#anti obi wan show

[jedimasterbailey]

SPOILERS IF YOU HAVE NOT WATCHED THE THIRD EPISODE OF AHSOKA

PRO JEDI RANT DOWN BELOW

This Loth Cat is a good representation of me not losing my mind on how badly the Jedi Order is being completely defiled by Feloni. Okay…so apparently according to Feloni anybody can just be a Jedi if they try really, really hard and believe in them because the Force resides in everyone when we all know that that’s not fucking true according to Lucas. Yes, the Force resides in all things HOWEVER it is the Force sensitive (I.e. the Jedi and Sith) that are able to wield the Force because they’ve got the blood to do so (midocholorians… I’m sure I’ve butchered the spelling forgive me). So with that being said, does anything in Star Wars even matter anymore? Like honestly.

By this logic…anybody in the OT could have just destroyed the Sith if they tRiEd HaRd EnOuGh. So I guess fuck the importance of Luke Skywalker and all the other survivors of Order 66? And I suppose by this logic none of the prequel Jedi or hell even Anakin doesn’t matter because anybody can just wield a lightsaber and tap into the Force if tHeY jUsT bElIeVeD iN tHeMsElVeS? Why does Rey matter when apparently anyone could have taken down the First Order and destroyed Palpatine when some fucking Mando could have just done the job of being Force sensitive doesn’t matter?

Like believe me guys, I am TRYING so hard not to be a hater but it truly makes me sad to see the one element of Star Wars I love so much (I.e. the Jedi Order and everything they do and stand for) just get picked apart and trashed over and over and over again. I just don’t understand it and I know I can’t be the only one feeling like this.

Also Ahsoka’s character right now is reminding me of Luke’s in TLJ where I feel like I’m seeing and hearing a completely different character and it’s heartbreaking when you’ve looked up and loved these heroes so much. Like for Gods sake can we settle the score in where Ahsoka stands with the Jedi? Is she or is she not? Because right now she’s doing a poor representation of all her mentors who have lost their lives staying true to themselves, Jedi who gave everything to protect and save lives. Now she seems to just go out of her way to scoff at the Order that raised her, similar to Luke dismissing the very thing that gave him hope in the OT.

As these new shows go on, it just makes the fall of the Jedi Order all the more tragic just seeing how their sacrifice and good will meant absolutely nothing. That’s why characters like Cal Kestis and Cere Junda are incredible. They stayed true to their Jedi values no matter what because that’s what the galaxy needs, heroes who care. Not heroes who have personal agendas.

[antianakin]

The best part about the Obi-Wan Kenobi show as opposed to certain other Star Wars shows is that it actively and continuously recognizes the truth that the Original Trilogy set up from day one and that is that Obi-Wan Kenobi is just better than Anakin Skywalker in every way.

[maulfucker]

If you look at my blog it might seem like I only care about Satine as an accessory to my pet toxic yaoi ship, but I do actually care about her as a character who could've been so much more interesting than the very basic characterization they gave her. I've said this before and I maintain it - she should've been a pacifist with a gun. defending that pacifism applies to institutions and governments not to individuals. she should've worn mandalorian armor and she should've kept her blasters eternally set to stun but still visibly carried blasters. she should've punched pre vizsla in the face. she should've punched maul in the face. she should've been padmé's idol, a role model for what she could've been. not impulsive and lovesick like padmé, not willing to risk her life or forgive anything for love like padmé, but a powerful politician who cared for her people and her culture and wouldn't hesitate to pick up a blaster if she had to.

[lieutenant-teach]

I don’t understand people shitting on ‘Obi-Wan Kenobi’ and ‘The Book of Boba Fett’. Loved both series. I found them quite exciting – both were interesting (rewatched recently), lovely character development, good acting. I don’t even have a lot of qualms with the plots. Yes, probably pacing should’ve been better, but in general – very positive impression from both series. Unlike from ‘Ahsoka’ when absolutely fine characters from previous projects become unlikable as people (looking at Ahsoka ‘attachments are ok and Jedi kinda suck, only I’m perfect’ Tano and Sabine ‘fuck everything and everyone – I nullify Ezra’s sacrifice, and also I act like an insolent moody teenager at my 30s’ Wren), and as a whole, I found ‘Ahsoka’ boring. ‘The Acolyte’ – notorious for disjointed actions, flip-flopping motivations and shitting on previously established almost 45-year-old canon.

‘OWK’ features authentic Star Wars atmosphere. It was captivating to follow Obi-Wan’s change, same as Reva’s and Leia’s. I was touched by the moment with Darth Vader’s broken mask when we see Anakin’s face peeking out of it and his voice teetering on edge of Anakin’s natural and Vader’s mechanical, showing that we shouldn’t distinguish these two (as Disney loves now) – they’re one. Almost shed a tear at Jedi symbol scribblings on walls – representation that for lots of common citizens Jedi are still a symbol of hope (that, as we know, will come). Owen and Beru, Bail and Breha – caring and loving parents for their respective nephew and daughter. Obi-Wan coming back from his depression and finding hope again, relieving his heart of burden of smth that wasn’t his fault. Agrh, lovely.

‘TBOBF’ shares Star-Wars’y Tatooinian atmosphere with ‘OWK’ – except episodes of ‘The Mandalorian’. Frankly, I felt put off by a sudden change in color scheme – from warm sandy to cold metallic (ep.5-6). I really think the creatives should have focused on Boba alone – tell more about his relationships with his new associates and with the town citizens, could’ve touched slavery problem (if he did anything with it, I’d love if he did), how he holds his business. Also instead of following Mando (who has his own series!!!) I’d enjoy talking more about Boba’s past, his relationship with his father’s legacy and how he feels about leaving it behind, if he identifies himself as a Mandalorian or a Tusken or his own thing, how he feels about his clone ancestry… Lots of interesting themes to explore. I loved his character development, I adore that he’s not depicted as this heartless hunter from the books. Also he should’ve been given more agency in his ruling (the bigger part is done by Fennec). But still – I rewatch his episodes with pleasure.

[mustbethursdayy]

How I’m feeling about The Acolyte. (I’m not watching it.)

[short-wooloo]

"Shin is simply a better character than Reva"

HOW!?

