#anyway sorry im just tired of the discourse :/// | Explore Tumblr posts and blogs

velvetvexations · 5 days ago

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If the parallels to ace discourse weren't enough already, now I once again have to deal with people i thought were chill and reasonable suddenly dropping their takes on how they think asexua- sorry, I mean trans men, are not really oppressed and actually have privilege over everyone else and are basically not queer at all Time is a circle and i want out out oUT OUT OUT

Thankfully you never have to worry about me having a bad take because everything I say is written in advance by the Transmasc Council's Chief of Enacting Transmisogyny.

I don’t know if this is transmisogynistic or not but I’m just so tired of the claim that “the moment a trans man transitions and is seen as a man, he gets all the privilege” Okay TRFs, what about YOUR privilege before YOUR transition? When people perceived you as a man, did you not have privilege?

The logic would go that transmascs get it because they want to be seen as men but for trans women it's an unwanted state and also people can sense that they're women telepathically and treat them accordingly anyway.

Hey wanna hear something fun. Out of the 77 or so people elected to public office in the united states, 6 or so were trans men. With the majority being trans women. It's so fun hearing about how structurally privileged trans men are compared to trans women when there's only been 6. Fucking SIX. of us elected to public office. with at LEAST 50 trans women elected. In the united states. I'm so fucking tired. I mightve miscounted, there mightve been one or two that I missed, but honestly that does not bring me much comfort!

Fascinating.

sharing this here bc i like how accepting velvet nation is of gender journeys: i am a trans man but i feel like i very much was and will continue to be my father’s daughter? not in the sense that he doesn’t respect who i am but in the sense that that is the framework of how we understand each other. my gender is 100% man and daughter is simply the word i use to define our relationship :)

That's really cool! Glad you have that with him.

Got my first profile-screenshot-share (afaik) because someone was pissed at a comment I made! I’ve hit the big leagues! Now im just waiting for my first drowning :P - @genderglass (is a sideblog, so I can’t send asks from it :/)

Congratulations!

hiya velvet! ok 2 things: 1 i am happy to know there is another trans person who is tall and 300lbs+. i am only 5'9 but it made me happy to know this is a thing we share. i can feel v alone as a bigger trans person a lot, so i am grateful. 2 ok so i havent seen unsleeping city yet but i just watched the new time quangle and my god murph grew cody walsh in a lab for me. hes literally me at 12. jersey native with an "emo haunting anime cons in 2004" look and personality? that was literally, genuinely me. gotta watch that season ASAP!

I should warn you Cody gets dunked on pretty hard. It doesn't feel to me like Murph likes him very much lol but I haven't watched the Quangles because I'm a lot less interested in live stuff on average aside from Jake and Amir's live IIWY episodes which are always real funny.

In the defense of the person saying the t4t sex jokes are sexual harassment. I HAVE seen people responding to transfems posts on here talking about (supposed) intercommunity problems with jokes about how actually transfems and transmascs are having sex or whatever, which I think is kinda gross and inappropriate. However, most of the examples I can think of were transfems doing it, so.... take that as you will

TRFs complaining about "trans women and trans men are fucking" being sexual harassment and then justifying throwing their forcefem fetish at random men is funny, in a cosmic sort of way.

i just saw -*- say that trans men face no oppression unique from trans women (wrt reproductive rights) bc trans women lack access to reproductive banking. Buddy. Reproductive banking is incredibly expensive and very rarely covered by insurance. Everyone except wealthy ppl lack access to reproductive banking. And I'm sorry if this is rude to say but lack of access to the opportunity to become a parent (which is sad! and wrong! and at different levels applicable to every queer person in the world!) is simply not equivalent to forced pregnancy, which is a violence and a trauma forced onto someone and not a *lack* of opportunity. I don't even disagree necessarily that trans women are more vulnerable than trans men and do believe I have privilege over trans women as a trans masc but hoooooly shit. That's an insidious fucking false equivalence and I still don't get *why* trans mascs can't just have space to talk about the problems unique to us.

The Transfem Council will happily let you talk about your issues as long as you submit your statement in triplicate to their editorial department 15 days in advance.

Everyone posting about how I have to prove myself and earn their trust is just proving themselves to be someone not worth talking to. I don’t think people should have to bend over backwards or do something to prove that they won’t be terrible to you, actually. Thats fear and trauma speaking, not social courtesy. It’s not normal and should not be normal to automatically distrust everyone to a point of prematurely ostracizing them. And if anyone wants to argue a large enough proportion of the trans community in ANY demographic acts poorly enough to warrant that sort of suspicion they don’t have a leg to stand on.

It's not even fear and trauma. Most of them are just using Literal Fear of Man as an excuse to do this shit, although if they want to argue no, they really are all just shaking with abject horror whenever a man draws near, I guess they must believe in Andro Phobia, right?

#transandro phobia #discourse

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scopophobia-polaris · 1 month ago

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So, to add on to Navi's post, because her whole read for the original was getting screenshots from the game to debunk what was said, of course....we are now here. I want to tell you that no one here disagreed with your conclusion about Ganondorf being a victim. What we here disagreed with was the method you used to get there. Simplifying Ganondorf down to solely good or solely evil is something this Fandom does all the time with little to no nuance. And even though you have written an eloquent essay, Published even! You twisted or outright made up parts of the game to get to your conclusion. In essay writing, that's called a logical fallacy, and the whole essay either twists what happens in the game or outright gets it wrong.

Now people are probably gonna wonder why I'm treating this like a big deal or why I'm speaking so blunt, because this is by all means very stupid fandom drama.

But I think when you're a college prof and you get an essay published and it's online for people to read everywhere without you, one, not giving the context behind Ganondorf's creation and the coding of his appearance and motivations, two the complexities of a corporate conglomerate in a notoriously socially conservative country taking aesthetics from countries who were historically colonized. And Three, The way that video games are a collaborative effort with usually no singular vision, this is very true at nintendo despite what people may think, and at any moment changes can be made for any reason by team leads or executives that would hinder or even hurt a story. It detrimental to the audience reading it that you do not provide them more of a couple of screenshots

Basically, many things go into a story and now I'm taking this more from a DOYLIST view right here talking about Nintendo. But I'm doing this because you keep trying to say..... well fuck man do I need to pull up more examples? Navi got them all, the whole essay is you trying HEAVILY to imply that Nintendo MEANT to do all of this, as in intentional in the story, idk I feel crazy, words have meaning, specific wording has implication, oh and this dosent even get into how localization can change things 😃😀 wording has meaning and sometimes translators don't have cultural contexxxtttttttt and to not even mention about Nintendo's history or even the short hand that comes from Ganondorf's design and the historical Orientalism behind it feels like a disservice to the paper, but much more qualified people then I have discussed the way Ganondorf is written and probably would love to discuss or link to previous writing again if asked.

And this is a cold take but Nintendo isn’t the place you should be looking to for deep story telling, they will always be a corporate entity first and the bottom line is a general audience, this does not mean JUST KIDS this means to a generalized population. And this is extremely cynical but a lot of people cant even handle the complexity of a female character who is mean, like Midna, do you really think people would handle a Ganondorf like how he is in Tp being portrayed in any form of film language as good????? This game dropped 5 years after 9/11, Nintendo was never gonna lose out in money like that.

