of the Commonwealth, a world power in a a seventeenth century-inspired steampunk (ish) alternate universe, rose up under the leadership of a rogue politician to kill their king. What followed was over half a decade of brutal military dictatorship, civil war, famine, plague, and general unhappiness for the population. Now the king has been secure in his restoration -- a move which has proved more popular in some sectors than others -- for four years, but lies on his deathbed, and his only successor is a cousin who worships an outlawed god and seems, to many, on the verge of plunging the country back into the chaos it fought so hard to escape.

When a former regicide hellbent on toppling the current regime accuses one of this new king's most controversial advisors of murdering a well-liked lord, war seems closer than ever. Republicans in the shadows, royalists ready to go to war, the aristocracy pulling knives over land, but the Commonwealth's parliament consoles itself with the fact that, after all, this tyrannical heretic of a king and his horrible advisors are but an anomaly -- the crown prince, who is a bit odd but who they all know and love, is nothing like that. Right?

Will shamelessly admit that this story is an attempt to write something which is to the glorious revolution as asoiaf is to the wars of the roses 👍 narrators under the cut; complete character list yet to come. title a placeholder I pilfered from a Coleridge poem ☝️

Marcus "Marc" Waring, Earl of Talbott -- (he/him) a dispossessed and very angry aristocrat from the Commonwealth's colony-member of Hieburne, who quite literally lost an arm and a leg in the civil war. A master swordsman and known manipulator.

John Thompsons -- (he/him) a regicide, pamphleteer, and vicious sectarian only alive for his intimate knowledge of and groundbreaking research on the mysterious ancient tech which keeps the Commonwealth's capital running. #1 hobby is destablising the monarchy; #2 hobby is psychologically tormenting Talbott.

Elizabeth Knox-Clifford, Duchess of Danforth -- (she/her) one of the most powerful aristocrats in the Commonwealth, first woman to be a member of the King's Closet (group of his closest advisors), dedicated to the stability of the country no matter what that requires.

Eleanor "Ellie" Foxe -- (she/her) a mildly unwilling member of a plot to systemically kill the entirety of Parliament in order to restore the absolute monarchy of the Commonwealth's past. Fanatically devoted to her cause and rather cutthroat, but more willing to negotiate than other members of the plot.

Joffre van Andrey -- (he/him) a visitor from the Commonwealth's ally the Risckan Confederacy, and advisor to the the king there, who just so happens to be the brother-in-law of the Commonwealth's own king. A very serious man who tries to do the right thing but usually has his schemes blow up in his face </3

[hollowwhisperings]

The points made here for King Bran also work for King Jaime because, thematically, "King Jaime" theories hinge on Bran acting as his Kingmaker.

(for one thing, most everyone set up to inherit power in Spring has sufficient motive to execute Jaime even if he ends up redeeming himself)

"Kingmaker Bran" seems almost certain, regardless of Who Survives to get stuck ruling the other survivors:

King Bran would be his own Kingmaker, likely through Jojen (who could do this dead or alive because Greenseer);

Bran Stark, as the Honorable Ned Stark's [male] Heir, would hold CONSIDERABLE political authority as one of the sole surviving scions of the Great Houses: currently, there is 1 Arryn (who may be a bastard but is definitely Doom-coded); 1 officially alive Stark (who is actually Jeyne Poole); 3 Martells (Doran, Arianne & Trystane, all varyingly coded for Doom); 2 persons named Tully (4 if Fair Walda & her babe survive); 1 Casterly-Lannister (Jaime, Tyrion's in exile); 2 Baratheons (Stannis & Shireen, both Doom-coded); and many highly flammable Tyrells (Willas might survive, bc Themes, but most seem Doomed via location). Bran Stark showing up, all Alive and Male, would rally all the Lesser Lords to overlook their ableism because their sexism, xenophobia & recent regional politics have made Bran (and possibly Willas) the only Lord left "worth" following.

due to being Ned Stark (& Catelyn)'s son and his Surviving, Bran would be considered "impartial". If the taboo on magic is gone (or 180'd back to "religious reverence"), Bran being a Greenseer would give him additional clout.

any surviving Targaryens, Baratheons, Tyrells or Lannisters hoping for a crown would need the backing of a Stark, that "oldest" line of kingship & the Wardens of Winter, to not get shot down immediately by xenophobic and war weary Lords. Even assuming Dany or Young Griff are "genuine" Targaryens of Westeros, they still grew up in Essos and came back with Foreign Armies: they need a Local Kingmaker who ISN'T a living scandal.

That is to say, the geographic and thematic aspects of Harrenhal and of Kingship in the ASOIAF series REQUIRE Bran as a mediator for peace talks. Bran becoming King of Westeros is plausible because, by the time Spring arrives, Bran would basically be the last universally recognised "Authority": Bran is Male, Bran is of Legitimate Birth, Bran is a Stark, Bran is a Tully, Bran is a Whent, Bran SURVIVED (he should be dead at least 7 times over, and that's by CURRENT canon: he'll have survived even more by Springtime).