She has barely any characterization!

8 episodes and we know nothing about her!

And don't give me that "well 2nd season" crap! She's apparently a major character, we shouldn't have to wait 2-3 years for a second season to learn anything about her!

[radiosummons]

Not to compare apples to oranges or whatever in regards to fictional characters' trauma, but Anakin wouldn't have been able to handle even 1/4 of what Obi-Wan went through.

Look, I’m an Anakin stan myself. He’s not my number one blorbo, but I do adore him and purely for the fact that he’s a goddamn fucking mess. But I can’t help but feel like some of the more extreme Anakin stans keep missing the point of the prequels/Clone Wars as a whole. That being: Darth Vader could not exist without Anakin.

I only bring up Obi-Wan because a lot of the takes I’ve seen from people trying to defend Anakin from any speck of criticism tends to almost always revolve around his trauma/shitty life experience. And, like ... he’s not unique in that aspect. If anything, Obi-Wan shares a very sad, almost mirror-like amount of experiences with him.

For example:

-Obi-Wan was a slave. A lot of characters in the Star Wars universe were slaves.

Anakin was a slave!

((Update to the above: someone asked for clarification on this point, and I made a lengthy response in my reply/reblog. If my reply is too difficult to find down the road, I can add that bit here. Otherwise, the short version of the above isn't that Obi-wan's trauma is more valid than Anakin's. Just that 1) Anakin being a slave is not unique in the world of Star Wars and 2) Obi-wan and Anakin do share similar traumas but react very differently to said traumas)).

-Obi-Wan’s father figure (Qui-Gon) died in his arms.

Anakin’s mother died in his arms!

-Obi-Wan lost the love of his life. Who also died in his arms. Who also, strangely enough, did not die because of anything he did.

Anakin lost the love of his life!

Anakin was criticized by the Jedi Order for his inability to let go of others!

-Obi-Wan was criticized by the Jedi Council and his peers for his attachments to Qui-Gon, Anakin, Ashoka, Quinlan, Satine, etc, etc. The Jedi did not condemn him (or Anakin) for forming these attachments. He learned to let go of those he loved when their time came, no matter what form that took, i.e. death or simply them choosing to take their own paths without him in their lives.

Anakin had anger issues that made it difficult for him to form proper relationships!

-Obi-Wan had horrendous anger issues. Qui-Gon initially refused to taken him on as a padawan specifically because he had a horrifc temper. He learned to control his anger so that it would no longer control him. 

Anakin was being targeted and tempted by a Sith!

-Obi-Wan was directly targeted by multiple Sith at multiple instances throughout his life. They all at one point or another tried to force him into using the Dark Side (Maul, in particular), or tried to convince him to leave the Jedi Order and become a Sith (Count Dooku, mostly, but also Asajj). He didn’t. 

Palpatine manipulated Anakin!

-Obi-Wan was also manipulated by Palpatine. Everyone in the fucking galaxy was manipulated by Palpatine. Anakin is not special. 

I could go on and on and on. This is just a small list of one to one comparisons, but like ... this doesn’t even begin to scratch the surface of the absolute amount of horrendous shit that Obi-Wan has gone through, even prior to Order 66. I’m not saying that Anakin’s trauma isn’t valid, nor am I trying to say that Obi-Wan is a better character than Anakin because of how much more he has gone through in comparison.

My point is this: At no point, did Obi-Wan give into the Dark Side or become a Sith. Despite the actual living hell that his life was, he never ever ever turned to the Dark Side. A lot of people like to say he came close when he faced off against Maul during the episode “Revival,” and I can definitely see where people are coming from. But he didn’t.

In the grand scheme of things, Anakin does not have a fucking excuse for becoming a Sith Lord. Not that he (or any other Sith for that matter) ever had a valid excuse to begin with. But holy fuck, my guy. If someone like Obi-Wan, who literally has not known a single day of peace, can still somehow manage to keep themselves from giving into the temptation of becoming the emobiement of all things evil, especially in response to great emotional pain ... like, my guy, there really is no fucking excuse. 

[azurecanary]

I love the prequel flashbacks, i love the Hayden voiceovers, i love Ahsoka continuing Anakin's legacy whether she likes it or not, i love how this character is being treated just as Star Wars™️ as the other prequel characters are, i love it i love it i love it.

[thejediandthemandalorian]

I have a book series rec but also it's just in the form of me reminiscing so like...take that as you will.

Sometimes I just think about 'The Last of the Jedi' series by Jude Watson (connected to her other two series which are pre-cursors 'Jedi Apprentice' and Jedi Quest.) And I just think about Ferus Olin my boy. And I think about how Obi-Wan very briefly left Tatooine to find Ferus and more or less ended up tasking him with finding the remaining Jedi (kinda unspoken but also ya know) and anyways. Ferus, one of the last Jedi survivors who's old and used to train under Master Siri Tachi and went on missions alongside Obi-Wan and Anakin (ya know before he left the order) ends up finding this blue haired kid, Trevor Flume, roaming the streets and basically takes him in and takes care of him (mind you if my memory serves me correctly it was relatively unwilling.) And they stumble upon several people to take on their merry band of misfits (of who I cannot remember rn because it's been like 10+ years since I've read the series so apologies if I'm misremembering.)

But I remember their secret base was this asteroid and Ferus kinda had a run in with crazy evil scientist Jenna Zan Arbor (from back in his day) and also this Grand Sith Inquisitor whose name was Malorum (who died in the same pit Darth Maul fell in on Naboo.) And I remember Ferus was hunting for like...a missing Jedi who they'd heard rumors of still being alive, Fy-Tor-Ana.

And I remember he re-met with Astri Oddo (also from back in the day) and helped her rescue his force sensitive son (because Jenna Xan Arbor was trying to conduct experiments in him for Astri's ex husband Big Divinian) Lune. And I think Astri and Lune started traveling with them I can't remember.

And I also remember him becoming a double agent for the Emperor, temporarily working under Vader because he had no other choice. And also he stumbled across this person 'Flame' who was trying to start a rebellion and worked with Ferus and...

Anyways I'll stop there because spoilers. Though I know this post is one mass spoiler if you've never read the series. But also I recommend it so highly. All of them. And if some of what I said happens to sound a little familiar to you well..

