#anti obi wan show

[darthkote]

[jedimasterbailey]

SPOILERS IF YOU HAVE NOT WATCHED THE THIRD EPISODE OF AHSOKA

PRO JEDI RANT DOWN BELOW

This Loth Cat is a good representation of me not losing my mind on how badly the Jedi Order is being completely defiled by Feloni. Okay…so apparently according to Feloni anybody can just be a Jedi if they try really, really hard and believe in them because the Force resides in everyone when we all know that that’s not fucking true according to Lucas. Yes, the Force resides in all things HOWEVER it is the Force sensitive (I.e. the Jedi and Sith) that are able to wield the Force because they’ve got the blood to do so (midocholorians… I’m sure I’ve butchered the spelling forgive me). So with that being said, does anything in Star Wars even matter anymore? Like honestly.

By this logic…anybody in the OT could have just destroyed the Sith if they tRiEd HaRd EnOuGh. So I guess fuck the importance of Luke Skywalker and all the other survivors of Order 66? And I suppose by this logic none of the prequel Jedi or hell even Anakin doesn’t matter because anybody can just wield a lightsaber and tap into the Force if tHeY jUsT bElIeVeD iN tHeMsElVeS? Why does Rey matter when apparently anyone could have taken down the First Order and destroyed Palpatine when some fucking Mando could have just done the job of being Force sensitive doesn’t matter?

Like believe me guys, I am TRYING so hard not to be a hater but it truly makes me sad to see the one element of Star Wars I love so much (I.e. the Jedi Order and everything they do and stand for) just get picked apart and trashed over and over and over again. I just don’t understand it and I know I can’t be the only one feeling like this.

Also Ahsoka’s character right now is reminding me of Luke’s in TLJ where I feel like I’m seeing and hearing a completely different character and it’s heartbreaking when you’ve looked up and loved these heroes so much. Like for Gods sake can we settle the score in where Ahsoka stands with the Jedi? Is she or is she not? Because right now she’s doing a poor representation of all her mentors who have lost their lives staying true to themselves, Jedi who gave everything to protect and save lives. Now she seems to just go out of her way to scoff at the Order that raised her, similar to Luke dismissing the very thing that gave him hope in the OT.

As these new shows go on, it just makes the fall of the Jedi Order all the more tragic just seeing how their sacrifice and good will meant absolutely nothing. That’s why characters like Cal Kestis and Cere Junda are incredible. They stayed true to their Jedi values no matter what because that’s what the galaxy needs, heroes who care. Not heroes who have personal agendas.

[antianakin]

Is it just me or do you get a little exasperated/tired with how everyone seems to let Anakin do whatever he wants and there’s no repercussions?

Like when R2 got lost and Anakin admitted that he never wiped R2’s memories, ignore his mission to blow up Grievous’s spy post to look for him on the off chance he was there. All Obi-Wan seemed to do was sigh and shake his head.

I just wish he got more pushback and punishments instead of everyone letting things slide.

Oh definitely, sometimes. Like I get it, generally, in universe, that most of the time when Anakin does something sort-of stupid that it tends to work out anyway and the Jedi seem to work from a position of "let them learn from their own mistakes rather than punishing them for making a mistake" which is good and I like that. But Anakin so rarely sees any real CONSEQUENCES for his choices, even if it's just natural consequences as opposed to an imposed punishment, that he never seems to ACTUALLY learn anything from said mistakes and instead just continues to believe he was in the right.

With the R2 example, the listening post blows up in the end and he gets R2 back. Some of his men die, but Ahsoka and Rex (who are the only ones he actually cares about of the group he brought in) both live, so while there ARE consequences to his choice, they aren't consequences that matter TO ANAKIN. So what Anakin learns from this mission isn't that he needs to have better security regarding his droid, or that sometimes he needs to let go of the people he cares about in favor of the larger mission, but just that he was RIGHT. He CAN do it all, he CAN save the people he loves AND get the mission done, so why SHOULDN'T he try to have everything he wants and assume it'll just... work out for him.

And from the Jedi's perspective here, the mission is, essentially, a success. There isn't necessarily any good reason for a "punishment" of sorts. Obi-Wan makes it clear he doesn't approve of Anakin's choices regarding R2 and he DID try to order Anakin to do certain things regardless of his feelings, Anakin just didn't follow them and technically Obi-Wan got the result he wanted anyway, so there's very little Obi-Wan can really say or do other than what he already has. In AOTC, Obi-Wan's entire arc is about recognizing that Anakin is an adult now and that the next step in both of their journeys is to learn to let Anakin make his own mistakes and just hope that Obi-Wan has trained him well enough to both avoid particularly catastrophic mistakes and allow him to learn from the mistakes he DOES make so he can continue to be a better Jedi as a result. Obi-Wan has to let go, step back, and LET Anakin make those mistakes and just have faith that he's done enough. We see that continue in TCW, not just with Obi-Wan, but with some of the other Jedi as well, like Mace and Yoda and Plo sometimes. They all KNOW Anakin's doing stupid shit sometimes, they KNOW Anakin struggles with a lot of things, and we do see them coming up to try to talk to him and give him advice more than once, but their philosophy isn't to punish him for struggling, but rather to have faith that he'll make it THROUGH the struggle and do better.

So while I don't necessarily wish he got more punishments in canon, because I do think the Jedi are actually making the right, healthy choice regarding the choices they KNOW ABOUT, I do wish he had more NATURAL consequences for his actions that involve things that are actually meaningful to him.

