#anti Karen traviss

[roseaesynstylae]

Star Wars: Republic Commando: Triple Zero, Chapter 2

"'I think your sergeant should be leaving all that to Coruscant Security,' said Captain Maze, who clearly didn't understand the situation well enough.

Typical ordinary ARC. Typical stubborn ARC."

You are really one to talk about stubbornness. Not, to be honest, that Maze comes across as particularly stubborn in this situation.

Also, hi, Maze! You're one of the characters in this series that I like (that aren't problematic faves) and who isn't ruined.

"Maze squared up. 'Look, Null, I don't know who your sergeant thinks he is, but you obey a general when he --'

'I don't have time for this.' Ordo brought his fist up hard and without warning right under Maze's chin, knocking him against the wall. The man swore and didn't go down, so Ordo hit him again, this time in the nose -- always demoralizing enough to stop someone dead, but nothing seriously damaging, nothing to cause lasting pain. He would never harm a brother if he could help it. 'And I only take orders from Kal Skirata.'

Jusik and Ordo sprinted the rest of the way to the speeder to make up lost time.

'Ordo...'

'Yes?'

'Ordo, you just flattened an ARC trooper.'

'He was delaying us.'

'But you hit him. Twice.'

'Not permanent harm done,' Ordo said, lifting his kama to slide over the pillion seat behind Jusik. He sealed his helmet. 'You can't convince Alpha ARCs of anything by rational argument. They're every bit as obtuse and impulsive as Fett, believe me.'"

Okay. In order.

Maze immediately zoomed to the top of my RepComm characters' list. Who does Kal Skirata think he is?

Only taking orders from Kal Skirata is one of the Nulls' biggest flaws. This may be shocking, dear, but the man is not always right. In fact, as the series goes on, we will see that he is wrong about a lot of things.

"Can't convince Alpha ARCs of anything by rational argument?' I think that applies to you.

In conclusion, Ordo, prove yourself better than your father and learn to be quiet.

(I want to like Ordo. Like, a lot. But he isn't making a great first impression.)

"'General, do you remember being taken from your parents?'"

Before I say anything else, I will direct this to Ordo: SHUT UP. I AM TRYING TO LIKE YOU. YOU ARE NOT HELPING.

Okay, first, that is really insensitive. Even putting aside the Jedi-Bashing, you don't just say that to someone. It isn't a question that will make him come to terms with himself (although in this series...), it's a question that makes you look like an asshole.

"Taken?" Taken implies kidnapping. Taken implies stealing. I will be dissecting this in a future chapter (which also involves Ordo), but for now, I will just say this.

JEDI ARE NOT BABY-STEALERS.

I swear, I am going to tattoo this on Kal Skirata's forehead so he has to see it whenever he looks in the mirror.

Jedi-Bashing: 5

"'No, I remember being taken from my family. Just being taken. Not my family though.'

'And what makes you so attached to us?' Ordo chose his words carefully, knowing precisely what attachment meant to a Jedi. He knew the answer anyway. 'And doesn't that worry you?'

Jusik paused for a moment and then turned with an anxious smile. Jedi weren't supposed to feel powerful emotions like vengeance or love or hate. Ordo could now see that conflict on the boy's face daily."

*Deep, deep, deep breaths*

Okay.

Now that I've had my first proper rage, I will merely say a few edifying comments.

Attachment is not love.

Attachment in Star Wars is not a good thing.

There needs to be a flashing neon sign saying the above in every Star Wars writer's office.

I don't believe I need to say anything else.

Jedi-Bashing: 8

Shut the Fuck Up, Kal Ordo: 2

"'Save your sympathy for the troopers,' Ordo said. 'Nobody uses us.'"

No one uses them, either. Not the way you put it anyway. Go ahead, tell Rex or Cody or Wolffe they're being used.

I dare you.

"'I'll be cautious,' Jusik said, meshing his fingers in front of him to do that little Jedi bow that Ordo found fascinating. Sometimes Jusik was one of the boys, and sometimes he was ancient, wisely sober, another creature entirely."

Jedi-Bashing: 10

"'Fifteen dead.' Skirata clearly didn't care about civilian casualties, traffic disruption, or structural damage."

If it was anyone else, any other writer, any other book, I wouldn't be too bothered by this. But given Kal Skirata's track record...

