#anyway. dany/tyrion endgame.

[kingsmoot]

[norakbubbles]

I just finished the final episode of Game of Thrones about two hours ago and....*sighs*

I have many feelings and I'm going to list them:

1. Braime and Theonsa could have been endgame couples if the writers weren't COWARDS-

2. "Bran the Broken" makes me giggle bc they literally couldn't find any other nickname for him

3. I still low-key think Gendry should have been king in the end, given he technically was supposed to have the iron throne after Robert died in the first place

3. Yaayyy Jon, Tormund and Ghost are together again (if s8 ended with me not being able to see Tormund for one last time I would've thrown hands)

4. Literally poor tyrion being made another hand of someone he barely knows when he doesn't want to

5. Bronn wanting to prioritize rebuilding brothels over ships makes me laugh

6. Robin Arryn's glow-up shocked me bc he actually doesn't look like an iPad kid anymore 👏👏

7. Sandor being one of the casualties in the final fight saddened me more than Jaime I'm sorry but it did

8. Ngl I forgot who Edmure Tully was for a hot minute when he showed up

9. Dany's death did not make me upset but Drogon's reaction to her death did idk why

10. Did anyone else go "Now what?" during the last few minutes? Like Sansa being crowned queen of the North and Jon and Tormund going off with the wildlings and Ghost? Like what are they gonna do now? There really aren't any more threats. If anyone does know of any still existing threats by the end of the series let me know

Anyway, I'm pretty sure my mom is tired of hearing me yap about Braime all the time and my sis and I both agree that Theon should have been there with Sansa as she was crowned. I loved the series, and will most likely be moving on to HotD next bc I've heard it's good. Yes season 8 could have been better but in the end, we just have to accept that that's how the series ended and there's nothing we can do about it....

that's what fanfiction is for... 😗

[jonsnowunemploymentera]

There was this thread on r/asoiaf the other day that was complaining about how ASOIAF stans seem to lose all creativity when it comes to theorizing about Dany’s endgame. The OP argued that people are so sure that Dany’s story can only end in death even though nothing is set in stone and the story would still be very good if she lived to the end.

Predictably, the comments in the thread proceeded to double down on why Dany is 100% “doomed” and marked for death, which is very funny because not only did they completely miss OP’s point, but they started citing statistics that I have personally never heard of. How can anyone except George R.R Martin know what is 100% Dany’s endgame? Are there some mathematic equations I need to be aware of? Can someone share with the class please…

See, I agree with that OP big time. It’s a bit annoying to go through fandom spaces and have to see the same old posts about how Dany is an instrument of death and so she needs to be put out at the end of the story. Others will try to argue that she will die a hero as a means of being a bit more charitable. It seems that everywhere I go, Dany’s endgame always ends in death. There really is an obvious lack of creativity when it comes to speculating about her endgame.

I have an issue with using death to define Dany’s story because she is so much more than that. People get so caught up in the “bride of fire” and “daughter of death” aspects that they forget about what Dany actually does. She goes around liberating people! Yes she brings death…to those who harm others and deserve it. She is not bringing death wholesale to innocent people but she is bringing death and destruction to corrupt institutions. That’s the whole point of her character. She is a liberator. She is a savior! She is a dragon and the dragon cleanses. To the slaves she is the Breaker of Chains. To those who have glimpsed of the coming Long Night, she is the Prince(ss) That Was Promised. To all, she represents hope for the future. Hope for life and liberation from death.

Dany gained so much power throughout her arc so far and she could have taken a ship straight to Westeros, but she used her new found abilities to free people from slavery; she chose to liberate them from death. Really, that’s how I view Dany’s campaign against slavery. Slaves aren’t treated as people; their humanity is discarded, they have no will, no future, no hope. It’s almost like a death of the person though they may not physically be dead. Then in comes Daenerys Targaryen, a young girl with nothing but her dragons and her compassion, who says to them “you may not matter to them but you matter to me and I will save you”. Where the slaves didn’t have free will before, Dany gives it to them. I’m remembering the unsullied who didn’t even have names but Dany gave them the ability to pick and choose their own; which seems like such a small act but means so much more because names are important in humanizing people. She represents new beginnings.

Dany’s crusade across Slaver’s Bay is a big deal. She didn’t have to do it but she did it anyway. There was no personal gain for her but she did it because she cares so deeply about people. And then she gets to Meereen and decides to stay there because her “children” need her. She cannot and will not abandon strangers to a fate of death. And the people know that.

I’m just thinking of this quote:

“I am no lady,” the widow replied, “just Vogarro’s whore. You want to be gone from here before the tigers come. Should you reach your queen, give her a message from the slaves of Old Volantis.” She touched the faded scar upon her wrinkled cheek, where her tears had been cut away. “Tell her we are waiting. Tell her to come soon.”

- Tyrion VII, ADWD

And this one too:

“I told you, I know our little queen […] this Mother of Dragons, this Breaker of Chains, is above all a rescuer. The girl who drowned the slaver cities in blood rather than leave strangers to their chains can scarcely abandon her own brother’s son in his hour of peril.”

- Tyrion VI, ADWD

These people have never even met Dany but to them, she is hope and freedom and life! She is salvation, and that’s the point. She has spent much of her arc fighting slavery which is in preparation for her ultimate destiny as a savior to defeat the Others. Because they not only bring death to the land but they also threaten to enslave humanity through death. However, they cannot triumph over the Breaker of Chains; the great savior that is Daenerys Targaryen! That’s what her story has been building up to. And it’s not that Dany is saving people and peacing out (e.g., dying in a sacrifice). The point is that she herself persevered. And because she persevered, her people will too. It’s that her constant survival ensures that of others.

Dany grew up penniless, homeless, hungry, and even started out as a 13 year old slave to Khal Drogo. She could have given up but she didn’t because through everything, she is resilient. She is determination and perseverance in the face of death. When she walked into that funeral pyre she could have died, but she lived and emerged as the Mother of Dragons - these dragons that have been instrumental in freeing slaves and will ultimately be important in the Other’s defeat. She “died” in that pyre and was “reborn”, and this rebirth is moving her closer to ensuring that the rest of her people overcome death as well.

That’s why it’s more thematically meaningful for Dany to survive the Long Night, in my opinion. She, more than anyone, represents what it means to constantly fight against the odds. She represents what it means to go through all the worst life can throw at you and then not only come out on top, but turn around and use her own survival to ensure that of others’. She has lived through so many trials and persevered; she is the very embodiment of what it means to survive. Because her survival means that where death could destroy, it didn’t. Instead, life prevailed.

If she survives the Long Night, she remains a constant symbol - a beacon if you will - of what’s to come which is better days. Those who are suffering can look to her and see how she went through hell and lived. This would go a long way in boosting morale especially in the aftermath of the Long Night. Because think about it, the people fought against the Others and overcame death, but now they have to survive what comes next. I think Dany is needed because she has already gone through this cycle and will not only be an important figurehead during the War for the Dawn, but she will also be important as the people try to find a will to live beyond death (winter and the Others).

The last book is called A Dream of Spring so I assume this means that it will still be winter - though the Long Night may be over. People will still be hungry, they will be homeless, and they will be tired. They will not know what comes next only that they have to move forward and survive through this new hardship. And you know who has personally experienced these things and knows what it’s like? Daenerys Targaryen! She has survived through it all. So imagine just how powerful it will be for those who survive the Long Night to look at young Daenerys and go, “you know what, I think we’ll get through this one too”. And it will be even more poignant for Dany to lead them to that rest and restoration. Because it’s not just the people who need rest after fighting for so long, Dany does too:

“It is such a long way,” she complained. “I was tired, Jorah. I was weary of war. I wanted to rest, to laugh, to plant trees and see them grow. I am only a young girl.”

- Dany X, ADWD

People take the “dragons plant no trees” part that comes after to assume that Dany will remain stagnant for the next two books and it really is a pity. Someone pointed out a while ago (and I cannot for the life of me remember who this was) that Dany tends to pivot at the end of each book. As she continues to grow and develop as a character, her plans and priorities change. So it’s a bit sad how people assume that she will constantly be in a state of warfare. Because at the moment, Dany’s didn’t isn’t over yet.

Her campaign in Essos must continue and she still has the Others to fight in Westeros. So for now, she cannot truly settle down to plant trees. But she has been learning! She tried to do that throughout ADWD and I don’t see why that learning arc will be discarded at the end of the story. Especially when we consider that few others have actually been learning to lead. The only other character who has is Jon Snow but funny enough, many in this fandom think that he too is doomed to die. I’m not sure why George R.R Martin would kill the two up-and-coming leaders in the story who best answer “what was Aragorn’s tax policy?”

Ultimately, when all is said and done and there are no more wars to fight, I think Dany will finally find her peace and will learn that dragons can plant trees and watch them grow. As all the other heroes in the story, she will probably come out of the Long Night battered and bruised, but everything will be okay because she will still be alive; just like that Bran scene at the end of ACOK, which to me is the very definition of bittersweet. A better ending for her in my opinion isn’t dying in the cold of winter, but rather living and healing and finding a way to build a house with a red door, even though she cannot return to the one she knew as a child. Not only that, she can also provide this house with a red door” for the homeless, beaten, and bruised who survive the Long Night. It’s certainly possible that Martin could write Dany’s death in a way that is poignant and beautiful, but my personal preference is that she lives because of what her survival means for the larger themes in the story.

This whole post has been so jumbled and I’ve rambled a bit but I hope it made sense in the end lol. But anyway….the point is, I’m 1000% Team Dany Must Live!

[esther-dot]

I’ve just finished watching Game of Thrones for the first time but Daenerys did always act like a spoiled brat when it comes to Cersei, not sure why people are mad to see it pointed out. It’s literally how it was written. She acted like Cersei stole a toy from her (a toy that never belonged to Daenerys in the first place, her ancestors are foreign conquerors, her father has been overthrown, she’s only a claimant). Daenerys hated Cersei long before Missandei and Rhaegal’s death and Cersei only felt contempt for her, the kind you reserved for a sick animal. Daenerys was outclassed in the Dragonpit meeting, the only one acting like a queen was Cersei. No one spoke for Cersei, she had all the power in that meeting. Daenerys should have been grateful that Cersei bothered to pay any attention to her.

She kept being surprised at being outsmarted time after time and even her final “snap” was Cersei-related because she did it AGAIN and Daenerys knew that Cersei’s popularity rate skyrocketed the moment she rang the bells and it was a lose-lose situation for her now. The people of KL choose Cersei instead of Daenerys. There’s no reason for her stans to be angry. Anyone can be outwitted by a legend.

LOL! She was undone by the best! I really enjoyed show Cersei. She and Joffrey were wonderful villains! But, I intensely disliked how they tried to force me to care about Dany's feelings about Cersei. I resented it a lot, actually. Sansa and Arya watched their father die because of a Lannister, Sansa was held prisoner (by Cersei) and abused (at Joffrey’s command) and forced to marry a Lannister (Tywin’s idea, Tyrion following through). Robb, his wife, and Cat were betrayed and murdered because of the Lannisters. Dany's desire for a throne (and even her anger about Jaime's little naughtiness in killing her dad who she knew was a baddie), simply doesn't weigh as much as me watching all of these characters I love die. It made Dany's feelings so small in comparison.

But yeah, I agree that Cersei was impressive in the Dragonpit meeting. When Dany does that outrageous "bring you pets to work day" entrance, and Cersei just refused to be intimidated. And then immediately lies to them. She made me laugh so much, y'all don't even know.

I also thought it was so dumb that they kinda wanted to pin Dany burning KL on Cersei and killed Missandei to trigger Dany. Dany had a) been talking about burning cities for seasons, b) already talked about attacking KL with dragons, c) just concluded that “Jon is the rightful heir, if the people know, they’ll choose him,” so they didn't need to do that at all. She already knew that she would have to terrify people into submission if she wanted to rule!

Anyway, yay for watching GoT! or, I'm sorry? 😬 How did you like it? What did you think of the endgames other than Dany's? Did it all seem pretty straightforward watching the seasons back to back? What all did you see coming? Which were your favorite scenes/characters?

[agentrouka-blog]

My favourite thing when anons want to stir trouble is that like, inevitably they have consistent misspelling habits which mean you know exactly who it is sending repeat asks. So unself-aware.

Anyway, I do think there is a balanced path between the text and what the author says. GRRM's comments about Sansa are about as light as they could come. I love when people want to ungenerously frame the debate as if she's tantamount to Tyrian or Daenerys, come on. Girl took a steak knife to see a drunken knight in the godswood. The most harm she's going to inflict is driving Jon crazy with the incest. I'm trying to be lighthearted here.

Anyway, Rouka, what's your opinion on author vs. text? How much is too much, relying on the former? On the other hand, with the Daenerys is a tragic hero fandom, there's a lot of outright twisting of the text. Does relying on the author's comments provide some clarity or just make the conversation harder, since one would want to reason based on the text? Thank you for your time and your graceful handling of us terrible anons 🥰

(The posts referenced: one and two)

(I'm chronically bad at recognizing these individuall spelling patterns. Unless they make it obvious, every anon is a newborn dawn to me.)

Hello and thank you!

For me, the actual text of the books should always be central when it comes to actually analyzing the books. (You know. Obviously.) Interviews can be nice, but should be absolutely optional to any of it. If you NEED an interview to support your position, you're not analyzing the text.

Perhaps I am biased because I can't be bothered to follow GRRM interviews, let alone dig up ancient ones - unless I am feeling especially motivated.

But also, most of the time we don't have a lot of good context for GRRM's quotes. How exactly a question was phrased, what direction the conversation went before it, how distracted or rushed was GRRM when answering, how likely is it he actually managed to get across exactly what he meant, and how easily can it get twisted around? Who edited and published it? Worse, did it go through a translation process?

Take the "Aragorn's Tax Policy" quote that still has people frothing at the mouth. People hear him mention Tolkien and lose all sense of nuance. No, he's not describing how his endgame king will be elected on his tax plan. He's giving context for parts of ADWD. That's it. Still people wail about what an evil hypocrite GRRM supposedly is because Bran was crowned king in the show without a single published treatise on his taxation policy.

Same with some commentary on the show, specifically Dany with Drogo. I've had people in my Inbox arguing for Rhaegar/Lyanna because GRRM is obviously okay with adult men preying on teenaged girls based on that interview. Which... you know, actually read Dany's chapters? Please?

The books, on the other hand, were not blathered out in a hurry. They are not a commentary on a text, they are the text. A labor of many hours of writing, editing, rewriting and more editing. They are complete and fully intentional in their form. They are the message.

So, while I admire how someone who knows what they are doing is able to create a brilliant body of supporting evidence on book content by compiling quotes in a meaningful way, often with good sources and context - looking at you here, @kellyvela - these lovely metas should never be considered necessary to understanding the text, and they should certainly neither replace nor supercede it. They augment the experience of it.

Knowing GRRM approved on the Meereenese Blot essays is nice.

But you don't need to know them, nor what GRRM thinks of them, in order to arrive at the same conclusion.

Knowing GRRM agrees with the statement that "Brienne is Sansa with a sword" is nice.

But you need never have heard of that quote in order to understand the similarities between these two idealistic, dutiful female characters.

He called Tyrion a villain, which is nice.

But you can arrive at that same conclusion by reading the books.

On the other hand, you can take one quote about the Key Five Characters from a decades-old outline that deviates from established plot in multiple significant instances, and then try and justify dismissing the importance of other characters. You just need to ignore the published text in order to do it!

So I just can't take that anon seriously when they gesture wildly at some quote about Sansa while ignoring the way it's entirely contradicted by the actual body of the text.

And if some members of the fandom have a habit of very selectively reading the text then this makes their analysis suspect, so what's really the point of arguing with someone who isn't really interested in analysis in the first place?

If "she burned a slave alive" or "she is ordering her servant to please her sexually" or "she condons torture even while she knows its useless" or "she ordered the murder of children" isn't going to convince them, an interview snippet isn't going to do it, either.

[diamondperfumes]

Suffering is seen as a moral virtue worthy of an endgame leading to redemption, survival, and thriving for almost every character except Cersei, Daenerys, and Tyrion.

I have seen the argument that "they suffer, and struggle, and their romantic ideals shatter when they face the reality of the world" being applied to Jaime, Theon, Sandor, all of the Starklings (Jon Snow included), some of the Martells (if people are not busy theorizing that they'll be "punished" for wanting the same vengeance that the Starks seek for their family), and the Tullys, Greyjoys, Baratheons, and Lannisters in general. Even the likes of Septon Meribald.

Why is suffering not a virtue for Cersei, Dany, and Tyrion though? Why are they automatically pockmarked with the "irredeemable beyond a point of return?" In fact, the same people who claim that ASOIAF asks the reader to believe in second chances, forgiveness, and that the characters are morally gray, will use all kinds of progressive reasons for why Cersei, Dany, and Tyrion are problematic, unforgivable, and worthy of dying.

