#and yes wei wuxian DOES speculate about their relationship. BUT.

[thatswhatsushesaid]

the way i always read mxy and jgy's whole thing was that mxy was a incredibly poorly socialized kid who More Than Anything wanted a family who loved him, and jgy just didn't really want this (way younger) kid clinging onto him all the time (or really at all, for pretty understandable reasons) and tried to put some normal distance between them bc like, yeah they're blood related by barest technicality but they didn't grow up together or anything, and then the jinlintai rumour mill decided to get involved bc giving them a chance to slander not just one but TWO of jgs's bastard offspring at once is like putting a sack of raw meat in front of a pack of starving wolves, and then jgy couldn't really get involved at that point even if he wanted to bc then they'd accuse him of Secretly Liking The Attention (You Slut) and that was simply not a risk to be taken (for again, very understandable reasons). i'm aware my reading of it is at least partially supported by nothing but hopes and dreams, but the whole book has that overarching theme of "don't believe rumours, they're 90% horseshit from people who are as bored as they are rich" and regardless its better than the hard crack that other anon's friend was smoking to somehow decide jgy was fucking grooming mxy?? insane left turn from any kind of logic right there. some people will just say anything

some people will just say anything, anon, you're so right. and while i don't think there's anything in the text that explicitly confirms what you're describing in the first paragraph, i think that scenario is infinitely more plausible than other-anon's [edit: other-anon's FRIEND, sorry anon, not trying to slander you!!] "jin guangyao is a groomer" theory, which immediately falls apart if you just think about 1) what the text is showing you, aka 2) jin guangyao's actual circumstances in the book.

[rejectedfables]

I think often about Jin Guangyao’s “[I murdered] my father, my (older) brother, my wife, my son, my teacher, my friend” quote. I think about how Jin Guangyao, a man known for self effacing politeness to the point of taking blame and shame onto himself to alleviate the tempers of others, in this moment takes complete responsibility for "murders” that he absolutely did not commit. And I think about how the audience both in the story and outside it, take his words at face value.  

I think there are multiple ways of interpreting who this quote is about. Obviously Father = Jin Guangshan, Wife = Qin Su, Son = Jin Rusong, those are clear. I think (older) Brother could either be Nie Mingjue or Jin Zixuan. I think "teacher” could be Wen Rouhan or Nie Mingjue. Friend could be Nie Mingjue, Su Minshan, or Xue Yang.

So I think the ONLY options for [brother, teacher, friend] (in that order) are: 

NMJ, WRH, and SMS

NMJ, WRH, and XY

JZX, NMJ, and SMS

JZX, NMJ, and XY

JZX, WRH, and NMJ

JZX, WRH, and SMS

JZX, WRH, and XY

I also saw a translation where he said “friends” plural, which would reduce the list to:

NMJ, WRH, XY and SMS

JZX, NMJ, XY and SMS

JZX, WRH, SMS and NMJ

JZX, WRH, XY and NMJ

JZX, WRH, XY and SMS

However, given the importance of his relationship with NMJ, I feel like we can safely eliminate any that exclude NMJ entirely. Similarly, there cannot be characters mentioned here who are unnamed or unknown to the reader, as that wouldn’t make any Doylist sense. We are left with a list that consists of Nie Mingjue, either WRH or JZX or both, and possibly XY and/or SMS. 

Regardless of which of those combinations you use, he did not directly OR EVEN DELIBERATELY murder everyone on that list. Let’s go through them:

Jin Guangshan: Yes, he deliberately ordered and orchestrated his father’s death. Outstanding, earned, poetic, no notes. (Okay maybe SOME notes, but like, listen. Listen.) 

Qin Su: Qin Su killed herself. In the animation, Jin Guangyao used the skull-piercing nails to force her suicide, but this is not canon to the novel. Bicao claims that Jin Guangyao must have killed her to silence her, despite her suicide having many witnesses (including us! the readers!), but Wei Wuxian (who WAS THERE) speculates that she couldn’t handle the reality of her marriage, as illuminated to her BY Bicao, or the prospect of societal shame if it got out. However, even IF “your actions drove her to suicide” were the rubric here, that’s still not quite the same as “you murdered her”, nor does it seem to be the outcome he was hoping or planning for. “JGY murdered her” is factually inaccurate, and a blatant propaganda tactic being used against him-- but perhaps it felt emotionally true to HIM because he’s grieving his DEAD WIFE and he FEELS responsible.

