#are we writing about westeros' feminism?

[greenqueenhightower]

Favorite Subtle Alicole Moment From S2 E1:

During the small council meeting, Aegon wants to heed a full-on attack on Lord Tully with his dragons. Alicent tries to dissuade him, imploring him to "proceed cautiously." After all her efforts have failed, she looks at Criston meaningfully seeking his aid. Criston acknowledges her gaze, intervenes and deters Aegon by emphasizing the needlessness of putting himself in danger.

I love how Alicent and Criston have developed this embedded telepathy that allows them to communicate and look out for one another. It truly shows that Alicent has very few allies, even amongst her own family, and even fewer people take her advice seriously. She needs Criston to make sure her voice is heard.

Which is sad if you think about it since she needs a man to be validated as a politician and strategist but it is still romantic to recognize that she has found the one man who will not dismiss but rather support her ideas.

[rappaccini]

do we need to like. talk. about how grrm taking so long to complete asoiaf means the original subversion of daenerys targaryen's character has been basically lost.

because aside from the show massively fucking the ending up, you also have to consider the seismic shift of the perception of fantasy as a whole since asoiaf hit the mainstream and since more intersectional perspectives and deconstructions of white saviorism have risen in prominence.

like it's a good thing that we're collectively critiquing and sideeying dany's storyline for the questionable, orientalist and often outright racist elements, and that the girlboss dany idea is being challenged. but uh guys. take a look at grrm. do you really think he was setting out to write a paul atreides style deconstruction of white saviorism with dany. or is it not more likely that he put those things into his story by mistake and didn't realize those problematic elements were there until decades later-- especially since girlboss feminism didn't fucking exist when he started writing asoiaf. is it not more likely that he missed the points he was trying to make about dany being a foreigner interfering in eastern politics and the white savior vibe her story sometimes puts off is completely accidental.

people do not seem to realize what the climate of fantasy was when grrm was writing asoiaf in the 90s-00s. the moral grays and grimdark elements of modern fantasy were in part popularized by asoiaf. grrm wasn't subverting the idea of dany being a good ruler. dany being a good ruler was the subversion.

daenerys targaryen is a deconstruction and subversion of the almost comically evil sorceress-queen antagonist of a fantasy novel that would never be written today.

think through what dany looks like from the outside:

she's the daughter of the mad incestuous king who terrorized westeros only a generation ago, and she's back to get his throne for herself.

she's going to make her arrival by invading from the Savage East and killing the one true lost heir, the son of the prince everyone loves and wishes were king, who was raised among the people, who's a boy, who practices the faith of the seven and will marry a westerosi lady. and she's going to destroy the shining city that he's going to rule from.

she rides a black and red dragon that spits black and red fire. she has two other dragons with her and used blood magic to hatch them. she killed a house full of warlocks, has prophetic dreams, talks to mysterious sorcerers and witches and is linked with magic.

she comes from a family of incestuous, weird-looking, magic-using, dragon-riding conquerors who are the last survivors of an empire that conquered half the world and decimated and enslaved an entire continent by using dark magic, dragons and horrifying experiments. and her family in particular is infamous for having a tendency to go insane.

she's so beautiful men are throwing themselves at her. she dominated one husband and killed another. her dragon set poor sweet quentyn martell on fire when all he was doing was trying to honor a betrothal agreement. she has sex with both men and women where she's in control of the encounters. she had a sexual relationship with her brother. she 'bewitched' the most powerful warlord in essos with her sexuality, convinced him to kill her brother for her, took over his following, and will come to westeros with control of the most deadly cavalry in the world who are already considered to be 'savages' -- and her association with them has already started rumors that she fucks horses because she's so insatiable.

she's infertile and sacrificed her one pregnancy (gasp, the Firstborn Son!) to hatch her dragons.

kinslayer allegations: her brother, her son, and her (fake) nephew. even her mother, to an extent.

she has very tanned skin, spooky silver hair (that's very short) and purple eyes, a tyroshi accent and wears revealing clothing that would scandalize westerosis.

she's the savior figure for a Foreign Religion that's spreading in westeros and competing with the faith of the seven.

she's either the savior figure for the 'barbarian' nomadic raiders, or the mother of their prophesized savior.

she's leading an army of foreign (brown) slave soldiers, sellswords and 'barbarians.' she's being advised by foreigners. her handmaids aren't Nice Noble Girls-- they're nomadic horsewomen who are stereotyped as unmannered and promiscuous.

and the westerosis in her camp are the ones westeros hates: pirates that just destroyed oldtown, westeros's beloved center of trade, faith and knowledge. specifically euron, who wants to marry her. the dwarf that killed king joffrey and escaped and is now back because he wants to burn down king's landing. an ugly westerosi lord from backwater bear isle who was banished for selling slaves. a westerosi knight who refused to accept the king's wishes for him to retire and ran off to serve the opposition... and probably marwyn, a controversial maester.

she destroyed the essosi economy, has sacked multiple cities, turned the ruling class out of their homes, crucified a bunch of nobles, and will probably burn the volantene tower full of nobles on her way west.

she's a woman, specifically a teenage girl, who has power in her own right, who wants to claim more of it. and who has no more powerful man to answer to.

daenerys is the embodiment of everything westeros hates and fears to such an extent that even if she does everything right, or doesn't do anything at all, westeros will never accept her.

we spent five books following dany off on her own in essos because that plotline's all about giving you context before she arrives: here's the Evil Queen's backstory, so by the time she does what she does, the reader completely understands and empathizes with her, even if they disagree with her actions. and when all our heroes hate her, and she decides to strip them of their power like she did in essos with the slavers, we don't know what to do.

the subversion is: what if our view of this evil antagonist is xenophobic and sexist, and all the things we're scared of her for were taken out of context or twisted to villainize her. what if the foreign culture she's from isn't evil, and what if her slave army is actually freedmen who chose to follow her, and she opposes the legacy of slavery her family sources their power from. what if she's 'mad' because she's understandably angry and upset, and not ~craaazy~. what if the nobles she was killing deserved it, what if the system they depend on was evil and deserved to be destroyed. what if our system that we've been fighting to preserve isn't much better and needs to go too, even if People We Like are in charge of it. what if she's a teenager who doesn't always make the right decisions, especially when much older adults with their own motives are manipulating her.

the subversion is: what if the evil sorceress-queen who's going to invade our wonderful fantasy realm and bring all her big bad scary changes with it is a complex person with good intentions who actually has a completely legitimate reason to burn it all down.

so if dany genuinely does go evil when she gets to westeros... there's no subversion anymore because the trope is played straight. therefore, she won't. but it won't even matter. we'll know that dany isn't a monster, but nobody else will see her that way.

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

Rhaenyra and Feminism

I find it so funny how TG stans go on and on about how Rhaenyra wasn't a "feminist", when they're supporting team male progeniture. Like sure, Rhaenyra wasn't out there reading/writing feminist literature and manifestos against the patriarchy, but who was? Definitely not their beloved Alicent, their rapist king, or their misogynistic kinslayer/war criminal.

Let's do a quick history lesson, shall we? Queen Elizabeth I, the second ruling queen of England and one of the greatest rulers of that country. One of her most famous acts was the execution of Mary Queen of Scots. Does that make her an evil person who is a sign that her father and the other supporters of the patriarchy were right, that a woman isn't fit to rule? Now, we also have no records of Elizabeth interfering with the succession choices of her lords or making laws that women should be treated equal to men. Does this mean her reign was meaningless or even harmful to the feminist movement?

The answer to both these questions is fuck no. Elizabeth simply ruling was a huge step for the feminist movement. She showed that a woman could rule just as well if not better than a man.

Now a greenie could argue that Rhaenyra wasn't a good ruler, to which I answer, she never had a chance to properly rule. Had Rhaenyra ascended undisputed there would have been no need for any of her unpopular decisions (i.e. the heavy tax, Nettles' execution, etc.) Her reign would have set a precedent that a female heir is acceptable and the change would ripple out from there, much like it did with early female rulers in the real world.

As for why Rhaenyra didn't support Baela and Rhaena, that wasn't her decision, it was Corlys'. Corlys had decided that Driftmark would pass through Laenor's line not Laena's and he rejects any of Rhaenys' suggestions to the contrary in the show. Lucerys had been accepted by Laenor, Corlys, and Viserys as Laenor's legitimate heir, so that's the end of it. Corlys even had the chance to name Baela or Rhaena heir after Luke's death, but instead he chose Addam and later Alyn, two bastards who were, supposedly, of Laenor's line. Now, am I saying that I agree with Corly? No, in fact I really don't like him, but who his successor would be is his decision.

For Rhaenyra to step in and force him to change his mind would not only destroy what's left of any goodwill between the Targaryens and Velaryons (which her father put the responsibility of on her by forcing her to marry Laenor) but also would make the lords of Westeros a reason to revolt. Aegon I allowed the lords to exercise almost the same amount of power they did before the Conquest, part of that is the choice over who would succeed them. As for Luke being heir, Rhaenyra never forced Corlys to acknowledge him and affirm him as heir, that was, once again, his choice. He could have chosen to speak out against her and declare the boys bastards, with the support of Rhaenys, which would force Viserys to either remove Rhaenyra as heir or at least remove Luke from the line of succession. Or a much easier move would have been to remove Laenor as heir to Driftmark and give the position to Laena, yet Corly never did either of these things.

Yeah, Rhaenyra chose to embrace the opportunity this gave her, why wouldn't she? That's a political move that strengthens her claim in the face of the Greens' constant undermining and plotting. Literally every ruler in Westeros does shit like that, that's how the world works, if you want to rule, you need to play political games of some kind.

And before any of the greenies try to bring up the time when some lords brought a question of succession before Rhaenyra during the Dance, let me cover that real quick. Rhaenyra was in the middle of a war and knew full well that most of the lords would be willing to turn on her quickly, something she couldn't afford. So yes, she chose to support the male heirs over the lords' daughters, because she knew that was what the lords wanted and she needed their support. Again, had she not been at war, she wouldn't have had to make this choice and we can't know what she would have done.

Now, to conclude this rant: Rhaenyra wasn't a modern or suffrage era feminist, but that doesn't make her an anti-feminist tyrant. She would have been the beginning of a shift in the misogynistic ideals set so steadfastly in Westeros as her reign would set a precedent for future ruling queens. How could she have our ideals of feminism when the roots of them had barely begun to develop? That's an impossible expectation to put on her and the most hypocritical argument anyone could have. TG usurped Rhaenyra because they wanted to further uphold the patriarchy and none of them cared about the women of the realm or even the people. Maybe you should look at your precious team before you try to defame the rightful queen.

[bohemian-nights]

https://www.tumblr.com/drakaripykiros130ac/732901209272467456/i-am-just-loving-the-so-called-concern-tg-stans

This is how I find out an anti-nettles tag exists of Tumblr people are so shallow minded and miss the point George's original story people really think just because these dumbass show runner decided the race-bend an entire group of characters for cheap brownie points of representation that it means Nettles no longer matters like no, it may no longer be about race just because the writers are trying to force feminism onto Rhaenyra's character but it's still about class. A low born orphan at just the age of 17 was capable of doing what dozens of well trained knights failed to do. She survived one of the biggest civil wars in Westeros history, she had one of the last surviving dragons of the dance (who cares who's the biggest, oldest, most shiny etc etc it was Nettles and her dragon that outlived them all in the end) AND she was capable if creating an entire culture around herself (the tribes could've easily over powdered her but instead chose to worship and respect her) mind you all she had was a dragon, she had no titles just her name. Also, she's a few of the very few characters in the books that show care and remorse, she mourned Jace someone she barely knew and cried for Driftmark despite having lived a life previously where she was mistreated and starving on the streets. I swear these Dumbnyra stans deserve their names (Dumbnyra), and just because some of us are pro-Nettles, it doesn't automatically make use of team Green, Team Green can kick rocks as well because they are such hypocrites, whining and complaining about how their fav characters were stripped of importance and reduced to a singular thing yet they turn around and strip Nettles's character as a gotcha moment towards to Dumbnyra stans, as if her relationship with Daemon is the only thing important to her character. These stans also need to realize the Nettles is one of George's favorite characters whose stories he'd like to continue.