Self-hatred, trauma, and romantic idealism being deconstructed are common themes in most character's arcs, and thus most of these characters who endure such things are seen as worthy of surviving and living because they invoke empathy in the reader. "Why should XYZ die after reclaiming their desire to live." "Why should XYZ die when their whole life they have hated themselves for not living up to the ideals they were taught." Much of this applies directly to Dany and Tyrion especially, and yet it's not enough, because there'll always be some liberal, progressive, or feminist reason why they deserve to die anyway.

Sometimes, when this is pointed out, people will switch from "a character suffering and struggling their whole lives and dying is meaningless" to "even if a character is good and heroic, and they suffered, their death isn't meaningless because they died for a good cause." People use the latter argument for Dany and Tyrion especially. The same people who'd express anger and accuse you of lacking empathy and understanding of the core themes of ASOIAF if you said XYZ should die to redeem themselves, turn around and argue tooth and nail that Dany and Tyrion dying is just right because their sacrifice will save the world and their legacy will render their deaths meaningful.

I don't have a grand conclusion to this. I'm simply ruminating on a pattern I've observed. Which characters are deemed worthy of survival and life and which ones are deemed unworthy of it? Why is redemption limitless and self-replicating, something that you can pick up on when a new day comes even if you failed the day before, for most of the fandom favorites, the so called teenage girl-coded male characters especially, but it is limiting, strict, and bound by social justice norms for how "good" characters "should" act, and how "bad" characters "should" be punished, for Dany, Tyrion, and Cersei?

[fedonciadale]

Hi, so I love Jonsa but my friend convinced me that they were nothing more then a crack ship since Jon and Ary@ will be end game. Her reasons being that Jon and Ary@ have the most pov and constantly think about each other and they were the original pairing. Also since Ary@ has no other love interest except Jon. Although I would love to have Jonsa as canon, I've made my peace with them being crack-wasted potential if you as me. What are your thoughts on her argument?

Hi there!

Allow me to answer in bullet points:

First of all, your friend needs to look up the definition of crackship. Eomer and Sansa would be a crackship. Jonsa is (as things stand now) a non-canon ship.

People should stop calling the leaked proposal GRRM sent to his publisher his "original outline". This is a not a sheet of paper where GRRM made notes about his outline. This is a highly intentional source. GRRM wrote it to his publisher TO SELL HIS BOOKS. There are so many things in that few pages that definitely have been cancelled and will never happen and yet people insist that the pairing that is named in these pages will be the endgame couple. All the so-called outline proves imho opinion is that GRRM thought about a Snow-Stark romance and that he thought about Dany as an antagonist - and these might still come to pass. But I must admit that I'd rather argue with the books we have that are canon and not some proposal GRRM sent ages ago to a publisher. On this I would advice to have a look at @kellyvela's detailed posts on the outline.

If you look at the people with the most PoV chapters Tyrion and Jon would be endgame. If you look at the character who is the most connected, Sansa wins. It all depends on how you twist information like that. When it comes to screentime Aragorn should never have wed Arwen but Eowyn or Galadriel. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Jon's thoughts on Ary@ mirror Ned's on Lyanna. There can be no doubt that Jon and Ary@ have a deep bond but it is it romantic? Ned doesn't think about Cat very often but when he does it is very important. It actually bugs me quite a lot that people think that Jon and Ary@'s thoughts must be read as romantic. Not every meaningful relationship we have must be romantic. Sry, not sry. "But Ary@ is his favourite sister" is such a weak argument against Jonsa. Yes, she is and I hope Jon and her will still be close. I'm not "jealous" of their bond.

As for Ary@ having no other love interest. Well, Gendry@ shippers would beg to differ. And anyway. This is not an argument. It's not as if GRRM writes his books in the intention to have everyone safely paired away at the end. It never ceases to amaze me that Ary@ fans want Ary@ to be beautiful and in a romance so hard. I don't think this is where her arc is going. She says so herself: "That's Sansa."

O.k. Now that we have shown that none of these arguments is actually an argument that is based on the text but on outside assumptions like "loving feelings must be romantic" or "the most important characters are the ones that have the most screentime and must end up with each other" we can look at the actual evidence that is the books and the text GRRM wrote.

Where should I start? lol. There are so many hints, it is ridiculous. Jon and Sansa are carefully crafted as two puzzle pieces who will just fit perfectly once they meet. They have parallels in fairy tales, tropes, mythology, literature (including fantasy classics like LotR), and in several in-universe couples legendary and contemporary (and every time they are the better version).

Allow me to finish with this which sort of catches how the average ASOAIF fan approaches Jonsa:

Thanks for the ask!

[jackoshadows]

Do you know what the first Jon/Arya theory post was? Is there a link to it? Did not know who else to ask, love your blog!

Sorry to disappoint, but no.

Jon/Arya theory posts have been around since forever on sites like Westeros.org. There's always been resistance to it because a) Incest ship b) Arya is so young c) the tendency to not see Arya as having a romantic arc compared to Sansa d) Arya being reduced to psychopathic, damaged killer who will die and end up in Nymeria blah blah... etc.

But Jon/Arya also gained traction after ADwD considering the important role Arya plays in Jon’s storyline.

For example this was a 2014 Jon x Arya discussion thread before OG outline got leaked...

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/105392-jon-and-arya/

I was around on Westeros.org, when the OG outline was leaked and I remembered it was a time of great catharsis for especially two groups of readers/theorists - those who predicted Jonrya, and those who maintained that Sansa was secondary to characters like Jon, Dany, Tyrion and Arya.

The OG outline seemed to confirm those two speculations. Even if GRRM has now changed his story, Jonrya fans were not reading it wrong when George wrote book one with Jon x Arya in mind.

And then there was the con at which a Jonrya shipper more or less badgered GRRM about it 😂 and his answers made some shippers despondent. I was in the Jonrya group that the shipper privately messaged later on - she was indeed sad, but also she was going to continue shipping them and be hopeful.

So anyways, here are some metas/theories on Jonrya:

By IceTurtle:

Jon & Arya - hints and overall significance of their relationship: Part I

Jon & Arya - hints and overall significance of their relationship: Part II

Jon & Arya - hints and overall significance of their relationship: Part III

Ashotofjac's meta about Jon and Arya

And even though there is a lot of resistance still to Jonarya on Westeros.org, I will always enjoy the casual readers there thrashing the Jonsa shippers anytime they spout Jonsa nonsense. If you want some entertainment, check out this thread,

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/157502-arya-jon-and-arya-still-endgame/#comments

where a poster wants to discuss Jon/Arya, there is some debate about Jonrya vs Gendrya and as usual the thread soon gets invaded by tumblr Jonsa shippers like Elegant Woes and Rose of Red lake. Hilariously Rose of the Red Lake pretends to be just a casual reader who thinks that Jonsa maybe possible. Keep in mind that I think it was Rose of Red Lake who made up the entire nauseating Political Jon theory!

Response:

Rose of Red Lake:

Response:

And it goes on and on. I was pretty much Michael Jackson eating popcorn.gif reading that thread lol. Seriously, read the whole thread, especially the Sweetsunray Vs Rose of the Red Lake comments on pages 5,6 and 7.

Rose of Red Lake tries to rewrite Jon Snow's story as revolving around Sansa and gets absolutely thrashed by Sweetsunray

These Jonsa/Sansa stans pretending to be Jon Snow fans and rewriting his story got shown the door by casual book readers. And that's why they hang around here in their tumblr echo chamber. On tumblr, they can keep manipulating the text and writing total nonsense and get away with it.

Also this was in the TWoW discussion thread...

Ghost Jon is going to the Vale you guys! Forget the trauma that comes with death and resurrection and him being a possible wight and the North and Winterfell and mutiny at the wall and all that. Jon’s story is in the vale....

Oh and also Shadrich is Howland Reed...

[the-king-andthe-lionheart]

Hey. I saw your reblog of a cool post talking about how Sansa won’t be winning the North by being “polite and singing songs and asking nicely“ and how violence and brutality are in the North, after all Robb didn’t get the Umbers approval by asking politely but by having Grey Wind eat Umber’s fingers. And i Love how in the tags you said the North would never choose Sansa. If it came down to it they would choose Arya. They most certainly would. No one ever complained that Robb wouldn’t exchange Jaime for Sansa. But they are furious to hear that ”Arya” (we know it’s Jeyne) has been wed to the demonic Ramsay Snow. The only reason Sansa was “chosen” (she wasn‘t) in the fake season of the show was because fucking Dumb&Dumber have a massive favoritism for her and Sophie Turner. Gosh it was so disgusting to see that filthy coronation (that looked just like Cersei signifying Sansa’s tranformation into Cersei 2.0) and fake Jon being forced to say she’s the best for the North. And what is all that dumb bullshit about how Northern Independence is the “best thing and necessary for the North”. Anyway in the books they definitely would not choose Sansa and certainly not if she were like her show version (who I am shamed to have ever liked. Now I loathe her with every part of me).

@whitedragonwolf4961

Sorry for the wait for my reply. :)

D&D had massive favoritism when it came to Sansa, or should I say, they had a very obvious bias towards the Lannister's, and Lannister adjacent characters. You can see it in how they whitewashed the whole family, even Cersei (D&D hardly ever whitewashed female characters, usually only male characters, as they would typically make female characters darker) and how heavily focused the show was on twincest and then making it so Jaime went back to her out of love (If Jaime does go back to the same place Cersei is IMO I don't think it will be about his love for her, but to stop her). Like just because Jaime and Cersei and Tywin were killed off, it doesn't mean they weren't D&D's favorites. Also let's not forget about the two Lannister adjacent characters: Sansa and Bronn. Two characters that were unfairly rewarded endgames that they didn't deserve. Sansa became Queen in the North through nepotism, did absolutely nothing during the war, except complain, didn't care that Rickon died, was going to execute Arya, and could have gotten Jon killed over telling his secret, and could have started a war between Dany and the North, yet she becomes queen? Then we have Bronn. Like sure he's helped Jaime and Tyrion out for a fee for several seasons, but he would have killed any one of them for the right price. He's a mercenary. Yet what does he get? A position on Bran's King's Council as Master of Coin, and is given Highgarden. He is now Lord of the richest and most fruitful kingdom in Westeros. Kind of seems a little convenient there. IMO Lannister favoritism.

I used to love Sansa on GOT as well. She was one of my favorite characters through seasons 1-4 (imagine my surprise when I realized how much D&D whitewashed her from the books, hence why I liked both her character and her arc in those seasons). I even quit the show for a couple of years after S5 because of what D&D did with Sansa's storyline. Like I was watching that episode with my mom and stepdad and I was a sobbing mess. I even used to believe in the whole Northern Independence BS and even believed Sansa should be Queen in the North (mainly because of how she suffered, which IMO I think that was the point. Instead of giving Sansa a proper leadership arc, they make her suffer horribly, so people think Sansa deserves a big reward for that suffering.) However, watching S7 really changed my perspective (mainly because she was legit trying to execute Arya) and I began looking at Sansa's actions in S6 and they just rubbed me the wrong way, like her behavior only made sense if she was trying to sabotage Jon, and actually hoped to come out of that battle as the only Stark left, looking like the hero (whether that was the intention or not, or if it was just bad writing we'll never know). Then I read the books after S7 and I realized just how much was different, especially the characters, and I further realized how many character arcs Sansa was given from other characters by D&D and how it made absolutely no sense to me that Sansa would be Queen in the North at the end of the books. But now I'm like you. S8 made me detest Sansa Stark. And I'm not the type of person to go around hating characters. My only other exception is Scott McCall from Teen Wolf.

Anyway, it's funny, I'm sure Stansa's look at me and think I've always been a Sansa hater (I'm not even a book!Sansa hater, I'm Sansa critical, as it's the Stans I detest) and that I never believed Sansa would become Queen and blah blah blah, but they are dead wrong. But I think this really points out how different the books and the show are and because of this, it's highly unlikely the endings will be the same in the books as the show, especially when it comes to characters like Sansa and Arya and Dany.

[janiedean]

I feel bad for all the nice J*nsa shippers who like their ship for whatever reasons (tropes, pretty art, aesthetic appeal, whatever) and know it's not canon but get associated with the misogynistic Dany hating crowd who act like Jon being attracted to Ygritte is J*nsa foreshadowing because red hair (I guess Jon should fuck Edmure Tully too? Omg give me Dark!Jon getting revenge on Catelyn by seducing her brother!) Tell me something. I'm new to the fandom but was J*nsa popular before the show? And I've heard something about the OG J*nsa shippers being alienated by the new shippers who insisted it had to be canon and acted like the series is called, "A song of J*nsa #danysux." I don't find that hard to believe because I know people who are now ashamed of calling themselves J*nsa shippers. Like, at this point, it's not only rival shippers who hate it. Even Gendrya/Braime/Jon stans/etc have started disliking that ship. You know your fandom is a problem when people who have nothing to do with Jnsa have a problem with it.

me: reads this ask

me: iwastheregandalf.gif which I can't find now but

okay anon buckle up because I am sadly well-equipped to answer this ask but before I do lemme tell you dark jon seducing edmure to take revenge on cat is LITERALLY THE BEST THING I'VE EVER HEARD but *clears throat* ALL RIGHT THEN.

disclaimer: as anon says I have no issue with like the shippers mentioned by anon in the beginning and ngl I agree, I have ABSOLUTELY ZERO FUCKING STAKES in the j*nsa vs j*nerys war and the only het jon ship I gaf about is jon/ygritte and we all know where that ended up I just... have been here since 2011/adwd was over and all the fic around was just for the books under secret lj communities and asoiaf qualified for yuletide and I have... seen... things.... and I actually have like uh had... beef... with some people in there and I know things bc ppl who hated those others told me stuff so anyway *sigh* buckle up anon I'mma tell you the story of jon shipwars through the years

in order, the old gods help me here, under the cut bc this is long as fuck

when I got into fandom also given what numbers were on ao3 one ship was popular and it was sansan. no like sansan was lit. the only asoiaf ship on ao3 with more than 200 fics. jb had twenty when i checked first. jc had like around 100-ish because of the show but sansan dwarfed anything. I posted the first jon/ygritte fic on the ao3 tag and the fourth throbb fic and like the others were all reposts from lj kinkmemes. nothing was popular before the show except for sansan when it comes to huge numbers bc grrm doesn't like fic and it was all hush hush until the show made it impossible to control and that ship was the one with a huge enough fanbase it actually had numbers, so like... j*nsa wasn't popular in the way nothing else was popular until it got screentime on the show

now, that stated, j*nsa had a... fair amount of fic for a rareship which was mostly book-based and from og shippers that were there from before the show and liked it for what it was but literally none of them thought it was gonna be canon, like it wasn't huge or anything but it had a small but dedicated fanbase who did their own thing and thought it was fun/liked the idea but that was it

that fandom had their own niche of hcs that they cultivated and shit except that like... at the end of S5/beginning of S6 there was a surge in shipping for... well obvious reasons bc it was obv sansa was getting to the wall and that would have been all nice and good but a) it was the time puritanical shipping was starting to take root and the 'shipping sansa with sandor or tyrion is hella problematic' rhetoric had started to circle coming from sans*ery shippers mostly but I'mma not open that fucking can of worms here, b) while the ending of S5 had more of a theon/sansa spike, the j*nsa stuff started getting big

now here we have to mention my villain origin story ie: j*nsa fandom had this one stan whose name I won't make because honestly it's been years and if she's still around I don't want her to remember I exist who was a bnf, wrote for... the website that created the whole larry/carol thing etc who was really fixed on this thing that j*nsa was actually canon and started writing extremely popular meta about it. now you're gonna ask how do you know, I know because this person once wrote a meta named 'why robb stark is a dick' and I told her that it was really fucking bad meta and she took it so badly she kept on trash talking me on her blog/her podcast (I was apparently the insane robb stark fangirl l m a o good lord) and like that was when some sane ppl who argued with her informed me in pvt that she was basically harping on the CANON thing when they'd have been okay with like... it being crackshipping and that she was basically cultivating a hoarde of followers who were harping on them/the ogs and basically ostracizing them;