And Dude people have given so much shit to HUGE fanartists and comic authors about their work portraying Ganondorf in a sympathetic light, you would of thunk more people would of picked up on Ganondorf's story being written as tragedy if there was something in the game that actually DID that. Maybe they would of written a blog post about how Midna saw Link kill Ganondorf and was ashamed of that or Ganondorf TOTALLY said the history of light and shadow will be written in blood thing before the final battle, you think people would of talked about huh why did Ganondorf say that there or something and maybe went 🤔 instead of it being argued that Tp Ganondorf had the weakest writing of the series until TotK threw a pile of flaming shit at my door with a picture of Ganondorf on it.

Navi also goes in depth on how Hyrule has not exactly stagnated like what was claimed in History of Light and Shadow by using the Goron merchants and Yeto as examples.

Rynling has stated that the cause of the stagnation and decline is due to an ineffectual leader that has "Not allowed its people to be revitalized by change and diversity."

Now I am familiar with the flaws of an undetermined national unity, I am very familiar with the subject, but I’m not going to speak like an authority. Id rather let someone much more qualified make that post and I link back to it, because i know its coming. But Navi said in her post that the idea of what could of happened at Arbiter's Grounds can completely blow over someone's head if they didn't play OoT first, and I think more or less this is accurate, certain things are lost in Wind Waker even with the recaps, but I wanna join in on this in my own way...

Rynling....you may say Hyrule has been on a decline during Tp......you may even think OoT had a more stable Hyrule or some shit.....i THINK YOU FORGOT ABOUT THE PLOT OF OCARINA OF TIME BAYBEEEEEEE

THE SUPPLEMENTAL MATERIAL THAT I CAN PULL UP TO PROVE MY SHIT ABOUT OOT HYRULE BEING DOG SHIT IN COMPARISON TO TP

Like if you're seriously gonna link me and Navi to your essay then I am about to go full BTW it's a Sativa and eat that bitch after midnight cuZ we YELLIN ABOUT OCARINA OF TIME ON THIS POST FOR EVERYONE🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟

All of Ocarina of Time's narrative is haunted by the civil war, the whole reason why Link is being raised in the woods is cuz of the civil war, the Sheikah are implied to have died out during the same conflict, and well its said that Hyrule was unified during it

Civil War yet the translators use unified the country like it WASNT under a sole ruler before? Hello? I need to go back through the Japanese script for the game again to see if i missed something of the game and freak it harder. And do realize the Deku sprout in this screenshot says fierce war but every where else, including the Zelda wiki (not fandom) its CIVIL War.

The Gate to Death mountain and Simultaniously the fence at Zora's river gives us and idea that peace was....tenuous at best downright hostile at worse given relations with the Gerudo

so today we gonna do some fun comparing and contrasting the Gorons and how they are treated in OoT to TP

and we gonna start with his racist ass BHJBHDBHKCJW

I mean, damn remmeber how mad Darunia is at Link for being the supposed royal family messenger? Link Unlocking the door to Darunia's room with Zelda's lullaby, I think it's a little funny that Darunia is hung up , you know, like he knows this is some disrespectful shit

Hey wannna hear some shit? The gates at the edge of death mountain aren't guarded by Gorons and were not built by them you can tell, the only way to visit the mountain is to get permission from the King to go up and not from the people that actually live there

God and like, there is something about the way Darunia locks himself in his room, like he does it to keep the ruby safe from all the other Gorons being so hungry that he's frightened they're gonna eat it, he doesn't know what to do on how to act about the Dodongos that Ganondorf summon on him for not giving over that rock. It qlmost sounds like when Ganondorf came in and Threatened Darunia, and that he (Darunia) sent a message to the royal family asking for help, why else would he be expecting someone to come meet with him?

"If I'm not mistaken, you came out here to eat the red stone too! Well, too bad! It's not here! What? That's not why you're here? You're looking for a "Spiritual Stone?" You must mean that delicious-looking red stone that was once displayed above the city! I was so hungry that I thought it would be OK to just give it one tiny, little lick...so I snuck up there. But it was already gone! I think Big Brother took it away. He always says that everyone is after that red stone! Big Brother has shut himself up in his room saying, "I will wait in here for the Royal Family's messenger!" this is a quote from the Goron that you can find on the middle of the rope bridge thing in Goron city.

Yeah so he sent a letter or something and no one answered yeesh.

contrast this all with TP where OH LOOKS WHO'S GUARDING DEATH MOUNTAIN

so in TP spoilers, this happens

Kakariko is more connected then ever! Renado here is wondering what the hell is going on with their FRIENDS. And yeah the Goron elder Gor Coron is trying to keep the last few people from kakariko left safe, and other Gorons, i mean, theyre keeping a piece of the fused shadow in there. also the way that entry into the temple goes in this game is cute, Darunia was freaking it cuz everyone is starving, but here Link wrestles his way up a mountain to ask the Gron elder whats happening since he was asked to come here by Renado, Gor Coron goes DAMN

unless......?

IDK ITS LIKE? ITS SILLY? Idk Hyrule isnt the best place but why try and act like this doesnt happen during TP?

so where am i getting at with this? the hell was going on back during OoT? If things are so odd and weirdly tense with the gates gaurds and non responses

"As time passed, the Triforce became a legend, and the different people of Hyrule forgot the laws and wisdom that the goddesses had left behind. Warfare and strife became common in Hyrule, as the armies of the Zora marched on the Hylians. The Gorons fought the Gerudo. It seemed every race of Hyrule was at the other's throat. Only the secluded Kokiri, sheltered by their magical forest and the Great Deku Tree, were spared the destruction of Hyrule's civil wars.

After 50 years of ceaseless combat, there arose a Hylian King of great wisdom, courage and power. Through his brilliant military campaigns and wise diplomacy, he was able to bring the varied people of Hyrule into a tenuous harmony. Treaties of peace were signed, and prosperity once again seemed to bloom in Hyrule. But no sooner had people declared peace in Hyrule than trouble once again stalked the land."

Tenuous Harmony, could you imagine if they dropped a line like this in Creating a champion? The tumblr side of the fandom would go fucking nuts with that info like OHHHHH SHIT WAS GOING ONNNNNN

This was ALL on the offical Nintendo Zelda website back when oot was the big game out, we have this cuz someone saved it to the wayback, THIS SCREENSHOT WAS FROM DECEMBER 14TH 2001, ABOUT A FULL YEAR AND A DAY UNTIL WIND WAKER WAS RELEASED IN JAPAN. THAT'S INSANE RIGHT???? ‼️‼️🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥

And then it all probably got deleted once wind waker became the new thing!!! Or when they wanted to modernize and deleted it!!! THAT SUCKS RIGHT????

And what's worse is that it introduces some new info and also clarifies something. Hey you know when I made that post like damn Darunia racist as hell

"Warfare and strife became common in Hyrule, as the armies of the Zora marched on the Hylians. The Gorons fought the Gerudo."

NO WHERE IN THE GAME THE LEGEND OF ZELDA OCARINA OF TIME IT SAYS THIS, IT DOES NOT STATE THERE WAS CONFLICT BETWEEN THE GORONS AND GERUDO.....LIKE DIN GET YA KIDS.....IM LOOKING EVERYWHERE FOR SOMETHING I MUST OF MISSED.