👆🏽That’s for the fact that this racist(who I should mention I’m blocked by for no reason🤣) actually knows how to tag things properly. I’ll give her that, but who exactly died and made her an authority on Black representation?

Dumbnyra stans this is exactly why people keep calling you people racists:

Do tell me how white a** Alys Rivers(no disrespect, but come on) had more purpose than a girl who shows that Targaryen supremacy is a lie? The girl that shows you don’t need Valyrian blood to claim a dragon.

The girl that George himself said he wanted to write a novella on(never heard him say that about Alys, Addam, Alyn, any of the other dragonseeds, Rhaena, and Baela)🤷🏽‍♀️

They are so blinded by the fact that she “ruins” Dumbnyra(which isn’t what they claim it is which is why they are scared sh*tless of her being on a show they claim doesn’t matter) that they make up lies about Nettles being the most irrelevant character in Fire & Blood.

This can never be irrelevant/unimportant/unnecessary/whatever else you want to say to demean her:

That happened long after the Dance boo boo(when Missy Anne’s a** was long dead 😊).

And if the one who wrote that garbage happens to be reading this(because I know you people are stalking me), f*ck you. I mean that from the bottom of my heart. You've crossed the line.

You’re a bigot. You have no right to speak on Black representation let alone say we are good on representation that doesn’t even affect you and that you have no understanding of.

And you definitely don’t care about representation because if you did you wouldn’t want Rhaena who has her own arc to replace Nettles who according to you wasn’t Daemon’s lover. If she’s just his daughter or his mentee, well then you have nothing to be worried about. Her presence on the show shouldn’t disrupt your putrid little white supremacist ship or make Missy Anne look bad since what happened at Maidenpool was all a big misunderstanding and Mysaria’s fault😊 You shouldn’t give a second thought to her.

Yes, Black people care about this issue(and even if some of us are a part of Team Green because that’s the majority I see from Team Green actually caring about her, then so what🙃).

Do you see how we are portrayed by the media? Do you see what happens to Black characters in TV shows and movies? To Black women characters? Do you see how they are treated by production and the fandom?

What you people are doing isn’t new. Just look at The Bear, Sleepy Hollow, Vampire Diaries, Star Trek, Star Wars, GOT(see how Missandei was done), and Marvel fandoms(there are more than that I’m just too tired to get into it).

The moment there is even a hint of a possibility that a Black woman might be in a relationship with the fandom hottie, hell the moment a Black woman doesn’t have a stereotypical role, all hell breaks loose and you people look for every excuse and spout out the same tired crap on why so and so is irrelevant, is a terrible character, doesn’t need a man, needs to be cut, should be killed off, should be replaced, etc.

So just because you don’t care doesn’t mean we should accept scraps, or our “irrelevant” characters being cut, or swapped out with race-bent characters. Black people aren’t all the same sweetie and we deserve more than what you feel we do.

If that’s too much for your diminutive brain to handle why don’t we just combine Ulf and Hugh? It’s not too late to cut out one of the two’s roles in post-production. After all, they serve the same role and they are both white.

You know what? How about we combine Black Aly and Jeyne Arryn while we are at it😀

Should we view Helaena and Rhaenyra as the same? I have a hard time telling them apart since they are both white and blonde. They should wear name tags that way we don’t get them confused 🙃

Let me stop there.

Sorry for ranting anon, but I’m so tired of the disrespect. Like how does one character who’s supposedly so unimportant cause so much uproar?

I go in on Dumbnyra stans a lot(and that person shows exactly why), but you are right that all sides of this fandom treat Nettles like she’s trash. If it’s not saying she’s a plot device sent to ruin Dumbnyra from Team Black and that anyone Black can replace her it’s how Team Green is so worried about her being abused and how maybe it’s for the best she gets cut.

Their behavior is utterly disgusting. It's anti-Black, but no one takes anti-Blackness and especially not misogynoir seriously.

Nettles may be a secondary character, but she’s the most important secondary character during the Dance. She starts out literally homeless. She claims Sheepstealer by determination, not by blood. She’s the only one to claim a wild dragon. The only non-Valyrian dragonrider that we know of.

She gets the Rogue Prince to fall in love with her to the point where he’s willing to die for her and disobeys his wife’s orders to save her. She survives the Dance with a dragon intake. Becomes a fire witch and is worshipped by a mountain clan in the Mountains of the Moon(she’s still worshipped by them during the main series). Her legacy is cemented.

I love her relationship with Daemon, but she’s so much more than just Daemon’s love. She’s a survivor. She’s the final girl. She would be seen as special as she is if she was white.

A character like her will never not be needed especially in a world where the representation of Black women in media, particularly fantasy stories, is still pretty bleak.

[thesunfyre4446]

I really don't get why people are so obsessed with viserys naming rhaenyra his heir. Frankly speaking, the moment aegon was born his words lost their meaning almost entirely since westeros is a medieval society. If we look at the real world actions that inspired the dance (the anarchy) we will see that not only Matilda (the ONLY heir, to whom nobles swore not once but TWICE) was challenged but she was challenged by her first cousin whose claim rose from female line (and he wasn't even the eldest). imo it's the biggest flaw of the dance bc rhaenyra's claim is so weak from medieval point of view that the fact she was supported by so many nobles is what truly makes asoiaf fantasy lol (and don't get me started on a general political side of the dance, bc it's a mess and f&b in general always looked to me like a soap opera rather than a history book about politics and stuff). And considering she also wanted her illegitimate child to succeed her it should've literally stripped her of any remaining support as well, her only advantage should've been in dragons and possible political alliances/marriges.

The other thing that kinda bothers me is that aegon is called an usurper even in universe which considering the rules of the realm is mind-boggling tbh. I feel like the fans (and grrm himself or maybe he just wanted something cool) don't grasp that feudal society (like in asoiaf) and centralised government (like absolute monarchy which is what many fans believe targaryens to be) are two completely different beasts.

Sorry if it's a bit messy, English is not my first language and I write on my phone

i could write you a 100 page essay about matilda's (yes, i'm a huge history nerd) tragedy of eventually realizing that she will never be able to sit the english throne as a woman and starting to fight for her son to be king instead (and he ended up being a horrible horrible man that abuses women f*ck you henry ii justice for eleanor) ]

yeah the houses that supported the greens claimed that the oath they swore to rhaenyra lost it's value the second the king had a son. in ep 3 the lords all assume that aegon is now the heir without viserys even making an official announcement , it's that obvious to them. it's very problematic when the lords believe that aegon naturally has a stronger claim then rhaenyra - the chosen heir - that's a succession crisis. aegon's claim is based on precedence & the andal law and rhaenyra's is based on the king. (that's the problem, rhaenyra's whole claim & political power are completely dependent on vis, the second he died - she was pretty much doomed).

yeah nonnie F&B politics are messy and illogical lol, but i will say that the lords who supported rhaenyra didn't do it in the name of feminism, most of them did it for personal gain or because they believed the blacks had a better chance of winning. (like jayne arryn that was worried that her own claim to the vale will be challenged if the greens won).

[horizon-verizon]

It's sad that the Dunk and Egg series will probably be great, and Aegon's show might get something good (at least Aegon had a good ending). The moral is simple: women are crazy and greedy b*tches, who are ready to burn half of Westeros for their desires, and men are either good or have a good reason for everything.

Yes, I was pondering this recently; of course they will write a series that very likely would outstrip the ones we've had that feature leading female characters. They won't have to pretend to understand a thing about feminism OR how women navigate this world form their ends, but just their interactions with men and those which lead to how the men's stories develop. Tanselle, after all, maybe be there...but is she making many decisions that change the course of Aegon V and Duncan's journey, or a part and then the men take over?

I'm simply annoyed, bc i know that if i were to watch it, I'd probably not find very much faults until we get to the women and non-Westerosis portrayals...which won't be much.

[ae-neon]

Lil hotd rant 🙃

When I was talking to this team black girl on tiktok, not even championing team green, just telling her it's weird to act like team green makes no sense

And she brought up that people swore oaths and that's why they owed Rhaenyra loyalty and I was like, sure in theory, but ppl break oaths all the time. If that's all it took, no one would have joined Robert's side in the rebellion and no one would have taken up the sword against Joffery. When ppl think the next in line is not legitimate or good for the country, they rebel

and knowing that, Rhaenyra should have invested in politicking her way out of those rumours or just stopped having bastard children or made aegon her heir or something. Like be proactive about it

And she told me it shouldn't matter that the children are bastards because they are hers and again, in theory sure, but in Westeros no???

I brought up that the whole conflict that kicks off things in GoT was Ned thinking Joffery is a bastard. So we know that having bastards is a huge problem in the culture of Westeros outside of Dorne and she told me not to being GoT into HotD

And like this is part of why the later got seasons and hotd from the start are plagued with writing issues

They had Jaime and them shaming Brienne for being a virgin like they were at a high school lunch table ignoring that WE ARE IN A MEDIAEVAL WORLD WITH ITS OWN LAWS AND CULTURE AND

Like ofc some things can be looked at with a more objective stance. Like ofc aegon is a pos rapist who should die but acting like he can't be king because of that is ignoring that so many kings have been exactly that??

The world has its rules. And part of that is why Dany and Rhaenyra are not alike. Rhaenyra isn't trying to change the rules or the world, she just wants her turn to be acknowledged. And that's fine but acting like she's the harbinger of feminism and liberty is actually insane

At the end of the day the show (not the book) is just a messy, jumbled, rushed, sometimes terrible, divorce drama

Can't believe ppl were comparing it to early got seasons give me a fucking break

[shieldofrohan]

Jaehaerys the douchebag was the real surprise of Fire & Blood. From him creating the whole Targaryen exceptionalism bullshit so he could bang his sister. And then of course there is his horrible treatment of his daughters. The callouness with having one hundred men strip naked in front of the one who was mentally disabled was just "dad of year". And this is the best king?

Hello @eonweheraldodemanwe ,

You have no idea how much I hated that Fire and Blood book and Jayjay was one of the biggest reasons. That annoying piece of sh*t lived that long just to p*ss me off.

This book made me rooting for Maegor. He really should have killed idiot Aenys' whole brood to save all of us from misery.

I don't even want to talk about that book. Yes it tells that ALL Targs suck but Martin really put very problematic and disturbing ideas in that book which totally ruined the series for me.

Anyway... That idiot Jayjay and fake feminist Alysanne were so fcking annoying and selfish. They married despite of the political situation Westeros in because of Targs' desire to fck each other and I was like: WHY? Selfish weirdos used their nukes to shut people up and came up with that Exceptionalism bullsh*t to shut people up for longer. Their daughter Daenerys dying of shivers and our beloved Khaleesi now shitting on grass really proved that TaRGs aRe sPeciaL.

What really bothered me with that book was that it felt like a joke. Yes, to certain degree that book was satire but written as a Targ propaganda. So it had two aspects of it.

1- This a Targ POV, therefore a propaganda so don't let it fool you.

2- This is a satire about how in subtext Targs sucked.

But it was also obvious that Martin tried to give an example of his ideal/good king with characters like Jayjay. Even though he makes sure that Jayjay was also an a*shole, he gives the hints of him being a good king.

I think (!) Martin believes that a good ruler doesn't have to be a good man and this is fine... I don't believe this idea, but I can respect it.

My problem was those hints of a good king. Because they didn't feel developed naturally.

[Btw, Martin sees Jayjay as a good king, I didn't come up with that idea: source]

Martin's attempts to paint Jayjay and Alysanne as good king and queen were laughable.