I would like to add that this person - before her tumblr got 'accidentally deleted' and remade it therefore deleted most receipts for, er, her so-called meta which included stuff like ned and cat raised sansa as a sexual object and only wanted to sell her like cattle - had at some point started a round robin fic thing where... some of the characters mocked openly said stuff that some of the og fans had said specifically targeting them and people in that side basically went harassing anyone who didn't agree with that specific notion

now never mind that this person basically coined an entire term to describe ppl who liked white guys and excused all their wrongdoings out of my conversation re robb basically lying about everything I said as if I didn't have the receipts and tried to sell shirts with it and it didn't work and like then she got kicked out of her own website because she was telling her commenters disagreeing pretty shitty insults (considering I was called psychotic for disagreeing with her that time I don't doubt it) I think at some point she stepped back from fandom bc idk wtf she's up to these days and I don't want to, but basically at that point the dam was broken and there was a bunch of puritanical shippers harping on anyone who didn't agree with j*nsa is canon endgame stuff

this also includes an incident when those ppl were like... passing themselves as throbb shippers and ended up trying to tell t*hramsay shippers off the theon tag based on moral reasons and I ended up arguing with all of them (and they were all from that crowd) which in turn landed me in contact with other og j*nsa shippers who were like detached from that fandom bc those same people harassed them away as well ssooooo fun

anyway when S6 happened everyone was high on it and whatnot but I wasn't gonna begrudge them that I mean... you shipped it for years, canon is delivering you, good for you, but then j*nerys happened

god j*nerys happened

aaand basically...... I mean personally I was there like are y'all seriously arguing about the best incest jon ship out there but like basically the j*nsa endgame side was like AH JON IS PLAYING DANY SEE IF IT DOESN'T HAPPEN, the j*nerys obv got defensive af and both sides were sort of alternatively shitting on jon/ygritte anyway and depicting any other romantic rship jon could have as abusive™ and during S8 it just got worse and like I tried to stay out of it but basically from what I'm seeing now idk how the j*neryses are doing but on the j*nsa one it's ah jon's gonna play dany anyway and she's going to go insane like in the show so SHOW TRUTHING EVERY OTHER WAY and like again denying that sandor exists or that tyrion exists and like I barely touch my corner (sansan) but I ended up arguing with j*nsa/th*nsa people on twitter who were antis and is2g it was white-hair inducing and I know for sure the sansa/tyrion shippers were harassed to hell and back throughout so FUN

and even if the show didn't go there now since everyone there banked on the jnsa endgame thing and admitting you're wrong is like... not a thing, they still haven't let go of it and attach to that ship any shred of evidence which honestly is grasping at straws half of the time (like... the sansa/alysanne parallels like guys please no) and which is why every other ship is starting to get fed up, attaching canon proof of stuff from other ships onto theirs see that batb argument and jb is platonic but jonsa is not nvm taking all the sansan stuff and throwing it on j*nsa but then denying that sansan has canon evidence (like guys I had to read sansa touching his shoulder when saying gregor wasn't a true knight wasn't meaningful and we were seeing things please) and blah blah blah

this also goes hand in hand with the fixation on like... villanizing dany at all costs and like is2g I have zero investment in dany or her storyline I don't even remember it and I don't particularly care abt her either way and sure af I'm not for j*nerys endgame but like.... some stuff I read is completely excessive esp when fixing on how she's a completely mad tyrant who's gonna have to be put down and like... guys no

(also there's some srs stannis hate in that corner which I honestly don't get why they even care abt stannis but I had to read stuff like ppl don't recognize that dany and stannis are the real villains in this saga and like........ idek)

I think most of the og shippers are gone or don't ship it openly bc they don't want to be attached to the drama but like I also think they're pissing off everyone else bc like... I mean a bunch of them also were down with sansa being paired with other ppl as long as it meant a good ending for her except those ppl were... like everyone but the ppl she has actual contact with in canon which meant that at some point sansa/gendry was a thing and like.... you can imagine why arya/gendry shippers & arya stans were fed up, and there's also this tendency to behave like sansa is the center of the entire saga which like these books is named a song of jon snow basically can we pls make peace with it and personally I've had it with both j*nsa and j*nerys people since they started with that dumbass JON/YGRITTE WAS AN ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIP rhetoric but I'm also fed up with the total ignoring that sandor exists/depicting us as delusional and honestly I also was by proxy fed up from the harassing of the sansa/tyrion shippers soooooooooooo

there were also instances of 'well theon is an acceptable choice other than jon bc he can't threaten her' which... i mean we all know what that meant and I'm not even commenting it bc it's one AM and I have no force to but I don't have to explain why it's not a progressive take now do I

there were also metas about how cousin incest being legal in half of the world means that jondany is a worse incest and j*nsa doesn't count as such and I was basically there like guys please just fucking own up to it but honestly I chose to forgot where I read that and I couldn't find the link if I tried

tldr: no one wants to admit that it's not gonna be endgame which considering the amount of fic they have on ao3 is imvho useless bc they have more content than like.. anything I ship that's not jb or that's actually like canon *cries in joncon/rhaegar but I mean renly/loras is canon and has less fic than them* so idk what's the problem with enjoying that instead of insisting it's gonna be canon when not even the show validated it while show truthing anyway when the only show truthing that can be truthed is the small council made of minorities and possibly jon eventually fucking off with the wildlings but not like that but like most people who thought it wasn't gonna be endgame had left/were made to leave by the time S7 rolled by and at this point since wow isn't out yet everyone is fandom-grasping at straws to find stuff to discourse on and we're here beating dead horses *shrug*

so that's... how it is but I would again like to point out that I don't judge ppl on their shipping, I don't particularly care about this entire feud bc I only ship jon with ppl he's not related to in whichever way and I try to stay out of this mess bc I don't really care to argue with ppl who have already decided to bend canon to whatever they want and will have to realize that it's not what grrm wrote at some point but like I have a very good memory and the above rant is as objective as possible also bc again I don't literally have a stake in that race I just think romantic/endgame j*nsa is not a thing and that ppl should stay in their lane and not harping on other ppl who ship whatever in general but especially when their ship is the most popular thing in fandom in the first place /two cents

[whateverthedragonswant]

love all your jonsa metas!!! your last one made me wonder, what do you think they were intending for jonsa before they changed their minds. longing looks? would they have admitted their feelings? more? i know there’s not much to go on, but all the ned and cat callbacks scream marriage and kids. do you think there was a version where jonsa had a happy ending?

Hi there, Nonnie! Awww thank you so much! You are very kind!!!! =D Sorry for the delayed response to your ask, but I wanted to really think on it and give you the most honest answer when thinking about these two. I got a bit wordy in my reply here but what a fascinating topic and a fantastic question! 

Do I think there was a version where Jonsa had a happy ending? Short answer: yes. In the essence that I think they at least discussed it at least once when coming up with the endings for Jon and Sansa, and House Stark as a whole. The heavy foreshadowing they layered into season 7 and season 8 for these two was too specific and too complex for them to not have at least talked about it once in the writing room, whether to build up the audience’s expectations and subvert them or at least to use it as a background kind of idea in order to layer the foreshadowing properly. (D&D actually were very good in dealing with the specifics of this show, down to the tiniest detail, at least Dan was anyway, but I think their egos and wanting to stay away from any predictability and garnering for shock value won out unfortunately which resulted in the crappy writing decisions we ended up getting, i.e. Jaime’s redemption arc nuked, Cersei vs the ceiling, etc) From the Ned/Cat callbacks they did, right down to the dialogue (I recently came across this in a season 1 rewatch and it blew my mind how close they kept the mirroring - x), to the parallels between both characters, and then to Jon choosing to keep his promise to protect Sansa by killing Dany (the confirmation in dialogue of what Jon chose in the end and his 100% mirroring to Ned - x). So yes, I definitely think there was a very skeletal basis they came up with for a Jonsa endgame, or their part of the infamous love triangle, anyways.

Sansa has four bastards in her story line: Joffrey, Ramsay, Tyrion, and Jon - Joffrey was supposedly legitimate when we know he wasn’t; Ramsay is legitimized by Roose; Tyrion is a legitimate Lannister but is treated like a bastard son and even calls himself that: “All dwarves are bastards in their fathers’ eyes”; Jon is never legitimized but we know his true identity by the end of season 7 - so it only makes sense that they were going in this direction, without all of the other clues and foreshadowing, all of the callbacks visually and in dialogue - not to mention: Joffrey - South, Tyrion - South, Ramsay - North, Jon - North -- it would have only kept this pattern/arc going for Sansa had they explicitly confirmed a Jonsa romance

Jon had four women with the color red show interest in him whose interest he returned, if not somewhat: Ygritte - red hair, “kissed by fire”; Melisandre - red hair, priestess of the flame/R'hllor; Dany - Targaryen red & “fire and blood”; Sansa - red hair, “kissed by fire” - it would only make sense to continue this pattern/arc for Jon had they continued with Sansa - Jon loved Ygritte, Jon was attracted to Melisandre, Jon was attracted to Dany and loved/cared for her... Well, we know how he felt about Sansa subtextually (and he knew how she felt about him through that 8x06 script confirmation) though never explicitly

Sansa had been married 2 times: Tyrion and Ramsay - the foreshadowing hints/clues they gave were leading us to anticipate a third wedding to close out this arc for Sansa

Sansa was given away at her weddings by: Joffrey (who she escaped from) and Theon (who she escaped with) - both characters were supposed to protect her but failed, for different reasons - while some might think this points to Jon as being the one to succeed in protecting her and give her away at her third wedding to someone else, the only other character who succeeded in protecting Sansa (or more specifically, had Sansa’s back like Jon did pre-Dany & armed Sansa to protect herself) was Arya “In the winter, we must protect ourselves -- look after one another” - even though they work together and are a team, Arya sort of takes Jon’s place besides Sansa once they’ve reconciled, as the wolf supporting the other wolf like in Sansa’s crown if you will, plus she has that special relationship with Jon (and I really do believe my girl Arya knows something is up or has at the very least changed between J&S) so I think Arya would have given Sansa away at her wedding to Jon 

We know Sansa loves stories and songs, that she wanted a romance with a prince - she fancied herself in love with Joffrey who was a prince in name, but not an actual prince (in chivalry and legitimacy), Joffrey never protects her and instead abuses her; Jon is not a prince but it turns out that he actually is (in chivalry and legitimacy), he protects her and never abuses her - not to mention this little nugget in 7x01: “Joffrey never let anyone question his authority. Do you think he was a good king?” “Do you think I’m Joffrey?” “You’re as far from Joffrey as anyone I’ve ever met” - even though this is about Jon’s ruling/kingship style, it’s also important to note the link they made here, she could have talked about Cersei, she could have mentioned Robert, but she mentioned Joffrey - why? to equate Jon’s role to Joffrey’s, not only to help move the story into the direction of her warning Jon to be smarter than Ned and Robb as well as showing how Jon is as King (leading to his identity endgame) & how different he is to a tyrant like Joffrey, which Sansa has definitely seen before - Jon is the prince she didn’t anticipate, the hero she was convinced actually didn’t exist when her naivete was stripped away from her, the good and honorable and fair King they all should have had - Jon is now linked to Joffrey and the fact that they look like Ned and Cat while saying this, walking the catwalk above the courtyard together, that the Maester interrupts them as a visual framing callback event to a Ned and Cat scene from season 1, just further validates it

Jon and Sansa parallel each other in a way that complements them coming together/meeting in the middle, of their journeys/story lines - Dany and Sansa also have parallels but they parallel in the way that their journeys/story lines come to the same point in a way, meaning going from A-Z, same with Jon and Dany & Cersei and Dany, regardless of who decided to do what in the end - Jon started at Z and went to A, Sansa started at A and went to Z - Sansa started as a trueborn Stark, went from hostage to bastard to hostage again to Stark in Winterfell; Jon started as a bastard Stark, went from Night’s Watch to Lord Commander to King in the North to Warden Of the North to a trueborn Targaryen to traitor/bastard (in a way) and Night’s Watch again to King-Beyond-the-Wall (my personal take of his ending) - it only makes sense to have these two to meet in the middle of their journeys (like they do in season 6), they complement each other very strongly, besides the obvious foreshadowing hints and parallels (i.e. Little Bird & Lord Crow, them both wanting to leave home in the beginning vs them wanting to be back home towards the end & neither wanting to be South in KL) 

I know I’ve mentioned this previously but I will keep talking about this until the cows come home: you can’t have a love triangle with only one two lines, meaning there has to be something on Sansa’s side and Jon’s side in order for it to work to be a triangle, same goes for Jon’s and Dany’s sides, not to mention how Dany and Sansa are paralleled all throughout the series, visually and story/arc wise (that’s their connecting line in the triangle) - it was always going to come down to these two characters on who Jon was going to choose, no matter the reason, since he is the pinnacle point of the triangle (is that the right term? lol) & they represented each of his sides (Stark and Targaryen, he wanted to be both but couldn’t, not with Dany going dark and Sansa & Dany not getting along)

Jon mirrors Ned very strongly and not just in looks but also the choices he makes and the way he conducts himself, as well as his story line - if you take Sansa out of the equation for a minute, looking at the Jon and Dany throne room scene again in 8x06, that’s literally a mirror to the scene between Ned and Cersei in season 1 - it had different dialogue, different circumstances, and Ned’s scene was not about Jon or Sansa but Robert, but in essence it’s a mirror, Cersei was paralleled to Dany heavily, Jon was mirroring Ned (and Jaime somewhat) - Jon could have given Dany the same choice, to flee, but not only would she not have, she would have killed Jon and did what she wanted anyway, or if by some small miracle she did, she would be back with Drogon, ultimately Sansa (and the Starks by extension) would never be safe - Jon did what he had to, Ned wasn’t able to make that decision - love vs duty: protecting “those he loves most” vs the honorable thing in giving Cersei and her children a chance to flee (even though Ned chose love over duty when choosing to honor Lyanna’s request & protect Jon, and confessing his treason to protect Sansa before being executed) which not only led to his demise, Sansa being taken hostage, Arya’s needing to flee, Robb’s and Catelyn’s eventual deaths, and Robert’s death but also paved the way for Joffrey (and Cersei/the Lannisters) to take over - even these lines showcase the two men being in these positions even more so: “It was your mercy that killed the king” (1x08) & “We can’t hide behind small mercies” “The new world has to be a world of mercy. It has to be” - Jon wanted to make the same decision as Ned, he didn’t want to kill Dany, especially since she was family to him and he had some feelings for her, but ultimately he made the right choice in that scenario, one that Ned wasn’t capable of making when it came to Cersei (not killing her himself I mean but telling Robert right away, not warning her and giving her the time to plan and act)

And the fact that it’s confirmed that Jon is mirroring Ned completely in his story line, isn’t it interesting that they had Sansa cast in the Cat role so to speak? That they had her echo Cat not just for her own story line and the House Stark story line, but also in Ned’s world? They were definitely flirting with (and I would argue, contemplating) a Jonsa romance

I will always go back to the second last look Jon gave Sansa on that dock in 8x06 because ultimately there was no reason for it if he didn’t harbor feelings for her in some way, he had already memorized his siblings/cousins for the last time, there was no need for it unless there’s something there, something unfinished in a way - so the fact that they not only had Kit do this (I’m assuming this action wasn’t an acting choice) but kept it in the edited version of the episode that aired, while mirroring their final walks in the end while also mirroring visually the beginning shot with Longclaw to the beginning shot of 6x04 where Jon is getting ready to leave right before Sansa arrives and they’re reunited - yes, I am definitely sure they discussed the relationship as more than family at some point and definitely were layering it in while also confirming that Jon as Ned 2.0 chose to protect Sansa in the end and would eventually be at peace with it (as much as he could be)

They definitely had discussed it at least once in that writer’s room. There’s just way too much overt and subtle clues, way too much complex layering into the fabric of the their individual stories as well as the general one, and too many intentional decisions on their parts in editing, dialogue, and visual framing as well as costume and visual callbacks for them not to have.