But Like oh hey a fucking explanation to why he just fucking says that, I figure it was cuz of Ganondorf trying to almond mom all of them or that he kept talking to the King and well.....Navi already showed the GENERAL reaction to the Gerudo in castle town.

it went from oh hes just racist to dARUNIA AND GANONDORF HAVE HISTORY????

But the interesting one is why did thy Zora "marched on the Hylians."

Like sitting here like, I know a comic made in Germany shouldn't be a be all end all in shit I knew it never was and it would like. If you put this in warrior cats canonicoty categorization would be considered lower down supplementary material dubious canon, but their are things in the comic AND the Himekawa manga that behinds some behind the scenes actions given that LINK'S MOM HAS A MOSTLY CONSISTENT DESIGN WHAT THE HELLLLLLLL. And I always thought the Goron Zora war thing was stupid but Nintendo then had that out on their website, what the hell was going ON.

Because idk i didnt think much of Zora De Bon XVI and the Hyrulien King's relationship but

Now a days the Zelda website is much different and does not have lore pages like this anymore, it's more like a summary of the timeline. But yeah actually Nintendo approved shit, Hylian/Zora war.

Hyrule is progressing, its just going slowly, Hyrule is not AS stifled by its monarchy or a lack of integration during TP because Hyrule IS integrating, is people's are intermingling like is hasn't before during this game.

And this isn't even to get started on the E3 demo of Twilight princess that the trip that Link is supposed to take at the beginning of the game was to be the representative of Ordon at the "Hyrule summit

and Hyrule is described in a VERY specific way

Kingdom of Hyrule and neighboring realms? like theyre all not under the crown? so like???? FUN, that didn't end up making it in the game. the dailouge that is, But the remints is still there in the way the game is made up, like how OoT is built off is civil war bones

actually funny, Navi just got me screenshots of the way the dialouge was changed here

Like stuff clearly changed during the demo and finished game, I should of been touching more on the intricacies of how like shit was just change for no reason sometimes but uh....

But maybe @rawliverandgoronspice would want to one day like about games industry stuff if you ever want to 😭 I know you're super passionate on this and I wish I like even off hand mentioned something about how like TP is also effected by how games are made but I didn't and I'm a fool but games are complicated as hell and that post you made talking a bit about it was fun ya know 👉👈 and the Beta of Tp changes a LOT of stuff, one Rusl really is like a brother to link in the way he messes with him, it actually makes some weird Nintendo licensed shit saying hes like a big brother to Link made WAYYYYY more since with the Beta in mind, but....that also mean they tried to keep the big bro vibes....but then put the dad ones in there too like.....uh...did..someone not change his summary anywhere?

that was my big thing i wanted to talk about, navi's already touched on everything else i just think the parallels here between the Goron quest between OoT and TP changes in such a nice way.

And like this doesn't get into other shit about TP, like if we wanna deep dive into shit ya don't gotta do it by twisting the story, like I was going and talking to @blackautmedia to ask with some help when it came to like.......god idk what i even said anymore i was going a mile a minute. He wants to write his own thing on Twilight princess so im not gonna step on his toes but he has recommended Arabs and Muslims in the Media: Race and Representation after 9/11 by Evelyn Alsultany, the link I provided here is too her website and her page on the book this link here is from her own site that has a pdf of a part American Quarterly with a paper by the same name.

Anyways i wanna reflex for a moment cuz ive been up for hours finishing this because my brain wont stop unless i do. But the thing that by all means started this, was not your reblog linking me and Navi to your essay, or that there is 2 versions i found out where the paper published one had a lot more context to why you wrote your tumblr post the way you did, Navi helped me get the parts that were cut, please realize removing these does not remove the sentiment from the essay, its baked in.

fanfic, its a popular Fan interpretation that there was fighting between the Gerudo and Hylians after Ganondorf was caught trying to take the triforce, but this is not stated to of happened in the lore itself or even has evidence to back it up other then the Implications of Arbiter's grounds theory

UGHHHH AND THIS AGAIN "Twilight Princess Delivers a subtle yet poignant protest against neoliberal discourses of empire reflected in the rhetoric of heroism inform the geopolitical movements of Japan throught the twentieth century"

WHAT ARE YOU FUCKING TALKING ABOUT......

i dont mean this in a stupid ass way, im saying where the hell was about the protest thing, wait i really shouldt take from the published one cuz you actually dumbed down the line for tumblr

anyways again, where, Navi made it clear enough with her own post that, no, the way that Ganondorf is animated has no sympathy for him until the light is literally leaving him. Hell Twilight princess inst very kind to the gerudo either given that the only thing said about them is that they were thieves and nothing more. Like somehow OoT is more empathetic to the Gerudo, it doesn't just call them thieves, it aint great its not even good its just a bad portrayal of a people, and yet somehow OoT is willing to show the Gerudo in a neutral light at points then TP ever did.

but the reason i decided to just throw down a post is cuz i was pissed that you went after Ezlo for reblogging ME and NAVI's posts and purposefully misunderstood their fuckin wind waker post about ZELDA YOUTUBERS

dude you had them getting genuinely harassed by people with 0 reading comprehension that thinks a snarky reply to a tumblr post means its 100% correct. Webbed. Site.

anyways, I hope people don't take this as a right or wrong way to interpret a piece of work, as stated before, I read your essay, navi read your essay, you changed parts of Twilight Princess to get to the conclusion of you paper...And im gonna be real but it's kinda crazy that you're using post colonial melancholia for this when it's got some.....well something like idk i need someone to do a full ass review because there are point where i gently raise an eyebrow im gonna be real. but also like

like how do you read his book and then miss out on this, one of your whole big aruments is that hyrule is stagnate and not multi cultural and i had to grab screenshots and Navi had to get shit from the game.

like damn, do yall ever uh feel a strange sadness when dusk falls? i do. Idk this is one of the first and last times Nintendo ever delt with Ganondorf with some form a sympathy for him, cuz we got the dragon explosion in totk its like oh he's turbo evil now and he exploded you exploded him and yet the Gerudo probably still gotta pay for his shit from a billion years ago anyways idk idk idk pot shots at totk again.

I know you dug around a little for that post, and I understand from the numerous people that dmed me about that, you probably went on making an essay on their post so you could sound smart again.

And to be clear, I was told to drop some shit i was about to say about you because no one wants to start fandom drama, neither do I truly and any jab on the post itself would just be rude. people change and some people only learn to shut the hell up, so we'll keep it at that. I just hope you really don't truly recognize some of these people you started shit with.

So yeah tldr, uh.....idk, im going in for an autism screening in a month

also me watching the ending to windwaker cuz i wanted to say something about stong endings TP fans im sorry But Wind waker's ending hits no matter what best sequal to OoT thats isnt Majora's mask

The History of Light and Shadow

At the end of Twilight Princess, Ganondorf delivers one of his most memorable lines, “The history of light and shadow will be written in blood.” He is not wrong. As the player has witnessed over the course of Link’s adventure, Hyrule is haunted by ruins and ghost towns, a mere shadow of what it once was. The landscape is filled with numerous sites of past violence and empty spaces visibly marked by decay and wasted potential.