Bran's being disabled might even give him greater popularity, in a Great Springtime Council: Winter and years of War would give most survivors loved experience with disabilities, be it their own or that of those around them. Frostbite would steal bits and pieces from all across the social strata; the Winter/Eldritch conditions would result in greater risks when Traveling or Fleeing; everyone would have seen battle or those wounded by it; Burns would be fairly common too, be it from rushed funerals or wights, from accidents in the Cold & Dark, via proximity to dragons or red priests... can people survive Wildfyre burns? There's going to be a lot of arson just in general, in a setting that is highly flammable & where arson is a common plot device).

In a post-apocalyptic Westeros, Bran's disability would merit very little offense... unless he gets Outed as infertile or something but, with so few survivors amongst the nobility due to War & after an apocalyptic Winter, even infertility wouldn't oust Bran from wielding authority because traditional succession by that point is all but impossible (women, children & disabled men get Power because Everyone Else Is Dead).

Willas and Doran, assuming they survive, would be more receptive to anything Bran proposes through their sharing the lived experience of being Men Disabled "Non-Heroically" : that's 2 out of 7 Lords Paramount in Bran's Camp; Bran is related to another 3 (assuming he isn't himself a Lord); Jaime Lannister is very much In Debt to the Starks and Bran most of all (assuming Tyrion isn't on Trial or otherwise barred from politics, he'd side with Bran out of Lannister Debt &/or Solidarity); and not one Baratheon, legitimate or otherwise, would survive to see Spring without At Least 1 Stark lending their support.

Stannis & Shireen Baratheon are currently in Stark Territory, Jon's specifically, and neither of them are held highly in regard: their survival & political authority is contingent on Northern goodwill, gained via Jon's vouching for them, and Melissandre Being Scary (Stannis has guards & a small army but, like, this is The North in Winter and they're surrounded by Free Folk: he's screwed without Jon and his whole political campaign was built on Ned Stark's Word).

The Baratheon Bastards (Mya, Edric and Gendry) already owe their lives to Jon Arryn & Ned Stark: Cersei had every other half-sibling killed. It's unlikely any of the Bastards would "survive" getting Legitimized (Mel sees them as Fuel; any wartime "rewards" by Heirs Claimant, Lannister or Targaryen or Otherwise, would be a political landmine waiting to happen; they're all in areas of active conflict, where their parentage could get them killed if known, and having a Stark Sister to namedrop could save (or kill) them.

So. "Kingmaker Bran" is not only thematically appropriate, it's also a political necessity: post-Winter Westeros may be more accepting of women holding power but Bran's legitimate birth, his gender and his "political neutrality" leaves him as the Least Hated Lord in any given council of lords.

So if Bran Stark wants the Lords to hold a Great Council at Harrenhal, the surviving Lords of Westeros are going to have a Great Council at Harrenhal. If Bran Stark thinks that Claimant X is Unfit for rule, Claimant X is Unfit For Rule. If Bran Stark think that Kingship of Westeros is a Just Punishment, and if Bran Stark, the person Most Wronged Party by Prisoner A, thinks Kingship to be a Just Punishment for said Criminal? All Hail Prisoner A, First of Their Name!

Bran can achieve all the above just by Showing Up to a Great Council and Passing Two-Factor Identification: any personal Heroics to his name or Epic Feats by those of (or in service to) his House would only add further credibility to his being Bran Stark, eldest surviving son of Ned Stark.

Any Tree Wizardry Bran may retain is superfluous to the politics of his simply being Bran Stark in a setting where everyone else is dead, female, foreign &/or a war criminal. Bran Stark, Tree Wizard, calling everyone out to Harrenhal for peacetalks is a logical progression of his story as a Greenseer, a person of Destiny, the eldest surviving son of Catelyn & Ned.

(let's just hope that when Bran Stark does his Kingmaking, the only Wizarding he does is with Trees and Animal Familiars rather than Tree-People or Hodor: a hivemind police state like that of Brynden Rivers' Westeros would be more "Nightmare" than "Dream". Hopefully Jojen will show up, ideally Alive, to yell at his Prince in time for Bran to be mid-Atonement Arc when he learns what's become of Jon Snow, Winterfell, his sisters & Rickon.)

Harrenhal will be the new seat of what’s left of the Seven Kingdoms at the ending.

I know a few people have already said bits and pieces of this but I wanted to get everything in one post for my own sanity lmao. There’s three kind of main branches to this theory: geographical reasons, historical reasons, and reasons specific to King Bran theories.

Geography surrounding Harrenhal

It’s the center of everything! Let me show you on the map because i’m a visual learner:

Ignore the North and Dorne and probably the Iron Islands too, bc the first two are not gonna be part of The Seven Kingdoms anymore and the Iron Islands is…gonna be a fucking mess lmao. Lemme zoom in:

It’s a very centralized point in the Riverlands but it’s also fairly centralized to the Crownlands (which will probably get absorbed into the others), the Stormlands, the Eyrie, the Reach, and the Westerlands. It makes sense, from a geographical standpoint, that if the lords need to choose a new ruling seat - and they will no matter what, because King’s Landing is gonna go boom - that a more centralized location for easier access to the capital would be their decision.

The Riverlands is also an excellent choice in general because geographically, they are always getting screwed due to being right in the middle of everyone. They get fucked during the Dance, the Blackfyre Rebellions, Robert’s Rebellion, AND the War of the Five Kings. The only area that really gets screwed over more during the various wars is probably the Dornish Marches, because of the conflicts between the stony Dornishmen and the Storm and Reacher Lords but you can’t really set up there because it’s too far from the Eyrie and Riverlands.