Jedi-Bashing: 8

Mando-Shilling: 1

It's a Man's World: 1

Shut the Fuck Up, Kal: 2

Deltas, Move Out: 0

Mird, My Beloved: 0

Is This The Bad Batch?: 2

Main Post

This is the second chapter, people. Second chapter, and I've raged like the Hulk and wanted to strangle a character I literally just met (something that usually only happens with Kal Skirata). I'm trying to be fair and give everyone a fair shake, but this... Maybe it'll get better.

[lieutenant-teach]

Trying Karen Traviss 'Republic Commando' (critical)

I’ve read loads of criticism on Karen Traviss ‘Republic Commando’ books. Despite being weaponized with knowledge of her treatment of Jedi and Mandalorians, decided to read anyway, because clones! Though I’m in the camps of ‘anti-Mandoclones’ and ‘pro-jedi’, and from my previous reading experience I know my whole being protests when I see even an ounce of Jedi-criticism both in books and fics, I still thought – maybe, at least the plot will be interesting? And clones!

Well… I lasted about 10 pages (was reading from an e-book, so it’s hard to tell) of the first novel of the series, ‘Hard contact’.

I’d even ignore anti-Jedi stuff that starts from the very beginning – as if I would believe the Jedi would treat the clones as ‘created for war, so they must be used for war’.

First thing that started to turn me off – the treatment of common clones, ‘regs’. The main characters immediately began to smell disgustingly like The Bad Batch. They have special training, they see each other as ‘family’ – unlike these regular clones! They are even treated poorly by the ‘regs’, poor things! :(

The second – the language. A lot of Mando’a words that are referenced in the end of the book. Thanks to fics, I know several terms, but in next books I scrolled through – whole incomprehensible dialogues in Mando’a! Seriously?! 1st, technically uncomfortable, 2nd – disrespect to the readers.

And the main reason that made me delete all these books – it’s written boringly. Plain boringly. I guess it’s just her journalist-influenced style, but still – one more reason not to read her.

[blackkatmagic]

I have a baseline level of annoyance directed at Karen Traviss that exists at all times, but I am so annoyed at her 3-4 million clones estimation and how it's just turned into the fandom's canon. Like, the gffa is massive! Does she have any concept of space/numbers??? Because there were 70 million soldiers fighting in WWII alone, and if you multiply that by multiple worlds and multiple fronts and whole sectors of space with dozens or hundred of planets, 3-4 million people fighting across all of that territory is laughable, even if they are all technically supersoldiers. And that doesn't even account for losses, when we know from canon that there were losses of over 30k soldiers in a single day.

Just. The lack of logic is infuriating. Traviss pulled that number out of her ass, and fandom just rolling with it makes no sense if you think about it for even a few seconds.

[mysticaltora8276]

“Skirata didn't hold it against Palpatine for being a Sith. It wasn't a big deal for Mando'ade; they'd worked for Sith in the past, and they'd fared better with the Sith than they had with the Jedi.”

Yeah remind me why we’re supposed to root for the guy who’s okay with genocidal fascist Sith but hates Jedi because *checks notes* reasons that are entirely out of their control and xenophobia.

[blenderbender1811]

Fanfic: Did you ever hear of the Tragedy of Etain Tur-Mukan?

Me: No. Enlighten me.

Fanfic: She was a Jedi who fell in love with and married a clone, but she died in Order 66.

Me: Awww! That sounds sweet! And tragic! I'd like to see that. Was her husband forced to kill her or something?

Wookieepedia: She was killed when she jumped between some clones and some teenage/kid Padawans.

Me: Oh, cool, so she died a hero?

Wookieepedia: She did it to defend the clones.

Me: To....defend the CLONES? In ORDER 66? The time when clones were committing mass genocide??? Against HER CULTURE?

Wookieepedia: That'd be the ones!

Me: ....Okay, so, nothing of value was lost with her dying, got it. Who wrote this???

Me: Oh. I see. Her tragedy was being written by Karen Traviss. Fair enough, fandom, fair enough.

[roseaesynstylae]

Oh yeah. KT is, beyond all doubt, my most hated SW writer. I’m stuck in a toxic relationship with the RepComm novels where I keep trying to just abandon them and get them out of my head but just keep getting pulled back. She excels at creating deeply enraging characters (Kal Skirata, my beloathed). To put it in perspective, I’m only seven chapters into the second book and keep having to put it down and walk away because I just become too furious. These books are the first in my life where I’ve seriously considered writing hatefic where all her Mando Sues die.