When Zelda tells Link and Midna that “these dark times are the result of our deeds,” she is referring to specific historical acts of imperialistic aggression. Hyrule established hegemony over its outlying territories by crushing the rebellions against its advances, but the kingdom has suffered from cultural stagnation as a result. Without the dynamic diversity symbolized by Ganondorf, Hyrule finds itself in economic and political decline, isolated from any contact with the world beyond its shrinking borders.

As a representative of a marginalized group of people who have been attacked and driven from their homes, Ganondorf is a tangible manifestation of the horrors of imperialism. He must be defeated, but doing so does not address the underlying problems that have resulted in Hyrule’s decline. I therefore want to argue that Twilight Princess uses Ganondorf to deliver a subtle yet poignant protest against the discourses of empire reflected by the dualistic “light and shadow” rhetoric of heroism that has resulted in tragedy and regret.

Keep reading

#oughhhhhh #oghhnkn eepy time yeah never agian #i have a whole thing about the triforce i wanted to say all this shit because of corruption and power but im so tired and ucked up what if #draw like crazy tomorrow or something like oh hbhbgb but uhhhhhh anyways anyways #now that i dont ffeel like i goot wAIT THE CHAINS BREAKING MAMA DIDNT RAISE A QUITTER #but like idk i dont like fightig or anything online i was just so??????????????? when Ezlo got hit for no reason like hi dont do that they #werent apart of this like #idk maybe im just a little venomus rn too but i also uh....would not be mkaing repeat posts where you wax academic about post colonial #ghosts but can reblog more then 8 posts for palestine in over a year??? like thats mean to say but with the context of Ori....#yeesh #idk bad look. there are real people to care about and this is why i dont wanna do internet discourse no more #its just stupid as hell and i have become SOOOOO normal #god lets hope i didnt eave lose ends i look ill rn ive been up over uh..........36 hours for some ungodley reason #wasnt even writing this the whole time i was clotecting eggs and laying down some diatematious earth for these birds #oh and then i get like.....IM GONN DRAW GANONDORF #I GOT AN ASK ABOUT HIM AND HES BEEN ROTATING IN MY HEAAADDDDDD #OOOOOOOO DORFFYDOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO #Anyways back to my shit i will hopefull never be this mean again because its fucking exausting #but like bunch of dudes in your dms like LOOK AT THIS and you go oh YEESH i am so sorry i was a teen when that happened #well anyways im gonna be doing my little tasks and stuff tomorrow cuz #AS I SAID THE CHAINS! I CAN FINALLY KRILL MYSELF (srimp dinner)#one of these days i need to designn this fursona i have in my head and post it #i got so many things to dooooooooo and yet #alright well that was a waste of time #maybe ill come back to this and point at myself like you should of grabbed sunset perril by the throat about the wold cock thing #okay it was average it wasnt even Terato i wanted to SCREAM #this is not normal right? dude come on get weird with that shit #oh shit i should play bloodborne agAIN WAIT IS ELDENRING CO OP A THING #oh i would FUCK SO SEVERLY IN THERE #I May get webfishing soon but after i do some stuff

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lemonhemlock · 9 months ago

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it's amusing to me how ppl will try to criticise alicent's "where is duty, where is scarifice" by saying it's just her demanding why rhaenyra doesn't "submit to men", "scarifice her happiness", "give up her bodily autonomy" blah blah blah.

there is such a smugness and it's made worse by their security in them thinking this defense of rhaenyra is flawless."

submit to men". im not even going to deign to respond by pointing out all the ways which shows this simply isn't true or at least challengeable for alicent, but in the context of rhaenyra....its questionable because who made rhaenyra his heir in the first place? quickly. her father. rhaenyra "submits" to viserys' will by accepting his decision to name her princess of dragonstone. obviously she's only 14 then but it's a decision she continues to, using their language, "submit" to well into her adult life. of course, you could say that rhaenyra wants the throne anyway and that's fair but rhaenyra's own wants/needs are still ultimately irrelevant. they just happen to align with viserys' own wishes that stem from his powerful guilt over aemma and his conviction that he misread his "prophecy" wrong. it's because of these factors that one can find it really questionable that viserys would have listened to rhaenyra if she asked him to change the succession. what's more important, his daughter's happiness, or his need to redeem himself through her? im comfortable saying this because viserys at his core seems allergic doing right by his kids.another way it's questionable because again who is the final "authority" on rhaenyra's sons? quickly. her dad. rhaenyra's word by itself isn't good enough, she still has to submit to viserys' will through getting his protection.

"scarifice her happiness". mind you rhaenyra calls her own life a "droll tragedy". how great could that "happiness" (harwin) have been then? it's also very clear that harwin was never going to be enough for rhaenyra.

"bodily autonomy" I mean, I wish they kept this energy for alicent. but they don't. alicent's line to viserys "to have one child like that is a mistake" is also really interesting to me concerning this whole subject because it suggests that alicent would have been sympathetic to rhaenyra if she had been honest from the very start with jace's birth. but she doesn't and she ends up lying again and again. obviously rhaenyra lying about such a matter is going to be a huge trigger for someone like alicent whose father was removed from his position partly because of rhaenyra lying or not being wholly truthful.

sorry for the long post!

Hi there! I think there's a lot of naff defence of Rhaenyra and hypocrisy towards Alicent in TB's discourse, but, by now, there are a wealth of critical posts available that highlight these discrepancies and, if they don't pose any interest to them, we kind of, at some point, have to let bygones and be bygones and leave them to their little bubble. They can educate themselves from many sources now; it's not like when the show first aired and the meta was dominated by TB content. But if they don't want to engage in good faith arguing, then there's not much point in getting worked up about it. IMO a lot of these posters skew on the younger side, have a rather primitive view of feminism and rely heavily on anachronism, so girlboss pew pew is appealing to them. Maybe they'll grow out of it, maybe not, but we can't be educators for everybody.

That being said, onto the points you highlighted. I think I agree the most with "sacrifice her happiness", because Rhaenyra had all the options in the world for a husband, but she didn't take any of it seriously and exhausted everyone's goodwill after a ton of resources were wasted on her marriage audition tour for nothing,* until Viserys got tired of her tomfoolery and forced her to marry a closeted gay man. This is where a point about bodily autonomy can also be made, because Rhaenyra could have very well married Harwin (who was in her social sphere), had she taken any of this seriously.

*think of the cost of transporting her and hosting so many suitors under one roof - some of the bill being footed by the lords who were hosting her. Perhaps Lord Baratheon had better use of his time and money than organizing Rhaenyra's engagement contest. And you can bet she didn't just leech off of him, she must have visited other castles as well, since she is said to have been gone for several weeks (? can't remember). And all for what? It's very disrespectful.

I do have some sympathy for her because it's a lot to ask a 15(?)-year-old to start seriously considering marriage proposals, when that's probably the last thing she is interested in. And it is normal for teenagers to be immature. But there's got to be some give-and-take here. Rhaenyra can't both be the nominal heir and future queen, entrusted with more power than anyone else in the kingdom, and not heed any of her responsibilities. It is a position that comes with sacrifices and responsibilities; it's part of the job description. Making a politically-advantageous marriage is one of those compromises. Acknowledging that is not anti-feminist lol. God forbid kings and queens can't just do whatever the hell they want all the time.