Nie Mingjue: JGY spent something like 5+ years suffering physical and verbal abuse and explicit threats of death by Nie Mingjue, then was tasked with killing Nie Mingjue by his father. He did so in a sneaky way, so as to not endanger himself further or get punished for (or perhaps cause an inter-sect conflict/war by) killing the leader of a rival sect.

Wen Rouhan: JGY stabbed him in all adaptations, A+, war hero.

Jin Zixuan: JGY, on his father’s orders, orchestrated a situation that led to Jin Zixuan’s death. We cannot know for SURE that JGY wasn’t aiming for his death but we CAN say that “Wei Wuxian accidentally compelling Wen Ning to kill the ONE GUY PRESENT Wei Wuxian did NOT want to kill” (OR “WN killing JZX of his own accord against WWX’s orders”) would have been a weird bet to make. This seems highly unlikely to have been JGY’s goal, but it was certainly caused by a situation he created. He also did not actually literally kill the guy.

Su Minshan: Su She died to protect Jin Guangyao from Nie Mingjue’s fierce corpse. Jin Guangyao is only “responsible” for this in the vaguest or terms and worst faith of interpretations. Technically Su She wouldn’t have died there if not for JGY on multiple levels (wouldn’t have had to protect him, NMJ’s fierce corpse being JGY’s fault, wouldn’t have been present at all if JGY hadn’t summoned him there, etc.), but if Jin Guangyao describes this as “I murdered him” that’s... a stretch. Again, like with Qin Su, this feels like something he might say because he FEELS responsible, rather than because he actually is.

Xue Yang: JGY ordered Xue Yang’s execution (or possibly ordered a fake execution, but this seems less likely) directly before he fled, injured, to Yi City. He did not die here. Later, after reconnecting and while still following Jin Guangyao’s orders, Xue Yang was killed by other people in opposition to Jin Guangyao’s wishes and plans. Again, TECHNICALLY Xue Yang would not have died when he did were it not for Jin Guangyao, but describing it as “Jin Guangyao murdered him” is QUITE a stretch. Due to the title of the “Villainous Friends” extra, which is about JGY and XY specifically, XY seems the most likely candidate to me for “Friend” in this quote, which is bizarre because I think his death is actually the LEAST connected to Jin Guangyao. Jin Guangyao wasn’t even present, nor did Xue Yang die FOR Jin Guangyao-- just on his payroll. BUT perhaps he still felt guilty for ORDERING his execution, and simply his willingness to HAVE Xue Yang killed counted enough to make the list.

I’ll get to the last one, but I’m pausing here to say: What all of this means is that no matter who is or isn’t on that list, it is NOT an objective list of factual murders. It is a list of people who’s deaths Jin Guangyao FEELS RESPONSIBLE FOR.

Even before we get to who counts as teacher, brother, or friend, even JUST his wife solidifies this. But it isn’t JUST her either-- even if we cut SMS and XY (the other two BIG stretch candidates) from the equation, that leaves us ONLY with NMJ(friend), WRH(teacher), and JZX(brother). And Jin Zixuan is the other one that really should not make the list of people JGY “murdered”.

This is a list of people who’s deaths Jin Guangyao FEELS RESPONSIBLE FOR.

Which brings us to the last one:

Jin Rusong: The quote (I believe this is a fan translation, but not sure) "One of the opposing sect leaders lost the arguments [about the watchtowers], and went into a murderous rage, killing Jin Guangyao and Qin Su’s only son. The boy had always been a good child and the couple had loved him dearly. Under resentment, Jin Guangyao tore down the entire sect in revenge” is, to my knowledge/memory, the only real account we’re given of what happened. “Lost the arguments and went into a murderous rage” doesn’t sound like the child was found dead some time later, and they had to investigate. It sounds like it happened in public, with witnesses, immediately. 