For example, while this would never have happened for obvious narrative continuity reasons, I wish Padme had actually stuck to her guns about staying broken up/separated during the Clovis arc. I wish that his response to what happened with Clovis had frightened her enough to actually cause the relationship to end because she doesn't honestly know when he'll turn that anger on her.

In an AU version of events, I feel like the Jedi learning about the Tusken massacre might've caused more natural consequences in the sense that the Jedi would suddenly see Anakin VERY differently and lose a lot of that faith they're choosing to have in him by this point because holy shit that is a MASSIVE loss of control that DOES require more of a response than a slap on the wrist. Like they wouldn't necessarily punish him, but they might remove him from the front lines, they might remove Ahsoka as his Padawan (even if it's just temporarily), they might insist that he go to some sort of meditative retreat and see some mind healers until they can be sure that he's stable enough to take up certain duties again. I imagine Ahsoka's view of him might change pretty drastically if she learned about that, especially with how young she is at the time, and maybe she chooses never to return to his tutelage even if she ultimately does forgive him.

And of course none of this even touches how I feel about consequences for his choices from Order 66 and beyond. People more sympathetic to him would probably say that losing three limbs and being forced into the Vader suit and "losing Padme" are all natural consequences and that these are all "enough" for what he's done. But I just... can't agree. But he also manages to get his son's unconditional love and forgiveness. He manages to get OBI-WAN AND YODA'S unconditional love and forgiveness. He manages to be considered SO REDEEMED that he becomes a Force Ghost and CHEATS DEATH just so he can... what? Say goodbye to Luke for a second time or something? As a reward for doing the BARE MINIMUM of being a decent person and just not letting his son get murdered in front of him? Cool, great, give him the "not as big of a jerk as he could've been" award. He manages to get Ahsoka's love and forgiveness for everything he's done as per the Ahsoka show, and even gets almost completely exonerated for his choices by having them get brushed off as "meant to be" or whatever. Rex never seems to get told the truth about him as of current canon so Anakin gets to live with the nice knowledge that Rex presumably died thinking he was a hero.

So, sure, he gets a few consequences for his choices, but he ends up getting nearly everything he wants in the end. The loss of the Jedi doesn't actually matter to him, the loss of the Republic DEFINITELY doesn't matter to him, he can deal with pain, he's still ridiculously powerful, and while he lost Padme he gets Luke. The consequences he gets are almost all entirely meaningless, and he gets more rewards that DO mean something to him for the absolute bare minimum than he gets real consequences for the absolutely horrific atrocities he commits.

This is why I love the Kenobi show so much because that show gave me THREE WHOLE PEOPLE who chose to leave him behind. Reva, obviously, hates him and never actually forgives him for what he's done even though she ultimately has to let go of her anger so she doesn't become him. Leia obviously never meets Anakin and isn't letting go of him because she doesn't want to associate herself with someone like him, but she DOES go through an entire arc where she decides that the only parents she needs are the Organas, and even when Obi-Wan tells her what gifts she's inherited from Anakin and Padme, she clearly intentionally chooses to associate ALL OF THOSE THINGS with Bail and Breha instead because THEY'RE the parents SHE chose. And of course, then there's Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan who feels so guilty still for what Anakin's become and the part he played in it and who tries to apologize for the things he does and doesn't know about, but who ultimately realizes that he never failed Anakin, Anakin failed HIM, and the best thing Obi-Wan can do is walk away and leave Anakin behind for good. Anakin made his choices and nothing Obi-Wan can do will keep him from CONTINUING to make those choices now, so it's better to focus on the people he CAN help and leave Anakin to wallow in his own darkness. There is no forgiveness for Anakin in this show, not once. Obi-Wan's reaction isn't "there's good in him still" but "what good might still be there isn't something he's acting on so it doesn't really matter anymore."

And, if we believe that this was a real confrontation that happened, means that Anakin finally got a REAL FUCKING CONSEQUENCE in that show. He spends the ENTIRE SHOW hunting for Obi-Wan and obsessing over Obi-Wan and in the end, not only does he lose to Obi-Wan AGAIN, not only does Obi-Wan NOT get broken down into darkness, but Obi-Wan WALKS AWAY FROM HIM. Again. And this time it's not because Anakin is dying but because Obi-Wan is deciding that Anakin NO LONGER MATTERS TO HIM. Obi-Wan cannot forgive the person Anakin has chosen to become. Obi-Wan isn't going to waste his time and effort on Anakin anymore, he isn't going to waste his LIFE feeling guilty for the choices ANAKIN MADE anymore. He's cutting Anakin out of his life from now on and just... leaving him behind. And of course at the end, Palpatine tells him he's not allowed to hunt for Obi-Wan anymore at all. So Anakin ultimately gets NOTHING THAT HE WANTS in this story, the one thing that seems to mean something to him gets ripped away from him in more than one way, and I LOVE THAT.

I just wish we GOT more of those kinds of stories outside of this one show. Because I get people letting things slide during the clone wars era, most of his mistakes there are comparatively smaller, but uh. Genocide and mass enslavement aren't things that I think ANYONE should let slide and too many people are doing so in canon at this point, which is why I want more stories about the people who DON'T or CAN'T forgive him for what he's done. More Revas, please.

[maulfucker]

If you look at my blog it might seem like I only care about Satine as an accessory to my pet toxic yaoi ship, but I do actually care about her as a character who could've been so much more interesting than the very basic characterization they gave her. I've said this before and I maintain it - she should've been a pacifist with a gun. defending that pacifism applies to institutions and governments not to individuals. she should've worn mandalorian armor and she should've kept her blasters eternally set to stun but still visibly carried blasters. she should've punched pre vizsla in the face. she should've punched maul in the face. she should've been padmé's idol, a role model for what she could've been. not impulsive and lovesick like padmé, not willing to risk her life or forgive anything for love like padmé, but a powerful politician who cared for her people and her culture and wouldn't hesitate to pick up a blaster if she had to.