I know that Martin prefers the peaceful kings.. the ones who don't fight etc.

OK. But I find this idea unrealistic. Not all wars are for money and fame. His idea of a king who only cares about improving economy and good harvest is a little utopic.

And I think he cheated a little when he tried to show that Jayjay was a king who chose peace over fighting. Because that little sh*t didn’t have to fight in the first place. Meagor suddenly dies, so does Septon Moon, Joffrey Doggett starts serving him with tears in his eyes (WHY?) and Faith Militan got disbanded because let's incest weirdos who think they are gods defend the Faith. Aaaaand now you have a kingdom without any defiance. Wow Jayjay... you worked too hard dude, go fck your sister for a while.

Martin was like: "Hey this bloodpurist weirdo loves reading and talks about tax policy... obviously best king ever!".

Him wasting pages for his tax policy was such a weak attempt to make his point about Aragorn's tax policy. Because I didn't care about Jayjay's kingship in the first place. Yes a lot of awful leaders in the history managed to come up with good economical or whatever policies but those people actually sucked in the long run so we don't remember them as good leaders, therefore awful people can't be good rulers imo. Sorry not sorry. When I read Jayjay's reign, I didn't consider him as a good king for a second.

And his sister wife was even worse. She was like I HAVE TO BE HIS QUEEN!! Why? Because. Yeah ALIEsanne, only you can be a good queen, you freak. Let's be disrespectful and selfish to Westeros' people.

She was like: "I ended that barbaric first night tradition (I wonder why Martin insisted on some "myth" about Middle Ages...) because look at the poor women who suffered because of barbaric Northern Lords (she works on this after her visit to North was so?????). What would Westeros do without some white imperialist bloodpurists who are more sophisticated than barbaric Westeros lords???"

And she got surprised when Valyrian lords were also into prima nocta but HEY, women in Dragonstone were happy about it because Valyrians were not some simple lords! They were GODS!!! Such a blessing! Because women love being used by "gods".

She was like: "Women can RULE too" But she usupers her sister's right. And Martin tries to paint her as a good queen because she let women speak. She believes she is superior!!! Who cares about her fake woke white feminism?!

ANYWAY. Both Jayjay and ALIEsanne were awful and I didn't read them as good king and queen. I think Martin's philosophy of "bad people can be good rulers" wasn't for me. Because I believe that a ruler who believes he/she is superior than normal people can't be a good ruler. Ofc, good ones makes mistakes too but were talking about: Bloodpurism, racism, nuclear weapons and imperialism here. These are not some normal human faults. These are the recipe for a really awful rulership.

Another yikes about that book was that all anti Targ people were AWFUL or they died while they were fcking a horse!?. Only perverts, mad people, sexist pigs and bigots were anti Targ during the whole book. And people of Westeros were ok with Targs... Yeah who wouldn't love some white people with nukes come to invade your land? This is some white American thing, I guess...

When people of Westeros killed some geckos because some old smelly mad man provoked them to do, they felt bad afterwards!?!??! Literally all book was a joke and you can't force it to make sense by only saying that this was written as a Targ propaganda because Martin CHOSE to write this way. And I can't unsee the problematic aspects... This book screamed: "AN OLD WHITE AMERICAN WROTE ME".

I love Martin, but I wish he didn't write this book at all. If I sound bitter about him lately, this book is the reason. I wasn't expecting sth this awful.

And the book wasn't even pleasing to read. It had no literary value. Just bunch of unnecessary information (like the Septa who wrote a naughty book) about annoying and awful people.

It lacked the aspects that made Asoiaf great like the psychological side of the characters or character developments and arcs and beautiful POVs...

But it shares one of Asoiaf's weak points: NO POV from anti Targ people. He failed to give a POV to people in Essos against Dany in main books and this created the DANY THE WHITE SAVIOUR. He makes the same mistake in this book too and I hated it... I wish he wrote this book from different perspectives in Westeros. But too late.

In conclusion: I HATED THAT BOOK. But at least it showed one thing clearly: ALL TARGS SUCK.

Thanks for the ask.

[esther-dot]

Sansa actually enjoy feminine coded activities like music, dance, poetry, sewing etc. I often see argument she is only enjoy as a performing femininity while Arya is truly feminine 🤔. Sure Arya was bullied by her septa and does have insecurities but she never bit seen interested in those aspects. Hell she got bored in history lessons. I don't think she will enjoy these things even if she grown up.

Wait, I thought they hated Sansa because she liked that stuff? Because her interests made her useless? Because she was boring? Now they’re saying, she sucks because she isn’t sincerely interested in it? I can’t keep track of all the ways Sansa is bad/wrong. It’s almost like...it has nothing to do with her and everything to do with antis concocting reasons to hate her? I’m shocked!

I think readers need to take a step back and realize that while Westeros might have a very limited view of what is/isn’t feminine, we do not need to adopt it. Martin once mentioned how he was influenced by a certain brand of feminism when writing Arya, so I don’t think the point is to argue about who is more feminine, but simply write a girl who challenges gender norms for her time, a girl who doesn’t want to be what society expects of her:

"Your mother and I have charged her with the impossible task of making you a lady."

'I don't want to be a lady!" Arya flared. (AGOT, Arya II)

We should be happy that Arya understands herself at such a young age. It baffles me that her fans want to insist that no, she actually wants the same stuff Sansa does, or that no, Sansa doesn’t actually want the things she dreams of. This isn’t a shell game. It’s pretty clear who these girls are from their introductions, and just because Martin shoved an awful lot of...well, awful into the story to make it realistic doesn’t mean that one girl is right and the other is wrong. They’re simply different. We can appreciate both. Gasp! 

I have to say I disagree with Ned and totally agree with you re: Septa Mordane. She is awful. She had no business being in a position of authority over kids, so I’m not sure why people always skip over her impact on Arya and want to hold Sansa responsible for everything. 

About Arya’s interest in history/lack thereof, I think people learn in different ways and Arya is very smart, but sitting still and memorizing dry facts is hard for any child. Especially when the teacher has created such an awful learning environment. To me, this reaction to lessons:

“Whenever Septa Mordane had gone on about the history of this house and that house, she was inclined to drift and dream and wonder when the lesson would be done.” (ACOK, Arya VII)

Isn’t surprising in the least. How could you expect a kid to learn from someone who verbally abused them? Most children don’t respond well to lists of names/dates. Contrast it to her reaction when getting to learn by being engaged with people:

“At Winterfell, he always had an extra seat set at his own table, and every day a different man would be asked to join him. One night it would be Vayon Poole, and the talk would be coppers and bread stores and servants. The next time it would be Mikken, and her father would listen to him go on about armor and swords and how hot a forge should be and the best way to temper steel. Another day it might be Hullen with his endless horse talk, or Septon Chayle from the library, or Jory, or Ser Rodrik, or even Old Nan with her stories.

Arya had loved nothing better than to sit at her father's table and listen to them talk.” (AGOT, Arya II)

I’m sure a more understanding teacher, someone who wanted to help, could have taught Arya what she needed to learn about the houses if she had purposed to find a way to connect it to her interests.

[brianwilly]

Game of Thrones did the thing that a couple of shows do where...it likes feminism.  It understood that feminism is important.  It wanted to be feminist.  It was cognizant of the fact that its setting was brazenly and intentionally misogynistic, and so it was even more important for its independent narrative to empower its female characters instead of mindlessly reinforcing the toxic beliefs of its own fictional world.  The whole point of the story, after all, was “this society is toxic, can our heroes survive it?” and so the narrative was voluntarily self-critical.

And so it knew to give us badass assassin Arya.  It knew to give us stalwart knight Brienne.  It gave us the pirate queen and the dragon queen and the Sansa getting revenge after revenge upon all the men who’d wronged her, and far more besides, and it talked big about breaking chains and how much men fucked things up and how great it would be if only women were in charge and et cetera et cetera.  And it’s, in fact, all actually really good that it had those things.  And because there were so very many moving parts of this story, it was super easy to look at those certain moving parts and think, yeah, they’ve done it!  They done good!

And it’s easy to forget and forgive -- to want to forget and forgive -- all the dead prostitutes that were on this show and the rapes used as motivation and fridgings and objectifications and the...y’know, whatever the hell Dorne was and Lady Stoneheart who? It’s easy to forget that this show actually played its hand a long time ago in regards to, like, what its relationship with feminism was going to be, and then kept playing the same hand again and again, to disappointing results.

Game of Thrones likes feminism.  It wanted to be feminist.  But its relationship with feminism was still predicated on some of the same old narratives and the same old storytelling trends that have disempowered female characters in the past, and so any progressive ideas it might have about women in its setting were nonetheless going to be constrained by those old fetters. As a result, its portrayal of women varied anywhere from glorious to admirable to predictable to downright cringeworthy.

New ideas require new vessels, new stories, in which to house them.  And for Game of Thrones, the ultimate story that it wanted to tell -- the ultimate driving force and thesis statement around which it was basing its entire journey and narrative -- was unfortunately a very old one, and one very familiar to the genre.

“Powerful women are scary.”

(Yes, I’m obviously making Yet Another Daenerys Essay On The Internet here)

So we have this character, this girl really, a slave girl who was sold and abused, and then she overcomes that abuse to gain power, she gains dragons, and she uses that power to fight slavery.  She fights slavery really well, like, she’s super hella good at it.  Her command of dragons is the most overt portrayal of “superpowers” in this world; she is the single most powerful person in this story, more powerful than any other character and the contest is not close.

But then...something really bad happens and oops, she gets really emotional about it and then she’s not fighting slavery anymore...she’s kinda doing the opposite!  This girl who was once a hero and a liberator of slaves instead becomes an out-of-control scary Mad Queen who kills a ton of innocent people and has to be taken down by our true heroes for the good of the world.

That’s the theme.  That’s the takeaway here.  That’s how it all ends, with one of the most primitive, archaic propaganda ever spread by writers, that women with power are frightening, they are crazy, they will use that power for ill.  Women with power are witches.  They are Amazons.  They will lop off our manhoods and make slaves of us.  They seduce our rightful kings and send our kingdoms to ruin.   They cannot control their emotions. They get hot flashes and start wars.  They turn into Dark Phoenixes and eat suns.  They are robot revolutionaries who will end humanity.  Powerful women are scary.

And let me emphasize that the theme here is not, in fact, that all power corrupts, because the whole Mad Queen concept for Daenerys actually ends up failing one of the more fundamental litmus tests available when it comes to representation of any kind: “would this story still happen if Dany was a man?” And the fact is that it would not.   And indeed we know this for a fact because “protagonist starts out virtuous, gains power in spite of the hardships set against him, gets corrupted by that power, and ends up being the bad guy” didn’t happen, and doesn’t happen, to the guys in the very same story that we’re examining.  It doesn’t happen to Jon Snow, Dany’s closest and most intentional narrative parallel.  It doesn’t happen to Bran Stark, a character whose entire journey is about how he embroils himself in wild dark winter magic beyond anyone’s understanding and loses his humanity in the process.  In fact, the only other character who ever got hinted of going “dark” because of the power that they’re obtaining is Arya, the girl who spent seven seasons training to fight, to become powerful, to circumvent the gender role she was saddled with in this world...and then being told at the end of her story, “Whoa hey slow down be careful there, you wouldn’t wanna get all emotional and become a bad person now wouldja?” by a man.

(meanwhile Sansa’s just sitting off in the side pouting or whatever ‘cuz her main arc this season was to, like, be annoyed at people really hard I guess)

‘Cuz that’s the danger with the girls and not the boys, ain’t it?  Arya and Jon are both great at killing people, but there is no Dark Jon story while we have to take extra special care to watch for Arya’s precious fragile humanity.  Dany has the power of dragons while Bran has the power of the old gods, but we will not find Dark Lord Bran, Soulless Scourge of Westeros, onscreen no matter how much sense it should make. “Power corrupts” is literally not a trend that afflicts male heroes on the same level that it afflicts female heroes.