And the thing about the Riverlands is that part of why it gets fucked up is that it’s right in the middle of everything and has no natural defenses. The Eyrie has the mountains, the North has their snow, the Dornish has their desert. The Reach manages to stay out of a lot of fighting because that’s where the food is (although the Iron Islands are about to screw them, but that’s because the war has spiraled out of control) and while both the Stormlands and the Westerlands have seen big battles, they have some protection in their coasts, which gives them ships that the Riverlands just can’t quite access. Having the King set up in the Riverlands gives the smallfolk of the Riverlands some much needed protection and potentially, a break from all the fighting.

So the Riverlands is a good place to set up shop, but Harrenhal specifically? Well, that’s because it’s huge:

Every child of the Trident knew the tales told of Harrenhal, the vast fortress that King Harren the Black had raised beside the waters of Gods Eye three hundred years past, when the Seven Kingdoms had been seven kingdoms, and the riverlands were ruled by the ironmen from the islands. In his pride, Harren had desired the highest hall and tallest towers in all Westeros. Forty years it had taken, rising like a great shadow on the shore of the lake while Harren's armies plundered his neighbors for stone, lumber, gold, and workers. Thousands of captives died in his quarries, chained to his sledges, or laboring on his five colossal towers. Men froze by winter and sweltered in summer. Weirwoods that had stood three thousand years were cut down for beams and rafters. Harren had beggared the riverlands and the Iron Islands alike to ornament his dream. And when at last Harrenhal stood complete, on the very day King Harren took up residence, Aegon the Conqueror had come ashore at King's Landing.

If it’s going to be the capital, it has to be somewhere that can hold a whole lot of people and Harrenhal is ginormous and perfect for holding lots of people. It’s even happened before; part of why Lord Whent stages his big tourney where Lyanna is crowned queen of love and beauty is because likely because Ser Oswell Whent, his brother on the Kingsguard, asked him to stage an excuse to get all the Lords together so Rhaegar could discuss with them what to do about his father and Harrenhal is the biggest castle they can do that in outside of King’s Landing. From The Kingbreaker chapter:

Old Lord Whent had announced the tourney shortly after a visit from his brother, Ser Oswell Whent of the Kingsguard. With Varys whispering in his ear, King Aerys became convinced that his son was conspiring to depose him, that Whent's tourney was but a ploy to give Rhaegar a pretext for meeting with as many great lords as could be brought together.

It’s also built up to be sturdier than King’s Landing. Whereas King’s Landing was kind of haphazardly thrown together as it built up over the years, Harren the Black had always meant for a lot of people to be housed there. We see how many people can live in it during Arya’s chapters as she runs around inside of it and Harrentown and this is with a ruler who has no interest in keeping a lot of people in it. With a King or Queen living there, it opens itself up to growing in a much more easily defensible way than King’s Landing.

Historical Reasons Harrenhal is Significant

As you can see on the map, it’s built right on the edge of a very important place: The Isle of Faces and the lake that surrounds it, called the Gods Eye.

It’s a key place for the history of Westeros because it’s where the First Men and the Children of the Forest made peace:

Inexorably, the war ground on across generations, until at last the children understood that they could not win. The First Men, perhaps tired of war, also wished to see an end to the fighting. The wisest of both races prevailed, and the chief heroes and rulers of both sides met upon the isle in the Gods Eye to form the Pact…

It’s also notable for being the only place the Andals never managed to conquer:

It is possible that a few [Children of the Forest] survived on the Isle of Faces, as some have written, under the protection of the green men, whom the Andals never succeeded in destroying.

It’s a place associated with peace and negotiations between people, a place to stand strong against war and untouched by its horrors. A monument to what could be, if you will. And Harrenhal sits on its shore; it would add a very rich layer to setting up King’s Landing in a place associated with peace. And this isn’t the only time a succession crisis of sorts is settled there. The Great Council of 101 AC was held there.

To resolve the matter of his heir once and for all, Jaehaerys called the first Great Council in the year 101 AC, to put the matter before the lords of the realm. And from all corners of the realm the lords came. No castle could hold so many save for Harrenhal, so it was there that they gathered. The lords, great and small, came with their trains of bannermen, knights, squires, grooms, and servants. And behind them came yet more—the camp followers and washerwomen, the hawkers and smiths and carters. Thousands of tents sprang up over the moons, until the castle town of Harrenton was accounted the fourth largest city of the Realm.

Once again, we have Harrenhal associated with peace and negotiation in its history. However, that’s not all it’s associated with; there are several very significant battles that take place near the Gods Eye - again, it is in the middle of everything. It’s a place with lots of history and lots of ties to everyone in Westeros. There’s the Battle Beneath the Gods Eye between Maegor and Aegon the Uncrowned, The Battle of the Lake Shore and The Battle Over the Gods Eye during the Dance, as well as the story of Addam Velaryon landing Seasmoke on the Isle of Faces to take counsel from the green men after being accused of treason. It is, all in all, a very significant place in Westeros.