[lieutenant-teach]

I don’t understand people shitting on ‘Obi-Wan Kenobi’ and ‘The Book of Boba Fett’. Loved both series. I found them quite exciting – both were interesting (rewatched recently), lovely character development, good acting. I don’t even have a lot of qualms with the plots. Yes, probably pacing should’ve been better, but in general – very positive impression from both series. Unlike from ‘Ahsoka’ when absolutely fine characters from previous projects become unlikable as people (looking at Ahsoka ‘attachments are ok and Jedi kinda suck, only I’m perfect’ Tano and Sabine ‘fuck everything and everyone – I nullify Ezra’s sacrifice, and also I act like an insolent moody teenager at my 30s’ Wren), and as a whole, I found ‘Ahsoka’ boring. ‘The Acolyte’ – notorious for disjointed actions, flip-flopping motivations and shitting on previously established almost 45-year-old canon.

‘OWK’ features authentic Star Wars atmosphere. It was captivating to follow Obi-Wan’s change, same as Reva’s and Leia’s. I was touched by the moment with Darth Vader’s broken mask when we see Anakin’s face peeking out of it and his voice teetering on edge of Anakin’s natural and Vader’s mechanical, showing that we shouldn’t distinguish these two (as Disney loves now) – they’re one. Almost shed a tear at Jedi symbol scribblings on walls – representation that for lots of common citizens Jedi are still a symbol of hope (that, as we know, will come). Owen and Beru, Bail and Breha – caring and loving parents for their respective nephew and daughter. Obi-Wan coming back from his depression and finding hope again, relieving his heart of burden of smth that wasn’t his fault. Agrh, lovely.

‘TBOBF’ shares Star-Wars’y Tatooinian atmosphere with ‘OWK’ – except episodes of ‘The Mandalorian’. Frankly, I felt put off by a sudden change in color scheme – from warm sandy to cold metallic (ep.5-6). I really think the creatives should have focused on Boba alone – tell more about his relationships with his new associates and with the town citizens, could’ve touched slavery problem (if he did anything with it, I’d love if he did), how he holds his business. Also instead of following Mando (who has his own series!!!) I’d enjoy talking more about Boba’s past, his relationship with his father’s legacy and how he feels about leaving it behind, if he identifies himself as a Mandalorian or a Tusken or his own thing, how he feels about his clone ancestry… Lots of interesting themes to explore. I loved his character development, I adore that he’s not depicted as this heartless hunter from the books. Also he should’ve been given more agency in his ruling (the bigger part is done by Fennec). But still – I rewatch his episodes with pleasure.

[mustbethursdayy]

How I’m feeling about The Acolyte. (I’m not watching it.)

[azurecanary]

I love the prequel flashbacks, i love the Hayden voiceovers, i love Ahsoka continuing Anakin's legacy whether she likes it or not, i love how this character is being treated just as Star Wars™️ as the other prequel characters are, i love it i love it i love it.

[maidenvault]

During my last rewatch of the prequels I was actually shocked by how much I've misremembered or decontextualized certain moments in my mind because of how they're often talked about in fandom as showing the Jedi as too arrogant, too bureaucratic, generally just burying their heads in the sand while everything goes bad etc. So I'm gonna try to address every individual scene that typically gets brought up to argue that this is an actual theme in Lucas's portrayal of the Order.

The Council doesn't take Qui-Gon's account of meeting a Sith seriously.

Mace and Ki Adi Mundi do both express doubt this guy could be a Sith. (Understandably! Historically they've never known Sith to be able to hide their existence, and for them to have survived totally in secret for a thousand years is a pretty wild thing for Qui-Gon to be so sure of.)

BUT Yoda admits that the dark side is hard to see, and Mace assures Qui-Gon they'll do everything to find out the identity of the attacker. Later he's ordered to go back to Naboo and try to draw out Maul to discover more. Qui-Gon accepts this and doesn't ask for backup. Why should he? He held his own against Maul before, and Maul's probably not gonna show himself again to face a ton of Jedi. They end up missing the chance to learn who trained Maul because of how things go down, but Qui-Gon's death isn't the result of the Council mishandling the situation.

At the funeral, Yoda says the presence of one Sith means there's another out there. They know they've got to be on guard now and will be, but they've got no more leads for now.

2. Qui-Gon's not here to free slaves.

There's this idea that slavery existing on Tatooine shows the Order is apparently too tied up doing shady things for self-interested politicians (footage not found) to help the people who really need it. But Padme's shocked to know the Skywalkers are slaves for a reason. The truth is there isn't a lot of slavery in the galaxy at this time because the Jedi have helped keep it that way for centuries only by working with the Republic. In TCW we see that Zygerrian slavers have a particular hatred of Jedi because they're literally The Anti Slavery People and did so much of the work to crack down on their trade. But Tatooine is controlled by the Hutts and they simply don't have the resources to start a war with them.

(And honestly, it's crazy how people talk like Qui-Gon's a monster for honestly and apologetically telling Anakin no, that's not why he's here. This is a child he's already indebted to and who has a hero-worshipping idea of Jedi, it would be fucked up for him not to be clear about how he can't help him and his mom.)