Oh sure, there are corrupt male characters everywhere, tyrants and warlords and mafia bosses and drug dealers and so forth all over your TVs, and not even necessarily portrayed as outright villains; anti-heroes are nothing new.  But we’re talking about the hero hero here; the Harry Potters, the Luke Skywalkers, the Peter Parkers.  The Jon Snows.   They interact with corruptive power, yes; it’s an important aspect of their journeys.  But the key here being that male heroes would overcome that corruption and come through the other side better off for it.  They get to come away even more admirable for the power that they have in a way that is generally not afforded towards female heroes.

There are exceptions, of course; no trends are absolutely absolute one way or the other. For instance, the closest male parallel you’d find for the “being powerful is dangerous and will corrupt your noble heroic intentions” trope in popular media would be the character of Anakin Skywalker in the Star Wars prequel trilogy...ie, a preexisting character from a preexisting story where he was conceived as the villainous foil for the heroes.  Like, Anakin being a poor but kindhearted slave who eventually becomes seduced by the dark side certainly matches Dany’s arc, but it wasn’t the character’s original story and role.  And even then?...notice how Anakin as Vader the Dark Lord gets treated with the veneer of being “badass” and “cool” by the masses.  A male character with too much power -- even if it’s dark power, even if it’s corruptive -- has the range to be seen as something appealingly formidable, and not just as an obstacle that has to be dealt with or a cautionary tale to be pitied.

And in one of the few times that this trope was played completely straight, completely unironically with a male hero -- I’m thinking specifically of Hal Jordan the Green Lantern, of “Ryan Reynolds played him in the movie” fame -- the fans went berserk.  They could not let it go.  The fact that this character would go mad with power because a tragedy happened in his life was completely unacceptable, the story gained notoriety as a bad decision by clueless writers, and today the story in question has been retconned -- retroactively erased from continuity -- so that the character can be made heroic and virtuous again.  That’s how big a deal it was when a male hero with the tiniest bit of a fan following goes off the deep end.

To be clear, I’m not here to quibble over whether the story of Dany turning evil was good or bad, because we all know that’s going to be the de facto defense for this situation: “But she had to go mad!  It was for the sake of the story!“ as if the writers simply had no choice, they were helpless to the whims of the all-powerful Story God which dictates everything they write, and the most prominent female character of their series simply had to go bonkers and murder a bajillion babies and then get killed by her boyfriend or else the story just wouldn’t be good, y’know?  Ultimately though, that’s not what I’m arguing here, because it doesn’t actually matter.  There have been shitty stories about powerful women being bad.  There have been impressive stories about powerful women being bad.  Either way, the fact that people can’t seem to stop telling stories about powerful women being bad is a problem in and of itself.  Daenarys’ descent into Final Boss-dom could’ve been the most riveting, breathtaking, masterfully-written pieces of art ever and it’d still be just another instance of a female hero being unable to handle her power in a big long list of instances of this shitty trope.  The trope itself doesn’t become unshitty just because you write it well.

It all ultimately boils down to the very different ways that men and women -- that male heroes and female heroes -- continue to be portrayed in stories, and particularly in genre media.  In TV, we got Dany, and then we also have Dolores Abernathy in Westworld who was a gentle android that was abused and victimized for her entire existence, who shakes off the shackles of her programming to lead her race in revolution against their abusers...and then promptly becomes a ruthless maniac who ends up lobotomizing the love of her life and ends the season by voluntarily keeping a male android around to check her cruel impulses.  Comic book characters like Jean Grey and Wanda Maximoff are two of the most powerful people in their universe but are always, in-universe, made to feel guilty about their power and, non-diegetically, writers are always finding ways to disempower them because obviously they can’t be trusted with that much power and entire multiple sagas have been written about just how bad an idea it is for them to be so powerful because it’ll totally drive them crazy and cause them to kill everyone, obviously.  Meanwhile, a male comic character like Dr. Strange -- who can canonically destroy a planet by speaking Latin really hard -- or Black Bolt -- who can destroy a planet by speaking anything really hard -- will be just sitting there, two feet on the side, enjoying some tea and running the world or whatever because a male character having untold uninhibited power at his disposal is just accepted and laudable and gets him on those listicles where he fights Goku and stuff.

In my finite perspective, the sort of female heroes who have gained...not universal esteem, perhaps, but at least general benign acceptance amongst the genre community are characters who just don’t deal with all that stuff.  I’m thinking of recent superheroes like Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel, certainly, but also of surprise breakout hits like Stranger Things’ Eleven (so far) or even more niche characters like Sailor Moon or She-Ra.  The fact that these characters wield massive power is simply accepted as an unequivocal good thing, their power makes them powerful and impressive and that’s the end of the story, thanks for asking.  And when they deal with the inevitable tragedy that shakes their worldview to the core, or the inevitable villain trying to twist them into darkness, they tend to overcome that temptation and come out the other side even stronger than when they started.  In other words?...characters like these are being allowed the exact same sorts of narrative luxuries that are usually only afforded towards male heroes.

The thing about these characters, though, is that they tend to be...well, a little bit too heroic, right?  A lil’ bit too goody-two-shoes?  A bit too stalwart, a bit too incorruptible?  And that’s fine, there’s certainly nothing wrong with a traditionally-heroic white knight of a hero.  But what I might like to see, as the next step going forward, is for female heroes to be allowed a bit more range than just that, so that they’re not just innocent children or literal princesses or shining demigods clad in primary colors.  Let’s have an all-powerful female hero be...well, the easiest way to say it is let’s see her allowed to be bitchier.  Less straightlaced.  Let’s not put an ultimatum on her power, like “Oh sure you can be powerful, but only if you’re super duper nice about it.” Let us have a ruthless woman, but not one ruled by ruthlessness.  Let us have a hero who naturally makes enemies and not friends, who has to work hard to gain allies because her personality doesn’t sparkle and gleam.  Let her have the righteous anger of a lifelong slave, and let that anger be her salvation instead of her downfall.

In other words, let us have Daenerys Targaryen.  And let us put her in a new story instead of an old one.

[jackoshadows]

Pretty much yeah. There’s so much damaging rhetoric about women and young girls that’s treading closely to radfem/terf rhetoric in these discussions around Sansa and Arya. I don’t watch HOTD or participate in discussion there but I have come across similar discourse around Alicent.

Also, the gaslighting is extensive and pervasive that most people who don’t know the books or even the show think that Sansa is only disliked or gets criticism because she’s a girly girl. This viewpoint exploded when the show became popular and Sophie Turner gave interviews like this:

Sophie Turner: It annoys me that people only like the feminine characters when they act like male characters. And they always go on about feminism. Like, you’re rooting for the people who look like boys, who act like boys, who fight like boys. Root for the girls who wear dresses and are intellectually very strong. 

And we had viral posts like this which got thousands of likes:

At no point have I ever seen any criticism of Sansa because she likes songs and romance and sewing. And yet the discourse has again and again been twisted and bend into Sansa getting hate because she’s ‘feminine’.

Notice how they foward the idea that any criticism of Sansa is only from ‘fanboys’ - this widely pushed notion is why I used to get hate in my inbox calling me a ‘dudebro��� and a ‘white male Nazi’ who deserved to be shot dead and all the Jonsa/Sansa stans deliberately misgendering me to give the false impression of ‘fanboys’ hating Sansa.

One needs only to look at male dominated subreddits like ASoIaF reddit to understand which female characters get the most hate from male asoiaf fans...hint: It’s not Sansa. It’s the female character who is at the center of her own plot and has 3 dragons and is the most powerful character in Westeros.

And that’s the problem with any discourse around this topic. As you mention, there’s been a decade of misinformation and deliberate gaslighting in the fandom and it carried into the show by D&D and the actors leading to the horrendous and sexist writing for the way female characters were written - perfectly described here:

https://valyrianwarg.tumblr.com/post/695620229996347392/i-hated-how-arya-was-demonized-in-season-7-how

Just a not so friendly reminder that posts like these are inherently incorrect and misogynistic:

There is nothing more feminine about Sansa than there is about any other character who identifies as female -- Arya included. If anything, Sansa is less feminine than women who advocate for gender equality since there is nothing feminine about idealizing restrictions on women nor thinking women should change themselves to fit male ideals -- as Sansa and her stans do. You can't force someone to not be critical of your fav by pretending their misogyny, classism, and ableism are feminine. Those traits in Sansa gain her criticism from readers not the fact that she's female. Others who share her values like Joffrey and Lord Tarly are criticized as well.

Trying to phrase it as "traditional femininity" is also ridiculous since the traditions they're basing their limited view of womanhood on are 1) dictated by a male desire to control female behavior and 2) they are more of a reflection of Western European values for noble women from centuries ago rather than anything legitimate. If you want to go the "traditional" route, why not look to far older cultures? The answer to that is because this isn't about "traditional" or "femininity" no more than misogynists like "Classically Abby" actually care about about being classic. This is about hating women who don't fit within male created restrictions, trying to gatekeep femininity, and trying pressure others into conforming.

Sansa stans have been using this argument as a way to hate on Arya and her fans for more than a decade at this point. So this person isn't reinventing the misogyny wheel. But this sexism does need to be called out.

[lo-lynx]

Masculine embodiment in ASOIAF- aka, what’s up with the eunuchs?

CW: Sexism, cissexism, rape, sex, description of genitalia and bodily functions.

Spoilers: All of A Song of Ice and Fire, and a tiny spoiler from Game of Thrones season 8.

“’I hold the man’s balls in the palm of my hand.’ He cupped his fingers, smiling. ‘Or would, if he were a man, or had any balls.’” (Martin 1996/2011, 194) Ah, classic Littlefinger burn about Varys. In George RR Martin’s world of ASOIAF such jokes are frequent, but when last time when I re-read A Game of Thrones this one joke in Ned’s fourth chapter stuck out. Perhaps it was because I had recently watched the last season of Game of Thrones where Varys comments on Tyrion’s ever-present jokes about Varys being a eunuch (Game of Thrones 2019, 04:27). Perhaps it’s because issues of gender and sexuality interest me in general (see: all of this blog). Regardless, it got me interested at seeing how eunuchs are described in the books. I soon found that the connection between a man’s genitals and masculinity seemed to be very strong. Now, before I go any further, I feel like two disclaimers are in order. 1: I’m not saying that having a penis is necessary to be a man, I’m saying that both our society and the world of ASOIAF seems to think so. 2: I’m not saying that GRRM thinks this either, I have no idea what his personal stance on these things are, but I’m saying that he seems to have transferred these views from our world into his world. Now that we’ve got that out of the way, why focus on this aspect of masculine embodiment in ASOIAF? Well, as I intend to show in this analysis, by analysing how eunuchs are portrayed in the books, I think one can infer quite a bit of how men and masculinity is conceived of in Westeros and beyond. So, firstly I want to give a brief overview of how sex/gender was conceived of in our medieval world (mostly to show how this DOES NOT seem to match ASOIAF), and secondly how these things are conceived of in more modern times and compare this to ASOIAF.

So, before the 18th century or so, European conception sex/gender relied on what has afterwards been called a “one-sex model” (Mottier 2008, 33). This model was very influenced by the Greek philosophical idea that men’s bodies were active, hot and strong; women’s bodies being passive, weak, damp and cold (ibid, 5).