But that’s not the only reason Harrenhal is talked about. Basically every single time Harrenhal is brought up, someone will mention that it’s haunted. This belief comes because of Aegon the Conquerer and Harren the Black. While Orys Baratheon and Rhaenys march for the Stormlands & Daemon Velaryon and Visenya left for the Vale, Aegon himself first turns towards Harren the Black and the Riverlands. All three face opposition but Aegon conquers the Riverlands first because Harren is so ill loved:

So now the riverlands rose against him, led by Lord Edmyn Tully of Riverrun. Summoned to the defense of Harrenhal, Tully declared for House Targaryen instead, raised the dragon banner over his castle, and rode forth with his knights and archers to join his strength to Aegon’s. His defiance gave heart to the other riverlords. One by one, the lords of the Trident renounced Harren and declared for Aegon the Dragon. Blackwoods, Mallisters, Vances, Brackens, Pipers, Freys, Strongs … summoning their levies, they descended on Harrenhal.

And he makes very quick work of Harrenhal, making it the first Kingdom to become part of the Seven Kingdoms:

The riverlords outside the castle walls said later that the towers of Harrenhal glowed red against the night, like five great candles … and like candles, they began to twist and melt, as runnels of molten stone ran down their sides.

Ever since the burning of Harrenhal, no House has been able to hold it without going extinct soon after. For House Targaryen’s rule in Westeros to start with Harren the Black’s hubris and the fall of Harrenhal, and end with Harrenhal becoming the new seat of the King of the Four (??) Kingdoms is a really neat connection.

Reasons Why It Works With King Bran

But wait! you say. Didn’t you just say that Harrenhal is cursed??

Why yes I did. HOWEVER. There is one family that the Curse of Harrenhal supposedly never touched: The Whents.

You see, from Harren the Black up until the Whents, every other House in charge of it has gone extinct.

House Hoare? That’s Harren’s house and we all know what happened there - they don’t call him Balerion the Black Dread for no reason.

House Qoherys? Dead less than three decades later.

House Harroway? Wiped out a decade later.

House Towers? died out within two decades, ending with sickly Maegor Towers and then old and tired Rhaena Targaryen, until the two odd friends died and the holdings were free again.

House Strong? Well…between the fire that kills Harwin and Lyonel, Larys’ shenanigans getting him merced by Cregan, and Aemond just straight committing a minor genocide in the Riverlands, they all died out (except maybe Alys Rivers’ baby but we don’t have any info there).

House Lothston? Interestingly, they hold the castle for several decades, but they too went completely extinct under King Maekar.

So we come to House Whent. They’ve held it for about 6 ish decades and though they’ve also had some bad luck, they’ve had their people grow old - Walter Whent who threw the tourney is called “Old Lord Whent” by Barristan, and Shella Whent is old when she dies. But the most interesting thing is Minisa Whent.

We don’t know a lot about the Whent line, only that Shella refused to bend the knee to Joffrey, fled Harrenhal when it was attacked, and later died. You could say the curse still got them but in every other case, the whole line dies, not just the main line! Even Janos Slynt has no descendants and Littlefinger will have none to inherit either. But the Whents do: they have House Tully. Minisa Whent married Hoster Tully and had Catelyn and Edmure. The Whents are known for their sharp cheekbones and both Catelyn and Sansa, funny enough, are described as having sharp cheekbones. This very close relation could mean that the Starklings have a claim to Harrenhal through their mother.

This fits with King Bran because we know the lords are perfectly fine fudging things and going through the female line if it fits their needs. They did the same thing with Robert and his grandmother Rhaelle Targaryen, who married Ormund Targaryen, Steffon’s mother. Renly says here:

Oh, there was talk of the blood ties between Baratheon and Targaryen, of weddings a hundred years past, of second sons and elder daughters. No one but the maesters care about any of it.

The maesters love a loophole inheritance.

And remember that the odds of surviving the books for the Baratheons and Targaryens is very, very low. It’s pretty much just bastards all the way down (on both sides lmao, because I do not think either Young Griff or Dany are gonna survive). And whenever the inheritance isn’t clear, a Great Council is called. Catelyn even suggested it while parlying with the Baratheons:

Let the three of you call for a Great Council, such as the realm has not seen for a hundred years. We will send to Winterfell, so Bran may tell his tale and all men may know the Lannisters for the true usurpers. Let the assembled lords of the Seven Kingdoms choose who shall rule them.

Mentioning Bran, of course. A lot of people think it’s far fetched and while I do think him being so young is gonna be a hard sell now that the time jump is gone, I don’t think it’s that far fetched that the lords of the Stormlands, The Reach, the Eyrie, and The Westerlands would be convinced to choose Hoster Tully’s grandson and Ned Stark’s baby boy to rule over them.

And finally, Robb wasn’t called “Robb Stark, King in the North” he was also explicitly called “King of the Trident.” All the talk about who is Robb’s heir but look at how they all think of themselves - “as brave as Robb” “as strong as Robb” or they’ll have sons and name them Robb. Whereas Who Rules The North is all tied up in Robb’s legacy, the Iron Throne isn’t! If King Bran rules from the Riverlands, however, it gives Bran that tie to Robb; he gets to protect and rule from the lands Robb swore to protect, the lands he ultimately fought and died in. For Bran, he still gets to be Robb’s heir, at least in spirit, and I think that would be, to Bran, something very bittersweet.