3. They doubt Dooku could be behind the assassination attempt.

This I understand shows the Jedi to be a little naive. But they knew Dooku as a good man, and at this point he and his followers are still putting on a show of wanting to secede for idealistic reasons (and a few of them, manipulated by Dooku, actually do have good intentions). Only later do the Jedi learn they're illegally building an army before they've even officially left the Republic and clearly have no interest in the peaceful resolution Padme's been advocating for. And they only find this out because they have Obi-Wan investigate the assassin and this very quickly leads him to Dooku.

4. "Arrogance, yes. A trait more and more common among Jedi. Even the older, more experienced ones."

In context, this line from Yoda is clearly not meant to be taken so seriously. Obi-Wan says he fears Anakin is too arrogant, and this is Yoda's light-hearted way of telling him not to be so hard on him. Part of training a Padawan is learning to trust them so they can grow, and Obi-Wan perhaps needs the reminder that he isn't done learning himself.

Of course Yoda saying this could be partly motivated by them having been caught off guard before by the existence of Darth Maul and the dark side clouding their awareness, as we're told repeatedly throughout the PT they know is a problem. But it's kind of contradictory to take this as confirmation that this is a serious fatal flaw of theirs. If someone acknowledges their own arrogance then they're aware of their ability to be wrong, which means they can't actually be that arrogant. If truly meant in a general sense and not just as a gentle reproof of Obi-Wan, it's a pretty self-deprecating comment coming from Yoda.

5. "If an item does not appear in our records, it does not exist."

Chief Librarian Jocasta Nu gives this haughty response to Obi-Wan looking for Kamino, a system that's not in the Jedi Archives. So being so overly confident in the infallible knowledge of the Jedi, he takes her word for it and totally drops this lead.

Except no, he goes to someone older and wiser to figure out what this actually means. And he and Yoda are forced to conclude that the unthinkable - a trusted person among them somehow had reason to erase information from the archive - must nonetheless be what happened. This is honestly an exception that proves the rule: Kamino, and we can assume only Kamino, is missing from the archive only because it was removed, which is so suspicious it just shows he must be on the right track to discovering something. Jocasta is kind of snooty about it but theirs obviously is supposed to be one of the most accurate and complete databases in the galaxy.

6. Obi-Wan doesn't believe what Dooku tells him about the Senate.

For one thing, in this conversation Dooku's lying about basically everything but this. And I can't ever stress enough that Palpatine is a threat unlike anything the Jedi have ever dealt with before, who's already taken control of so much before they even know they're fighting anything, so the idea that a Sith is controlling the Senate would be really hard for anyone to believe.

Still, we know Obi-Wan reports this to the Council anyway. But it's a vague statement and they still don't have any information to act on. Palpatine soon has them very busy putting out fires in the war, and naturally fighting the Separatists who are led by Sith seems the best way for them to get to the bottom of what exactly is going on with the dark side. And they do finally turn their attention to how power-hungry Palpatine is getting once the war is nearly over and they've got the bandwidth for it, and think about what they might have to do if he's the threat to their democracy they fear, but of course he's too many steps ahead of them all the time.

---

So basically, what we see the Jedi being so guilty of in these examples are thought crimes. When confronted with the crazy explanation that happens to be true, their instinctive reaction is "No, I don't think that's possible." And then they do their due diligence to uncover as much of the truth as they can anyway. And Yoda, the Grand Master of them all, is often the first to admit that their first assumptions could be wrong. But Palpatine wouldn't be a good villain if his moves were predictable and he couldn't get an advantage over the good guys - that's just how storytelling works sometimes and it's not that deep.

It honestly felt stupid typing so much of this out because it's 90% just describing what actually happens in these scenes. But I guess it's a lot to ask that people actually carefully watch the films they discuss. 😒

[starbeltconstellation]

I was literally gritting my teeth while Ahsoka was talking. Like??? You are literally blaming the people who were betrayed and killed??? I swear to God, I know she isn’t gonna be blaming Anakin when he shows up.

She’ll just be like: Sup. I’m totally over your crippling betrayal.

Narrator: She is so not over his crippling betrayal.

Pros of this episode: PURRGILS, LIVE-ACTION PURRGILS, PURRGILS PURRGILS EVERYWHERE

Cons of this episode: Jedi victim blaming has escalated to claiming that the Jedi are responsible for Anakin's actions and Palpatine's genocide plans via millions of mind-controlled super soldiers because they.... *checks notes* didn't allow in enough people who are weak at using the Force.

[cinna-wanroll]

The Twinkification of Obi-Wan Kenobi

Hi everyone! I have emerged from the abyss to posit an opinion and analysis about something that has been ongoing in my corner of the fandom for some time now and I just wanted to share my thoughts. Please note that this is not meant to be a call-out post. If you have made references to Obi-Wan being a twink, we are cool, we simply have a difference of opinion! As always this blog is an open space where people from across the fandom are welcomed and loved.

With that being said:

The Co-Opting of "Twink"

It isn't uncommon to come across the term "twink" nowadays while scrolling the social medias. In fact, there are several videos referencing men, both real and fictional, using "twink" as a kind of affectionate endearment.

Is there a big, beefy man who shows his emotions in your favorite TV show? Chances are he has been called a twink.

Looking at a cute post of a straight couple? There is a chance the woman has captioned her post with: I love my twink boyfriend! :)

Is there a trans man on your for you page? Peer in the comments: chances are he, too, has people teeming in his comments to call him a twink.

Let us be clear: this is not what the word "twink" means.

The term "twink" is a queer term that has become so mangled and co-opted by cis, straight people (especially women) that it has become misused across the internet. So what is it, exactly? "Twink" is a queer identifier. Traditionally, the term refers to gay men who are:

Thin

Not very muscular

Not hairy

Young

Of course, there is always room for nuance. Also, there are so many layers to this conversation I have not and will not address fully. However, the main purpose of this conversation is to discuss its relation to Obi-Wan Kenobi.