And Rhaenyra is presented with choices: at no point does she refuse Viserys' offer to name her heir. He straight-up tells her at one point: choose a husband or I will name Aegon instead. She could have very well said "You know what, I didn't really think about what this would entail when you nominated me in the first place and now I kind of realise this is not for me. I don't really want to get married and I'm not particularly inclined towards politics either, so can we find some kind of alternative arrangement here?" Does she? No!

She doesn't want to run away with Criston and eat oranges either. Fair enough, but then you kind of have to move your butt and work towards securing your position as heir to the throne. Does she do that instead? No, lol. She's the definition of eating one's cake and having it too. In ep. 7 she bemoans to Viserys "I thought I wanted it" (i.e. the throne). So she does want it!

As far as her just going along with whatever Viserys wants, I am going to be generous again and say that I get she doesn't really want to disappoint her father and appear diminished in front of him, cool, but at some point you have to start taking responsibility for yourself and not just explain everything away resorting to your shitty childhood and relationship with your parents. And Rhaenyra never does. Especially when the stakes are this high. We're talking about the possibility of civil war here. It's very laissez-faire to the point of irresponsibility to just "go along" with this, in spite of succession laws, when you know people are going to be opposing your shaky claim, if you don't really want the throne deep down and are just half-arsing it.

And Rhaenyra can't blame it all on the follies of youth either. Because there is a time when she is a mature woman with three illegitimate children under her belt, not really putting in the work to diplomatically advance herself, being rude to people at court and just interested in her love affair and doing whatever she wants. But, by that time, Alicent had already produced 4 children, so Rhaenyra could have just noped out of this situation, if she considered it so shitty, and conceded to Aegon. Viserys by then was old and weak, he wouldn't have really put much of a fight if that's what she truly wanted. She could have lived her life as a very rich, privileged lady, but instead she chose to escalate and marry Daemon. And, no, the greens would not have killed Rhaenyra and her bastard children, not because of the kindness of their hearts, but because Rhaenyra's claim is comically weak and would not be taken seriously by any medieval historian, let alone by a person actually living in those times.

So this is where I wrap it up with the "submitting to men" argument. I don't think it's necessarily accurate to categorise Rhaenyra accepting Viserys' decision to name her heir as going against her will, because she is known to want the throne. What I think is more relevant here is to consider that Alicent is in a much more powerless position than Rhaenyra and doesn't really have much of a choice when it comes to defying men. Alicent is the daughter of a second son and she doesn't have a dragon soul-bonded to her who can roast people who annoy her. I think it quite trite to be "angry" with her (lol she's not real) that she has the (normal) coping mechanisms that she has and is not magically transformed into a rebel Lagertha figure who does whatever she wants and takes no shit from anyone.

However, I don't see the solution as Rhaenyra "submitting to men" either. I think that's a misrepresentation of the green stance (although I'm sure there certainly are green-aligned posters that skew more towards the Kinder-Kuche-Kirchen disposition). On my part, I don't see Rhaenyra respecting the basic law of the land as her submitting to men. Kings have to follow succession laws to acquire the throne, too, and then produce legitimate children to succeed them. Of course the law is meant to favour men, but not once does Rhaenyra do anything to further the cause of women in Westeros, only to further herself. She wants to be Queen, but it has to be served on a platter to her and she is not interested in putting any work in. She's not interested in the plight of bastards in Westeros, as long as her own bastards get comfy seats. At one point you have at least concede that she's mainly on a one-woman mission for her selfishness. And anyone is welcome to like her exactly as she is! She doesn't have to be morally pure to have fans.

But there comes a time when, after appraising the inequalities of the world, you also have to adjust your own behaviour so that you won't end up causing more harm in your quest to advance your own interests. You have to find a balance between your desire for absolute freedom and reforms that are achievable, because some progress is always better than no progress.

Some of this stuff is really complicated, like how can you integrate bastards in the inheritance process when most of the wealth is acquired via land and you live in a society in which people of means turn marriages into economic alliances, with vested interests in passing down that wealth to children related to both parents? The short answer is that you have to diversify the sources of wealth, but, for that, you need technological advancement, the rise of the middle class and, ultimately, to dismantle feudalism. Could Rhaenyra have accomplished this during her reign? No. Could anyone? Absolutely not. These are historical developments that happen gradually, over a great span of time, so the best any decision-maker could do is introduce incremental reforms that can help speed up this process, increase literacy rates* (you cannot become free if you cannot read) and, yes, tumblr is going to hate this, but engage in harm reduction - basically don't become part of the problem or an active vector of destabilisation.

That is wisdom that Rhaenyra never comes to possess. And, to cut her some slack again, this is truly visionary stuff, like very few people would be able to be so politically avant-garde. But, at the very least, Rhaenyra could have engaged in harm-reduction. And it's pretty insincere or misguided of TB to reduce this resolution to just "submitting to men".

*But can you even? You'd need to invent the printing press for this. See my mentioning the need to technological advancement.

#this got way longer than i wanted it to be #ask #alicenttully #anti rhaenyra targaryen #also i think with this i've kind of exhausted the possible rhaenyra criticism #what more is there to say :))

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yinyuedijun · 8 months ago

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hii I’m the anon who requested for the bluebird post!

Im so sorry to hear about the discourse surrounding it, I had absolutely no idea. It’s definitely one of the best works out there. I appreciate it really so much. All my friends are tired of me talking about it so much and everytime I pass a can of spam in the grocery store, I stop and grieve.

I understand that you might feel burned out from all the discourse and hate (which I don’t understand why it exists in the first place?) but I just wanted to let you know if u ever decide to pick it up again, I’d be here waiting for quite literally forever. I read it almost half a year ago on ao3, so I suppose I can live off the crumbs.

I am just so fascinated and impressed by how you write the whole deal about the aftermath of the Gun devil attack. The gymnasium, the rations, the orphanage, the caseworkers?? It is so detail that it quite literally blows my mind. I genuinely can’t put in words how much I love it.

So please if you do ever end up working on it, please let me know. In the meantime, I’ll be waiting and refreshing your blog ever so often for a silver of hope.

Do you mind reblogging the chapter 1 too? :( I have searched high and low for it.

Big fan of bluebird and your love for aki <3

Thank you so much! Lots of love :3

OHHH ANON T_T this is the sweetest message ever, thank you!!! not the spam in the grocery store gdldhaksuaja I'm sorry for ruining your shopping trips 💔 it actually means a lot to me that after so much time, you still remember so many details about the fic LOL and now I do feel kind of wistful about it!!! because I really enjoyed working on all that world building!! It makes me happy to know that it left such a lasting impression on you 🥺💗

the discourse was so silly, it wasn't over bluebird specifically but just over dark content as a whole, which I have since gone back to writing anyway because I have deranged writing tendencies and I'm a glutton for punishment 💀 I guess I could just post chapter three this weekend since it's already written and I've been saying I would anyway. a lot of it is SUPER awkward because they're teenagers (lol), but I promise that toward the end it returns to that sweet traumatic worldbuilding 🫡 SO I'll try to get that up if I survive the work week!!

thanks so much for sending this msg 🫶 I reblogged chapter one earlier today also, hope you enjoy!! sending you love!!!! 💖💖💖

#yueshuo.asks #asks.bluebird anon #<- should u ever choose to return ...