Sometimes I just think about these books and how they shaped my love and adoration for star wars as a kid. And how I own all of them and still need to reread them for nostalgia purposes. But anyways that being said (shade has been thrown if you caught on) read these books because they're so good!

[antianakin]

The one thing I'd add is that being IN a romantic relationship or even leaving the Order to pursue a more committed relationship (and possibly a more traditional family), does not necessarily equate to the Jedi being unhappy as a Jedi. Jedi can theoretically be in some level of romantic relationship without it being an issue, and a Jedi choosing to leave the Order to pursue a more committed relationship (and potentially to raise a family) does not necessarily equate to them being unhappy with being a Jedi since it could just as easily be a simple change of priorities.

Many members of the Jedi Council seem perfectly aware that Anakin and Padme are at least sleeping together and that they have romantic feelings for each other, and and they don't make an issue out of it until Anakin appears to be seriously struggling because of the relationship. Obi-Wan specifically tells Anakin that romantic feelings are natural and that the Jedi don't forbid them at all. He does advise Anakin to remain "just friends" with Padme in that conversation, but Anakin is also in a situation right now where he's so angry that he nearly kills a man because he believes Padme was cheating on him. This relationship is causing Anakin some serious issues that Obi-Wan and the others are very clearly able to pick up on, so it's not exactly wrong for Obi-Wan to try to gently point out that if the relationship is perhaps becoming an attachment, that Anakin should put an end to it.

And I have plenty to say about Obi-Wan in particular, so I'll put it under a cut for anyone less interested in that.

Obi-Wan and Satine are... a terrible couple in so many ways, but there's a million things I could use to counter the argument that Obi-Wan's stated feelings for her don't equate to Obi-Wan being unhappy as a Jedi. Satine seems to actively make Obi-Wan MISERABLE. He's a much worse person throughout the entire Duchess of Mandalore arc than he is anywhere else. He's mean-spirited about Satine's beliefs, he's constantly frustrated with her choices, he intentionally starts screaming matches with her in public, he does not seem to respect her very much, and he's quite literally sexist towards her by the end. There isn't a single moment between them that seems to be particularly HAPPY or would make me believe that Obi-Wan genuinely still wants to leave being a Jedi in order to pursue a relationship with Satine. By comparison, we have TONS of little moments of Obi-Wan just being happy within the Temple and interacting really positively with other Jedi he's with. Despite his one line in the Duchess of Mandalore arc about some remorse for a road not taken, he never actually SHOWS any remorse about being a Jedi anywhere else. You cannot convince me that what little remorse he might have over a what-might-have-been with Satine equates to him being unhappy as a Jedi and that canon actually shows that he'd be HAPPIER with Satine. You just can't.

If we DO want to bring Legends in, I can also speak to Siri and Obi-Wan's relationship from the Jedi Apprentice series where we actually get to see them get together and make the choice to break up in order to remain Jedi. Within that book, Qui-Gon discovers the relationship and ultimately comes to tell Obi-Wan that he knows Obi-Wan well enough to recognize that losing being a Jedi will devastate him more in the long run than losing his relationship with Siri because it's so much more intrinsic to who he is than his feelings for Siri will ever be. Obi-Wan brings up Qui-Gon's relationship with Tahl and Qui-Gon points out that while he and Tahl never actually got to explore being in a relationship, he did end up losing her and he's still here. He's still doing well, still capable of being happy without her. So he is literally living proof that the loss of a relationship, no matter how deep your feelings, is not necessarily the end of the world. And when Obi-Wan and Siri speak on their own later, Siri says this, which stuck with me: "I didn't want to decide. Isn't that weak of me? I wanted you to decide. I was so afraid of what lay ahead that I wanted to let go of my own will. Is this what love is? Then maybe I'm not cut out for it at all." While Obi-Wan and Siri DO love each other and seem to make each other very happy, the text supports the idea that neither of them would necessarily be MORE happy if they left the Order for each other and that being a Jedi is more important to both of them than the relationship is, even if they don't feel that way currently.

So if you apply that concept to Obi-Wan and Satine as well, Obi-Wan's "remorse" about choosing to end the relationship might be real still, but it doesn't necessarily equate to him being UNHAPPY as a Jedi or unhappy without the romance. It could just as easily be remorse about HOW he chose to end it as it is remorse over ending it at all. And just because he expresses remorse about losing the relationship with Satine doesn't mean he'd somehow have LESS remorse if he left the Jedi for her instead. He may have felt otherwise as a teenager twenty years ago, but that doesn't mean it would've been true or that it would be true now.

And if we want to pick up Disney canon to help support this, we can look at the Obi-Wan Kenobi show where Obi-Wan DOES leave behind being a Jedi for about ten years and he is MISERABLE. Granted he loses literally everyone he ever cares about and now lives in a cave because he'll be hunted if he doesn't, but I think we can apply a similar concept. Obi-Wan is, in a lot of ways, no longer a Jedi. He's not really acting like one much, he doesn't let go of his feelings very well, he isn't standing up for people, he's downtrodden, defeated, and unwilling to fight for anyone, including himself. But by no longer being a Jedi, he could, arguably, be considered free to go off and live a normal life. He could fall in love with someone on Tatooine and make a home with them if he wanted. This could've been how he found happiness again. But it isn't. Obi-Wan only achieves happiness and peace again, only finds HIMSELF again, when he becomes a JEDI again. He reclaims that identity as a Jedi and it's BEING A JEDI that allows him to find a community and reconnect with people and, ultimately, to reconnect to the Force. So Qui-Gon's words from Jedi Apprentice end up ringing true: the loss of being a Jedi is a regret that never lessened and it wasn't romance that saved him, but going BACK to the Jedi he once was. The relationships he builds with others in that show are all platonic in nature (they were originally going to make Tala a more explicit love interest and the actress has said she still played it as though Tala was in love with Obi-Wan, but the romance itself was removed). Obi-Wan's identity as a Jedi is the MOST IMPORTANT part of him, the part of him that defines who he is the most. Being a Jedi is what makes him the happiest and most at peace. What feelings he may or may not have had for Satine will always, ALWAYS pale in comparison to what being a Jedi means to him.