The sad part is that there was potential in the RepComm series, the Mandalorian worldbuilding (when it isn’t glorifying the warrior/military aspects to the point of nausea) is decent, but all the potential was pissed down the drain by her Jedi-bashing, Mando-shilling, and disturbingly far right ranting. In my more charitable moments, I fantasize about a complete rewrite.

I am not going to waver from these opinions.

When a Star Wars writer engages with the material but not the narrative.

I'm writing a long post about the Jedi and the clone troopers and there's a whole section that I had to remove because it was too long:

Karen Traviss' take on the Jedi and the clones.

I already wrote about why Karen Traviss' take on the Jedi and Yoda doesn't track with what George Lucas had established in his narrative of the Prequels. Since then, I've been able to do more research.

It's no secret that one of the reasons Traviss listed for criticizing the Jedi in the Expanded Universe books she wrote is their treatment of the clones (or at least what she understood it to be).

In 2008, she wrote a now-deleted blog post about it (it was really long, so I'm only including the part relevant to my point, if you want the full context you can look it up, this is old stuff).

So if you ask me, in the above quote, Traviss is essentially doing the equivalent of saying:

"Batman is a psycho elitist who beats up the mentally ill and indoctrinates kids, turning them into child soldiers for his unending crazy vigilante war on crime, and if you can't recognize that then you scare the living crap out of me."

Like... you can argue that, and a couple of comics have argued that.

But by and large, the general consensus is that Batman is a superhero, the Robins are his sons and daughter, and the "mentally ill" are in fact the Joker and Two-Face aka mass murderers.

So if you make that argument, that's you applying your real-life values and conclusions to a narrative that deliberately doesn't acknowledge those points, in-universe, in order to tell the story it wants to tell.

It's counting on your suspension of disbelief, defined as "the avoidance—often described as willing—of critical thinking and logic in understanding something that is unreal or impossible in reality, such as something in a work of speculative fiction, in order to believe it for the sake of enjoying its narrative."

The Jedi accepting the clones and the clones being slaves isn't a "delicate point". It's barely a point at all!

It's never addressed in the film (because of course it isn't, the Prequels are about Anakin and the Republic, not the clones).

It's only addressed once by Slick, an unreliable narrator, in The Clone Wars.

That's it. Hell, in 2008, when The Clone Wars writer Henry Gilroy was asked to comment on the relationship between clones and Jedi, he explicitly said he'd "rather not get into" that particular point.

I recently got Mythmaking: Behind the Scenes of 'Attack of the Clones' and nowhere is that detail touched on by Lucas at any point.

Nobody wants to touch on that point with a 10ft pole, because it's not relevant to the story.

So while Traviss acknowledges the Jedi are fictional characters, she doesn't follow that thread through to the end by acknowledging that fictional characters don't have free will, they must abide by the story and the whim of the writer.

She's engaging with the material, but refusing to engage with the narrative. She's having her cake and eating it too.

My reason for saying all this is that in the book Star Wars on Trial, she elaborates on her thought process upon discovering this detail.

Shortly before to this, she acknowledges twice that she knew nothing about Star Wars, beside seeing the original films in her youth.

Another writer who saw the new films and saw Mace Windu argue against there being a war...

... the worry on his face at the prospect of the Jedi being thrown at the Separatists...

... and the sheer melancholy on Yoda's face upon announcing the Clone War had begun...

... might have instead wondered how the Jedi, so opposed to war, could've ended up being generals.

Because while we don't see the Jedi openly protest the use of the clones in the film... they're not exactly giddy about it, either. All they can do is watch powerlessly as it gets voted by the Senate.

"The Jedi are there. But the Jedi aren't really allowed to be involved in the political process. They're there, but they can't suddenly step up and say, "No, no. You can't do that." They have to let the political process go." - George Lucas, Attack of the Clones, Commentary #2, 2002

We also don't see them take on the role of generals, either.

We only see them begrudgingly lead troops on Geonosis, specifically.

But they're not referred to as "generals" yet.

Another writer might have imagined a scene where after Geonosis, Mace Windu talks to Palpatine thinking the Jedi will go back to their roles as diplomats, and that what we saw in Attack of the Clones was a one-time thing to save Obi-Wan, but Palpatine politely goes:

"Ha! No. Didn't you hear? The Senate was so impressed by your performance on Geonosis that they voted to make you all generals in the GAR. Now, get back to the front."

Another writer might've elected to write them having that "big moral debate" she mentions.

Instead, Traviss immediately jumps on the "Jedi are elitists" train.