As for how it would have played out had they acknowledged Jonsa explicitly with both Jon and Sansa together on screen or even a possible endgame, hmm... That’s interesting. I would venture a guess to say that I think it would have been a love that would have happened the same way Ned and Cat’s did, despite the obvious framing and parallels. The vibe I always got from show!Jonsa was a pure type of love, an almost chivalrous love if you will. (if that’s a term lol) To me, their love would have been quiet, would have been built “stone by stone”, and would have been true in the sense that they both would have ended up being happy eventually. (I also think they showcased this difference big time with the Jonerys romance, the Jonerys romance was not quiet by any means, there were no longing looks, on Jon’s side at least, there was no angst or tension in the same way they had with Jonsa scenes, very little to no build-up, not one where you would be expecting a big payoff, if I had been waiting for Jonerys I would have been very disappointed with boat sex being the big payoff I was supposed to wait for, no first kiss shown, straight into sex, after the physical has been so heavily emphasized and continues to be - Jon was never vulnerable with Dany, he was never really open with her, they really highlighted the differences between these two everywhere you looked) Sansa would have had someone who cares deeply for her, protects her (even when she doesn’t ask for it or necessarily want it), be a true Stark, who helped her to rebuild House Stark, values her input and rules equally with her as a true partner, respects her ruling/leadership capabilities and is equally compassionate for people, truly loves her for her and not looking to use her as a chess piece to climb the political ladder, and cares for their family and the North just as much as she does. Jon would have someone who sees him for who he truly is and not as a bastard (even if say Jon wasn’t really Aegon Targaryen), who values him as a Stark and part of the pack, who is open to and considers his input, who is truly loyal to him and wanted to lift him up to her station (if Sansa was still made QitN in the end) and values him as an equal, who cares for the North and their family & home just as deeply as he does, appreciates his ruling and/or leadership capabilities, is open to the Wildlings and is compassionate just as much as he is, not looking to use him as a chess piece in order to gain more power, and embraces who he is (even his Targaryen name) and not wanting him to hide his true identity. It would have been a very good match and an equal match at that based on the parallels made between them just as themselves in their own individual journeys, as well as their personalities complementing one another. Sure, they would argue and they would continue to frustrate one another at times, but ultimately they both learned how to work together (a lot of what we didn’t see on screen unfortunately, I for one would have liked to see the time in between 6x10 and 7x01 as they learned to co-rule together as KitN and Lady of Winterfell) and that regardless of any disagreements, pack was pack. Sansa grew as a leader through season 7 and very well into season 8. Jon unfortunately, while he ended up learning to take her advice at face value about being smarter than Ned and Robb in the end, didn’t completely grow as a leader (I think he had already reached the point he could have individually in those circumstances). The only growing in leadership that he did was sacrificing his kingship to save the North from the NK by bending the knee, and leading the planning for the battle for the NK. It’s almost kind of sad in a way, because Sansa grew in Jon’s absence, no matter how much she doubted herself at times, while Jon really didn’t have much growth in her absence (after season 6 I mean, he obviously had tremendous growth before then). But together, it would have been interesting to see their continuing growth as a unit, as a team. 

Had Dany never come along and the North had somehow survived the NK (meaning the end results would have been the same all across the board, i.e. Arya killing the NK, Theon dying, etc.), I think they would have grown even closer over time. Before Jon came back in season 8, I really believe Sansa was already in love with him. She really wanted Jon to remain as KitN, right to the end, and she wanted to remain in Winterfell, protected, safe, and no longer at the mercy of others while she helped Jon to rebuild their home and position as the main House in the North. I think Jon had feelings for her but he was never going to go there (pre-identity reveal) due to four things: 1) him being her half-brother, 2) him not wanting to dishonor Ned’s daughter or Ned himself in any way by sullying her with Ned’s bastard (I say this in the way I think Jon himself would have seen it) & becoming the new Jaime/Cersei dynamic while also not wanting to ruin her chances at happiness/her position & station and knowing that as Lady Stark she would need to remarry eventually & have children to keep House Stark going, 3) they could never marry (if Sansa returned his feelings and they loved each other) since the North would never accept it (if they were siblings) and he didn’t want to ever create a bastard child because he didn’t want them to go through what he did growing up, and 4) everything Sansa had been through up to that point, especially Ramsay. I think he absolutely would have kept it to himself and gone to the grave with that secret, continuing to love her from afar, whether he moved on with someone else or not. If somehow it got brought up between them, if say Sansa returned his feelings, I still don’t see him going for it and I don’t see him starting up a secret romance with her, no matter if she might be game or insistent on it. He always wants to protect her and I don’t see that changing despite their feelings for each other. And as far as incest goes, between two siblings, regardless of his and possibly Sansa’s feelings, I don’t see him going there. He has been taught since day one that this is a bad thing, like the rest of Westeros, and that this is most likely a contributing factor to Aerys’ madness and the Targaryen “madness”. So, I don’t see him diving into anything with Sansa based on this little fact alone, besides all of the other things. I know people have talked about Jon possibly being darker if he comes back in the books, but in the show, we didn’t see that darkness completely (except for the beating Ramsay scene in 6x09) and he seemed to be the same Jon, just changed. So I’m basing my opinion on this on what we saw presented. I still see him wanting to do the right thing (just like Ned), and do the right thing by Sansa.

If Jon found out his true identity and Sansa also was made aware & same as above (Dany had never come along), then I see something developing between them possibly, over time. It would be a slow burn, though, just like we saw starting in the show. Starks have married their cousins before in Westeros history (I think I saw that in Fire & Blood somewhere). But because of all the other factors, even if this one roadblock was removed, it would still take them some time to get there, but I do believe they would get there. I believe, depending on what happened with Jon’s true identity, she would have made Jon a legitimate Stark, married him, and had him rule the North with her side by side. They would have had children and continued House Stark after rebuilding it completely. As for who makes the first move, so to speak, that’s a tough one. I see Sansa being more vocal but I don’t see her pushing Jon. If Jon didn’t have to deal with the Dany situation and remained King in the North and had no NK to worry about, I still don’t see him being the one to bring it up, because I still see him trying to be considerate of Sansa, to respect her boundaries and give her space to be herself while not trying to make her uncomfortable, if that makes sense. But do I think he would have been as shut down (meaning this is absolutely not happening) as he would be if he was technically still her half-brother? No. I think he might very softly and very quietly be more open to the idea, though I do see it taking a long time. His self-worth issues are still too deeply ingrained in him, his moral compass is still pointing North (no pun intended, and this is not a bad thing imho), and his concern for her plays a huge factor into the speed of this romance happening. Unless there is an outside circumstance, say the King needs to marry or the Lady of Winterfell, or to unite the North or something. Then I see while he would be open to it, emotionally I think it would still take him some time. We get to see Sansa already there (in season 8 and the 8x06 script confirmation) so I don’t see her shying away from it at all. She’s confident, strong, and knows what (and who) she wants. So I guess, if I had to bet $, I’d say Sansa makes the first move between them.

Jon has always wanted a wife, a family, and home. I see him getting all three through Sansa. 

Sansa has always wanted to be loved for herself, the Pack/family, safety, and home. I see her getting all these things through Jon.

For the slow burn romance that I believe would have ensued, I think it would have had more longing looks, the angst and tension would have increased between them to a point that it would have had to be broken, and they both would have eventually reached a point where they were both ready to be together and continue to work together as a team to co-rule the North.

If we bring the Dany factor back in but pretend she never massacred KL, that Jon stayed with her in the South and she never ended up killing him for being a threat to her (let’s also pretend Varys never wrote to those people & is still alive), then I don’t see Jonsa together at all. I do however see the longing, angsty romance playing out behind the scenes. Jon did have feelings for Dany but he wasn’t in love with her. However, I see him being with Dany as long as she wants him, possibly even consenting to marriage if she proposed it, anything as long as it kept Sansa (and the Starks by extension) safe (if Dany kept pushing past the incest boundary that he kept putting up). (just like Ned saying he committed treason in season 1) Not only would he be fulfilling his promise to Dany to help her take back the IT, but he also would be doing the honorable thing by her and marrying her, even if she never got pregnant from their trysts. It almost would have been a Lancelot and Guinevere situation, without the affair, and Jon being the King (in name only) married to another Queen, and Sansa still being Lady (I’m going on the assumption that Dany wouldn’t have allowed the North to go free and she somehow didn’t kill or remove Sansa from power). I doubt Sansa and Jon would ever talk about it, at least not him starting that conversation. Not only would it put Sansa in danger and anger Dany (if she found out), but it could be considered treason. If Sansa said anything, I see him shutting her down in whatever way he feels necessary and does just that: shuts it down, for good. Even though we know he doesn’t like to lie, I could see him doing that in order to keep her safe. 

If things went the way they did in the show, I do see Jonsa as a distant possibility. Their journeys were left very open-ended. Jon may be going Beyond the Wall with the Wildlings, but he’s still in the North, in the same general area as Sansa, while Arya is West and Bran is South. It doesn’t surprise me in the least that Jon and Sansa ended up with the Wall between them for the time being, considering that they have a rift in their relationship due to what happened. (even though I would hope he realizes Sansa was trying to save his life after some time to think on it) But just like that wall came down, I think the rift will eventually be healed. And I think that second last look on the dock cements that possibility, as well as their ending locations and their paralleled walking scene. While Arya’s was thrown in there, too, they really mirror Jon’s and Sansa’s way more, and show them a bit more than they do Arya’s alone. Now that Jon is considered a Queenslayer and kinslayer, a traitor, in the South (by some, thankfully not all), I’m not sure where his morals stand now. I mean, I don’t think they’ve changed so to speak, but I’m not sure how tightly he would cling to the social class etiquette/norms. He would respect Sansa as Queen if he saw her again and address/treat her as such, but as for waiting for marriage or looking to saddle back into the King in the North role should Sansa offer it to him (I think she would as long as they were a team once again and he is seen as a Stark more than Targaryen by the North, which I would bet my last $ that she would ensure they would), I don’t think he would be so black and white, I think he might be more grey now. So maybe, if Sansa assured him that it’s what she wants as well and she’s truly comfortable, eventually he might give in to those feelings. But how it would progress from there, that is the kicker. Do I think Jon would move back home right away and they would get married the next day and they start making babies? I tend to doubt it would happen that fast honestly. They still have a lot of work to do, a lot to overcome (his resentment at her action eventually causing him to choose and the action he took vs her resentment at him giving away the North to essentially a tyrant no matter the reason and putting them all in danger), and a lot to work out (marriage on the table? kids? Queen and King? etc.). So while he might be more open to a romance between them, it would still take time for them to get there and then once they do, for them to work it out completely. So, slow burn all around, I think lol.

Ultimately, I think they both would have found what they were looking for in one another and it would have been a great relationship to watch as it developed further (even if the cousin incest bothered some), see the power dynamic between them equalize and balance back out as they did once before (in a way), and see how the North (and House Stark) flourished under their joint rule while peacefully co-existing with the South (and Bran) and Beyond the Wall (the Wildlings). 

Do I think there was a version where there was a Jonsa endgame (besides the discussion they had to have had)? Yes. It’s tough to fully commit to because I know that GRRM said the ending would be bittersweet for all and while Sansa gets a good ending, it’s also bittersweet in that her family isn’t there like she wanted, that Jon isn’t the KitN again like she wanted, but sweet in that she secured Northern independence and they named her QitN. Jon’s ending is bitter in that he is banished back to the Wall, not getting anything he wanted, but sweet in that he is now free to go North with the wildlings and free from all of the chaos that had ensued politically and then from the KL massacre. So it’s possible that maybe they intended to stay true to the bittersweet theme all along while also doing their favorite thing (subverting expectations). But I do believe that they did entertain the idea of an endgame at some point, going back to what I said above: there’s just too much there to discount anything other than that option. I’m not sure they had a full on Jonsa wedding or even ending planned, but I do believe there was going to be some explicit confirmation on screen of the feelings there. But I think they backed off on it due to the backlash they knew they would get over what happened to Dany. In the show, hands down, Dany was their most popular character. Everywhere you looked, you couldn’t throw a peanut without hitting Dany-themed merchandise and advertisements everywhere. If say Sansa had said it explicitly and Jon told her “thanks but I don’t feel the same”, then the audience, Dany fans and other fans alike, would have went “but then why did he have to kill her?” Sure, he did it because she was a tyrant who had grand delusions of how her destiny was to create a better world and she would “serve it no matter the cost.” Sure, he wanted the North/the world to remain safe. But that’s not why he ultimately did it (as we know) so it wouldn’t make sense. Sansa is the catalyst, Sansa is the reason he did it, and they made sure to show that to us in dialogue and in Jon’s reaction when Tyrion finally uses Sansa as a last ploy to change Jon’s mind. Even though Sansa wasn’t named in Dany’s last scene, they made sure to let us know that it was indeed about her because of Arya’s scene with Jon before his scene with Tyrion. “Try telling that to Sansa” So it wouldn’t have made sense to have Sansa confirm it explicitly to Jon only for him to shut her down. 

And if Sansa confirmed it explicitly only with Jon to not say anything, this also would have confused the audience while also causing another backlash from those crying out about the injustice of Dany’s death. Does he return her feelings or does he not? Did he know all along or is he surprised? Will he be with Sansa in the end of the episode or not?

Now if Jon returns those feelings, confirming it explicitly as well, imagine the exploding backlash on that on top of the one for Dany’s death. You not only have Dany fans upset, but now some of the GA is going “wait, weren’t they raised as siblings? okay, they might be cousins but that’s still incest. Dany was his aunt and he was hooking up with her, but then he was squicked out about it once he found out who she was to him. but now he’s suddenly okay with it with his sister-cousin? how does that make sense?”

(Plus, I also think they used this sort of same reasoning for why they dropped whatever they had been building up for Jon (pol!Jon anyone?) & Jon knowing how Dany was not going to let anyone surrender in 8x05. The backlash plus pol!Jon would have made Jon look too cruel and calculating to the audience. Same with him knowing Dany’s intentions and being fully complicit in the war crime committed) 

Not to mention, as much as it pains me to say it, it might have lessened the impact of the choice Jon had to make in the end. Not for you or I or other viewers who saw the bigger picture, but for GA, they would definitely just chalk it up to Jon being Robb again, choosing the woman he loves and not giving a flying fig about anything else. Which is totally not the case, of course. We know that he was fulfilling the promise he made to her, keeping her safe, and it wasn’t a choice he wanted to make but had to. Dany had gone too far and she could no longer be reasoned with. Burning innocent children alive and not having any remorse (considering it to be necessary) is a point of no return for sure. But some GA wouldn’t see it that way, wouldn’t make the connections that the show attempted to display through the dialogue and the scenes/events/callbacks. And even though it seemed that the show didn’t particularly care much for Jon’s character in season 7 and season 8, they did care about Jon’s choice and how it would circle back to Ned (and Sansa), echoing the importance of Ned’s decision in season 1, choosing duty over love (warning Cersei vs telling Robert right away), then love over duty (confessing treason vs maintaining his innocence/honor), and the background story as a whole (protecting Jon vs telling the truth about his birth & risking Jon’s safety). That is really the whole story if you think about it, decisions and their consequences/affects. Not that there wasn’t House Stark as a whole, the Targaryens, the Lannisters, the White Walkers, etc. but ultimately, it all came down to the choice Jon would have to make that would determine how the world would go so to speak. Which makes sense not only for his mirroring Ned and coming full circle, but also since he and Dany are two sides of the same coin and are paralleled. Since Melisandre brought them together to play their roles in the future. The world was going to change between the two of them. Dany did in fact break the wheel, it’s just horribly unfortunate that it had to be done so violently. So Dany’s choice and then Jon’s choice, the last two Targaryens, did indeed bring about the new world if you think about it. It might not have been Dany’s vision of her new world but it was definitely a start (a bloody one but you can’t deny it worked). And it makes sense to Dany’s story as Aegon the Conqueror come again, and the show choosing for Jon’s real name to be Aegon. They were always linked and their story was always shared. What choices would they make? Which Targaryen brother would they emulate in the end, Rhaegar or Viserys? Would Dany turn out like Aerys, Jon like Ned, etc. So, for anything to lessen the importance (and impact) of Jon’s decision, I see them taking that very seriously into consideration on how to keep it intact while also presenting it to the audience as a whole, while bracing for the explosion of rage, hurt, and confusion that would erupt after Dany does indeed die. As much as I hate to say it, I do wonder if maybe that was a factor in the end, to keep Sansa from confirming her feelings explicitly, from keeping Jon doing the same, from keeping Jon looking back on the boat and waving (like he did before leaving in 7x02) and Sansa also waving back (even without an explicit confirmation one way or the other). But they still gave us the second last look from Jon, the last look from Sansa as she watches him leave, and the script confirmation of Sansa’s feelings with Jon being aware of them, not to mention all of the subtextual/visual/dialogue/callbacks confirming they were definitely going there at some point. How long they planned to stay there, or if they planned to stay there permanently, I can’t tell you 100% but I definitely think they flirted with and contemplated the idea seriously at least at one point. Especially since they not only had Dany and Sansa paralleled as individuals but also in their relationships with Jon, right down to the touches and dialogue. I just think that they ended up backing out on it and essentially, we were robbed lol. No

pun intended. ;-)

Sorry, Nonnie, if I went a bit off course (and that I went on and on for centuries, I tend to do that a lot lol) but I hope I was able to answer your question fully. It was very interesting delving into how they could have had it happen had they fully committed to it in the end. Jonsa will forever be my #1 OTP for this universe/story and one of the main reasons why is because they just work, and they work well together, not to mention how much I love both of their characters. I always think back to that question Littlefinger asked Sansa in 7x01: “Why aren’t you happy? What is it that you want that you do not have?” Something we never really saw her answer on screen. I’m not saying it was all about Jon and/or romance, but I’m pretty sure we already know what it Littlefinger was referring to by the time 8x06 rolled around. ;-)

Thank you again, Nonnie, for checking out all of my Jonsa meta. I love this couple so much and I keep finding new links every time I rewatch. The romance we deserved but didn’t get, but hopefully will in the books (if it’s what GRRM intends and it’s right). Our Little Bird and Lord Crow deserve happiness. =) <3     

[weirwoodking]

what do you think sansa's endgame is? and i'm not talking ships. like what do you think she'll be doing by the time the books end.