Call me crazy, but I know for a fact that I would not want a romantic relationship if I was a Jedi.

If I lived somewhere where I was a part of a community of people that I considered my mentors, my friends, my family; if I lived somewhere where I was encouraged to learn, to travel, to help people, to enjoy life as it is, and better myself; if I lived somewhere where I was supported and loved and cared for by the community, and I did the supporting, the loving, the caring for other people in the community as well; if I lived somewhere where it wasn't constantly implied, or sometimes outright stated, that my worth was tied to me marrying a man, popping out children, and making money...

...if I was a Jedi, I can honestly say that the thought of pursuing a romantic relationship probably wouldn't cross my mind at all---not unless I met someone specific whom I felt that sort of connection with, but even then, I probably wouldn't give up being a Jedi to be with them because I'd feel more fulfilled as a Jedi than I would in a romantic relationship.

I honestly don't understand the assumption that the Jedi are miserable because they can't get married, I really don't.

If you feel like you wouldn't be able to be fulfilled without a romantic partner, then that's fine! Everyone's different! We all have different wants and needs! But just accept that you wouldn't be fulfilled without a romantic relationship and stop acting like it's impossible for anyone else to feel differently.

The Jedi all seem perfectly happy as they are.

[antianakin]

Am I the only one who just lost any and all love for newer Star Wars material due to Jedi hate ? Like- the only merch or show or even FANDOM topic I get involved in is clone wars stuff and MAYBE TBB. Like- why would I want the watch shows who attempt to rewritte canon and portray the very heroes of Star Wars as the bad guys ?

Why would I want to watch shows that assassinate characters left and right (looking at you, Ahsoka and Sabine) ? Why would I want to buy merch of characters who I not only NOT care about, but who also are used as meta mouthpieces for stupid Jedi hate ?

I think there's TONS of good newer Star Wars material, to be honest.

I loved the Kenobi show and it is arguably one of the most pro Jedi pieces of media to have existed since the Prequels films. Aside from one itty bitty somewhat awkward word choice in one line of one episode, there is absolutely NOTHING in that show that can be used to indict the Jedi or blame them for anything and it is arguably one of the only shows to really spend time MOURNING the Jedi and recognizing the horror of what was done to them. Rebels comes closest after this, but its structure makes it a little less visceral than the Kenobi show was to me.

I really adore Visions and I recognize that this is sort-of Star Wars adjacent more than anything else, but SO LITTLE truly understands what makes Star Wars compelling as a story and really hits on those primary themes the way that Visions does. There's SO MUCH Jedi content in Visions and I remember people complaining about how much Jedi content was in Visions and other people responding that if you were given free reign to just play in the Star Wars sandbox with near zero restrictions on what you could make with it, you would probably ALSO immediately go for the psychic space wizards with laser swords. Who WOULDN'T? Visions also just genuinely has some of the most engaging and heart-wrenching stories to come out of Star Wars in a LONG while and it does it in these beautifully animated 15 minute packages. It's such a gem and I am so glad to be alive at the same time as Visions.

Rogue One is older now, but both Rogue One and Andor, despite having zero actual Jedi in them, really hinge on the themes from the Prequel trilogy about the tragedy in the Star Wars universe, stepping up when no one else will, choosing to be selfless and compassionate for the greater good, etc. Faith and hope are MASSIVE themes within these two works and even though there aren't any space wizards, good or evil, in either story, they feel like some of the most pro Jedi things Star Wars has come out with in a while based on thematic messages ALONE.

The Mandalorian's first two seasons actually have this absolutely BEAUTIFUL story about the selfless sacrifice of one man as he gives up everything in order to help this child find his way back to the culture he'd been ripped from. Everything AFTER that regarding Grogu and Din's storyline is a piece of shit (it's not explicitly anti-Jedi or anything, but it undoes a lot of the things that made their story so compelling and beautiful), but the first two seasons are genuinely GOOD and very pro Jedi in a lot of ways despite the lack of many actual Jedi characters.

The Book of Boba Fett is a terrible show for a LOT of reasons, but shockingly none of them have anything to do with its treatment of the Jedi. If it ever ends up with a season two, I desperately hope they leave Mace Windu's name the fuck out of it, but at this point it is a pretty Jedi neutral show if you're willing to deal with the rest of its bullshit.

Rebels is also somewhat older now, and it has a few lines here and there that are a tad more Jedi critical, but it is by and large VERY Jedi positive and does also follow a lot of the themes of selflessness and sacrifice that go along with being a Jedi. It also has themes of mercy and patience and facing your fears in Sabine's storyline that got entirely thrown away in her later storyline. Just thought that was worth pointing out. For reasons.

TBB is also fairly Jedi neutral, but its treatment of the clones is basically the clone version of being anti Jedi, so I'm not sure it's actually any better. It just traded hating on the Jedi to hating on the clones, and I find that just as distasteful.

I can't really speak to things like comics and novels much since I don't tend to consume them really. I've read a few of the adult novels in the High Republic Phase I and the first one was genuinely very good, but there were some relatively heavy-handed Jedi critical themes within the third book of Phase I (The Fallen Star) that put me off of it a little. I haven't continued into Phase II or III at all, so I have no idea if those themes got continued in later books. I've heard generally good things about the Padawan book, I think.

The Cal Kestis video games, Fallen Order and Survivor, also have their small Jedi critical moments, but much like Rebels, it has these massive overarching themes and messages about compassion and selflessness and sacrifice and facing your fears and mercy. They are immensely Jedi positive in a lot of ways and I really enjoyed both of them.

So out of everything I have seen (and know about) the only stuff that's truly heinously and insultingly anti-Jedi is the Ahsoka show, the Acolyte, and Tales of the Jedi. Three shows and like 30% of one book. Out of a list of like ten different shows and one film and some books and video games. It's not even really HALF of the content we've been getting recently.