[fromtheseventhhell]

IDK if it's exactly what you wanted but your recent post about Mirri came "in time" for what I've seen.

Here are some screeshots of tags from this post

To me it seems like they try to critique the writing but as always, tend to blame the character. Plus, they sprinkle some lies (that Dany forced Mirri to save Drogo, that she refuses to engage with history), they project onto GRRM (that he wants to critique violent intervetionism with her), they ignore his statement about the "white saviour" accusations (which fair, you may not find them satisfying but still, take his intentions into account), they take away acountability of what the slavers did (bc THEY turned Slaver's Bay into a "hole of death" and was that long before Dany arrived) and not saying why "she allowed slavery to continue", which is a convenient way to frame her as immoral because after the masters of Yunkai attacked Astapor, and because "gently born" people, anticipating the struggle in Meereen, ask her to let them sell themselves back into slavery :

"My queen?" Daario stepped forward. "The riverside is full of Meereenese, begging leave to be allowed to sell themselves to this Qartheen. They are thicker than the flies."

Dany was shocked. "They want to be slaves?"

"The ones who come are well spoken and gently born, sweet queen. Such slaves are prized. In the Free Cities they will be tutors, scribes, bed slaves, even healers and priests. They will sleep in soft beds, eat rich foods, and dwell in manses. Here they have lost all, and live in fear and squalor."

"I see." Perhaps it was not so shocking, if these tales of Astapor were true. Dany thought a moment. "Any man who wishes to sell himself into slavery may do so. Or woman." She raised a hand. "But they may not sell their children, nor a man his wife." (ASOS, Daenerys VI)

I mean, she does this because she wants to respect their choice and she makes sure no one is forced to be enslaved. I don't think she should have allowed it but I understand why. It was not out of mallice. (here is a meta about how she is not a slaver X , X )

Plus the tendency to blame Daenerys fans for pointing out how the situation with Mirri was grey, that Mirri indeed killed Rhaego, but they can defend Mirri and acuse us, Dany stans, of being racists and whatnot.

Ironically my post was about conversations on Twitter (I know) where people were demonizing Dany and I found out this post was actually what started it all, so my post was unintentionally a response to this one. I'm gonna talk a little bit about this conversation and the overall conversations about racism in this fandom but I don't mean it as a direct reply to OP's post. The only thing I have to say specific to their post is that it does stand out to me that they acknowledge the issue with Mirri's writing, which is that it's part of a trend with how characters of color are written, but they fail to actually talk about said characters. Their main point isn't even about how Mirri is handled, it's on the subject of Dany's whiteness.

The thing about discussing racism in asoiaf is that it's a more complex and nuanced conversation than a majority of people are willing to have. Often times it just gets devolved into justifications for disliking a specific character and this was the same attitude people had towards the show. If there's racism in the writing, then that's a factor that affects how the entire series is written, it doesn't just reflect poorly on a single character. People definitely act like that's the case though.

On the subject of Mirri and her treatment, it's rare that people discuss her character without using her as a means of bashing Dany. The screenshots you provided highlight this. We're supposed to believe that Mirri's actions towards Dany are justified and that Dany's actions towards Mirri are racist solely on the basis that Mirri is a WOC, but it's not that simple (Also note that it's always "Mirri was right to do what she did" but they never talk about what specifically she did, which was force the abortion of a 14-year-old bridal slave. Somehow saying exactly what happened doesn't make her as sympathetic). What makes the writing racist isn't the situation itself, it's the idea of characters of color being disposable in service of white characters' arcs. But this situation is often talked about as an isolated event, in a vacuum. The logic applied just doesn't work. If race is such an important factor, why was Mirri right to kill a child of color over a prophecy she was ultimately wrong about? There are plenty of racist connotations in the "brute" narrative surrounding POC, specifically men of color, but people eagerly justify his death because of the hypothetical harm he could've caused. They also completely ignore that the prophecy wasn't about him, so the justification is that a child of color can be murdered if people assume they'll cause harm. There were also the others in Drogo's Khalasar that Dany couldn't help because of her situation. Eroeh suffered a horrible fate before her ultimate death, but Dany would've conceivably been able to help her if she hadn't been incapacitated. So does the fact that Mirri's actions harmed other POC, and not just a white woman, factor in at all? Or are we not supposed to care about them because they are, however positively, associated with Dany?

That also leads to the question of what exactly would be the right way of handling this situation. Dany's whiteness is the biggest criticism but her being a woc would come with its own racist connotations. Dany's life of poverty and being sold as a slave would've had other implications when contrasted to the other primarily white, high-born female characters. So what would've been a better way of handling the Dothraki and other people of color in this series? Whether Dany is white or not, the problem isn't solved. Somehow that's never a conversation being had, despite the number of people who supposedly care so much. It also seems as though Dany's suffering, and only Dany's suffering, is considered justifiable through her whiteness. If Dany had been the one to die instead, it still would've been a child bridal slave being killed. How is that the "better" option for people supposedly concerned with racism and misogyny? With almost any other female character their suffering is never justified regardless of who is causing it.