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reineyday · 2 years ago

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this is kind of a long, long, loooooong wandering rant lol soz. i promise it's not mean, it's mostly just critical thinking brain vomit/actual essay and the fatigue that comes from being a billy fan, bc like, no. not end of story. yes, his abuse doesnt justify his violent actions and racism, but his being racist doesnt make his other layers less valid or worth exploring--and it's not a moral failure to like billy anyways.

maybe this will just be a tangential reply bc op's post mostly just proves he's racist and then pronounces him "not a good guy", and their post is just generally saying "hey billy has layers but remember that he's racist," which is a good reminder. but, though this probably wasnt on purpose, the post kind of ends with a subtle implication that his being racist and not a good guy means there's something to watch out for in his character, and it is therefore morally questionable if not downright unethical to like him, and that implication would be wrong.

most of what im about to talk about is the same thing op is saying but from the pro-billy side of the fence, and like the previous reblog, but more explicitly and with more favour to billy, im also re-affirming that you can acknowledge he's terrible/has done bad things and still like him. besides, they didnt write him to be an outright villain, as much as they might insist it now. like op said, he's not a good guy--but he's not all bad either. (the ST fandom should look more into the concept of anti-heroes.)

i do appreciate your good faith take on billy, even if you landed on not liking him. nowadays i land on just the writing in general being bad, bc not only did they handle billy's racism badly but throughout the show, racism in general has just kind of been indicated and implied before eventually being completely looked over/ignored and lucas doesnt deserve that. honestly the way they had jason pull a gun on lucas and erica tackled to the ground in the latest season was horrifying, and it didnt get addressed at all.

they also, however, handle the fact that billy was abused badly.

abuse is never cut and dry. they wanted billy to be the human villain, and he antagonizes and torments our main characters, but they also give us an explanation for why he might be that way, and then they give him a completely sympathetic role in s3. he was controlled against his will, had no power, got possessed; we find out he's been abused by his father since he was a child, left in an abusive household by his father... eventually he breaks the possession to save el's life. we see him completely break down in the sauna. he dies apologizing to max.

does this "redeem" him? narratively the pieces are there (as in, usually, dying for the main character is a redemption trope), but it doesnt address where his faults were (being aggressive, tormenting max, his racist actions toward lucas, beating up steve) and we dont see him doing any work to rectify all that, so he doesnt feel redeemed.

but they dont really explore his background enough for viewers to really feel bad for him, unless theyre viewers that relate to his upbringing personally. they just give us these two pieces: 1) billy is an asshole, and 2) his home life sucks, and then we as viewers are just supposed to do something more with that. the show doesnt actually land anywhere regarding his abuse and his assholery, we just see that it happens, and then we see him get overpowered and controlled by an interdimensional monster, instead of just by his father. and then he dies saving el's life. it doesnt say anything about his character arc and nothing billy does as himself, good or bad, actually gets addressed.

the thing is, they put him into a villain role, made him sympathetic, and then everyone started treating his character like you can only view him in black and white when they didnt even write him that way. dacre approached billy with his own personal experience and knowledge that people arent bad for no reason, and it shows. caleb says billy's actions were racially motivated and it sure seems that way, and that's valid too bc if someone seems to target you specifically then you defend yourself. both of these things can be true.

in fandom spaces it always seems like defending billy automatically conflates you with being racist, but if you say "billy was racist and violent so he's a bad person" then it feels like you're just coldly ignoring the fact that he is a newly graduated teenager that still lives with his abuser. but you can have them both. they are not mutually exclusive! and it doesnt make you a bad person, or racist, to understand this and sympathize with billy anyways.

you say "we HAVE to think critically about the characters we like" and yes, yes i have. he isnt a good guy. his abuse doesnt excuse his bigotry and violence. it doesnt change the fact that he has been abused and there will be viewers who see themselves in him, who remember being like him--or mb they just like him without any personal relatable reasons at all. yet they get harrassed online for liking him just because of the other shit he's done.

im not excusing him by saying that. im just liking him anyways, and it doesnt make me a bad person--the way so many antis seem to believe--because at the end of the day, billy is a fictional character. he's not some racist guy i know that harrasses middle schoolers, he's a character that i like in a show, for one reason or another, and i have examined his character motivations back to front (which shouldnt have to be mandatory for a piece of media that serves as escapism btw) and decided i like digging into who he is.

as much as yall wanna believe it, he isnt a flat, racist villain. thinking critically about him means having to acknowledge all the stuff that makes him a more dimensional character.

okay, now im gonna digress a little more.

if we're talking about critical thinking, im also gonna point out that a kid that grows up under the fist of a bigoted man is going to turn out bigoted too, unless he has other major influences in his life (which billy doesnt). again, he still lives with his abuser. you think he's had any space at all to learn differently? you think he was safe at home if he was seen associating with people his dad deemed the "wrong" sort? this is why that passage from runaway max includes billy, but in em dashes. she says, "and billy, i guess", because billy has inherited those views. max attaches him to this passage as an afterthought, she says "i guess", bc she recognizes, living in that household with them, that it's in his best interest, and safety, to have those kinds of opinions. does he really believe them though, or is it just part of the persona he takes up to feel in control, to have power, to feel safer? is there even a difference anymore? that's up to you as a viewer, as a fic-writer, to dig into that (if youd like to).

also: i personally have made racist assumptions all by myself just bc of the society that surrounds me, the lack of representation on my screens, the views my parents had that they got from their parents that they never realized were a little bigoted. i inherited that all by accident, but i was in a safe space and in a culture that encouraged education and acceptance, so i know better now. imagine having a different opinion from your father and getting beaten up for it. of course he's bigoted, but does he know better not to be? does he get a good opportunity not to be, a safe place to explore different opinions from his dad, even though he has no other important adult figures in his life? (i dont count susan bc she married neil. sure max has differing opinions, but clearly susan doesnt care enough to not marry neil, and she stands by while billy gets pushed around, so any opinions she might have wouldnt influence billy.)

this is actually the reason i disagree that 17-18 is old enough to recognize how not to perpetuate abuse. it's hard to learn something if you have no good examples in front of you and no place to practice, and it's definitely the same with abuse. even worse because he still lives with neil, so it's still happening. it doesnt seem like billy's had any good opportunities to practice being kinder, and any opportunity he had with max was squandered the second she started being a method of control for billy. to neil, max is a tool to get billy in line, a way to ensure he's being respectful and responsible. it's fucked up, but why would you try to reach out to someone who has so much power over you, even if she doesnt realize it? why would he believe he'd be anything other than abandoned by her, or that she wouldnt use her power over him with neil to manipulate him, with the parents he has? 17-18 is young and so very malleable, in a way you cant comprehend until you're in your later twenties, and your shoulders will not loosen up enough to learn something different until you get away from your abuser, even if you do have outside support.

also i think the people who argue that billy could have reached out to max and forge a relationship the same way jonathan has will misunderstands the difference between growing up with a kid sibling, under at least one parent who treats you kindly and probably encourages your relationship, versus having a kid sibling forced upon you, in a household (neil) that already hates you, and then seeing that sibling be used as the stick in your already shitty relationship with your father. jonathan and will are built-in brothers, already and automatically united (with joyce) under lonnie's harsh treatment; billy was stuck, alone, under a father that forced him to "man up", and then introduced a little sister into their dynamic and used her to leash his freedom. the solidarity culture within their houses is wildly different, so it's absolutely not the same. also, after suffering at his father's hand, i dont think billy would want to earnestly reach out without wondering/fearing if it would make him look like less of a man for doing it.