A lot of people talk about the Disney era like it's ruined Star Wars, or like nothing it releases has ever been good. But it just straight up isn't true. It's a little insulting to all of the genuinely wonderful work that is being done by all of these other creators to just brush aside everything that's been coming out recently as awful and bad because some of the MOST recent things have been pretty explicitly hateful towards the Jedi. It's not fun that we had the Ahsoka show immediately followed by the Bad Batch followed by the Acolyte. I hate that, too, it feels like we're on this neverending shitshow of stories explicitly aimed at hating a group of characters for no obvious good reason. But I don't think that the last 6 months or so of bullshit should overshadow some of the really beautiful stories we HAVE gotten within the last several years.

If you feel like things are getting difficult, maybe do a "good Star Wars" marathon of sorts. Watch the Prequels, followed by the Kenobi show, then Andor, then Rebels, then Rogue One, then the Original trilogy. This one long beautiful story of people stepping up to fight against selfishness and greed and darkness no matter what.

Or go rewatch Visions or read some of your favorite fanfics and remember all the things about Star Wars that are just universally cool and compelling across the world. Hell, you can try writing something of your own! Anything! A lot of my AU concepts stemmed from spite and really helped me feel a little bit better about Star Wars when it sometimes felt like I was just surrounded by the parts of it I liked the least. Go buy yourself a cool t-shirt or some fun jewelry. Find some pretty stickers and put it on a water bottle or an enamel pin to put on a canvas tote bag or a corkboard.

Curating your fandom experience goes beyond just the internet. There's a reason I am boycotting the Acolyte and it isn't because I think Disney or its creators are going to care at all. I'm doing it for ME, because I had such a shitty time watching the Ahsoka show and it made me so miserable each week that I seriously think I will be better off just leaving it the hell alone and just absorbing whatever ends up crossing my dash from a distance. I only participate in Star Wars fandom servers that I feel safe in and only really get into discussions with personal friends who I know well. If participating in Star Wars fandom is making you sad, maybe take a step back or find a way to create your own corner of fandom that feels better. Ignore the damn Ahsoka show, pretend it never existed. Ignore the Acolyte. Ignore Tales of the Jedi. Ignore Filoni-related bullshit. Focus on the parts you DO like, or give yourself the space to remember why you liked it in the first place.

[maidenvault]

During my last rewatch of the prequels I was actually shocked by how much I've misremembered or decontextualized certain moments in my mind because of how they're often talked about in fandom as showing the Jedi as too arrogant, too bureaucratic, generally just burying their heads in the sand while everything goes bad etc. So I'm gonna try to address every individual scene that typically gets brought up to argue that this is an actual theme in Lucas's portrayal of the Order.

The Council doesn't take Qui-Gon's account of meeting a Sith seriously.

Mace and Ki Adi Mundi do both express doubt this guy could be a Sith. (Understandably! Historically they've never known Sith to be able to hide their existence, and for them to have survived totally in secret for a thousand years is a pretty wild thing for Qui-Gon to be so sure of.)

BUT Yoda admits that the dark side is hard to see, and Mace assures Qui-Gon they'll do everything to find out the identity of the attacker. Later he's ordered to go back to Naboo and try to draw out Maul to discover more. Qui-Gon accepts this and doesn't ask for backup. Why should he? He held his own against Maul before, and Maul's probably not gonna show himself again to face a ton of Jedi. They end up missing the chance to learn who trained Maul because of how things go down, but Qui-Gon's death isn't the result of the Council mishandling the situation.

At the funeral, Yoda says the presence of one Sith means there's another out there. They know they've got to be on guard now and will be, but they've got no more leads for now.

2. Qui-Gon's not here to free slaves.

There's this idea that slavery existing on Tatooine shows the Order is apparently too tied up doing shady things for self-interested politicians (footage not found) to help the people who really need it. But Padme's shocked to know the Skywalkers are slaves for a reason. The truth is there isn't a lot of slavery in the galaxy at this time because the Jedi have helped keep it that way for centuries only by working with the Republic. In TCW we see that Zygerrian slavers have a particular hatred of Jedi because they're literally The Anti Slavery People and did so much of the work to crack down on their trade. But Tatooine is controlled by the Hutts and they simply don't have the resources to start a war with them.

(And honestly, it's crazy how people talk like Qui-Gon's a monster for honestly and apologetically telling Anakin no, that's not why he's here. This is a child he's already indebted to and who has a hero-worshipping idea of Jedi, it would be fucked up for him not to be clear about how he can't help him and his mom.)

3. They doubt Dooku could be behind the assassination attempt.

This I understand shows the Jedi to be a little naive. But they knew Dooku as a good man, and at this point he and his followers are still putting on a show of wanting to secede for idealistic reasons (and a few of them, manipulated by Dooku, actually do have good intentions). Only later do the Jedi learn they're illegally building an army before they've even officially left the Republic and clearly have no interest in the peaceful resolution Padme's been advocating for. And they only find this out because they have Obi-Wan investigate the assassin and this very quickly leads him to Dooku.

4. "Arrogance, yes. A trait more and more common among Jedi. Even the older, more experienced ones."

In context, this line from Yoda is clearly not meant to be taken so seriously. Obi-Wan says he fears Anakin is too arrogant, and this is Yoda's light-hearted way of telling him not to be so hard on him. Part of training a Padawan is learning to trust them so they can grow, and Obi-Wan perhaps needs the reminder that he isn't done learning himself.

Of course Yoda saying this could be partly motivated by them having been caught off guard before by the existence of Darth Maul and the dark side clouding their awareness, as we're told repeatedly throughout the PT they know is a problem. But it's kind of contradictory to take this as confirmation that this is a serious fatal flaw of theirs. If someone acknowledges their own arrogance then they're aware of their ability to be wrong, which means they can't actually be that arrogant. If truly meant in a general sense and not just as a gentle reproof of Obi-Wan, it's a pretty self-deprecating comment coming from Yoda.

5. "If an item does not appear in our records, it does not exist."

Chief Librarian Jocasta Nu gives this haughty response to Obi-Wan looking for Kamino, a system that's not in the Jedi Archives. So being so overly confident in the infallible knowledge of the Jedi, he takes her word for it and totally drops this lead.

Except no, he goes to someone older and wiser to figure out what this actually means. And he and Yoda are forced to conclude that the unthinkable - a trusted person among them somehow had reason to erase information from the archive - must nonetheless be what happened. This is honestly an exception that proves the rule: Kamino, and we can assume only Kamino, is missing from the archive only because it was removed, which is so suspicious it just shows he must be on the right track to discovering something. Jocasta is kind of snooty about it but theirs obviously is supposed to be one of the most accurate and complete databases in the galaxy.