There is just...a different set of standards people have for Dany than they have for any other character. Someone brought up the point that Robb's part in the war caused incredible violence to the smallfolk, yet he is considered one of the noblest characters in the series. We see firsthand the devastation the Northerners are responsible for through Arya's POV, and many women and children specifically are harmed. We hear about countless women being raped and killed from the fallout of Robb's actions but somehow that's not Robb's responsibility. On top of that, there are plenty of smallfolk who have actively anti-North mindsets. Robb, who isn't trying to bring about systemic change or actively focused on fighting for the smallfolk, isn't responsible for the damage he causes them. Dany, who is trying to overthrow a violent system built on subjugating people, is the most evil character in the series because she interacts with characters of color more than anyone else. But then...people seem uninterested in discussing privileges and harm caused when it isn't related to bashing Dany. It's damn near taboo to refer to certain characters as classist, even when that's how they're written.

If you want to discuss racism in the series and fandom though, let's do it! Let's talk about the depiction of the Dothraki vs. The (white) Wildings and the difference in nuance and empathy they get, let's talk about how the current generation of Starks benefit from colonization and the eradication of the children of the forest (who are very much indigenous-coded) and how that's not framed as a bad thing, let's talk about women of color who are already being enslaved before Dany was sold to the Dothraki, let's talk about Alayaya + the senseless violence she faces and how her pain is used to give Tyrion angst, let's talk about the various background women of color portrayed as sex workers and how that could play into the jezebel trope, let's talk about lack of prominent characters of color outside of Dany's pov, let's talk about how D&D wrote a former Black slave dying in chains, how they portrayed the slaves exclusively as people of color despite slavery not being based on race in the books, let's talk about how they played into the Dothraki's racist writing and portrayed Dany's people as "scary foreign invaders" that the North looked down on, let's talk about how everyone justified the Northerners (and Sansa specifically) being scared even though Dany came to help, let's talk about how people in the fandom were laughing at Missandei's death and saying she deserved to die for being "rude" to a white woman, let's talk about fandom's habit of portraying Jon and Arya (considered the uglier, feral starks) as dark-skinned in comparison to their "white" siblings, let's talk about how the hotd writers made characters Black and then diminished their roles and importance, let's talk about how routinely characters of color are ignored and turned into props by fandom, LET'S TALK ABOUT IT! But no, the only capacity people are interested in talking about racism is when they can use it to bash Dany.

TL;DR/summation: There's nothing wrong with having good-faith conversations about racism in the series or disliking a character because of it. The issue is that that's rarely what happens. Instead of having constructive conversations about race, the pain of characters of color gets turned into props and given no nuance outside of that.

[baleriontheblackkitten]

Hello everyone and welcome to my ASOIAF re-read blog!

It's finally time for me to start, although I make no promises about how often I will update.

Context for my re-read: I read the main ASOIAF books (so no F&B and the other stories yet) once, a few years ago now (I started reading them after the end of the tv show, for brain-cleansing reasons). I remember some stuff. I forgot other stuff. Not sure about how much I have forgotten since I have forgotten about it. We'll discover it together!

I do have some theories and spec/mental scenarios for the developments in the next books, that range from spec-that-might-be-proven-right to spec-that-won't-be-proven-right-but-it's-fun-to-speculate-it (probabably it's all the latter, but the thing about spec is that you don't know for sure, ain't that cool?). My theories will probably pop up as I read, be patient if some speculation is blatantly disproven by stuff I have forgotten that I won't have reached yet in my re-read.

Everyone is welcome to discuss their own opinions and spec with me!! I'm super eager to talk about ASOIAF with people ^-^

No character hate or ship wars please. I'm, like, super chill about everyone and everything in the books.

Tag for these posts will be "marghe rereads asoiaf". I have no tagging system for ASOIAF characters and things, I will make it up as I go.

[slaygentford]

umm 1 for asoiaf 2 for classical history & like… 16 for fandom in general!! hehe🔫

the character everyone gets wrong. ned stark. for REAL. ned stark. the big mistake people make with ned is. oh my god wait I just realized something. asoiaf is drag me to hell media bc ned Just Dies like you think he's gonna get out and he doesn't he just dies. anyway I was saying. ned because people always make it a he was a good man/he was a bad man/he was a complicated man thing and that's so far afield from the point... it doesnt matter what kind of man he was it matters that he made a political misstep and got his head chopped off like ned is fundamentally here to illustrate something about westeros/feudal culture to us. the starks are not fundamentally heroes that's the whole thing that's the whole point . like ned is the "hero" who just dies for a reason and its to illustrate that there are no heroes theres people making good and bad decisions. also just the starks in general they are so interesting if you stop basing your whole view of them on Protagonist IT'S AN ENSEMBLE SERIES. im strangling people .

a compelling argument for why your fave would never top or bottom why on earth would you make cicero top 🤔 age discrimination... do you think his heart can handle that?

you can't understand why so many people like this thing (characterization, trope, headcanon, etc) episode fixes tbh I don't want to see your rick and morty spec script I'm here for one thing and one thing only

[daenystheedreamer]

what’s the weirdest thing u did over asoiaf?? spreadlist of names intrigues me

as much as i'd love and i covet ownership of The Spreadsheet it isnt mine! it's available here i spend so much time on it that i can squirrel out if a name has been made up or is canonical EXTREMELY well. i havent done anything extremely weird though... hmm. some chucklable occurances under the cut

a) the ashara dayne x female oc self insert fanfic. again this matter is not to be spoken of nor will i ever release it. it is WIPED from ao3. i did get into an argument in the comments section with a CUNT over it and it was really funny cos when he found out i was a girl (how i ID'd at the time) he was like sorry ma'am my most egregious apologies missus.