As the historian Thomas Laqueur has pointed out, the classical model of gender involved a ‘one-sex model’: since gender was fluid, men risked becoming more feminized if they lost heat, while women could become more like men if their bodies heated up. The psychological consequences of such beliefs was [sic] that gender did not appear as a stable, biological characteristic, but as an identity that was potentially under threat. (Mottier 2008, 6)

That is to say, during this time sex/gender was seen as fluid, and not a biological fact. As mentioned, this view didn’t really change until the 18th century. Mottier describes that shift like this:

From the 18th century, the traditional idea of the ‘one-sex’ body, which conceptualized women’s bodies as similar but inferior versions of male bodies (with female genitals being thought of as internal, much smaller versions of male genitals) started to be replaced with the idea of a clear biological differentiation between men and women. Male and female bodies came to be seen as fundamentally, biological different, not as part of the same hierarchical continuum. The gender hierarchy remained, however. (Mottier 2008, 33)

From this we can infer then, that during the medieval period in Europe, female bodies were perceived as sort of defect versions of male bodies, not fundamentally biologically different. It was after this model was replaced with the ‘two-sex model’ that men and women were seen as biologically different creatures. This biological difference also began being used as a justification for social difference (and inequality) between men and women. That is not to say that such social difference didn’t exist before that, but it wasn’t though to be the result of biological differences in the same way. In my view, this later conceptualisation of sex/gender is much more in line with how sex/gender seems to be perceived in ASOIAF. Throughout the books there are several references of women being of the gentle/weaker sex, or similar descriptions. One such is in Catelyn’s last chapter in A Game of Thrones when Catelyn tries to persuade Robb’s lords to sue for peace with the Lannisters. The Greatjon then says that because she is a woman she does not understand such things, while Lord Karstark says: “You are the gentle sex (…) a man has a need for vengeance.” (Martin 2011, 770) Such a view, seeing the female sex as gentler/weaker than the male sex, seems much more in line with a “two-sex model” than the “one-sex model” that would’ve existed in Medieval Europe. I shall therefore proceed to explain the male body has been conceived in more modern times.

In general, one can say that the male subject is expected to embody strength, toughness, and have a capability to exercise power over a space (Whitehead 2002, 189). This expectation also carries through to expectations of men’s sexuality, which is why many aging men might start to lose confidence in their sexuality when they can’t live up to this expectation (ibid, 200). This connection between masculinity and strength, virility etc. also impacts the importance being put on having “normal” genitalia. As Fausto-Sterling writes about the male body, from a medical point of view, the existence of a “functional” penis is often considered crucial for manhood (1995, 130). This is taken to the extreme that children born with a penis that is considered too small (even though the size of the penis at birth doesn’t seem to be a good indicator of adult size) will have their genitalia surgically changed into a vagina (for more on surgery on intersex children see for example: Amnesty 2017). Presumably this is partly because the sexual act of penetration is so closely linked to masculinity, that having a penis that is considered “too small” for this is inconceivable (as someone who works with sex education, I just want to add SIZE DOESN’T MATTER THAT MUCH. Just communicate with your partner and figure out what works for you!) Other studies have also analysed the way testicles are perceived in modern society and found that those seem to be closely connected to masculinity as well (Karioris & Allan 2017). The most obvious example of this is of course the phrase “grow a pair”, said when wanting someone to toughen up. Kaioris and Allan also write that fear of castration is often linked with a fear of losing one’s masculinity. This is all to say, that in our society genitalia seems to be very important to manhood and being “a real man”. Now, is this also the case in ASOIAF?

Short answer, yes. One example is of course the quote with which I started this text, when Littlefinger seems to equate Varys’ lack of testicles with his lack of manhood. Another example comes from A Clash of Kings when Tyrion expresses a similar sentiment when comparing himself to Varys: “Yet I’m still a man.” (Martin 1999/2011, 120). But the linking of lack of genitals with lack of masculinity doesn’t stop with Varys, it is also something we see with Theon after his torture by Ramsey. He himself thinks that he is no man (Martin 2011/2012, 566). Later, when Ramsey forces him to be a part of raping Jeyne Poole, he jokes about Theon (not) getting an erection by seeing Jeyne, and then says that Theon is: “Not even a man, in truth.” (Martin 2011d, 582). This equating of (lack of) a penis and testicles with (a lack of) masculinity/manhood isn’t contained to Westeros, however. Daenerys thinks a similar thing when describing the unsullied in A Storm of Swords: “(…) they were no men at all. The Unsullied were eunuchs, every one of them.” (Martin 2000/2011, 314). Speaking of Daenerys, in A Game of Thrones we learn from her chapters that in Dothraki culture, the only ones who ride in carts are those with a disability, women giving birth, the very old and the very old. Oh, and eunuchs (Martin 1996/2011, 373). Here it becomes very clear that eunuchs are seen as weak and unmanly when they are grouped together with pregnant women, old people and those with disabilities. How disability is portrayed in ASOIAF is not something I will go into further here, but I recommend the text “Power and Punishment in Game of Thrones” by Mia Harrison that does explore that. However, it seems clear that those with disabilities are not seen as “real men” either.

So, based on this, we can see that the Westerosi (and Essosi) view of what a man is seems to presume that he is strong, active and virile. It is apparently also very important to have functioning genitalia (whatever that even means). Therefore, those who cannot live up to that, such as eunuchs, are not real men. This is a very narrow definition of masculinity and manhood, yet it unfortunately rings true in our world as well. Not only does it exclude trans folx completely, it also limits people of all genders. We see the consequences of that in ASOIAF when Brianne is excluded from knighthood based on her gender, and in the way people of Westeros treat all of its “imperfect” men. And we can most definitely see it in our own world.

  References

Amnesty International. (2017). “First, do no harm: ensuring the rights of children born intersex.” Accessed 1 December, 2019. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/05/intersex-rights/

Game of Thrones. (2019) Winterfell. [TV-show]

Harrison, Mia. (2018). “Power and Punishment in Game of Thrones”, pp. 28-43 in Schatz, J L & Amber E George (Eds.), The Image of Disability: Essays on Media Representations. North Carolina: McFarland & Company, Inc.

Fausto-Sterling, Anne (1995). “How to build a man”, pp. 127-134 in Berger, Maurice, Brian Wallis and Simon Watson (eds.) (1995). Constructing Masculinity, Routledge, New York

Martin, George RR. (1996/2011). A Game of Thrones. Harper Voyager: London

Martin, George RR. (1998/2011). A Clash of Kings. Harper Voyager: London

Martin, George RR. (2000/2011). A Storm of Swords 1: Steel and Snow. Harper Voyager: London

Martin, George RR. (2011/2012). A Dance with Dragons. Harper Voyager: London

Mottier, Véronique. (2008). Sexuality: A Very Short Introduction. Oxford: Oxford University Press

Whitehead, Stephen M. (2002). Men and Masculinities, Cambridge and Malden: Polity, pp. 181-204

[clarasimone]

A perspective on the forewarning fascist iconography in GoT

Was it yesterday ? I reacted to a mind-provoking aesthetic analysis of GoT reblogged by @felixthemudnescat ... which basically no one reacted to (LOL) but... chatting with @scratchybeardsweetmouth and @ser-jorah-the-andal, I felt like revisiting it to add observations to my initial reaction. Even if it’s too heavy-meta for such a beautiful summer day. @felixthemudnescat pardon me for not using the reblog button cause I want to do this under the dot-dot-dot so as not to weigh down the usual degree of levity in our tumblr group ;-)

Also I only realized today that you actually reblogged without commenting and I assumed, maybe wrongly, that you adhered completely to what you reblogged. And that might not be the case, so I’ll alter my text accordingly...

So here we go... (my input comes at the end)

Anonymous asked:

Girl. Gurl. Who the fuck is Leni Riefenstahl? Y'all Sansa stans pulling the most elaborate nonsense out of your asses to justify shitty writing. Or you twist everything and make D&D sound as if they're the most brilliant minds the world has ever seen LOL

fedonciadale answered:

Hi there!

If you would have taken one moment to look up Leni Riefenstahl - and I assure you that it is not difficult to look her up - you would not have combined your question with a comment about the writing…. Look her up and learn a lesson about how tyrants manipulate.

The visuals of the show are alluding to famous/ notorious shots of Leni Riefenstahl. You would agree that the visuals are something that gives us hints? In addition to the dialogue?

Sansa stans have complained about the writing since season 5…. You all - I’m just assuming you are a Dany fan, correct me if I’m wrong - had no complaints about shitty writing in season 7?

Look I am not saying that the way D&D got to DarkDany this season was well executed, but the foreshadowing and the character development are there. And actually from all the things the show did Daenerys is one of the better from book to screen. The hiding of her path to ruthlessness by filming from her POV is well done in season 1 to 6, and the triumphant visuals are part of that.

Visuals are part of the foreshadowing. It did not come out of nowhere and it was always a major plot point - as has been argued by book readers for ages. That Dany blew up King’s Landing was always to be the culmination of her arc. And it was always meant to hit you in the gut. So, as you do nicely put it : get your head out of your ass as and realise that you have been duped. And ponder about why? Was it because Dany is beautiful? Was it because she had the occasional bouts of benevolence? Was it because you thought she was entitled to an ugly chair because she suffered? Was it because she was set up against people coded as villains, so that you don’t care about how she defeated them? Was it because she is a woman and woman can’t be evil?

Take your pick and learn something about yourself and your own bias, how we can be duped by a tyrant! If you do that you are doing exactly what GRRM intended his readers to do by writing Dany like he did.

une-nuit-pour-se-souvenir

(in fiction, all these logos meant to reference the nazi flag)

fedonciadale

Reblogging for @une-nuit-pour-se-souvenir ’s excellent additions. I could not have done that because that film is actually forbidden in Germany.

justacynicalromantic

Ohhhohohoho the last one - I am😏 at people who half a year ago threw stones at me when I argued that Dany has always had parallels with Hitler.

felixthemudnescat

Found this shared on Quora, had to re-blog!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi @felixthemudnescat​ long time no see !

I had not seen the original posting of this. My first instinctual reaction to this iconographic/aesthetics research is to object to the simple equation of Daenerys with Hitler. No fiction character will ever match the scope of evil (for lack of a better word) this man and his ideology represented. By ricochet and association, it makes every fan who was moved by Daenerys a potential Nazi sympathizer and that makes no sense. It’s also unnecessarily hurtful and insulting both to these fans and the real World (those who suffered and still suffer from The Holocaust). This said, the iconographic evidence you provided through your reblog has weight and is exactly what I referred to in some of my posts as the visual clues given in the show as to Dany’s *possible* arc, its *possible* finality (more on the *possible* further down); clues which scream at you if you have the cultural baggage to recognize them, and when you binge-watch the series 3 times in one month instead of watching it an ep at the time over 8-9 years. The middle seasons are especially ripe with these visual signs because they’re tagged unto somewhat repetitious narrative (Dany freeing/conquering one city at a time with little intimate character dev scenes). And @fedonciadale is right in wanting fans to look more closely into themselves; we shouldn’t close ours eyes on the shady ideological and moral symbols casting shadows on Daenerys throughout the seasons. But they were shadows. I don’t think they were meant to be the beginning and end to all things explaining the character.

@felixthemudnescat​ or @fedonciadale don’t you think D&D were building something much more subtle than the end result they opted for and which gives weight to your comparative iconographic essay ? For many seasons, the fascist references or foreboding reminders of Targaryen madness never outweighed the characterizations of Daenerys as a young woman who, regardless (or because ?) of her thwarted and abusive upbringing was trying to conjugate her own suffering and road to affirmation with the conquerer’s path given her. She might not have questioned the necessity/validity for her to conquer her way back to Westeros, as the only way she could get home, but she didn’t do it through simple rampage either. She did care to free the people she needed to build her armies. She did have a heart. This she did spontaneously; it came from a deep source within her, not a calculated one. Even if, of course, it turned out to be an astute strategy. And that sets her apart from the Nazis and its leader. At their best, D&D conjugated the two: giving us a rounded character build-up and evolution with ominous symbolic shadows lurking about her. @scratchybeardsweetmouth also made me realize, I who have not read the novels, that this humane aspect of Daenerys is brought even more to the foreground in the books. I quote @scratchybeardsweetmouth: “In the books (...) she repeatedly communicates firsthand with her freed people. She hears their opinions, is not afraid to mingle with them, always finds a way to protect them, even went out of her way to help heal some when a disease was about...” Without getting as much detailed info on her compassionate stance and actions in the show, it’s certainly the impression she indeed left us with, and it’s what her most faithful and steadfast companion, ser Jorah, sees in her and repeatedly says out loud, lest we forget it ;-) (“You have a gentle heart,” etc.)