6. Obi-Wan doesn't believe what Dooku tells him about the Senate.

For one thing, in this conversation Dooku's lying about basically everything but this. And I can't ever stress enough that Palpatine is a threat unlike anything the Jedi have ever dealt with before, who's already taken control of so much before they even know they're fighting anything, so the idea that a Sith is controlling the Senate would be really hard for anyone to believe.

Still, we know Obi-Wan reports this to the Council anyway. But it's a vague statement and they still don't have any information to act on. Palpatine soon has them very busy putting out fires in the war, and naturally fighting the Separatists who are led by Sith seems the best way for them to get to the bottom of what exactly is going on with the dark side. And they do finally turn their attention to how power-hungry Palpatine is getting once the war is nearly over and they've got the bandwidth for it, and think about what they might have to do if he's the threat to their democracy they fear, but of course he's too many steps ahead of them all the time.

---

So basically, what we see the Jedi being so guilty of in these examples are thought crimes. When confronted with the crazy explanation that happens to be true, their instinctive reaction is "No, I don't think that's possible." And then they do their due diligence to uncover as much of the truth as they can anyway. And Yoda, the Grand Master of them all, is often the first to admit that their first assumptions could be wrong. But Palpatine wouldn't be a good villain if his moves were predictable and he couldn't get an advantage over the good guys - that's just how storytelling works sometimes and it's not that deep.

It honestly felt stupid typing so much of this out because it's 90% just describing what actually happens in these scenes. But I guess it's a lot to ask that people actually carefully watch the films they discuss. 😒

[kanansdume]

The thing the Kenobi show did MILES better than the Ahsoka show, in my opinion, was not that it emphasized that Obi-Wan's forgiveness was due to his personal connection to Anakin, but that it emphasized that that forgiveness doesn't automatically have to mean that Obi-Wan forgets everything Anakin had done and was still doing.

Obi-Wan ultimately WALKS AWAY FROM ANAKIN at the end of that show. He feels so guilty and is so confused about WHY Anakin did the things he did, that he ultimately turns around and blames himself instead and actually apologizes to Anakin "for everything" (something we actually DO see happen with Ahsoka as well but ONLY in Rebels, never in the Ahsoka show). But what Obi-Wan ultimately recognizes is that there is literally no point to this. There's no point in trying to save Anakin so long as he is committed to being evil. There is no point in tying himself into knots and making himself miserable over someone like this. He loved Anakin once, sure, and a part of him likely always will, but he is able to recognize that the person he loved is GONE because Anakin is currently choosing to be an awful person instead. And this allows him to actually finally LET GO of Anakin in a way I don't think Ahsoka ever does or ever WILL be able to do.

This also allows Obi-Wan to be able to acknowledge that Anakin is currently evil, currently a monster, currently irredeemable and incapable of being saved, while still able to remember who Anakin used to be fondly. This is why he can say nice things about Anakin to both Leia and then later Luke while separating out "Darth Vader" as someone else entirely. It's not that he doesn't accept they're the same person, it's just that he is recognizing that Anakin used to be a better person than he is currently choosing to be (and also he is speaking to someone who doesn't know Anakin and Darth Vader are the same person and he's trying to keep that information from them for the time being).

To me, this is MASSIVELY more healthy than what we see Ahsoka do in the Ahsoka show, where she effectively is able to forgive him because she is told almost point blank by Huyang that Anakin isn't responsible for the awful horrible things he did because it was "meant to be" and because he did it For Love or something (Huyang is speaking about Sabine, but everything he says feels very pointedly also about Anakin). I think her "He was a good Master" comment is supposed to parallel Obi-Wan's "he was a good friend" line where like... it's kinda true, but also kinda not. However, Obi-Wan's has the context of speaking to Luke where Obi-Wan is forced to separate Anakin from Darth Vader for Luke's sake, while Ahsoka is just... talking to herself and doesn't actually need to do that. And Obi-Wan's commentary is IMMEDIATELY followed up by a lot of negative stuff about Vader, who we know is the same fucking person, while Ahsoka never says anything negative about Anakin at all throughout the entire show. So her "He was a good Master" line doesn't come off to me as her being capable of recognizing that he was once good DESPITE the bad things he also did, instead it comes off more as "This was ALL THAT HE WAS" or perhaps "this was the most IMPORTANT part of who he is and nothing else he did mattered in comparison." It feels like she is choosing to decide to ONLY remember him positively and just ignore the things he did that were bad because it's easier and simpler.

For me, it's not that it feels like she forgives him too quickly, it's been like 7-8 years since he died (Mando season 1 was set 5 years post ROTJ, and then it did a few years time jump by season 3, the Ahsoka show is set post Mando season 3) and about 15 years or so since she found out he was Vader to begin with (Rebels season 2 is approximately 3-4 years pre-ANH and there's about 3ish years between ANH and ROTJ). That's a LOT of time for her to come to terms with what he did and decide to forgive him for it. That's not a quick thing at all. The problem for me is that her forgiveness seems to come at the cost of deciding all the bad things he did DIDN'T MATTER and that his motives actually completely exonerated him of his crimes because he's not even truly responsible for it. Obi-Wan's does NOT.

Obi-Wan knows he loves Anakin, it's part of why he can't kill him (in ROTS at least, I think there's other motives for why he doesn't kill him in the Kenobi show beyond that), but his forgiveness is more about HIMSELF and letting himself accept that Anakin betrayed him and made his own selfish choices and refusing to be defined by Anakin's choices so he can let go and move on. His forgiveness FREES HIM from the burden of Anakin's selfishness, while Ahsoka's forgiveness seems to do the opposite and basically yokes her to Anakin for the rest of her life and destined to follow in his footsteps and make all of the exact same mistakes he did.