So You Want to Woobify a Warrior

Most of the time when I see someone refer to Obi-Wan as a twink, it is in reference to mid-thirties, mid or post-war Obi-Wan. I am not going to address sexuality here because I am a firm believer in allowing people their interpretations of characters' sexualities. Instead, here are some photos of Obi-Wan Kenobi during and a bit after the era previously mentioned, and of his actor, Ewan McGregor:

Here are some things of note: Ewan and Obi-Wan are not especially petite. They are muscular, hairy, and visibly middle-aged. Or at least, visibly older than 20s.

In Karen Miller's Wild Space, Bail Organa throws up in his hands out of fear when Obi-Wan is having hallucinations and moves to attack him.

In Christie Golden's Dark Disciple, he punches a droid in the face and it stumbles back.

My point here is that Obi-Wan is intimidating. He underwent years of rigorous training, fought in battle after battle, and is an expert in martial arts. The chances of him escaping that with the appearance of being boyish, early 20s, skinny, and not muscular seem... slim. War does not typically have anti-aging effects.

I once saw someone on this app make a point that because Obi-Wan is portrayed as the more intuitive and emotionally regulated character in contrast to Anakin's brash violence, he is perceived as more feminine. Therefore, he is more "coddleable." And, furthermore, the "feminine" narrative lends itself to the stereotypical parts of the label of twink. (Again, there is a deeper conversation to be had there. I am generalizing).

Unless Obi-Wan has been extensively malnourished, shaved, and de-aged, I don't see sense in seeing him as a twink.

The part of all this with even more implications associated is that I see a lot of this mentioned in relationship to Obi-Wan being in a relationship with Cody. There is a lot of comparison there, usually positioning Cody as the strong, indestructible warrior of whom Obi-Wan is either envious of or saved by. The racist undertones there are infinite and have been addressed and readdressed, especially by POC in the fandom.

Anyways gorgeous people, this concludes my thoughts, as it is very late. I am hoping to be able to participate in Codywan First Kiss Bingo, but I was hit with the flu and have been working diligently to catch up in my uni classes. I love you all and wish you nothing but the best!

[raleighrador]

It’s obviously an over generalisation but broadly “pro Jedi” fics which also overlap extensively with “anti Anakin” are always so fascinating to me.

Typically they include a few commonalities:

1) Jedi are wholesome and well adjusted, including extensive mental health support and actually they’re totally chilled about relationships (romantic or familial) outside the order so long as you’re “normal” about it

2) Jedi are hyper competent at basically everything

Obi-Wan is of course the exemplar of both of those things

3) Anakin is definitively neither of those things. He’s murderous and angry and unbalanced and wildly incompetent. He’s losing fights, getting captured, messing up negotiations etc left and right.

We’re clearly often intended to conclude “and hence Anakin sucks” but what I’m always struck by is “why?”

If the Jedi and Obi-Wan specifically are the way these authors intend, why is Anakin the way he is?

The answer these fics imply is “evil is an essential component of character at birth” which is boring, gross, and very badly misunderstands the central thesis of Star Wars.

The answer I reach instead - no matter what the authors intend - is that the Jedi clearly aren’t anywhere near as competent and wholesome as you are characterising them to be. There is an inherent tension in the text between what you TELL me about the Jedi and what you SHOW me about the Jedi.

This is only exacerbated in fics where for whatever reason Anakin isn’t actually the Chosen One.

Because the canon answer why Anakin gets away with being Anakin is because he’s the best of the best and the council actually go pretty far out their way to not alienate him, in their own way.

i.e. instead of helping him they just tolerate his tantrums.

But if he isn’t competent and he isn’t the Chosen One…

It doesn’t seem very competent or wholesome to just let a random murder Jedi run around with no consequences.

It’s just a bit weird and nepotistic.

[moonsdrs]

moon! twenty-four she/they reality shifter

-`pinterest´-

conceptions are unlimited, they are reflections of the way

do not interact/follow if... you're racist, homophobic/transphobic or are an anti-shifter. share an s/o that is listed as a soulmate.

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༘⋆ l&o: svu dr — introduction post

in which i am —! a homicide detective based in baltimore trying to balance her recent promotion and new found romance with a pessimistic cop. (s/o. john munch)

༘⋆ mcu dr — introduction post

in which i am —! more info coming soon... (s/o. sam wilson)

༘⋆ modern fame dr — introduction post

in which i am —! a singer-songwriter who is making a name for herself. epitome of #ilovemybf (s/o. josh o'connor)

༘⋆ the santa clause dr — introduction post

in which i am noelle the executive elf! santa's unofficial (official in my books) favorite elf. lover of gingerbread and peppermint sticks. (s/o. bernard the elf)

༘⋆ star wars prequels dr — introduction post

in which i am solari eldo! a jedi padawan to master tahl who is aspiring to become a consular. traditional jedi until she isn't. (s/o. obi-wan kenobi)

༘⋆ zoey 101 dr — introduction post

in which i am —! more info coming soon... (s/o. chase matthews)

[gffa]

What are your thoughts regarding Jocasta Nu and the anti-Jedi sentiments raised against her because of her scene in Attack of the Clones.