Anon, you accidentally made me write an essay.

So, to try and guess where Sansa could be at the end of the story, we have to look at where she’s heading currently.

She’s currently in the Vale, stuck under the control of Littlefinger. I think Sansa’s arc in TWOW will revolve around breaking free of his manipulation. There’s a line in Bran’s first ASOS chapter that seems to foreshadow this:

Sometimes he could sense them, though, as if they were still with him, only hidden from his sight by a boulder or a stand of trees. He could not smell them, nor hear their howls by night, yet he felt their presence at his back . . . all but the sister they had lost. His tail drooped when he remembered her. Four now, not five. Four and one more, the white who has no voice.

These woods belonged to them, the snowy slopes and stony hills, the great green pines and the golden leaf oaks, the rushing streams and blue lakes fringed with fingers of white frost. But his sister had left the wilds, to walk in the halls of man-rock where other hunters ruled, and once within those halls it was hard to find the path back out. The wolf prince remembered.

—Bran I, A Storm of Swords

It’s hard to find the path back out, but not impossible. I do believe Sansa will return to “the wilds” that belong to her and her siblings.

George was asked once if Sansa still has skinchanging powers even though Lady is gone, and he said she does. We’ll probably see that aspect of her character start to make an appearance in Winds, especially since the presence of magic ramps up with each book. I think it would make sense if she bonded with a bird (such as a falcon or a hawk), seeing as she has quite a lot of bird imagery (particularly caged bird imagery) in her story. Sansa “flying free”, both literally and figuratively, seems like a logical step for her arc.

I do wonder how her connection with the “pack” will be handled. All of the Stark kids except for Sansa have the telepathic bond through their wolves, so I wonder what GRRM will do with Sansa there. It’s heartbreaking, that she doesn’t have that mental connection that the others do. I don’t know if that could somehow be reformed without Lady? There are a lot of unanswered questions about the Stark kids skinchanging powers (and the telepathic bond). Why did their powers only show up when the wolves did? How far do their powers go? How powerful could they become once they’re properly trained? How does the telepathic bond work? Is that a thing that other skinchangers can do? Is it there because of the wolves or is it through the kids themselves? Is it forever broken with Sansa because Lady is gone, or could Sansa reform that connection through another wolf that joins the Stark warg pack? Would it make sense narratively and thematically for GRRM to give Sansa another wolf?

Anyway, no idea what he’ll do with that. (Some sort of scene where Sansa is like “I don’t have a wolf anymore”, and then all the other Starklings crowd around her for a giant group hug and say “that’s okay, you’re still a part of the pack no matter what” is something I could see happening. It’s not like the other kids would treat her any less for not having a direwolf, she’s still their sister.)

A common speculation I see for Sansa’s endgame is that she could become the new head of House Arryn. And, well, the aesthetic of Sansa being Lady of the Eyrie/Lord Protector of the Vale/Warden of the East is definitely cool. The Queen of Birds up in a mountain palace with her flock all around her like a winged army? That’s some gorgeous imagery.

But...

I don’t think Sansa would ever willingly choose to stay in the Vale if she had the option to go home to Winterfell:

She awoke all at once, every nerve atingle. For a moment she did not remember where she was. She had dreamt that she was little, still sharing a bedchamber with her sister Arya. But it was her maid she heard tossing in sleep, not her sister, and this was not Winterfell, but the Eyrie. And I am Alayne Stone, a bastard girl. The room was cold and black, though she was warm beneath the blankets. Dawn had not yet come. Sometimes she dreamed of Ser Ilyn Payne and woke with her heart thumping, but this dream had not been like that. Home. It was a dream of home.

The Eyrie was no home.

—Sansa VII, A Storm of Swords

One of the largest themes in the stories of the younger POV characters (Theon, Jon, Dany, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Rickon (even though he’s not a POV character)) is that of home. Just go on A Search of Ice and Fire and search for the word “home” in each of those characters’ chapters. I think Sansa will end up at her home, with her pack. We know she must return at Winterfell at some point, as she has the final part of this prophecy to fulfill:

"I dreamt a wolf howling in the rain, but no one heard his grief," the dwarf woman was saying. "I dreamt such a clangor I thought my head might burst, drums and horns and pipes and screams, but the saddest sound was the little bells. I dreamt of a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs. And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow."

—Arya VIII, A Storm of Swords

The wolf howling in the rain is Grey Wind (or Shaggydog/Rickon, since it’s raining on Skagos when Jon dreams of his “black brother”), the clangor is the Red Wedding and the bells are the ones on Jinglebell’s hat when Catelyn sawed at his throat, and the maid at the feast is Sansa. And Sansa will “slay a savage giant in a castle built of snow.” That castle is obviously Winterfell, although the fandom has yet to concretely agree on who the “savage giant” is.

Evidently, Sansa will return to Winterfell, and she probably has to get there before winter really starts setting in, or else the journey would be nearly impossible in the deadly weather. So, probably at some point in the next book.

Now, I believe that there’s a big moment coming for Sansa in TWOW: the moment where she unrepresses/uncovers her memories. Sansa knows a lot of important things. She knows the truth about Jon Arryn, she knows that her hair net was used to poison Joffrey, she knows that Littlefinger was involved in the disappearance of Jeyne Poole. Sansa’s memory swapping/adjusting/erasing/repressing (whatever you wanna call it) is important to her character. It’s her brain’s way of coping with the trauma she’s been through.

I think that one of these memories coming to the forefront is going to trigger something big: Littlefinger’s downfall. I speculate that what will most likely come out in the open first is what happened to Jeyne Poole. Sansa finding out what Baelish did to her closest childhood friend could definitely be what turns her against him.

Warning, I’m going to mention the sh*w here for a second. George has said that he wrote Sansa and Jeyne’s interactions into season 1, and that he tried to build Jeyne as a character, but her scenes were cut by the showrunners. Clearly, George cares about her, her friendship with Sansa, and her value in the story, he was very upset about the deletion of her character and of Sansa’s friendship with her.* I believe the reveal of what happened to Jeyne will be a major part of Sansa’s story in Winds. She’s repressed her memories of Jeyne and her disappearance because it is, understandably, too much for her mind to handle thinking about.

The reveal of this memory could be a catalyst to the other memories coming forward, especially since they involve Littlefinger. I think Sansa will be a key part in wrapping up the political aspect of the story, she can reveal the truth of why the Stark-Lannister conflict began all the way back in book 1. She can expose Littlefinger’s lies and schemes. That’s where I think her narrative is heading, at least in TWOW.

I’m not sure what Sansa’s story arc will be in ADOS (I’m not sure what anyone’s story will be in ADOS, but Sansa’s is a bit more of a blank page than others). If the Littlefinger conflict gets wrapped up in TWOW, I don’t know where her story will go from there. Supposedly, she could be in Winterfell at that point. What will happen then… well, then it’s Long Night time. Sansa is not one of the “key five players” (Tyrion, Dany, Arya, Bran, and Jon), but I still think she’ll have an important role in the book. I think Sansa and Arya’s relationship is something that will be focused on a lot through both of their chapters in the final novel. We’re going to see Ned’s quote, “you need her, as she needs you”, really matter.

No matter where her arc goes over the next two books, though, I do think she’ll end up at Winterfell. And like I said, I don’t think Sansa would choose to leave her home again after returning. I think that her story will end with her staying at Winterfell with the other kids. The Stark children would never willingly leave each other after reuniting. Jon literally describes the separation from his siblings as “a deep ache of emptiness, a sense of incompleteness.” And, of course, the iconic line Ned delivers to Arya: “The lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.” I don’t see any of their endings being them as “lone wolves” again.

So, to answer your question, I think the endgame for Sansa will be her back in Winterfell with her family, where she belongs, where she is strongest. I do suspect, however, that there will be some sort of epilogue at the end of ADOS, possibly a “10 years later” or somewhere along those lines. Where she’ll be then, I have no idea. She’ll probably be involved with something politically by then, like ruling or advising.

*Based on what George himself has said about the show’s post-season 4 portrayal of Sansa, I don’t think her story will be similar in any way to the show’s very different version of her character (same goes for everyone). George is typically very mild when talking about the show, saying stuff like “they chose to go down a different path with the story”, but this is one of the only times he flat out criticized the show for how wrong it is. He was very upset the show cut out her storyline. He has also said that “every character has a different end” in the books. So take from that what you will.

[gwidhiel]

Bran in Season 8

A modest proposal

I get why many people found GoT’s treatment of Bran - and his endgame - in S8 to be completely baffling and frustratingly unjustified. As with many all of the characters, the show collapsed a lot of Bran’s development and made some significant alterations to his story, e.g. by making his nemesis be the show-only character The Night King, whose apparent motivation for getting past the Wall and attacking Winterfell was specifically to get to Bran. I too was very frustrated by how little attention was paid to Bran, even in S8 when they knew he was going to end up King in the South.

But as I reflected on what few tidbits they did give us about Bran’s journey to becoming the Three-Eyed Raven, a version of Bran’s story that comports with what happened in the show started to come into focus, with motivations that would have made sense for Bran. The important tidbits I see are:

The Night King’s mark on Bran’s wrist: in S6 when the NK surprised Bran while he was greenseeing, he grabbed Bran’s wrist, which left a burn-like scar. And that seemed to allow the NK, in the real physical world, to precisely locate the Three-Eyed Raven’s lair and to break its warding spells. That set Bran fleeing back south of the Wall, which was still an effective barrier against the NK (but not for long). In S8 the show went to the trouble of visually reminding us about Bran’s scarred wrist, which led some fans to erroneously conclude that Bran was the Night King. So what was the show trying to convey?

My interpretation is that they were implying that a psychic link existed between Bran and the NK, one which allowed the NK to always know exactly where Bran was, and quite possibly to eavesdrop on conversations that Bran participated in or listened to. Perhaps the NK could even spy on Bran while Bran was greenseeing. This would explain a few things that happened in S7 & S8:

Why Bran very coldly sent Meera back home after they’d reached Winterfell. He didn’t tell her “hey, we’ve only got a temporary reprieve from the White Walkers because my dumb-ass half-brother cousin is about to give the Night King what he needs to get past the Wall and then he’ll make a beeline for Winterfell.” He didn’t mention any danger at all, but he was most insistent that Meera shouldn’t stay at Winterfell. Why not mention the coming danger?

Speaking of the coming danger, Bran could have but didn’t let Sansa know with plenty of lead time about the NK coming, which would have allowed her to evacuate all of the non-combatants from places like Last Hearth, and Winterfell itself. Why?

For that matter, why didn’t Bran try to warn Jon and Team Daenerys that their wight expedition would end disastrously and make the situation in the North far more perilous?

Why was Bran so casual when he gave Arya the Valaryian steel dagger, not even mentioning its effectiveness against White Walkers?

And why didn’t Bran mention that the Winterfell crypts probably weren’t the best place for the women and children to shelter?

In the pre-battle planning meeting, Bran sat and listened as Jon laid out their defensive plans, and then interjected to make it clear exactly where he would be and exactly what kind of guarding he’d have. The takeaway from that discussion was that Bran was going to be beneath the weirwood tree with a handful of archers to protect him because they were all pretty confident in their defensive plans and in the ability of the dragons and the assembled fighters to keep the Night King’s forces at bay.

So my take is that, by never letting on that he knew the Night King would end up able to breach the Wall, or that he understood how easily the Night King could overpower Winterfell’s planned defenses (even bolstered by dragons!), Bran lured the Night King into believing he’d be able to get to Bran with ease and to underestimate the risk he was taking to do so. The show made it clear that the White Walkers themselves weren’t deployed in the fight, they were just standing idly by. By doing nothing, Bran set and sprang the perfect trap for the Night King. “Doing something by doing nothing” had been foreshadowed, first by Tyrion in S7 and then by Sansa in S8. There are also echoes of what Robb did in the Whispering Woods to lure Jaime into an enormous tactical blunder.

If I’m right, that was rather clever of Bran - and rather clever of the show. So why wouldn’t they have explained this after the fact? Why not have that all revealed so that the audience could enjoy it too, instead of being puzzled about what the heck Bran was supposedly doing during the Battle of Winterfell?

I think the problem the show faced was that, if they revealed that Bran was smart and was able to know in advance what was going to happen and made calculated moves based on his enemy’s overconfidence, they’d have to address why he didn’t then try to prevent Daenerys’s destruction of King’s Landing.

To be clear, in-universe I think from Bran’s perspective it would have made sense to let The Mother of Dragons, aka the other monstrous magical force that threatened Westeros, go South to her doom once she’d conveniently served her purpose in the North as a diversion for the Army of the Dead. Her armies were depleted and one of her dragons was wounded and was about to be killed. She was still bad news for Kings Landing, but not as bad as she’d have been with two healthy dragons (or three!), and her original Dothraki and Unsullied forces.  But:

if the show had made it clear that Bran had known what would happen, or could have easily known if he’d wanted to, there would have been a huge fuss about why he didn’t stop Daenerys “before she turned dark.” D&D might have realized that, if they’d made it clear that Bran could have at least warned Daenerys about what might lie ahead for her, many in the audience would have grasped at pinning the blame for the genocide she committed on Bran rather than on Daenerys herself. I’ve seen people try to do that anyway!

D&D had decided they didn’t want to devote more time to fleshing out the story, they wanted to wrap it up quickly. And they were unwilling to show their hand about Dark!Dany until the 11th hour, so they couldn’t have shown too much about what Bran was up to or capable of before then, because it would have spoiled their Big Surprise. Yet another way that their blinkered approach to storytelling yielded a very unsatisfying end.

This is all obviously speculation but this read of what D&D showed us about Bran, and why they didn’t show more, leaves me much more reconciled to his end game. I could be very wrong, of course. And even if I’m right in part or whole, I don’t think the show handled his story well at all.

[esther-dot]

There is so much speculation about the Snowsequel! We have the “doom” side and we have the “Jonsa can still win” side and it’s kind of entertaining to see both sides lol. I am a bit surprised by the antis reaction too, it’s incredible how much they still hate Sansa when by show canon the one who actually won the game of thrones and wears the crown that was supposed to be Dragon Barbie’s was Bran??

Funny how they don’t say anything about how Bran will die and how much Jon hates him? Hmmm.

Anyway, I was wondering something about the show. We could say that technically all the Starks had a happy ending except Jon. In spite of the awful writing we can see how Sansa has a purpose, Bran is ruling, and Arya is out there having fun and discovering stuff.

But Jon is...punished, or exiled, or something like that, leaving audiences confused. They refused to present Jon as the villain and yet, he didn’t end as a hero either.

I find it quite suspicious, because in the final montage they present all the Starks as happy, and let Jon keep his sword and Ghost and his wildling friends and that is not the ending of a failed leader, or a broken man, cursed by kinslaying. Either Jon is part of the pack and somehow ends on top like the rest of them, or...falls and ends like a villain. In which case his ending should have been even worse that it was.

So, to me, Jon’s ending is purposely obscured and there is something inexplicable about his not cursed ending (as there is for Tyrion, but I digress).

Do you think the show omitted essential info (idk, something about Brandon’s Gift or something) about how Jon ends in the North again?

I’m on the “doom” side but I’m cheering on the “Jonsa can still win” side!

It really doesn’t matter to me if the rest of the fandom likes Sansa or not, but the obsessive hatred of her in some corners is disturbing. I guess maybe D&D spared Bran some hate by ignoring him instead of subjecting him to their crap writing and the the fandom kinda follows their lead and ignores him too. Silver linings? 😬

“...and let Jon keep his sword and Ghost and his wildling friends and that is not the ending of a failed leader, or a broken man, cursed by kinslaying”

I like your evidence that Jon isn’t cursed/this isn’t meant to be a hopeless ending for him. It’s certainly possible that D&D, out of fear of backlash if they gave Dany’s assassin a good ending, chose to send him to the Wall again rather than give him an unambiguously good ending. The riding off with the FF thing could have even been them thinking, “well gee, he’s our second most popular character, maybe it’s too much to send him to the Wall. Let’s fuzzy this ending to allow people to imagine it anywhere on the scale of back in the Watch or fucking off forever to make snow angels with Tormund.” I did think a lot of s8 was written to manage the audience, not to tell a good/believable story, so I wouldn’t put it past them to have had such a though process. There’s also the possibility that the weirdness around Jon’s ending could simply be the product of their failure to communicate well. The actors have said things that contradict the director of any given episode and D&D contradict that, and each other, and themselves, so that may be the explanation. They were each telling a different story? I mean, reading the finale script was surreal because some of what was said wasn’t really the same as what we saw 😂

When I heard Martin was on board for the Jonsquel, I did think maybe it pointed to the endgame being Jon in exile before a Jonsa reunion when they’re older. I’m not sure who pointed this out after the finale, but it would be another parallel between Aragorn and Arwen if this was the case. Aragorn fell in love with Arwen but then went off as a ranger for some time before they were reunited. It’s possible Martin thought to the end the stories with a promise that a sequel could explore, but then again, it could just be him trying to prevent HBO from going further off the rails with Jon. I’m trying not to read too much into it because I’m not sure that he could put the kibosh on anything even if he really disliked the idea, so I don’t think it confirms anything.