So I thought it was IMMENSELY daring of D&D (or the novelist I’ve not read yet) to give us that scene where Daenerys is called Mhysa/Mother by the slaves she freed because the scene was inhabited with so many conflictual signs: I was all at once moved and sooooo worried as to where this could lead. Moved because, bottom line, these slaves are freed, actually freed, it’s the start of something. Dany has always given those she freed a choice to leave if they so wished… Moved because it’s a woman effecting the freeing, not a man… Moved because it’s Dany, the girl who suffered, who was a slave of sorts, that does the freeing, not her mentors…. Moved to see a culture refer to their freer as “Mother” (what a great homage to mothers, to women in general) / buuuuut also worried to see a culture refer to their freer as “Mother” because it seems to infantilize them on screen. 

Here we could also open up a whole debate about the malaise one can feel in seeing an Aristocratic White Woman free Third World People but I urge you to go read @khaleesirin‘s meta writings on the subject. She makes a great case for us NOT to see Daenerys in this fashion. Regardless of her looks and lineage, the novels (and GoT, I insist in my chats with @khaleesirin ;-) shows her to be like the people she frees: an Other. She like then is homeless, uprooted, migrant, disenfranchised. If we fail to see it in Essos, the show really drives this home once Daenerys sets foot in Westeros where NO ONE welcomes, understands or appreciates her. (Which suddenly complexifies our rapport to Sansa and the Northerners we grew to love and respect since they seem not to be above xenophobia, and racism.) 

But to get back to the Mhysa scene. Once the worrying starts, I can’t seem to stop it, even as I am moved to tears. Literally. Because of the above-mentioned qualities of it, and also possibly because of the Christ-like iconography it uses to celebrate Dany (”Let the little children come unto me” - if I may paraphrase the New Testament -- and thanks to @ser-jorah-the-andal for the reminder). And I’m always partial to feminizations of Christ; I love it, I think it’s sublimely subversive :-) But I’m also kicking myself for liking this because I fundamentally don’t want a Messiah saving the Third World, I want the Third World to save itself... and I’m worried. I’m really worried as I watch Daenerys triumph in this scene because we know she’s lacking important elements in her “psycho-affective and socio-political tool kit” (regardless of the quality and loving care of advisers now on hand, *cough* Jorah -- in the books @scratchybeardsweetmouth tells me she needs no advisor to keep her moral compass straight) and, so, will this get to her head ? Will she get drunk on her Messiah complex (and of course she does at the end of season 8) ? And what will happen if those she freed disappoint her (again flashforward to the end of season 8) ? And how will she rule them exactly (ditto) ? And, finally, yes, worried because, the fascist iconography is there and I’m going: omg where are they going with this ?

Here I want to open another parenthesis, also brought on by something @ser-jorah-the-andal wrote me: “if this is what they meant in the first place, they sure as hell didn’t bother to tell anyone in the cast so they could act accordingly, tho a case could be made that Dany never saw herself as the villain so that’s why they didn’t tell Emilia.” Indeed I’m sure the cast, or at the very least Emilia Clarke, were never told about the endgame, or never cued to the quoting of fascist iconography in some of Daenerys’ triumphant scenes. Clarke’s shocked reaction upon reading the last screenplays is a testament to her profound surprise... and this raises ethical questions, doesn’t it ? I mean in the ethics of creative partnership. It’s a recent debate possibly because there are so many tales of directors manipulating actors into giving them the performance needed to embody and communicate the discourse they want to leave us with. But the professional in me cringes here a bit. You’d hope they would trust actors enough to let them into what it is exactly they’re supposed to be creating...

This said, up to the moment before “the bells” scene in season 8, I had nonetheless seen D+D and EC give us a woman struggling morally with her choices. That’s important to state. And to get back to the above demonstration of fascist parallels, well, please, let’s point out that the Nazis and their leader never did struggle morally with what they were doing (or if they did, History bears no markers -- I’m talking about the Nazis here, not the German people as a whole). And I was prepared to see Daenerys fail because she never healed, she never achieved psycho-affective soundness (shall we get into the chapter of her misconstruing what love is ? Her relationship arc with Jorah speaks volumes) but I was expecting her to feel remorse if she did succumb to true fascism; remorse to the point of self-execution if you will, because that’s the kind of moral person D+D had been building for 7 years.  But after D&D sent her over the edge, they erased all the previous nuances they had built into her, and I believe, tried to explained it away with a broken heart, megalomania and madness…. 

So if their plan was truly to make us see her as a fascist leader of the scope we’re talking about here, the way the above visual essay seems to suggest, they would have fleshed out her character’s arc accordingly throughout the seasons, and they didn’t. There were clues as to the possibilities -- yes, Dany stepping out for her final speech is absolutely shot like Triumph of the Will by Riefenstahl… but it’s also infused with other iconographic references. That image of her merging with Drogon’s wings belongs to the fantastic, and makes her into a formidable and powerful Id, which can be construed as a positive subversive marker. And some of us do celebrate WrathfulDany for this reason.... 

The reality of GoT is that there were no actual scenes developing her fascist ideology. So let’s not confuse allusions to fascism with actual fascism. With all D+D’s failings towards the end, Daenerys remained a more nuanced and contradictory character than that. She is NOT Hitler, please...... 

The iconographic research you provided in your reblog @felixthemudnescat show us one important aspect of Dany’s subtextual arc but not the full picture. It’s missing the heart and the suffering behind the soul who fell from grace.

I hope you don’t construe this long winding reaction as a slam. I know you come from a very specific place in regards to Daenerys. I just thought the excellent research you provided deserved to be reblogged, but with an added perspective ;-)

[janiedean]

hello dearest (not) anon, excuse me if I don’t reply to you directly but as I want to block each single one of you I’ll keep the original so I can lovingly delete it after I’m finished. :)

now, I was this tempted to just delete or troll you, but as y’all have honestly seemed to not realize that you’ve gone overboard and that I didn’t want to get further involved with this dumb shipwar but you’re basically making me go like

so fine, whatever, I’ll address this one because it has all the single dumbest arguments we could have and I kind of want it for safekeeping, so.

point one: starting an ask with you freaks and then complain we don’t complain about jaime calling brienne ugly makes me wonder if you actually re-read your asks before you send them or if you even bother to make sure they’re internally coherent, because sorry but you’re basically saying this entire fandom is made of **freaks** which last I know was not a compliment to anyone’s aesthetic, so you already don’t have ground to stand on;

point two: stupid is actually a universally degrading word when referred to a specific person and used to undermine their intelligence, especially if continuously repeated. now, in *itself* it’s not damning - an argument can be stupid, a discussion can be stupid (I mean I’ve seen people savagely arguing over who had to wash the dishes, that’s a stupid reason to argue with anyone), a law can be stupid (all of italian bureaucracy is definitely a challenge for anyone for one), of course it’s all about how it’s used. for one, if used ironically and not meaning it, as in ‘my stupid son charging against dragons’, it’s not damning either, because wow, wait a moment, every single person who says that also knows that jaime is doing that out of ptsd fight instinct and that there’s nothing funny about it, but as we are people outside the narrative who love the character, we don’t mean it in a demeaning way. obviously charging at a dragon is suicidal, and it’s exactly what he’d have done (probably also in book canon I’ll give them that), but we all know why he did it, and btw dork is nowhere near on the same level as the stupidest lannister, it can be meant positively as well and tbh it’s used way more positively than that - I mean, there’s dorks in love and idiots in love as ao3 tags, no one uses them to insult the people in the ship they’re writing about now, do they? however, the whole thing about ‘the stupidest lannister’ is completely different because it implies cersei, someone jaime trusts implicitly and who’s his sister and, to him, also his lover and his other half - going by your own/their own definition - continuously demeaning his intelligence. now, I don’t think you quite realize how emotional abuse works or how that works, but let me tell you: if people you are that close with or have a fundamental impact in your upbringing (your parents, your siblings, your first teachers etc.) tell you that all the time, you end up believing that. and what comes with it? if you think you’re more stupid then them, then it means that their decisions will be better than yours because you’re too dumb to take them properly and they’re not, and you won’t even start to wonder that maybe they’re wrong and you’re right, and it’s an exceedingly common thing that happens between abusers and their victims, ie convincing them that they’re not smart enough to know what’s good for themselves, and so coming from cersei who also doesn’t want jaime to put two and two together and realize he’s a different person from her and actually, worse, doesn’t even consider the possibility that he might actually not be a different person from her, it’s straight up emotional abuse of the ugliest kind and it has nothing to do with *fans of the character* calling him a dork over his utter lack of smoothness when hitting on people, because we know why he doesn’t know how to hit on people. other than that, in the show they made jaime canonically dyslexic. now, if you even don’t get that calling someone stupid for thirty years will do a great fucking lot of damage to them (I mean, I’ve been told I was snobbish for three years by a teacher I didn’t even particularly admire in my formative years and I still have to finish unpacking the consequence of that shit, I can’t imagine being constantly demeaned by your relatives or people you trust implicitly) I doubt you’ll realize the fucking wrongness depths of the implication that the only lannister with a canon in-show learning disability is *the stupidest lannister* especially when there’s still the stigma about dyslexic people being dumb because *they can’t read* when that’s not true at all and they just need different ways of approaching a text and then they’re good to go and it has nothing to do with how smart or no they aren’t, but I’m going to tell you: it’s ableist as hell, falls under harmful stereotypes about dyslexic people that tv shows should go against, not reinforce and it has really disgusting connotations, so excuse me if I am pressed about it and other people are pressed about it and your opinion belongs in the trash and I really hope you’re not a teacher not are planning to become one;

point three: now we go at how you don’t get at all how those two work and how brienne’s character is structured, but here, let me explain you: a) jaime calls her ugly when they meet and after he loses the hand he only calls her ugly in his head and/or to her face when he’s irritated or she has misunderstood his intentions or he feels hurt by the fact that she misunderstood his intentions (when he gives her oathkeeper in the books), and in the show he stopped mid S3. on the other side, she calls him an oathbreaker and all the worst things she can call him - if you missed it, they insult each other and they start their relationship thinking the worst of the other person, and even with that he spends the entire first chapter of his in asos checking her out but you didn’t notice that I suppose; b) jaime does not call her ugly at all after he punches ronnet connington and in the show again he hasn’t since mid s3, and given that they were supposed to start as enemies and she insulted him right back, I won’t be here being pressed about them trading insults when the entire point of the story is that they stop insulting each other after they get to know each other and get closer to each other, or have you missed that too? c) the fact that he calls her ugly is actually narratively important because let me explain you something that you don’t know because you obv. haven’t read brienne’s chapters: most of the time she remembers being hurt by other men when it comes to her feelings, it’s when she found out they lied to her about her looks. she got her first trauma related to her looks when her septa told her that people who called her pretty were lying, and she got hurt during the bet with hyle and so on because those people were courting her and telling her nice things and then they were all planning on screwing her literally and metaphorically, so if someone went to brienne and told her ‘oh hey you look hot as hell let’s bang!!’, she wouldn’t believe them. let me guarantee you, she wouldn’t. the fact that jaime did not compliment her at all if not going all the way around to do it about her fighting prowess and maskerading it as insults means that he never lied to her about her looks or about anything, and the fact that then he changes and genuinely respects her and trusts in her and gives her THE THING SHE’S WANTED MOST IN HER LIFE ie a sword and a knightly quest and someone actually believing she could be a knight and carry out her vows instead of thinking she was a joke weights a lot more than any insult he might have thrown at her in the past and actually, she can trust him to not make fun of her/she can know for sure he’s not joking exactly because he never had a problem with calling her ugly (which she knows she is according to westeros beauty standards in the beginning) nor to tell her mean things when he thought them, and so since he never lied to her before and she can see that he changed, she has no reason to think he could or would lie to her after, and considering that most of her trauma is tied to having been lied to in that sense... sorry but no, it doesn’t bother me at all because if it’s an enemies to lovers kind of trope I really don’t think I’d expect him to gift her flowers at their first meeting. I mean, *enemies* to *lovers* implies that at the beginning they don’t like each other, or did you forget that words have meanings? also, hairy is not an insult. I suppose that for people who insult other people about the peach fuzz mustache most women have it would be an insult, but let me tell you: it’s not. and given that I’ve seen posts over posts about how it’s an expression of feminism to not shave I really think you haven’t even checked that discourse lately - personally I don’t care for it but like, having body hair is not automatically a crime nor a reason why you’re unattractive. get lost. and like, excuse me if insults traded by people who didn’t know each other and that they both outgrew when they did know each other are nowhere near on the same level of making someone think they’re too fucking stupid to take their own decisions and always have to follow someone else’s lead, and excuse me if I’m way more than mildly worried that anyone in this fandom would look at that stupidest lannister bullshit and actually don’t feel horrified at it.