She wasn't even mean about it! Was that scene there to show that the Jedi were a little too sure about themselves and had a touch of arrogance about thinking their Archives were complete? Yeah, sure, that's fine, it's hardly worth raking someone over the coals for, given that she was also shown to be warm and gentle in that scene where she talks about Dooku with Obi-Wan and all her scenes in TCW were of her always ready to help anyone who came into the Archives. TCW is just as canon to George Lucas as the movies are, so you can't divorce that context from her. To raise anti-Jedi sentiments because of one librarian being like, "Let me come over and help you, dear. Well, if it's not in our system, then it doesn't exist, now if you'll excuse me, there's a child over here that needs my help as well." (She literally walks off to go over to another Padawan.)?? Like THAT'S your case against the Jedi?? She didn't even insult anyone else! She didn't even sneer or click her tongue or give anyone a dirty look! Let Jocasta Nu be kind of full of herself and not have to have it be something to drag all the Jedi through the mud over, like people can be kinda annoying or kinda full of themselves as a sign that they're not perfect and they don't always know everything, but you don't have to make it And That's Why The Jedi Deserved Their Genocide. It doesn't have to be part of a major case against the Jedi, sometimes characters can just be. If the Jedi are allowed to be flawed, let them be flawed without having it have to be a talking point about how the entire Jedi Order is mistaken about everything. LET HER JUST BE. LET 👏 JOCASTA 👏 NU 👏 BE 👏 KIND 👏 OF 👏 A 👏 BITCH 👏 I SUPPORT JOCASTA NU A LITTLE BIT OF A BITCH RIGHTS

[david-talks-sw]

How the narrative framed Mace Windu, back in 2002

So there's this 2002 book written by Marcus Hearn, edited by J.W. Rinzler, titled Attack of the Clones - The Illustrated Companion. It was released a month before Episode II was released.

AKA, before EU material and anti-Jedi fanon could publicly reframe the meanings of the film... and before more recent narratives could reinterpret the character of Mace as a robotic, protocol-worshipping stickler who never bends the rules (when evidence shows he's anything but).

So how does Marcus Hearn - "untainted" by all the above factors, armed only with the Prequel films and their screenplays - frame the character of Mace Windu?

MACE & ANAKIN

Fandom: "Mace hated Anakin from Day #1 and never trusted him. Mace was probably jealous as he always thought he was the Chosen One, not Anakin!"

Attack of the Clones' - The Illustrated Companion:

"Jedi Masters Yoda and Mace Windu lead the High Council in rejecting Qui-Gon's application to train Anakin, 'He is too old,' concludes Mace Windu. 'There is already too much anger in him.'

Hearn explains that the problem with Anakin wasn't that he was just too old, it's that because of that age he had become too filled with fear and anger to a point where taking on the Jedi training would be twice as hard for him as it already was for everyone else.

Hearn doesn't chastise Mace for this initial decision. On the contrary, he adds more context to it by using a line from the screenplay to explain where Mace is coming from.

He also goes further into Mace's view of Anakin throughout the book:

"[Mace] over-estimates Anakin Skywalker, paying little credence to Obi-Wan's protestations that the boy is too confused and disturbed to be dispatched on a solo mission."

"The Jedi Council is aware of Anakin's exceptional skills, and Mace Windu believes Anakin may fulfill the prophecy that says a being will one day bring balance to the Force. But Anakin still has a lot to learn…"

He's basically stating that Mace believes in Anakin, but that doing so is a mistake. Which, to be fair, considering how things turn out for Mace and the Jedi... is kinda true!

Mace's problem with Anakin is almost the opposite of what most of the fandom projects onto him.

It's not that he dislikes Anakin, on the contrary, he holds Anakin in too high of an esteem and is overlooking Anakin's glaring flaws because "hey, Anakin's the Chosen One. He's got this!"

That's not the only flaw Mace has, according to Hearn.

MACE'S (and the Jedi's) ONLY REAL FLAW

Fandom: "Mace and the Jedi had become too emotionally detached, they had lost touch with the common folk by spending too much time in their ivory tower. They focused so much on being selfless that they forgot how to care, they've become a bunch of elitist, righteous sticklers for protocol who care more about upholding laws than actually helping the people those laws are meant to protect!"

Attack of the Clones' - The Illustrated Companion:

"Although he is a senior member of the Jedi Council, little in Mace Windu's experience has prepared him for the looming threats of the dark side of the Force and Count Dooku's Separatists."

"Mace Windu's faith in the Jedi to protect the Republic is admirable, but it also blinds him to the true scale of the growing menace. He is aware that the dark side is growing, but still allows himself to be too easily reassured about the Separatists' ambitions. [...] Mace fatally misjudges Count Dooku, refusing to believe he could be behind any attempt on Senator Amidala's life. 'Dooku was once a ledi, he tells Padmé. 'He couldn't assassinate anyone. It's not in his character.'"

"Mace Windu's strengths are, in many ways, qualities shared by the Jedi Order as a whole - he is an accomplished diplomat and a fine swordsman. Such skills have served the Jedi well in their role as the galaxy's peacekeepers for a thousand generations. But such skills are not enough to save the Jedi from their own complacency, and the tumultuous changes that threaten to wipe them out forever."

Hearn perfectly grasps what the Jedi's only real flaw is, in George Lucas' intended narrative: they were unprepared, complacent, they were blind... and now they're stuck playing catch-up.

But when he's saying that, he's not blaming them for it. Because this flaw doesn't derive from some sense of elitism or superiority... it is an inevitable consequence of their qualities.

They've managed to stay out of politics as neutral diplomats... ... but that makes them vulnerable to the Sith's plot, which primarily takes place within the political arena, where they have no control or experience.

They are painfully aware of the corruption in the Senate... ... but as a result, they're too quick to trust the Separatist's talking points as well-meaning and genuine, instead of seeing the movement for what it really is: greedy big business trying to become the government.