Because her personal experience with the military makes her sympathize with the clones and her personal belief is that - while the story may frame the Jedi as "the good guys" - nobody is that good a guy, real life people aren't that pure and selfless. There's gotta be something off about them and aHA! That's what it is!

That's her choosing to take that line of thought instead of one more in-line with the story, because she perceives it as unrealistic. But like... Star Wars isn't real life, it's a fairy tale.

That's like saying:

"The hunter in Little Red Riding Hood commits animal cruelty by cutting the Wolf open. He should've let nature take its course, the wolf earned that meal fair and square. If you think the hunter should've saved Red Riding Hood and her Grandma, then clearly you're the kind of monster who thinks one life is worth more than others."

... no?

The story's narrative clearly portrays the wolf as the villain of the tale and frames the Hunter saving Red Riding Hood as a good thing.

Disagreeing with that narrative is absolutely fine, but anybody who acknowledges the wolf is the bad guy in the story isn't automatically an animal hater and/or a bad person. Just because you say "the wolf is the villain" doesn't mean that you think that, in real life, killing wolves for shits and giggles is good.

Conversely, the narrative of the Prequels asks you to suspend your disbelief and not consider the implications that having a clone army entails. Because the use of clones doesn't have a direct impact on either Anakin or the Senate's stories.

Edit: I finished the post this one here originally spun out of!

You can find it here:

[roseaesynstylae]

Star Wars: Republic Commando: Triple Zero, Chapter 4

"Mereel was on Kamino. If Zey was heard to mutter that the Nulls were Skirata's private army, he wasn't entirely wrong."

You say that like it's a good thing.

"'I never said good-bye to the lads who didn't come back, that's all. I lost nine out of my batch.'

'But the last time you saw them, you left them feeling confident, respected, and loved. That's enough for any buir to achieve.'"

*narrows eyes* *with a remarkable amount of spite* I fucking doubt that calling them "wet-droids" made them feel loved. Just because you're constantly licking daddy's boots doesn't mean everyone else does.

Okay, that was going a little far. But everyone talking about this asshole like he's the ideal parent makes me want to throw something across the room. Hard. And repeatedly.

"'Have you met Sergeant Kal yet?'

'No.' Kal was always there for Darman, somewhere, even at times like this when she wanted to say so much to him.'

'Darman beamed, clearly delighted. 'Oh, you'll like him, General. You'll really like him.'

Etain certainly hoped so. And if she didn't, then she'd try, for Darman's sake."

*beaming smile* I'll just list things off, shall I?

"Even at times like this when she wanted to say so much to him." Etain, I want to say so much to him as well. It isn't what you want to say, though. It's a bit more...profane.

"You'll really like him." I've been getting a look into this man's mind for the past few chapters. I don't fucking like him. I actually prefer Walon Vau, since he's at least open about the fact that he's an asshole.

"And if she didn't, then she'd try, for Darman's sake." I could not try. It would end in an attempted strangulation.

"Vau was settled in one of the deeply upholstered hide chairs with the strill draped across his lap on its back, all six of its legs flopping in an undignified sprawl while he scratched its belly. Its huge fanged mouth was slack, tongue lolling, and a long skein of drool hung almost to the floor. Its body was a meter long, lengthened by a whip of a tail covered in more loose skin.

The strill was still prettier than Vau, though. The man had a long square-jawed face that was all bone and frown lines, and graying hair cut brutally short. Faces rarely lied about the soul within."

MIRD!!

PRECIOUS BABY!!

Oh, yeah, and its human servant. Great to see him too.

Who is the most adorable little killing machine?! It's you~

Mird, My Beloved: 1

"'The Jedi Council is pretty adept at turning blind eyes,' Skirata said. 'For an organization that knew it was taking on an army with an assassination capability, you do send out conflicting signals to simple soldiers like me.'

Vau was watching like a man being mildly amused by a holovid. The strill yawned with a thin, high-pitched whine."

Mird, My Beloved: 2

*sourly* I'm glad someone is amused by this.

"'We didn't even know we had an army until a year ago.'

'Maybe, but the fact that you're sitting here now with a general's rank means you've accepted responsibility for it. You could have objected, collectively or individually. You could have asked questions. But no. You picked up the blaster you found on the floor and you just fired it to defend yourself. Expedience ambushes you in the end.'"

*in the most fake nice way imaginable* Fuck. You.

Lemme just break this down a little...

"You could have objected, collectively or individually."

They did.

"You could have asked questions."

They did.