now, honestly, can y’all just stop with this grasping at straws which happens to also be ableist as hell while pretending to give a fuck about brienne as a character - because you don’t, it’s obvious from how you don’t understand her issues at all - and keep to your own lane or what? because honestly, it’s obvious no one has ever called you ugly in your life and that you never had to deal with anyone demeaning your intelligence because you were most likely too busy demeaning other people’s, but you’ve been at this bullshit since 2013.

didn’t you get bored?\

[adecila]

Game of Thrones – 8x04 “The Last of the Starks” episode analysis – or who the fuck ever let D&D write stuff

You know I am pretty much like this dude here –

so I will be the woman to lead this ship or so help me all the old gods and the new.

Spoilers, d’uhh.

Aftermath - but everyone has their wardrobe on fleek, hair looking fab and they even had time to clean the entire field of Winterfell

The episode starts with the funeral pyre and how DARE you make me love Jorah even more and twist the knife in my heart. And did you have to show me Theon, Beric, Edd’s and Lyanna’s bodies??? 

RUDE.

Jon is doing a big speech and it is nice and drove the sobbing further, but I get it this is Jon’s turf so he has to be the one making the big speech. That is such a Dany thing though, and I can’t help to think, when put into perspective with the rest of the episode, that it’s yet again a thing Dany has lost. But more on that later. 

The pyres are lit, sad music, more sobbing from me. OOOPS BUT DID YOU CATCH THAT JONERYS EXCHANGE OF LOOKS? Because I did! I can’t help but think how he looks at her for reassurance and she feels it and she turns and she is just.so.broken. And then she cries and I cry again. 

A feast for crows the survivors 

And then we get a feast and suddenly everyone is happy and stuff… ok, I guess life goes on. Maybe Sandor’s crass remark, under the guise of a funny moment, was meant to make us think on it. But maybe that’s too deep for D&D who the fuck knows. 

Let’s talk about Gendry’s legitimisation. 

Dany does it quite publicly, and small exchange between her and Tyrion makes sense. Honestly, if she hadn’t done it herself then and there, it would have come up at a later point, but with 2 episodes left there’s no time. S.ansa does her shady looks because she throws shade and Bran just stares into the void smh. 

In which I am the Hound unimpressed and eating his chicken. 

Davos x Tyrion

The Lord of Light fucked off into the sunset when he saw D&D’s piss poor writing and honestly same. He probably fucked off when he saw Melisandre was still getting his prophecies wrong. 

Every time S.ansa comes into frame my soul leaves my body a bit more because whY THO. 

Tyrion x Bran the 3ER

Cool beans Bran, that’s how you use you abilities? OMG JOJEN FUCKING DIED FOR YOU–

“I mostly live in the past now” - to me this means Bran has become this empty shell of a man and he just visits the past and checks out cool shit. It’s like a kid who gets access to YouTube for the first time. Heck he can even see his dad or whoever else he misses if he feels anything at all now. Because if he doesn’t even have “wants” then? What was the point of it all? God I swear the writers will not rest until they will have reduced all characters to tropes and empty shells of their former selves.

Tormund and the gang around Jon; Tyrion with Jaime ; Dany alone

This scene right here was the beginning of the end. Remember when Tormund was a dude who was in awe by strong women? D&D don’t. He suddenly is so far up Jon’s ass nothing could take him out. Guess it pays off for him in the end since Jon just gifts him Ghost.

S.ansa just fucking stop OMG PLEASE STOP WITH THE FUCKING LOOKS JFC.

But where was Missandei??? Why was Dany alone? And what the fuck was that look, VArYs?? Someone give Dany a hug because my god the isolation is real. Fuck. STOP. TAKING. EVERYTHING. FROM HER.

Never have I ever… thought the writers would stoop so low but here we are

So it’s all fun and games until it isn’t. 

Poor Tormund. Jaime never deserved Brienne and that’s a fact. 

And the mystery of Willa, the sassy Northern girl has been solved! Bless!!!

SanSan, but with more misogynistic undertones than you ever thought

Yeah you know what, I am not touching this scene. Fuck D&D for daring to say that.

Gendrya - or the moment Gendry decided to pull a Ted Mosby 

I feel so bad OMG they did this ship so dirty. However. Arya saying that was expected. But I call bullshit on her never rethinking her decision. Girl’s got a list and she just can’t NOT try to finish it, I mean, wouldn’t you? After you killed such a big boss as the NK? 

At the same time, they would be trying for faux feminism, pulling a Arya doesn’t need a man to be happy. Guess the sex was just to try it? Wow can you believe they cheapened this ship and that beautiful moment like that? 

I’m so sorry babies, you deserved much better. Guess Gendry was always meant to have his heart broken by a Stark girl once he became a Baratheon. Wow. 

Weirdly enough!!! And spoiler maybe?? Leak? Idk. But I feel like Gendrya will prevail (also because she looks heartbroken to reject him like that…). When asked if Gendrya will rule the 7K, Friki said no, these two aren’t made for ruling anything. For what’s worth, Friki mentioned he does know Arya’s endgame and shebis confirmed alive in the Dragon Pit in 8x06 :)

Oathsex

Uff yeah I did not like that. It felt wrong in the context and it felt cheap and I…. yeah IDK. And then Jaime leaves. He could have at least told Brienne that he is he only one who can kill Cersei or IDK, but not leave her like that. Jeesh dude my poor Knight, she is gutted by him. 

Jonerys makeout and chat and hey who wanted angst? Turn on your location I just wanna chat. 

Sooo flip side: I somehow, for the second time, predicted a thing in my fic. HOWEVER D&D keep only getting half my fics because GURL DID YOU NOT GET THE SMUT MEMO? AND THE FLUFF MEMO?

So Dany goes to find Jon, again, who is tipsy, and Jon suddenly remembers to give Dany some comfort for having lost Jorah… 

The set up for Dany saying ILY it’s a bit .. ehh. But her actual words: “He loved me, but I couldn’t love him back, not the way he wanted it. Not the way I love you. Is that alright?” 

A+ scene. I love how he can’t help himself and as soon as she is in his arms’ range he just pulls her into him, BEFORE she asks “Is that alright?”. 

Uff emo side note here, this scene and this phrase reminded me of this song. Listen and sob. you’re welcome.

On that depressive note, wow that make out tho. Two things I learned from this scene: 1 - Jon is horny drunk, which same; and 2 - Jon is a tiddies guy like he dove in and went for the tiddies, which also same. Am I Jon? Is this why I keep guessing his fucking reactions but D&D won’t give me the rest????? We’ll never know.

And… then Jon stops and pulls back. And I KNOW that in the BTS we are told he is disgusted or whatever along those lines, but to me?? That look means he is CONFLICTED. And listen, if y’all wanted it to make it to mean "disgusted" then you should have made Kit do it differently since YOU KNOW HE WAS FAKE GAGGING TO EMILIA EVERY OTHER MINUTE. YOU CAN’T KEEP ADDING SHIT LATER YOU FUCKING DUMBASSES YOU EITHER PUT IT IN THE ACTUAL  SHOW AND THE ACTUAL ACTING OR STFU.

But I guess to me that rejection was more for the general audience than for us. C’mon he clearly loves her, his dick was so hard he was about to nut then and there. Stop bringing your 21st century considerations into a feudalistic fantasy where you have Royals and dragons. Also FUCK YOU VARYS BECAUSE EVEN IN THE NORTH AUNT AND NEPHEW MARRIED SO FUCK YOU BALDIE.

I digress. Then Dany echoes what Jon himself thinks/said - wishing she would have never known. And then we get something that I felt when she was alone and sad at the feast. “I saw the way they looked at you. I know that look; the same way people looked at me, but never on this side of the sea” - yeah so I need a break.

This here - cemented for me what I think the show is doing: stripping everything away from Dany: her armies, her children, her people and the love her people have for her… then Jon. And I don’t mean that as in the sense of some bullshit fleak. No, I mean it in the context of this episode. Because Jon never says I love you back (and maybe @normalisjustafairytale is right and Jon is afraid to say it after Ygritte), and he rejects her, and he says he can’t NOT tell his sisters, even if Dany begs him not to. So in a sense, for now at least, Jon is being taken away from her. So you have all this isolation and losing and losing and then what does she have left? The only constant in her life? The fucking Iron Throne. Because at the moment there is nothing else for her and she probably feels like she will be nothing without it. Hence why she presses to go and take Cersei down. I won’t lie to you, it is cheap writing and very lame and honestly I have read fics a million times better than this bullshit, but they will, at one point, hit us with the boatie reveal, and when that happens, and when Jon fucking finally pulls through and stands by her side, she will have something else, a different constant in life. Moreover, because she realises that the people here in Westeros will never love her, she will have even more of a reason to bow out, say a big fuck you, take her boatie and her hubs and get to her house with the red door. 

This is not just wishful thinking, it is very much D&D, and they will of course “humble the powerful woman” (I puked in my mouth by writing that). But also, my consolation is that with this episode, heck even the people who weren’t necessarily her fans, are on her side and asking her to burn KL down. Which I don’t think she would, but more on that in a different post. God this post is already long.

*bathroom break*

BAck. Then Dany echoes what I also said in my fic ugh I hate myself what we all know and are thinking: it doesn’t matter if Jon doesn’t want it; it matter that there are people out there (fucking S.ansa jfc this fucking UGGHDGugduzdahidfg) who don’t like Dany and will support Jon immediately over her. She is right and he is stupid for not seeing it. 

I guess I also got my bending the knee from my fic. Kinda. FUCK.ME.

I cannot believe that my Queen had to BEG him and Jon had to be so naive. BOY DID YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THE LESSON FROM YOUR FATHER? Two can keep a secret is one of them is dead, Jonno. Did you not watch Pretty Little Liars??? Why the fuck do you think Ned Stark didn’t tell his wife?? LMAO she would have sold him just like S.asnsa blabbed on you, guess the J___sas were right, it was a bit of a Ned x Cat parallel, probably Cat would have sold Ned also in a fucking instant. Dany is absolutely right. This shit cannot be contained because you don’t know how people would react to it. 

“She’s not the girl you grew up with” … BOOM.

I love how he cradles her face into his hands MY FUCKING HEART MY HEART.

Pause. The part where she begs remind me of this traumatic moment:

… fuuuuck. Anyway.

And I love how she turns the tables on him. But Jon… is still Jon for plot reasons I guess. Maybe he didn’t understand why Ned had to keep the secret for so many years. 