They trust and agree with Dooku, believe in what he publicly stands for (after all this man used to be one of the wisest and kindest members of the Jedi Order, Mace's friend, Yoda's Padawan, etc)... ... but as such, they are blind to his true nature, that of a treacherous Sith who'd stoop to orchestrating assassinations.

The Jedi have their guard up, knowing that there's another Sith Lord still out there, orchestrating in the shadows... ... but they can't really find him, because the Dark Side has clouded everything, so only darksiders are able to sense the possibilities of the future! Them serving the good side is screwing them over, in this situation.

Flaws such as being too trusting or being unprepared, letting your guard down because you've established a 1000-year-peace, are flaws that kind, noble characters such as the Jedi are bound to have.

They may be flaws, but they aren't faults. And considering the way he describes Mace and the Jedi, it's clear Hearn grasps the nuance.

MACE'S RELUCTANCE TO JOIN THE WAR

Fandom: The Jedi joined the war out of arrogance, they thought they could swashbuckle their way through the problem and win, instead they didn't realize that they lost the very moment they joined.

Attack of the Clones' - The Illustrated Companion:

"Mace Windu believes in the Jedi as keepers of the peace - not as soldiers - but there comes a point when he reluctantly realizes that it is time to take affairs out of the realm of diplomacy."

Mace and the Jedi didn't want to start a war. If you read the script for Attack of the Clones, Mace and Bail keep grasping at straws to not engage with the Separatists up til the very end.

But when you consider that...

the Geonosians are about to execute Obi-Wan without a trial,

and the Separatists leaders have been unmasked as a coalition of unscrupulous corporate assholes who are willing to plunge the galaxy in chaos just to make more money.

... at some point, the Jedi have to come to terms with the fact that Separatist leadership (and Sidious) won't accept diplomacy because they want a conflict. A conflict will make them all richer. And the Republic, well, they're just dying to go to war too.

So the Jedi go save Obi-Wan and capture Dooku, hoping that in doing so, the conflict ends before it begins. They succeed in the former goal... but fail the latter one.

The Clone War has begun.

From there on, the Jedi are drafted to lead the war. Which is why - as Hearn points out - Mace was so reluctant to take action in the first place. The Jedi are ambassadors, they are not built for war... and now they've been forced into one.

Mace is by no means a perfect character... but he's someone doing his best. Just like Obi-Wan, just like Yoda, and all the other Jedi.

Overtime, Windu's character has been dumbed down to either "that one angry black man" or "the dogmatic emotionless dick who hated Anakin"... and I really think that that's not what we were meant to see him as.

The way Marcus Hearn (who also wrote The Cinema of George Lucas) refers to him is a much more charitable interpretation of how others (ahem Filoni ahem) do, nowadays.

[grifonecoronato]

Grown-Up Star Wars

IMO Andor, Obi-Wan Kenobi, and The Acolyte form a kind "trilogy" of shows that explore Star Wars from a more mature storytelling perspective, as all three examine specific themes deeper than other projects have attempted before.

By this I mean that they not only present a character struggling with something or having had something happen to them in their backstory, but also delve into the nuance, contradictions, and consequences of that character's motivations and choices.

For example, Obi-Wan Kenobi explored child abuse, forgiveness and trauma, themes that were also touched on, but not quite explored in Jedi: Fallen Order.

Andor explored anti-fascist resistance, which delves deeper than what's typically seen in stories set during the Empire era, which are mostly about fighting the authoritarian bad guys than fascism explicitly.

And The Acolyte asks its audience to examine the complexities inherent in emotions, such as regret, repression, longing, forgiveness, and wrath. These are present in the Prequel Trilogy (Revenge of the Sith, especially), but a lot of their weight is undercut by how quickly the stories must resolve for the film's run time (Anakin's leap from "I must save Padme" to "must massacre all teachers and children" is lightning fast).

I think that the show-runners of all three shows wanted to treat the fans like adults. Maybe they hoped the fandom was ready for it.

[antianakin]

Also, I had another question for you, if you don’t mind giving your thoughts on it: I recently came across a post criticizing Obi-Wan and Yoda for not telling Luke that Anakin was ‘Darth Vader’: AKA: his father. And I think it’s been kind of established that they were going to tell Luke when they felt he was ready, but when things spiraled out of control at the beginning of ‘A New Hope’ that they thought it would just be too painful? And like… OBVIOUSLY they are not telling Luke he needs to kill Anakin to be cruel. They’re telling him Anakin WILL force Luke’s hand into having to defend himself because Anakin will try to slice Luke’s fucking head off. Lol.

But anyway, the reason this tumblr post I came across bothered me is because it was really vindictive and bitter in accusing Yoda… of wanting revenge. Like… saying THAT’S the reason Yoda tried to get Luke to kill Anakin. And not… idk… the fact the galaxy was on fire. 🤦‍♀️ Essentially, they admitted that what the Jedi went through was a genocide. But instead of showing SYMPATHY, they turned it around by saying that Yoda was CRUEL and demonizing him even if he DID want revenge… as a GENOCIDE victim. And it just felt… SO gross. 😭🤢 Because it was OBVIOUS what they cared about the most was Anakin’s pain in the suit and Luke’s conflict with killing Anakin. But Yoda being a GENOCIDE VICTIM meant nothing to them. And that isn’t even the REASON Yoda and Obi-Wan say Luke may have to kill Anakin! It’s because Anakin is dangerous and burning the galaxy down with Palpatine at that point in time. Essentially; they believe it’s for the greater good.