but anyways, sure, you can argue that he honestly just is racist, no ands, ifs or buts. except that's just one take, and you cant actually prove that he's maliciously and consistently bigoted, that it's what he would be inclined to believe and act on away from his father, based off one instance of a racially charged assault & comments. 100p not okay, but with his upbringing, id say there's more leeway than you think (leeway in the degree to which billy would be inclined to change/whether or not he's genuinely bigoted; obviously there shouldnt be any leeway in holding him accountable for his actions). id even argue, with the way he stepped in front of el and apologized to max, that there's something there that would lead him to be a better person, if given the safe space and education to explore that.

you're allowed to view him as a racist character, to see his violence and stop at that. god, in real life, you should--safety first, protect yourself. but since he's fictional, you dont need to, and im just real tired of people acting like billy stans are bad people or that theyre "excusing" racism by liking him.

and may i point out that that screenshot of caleb has him saying "his character billy is amazing, but billy isnt really a great guy." everyone points to caleb saying "billy's racist" as some sort of be-all end-all argument for how this confirms billy's racism and therefore you're bad for liking him, but even caleb has said billy's character is a good one (amazing, even). as in, he's interesting narratively. he has things to dig into. billy may be racist--at the very best, he's done and said racist things--but he's not a racist caricature and that makes a difference.

lastly, just to continue on with the other stuff caleb said in that screenshot: maybe jason himself wasnt racist (tho i feel like it's totally possible for him to be one of those racists that are accepting of poc but only if they're "the good kind" ie. middle-class or higher, plays team sports, doesnt play satanic games like dnd... 🤷🏻‍♀️ we dont see him w enough other people to really know imo), but it doesnt change the fact that we as viewers were pulled out of a supernatural conflict to see a black kid facing down a gun, which is a very real conflict. this is something ive seen, multiple times, in the news. this is what i meant by the writing being bad. caleb's right, people havent acknowledged the racism in s1, and the writers made billy sympathetic in s3 without addressing the way he treated lucas in s2, and now in s4, we see him at the end of a gun. no one talks about this! the show doesnt do anything about it! racism isnt a proper conflict in the show, but they keep trying to hint at it anyways and as a result, it doesnt land anywhere productive.

they do that with billy's abuse too: we see the pieces of billy getting abused by his father, but then in s4, max just says "he couldnt do it without you so he left hawkins." no acknowledgement that his dad was shitty (and actually a pretty big implication that she truly didnt see and/or understand the depth and length of control neil had over billy). max gets tormented by billy and then she threatens him back with the nail bat after sedating him, like that isnt contributing to the power dynamics in their household. yes, billy tormented her, but her retaliation means she's now become someone else that's used violence to control billy--it was a valid reaction to the way she and her friends have been treated, but that doesnt take away from the fact that she's been (perhaps unknowingly) a part of the hargrove cycle of abuse as a victim, and now she's fought back and gained some power. that would have changed things between billy and max, but we dont see the result, aside from the way max seems to approach billy with a lighter heart in s3 and is genuinely concerned about him at the sauna and when he dies.

not to mention lucas opening up about patrick's domestic abuse and max sitting by totally silently even though she's lived with neil and billy (which could be another implication she was underinformed/left out of the loop in the overarching power dynamics of her household), or the way chrissy's implied to have an emotionally manipulative mother and they just kill her off without exploring that further. the writers are just bad at writing it, but fans of billy are the ones getting flack for liking him because his fans choose to focus on and explore other aspects of his character instead of letting his racism make him a flat villain.

you say "billy is racist, end of story" but no, it isnt. that's like saying "steve is homophobic" based on that one time he called jonathan a queer derogatorily, and then overlooking his four seasons of character growth and his best friendship with robin. yeah, it was written badly, but billy saved el's life, he's tried to protect his mother from neil's abuse in his past, and he has reasons for being the way he is. antis are valid for just seeing the racism and moving on, but his fans are also completely valid for liking him, for whatever reason, and it's short-sighted and narrow-minded to assume that they havent thought critically about his character and just decided to like him anyways. furthermore, your fictional preferences shouldnt have to reflect your personal real-life morals anyways, bc otherwise we should all be really worried about the amount of people who love serial killing characters.

anyways, this wasnt the initial point of op's post but it always feels like it boils down to this when it comes to billy discourse so im just gonna say it: i dont like billy because he's racist, and it doesnt make me racist to like him. i like him because he's an interesting character with a lot of different story beats to explore. yeah, that includes his racism, mostly because i like reading about him learning not to be. it's also important to remember that while racist actions are reprehensible, unfortunately they dont always come from malicious racists (micro-aggressions, anyone? subconscious racial bias? yeah). bc of billy's abuse, i feel like an argument can be made that he can fall into that category (see: this entire post lmao).

anyways, sorry for going off. i hope this doesnt come off rude bc i wasnt trying to be, and if you feel insulted then im sorry bc im writing this as a genuine response, as rambling as it is. i really do appreciate your good faith take and im glad you landed where you landed. you dont need to like him. but at the end of the day, "proving" his racism doesnt take away from the fact that he's been abused. theyre connected issues. from that passage in runaway max, it's apparently clearer in the book than in the show. like i said, caleb's right in saying billy was racist toward him, but dacre's right too in approaching billy from the angle that bad people arent bad for no reason, and i applaud him for trying to show us with billy that cycles of abuse are messy, that victims of abuse can abuse other people and it will never be clear-cut because they are still victims themselves.

yes, you cant ignore that billy's actions toward lucas are racist and that he's abusive toward max, but you also cant ignore that even as he torments others, he is still a victim. both these things are true. that's not excusing anything, that's just seeing the bigger picture. that's thinking critically. after understanding this, you can individually decide how that lands for you. (for me and other billy fans, we land on empathy toward billy; for antis they land on empathy toward lucas and max, but we're both right yall.) billy's racism doesnt make his character any less dimensional or interesting--it only gives fic writers more meat to work with when they make him scream and cry about how difficult it is to make things square with his sister and her friends (and steve).

to be clear: im not saying he wasnt racist in the way he treated lucas, bc he was. im saying that i think there's a good chance he would want to be better and to rectify his actions, if he had a support system and safety, because he might not actually want to be racist--he just might think that he, and everyone else under neil's roof, has to be. or, given some distance, he might be able to realize how like neil he's become and want to separate himself from that. we'll never know bc he died, but the possibilities are there bc of the sympathetic aspects of his character that we see in canon, and that's enough for me to want to explore that further, alongside how he treated lucas. im not excusing that racism or ignoring it, im just looking at his other layers and including his racism as part of the whole package. that's how you treat him dimensionally.

you dont have to make that argument though. it is very easy to just see his racist actions, call him racist, and move on--and you would be right to do so as well. it's just that i like reading about him finding support, understanding his wrongs, and then apologizing to lucas and making good with max (and steve lol). billy is a character that isnt kind, but there's enough evidence in canon to say that this might be because he's never seen any kindness in his life from people he can trust; so what if i like to read about him getting some kindness for once? furthermore, we've seen him try to protect someone as a child, and he died protecting someone else; is it truly so farfetched that he wouldnt want to be better, if given a proper chance?