b) my season 8 spec fic i wrote at 14 after watching s7 when i was a jonerys (dw i recovered) and the actual battle of winterfell in season 8 was sooooo bad and lame that i predicted most of it. like i had melisandre sacrifice herself and die. actually thats all i remember idk if i predicted anything else. posted on wattpad ofc, on which i had irls following and i know for a FACT one of them read it. jesus christ.

c) watching GOT for the first time in 2017 and getting to the voyeuristic lesbian dany x irri scene from season 1 and realising i recognised it cos i watched it many, many, MANY times as a young homosexual on youtube without realising it was from got

d) ive been using this one family tree site since 2018 to create alternate timeline asoiaf family trees and boy oh boy i currently have TWENTY FOUR asoiaf related family trees created. im terrified that theyre secretly public and the site owners know im using their genealogy site to track generations of invented blorbos. its called familyecho.com! when it added the option to track adoption/polyamory/step parenting Oh My God i went crazy it was so good. and omg they added noble titles and suffixes it fuelled my paranoia that they could See My Blorbos.

[postmodernmulticoloredcloak]

i need to follow more asoiaf blogs, i think i follow... like, 1 active one. i love the fandom spec, over the years i've stumbled over theories that were totally opposite from one another but all intriguing lol. also i want to dive into the fanart. any recs?

[redteabaron]

Why people defend Jon decision about swapping Gilly and mance child? He put Gilly child on risk and bullied her to give up on her kid because he could. I know he didn't want any child to die but couldn't he find another way to deal this situation?

I don't know why people defend this decision of jon's specifically, but I don't really believe we were intended to be "okay" with this decision of his, because obviously there would've been other ways to deal with the situation, but i think those would've been more costly (with lives or the possibility of the withdrawal of any support against the dead immediately) and ultimately stannis wouldn't have let this one just slide, know what I mean? that said...there's no real way to be like "yup okay that's fine". I think it's a shitty, awful decision that ultimately punishes gilly, but I also believe that gilly is a stand-in for another mother who's child may have been switched out to protect the baby with "better standings/more value".

so what we're seeing is absolutely about how gilly, not involved with jon or stannis, is the one punished because she's low-born and when lords play their games it's the people who suffer, and also about jon's actions, but it's also, imo, very in the spirit of "this has happened before and we've seen it" in grrm's way of flagging us to pay attention to this situation and aegon and varys. jon would be playing the part of varys. (and if melisandre and stannis play the part of the tywin lannister and gregor clegane in a way, i wonder if val is meant to be a parallel to elia or at least the closest approximation of a "protector" to the baby)

I think the controversy of the baby switch is to indicate multiple things to us: 1) jon's grayer actions while he's in command and his ability to see those darker actions through if he deems it necessary enough, 2) the likelihood that jon felt this was the only option left in order to trick stannis and that we're meant to see that stannis wouldn't have stood any other alternative besides burning a king's son and how focused he is on power and his right, even if he must do monstrous things to an innocent child 👀, 3) jon's idea of switching a king's son likely isn't original, particularly when we look to the likelihood that varys arranged a switch out for baby aegon and the clues we find throughout asoiaf that point to it

[thebluelemontree]

I don't know if you've already answered a similar question, if you have I apologize and will look better for it. But do you think Sandor and Sansa would still love each with how much they've both changed? They've almost become new people, but still the same beings.

It’s no problem. I’ve written about that here and probably touched on this in many other posts. 

I wouldn’t frame the question as would they “still love each other with how much they’ve both changed.” It implies that their feelings were already understood as love by them when they were together. What they had was a confusing mess of conflicting emotions that neither were fully capable of understanding or accepting at the time. Each had their reasons for why that was so, which goes to some of the issues that stood between them. While there is chemistry, intimacy, and empathy shown, IMO, it’s better to think of them as possessing the building blocks that can lead to love in the future.  

On the other hand, there was also:

The fact that she’s too young, immature, and unready for a consummated romance with anyone. She needs space and time to grow up and figure out what she wants. Until AFFC, she’s still only comfortable consciously fantasizing about Loras Tyrell, who is non-threatening, conventionally attractive, and uncomplicated. They are still relatively chaste/borderline erotic fantasies. The unkiss takes time for her to consciously accept and embrace as reciprocated erotic desire.  

The fact that he has no idea how to express himself without resorting to the language of violence that he understands best.

The fact that he copes with the unresolved childhood trauma and PTSD in unhealthy ways like his abrasive Hound persona, his overly-cynical worldview, and sometimes abusing alcohol when he’s under stress.

His immaturity and inability to simply ask for and accept the emotional support he wants (which she was perfectly willing to give) without freaking out over being vulnerable with someone. 

The fact that they are on opposite sides of a war where Sansa’s family is in open rebellion against her captors who Sandor owes fealty to. 

The fact that she’s the king’s betrothed. She’s his property. To explicitly act upon any romantic attraction would be considered treason, punishable by torture and death.  