But what REALLY grinds my gears is how even if their theory about Yoda WAS true… they would demonize the GENOCIDE VICTIM over wanting justice/revenge over the actual guy who helped slaughter them. ����‍♀️🤢 It just… pissed me off SO much. Lol.

But anyway, you don’t have to give your thoughts if you don’t want to, but I always love hearing your take on backwards logic like this from radical Anakin/Anidala/anti Jedi fans (this was from a radical Anidala fan, which I guess makes sense now that I think about it why they didn’t care about the Jedi’s plight and just the Skywalker family’s pain).

Someone else sent me an ask about something very similar to this yesterday. My response is in the queue, so I don't want to completely overlap this. But whatever post generated these asks, I'm so glad I've curated my dash enough not to have to see it.

I think people seem to overestimate the amount of time Obi-Wan and Yoda have in which they could have told Luke about Vader.

Obi-Wan is a stranger to Luke for most of his life, something that generally gets explained away in other media as Owen not wanting Obi-Wan around, but it's not super clear in the films themselves why Obi-Wan has kept his distance for so long. But regardless, he has. And Obi-Wan DOES give Luke quite a lot of information that his aunt and uncle have been keeping from him in the immediate aftermath of them meeting in ANH. He tells him that his father was a Jedi who was "killed" by Darth Vader, and he tells him Darth Vader was his student and that Vader betrayed them all. The only thing missing is that these are the same people, but also this is their FIRST conversation about this and Obi-Wan is pretty clearly trying to gently bring Luke into this wider world he's never known and not just drop a bunch of massive bombshells on his shoulders. He's also trying to convince Luke to leave Tatooine with him, and it likely won't help to tell him that his father is a traitor who is currently still an incredible danger to him.

And then Owen and Beru die and Luke is in mourning and Obi-Wan's primary focus is on getting to Alderaan and not throwing more pressure on Luke than he can handle in a situation where he's already going to feel under a lot of pressure. And then he dies. And while Obi-Wan is occasionally able to speak to Luke after he dies, it seems to be pretty sporadic at best and he can't stick around for very long until after Luke gets to Dagobah. So his ability to have a nice long conversation about Vader is incredibly minimal.

And finally there's Luke's time on Dagobah where he does seem to have more ready access to both Obi-Wan and Yoda, but Yoda is still seeing a LOT of reasons to keep this information from Luke. Luke struggles with believing in himself, he takes a weapon into the cave, he's reckless and impulsive, etc. And there's no telling just how long the two of them have together and it's more important to get Luke as trained as possible so that he stays alive (and also so that when it IS time for him to learn this information, he can HANDLE IT).

And that's it. There's always bigger priorities and good reason for both Yoda and Obi-Wan to believe that Luke isn't quite ready to learn this given how painful of a truth it would be. And you know what? When Luke IS given this information, he nearly gives up on everything as a reaction. He wasn't ready. Yoda and Obi-Wan were right.

The other ask I answered is more about Obi-Wan telling Luke he has to prepare himself for the super likely possibility that he'll have to kill his father, so I won't go into that much here. It's weird to put accusations on Yoda since, to my memory, Yoda and Luke never HAVE a conversation about Vader, let alone one where Yoda tells Luke to kill him. Is the argument supposed to be that Yoda kept the information from Luke so that Luke would always hate Anakin and therefore be more likely to kill him?

But. Yeah. The kinder, more objective answer to this is like you said, they're preparing him for the possibility that Anakin will try to kill HIM and so he might have to defend himself. They're preparing him for the possibility that Anakin CANNOT BE SAVED because he's shown exactly no inclination to stop murdering people for the last twenty some-odd years, even when faced with people he used to claim to love. Don't lose a thousand people just to save one. If Luke refuses to do what has to be done and dies as a result (or is turned into a Sith himself), the entire galaxy suffers. Leia MIGHT be able to pick up the torch after him (although she'd never have a living master to help her train), but it would probably take YEARS before she could manage to do what Luke could not.

The more bitter answer to this from someone who's not a fan of Anakin is that Anakin deserves it. Like you said, I'm more inclined to feel sympathy for the people who are genocide victims wanting justice or even vengeance for what was done to them than I am inclined to feel sympathy for the person who committed said genocide. It's why I feel a hell of a lot more sympathy for Reva than I ever have for Anakin (Reva also stops killing people WAY earlier than Anakin and shows more empathy towards people she's not personally related to than Anakin ever does). I'm over here HOPING that suit hurts him, I HOPE that he struggles to breathe every day, I hope his breath burns in his lungs every time air is pumped into him, I hope he feels that pain every moment of every day he has to stay alive. I could not give less of a shit about Anakin's pain. It's not even just the one genocide, either. Every single clone who dies after Order 66, their enslavement and loss of what little autonomy they had, can thank Anakin for what was done to them. And then he spends over TWENTY YEARS spreading pain and destruction and death across the galaxy. There are MILLIONS of lives gone exclusively because of Anakin. Anakin is DROWNING in the blood of the people he's killed. I hope it suffocates him. Even if Obi-Wan and Yoda DID want Luke to kill his father out of vengeance, I wouldn't blame them.

So yeah. Fuck Anakin. Who gives a shit if he's in pain. Luke is so lucky he didn't have to actually get to know his complete shit heel of a father and that his primary father figures ended up being Owen, Obi-Wan, and Yoda. Imagine how awful his life would've been if he'd actually had to live with Anakin as a father at any point. Luke dodged a bullet in so many ways.

This is why I don't engage with people like that anymore. There's so little point. I'm set in my ways and opinions now for the most part and they likely are, too. Arguing with them is just going to make everybody feel worse. I'd rather stay in my corner, even if I'm ranting in that corner.