The problem isn't that the Jedi didn't try to find a way to object or that they didn't try to investigate. The problem is that the Separatists were actively attacking, the Senate wanted a war, and Palpatine had manipulated everything so they had no other choice. They took the role of Generals and Commanders because they felt that it was the best way to prevent excessive casualties and lessen suffering.

But, no. It's all the Jedi's fault. It isn't that they're a group that was not and never has been intended for a military position who have just been forced into this role. It isn't that they're trying to keep to their principles in the middle of a situation they are not meant for. It isn't that the chaos of the war made it so that trying to object or figure out what the hell was going on impossible.

In conclusion...

WHY DON'T YOU ASK JEDI WHAT THEY FEEL ABOUT THE SITUATION AND WHAT THEY DID? THEY'D TALK TO YOU. THEY'RE NICE, REASONABLE PEOPLE. I"M SURE THAT YOU'D LEARN A LOT MORE IF YOU HAD AN ACTUAL CONVERSATION INSTEAD OF RANTING ABOUT A GROUP OF PEOPLE YOU BARELY KNOW.

Jedi-Bashing: 7

"'Oh no, I'm just a civilian now,' Vau said. The strill rumbled. Vau, apparently distracted, fondled its ghastly, stinking head, his slightly narrowed eyes revealing a doting affection that he never seemed to spare for any other living creature."

I'm going to make this clear right now: I like Vau considerably more than Skirata. 80% of that affection comes from Mird.

Mird, My Beloved: 3

"'How far is too far, Kal? Can you answer that? How far did you go?' Vau called after him. 'I made that boy a warrior. Without me, he wouldn't be alive today.'

With him, Ordo thought, Atin very nearly wasn't."

Vau's training methods are a discussion for another time.

(I still prefer him to Skirata. Like I said, Vau's open about the fact that he's a bastard, unlike some people.)

"It was delightful to see the mix of armor -- yellow-striped commanders and pilots, plain white troopers, and the motley mix of commando colors -- drawn together in one ancient Mandalorian ritual, every face the same.

Etain felt adrift, excluded.

She had never truly felt this degree of bond with her Jedi clan. The connection in the Force was there, yes, but....no, the real strength here was attachment, passion, identity, meaning."

Attachment is not love. Attachment is not a good thing. Passion is not a good thing for a Jedi. I am explaining this in small words for the author's benefit.

Also, nice shit you just took on the Jedi's Youngling Clans.

(Don't fucking insult the Jedi Younglings. They're adorable and have done nothing wrong, ever.)

Given the fixation on (relatively nuclear and standard by sci-fi standards) families in this series, this really feels like a jab at the "fact" that *extremely mocking voice* ThE JedI DOn'T HAve FaMilIEs.

Jedi-Bashing: 9

That's it. I'm exhausted by this series' bullshit and it's only been one chapter. Thankfully, I have a vacation coming up where I can ignore these books and concentrate on actually good Star Wars content. Once I'm done decompressing, I'll be ranting about this again.

Jedi-Bashing: 9

Mando-Shilling: 1

It's a Man's World: 1

Shut the Fuck Up, Kal: 1

Deltas, Move Out: 4

Mird, My Beloved: 3

Is This The Bad Batch?: 2

Main Post

[mysticaltora8276]

Listening to this lovely piece of music again, remembering that in the Republic commando books the so called moral character jumps in the middle of a bunch of teenagers trying to flee the genocide of their own people and defend the clones who are reenacting a genocide only to be killed then the ideal father gets “angry“ then proceeds to massacre the teenagers, whose only crime was trying to run away from their genocide.

[mandalorianhistorian]

expanded universe mando females vs Disney Mando females a short post on actual diverse women vs lazily written my thoughts

(little reminder EU mando culture was written by a women and disneys and clone wars was written by a man)

what makes a mandalorian women in the expanded universe

calling A mandalorian woman, weak or small, is a huge insult to them, so start running if you can. Mandalorian women come in all kinds of ways, human, alien, any shape, height, etc., but for them, strength, honor, and loyalty are of the utmost regard. Mandalorian women do the same as their fellow men, equal in all parts of Mandalorian life. Women of the Manda can raise children adopted or born by themselves or with a partner. Mando women do look after their home wherever the nomads may travel next and raise their kids, but that responsibility isn't just for women; their partner must always help, regardless of species or sex. Mandalorian women are feared by many, especially by their own brothers. Mandalorian men are not scared by many things, but Mandalorian women terrify them Deeply. Mandalorian women in Mando society and culture are the same as the men. We have many moments in the books, games, and comics with amazing women. There are too many to name, but the most known would be Shae Vizla, Mirta gev, Rav Bralor, Parja Bralor. The stories that have these women are amazingly written by many authors but mainly Karen traviss.