I do also agree though that it would've been really nice to have other characters at least show a lack of forgiveness or a lack of willingness to just... let that shit slide. It would've been so interesting to actually confirm that Hera and Sabine do KNOW about Anakin, not just that he was Vader, but that he was Ahsoka's master. It would've been REALLY interesting if they'd at least known that Ahsoka's Jedi master was, in fact, the dude who betrayed the entire Jedi Order, helped the Empire to rise, and then became Darth Vader and terrorized the galaxy for over 20 years. I imagine this would create some context for Ahsoka's behavior that would be super helpful and could have created some really interesting discussions between the characters.

Unfortunately, the Ahsoka show was written by a dude who has a pattern of completely ignoring or retconning the atrocities committed by certain characters when he wants to turn them into good guys on a whim (ex: Bo-Katan Kryze and Alexsander Kallus). And this is also the same dude who will INVENT crimes committed by other people when he wants to turn them into bad guys (ex: the Jedi Order and the New Republic). So it does not exactly shock me that he would have Sabine, Hera, Ahsoka, and Huyang act like Anakin didn't do anything wrong ever in his life. There was no way we were ever going to get a well-written, nuanced discussion of how Ahsoka feels about Anakin's betrayal and how that's continued to haunt her and impact her in a negative way before she forgives him so she can let go and move on from him for once in her life.

It's continuously frustrating that this show REFUSES to condemn Anakin for the things he's done or even really explicitly call him out on them, and they even go so far as to basically decide none of it even MATTERED.

But all they can say about the Jedi is that they failed.

When asked what Anakin was like, all Huyang says is that he was "intense."

The worst Ahsoka says is that he was "more dangerous than anyone realized" and then two episodes later she's calling him a "good master" despite everything he did to her and the rest of the galaxy. She never ONCE condemns him for committing a genocide against the Jedi and hunting them down for over two decades. She never ONCE condemns him for enslaving the clones and betraying their loyalty and using them as weapons against the Jedi they loved. She never ONCE condemns him for trying to personally kill HER.

He jokes with her, he gets to say that he wants to protect her, he gets to guide her into choosing to live, he makes recordings for her that she still uses years later. Anakin gets to be "more" than just his failures.

But the Jedi, somehow, do not. The Jedi are ONLY EVER their failures. Ahsoka never mentions them otherwise, she never remembers them fondly at all, she has no stories or connections about any of the other Jedi, she constantly disregards Jedi protcols as foolish and ridiculous at best.

The best thing they can say about the Jedi is that the "idea of them" had merit. But Anakin gets to be a GENUINELY good Jedi Master, more than just a good IDEA.

And this just feels like the WORST of double standards to me.

[gffa]

What are your thoughts regarding Jocasta Nu and the anti-Jedi sentiments raised against her because of her scene in Attack of the Clones.

She wasn't even mean about it! Was that scene there to show that the Jedi were a little too sure about themselves and had a touch of arrogance about thinking their Archives were complete? Yeah, sure, that's fine, it's hardly worth raking someone over the coals for, given that she was also shown to be warm and gentle in that scene where she talks about Dooku with Obi-Wan and all her scenes in TCW were of her always ready to help anyone who came into the Archives. TCW is just as canon to George Lucas as the movies are, so you can't divorce that context from her. To raise anti-Jedi sentiments because of one librarian being like, "Let me come over and help you, dear. Well, if it's not in our system, then it doesn't exist, now if you'll excuse me, there's a child over here that needs my help as well." (She literally walks off to go over to another Padawan.)?? Like THAT'S your case against the Jedi?? She didn't even insult anyone else! She didn't even sneer or click her tongue or give anyone a dirty look! Let Jocasta Nu be kind of full of herself and not have to have it be something to drag all the Jedi through the mud over, like people can be kinda annoying or kinda full of themselves as a sign that they're not perfect and they don't always know everything, but you don't have to make it And That's Why The Jedi Deserved Their Genocide. It doesn't have to be part of a major case against the Jedi, sometimes characters can just be. If the Jedi are allowed to be flawed, let them be flawed without having it have to be a talking point about how the entire Jedi Order is mistaken about everything. LET HER JUST BE. LET 👏 JOCASTA 👏 NU 👏 BE 👏 KIND 👏 OF 👏 A 👏 BITCH 👏 I SUPPORT JOCASTA NU A LITTLE BIT OF A BITCH RIGHTS

[david-talks-sw]

How the narrative framed Mace Windu, back in 2002

So there's this 2002 book written by Marcus Hearn, edited by J.W. Rinzler, titled Attack of the Clones - The Illustrated Companion. It was released a month before Episode II was released.

AKA, before EU material and anti-Jedi fanon could publicly reframe the meanings of the film... and before more recent narratives could reinterpret the character of Mace as a robotic, protocol-worshipping stickler who never bends the rules (when evidence shows he's anything but).

So how does Marcus Hearn - "untainted" by all the above factors, armed only with the Prequel films and their screenplays - frame the character of Mace Windu?

MACE & ANAKIN

Fandom: "Mace hated Anakin from Day #1 and never trusted him. Mace was probably jealous as he always thought he was the Chosen One, not Anakin!"

Attack of the Clones' - The Illustrated Companion:

"Jedi Masters Yoda and Mace Windu lead the High Council in rejecting Qui-Gon's application to train Anakin, 'He is too old,' concludes Mace Windu. 'There is already too much anger in him.'

Hearn explains that the problem with Anakin wasn't that he was just too old, it's that because of that age he had become too filled with fear and anger to a point where taking on the Jedi training would be twice as hard for him as it already was for everyone else.

Hearn doesn't chastise Mace for this initial decision. On the contrary, he adds more context to it by using a line from the screenplay to explain where Mace is coming from.

He also goes further into Mace's view of Anakin throughout the book:

"[Mace] over-estimates Anakin Skywalker, paying little credence to Obi-Wan's protestations that the boy is too confused and disturbed to be dispatched on a solo mission."

"The Jedi Council is aware of Anakin's exceptional skills, and Mace Windu believes Anakin may fulfill the prophecy that says a being will one day bring balance to the Force. But Anakin still has a lot to learn…"

He's basically stating that Mace believes in Anakin, but that doing so is a mistake. Which, to be fair, considering how things turn out for Mace and the Jedi... is kinda true!

Mace's problem with Anakin is almost the opposite of what most of the fandom projects onto him.