Jon, Lord of the Gift, is a very popular theory in our circle and for good reason. I can’t remember who started it now, but I think of it as istumpysk and agentrouka-blog‘s baby, each of whom I consider more an ASOIAF expert than myself. However, I totally believed Martin that GoT’s ending would be his, and in spite of how I feel about the ending, I’ve never been able to let that belief go, no matter how much I want to. I’m not going to try to persuade people not to believe in alternative endings, I’d like to believe it myself! This one in particular has lots of quotes that make you go 👀👀👀

"Who holds this land?" Jojen asked Bran.         

"The Night's Watch," he answered. "This is the Gift. The New Gift, and north of that Brandon's Gift." Maester Luwin had taught him the history. "Brandon the Builder gave all the land south of the Wall to the black brothers, to a distance of twenty-five leagues. For their . . . for their sustenance and support." He was proud that he still remembered that part. "Some maesters say it was some other Brandon, not the Builder, but it's still Brandon's Gift. Thousands of years later, Good Queen Alysanne visited the Wall on her dragon Silverwing, and she thought the Night's Watch was so brave that she had the Old King double the size of their lands, to fifty leagues. So that was the New Gift." He waved a hand. "Here. All this." (ASOS, Bran III)

(each time we get Brandon confusion sirens go off in my head!)

and

"What happened to them?"         

"They died or went away." Brandon's Gift had been farmed for thousands of years, but as the Watch dwindled there were fewer hands to plow the fields, tend the bees, and plant the orchards, so the wild had reclaimed many a field and hall. In the New Gift there had been villages and holdfasts whose taxes, rendered in goods and labor, helped feed and clothe the black brothers. But those were largely gone as well.

and

After. The word was a spear thrust. After the war. After the conquest. After the wildlings break the Wall . . .          His lord father had once talked about raising new lords and settling them in the abandoned holdfasts as a shield against wildlings. The plan would have required the Watch to yield back a large part of the Gift, but his uncle Benjen believed the Lord Commander could be won around, so long as the new lordlings paid taxes to Castle Black rather than Winterfell. "It is a dream for spring, though," Lord Eddard had said. "Even the promise of land will not lure men north with a winter coming on."    

If winter had come and gone more quickly and spring had followed in its turn, I might have been chosen to hold one of these towers in my father's name. Lord Eddard was dead, however, his brother Benjen lost; the shield they dreamt together would never be forged. "This land belongs to the Watch," Jon said.

(ASOS, Jon V)

and

Jon ignored that. "I have given you fodder for your horses, and once the stair is done I will lend you builders to restore the Nightfort. I have even agreed to allow you to settle wildlings on the Gift, which was given to the Night's Watch in perpetuity."  (ADWD, Jon I) it’s included in The World of Ice and Fire

and

Though in these days it is said that Lord Ellard Stark was glad to aid the Night's Watch with the Gift, and took little convincing, the truth is otherwise. Letters from Lord Stark's brother to the Citadel, asking the maesters to provide precedents against the forced donation of property, made it plain that the Starks were not eager to do as King Jaehaerys bid. It may be that the Starks feared that, under the control of the Castle Black, the New Gift would inevitably decline—for the Night's Watch would always look northward and never give much thought to their new tenants to the south. And as it happens, that soon came to pass, and the New Gift is now said to be largely unpopulated thanks to the decline of the Watch and the rising toll taken by raiders from beyond the Wall.  (The World of Ice and Fire - The North: The Lords of Winterfell)

The fact that this is an old Stark grievance and Ned and Benjen had plans to deal with it is very promising. Rectifying that old wrong, making the land safe and purposeful again, that definitely seems like it would fit really well as part of the endgame. I always liked the idea that Jon could take the throne, but instead makes it possible for Bran to be king to right the aftermath of the conquest (if we assume independence for Dorne as well, not just the North?), so if the followup to that is Jon getting to live out an abandoned dream…that’s beautiful! And it makes sense that Jon would be the candidate who can best keep peace between FF (those who settle South of the Wall, any who don’t) and the Northerners. So, it certainly is an idea that we can look at the books and argue there is evidence Martin is heading there.

And I do believe that D&D were so determined people wouldn’t guess the ending that they could have chosen not to do the necessary set up and then sent Jon to the Wall because there didn’t have anything else to do. I’ve also seen spec that their ending is premature, that Jon is sentenced but then Sansa as QitN brings Jon home. After s8, it’s impossible to think D&D cared much about Jon/his ending, so I do always have that little bit of hope that theirs is a variation of the ending, not the real ending.

I have a big gripe with the ending as it stands for Jon reasons (obviously) but also, I don’t think the Watch should continue to exist? Forcing these kids to swear away wives/children/their lives is gross. But, I don’t have anything that I can point to as proof that the Watch will be disbanded. I find that possibly wishful thinking on my part. Although, I don’t know why we spend so much time witnessing the futility of making kids forswear family if there isn’t some change. And the one thing that does give me hope there (and this would indicate Jon’s ending is something else) is that I believe the Wall will fall, so something about how the Watch functions will change. One other thing that seems promising is the inclusion of the idea of being a shield/protector of the North in both the Watch’s vows and the Gift idea:

“the shield that guards the realms of men” which makes the quotes about the Gift very very interesting: “as a shield against wildlings” and “the shield they dreamt together would never be forged” (AGOT, Jon VI; ASOS, Jon V)

If the Others are completely gone, the main problem in the North would be reconciling the two cultures, finding a way for the FF to live without being a threat to or threatened by the Northern lords. Jon could be the means of progressing Ned and Benjen’s plan into the future/using his sympathy and understanding of the FF he’s developed through the series while continuing to shoulder this role he picked up in AGOT.

And yet, because of things Martin has said in general about the tone he wants for his ending, because of what he’s said about his favorite type of romances (I am a firm believer in Jonsa, just not the HEA kind anymore), and lines in Jon chapters that in hindsight are pretty upsetting, I accept that he always intended Jon to go back to the Wall or a self-imposed exile. I’m not happy about that, but there are some things I just can’t believe were D&D’s idea. It’s a little too tidy when s7-8 had so so so much sloppiness.

I was rereading AGOT, and I simply can’t accept that Martin wasn’t writing AGOT, Jon VIII without thinking of ways to further test Jon. I don’t think he wrote that convo with Aemon solely about Jon attempting to leave the Wall in AGOT, or about Jon trying to leave in ADWD. It feels like the grounding for Jon’s final test, the same way we’re clued into Bran’s role in defeating the others in AGOT, the same way we’re hammered over the head with Arya’s noncomfority and strong sense of justice, the same way Sansa is the voice against violence and the representation of innocents who suffer as a result...Jon’s fate seems clearly fixed in the author’s mind with the love/son/family issue mentioned before he joins the Watch, brought up again here, and so damn likely in the end. And, the sacrifice that it would entail makes the ending meaningful. If Jon were to betray and/or kill Dany onyl to escape any consequences, I think it wouldn’t tell the story Martin wanted to tell with him.

The ending of this Jaime chapter seems very significant when it is followed by the Jon chapter in which he is sent off to assassinate Mance:

Defeated in the Whispering Wood by the Young Wolf Robb Stark during the War of the Five Kings. Held captive at Riverrun and ransomed for a promise unfulfilled. Captured again by the Brave Companions, and maimed at the word of Vargo Hoat their captain, losing his sword hand to the blade of Zollo the Fat. Returned safely to King's Landing by Brienne, the Maid of Tarth.

When he was done, more than three-quarters of his page still remained to be filled between the gold lion on the crimson shield on top and the blank white shield at the bottom. Ser Gerold Hightower had begun his history, and Ser Barristan Selmy had continued it, but the rest Jaime Lannister would need to write for himself. He could write whatever he chose, henceforth.

Whatever he chose . . . (ASOS, Jaime IX)

The crimson and white is very Jon, there’s always a lot about those two colors and him, blood on snow, and there’s this very interesting quote in the following Jon chapter:

"Aye," Slynt said. "A blind man with a chain about his neck, who does he think he is?"

Aemon Targaryen, Jon thought, a king's son and a king's brother and a king who might have been. But he said nothing. (ASOS, Jon X)

I always thought there was a lot to mine in the Jon and Jaime parallels although I haven’t read all that much about them. I wrote this little thing after s8 though because again, some of this stuff folds together a little too well to be a coincidence. But anyway, this idea of determining who you want to be, accepting the consequences of those actions and what people may then think of you, choosing your fate...this will be a huge thing for Jon going forward, and the line “he said nothing” really gives me pause. I find the idea that Jon might choose to be Snow rather than Stark or Targ very compelling. The idea of him remaining Snow only has meaning if he makes that choice, creates himself, chooses his own path, so to me, having the chance at a Stark crown and then a Targ one, refusing both, that’s rewarding. It’s my preferred reading. And, it actually brings me back to your mention of Jon’s sword. It isn’t the Stark sword, and the Mormont bear was replaced with Ghost, so it fits well with Jon’s being his own person, shaped by Ned’s ideals but influenced by other mentor figures, given a weapon that Ned didn’t offer him the same way Jon’s additional mentors teach him things/encourage him to function in ways Ned wouldn’t have…lots of fun things to think about there. Also, Bran has a peculiar line that could eventually be a parallel line to Jon’s, wishing for Summer, rather than the Stark sigil, on his chest,

“He would sooner have had Summer than a silver wolf on his breast” (ACOK, Bran III)

By that I mean, Jon having Longclaw in the end of GoT and Bran a raven sigil isn’t necessarily out of nowhere. The idea that neither is an extension of House Stark but rather, the outgrowth of good things into far bigger, and also, far more personal things...well...that seems very likely although, not really what we would want if the endgame is Jon married to Sansa in Winterfell.

This ASOS chapter stresses me too. The combination of R+L=J, Jon having to assassinate someone, and all of it preceded by this--

A grim day. Jon Snow wrapped gloved hands around the bars and held tight as the wind hammered at the cage once more. When he looked straight down past his feet, the ground was lost in shadow, as if he were being lowered into some bottomless pit. Well, death is a bottomless pit of sorts, he reflected, and when this day's work is done my name will be shadowed forever. Bastard children were born from lust and lies, men said; their nature was wanton and treacherous. Once Jon had meant to prove them wrong, to show his lord father that he could be as good and true a son as Robb. I made a botch of that. Robb had become a hero king; if Jon was remembered at all, it would be as a turncloak, an oathbreaker, and a murderer. He was glad that Lord Eddard was not alive to see his shame. (ASOS, Jon X)

Well, it looks like a bleak future for our boy. I’ve written alternative interpretations of this quote, and I suppose someone could argue that it is about Jon attempting to leave the Wall in ADWD, but the Aemon reference means this is also about what comes later imo. I’m dragged back to AGOT by this quote, where Jon leaves the Wall and thinks of Aemon and honor and betrayal there as well.

When Jon did not appear to fetch the Old Bear's breakfast from the kitchen, they'd look in his cell and find Longclaw on the bed. It had been hard to abandon it, but Jon was not so lost to honor as to take it with him. Even Jorah Mormont had not done that, when he fled in disgrace. Doubtless Lord Mormont would find someone more worthy of the blade. Jon felt bad when he thought of the old man. He knew his desertion would be salt in the still-raw wound of his son's disgrace. That seemed a poor way to repay him for his trust, but it couldn't be helped. No matter what he did, Jon felt as though he were betraying someone. Even now, he did not know if he was doing the honorable thing. The southron had it easier. They had their septons to talk to, someone to tell them the gods' will and help sort out right from wrong. But the Starks worshiped the old gods, the nameless gods, and if the heart trees heard, they did not speak. (AGOT, Jon IX)

and

But he had not left the Wall for that; he had left because he was after all his father's son, and Robb's brother. The gift of a sword, even a sword as fine as Longclaw, did not make him a Mormont. Nor was he Aemon Targaryen. Three times the old man had chosen, and three times he had chosen honor, but that was him. Even now, Jon could not decide whether the maester had stayed because he was weak and craven, or because he was strong and true. Yet he understood what the old man had meant, about the pain of choosing; he understood that all too well. Tyrion Lannister had claimed that most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it, but Jon was done with denials. He was who he was; Jon Snow, bastard and oathbreaker, motherless, friendless, and damned. For the rest of his life—however long that might be—he would be condemned to be an outsider, the silent man standing in the shadows who dares not speak his true name. Wherever he might go throughout the Seven Kingdoms, he would need to live a lie, lest every man's hand be raised against him. But it made no matter, so long as he lived long enough to take his place by his brother's side and help avenge his father.

(it is very similar to the ASOS quote)

and then we have this weirdness

He could not see the smile. Hard as he tried, he could not see it. He found himself thinking of the deserter his father had beheaded the day they'd found the direwolves. "You said the words," Lord Eddard had told him. "You took a vow, before your brothers, before the old gods and the new." Desmond and Fat Tom had dragged the man to the stump. Bran's eyes had been wide as saucers, and Jon had to remind him to keep his pony in hand. He remembered the look on Father's face when Theon Greyjoy brought forth Ice, the spray of blood on the snow, the way Theon had kicked the head when it came rolling at his feet. He wondered what Lord Eddard might have done if the deserter had been his brother Benjen instead of that ragged stranger. Would it have been any different? It must, surely, surely … and Robb would welcome him, for a certainty. He had to, or else … It did not bear thinking about. Pain throbbed, deep in his fingers, as he clutched the reins. Jon put his heels into his horse and broke into a gallop, racing down the kingsroad, as if to outrun his doubts. Jon was not afraid of death, but he did not want to die like that, trussed and bound and beheaded like a common brigand. If he must perish, let it be with a sword in his hand, fighting his father's killers. He was no true Stark, had never been one … but he could die like one. Let them say that Eddard Stark had fathered four sons, not three. (AGOT, Jon IX)

And here is where I give up! As always happens when I start looking at passages to help me come to a conclusion, I get less clarity the more I think about them! Not only do we have Jon wrestling with who he wants to be/who he is, what he can/can’t accept of how others view him, betrayal/honor/love/duty, we also have a lot of Stark and Targ stuff in these chapter, as expected. But what the heck is that last thing supposed to mean?

We can interpret all of these in a couple ways, say it’s about one instance and one instance alone, but to me the ASOS chapter means Jon will voluntarily kill Dany. Except, it makes no sense that he would be punished for killing her as she will have burned KL by that point, but that Ned and Benjen thing did make me wonder if, at least at one time, Bran was meant to judge Jon for deserting? Ned was very judgy about Jaime, but there could be no finding fault with Jon if he kills Dany after she’s burned KL to hell. All the same, it’s an odd quote, and it’s interesting that Ned and Benjen are also referenced in that dream for spring idea, so perhaps the idea shifted?

I enjoyed reading Martin talk about his process the other day and I do try to bear in mind he may start down one path towards his goal only to have to give up and forge a different path to reach it:

The judgment idea felt like something he planned to revisit, at least when writing AGOT, because I think Bran has to be contrasted with other leaders so that we have a sense of his justice, not sure how that could possibly work here though. Martin did have Arya kill a deserter which felt very ominous to me. As in, if Starks are killing people for deserting, it wouldn’t be just to show favoritism to a family member and let them go unpunished, but she isn’t Bran so maybe we can ignore that. Obviously no Starks will be killing each other, and the idea of Jon going back to the Wall is dumb as heck, but imo, there’s something Martin wanted to say there once, maybe not now?

Basically, there’s enough stuff in the books that worries me that I can’t convince myself D&D made up his ending entirely on their own. I’m not sure of the path Martin will take to get there, but to me, the biggest indicator that we’re moving somewhere that Martin always intended with Jon --and that it’s the Wall or exile, *cries*--  is the way he builds on Jon’s Aemon connection and what he chooses to include as he does:

It made him feel odd. "My lord, why have you told me this, about Maester Aemon?"

"Must I have a reason?" Mormont shifted in his seat, frowning. "Your brother Robb has been crowned King in the North. You and Aemon have that in common. A king for a brother."