why the Disney mandalorian women are not the same as EU mando women

the mandalorian women of Disney do not have the same values or honor as the EU mandalorians instead they seem to have a system that has royalty and hierarchy which was never present in the EU and lets not forget Disney seems to have death watch and the pacifists as the main vocal point when in the EU we have many different groups but Disney mandao women seem to have no value of equality and work. When we do see them they seem angry bitter hostile and just nasty to mandalorian men and the main one we have seen the most is bo katan and by god that women is not fit to be a mandalorian apparently shes the princess which is like how on earth do nomads go to that but that's a topic for another day but it seems Disney has also forgotten alien mandalorian women we see quit a few in the expanded universe. it really just baffles me how terrible their female mandos are. Mandalorian culture has been diverse, and they took it 50 steps back in modern Disney star wars.

difference in Armour non gendered and gendered

The armor in Mandalorian culture is shaped in many ways, but men and women do not have a certain design fixated on them in the expanded universe; they can share the same look or wear any design armor shape, Kama cloak jetpack with their armor, or any other add-on they want for themselves.

expanded universe Armour

the armor of the EU Yes, there is way more in SWTOR, so many helmets and gear, but men and women both wear them; there is no special so-called lady armor for female Mandalorians.

Disney Armour

For Disney Mandalorian women, they seem to all have the same helmet design; however, it is only seen on female Mandalorians putting on a gendered look, which is utterly silly for this culture.

thanks for reading :3 this is just my view as i grew up with Karen traviss writing and work so seeing it destroyed just makes me sad so these are just my quick thoughts.

[bg-11]

Filoni always was and always will be a hacky, overrated creator who was never any good. I hated all the pointless retcons that TCW made to the existing EU, the change in Ventress' backstory and fate and especially the character assassination of Barriss were some of the worst.

(The Mandalorians I can't be too mad about personally, I think of Traviss as a proto-Disney writer, to be honest. Combative with fans, didn't give a shit about established canon and made retcons and twisted characterisation when it suited her to prop up her pet characters...she and Filoni have a lot in common. Fuck 'em both)

general grievous is one of the characters ever. he’s a pile of lizard organs in a robot suit. he has four arms. he was invented before george lucas had any idea what his personality was and everyone though he had to be the coolest guy ever and then george decided he was an absolute fucking clown and didn’t tell anyone else. he has two different backstories, one of which is him being a tragic warrior-king fighting to preserve his spirit and to avenge his dead queen, and the other is him being an asshole who turned himself robot because the jedi wouldn’t invite him to their parties. he has some of the most raw artwork ever. his real name is qymaen jai sheelai. he has a moe schoolgirl version. they had to spend all of clone wars writing it so that he never met anakin because of one line. he killed a jedi named after shaggy from scooby-doo and another jedi named “master baytes.” he was trained by count dooku and the only thing dooku taught him was spinning. his voice is like 80% post-processing. he has a cough because george lucas had a really bad cough. the cough he uses is george lucas coughing. he has a pet monster and a sassy robot doctor. he has an infinite combo in lego star wars skywalker saga. nearly every one of his lines is a solid meme. i dressed up as him for halloween as a kid. he’s great.

[phoenixyfriend]

Is Karin Travis the reason I keep seeing people who think that the Clones had any attachment to Mandalorian culture?

Uhhh, possibly? I think most Mando'a comes from her Republic Commando books, at least.

[lieutenant-teach]

I really dislike it when anti-Jedi and Jedi-critical crowd uses EU books as a prove for their points. Why they’re all wrong:

a) The books were written by various people who didn’t consult George Lucas about what they’re going to write. Everyone understood SW as they did. When an original author has never claimed such art as canon and actually refused it – this is a definition of fanfiction, isn’t it? Paid, yes, but fanfiction nonetheless.

b) Most of these books were created way before PT. They didn’t know about the Jedi things what we know now. It becomes quite hypocritical – I mean, in the EU the clones were enemies, not allies, but somehow I don’t see any claims ‘but the clones are enemies! The EU says so!’. Even in Karen Traviss books not all the clones have a personality, but we all ignore it now, aren’t we? She wrote her books before the TCW, not knowing how the series would spin the story. So EU retcon works for the clones, but not for the Jedi?