It's not that he dislikes Anakin, on the contrary, he holds Anakin in too high of an esteem and is overlooking Anakin's glaring flaws because "hey, Anakin's the Chosen One. He's got this!"

That's not the only flaw Mace has, according to Hearn.

MACE'S (and the Jedi's) ONLY REAL FLAW

Fandom: "Mace and the Jedi had become too emotionally detached, they had lost touch with the common folk by spending too much time in their ivory tower. They focused so much on being selfless that they forgot how to care, they've become a bunch of elitist, righteous sticklers for protocol who care more about upholding laws than actually helping the people those laws are meant to protect!"

Attack of the Clones' - The Illustrated Companion:

"Although he is a senior member of the Jedi Council, little in Mace Windu's experience has prepared him for the looming threats of the dark side of the Force and Count Dooku's Separatists."

"Mace Windu's faith in the Jedi to protect the Republic is admirable, but it also blinds him to the true scale of the growing menace. He is aware that the dark side is growing, but still allows himself to be too easily reassured about the Separatists' ambitions. [...] Mace fatally misjudges Count Dooku, refusing to believe he could be behind any attempt on Senator Amidala's life. 'Dooku was once a ledi, he tells Padmé. 'He couldn't assassinate anyone. It's not in his character.'"

"Mace Windu's strengths are, in many ways, qualities shared by the Jedi Order as a whole - he is an accomplished diplomat and a fine swordsman. Such skills have served the Jedi well in their role as the galaxy's peacekeepers for a thousand generations. But such skills are not enough to save the Jedi from their own complacency, and the tumultuous changes that threaten to wipe them out forever."

Hearn perfectly grasps what the Jedi's only real flaw is, in George Lucas' intended narrative: they were unprepared, complacent, they were blind... and now they're stuck playing catch-up.

But when he's saying that, he's not blaming them for it. Because this flaw doesn't derive from some sense of elitism or superiority... it is an inevitable consequence of their qualities.

They've managed to stay out of politics as neutral diplomats... ... but that makes them vulnerable to the Sith's plot, which primarily takes place within the political arena, where they have no control or experience.

They are painfully aware of the corruption in the Senate... ... but as a result, they're too quick to trust the Separatist's talking points as well-meaning and genuine, instead of seeing the movement for what it really is: greedy big business trying to become the government.

They trust and agree with Dooku, believe in what he publicly stands for (after all this man used to be one of the wisest and kindest members of the Jedi Order, Mace's friend, Yoda's Padawan, etc)... ... but as such, they are blind to his true nature, that of a treacherous Sith who'd stoop to orchestrating assassinations.

The Jedi have their guard up, knowing that there's another Sith Lord still out there, orchestrating in the shadows... ... but they can't really find him, because the Dark Side has clouded everything, so only darksiders are able to sense the possibilities of the future! Them serving the good side is screwing them over, in this situation.

Flaws such as being too trusting or being unprepared, letting your guard down because you've established a 1000-year-peace, are flaws that kind, noble characters such as the Jedi are bound to have.

They may be flaws, but they aren't faults. And considering the way he describes Mace and the Jedi, it's clear Hearn grasps the nuance.

MACE'S RELUCTANCE TO JOIN THE WAR

Fandom: The Jedi joined the war out of arrogance, they thought they could swashbuckle their way through the problem and win, instead they didn't realize that they lost the very moment they joined.

Attack of the Clones' - The Illustrated Companion:

"Mace Windu believes in the Jedi as keepers of the peace - not as soldiers - but there comes a point when he reluctantly realizes that it is time to take affairs out of the realm of diplomacy."

Mace and the Jedi didn't want to start a war. If you read the script for Attack of the Clones, Mace and Bail keep grasping at straws to not engage with the Separatists up til the very end.

But when you consider that...

the Geonosians are about to execute Obi-Wan without a trial,

and the Separatists leaders have been unmasked as a coalition of unscrupulous corporate assholes who are willing to plunge the galaxy in chaos just to make more money.

... at some point, the Jedi have to come to terms with the fact that Separatist leadership (and Sidious) won't accept diplomacy because they want a conflict. A conflict will make them all richer. And the Republic, well, they're just dying to go to war too.

So the Jedi go save Obi-Wan and capture Dooku, hoping that in doing so, the conflict ends before it begins. They succeed in the former goal... but fail the latter one.

The Clone War has begun.

From there on, the Jedi are drafted to lead the war. Which is why - as Hearn points out - Mace was so reluctant to take action in the first place. The Jedi are ambassadors, they are not built for war... and now they've been forced into one.

Mace is by no means a perfect character... but he's someone doing his best. Just like Obi-Wan, just like Yoda, and all the other Jedi.

Overtime, Windu's character has been dumbed down to either "that one angry black man" or "the dogmatic emotionless dick who hated Anakin"... and I really think that that's not what we were meant to see him as.

The way Marcus Hearn (who also wrote The Cinema of George Lucas) refers to him is a much more charitable interpretation of how others (ahem Filoni ahem) do, nowadays.

[grifonecoronato]

Grown-Up Star Wars

IMO Andor, Obi-Wan Kenobi, and The Acolyte form a kind "trilogy" of shows that explore Star Wars from a more mature storytelling perspective, as all three examine specific themes deeper than other projects have attempted before.

By this I mean that they not only present a character struggling with something or having had something happen to them in their backstory, but also delve into the nuance, contradictions, and consequences of that character's motivations and choices.

For example, Obi-Wan Kenobi explored child abuse, forgiveness and trauma, themes that were also touched on, but not quite explored in Jedi: Fallen Order.

Andor explored anti-fascist resistance, which delves deeper than what's typically seen in stories set during the Empire era, which are mostly about fighting the authoritarian bad guys than fascism explicitly.

And The Acolyte asks its audience to examine the complexities inherent in emotions, such as regret, repression, longing, forgiveness, and wrath. These are present in the Prequel Trilogy (Revenge of the Sith, especially), but a lot of their weight is undercut by how quickly the stories must resolve for the film's run time (Anakin's leap from "I must save Padme" to "must massacre all teachers and children" is lightning fast).

I think that the show-runners of all three shows wanted to treat the fans like adults. Maybe they hoped the fandom was ready for it.