"And this too," said Jon. "A vow." (ACOK, Jon I)

and then

"Aye," Slynt said. "A blind man with a chain about his neck, who does he think he is?"

Aemon Targaryen, Jon thought, a king's son and a king's brother and a king who might have been. But he said nothing. (ASOS, Jon X)

 and then this

"His Grace is not an easy man. Few are, who wear a crown. Many good men have been bad kings, Maester Aemon used to say, and some bad men have been good kings."

"He would know." Aemon Targaryen had seen nine kings upon the Iron Throne. He had been a king's son, a king's brother, a king's uncle. "I looked at that book Maester Aemon left me. The Jade Compendium. The pages that told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife's blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame."

Clydas blinked. "A sword that makes its own heat …" (ADWD, Jon III)

It isn’t conclusive, but the Aemon quotes keep getting those additional “of a king” tidbits that may very well be true for Jon too in the future as they feel increasingly pointed. The fact that Jon’s all important honor/duty vs love conversation with Aemon kicks off all of this and seems to predict a lot about his entire arc and possibly his ending with his attempts to/breaking vows for the Starks, and then there’s the assassination/stabbity stab stuff in such close proximity to those references...well, I don’t think it’s nothing.

I suppose that means, yes, the show omitted essential steps in how Jon ends up where he is, likely, Jon refusing the crown which paves the way for King Bran, and if it is a fate of his own choosing, and in that choice he protects the Starks, his ending would be that of a hero (to us), but a subversion of the generic fantasy in which the secret prince becomes king or the hero is rewarded. If Jon’s actions give him a HEA, it undercuts what it cost him to make those choices, and I’m no longer thinking that’s something Martin will do. He seems pretty into making things painful. 

Jon might be in the Watch, possibly even a Lord Commander (again) who makes good on all the promise of the Watch which would be an answer to that mess. He might oversee the settling of the FF in the Gift and see it used the way it was meant to be and keep the peace so maybe that’s how the Gift fits in to such an ending. Or, if his end is in real exile, that Jorah is at the Wall and Jon must stay beyond the Wall for some time, maybe D&D weren’t that wrong?

Another thing D&D (may have) cut that would make Jon’s ending a little more filled out is the fulfillment of this quote:

Benjen Stark stood up. "More's the pity." He put a hand on Jon's shoulder. "Come back to me after you've fathered a few bastards of your own, and we'll see how you feel."                 

Jon trembled. "I will never father a bastard," he said carefully. "Never!" He spat it out like venom. (AGOT, Jon I)

I’m not sure that the child would be a bastard as I’m a fan of the secret wedding idea, but it’s possible other characters think the child is because Jon can’t be with Sansa due to new hatred for the Targaryens post Dany funtimes. Perhaps, instead of getting that, instead of being King to Sansa’s Queen, it may be Sansa who rules and then her son after her, in which case, Jon would be “uncle” to a king, to callback to that last Aemon quote, and round out all the dad/uncle confusion that happens throughout the story, and circle all the way back to this moment.

@sepedarodatiga wrote about foreshadowing in the show for a Jonsa baby (link) and @istumpysk wrote about book foreshadowing (link), and I think that could be the missing sweet in Jon’s bitter. The idea of Jon not being able to publicly be his son’s father, it’s crappy, but I think it’s very possible that was Martin’s intention when writing AGOT because in the all significant Jon and Aemon convo, we have this:

My grandfather named me for Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, who was his uncle, or his father, depending on which tale you believe. Aemon, he called me …" (AGOT, Jon VIII)

We all seem to be on board with the Jon is Aemon idea, most Jonsas recognize Aemon the Dragonknight as being big Jonsa foreshadowing, so the whole “is it the father or the uncle?” idea...I suppose it could just be about parentage reveal and Ned/dad/uncle, but considering how the son stuff crops up with Jon, I think it’s likely talking about his future, not just his past.

I know this is really rambly and nothing conclusive, but part of my inability to decide on anything specific is that each path prohibits or secures certain endings. If Jon accepts legitimization as a Stark, even if the truth is later revealed to some or becomes public knowledge, I don’t think he could be with Sansa. I just think going from being Jon Snow to Jon Stark to a Targaryen is too much to make the people accept in such a short period of time. So, if he becomes KitN, it’s possible he feels that it is necessary to self-exile because he never should have been king (regardless of any assurance by Sansa to the contrary) and secures her reign by leaving. If on the other hand he refuses it all, defends Sansa as the true Stark heir, well, then when the truth is revealed, we have far less of a mess and it works with my preferred version in which he rejects both Stark and Targ crowns. The problem with that is that I do think Jon bending the knee makes sense as a statement about choosing peace (where Robb didn’t), so he’d need to be king for that. Which brings me to another beloved theory in which Jon becomes KitN, the truth is revealed, so he marries Sansa to keep the North unified, and if that’s the case, if he then bends the knee to another Targaryen, the North may be pissed. If he then somehow ends up entangled in the mess in KL, I’m not sure that he can emerge without being perceived (by non Starks) as yet another Targ in the worst sense. That could be a reason he leaves. He wouldn’t allow his chance at happiness prevent Bran and Sansa from peaceful reigns.

Of course, the one thing we know for sure came from Martin is King Bran, and if Jon or Northern armies are involved or present during the burning of KL (rather than, say coming to the city too late to stop Dany, too late to save Aegon?), then I don’t see how Bran is the peace candidate. Like, how will he distance himself from Jon so effectively that people will voluntarily choose him to rule after that? So, perhaps Jon will arrive too late, deal with the mess, and then get to go home and live in peace. Hope springs eternal no matter how hard I try to prevent it. :)

Anyway, if I had to pick one path, I’d say, it’s a variation of the Aemon stuff. That feels right to me, and then a similar ending at the Watch or exile for some, as yet to be determined, very believable reason. 😑

So, the answer to your question is yes? They stripped his ending of all agency and meaning, I think Jon will have experienced good things that make his sacrifice worth it to him, but also, no, I don’t think it will be that different.

And I really think the meaningful stuff would have transpired pre exile, so I’m not sure that the show will retroactively be able to make it make sense, and I fear, would just continue the course s7-8 set for show Jon. :(

[silverducks]

Jaime Lannister – A theory on his ending in the books

So, as you can probably tell from my blog, I’m not quite yet over the ending of Game of Thrones, which I binged watched and finished about a month and a half ago now.

The main issue is the ending, or the last 3 episodes to be more precise, where so many things didn’t make a whole lot of sense. The main one being, for me, how the story ended for Jaime Lannister.

So, whilst writing all my super long character analysis for Jaime is definitely helping, (I’m about half way through the next one), I’ve also been reading about possible ways his story could go, and how it might end in the books.

And today I came across a theory I really, really like. It’s become my new headcanon for what will happen in the books and I’ve added a mix of other theories I’ve read to it as well.

Now, show and book spoilers beneath the cut.

First off, I’d like to say I haven’t yet read the books, so this post is based on the show and what I’ve read happens in the books. None of these theories are my own, but I’ve combined them all together in a way that actually makes a lot of sense to me. So until the books prove me wrong – or I come across an even better theory, this is my new headcanon.

(I don’t have any links as they’re random posts/comments etc I’ve found on the net on my phone, but I’m not claiming these ideas as my own, just putting it all together, so I hope the lack of links to source is ok.)

So without any further preamble, the theory is that Jaime and Tyrion’s story arcs and endgame in the book were reversed in the show. This would mean that the main plot points the writer, George R.R. Martin (GRRM) told the screenwriters (D&D), were swapped around between the two characters.

That would mean that it would be Jaime who became the hand of the King, not Tyrion, and Jaime who put forward the idea of the Bran becoming King.

And I love this theory, because it would be such a fitting end for Jaime. And below I will explain why.

Firstly, the idea of Jaime becoming the Hand of the King for Bran is a wonderful final step in his character arc – he’s gone from throwing this kid out of a tower to try and kill him, to serving as his main advisor, trusted with the power and command of the King. Jaime and Bran’s character arcs are already connected, much more than Tyrion’s ever was, and for the similar reason why Bran gave it to Tyrion, he could give it to Jaime – in fact it makes more sense!

And rather than a redemptodeath for Jaime, he doesn’t have to die, and can instead have a fulfilling life, continually making up for past wrongs as the Hand, and with the real love of his life, Brienne. She could still be Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, as per the show, but married to Jaime (they’d change that outdated celibacy/non marriage rule easily enough), giving her a much more satisfying ending. And why does Jaime have to die? He’s atoned for his past wrongs, lost that darn hand that (symbolically in the show), did push Bran out the window, and it doesn’t serve any other higher story telling purpose… And by becoming the Hand of the King, after he lost the hand that hurt said King, is even more symbolic.

I know Jaime has refused to be Hand before, but that was old Jaime. And if we assume Jaime continues on his road to self-betterment, then he can continue to learn and improve the skills that would make a good Hand. He’s becoming more honourable, but has seen enough of the world to know sometimes there’s a conflicting choice (unlike Ned in series one). He’s been learning to rely on his own wits and brains much more since he can’t now just fight his way out of everything – and is proving pretty smart. He is proving to be a good commander of the army and has been a Lord Commander for the Kingsguard. And has enough Lannister cunning, but with actual mercy and honour, to make it work. A stark King with a Lannister Hand!

Imagine, ending the very first episode of the show with Jaime pushing Bran out that window, to ending with Jaime by his side, advising (and also of course) protecting him. How good is a full circle/reflection piece for Jaime as that!

And in a similar vein, Jaime can be the one to put forward to the council of Lords (I assume something similar happens in the books, but much better written), that Bran should be King. That being the all-knowing Three Eyed Raven means he’s a good match. And surely the other Lords would more likely listen to Jaime – who is a good commander – than Tyrion, who hasn’t really won over many of the Lords in Westeros. After all, he was sentenced to death for killing a King (they don’t know it was a set up), and also killed his father and escaped. He’s been in a foreign land serving a foreign (to them anyway) ruler who has just sacked their Capitol city. Doesn’t it just make so much more sense that they’d listen to an alive Jaime? Yes he killed the King too, but he also did a lot of other good stuff as per his redemption arc etc.

Anyway, I just think it makes more sense – and then the Kingslayer Jaime, becomes the Kingmaker Jaime – again another wonderful full circle arc for him.

So, from a storytelling theme, symbolism and arc perspective, I think it just makes so much sense!

But when you also look at the show itself, in comparison to the books and where the show sort of went wrong, it makes more sense too.

So, just to give a bit of background on it, the theory I read today about Jaime and Tyrion’s role reversal was in a post mainly looking at how Tyrion’s character seems to be going in a very different direction in the books versus the show.

The idea is that book Tyrion is in a much darker place in the books than show Tyrion, and this, in the upcoming books, could continue. This could send book Tyrion down a difficult, morally dark path, which could result in him becoming more of a villain type character, perhaps taking on more and more of his father’s bad traits. This makes sense to me, as Tyrion was most like his father and was certainly cunning. And where the books start to properly deviate from the show, after series four, Tyrion could go either way. He has just killed his father and his lover. And in the books he also falls out with Jaime when Jaime tells him the truth about his first wife (that she wasn’t a whore like Tywin said). Being in this foreign land with all these dark thoughts and deeds haunting him, I can definitely see him turning into more of a bad guy.

So, basically, a completely different story arc for Tyrion.

In terms of his endgame? Well, if he’s swapped with Jaime’s then I guess it means he might die. Maybe after killing Cersei, hence them dying “together.” Or at least be punished such as sent to the Wall or something. I don’t think GRRM said either Lannister brother actually dies in Cersei’s loving arms, so I’m guessing they took some differences in both Jaime’s and Tyrion’s endgame, if the theory is correct.

And I’m tempted to believe it is, because it helps explain Tyrion’s kind of dodgy characterisation in the later series of the show. He just wasn’t really the same after series four, which at the time, I just put down to D&D not being clever enough writers to write a clever character such as Tyrion. But with this theory, it actually makes more sense. Tyrion was such a fan favourite character in the show, the underdog, clever, snarky good guy, I can understand why D&D didn’t want to take him down this other, darker path. In the books, there’s much more time and details and PoVs to make it work, whereas the show would struggle, especially against such a popular fandom character.

It also explains why Jaime never told him the truth about his wife, or they had their big fall out in the show.

And by changing Tyrion’s story arc so much, they didn’t really know what to replace it with (I think we all agree D&D are not the best writers), so his characterisation was not only off in later series, but it meant they took Jaime’s end game and gave it to Tyrion instead. And this further makes sense as they might have thought having just Cersei (a female) the only bad Lannister at the end was too much, especially when one of the other main female characters, Dany, was also going bad. So, they made Jaime “hateful” in the end to better match and even out Cersei, because it was supposed to be Tyrion…

(I do think D&D were also unhealthily obsessed with Cersei and Twincest, so they probably thought it have them an extra good reason.)

And there’s a really good reflection in this between the two brothers – Jaime starts out the villain, but ends up the underdog hero, Tyrion starts out the underdog hero, but ends up the villain.

But, in changing Tyrion’s character, if indeed it does, it then also has a knock on effect for so many other things.

The theory also said that he might negatively influence Dany, when they meet. For example, help to slowly bring out her suppressed mad/dark side, encourage her to take Kings Landing (which the theory points out Tyrion actually ends up hating because of how the people there view him.) So perhaps if Tyrion’s influence is so vengeful in the books, maybe’s Dany’s own turn to madness makes much more sense. And the lack of Tyrion’s negative influence in the show, undermines this. And this could then make Jon’s decision to have to kill her much harder etc.

So, I do think it’s quite possible, looking at Tyrion’s side, that they gave him a very different story arc, and so had to swap it up with Jaime’s endgame.

The show has certainly mixed and matched up characters from the book, so this would help explain why the main beats are still GRRMs, but why they didn’t just work for some of the characters. So not completely made up and ruined, but they just weren’t able to make the pieces fit together properly in their changed version. (And I do think they could have easily done a much better job, so I’m not letting D&D off the hook.)

Now, back to Jaime, because as much as I love all the characters, I’ll be honest, it’s only really Jaime and Brienne who I obsess enough over to properly theorise about.

Why do I think this works so well for Jaime? Well, first off, the whole him dying in Cersei’s arms just does not make any sense at all to me (hence all my super long posts about it). Especially if we take into account how over Cersei show Jaime seems in series 8, until that scene in episode 4. He behaves like he’s completely cut ties with her, fallen out of love with her and has fallen truly in love with someone else instead – Brienne. This is even more obvious in the books, where Jaime actually burns Cersei’s letter where she’s begging for help. And when he looks back on it later, he’s dreading retuning to Kings Landing and facing her. In fact, he thinks that Cersei might well die, but there’s nothing he can do anyway and perhaps she deserves it. Granted we do have 2 more books to go, but this is like the complete opposite of his ending in series 8, that I think it’s highly unlikely it was meant to happen in the books. A LOT of stuff would have to happen for book Jaime to change his mind now.

But as they gave Jaime’s ending to Tyrion, as per our theory, then what do they do with Jaime? Well, why not have him die in Cersei’s arms and fulfil their Twincest fix. Have Jaime be the bad brother Lannister, not Tyrion.

In fact, I don’t think D&D knew what to do with Jaime either, as he changes so abruptly in the show. It’s like they had to try to cover Jaime’s actual plot points from GRRM (which I’d assume were things like fighting the dead, getting together with Brienne), but then suddenly have him change his mind and rush back to Cersei... Also, as much as I loved Jaime in early series 8, he doesn’t really do anything pivotal. If you take him out of the equation and have him never even in series 8, the actual storylines all stay the same anyway. So, for me, this further adds weight to the idea that, in swapping Jaime’s endgame with Tyrion, they were left with the same problem, what do we then do with Jaime?

It’s like other aspects – they try to change one thing, but by changing that, it affects everything else so what you’re left with doesn’t make sense for the characters.

Now, so far I’ve talked mainly about the show, because overall I do think the main plot points in the show will happen in the books. And if you consider the role reversal between Tyrion and Jaime, it makes more sense why what happened did happen (which makes no sense in the show story itself).

But this is where I start to tie the various theories I’ve read together – it also makes a lot of sense in the books, for Jaime to not die, but instead be Bran’s Hand.

Other than the wonderful symmetry we’d get, as mentioned above, there’s a few things that happen in Jaime’s arc just in the books that make it even more possible, which I’ll talk about now.