[toaarcan]

Hi, hey there, did you know that the whole "Jedi can deflect blasters so Mandalorians used solid-shot weapons to kill them because blocking a bullet with a lightsaber just results in molten metal spraying the Jedi" meme is actually bullshit?

Like, first thing you have to know about that lore is that it was written by Karen Traviss. Traviss is fairly infamous for writing a shitton of military wank and really hating the Jedi, portraying them as cruel, cold, fascist idiots, who are much, much lamer than the cool Mandalorians, who are badass military types and definitely haven't carried out multiple genocides in the past (they have). She was also known for not exactly playing ball with other writers, and ultimately ragequit the franchise when TCW started to include Mandalorians and portrayed them differently. This was not a detail that basically any other writer in anything Star Wars ever actually backs up.

And like, here's the thing... this exists.

That's a Jedi using the Force to deflect bullets with her bare hand.

This is Tutaminis. And/or Force Deflection, it's not really clear whether they're the same thing or not. It's a pretty standard Force ability that a bunch of characters have demonstrated. Obi-Wan blocks both bullets and a flamethrower with it in the 03 Clone Wars microseries. It's how Yoda catches and redirects Force Lightning during his duels with Dooku in Attack of the Clones and Palpatine in Revenge of the Sith. It's how Vader absorbs Han's shots with his hand in The Empire Strikes Back.

It's also evident from the amount of times that the Mandalorians fight the Jedi with normal blasters instead of breaking out their "anti-Jedi" weapons for their ancient enemies. And the fact that the Mandalorians lost their wars against the Jedi.

If solid-shot guns/slugthrowers were the amazing anti-Jedi weapons that totally always worked against Jedi, then we'd see a lot more slugthrowers and a lot fewer Jedi. We see the CIS' Droid armies fight against the Jedi for three years, we see the Clones being designed from the get-go to kill the Jedi at the end of the war and being highly successful at it, we see the Empire hunting Jedi for the next 19 years and the rest of the Galactic Civil War after that, and y'know what they have in common? None of them use slugthrowers. They all just keep using blasters.

The answer to "How to kill a Jedi" equation has traditionally been depicted as "Use more blasters than they can actually physically deflect."

There's also the detail that Jedi are precognitive space wizards who can move with superhuman speed. If you're actually in range to shoot one with a gun, they'll sense you, evade or block with the Force, close the gap before you can chamber the next round, and revoke your Hand Privileges.

Even the "You'll kill them with a spray of molten metal from the melted bullet!" thing doesn't actually track with what we see on-screen. At the climax of Revenge of the Sith, we see Obi-Wan and Vader fight in the middle of an active volcano. They get splashed with showers of lava a couple of times, and at the end of the fight, both of their clothes are scorched and burned from the embers. Obi-Wan continues to wear his charred robes throughout the rest of the movie. And he's fine. No lava burns. Neither of them actually gets hurt by the lava until Obi-Wan cuts Vader's limbs off and he can no longer move or protect himself, and even then, Vader survives getting burned to a crisp by being really fucking mad about it.

So yeah, it's nonsense. A dumb "Hurr, Jedi are so lame and my unproblematic genocidal warrior race could totally kill them super-easy" take written by Star Wars' own version of Ken Penders.

[bg-11]

That quote is such bullshit, it's Traviss' strawmanning at its absolute worst. We never get to see Simi Nor, never get a feeling of what kind of character they are or their experiences, they literally only exist as that quote so Traviss can point and say: "See?! The Jedi don't care about the clones at all!" It's like if I wrote Mandalorian character to show up and go: "My favourite hobby is to murder puppies!", they leave and I smugly say this character I created purely to be a caricature proves my bias.

tiender replied to your quote “I didn’t realize they had names. What do they think about? They don’t…”

Apart from the Travissity factor, it’s confusing since as far as I know most Jedi can sense people in the Force, and the very first episode of TCW states all the clones have different Force signatures, so *throws up hands* how does that work?

Actually, no. Before The Clone Wars (2008) it was established by canon that clones didn’t have names. The kaminoans didn’t care enough to name them beyond their designation, but they gave nickname to themselves.

Very earlier in the war, Anakin Skywalker was one of the first jedi to recognize the clones unique identity and validate their chosen names. After that, it became more common for the clones to be named but we don’t know *how* the Jedi Order dealt with it in terms of teaching their younglings and padawans. As this comic from 2003 proves:

(thanks  @cienie-isengardu for this image)

So, it makes perfect sense that KT wrote this, especially when we consider her book was published in 2008 (probably written much earlier than that). Therefore, when she wrote the book it was canon that neither the Kaminoans nor the Jedi gave much thought about clones and their names.