The fact that there is a massive class disparity between them that overshadows the age difference in their world. That’s one reason why neither can put a name to this thing between them. A future queen / high lord’s daughter from an ancient house should not be fraternizing with a non-knight from a house only three generations old. That’s why they struggle even knowing what to call each other because using first names shows too much familiarity and intimacy. This would be true even without any of the other conflicts. Class controls everything in Westeros. 

And yes, he still owes her a big heartfelt apology for his abhorrent behavior during the Blackwater, and he should beg her forgiveness.  

Most of these points I elaborate on in more detail in the links above. If you notice, though, most of these things have either been resolved or are in the process of being resolved. None of these issues were ever insurmountable obstacles. 

The ways in which Sansa and Sandor have evolved even in their separation has been largely positive and complementary of each other. They haven’t grown apart or become incompatibly different at all. If anything, it’s pushed their feelings further along, and it’s clear they are very much on each other’s minds. Since we can see Sansa’s perspective firsthand, she’s only thought about Sandor more since he left.  

Sansa has grown and matured a lot more when we see her in the TWOW sample chapter. Had the five-year gap panned out, she would be legally an adult in Westeros; however, dropping it doesn’t seem to have affected GRRM’s intentions for any of his POVs. She’s in the company of unconventional, sexually mature women in their early twenties who can be role models in navigating adult relationships. The sassy way she takes no shit from a brutally honest Harrold Hardyng shows she has confidence and the ability to go toe-to-toe with Sandor’s gruff personality without getting flustered and running away. After she wipes the floor with him with her wit, she ends up winning Harry over to the point he’s begging for her favor. There is no point in the sample chapter where she voices any anxieties about not feeling ready for marriage, sex, or children. This no longer seems to be an issue for her, so we can assume she feels okay with having an adult relationship at this point.   

Her time as a bastard girl has made her warmer and friendlier. She was always kind, but proprieties and courtesies can also read as aloof and re-enforcing strict class boundaries. Can you imagine Kings Landing!Sansa hugging someone like Lothor Brune, a landless knight, as she does in TWOW? Or preferring the company of a sex-positive widow who enjoys taking lovers or a bastard girl over the “perfect sister” she saw in Margaery Tyrell and her cousins? Hell no. That would never happen. This new Sansa lacks those prejudices and is openly affectionate towards people she was raised to keep at arm’s length. Once she loosened up and stopped reciting courtesies, people actually got to know her and like her for who she is. That’s what Sandor always wanted from her, right? To drop the courtesies and flattering bullshit and just be a real person with him, not a talking parrot. While that criticism was harsh and rudely put, it had a lot of truth to it. It seems to have made Sansa into a happier person and more in touch with her authentic self. Now that she has accepted in Feast that she wanted Sandor like that, what is there to stop her from acting on it later?

The Quiet Isle didn’t exist before Feast. It was written for Sandor to recover and rehabilitate. Not just physically, but he’s getting what constitutes psychological counseling and a treatment plan that deals directly with his worst traits. He appears to meet with the Elder Brother often enough because the latter seems to know quite a bit about Sandor’s backstory, what his issues are, and exactly who Sansa Stark is. The rest of the time, he must observe the no talking rule and do meaningful work as a novice. This man, who once flaunted his contempt for those who couldn’t defend themselves as weak and deserving of death, is put to work digging graves for the innocent victims of violence. All day long, he has to look at the faces of men, women, and children killed by evil men with that philosophy. One brother even yells at him for carelessly tossing dirt around with the shovel, and he silently takes it. No smart ass backtalk. In the evening, he has to serve food and clear plates for men he would have once mocked. They’re men of faith, they’ve renounced violence, and Sandor sits lower in status than them. To Sandor’s credit, he humbly submits to all this in a show of respect and humility. It’s like he wants to learn these lessons they are offering and is allowing himself to be schooled. Now Sandor may always be Sandor on some level (if Stranger kicking down the stable doors and refusing to be gelded is any indication). Still, it does look like he’s become a gentler, healthier, and sober version of himself. The only part of Sandor that Sansa rejected was the Hound, and it’s both stated in the text and by George himself that the Hound is dead. Period. And yeah, it seems like Sandor is in a place where he is unlikely to backslide into old behavior, and he can make that heartfelt and necessary apology to Sansa. I don't think Sandor could ever be okay with moving their relationship forward without making amends first. It wouldn't sit right with his sense of remorse and personal responsibility, which is a good thing. 

All these changes are for the better for them as individuals and as a possible future couple. Contrary to your ask, I would say a positive, fully-fledged romance with "HEA" potential wouldn’t be possible or believable without all the growth and changes they've undergone. When they reunite, they can do so on more equal footing. 

Not that there aren’t more conflicts to overcome. They both are currently wanted fugitives for murders they didn’t commit, so they both need to clear their names and reclaim their true identities. There is still the matter of Sansa’s marital status as Tyrion isn’t dead but their marriage was also unconsummated. She could try to have her marriage officially annulled by the Faith somehow, but to do that, she’ll have to take the risk of revealing her true identity. Again, these don’t seem like plots that won’t be resolved anyway at some point. What about that class divide though? Well, the Starks aren’t like Tywin or Cersei, and they actually value things like faithful service. No reason why Sandor couldn’t be awarded a lordship and lands in gratitude for saving the lives of both Arya and Sansa. I’m just sayin’.