So, most of this comes from Jaime’s fever dream, or also called his Weirwood dream. Now, there’s lots of analysis on this dream on the net, and there’s lots of ideas, some conflicting, of what it could mean. It’s not all relevant to this particular theory, so I’ll just summarise it. Basically, in the books, Jaime doesn’t go back to save Brienne from the bear straight away. Instead he travels quite far away with Bolton’s men, and goes to sleep on, what we assume, is a Weirwood stump. At the same time, Jaime is also suffering from a fever due to his hand becoming infected. Now, that means he’s potentially delirious, but also the dream is potentially prophetic. The Weirwood trees are those magic trees that Bran uses to have visions and to find the first Three Eyed Raven. I’m sure there’s more about them in the books as well. But it’s this potential for it being prophetic that I’m most interested in here.

Ok, so the dream starts a bit like a nightmare – Jaime is led somewhere underground that’s dark and feels dangerous by lots of ghosts. He first assumes it’s under Casterly Rock, and indeed he thinks he’s surrounded by the ghosts of the Lannister family. He’s scared and naked (eg vulnerable) and his father, sister and Joeffrey come. Cersei is holding a torch – the only light in the world for Jaime, but they leave and Jaime is left scared again in the dark. Before they go, he begs them for a sword, which Tywin says he gave him, and he begs Cersei to not leave him. Jaime finds a sword and as he touches it, the blade flames blue, providing some light. Now, a lot of analysis on this part of the dream tie it to Jaime’s metaphorical death, (ie of the old Jaime going to Hell) or breaking away from his family so they leave him. The light of Cersei’s going out, and instead a new light on Jaime’s sword coming, could also then symbolise that he’s breaking away (or about to) from Cersei and finding himself, his own light, instead. I also think, as we know Tywin and Joeffrey die later in the books and show, that it’s also foretelling their deaths. Which means it’s likely that Cersei dies before Jaime in the books, hence why he leaves her and he can’t follow. So this firstly means Jaime can’t die in Cersei’s arms.

Now, the next bit of the dream gets interesting, because who shows up next, after Cersei and his family has gone? Brienne of course! She appears (also naked) and Jaime imagines she looks not only more like a woman now, but also that in the light she could also be beauty, and a knight. This is generally taken to show Jaime’s growing (and so far subconscious) attraction to Brienne – and that he sees her as both a warrior and a woman. Now she asks for a sword, and also asks to be able to keep him safe, as she has pledged this and must keep her oath. A sword appears and Jaime gives it to her, and it also starts burning with blue flames.

Now, I think these two swords represent Oathkeeper (the one Jaime gives to Brienne in series four) and Widow’s Wail, which Jaime gets after Tommen dies in series 7. And these are two Valyrian steel swords that were from the melted down sword Ice, which used to be Neds. Now, I don’t think this is coincidental, but again I’ll come back to this.

Brienne is there to help protect Jaime, but she also asks him what’s down in this dark place (which may or may not still symbolise Casterly Rock or another place). Jaime says doom, and Brienne is worried it’s a bear (foreshadowing her being in the bear pit later). We hear, but don’t see Cersei saying that if the flames go out, Jaime will die.

In the next part of the dream ghostly, mist like figures appear and Jaime recognises them as his former Kingsguard and then Rhaeger, the heir to the throne before he was killed in Robert’s rebellion. These ghostly figures accuse Jaime of not keeping his oaths and seem about to attack. Jaime tries to plead with them and give his reasons, and Brienne is still there ready to defend him. These ghosts likely represent the internal guilt and self-hatred Jaime still has for killing the Mad King, but also for not saving Rhaeger’s own children, which were murdered on Tywin’s orders. As the ghost like figures continue to accuse Jaime, the flame on his own sword goes out, and the ghosts rush in, and then Jaime wakes up. As soon as he wakes up, pretty much, he demands Bolton’s men take him back to Harrenhal, where he then saves Brienne just like in the show.

Now, I read a lot of people saying this foretells Jaime’s death, that his flame goes out, but I disagree. I think the fact that Brienne has a matching flame, on a twin sword to his, means that Jaime doesn’t die – after all Cersei says flameS. Instead, I think this ending to the dream foretells that Brienne will actually save Jaime – that as long as she is alive, Jaime will also be.

Now, onto more foreshadowing theories from this dream – I think the ghostly, mist like figures also represent the White Walkers, and that him and Brienne are there facing them means that they will indeed (just like in the show) stand together to fight them in the books. As this has also happened after Cersei has left Jaime with his now dead father and son, I think it means she’ll already have died by this point.

I also think his guilt and the mention of Rhaegar’s children, which Jaime feels guilty about failing to protect, will also tie into Jon’s storyline. As the only surviving child of Rhaegar, I think once Jaime finds out, and Jon, Jaime will pledge himself to protect/serve Jon to make up for this guilt. I then think, based on this, that Jaime will effectively save Jon’s life in the battle with the White Walkers and then, Brienne will have to save Jaime’s. After all, she says in the dream she pledged to protect and save Jaime.

Now, the reason I think the end of the dream means Brienne saves Jaime, is not only because her flame keeps burning in the dream, but also because, as soon as Jaime wakes up, he decides he has to save Brienne. As we are going with the idea that this dream is prophetic from the Weirwood stump, it seems very important that Jaime rescues Brienne, so she can be there to fight with him. And what better reason than having to save him, when his own light (the sword flames) has failed?

And those swords – two halves of one whole, from Ice, the Stark’s sword. Turning into blue flames and helping them in the battle against the dead. Likely at or near Winterfell like in the show… When the books have a theory about a special sword called Lightbringer, wielded by the hero Azor Ahai to defeat the Others..

Soooo, perhaps this is really going into the realms of fan theory, but I definitely think that ICE could be Lightbringer, and that Brienne and Jaime, with Jon (who imo is the Azor Ahai character) will be imperative in helping to defeat the White Walkers. And that Jaime will fall in this battle, and Brienne will have to be there to save him so he doesn’t die.

Now, you might ask, what does all this random dream theorising mean for Jaime becoming the Hand of the King? Well, first of all I think it foreshadows that both Jaime and Brienne have a major part to play in the battle against the dead – much more than in the show. And that as Jaime is near death, it was super important for Brienne to be there to save him. And that it was super important for Jaime to give Brienne the sword Oathkeeper, and have Widow’s Wail himself – two halves of the same sword. So, all this must happen, and Brienne must save Jaime, which is why Jaime was given the prophetic dream in the first place. After all, if he hadn’t of saved Brienne, none of the above could go as it should…

And, this is where Bran comes in and this is more my own idea than anything else, so forgive me if I’m just not understanding the books properly. But as Bran himself sees visions through the Weirwood trees, which I suspect are due to them being sent either by the old Three Eyed Raven, or markers from Bran himself in the future, or perhaps fate or another unseen magical force. Then I wonder if the reason why Jaime was sent this vision, is because of Bran – and also the White Walkers. That Jaime had to help in the fight, but also had to be saved by Brienne. (Maybe even because it’s through his interactions with Brienne that he does become a better person and chooses to fight). And he had to be saved, because it was his destiny to be the Hand of the King to Bran. And also to save Jon so Jon can defeat the White Walkers. And that perhaps, this saving of Jon by Jaime is another reason why he is chosen as the Hand of the King.

I would also like to add in here, my other theories for book Jaime, which can lead him up to being Hand of the King, and tie up other loose ends in his story arc. So, the books and the show deviate a lot for Jaime after series four – he breaks away from Cersei much earlier and he’s currently off on an adventure in the Riverlands with Brienne in the books. A story arc not put into the show, featuring Lady Stoneheart (LSH). Now, she is a re-resurrected, zombie like version of Catelyn Stark, who is hell bent on revenge for the Freys and the Lannisters for the Red Wedding. She’s threatened Brienne with the death of Pod, unless she brings her Jaime. (At least that’s what most people infer from the books, it’s left open ended on a bit of a cliffhanger.

Now, my theory on this is that somehow Jaime and Brienne will have to fight each other in a trial by combat (echoed in the show itself by Brienne’s line about maybe having to fight Jaime). Of course they won’t be able to kill each other and will somehow be able to escape from, or kill Lady Stonehart.

So, why am I mentioning this? Well, GRRM himself has said he was disappointed they didn’t include the LSH plot in the show. Instead, D&D completely cut it out and sent Jaime to Dorne instead (as in series 5, which isn’t in the books). But for GRRM to say he wanted it in the show, makes me think there’s something very significant that is going to happen from it – either to the characters, or their relationship. Something which will later prove to be important in the rest of the story. This makes me think that Jaime and Brienne have a much bigger impact on the overall story arc than they were given in the show. And if it is more important, it makes the idea they’d have an important ending as well – Hand and LC of Kingsguard respectively – make more sense. And perhaps add more weight to the idea that Jaime HAD to save Brienne.

Now, after LSH, my idea is that Jaime will have to go back to Kings Landing and Cersei – but not in a romantic way. I think, like in the show, Jaime’s going to have a story arc that takes him on the role of commanding the Lannister’s forces against Dany’s when they get to Westeros. And if we assume Cersei does die before the battle with the undead, maybe this is also when Jaime kills Cersei – if he is the Valanqar, the one prophesised to kill Cersei. Or it could be someone else…

I then think the battle for Kings Landing will happen before that of the White Walkers, so Jaime then goes to help in the North, and catches up with Brienne again, who has been busy saving Sansa after her and Jaime parted ways (on good, but still unrealised and not yet acknowledged romantic terms) after LSH. I then think, like in the show, Jaime and Brienne will get together near the end, but this time not only will there be no Cersei for Jaime to rush back to (and throwing his character arc out the window like he does in the show), but he will still live to then become King Bran’s hand.

Of course, there’s still so many unknowns, and all, none or bits of this could happen, so I really hope we do get to see the last two books and find out what really happens.

But until then, I’m going to stick with the idea that Jaime marries Brienne, and becomes the Hand of the King and survives!

There, that’s the end of my theory – several all tied together really. I’d be interested to know what people think.

I know that my later reasons are more random ideas, but I do think, above all, the idea that Jaime is going to be the Hand of the King, not Tyrion, helps explain why the show didn’t really make sense for those characters (Jaime's 180 change at the end being the main one). But also just the wonderful symmetry of a redeemed Jaime fulfilling the role of Hand, for a King he once tried to kill, after he became a better person after losing his own hand…

[redteabaron]

Could u talk about the 3 giants with the prophecy?

So bad omens/bad tidings come in threes in asoiaf. It's there throughout the books where each bad thing progressively gets worse, or confirms that the first thing that happened is just the beginning.

Threes exist everywhere in asoiaf; in particular, magical things or things that will have more significance or be more than what we expect but it always seems to signify bad things. Three Lannisters, three dragons, Three Eyed Crow, for instance.

We have multiple references to a giant in Sansa's storyline. I don’t think Sansa encounters one giant. I believe there’s three because we have evidence of all these "giants" being a part of her storyline as antagonists.

The first giant - destroyer of Winterfell:

Sweetrobin (and his doll). He's a kid and a brat and doesn't realize what making that snow castle meant to her - the closest she can get to Winterfell, a place she associates with family and safety. To him, it was just something to trample and get Sansa's attention - who effectively becomes a surrogate sister, mother, playmate, caregiver to him. It doesn't mean he's a villain in any way but in this moment he is her antagonist, and he's an innocent one at that; he's a poorly socialized child that doesn't recognize boundaries or know how to interact with people.

But he destroys the memory of her home she's losing herself in, a home she desperately wants to go back to, a home that remains a place where her family was last whole. She rips his doll, the giant is defeated and her "home" is avenged. The first giant is slain in the name of a castle made of snow.

The second giant - the savage giant

Littlefinger/Baelish. His sigil is the titan of Braavos, and the machinations that ripple across Westeros leads us to believe he is a man of enormous reach (a giant). I'm torn on what (or who) may exactly happen to him, but no doubt that Sansa will have a hand, indirectly, in his death. If Sweetrobin lives, Sansa/Alayne may be able to provide evidence of what he's done and confirm that he orchestrated SR's poisoning (which she doesn't know is actually meant to kill him, she's not a maester). I know one thing - I don’t believe he makes it North. He never makes it to Winterfell.

I don't think he even makes it out of the Vale. He's chosen to be there and collected his power around him, his victims, and is assured nothing can go wrong, that everything is carrying on as planned. He’s comfortable.  He’ll die in a castle made of snow but it doesn’t need to be in the North - maybe he’ll die in the Snow waycastle if he tries to flee, but is caught. (And it's already snowing in the Vale anyway - any castle he dies in could be made of snow).

On one hand I think SR/the lords of the Vale will call for his execution as vengeance for Lysa's murder and the poisoning of SR once the truth comes out.

On the other hand, I'd love it if Lady Stoneheart would be the one to have him executed - he tore apart a kingdom which causes the deaths of her family, murdered her sister, obsesses over her, and forced his sexual attentions on her daughter to groom her for his personal use. It'd be just desserts if he "got" Cat only for her to be his end. But due to time constraints, this one would require more storyline timeline info for me to bet on certainly against SR and the lords calling for his execution. No matter what, however, Sansa will be the catalyst of his end - either providing evidence to the lords and SR for his crimes, or to LSH who would kill Petyr for touching her daughter. I specify him as the "savage giant" in this thread due to his actions directly affecting Sansa (identified as the maid who slays giants) and Jeyne (who he helped trap in a snow castle).

The final giant - the giant at the end of the world in a castle of snow

Tyrion. Book!Tyrion is completely a villain (I don't acknowledge show!Tyrion here; Show!Tyrion is pretty unrecognizable from his book incarnation). There are quite a few statements people in asoiaf make about Tyrion being a giant, unprovoked, but my personal favorite is this remark Aemon makes when Tyrion visits the Wall:

"Oh, I think Lord Tyrion us quite a large man. I think he is a giant come among us, here at the end of the world."

Aemon is responding to Bowen who snidely points out how much Tyrion drinks for a ‘small man’. But the second part of the quote always hooked me. He’s referring not just to Tyrion’s large appetite/self who’s larger than is believed, but the fact that he’s at the Wall; the end of civilization that Westeros recognizes, but I think there's a couple deeper meanings.

Tyrion as the giant that comes to them at the end of the world:

1. from the perspective of southron Westeros, he'll be bringing dragons and a dragon queen who will burn them and be the end of their world as they know it (the dance of dragons 2.0, the burning of King's Landing, an invader bringing a foreign army, a usurper of either Aegon VI or of the still seated Lannisters if they're still alive) (the world ending in fire)

2. Tyrion will arrive at Winterfell to collect "his bride" and the claim of Winterfell and the North, on behalf of Dany (but operating for his own desires) after the war against the Others (the world ending in ice) already happened. If Jon misses the war against the Others, I think it's very possible, and he'd only be in the south to ask for assistance or dragonglass because I don't see him being crowned KITN (Rickon or Bran or Sansa will be acting as KITN/LOW and he'll have to be their emissary).

I think there's a good chance that the ending in ice happens before the ending in fire; the Others will be dealt with before Jon can leave the south.

In turn, Tyrion may be sent to negotiate with the regent/Lady of Winterfell (assuming no one knows Bran and Rickon survived) about swearing fealty to Daenerys esp if Aegon VI is still alive and he and Dany haven't begun their dance yet. Jon is forced to stay at the behest of Aegon and Dany as a mediator, perhaps, if the revelation of his birth comes out; I think there's a good chance he finds out before he goes south (three heads of the dragon meeting in KL - not good tidings and bringing back Jon's time as mediating peace between the Watch and the freefolk).

3. If the Night's Watch is still operational at the end of asoiaf, I think that's where Tyrion's endgame lies. At the end of the world (and in a position and place he mocked in the very beginning for being useless).

How would Sansa be the end of Tyrion? By denying him. She denied him before and this time so will the North. Sansa will "slay" him metaphorically. Those dreams and aspirations and desires? She will be the end of them. She won't let him have her or the North and vice versa - Ned (the North) won't let that Lannister [(wo)man] have this skin.

Neither she nor Lady (whose bones rest in Winterfell) will fall into Lannister hands for good.

If he does become Hand of the King it would be...odd. A complete glossing over of his crimes when grrm has setup indications that ppl might not be punished immediately, but they will be punished. Plus, if Tyrion returns to Westeros as Dany's Hand then he'll have served under two tyrants. Rule of three, serving under Bran would...not be a good look. It's a guideline grrm has set for the threes in asoiaf.

Maybe in the books the King of the 6/5 kingdoms hands Tyrion's judgment over to Sansa and she sentences him to take the black; honoring a promise that his nephew (a Lannister) broke to her and Ned (Starks). Who knows. I don't hold out hope for him suddenly aboutfacing and becoming a hero who then faces no consequences - him turning on Dany after she burns KL won't pardon his other crimes; rape, kinslaying, molestation, planning to use Dany or Aegon as his hammers against KL/his family.

Hope that fully explains it, others have done a better job writing tyrion as a villain meta. Thanks for the ask.