Besides, TCW (2008) never established how the jedi reacted to clones and their names during the first weeks of wars or what padawans and younglings were taught about them, so even if she had written her story after the show aired, it still wouldn’t be contradictory to the show canon.

BTW, sense someone in the force doesn’t mean they could discern someone identity (name, personality, physical appearance, etc). They usually felt people they were close too or who were force-sensitive but, usually, they could sense feelings (like Jedi associating darkness to a Sith’s presence).

[david-talks-sw]

George Lucas & Karen Traviss' visions of Star Wars are NOT the same...

So whenever I come across this image:

I keep in mind that it's from a book written by Karen Traviss, who is a brilliant author (I adored Legacy of the Force: Bloodlines and Sacrifice) but whose stance on Anakin, Yoda & the Jedi and Star Wars morality is this:

As opposed to George Lucas' stance on Anakin, Yoda & the Jedi and Star Wars' morality, which is this:

In a children's story about Light and Dark, good and evil, selflessness vs selfishness, George Lucas marks the Empire as absolutely evil and the Rebels as absolutely good, in the Original Trilogy.

In the Prequels, the situation is more complex (the Jedi are drafted into a war and forced to do things they know they shouldn't be doing, but have to for the greater good; the Sith bring about order to a corrupt government) but the morality stays the same... the selfish, greedy Sith are absolutely evil and the selfless, compassionate Jedi are absolutely good.

That's George's thesis.

And, as a character, Yoda's function is to deliver that thesis. It's no wonder why Lucas treats Yoda's words as absolutely correct:

Yoda is Lucas' mouthpiece in the Prequels, his self-insert.

George Lucas' narrative frames Yoda as objectively right.

So when Karen Traviss questions the Jedi, particularly Yoda's character and wisdom, she's disagreeing with George Lucas' thesis.

Which is fair. Traviss, is a different person than Lucas, she's an ex-journalist with a more "grey" view of the world and a different philosophy re: fiction aimed at children. "Death of the author" and all that. Again, fair enough.

And if you like Travis' interpretation and philosophy more than George's, if her read resonates with you more... also fair enough.

But the EU is not a reliable source on Lucas' vision.

I've talked about this in MUCH more detail here, but if you do care about George Lucas' vision, then maybe don't draw from the Expanded Universe, which includes content written by authors who expressly disagree with him, like Traviss.

Sounds logical, but for some reason people will read the above-posted Dooku quote and treat it as reflective of Lucas' vision, when it's not the case.

George Lucas' Dooku doesn't have an issue with Yoda or the Jedi (at least not openly, as Darth Tyranus, the Sith Lord he wants them all dead). Dooku's issue is with the Senate and the Republic.

George Lucas specifically added that most Jedi share Dooku's concerns. Before he's revealed to be a mass-murdering, Sith who enslaves neutral systems, the Jedi think he makes a good point and are even reluctant to consider him a murder suspect.

But let's not start saying that Lucas' Prequels are meant to be about "the Jedi's failure" and "Dooku being right that the Jedi are corrupt.

Because that's not the case.

If that's how you see them, great. It's certainly how Traviss saw them. To each their own, authorial intent be damned.

But it's not what they were about, to Lucas. Stating the contrary is... I dunno, lying? Rewriting history?

It's as if I got hired to write a Lord of the Rings prequel seen from Gandalf's POV. And y'know what, maybe I don't like Gandalf. So I write him as a scheming asshole going “myahahahah, fuck hobbits! I’m gonna let them keep the One Ring so a bunch Nazgûl will swoop through the Shire and murder them!” and suddenly, everyone starts writing posts about the notion that “Growing up is realizing that Tolkien always intended for Gandalf to be the secret villain of LOTR!” as if that had always been the case and I didn't just reframe him that way retroactively.

Finally, I'd also encourage you to read @rendar-writes' well-made point here about the fact that, while claiming she "doesn't give the answers", Traviss nonetheless shows a clear anti-Jedi bias.

[mysticaltora8276]

"Yeah, but you said Etain would be in serious osik if the Jedi Thought Police caught her." Niner seemed to be going for mitigating circumstances. "And don't they take Jedi babies? She had her reasons." Order 66

……………Traviss what the every loving heck?! The Jedi don’t have a thought police your Mandalorians do. And they don’t take babies without the consent of the parents. 😑