I’m going to give you my very best attempt at a nuanced take of Billy Hargrove because I have seen a lot of posts recently and I think it’s important to talk about. TL/DR at the end

I’ll agree with the pro Billy blogs on this—the Billy and Karen thing was gross. That was uncomfortable, and you know a lot of people that are cool with it would react very differently if Billy was a teenage girl and Karen was an older man

I also think the attempt at a redemption arc was bullshit—and I think it could have been done better. The whole marauder thing where a character sacrifices themselves in a split second decision isn’t redemption. It’s a cop out choice to make you feel sympathy for characters that are frankly pretty shitty. However, had Billy put in the work and effort to treat Max, Lucas, and everyone else with even a modicum more kindness, I do think he could have been a more likable character.

Now onto narratives of abuse

I’ve seen arguments that Billy and Jonathan differ because Billy had no support system—but I think it’s not quite that black and white. Consider for a moment that yes, Jonathan has a support system, but it is weaker than y’all like to admit. It’s clear Joyce will do anything for her kids—however, the Byers family is poor, and Joyce is obviously working a lot, in at least the first three seasons. The fact that Joyce isn’t around is half the reason Will goes missing in the first place. A semi “absent” (for lack of a better word) mother is not much of a support system. Neither is an eleven year old child. Billy does lack for a support system, but that is not entirely from outside forces. Billy could have made the decision to be kind to Max, who is old enough to understand abuse and be somewhat supportive, and the two could have been a support system for each other. Billy also could have attempted to make friends, and in turn, create a support system for himself. In fact, in the show, Billy is shown being semi-friendly to the basketball team and at the party. It’s unclear whether he made any actual friends, but he had the ability to do so

That said, it’s understandable why Billy was angry, when he had little support and was being abused

HOWEVER, Billy being a victim of abuse does not justify the way he turns his anger on others. Saying that he’s just angry and aggressive because of his abuse, and that people “just don’t like it when abuse victims adopt unhealthy coping mechanisms” is just not correct. Sometimes victims adopt unhealthy mechanisms, that’s true—BUT that in no way excuses turning anger and violence onto other people. It’s an argument that to me is very reminiscent of “well I have a bad past and so I’m mean and I don’t have to change.” (For lack of better wording.) It does not matter how bad your past is, you don’t get to use that as justification for your own violence against others. And Billy is violent to others. The way he grabs Max’s wrist, the way he constantly talks down to her and tries to control her, these are abusive. Even clearer is when he almost hits Max’s friends with his car. The ONLY reason he did not was because Max turned the wheel at the last moment. Consider also the way he tried to harm Lucas—which is something else entirely

I’ve also seen arguments that Billy is, in essence, a child. I would argue that he is not. Yes, he’s 17-18 in the show, but that is an age at which he is old enough to be intelligent about his behavior and to learn coping mechanisms that would not harm Max and perpetuate the cycle of abuse. He is old enough to react maturely—and not hitting or verbally abusing his little sister isn’t even a choice I think we should have to call mature in the first place.

In regards to Lucas, I have seen very few Billy blogs acknowledge Billy’s racism. Those that do tend to cite Dacre Montgomery himself, in this interview

But again, HOWEVER, Dacre is one actor. Actors’ takes on their characters are important, yes, but one man’s argument does not outweigh several other people, including the Duffer Brothers themselves and Caleb McLaughlin. In the very same interview, Dacre admits that the script originally contained a slur, and was removed because he would not say it. That is Dacre—not Billy

The Stranger Things fandom at large has beef with the Duffers—this much is true. We like to pick and choose aspects of what they say. However, they are still the creators of the show, and with contextual evidence AND their word, it’s hard to argue against Billy’s racism. From an interview with The Vulture

I will also add a side note about Runaway Max. While not 100% canon, the book is official and does take context from the show itself. This is a weaker piece of evidence, but it adds up. In particular, I think it’s important to acknowledge the “people like that” line, given how Billy responds to Lucas in the show

The most important opinion of all, however, is that of Caleb McLaughlin. In matters of racism, the opinions and voices that matter most are those of actual POC. Caleb himself calls Billy’s behavior racially motivated

If you really “read between the lines” in the show, the evidence is there too. Lucas is not the only one of the boys that hangs out with Max. Billy does see Max’s other friends. The only boy he has a problem with is Lucas—and the one defining trait that Billy would notice is Lucas’s skin color. See also the fight at the Byers house. The very first person Billy even thinks to target is again Lucas Sinclair

Billy is also canonically misogynist. Calling women cows is not indicative of a leftist feminist icon. He is shown to have an attitude that women are inferior. There’s more to say on this, but this has gotten quite long already, and I think I’ve made my point

TL/DR: Billy is justified in his anger, and his quote “redemption” could have been done better. Yes, the Karen and Billy thing was gross. HOWEVER, contextual evidence and interviews with the Duffers and Caleb prove that Billy is racist. Analysis of the show proves his abusive behavior and misogyny. No character is a monolith, and characters have layers—but we HAVE to think critically about the characters we like. You can’t just erase cornerstone aspects of characters like Billy. He isn’t a good guy. His abuse doesn’t excuse his bigotry and violence. End of story.

#long post #discourse #fandom wank #fandom discourse #rei rambles #billy hargrove #stranger things #do u think if steve died at the end of s1 from the demogorgan that he's get the billy treatment by fans??#he's a mysoginist. calls nancy a slut. breaks jonathan's camera and calls him queer. goes to apologize and then dies.#do u think ppl would have been like 'actually ur a terrible person for liking steve' just cuz he never got a chance to develop #do u think.#also did u know ag/atha chr/istie was racist. my friend told me that if u read her books u can tell.#u gonna tell me that liking her books makes me racist?#j/kr is a terf and she sucks but having liked ha/rry po/tter doesnt mean youre retroactively racist or anything.#sorry i mean transphobic. but ye liking it doesnt make u transphobic. it's the contributing financially that's bad.#this is how u think critically. the argument isnt whether or not billy's racist.#many billy fans wouldnt disagree with you. the argument is actually 'why do u think him being racist make you morally #superior for hating him?' and 'why does this give antis the right to harrass billy fans on their posts?'#THAT'S the argument.#yeah just. real tired of antis being like 'his abuse doesnt excuse his racism'#and then his fans having to be like 'his racism doesnt make him any less abused'#theyre connected oh my god pls. please.#'we wanted to be honest about what an interracial relationship would do' i just dont think they succeeded :/#also that quite from bo/jack only sorta kinda applies to billy in that bo is like. in his fifties.#billy is STILL a kid. he's still getting *out* of all the shitty things that's happened to him in his past.#he hasnt even lived two decades.#billy has not had enough time away from his abuser to properly reckon with the consequences of his actions #anyways tl;dr im not justifying any of his actions. im just saying i like him anyways and it doesnt make me a bad person to like him #critical thinking means being able to separate your morals from fiction #i personally think his racism is a product of his abuse and so i find it easier to forgive narratively (where i wouldnt irl)

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