The end of the Northern plot - BYE NO ONE WILL MISS YOU

The Starks can choke. They are cancelled. 

Yeah no. Bye. Fuck S.ansa or Sandra, who the fuck this OOC shitty ass character is. Fuck every single one of them. Wow, emotional manipulation at its finest. I just love how they basically called this episode the last of the Starks because they just character assassinated all of them. Edit: LMAO you know what this is? The shitty family that pulls over one member and tries to break him up with his wife, for the sole reason they don't like her. Because fuck their brother's happiness. Because they are fucking selfish people.  

Jaime x Tyrion x my headache

Let’s add to the list of cancelled people Jaime and Tyrion just for that fucking chat.

“I will pay you double” ex machina, and that’s how the Bronn issue is solved. Just as Friki said, btw. 

Arya x The Hound

So I guess Arya just fucking lies through her teeth now smh, since she was guilt trippig JON JUST MOMENTS AGO and she just up and leaves BECAUSE FUCK FAMILY I GUESS 

Tyrion is suddenly afraid of Dany so I guess we are supposed to excuse Sandra’s petty shady jealous ass 

Sandra is fucking jealous and insane. Littlefinger will be proud. Her face though. This fucking bitch doesn’t like that he is a Targaryen LMFAO she is scheming so hard bahahahahah

She is fucking cancelled. They murdered her character the moment they took her out of the Vale. FIGHT ME ON THIS I FUCKING DARE YOU.

Jon x Tormund x Ghost - say your goodbyes

Hey hey hey so that line where Jon belongs in the North? The real North, which for Tormund is North of the Wall since he calls Winterfell the South? Guess where those waterfalls from 8x01 are?

Jon is the worst dog owner KILL ME.

Fucking Sam Tarly

Jon was like yeah no don’t name your kid after me. Interesting how he could tell from a hug that Gilly was pregnant. Hope Dany starts showing soon *wink wink boatie is still coming*

The IT or Southern plot

Tyrion x Varys

I cannot wait for Varys to die. Like, he is spewing inaccurate information and then, he is suddenly against Dany and suddenly only Jon is a war hero. Just because he has a dick. Fuck D&D and their sexist asses Also VArys keeps talking about the realm LMAO YOU KNOW WHAT I SEE? I see kings dying all around you, and the only constant it’s you. Who is the problem, I wonder? 

Euron ex machina

Makes no fucking sense. But I guess nobody cares anymore.

Yeah I screamed when Rhaegal died. And I screamed again with Dany.

I guess Dany couldn’t just fly behind Euron’s ship and roast them all for plot reasons. 

Dragonstone mess

Fuck you, Varys. And fuck you, Tyrion. Not you, Greyworm, ILY *hugs tightly*

BONUS: FUCK YOU JAIME FUUUUUCK YOU FOR LEAVING BRIENNE LIKE THAT. BYE BITCH GOOD RIDDANCE.

King’s Landing mess & the shitty ass parley that even Captain Sparrow could have organised better

Ew how much time has it passed since Cersei is already claiming to be preggers? 

“So much for the breaker of chains” - is again, a sign they are trying to strip Dany of everything she has and is. 

Tyrion and Qyburn - ew, but also Qyburn has a point, why would Cersei surrender? Oh and I think the point to save Rhaegal from the NK only for him to die at the hands of Euron is to further handicap Dany and make the Cersei threat real, and have a reason to keep Drogon away from KL - HAVE YOU ALL SEEN THE SCORPIONS EVERYWHERE?

Ugh Tyrion stop trying to get Cersei to love you LMFAO she doesn’t. But I know, it is hard to break from toxic relationships and abusers. Tyrion told Cersei “you are not a monster” and she literally went “HOLD MY BEER”.

Missandei’s death made me sick to my stomach and traumatised me for life. We should all collectively agree to NEVER give D&D our attention again and never let them write anything again. 

Missandei hatefully spewing DRACARYS as her last words was so strong it made me start crying because holy shit this was a peaceful person, and for her to show this much hate and rage was so gutting…  fuck me. I am crying again. I think she also meant, besides from the obvious, “there is no reasoning with these people, so why bother. Might as well blow it the fuck up.”

And Grey’s reaction wow - again, I was about to puke, despite the scene not being the most gorey on GoT, but it was so intrinsically and viscerally wrong my mind could not deal. 

In conclusion

Poor Dany, she has lost everything. EVERYTHING. She is literally at her lowest. After the discussion with Jon, she slipped back the Queen mask - like you can pinpoint the moment she does so! And she keeps it on in front of everyone else but her dragons.

I am expecting a very very cold (but very fragile inside) Dany in 8x05. I am expecting her to push Jon away. Oh and at the ending of 8x04 she totally just gets up on Drogon and goes back to Dragonstone. No way she does anything yet so soon.

I haven’t watched any of the BTS and Making of videos, nor have I watched the 8x05 promo. Will do soon.

Stay strong, jonerys is still going strong. I am here until the very end and I still think this will end with jonerys together. Will it be good writing? Nope. But it will end well. As I keep saying. We’re missing the “sweet” in this fucking “bittersweet” shit show. Stop saying it ends badly because of 8x03.

If you need me, you know where to find me. Image of me in the fandom. Except I charge nothing.

Oh and PS: FUCK D&D.

[khaleesirin]

Can your expand on your argument that Dany represents borderlands identity? I read Anzaldua before and your claim is bordering controversial.

The thing is, it only sounds controversial if we only consider Daenerys Targaryen a white person and saddle her own identity formation with white history and guilt, even when the idea of being white doesn’t make sense within the context of her own story line. Whiteness (and all it entails) doesn’t mean anything to Dany at all because she doesn’t have the consciousness of a white person; she never articulated her identity on the position of whiteness. While there may be something to be said with George RR Martin and the way he parallels ASOIAF with real life history, it doesn’t mean we can reduce Dany’s story with white saviorism or white feminism (can we move past this talking point already?) when he spends so much time constructing the world she revolves in, painstakingly writing her own experiences.

I brought up Anzaldua’s Borderlands because it rests on the assumption that there is no such thing as an identity that comes naturally; rather, our identities are articulated based on our positionality (i.e. subjective history, the culture we actually interact with). These subjective factors construct the sense of who we are. Specific to her own dilemma, if you are from a family of mixed-race,  or if you live in a place you call “home” on a land that was forcibly taken from its native inhabitants, or if you are positioned in these different places (i.e. being at once Mexican, Indian, and White) because you are a product of these intersections of culture and history, how do you deal with the contradictions attached to it? Which culture are you going to follow? Which gender norm are you going to assume? Which part of who you are do you have to oppress to privilege one part of your culture, the part of history that was thrust upon you? Where do you belong?

Like Anzaldua, the main problem of Dany’s identity crisis is the duality of who she is. While I don’t think Dany is at that point where she actively recreates her sense of self outside her dual image to finally have her borderlands consciousness (although her long title may be that consciousness), her story does parallel Anzaldua’s own problem with the question “where ‘the home’ is?” exactly because she had to always let go a part of her to belong somewhere. That by constantly having to choose which side of her she should privilege, she ends up feeling not belonging anywhere.

Dany suffers from socio-cultural ambiguity.  She was told over and over by Viserys that Westeros is “our land” but as she admitted to herself, the places he spoke of, “they were just words to her” (AGOT, Dany I). Westeros is an imaginary place for her: a dream, a place that will never be, and a place she can always be.

But being Daenerys Targaryen means she had to silent the other her, the one who constantly seeks for comfort, the one who dreams for a more passive, comfortable, peaceful life of a woman. Dany, who never really wanted to have the responsibility of a queen.

If I were not the blood of the dragon, she thought wistfully, this could be my home. She was khaleesi, she had a strong man and a swift horse, handmaids to serve her, warriors to keep her safe, an honored place in the dosh khaleen awaiting her when she grew old … and in her womb grew a son who would one day bestride the world. That should be enough for any woman … but not for the dragon. With Viserys gone, Daenerys was the last, the very last. She was the seed of kings and conquerors, and so too the child inside her. She must not forget.  (AGOT, Dany VI)

and this:

“If they were so unseaworthy, they could not have crossed the sea from Qarth,” Ser Barristan pointed out, “but Your Grace was wise to insist upon inspection. I will take Admiral Groleo to the galleys at first light with his captains and two score of his sailors. We can crawl over every inch of those ships.

“It was good counsel. “Yes, make it so.” Westeros. Home. But if she left, what would happen to her city? Meereen was never your city, her brother’s voice seemed to whisper. Your cities are across the sea. Your Seven Kingdoms, where your enemies await you. You were born to serve them blood and fire.

….

How beautiful, the queen tried to tell herself, but inside her was some foolish little girl who could not help but look about for Daario. If he loved you, he would come and carry you off at swordpoint, as Rhaegar carried off his northern girl, the girl in her insisted, but the queen knew that was folly.

….

Memories walked with her. Clouds seen from above. Horses small as ants thundering through the grass. A silver moon, almost close enough to touch. Rivers running bright and blue below, glimmering in the sun. Will I ever see such sights again? On Drogon’s back she felt whole. Up in the sky the woes of this world could not touch her. How could she abandon that?

It was time, though. A girl might spend her life at play, but she was a woman grown, a queen, a wife, a mother to thousands. Her children had need of her. Drogon had bent before the whip, and so must she. She had to don her crown again and return to her ebon bench and the arms of her noble husband.

(Dany, ADWD)

The schism between Dany and Daenerys Targaryen, between what she really feels and what she ought to feel, between what she wants and what she must do, between where she really is and where she should be. While Daenerys Targaryen must always orient herself to Westeros, while the Queen must always attend to her people, Dany is simply lost. At one point she thought Vaes Dothrak would be her home, at another she thought Meereen is her city. In both cases in didn’t turn out to be where she can be; it both cases she just doesn’t fit in.

In terms of gender role, what is she really internalizing? It’s interesting that what she truly wants, as Dany the young girl, from the bottom of her heart, and this is something she still longs for even in ADWD when she fully committed herself to the role of a Queen, is to simply have a life with a husband she loves, tending after her children, and be a–excuse my language–home mom; she wants to be a girl from those fairytales who gets to be surrounded by things of beauty, to be saved by the thing of beauty. It awfully sounds like internalized sexism don’t you think? But is it? If you are in her position, when all your life the people around you have been purposely, consistently, persistently, telling you that you are a dragon, that you should act like a dragon, you’re the last scion of House Targaryen, you must take back what once was us, you must be the perpetual Regal Queen (which if we take a step back, are all masculine roles), she seems to be also, and this is more pronounced later on, internalizing masculinity.

For me, in some level, this is really what white feminism isn’t all about. This particular situation echoes what has been brought up over and over and over by many scholars of feminism and intersectionality– what we may define as empowering, what we may describe as finally exercising women’s own-agency, really depends on their situation. It depends on the context. No kind of feminism (which is a revolutionary articulation) happens out of vacuum, it’s always a reaction to something. What that something is will change how we will react to it. While white feminism is tone-deaf when it comes to the particular situation of a person, and very hegemonic with what lifestyle we should be having, here is Dany’s storyline turning gender expectation upside-down. 

So a food for thought here: when she got pushed back in Meereen by silencing a part of her, by making her voice a little bit lower, compromising on everything she really wanted to destroy,  is it really empowering for Dany to choose fire and blood, to believe that she should have completely chosen House Targaryen all along, to be the queen as was expected from her? Or is this chaining her further, and at the end of ADWD when she finally thought to herself she really is a dragon, that’s also her succumbing to a form of defeat, that she can’t escape her role?  That no one will really save her? As someone who constantly chooses to save other people, a big reason for that is her desire to be saved as well.  

So thus for her, the Dany, without the roaring sound of her last name, based on her actual experiences, the fairytale with those traditional sexist roles may be something that will finally bring back what she had lost: herself. And maybe, that is what’s truly empowering for her.