In the same scene where Bicao convinces an audience that Qin Su, who famously killed herself on screen in a room full of people with a (now) known motive for suicide, “must have” been murdered by Jin Guangyao-- in that same scene others speculate that Jin Rusong, who was famously killed by a political opponent in a “murderous rage” most likely DURING A CONFERENCE, “must have” been murdered by Jin Guangyao. 

I think "I angered an opposing sect leader so much that he killed my son" being translated by JGY into "I killed my son" is EXACTLY IN LINE with the rest of his list. How is that different than "I ordered Xue Yang's assassination, and later put him in a situation that caused others to kill him" being translated to "I killed my friend"? Or “Su She died to protect me” being translated to “I killed my friend”? Or “I didn’t anticipate my brother’s unwitting involvement in a covert operation would get him accidentally killed, which no one wanted, not even the guy who did it” being translated to “I killed my brother”? Or “I tried to protect my pregnant fiancé/wife from a horrible secret I only just learned, which would ruin her life, and when someone confronted her with it TO HARM ME she couldn’t live with it and killed herself” being translated to “I killed my wife”? It’s the same!

I do not believe that Jin Guangyao killed Jin Rusong. I believe “I murdered my son” is an example of the way that Jin Guangyao speaks about himself-- always taking the maximum responsibility onto his own shoulders. If he was in any way responsible, than he was completely responsible. If he FEELS responsible, then he MAY AS WELL have murdered them.

The context of when he says this quote also matters towards how we interpret it’s meaning. He was already attempting to flee the country, aware that the cultivation world was actively turning on him for crimes that he did AND DIDN’T commit. He was surrounded by people he thought cared about him, all of whom seemed determined to stop him from achieving a safe exit. He had had all the horrible things he felt responsible for (regardless of how directly or deliberately he was involved in those events) thrown in his face by said loved ones, while they looked at him with horror. Su Minshan had just been killed trying to PROTECT HIM, and now it looked like it had been for nothing anyway. Huaisang, who he is shown as doting upon throughout their decades long relationship, has just manipulated Lan Xichen (do I even have to go into how important Lan Xichen is to him? Please say no, please say this much at LEAST is universally understood) into BEING THE ONE to STAB HIM. 

In this moment, he believes that he’s going to die, and be reviled in death by society and his loved ones alike. He knows there’s nothing left he can say or do, he hasn’t had time to process Su She’s death, and Lan Xichen has JUST (accidentally) betrayed him (which he also hasn’t had time to process). 

And also, notably, he had very recently been IN POSSESSION of the TIGER TALLY. 

AND HE’S BEEN STABBED! To my memory this scene happens while he’s missing an arm and LAN XICHEN’S sword is still INSIDE HIS GUTS. His emotions and reasoning are probably NOT the most calm or rational right now (blood loss, pain, fear, grief, influence of the tiger tally, etc.), and this “confession” should be taken with that in mind. 

I just think a lot about how “I murdered [everyone I’ve loved except for you]” is such a raw and telling line, given the context. Even if it’s more like “I murdered [everyone I’ve owed devotion to except for you]”, that’s still so painful. He blames himself for all of it. All of it! The world celebrated Wen Rouhan’s death, but Jin Guangyao added it to his personal list. Jin Guangshan is arguably the most reprehensible character in the entire story, and ruined every part of Jin Guangyao’s entire life, but he’s on the list. He did everything in his power to protect Qin Su, and when she found out the truth he continued offering her ways he could protect her, but she chose to kill herself, and she’s on the list. He tried to improve the world with the watchtowers, and someone retaliated by murdering his son, and he claimed responsibility for that too.

He knew he was being blamed for their deaths, knew it was propaganda and slander and bad faith, but he blamed himself too. So he just... accepted it. I did it. It was me, I murdered them.

And so, so, so many people, in his world and in ours, were so, so eager to agree

[mxtxfanatic]

Sometimes I encounter speculation about whether or not Lan Zhang Wuxian was or was not forced to do bad things (kissing without asking, having erotic dreams, the bastard). Whether it was harassment. I won't go into the degree of meaningfulness of these claims now. I just want to point out that I've never once encountered any claims that Wuxian harasses Lan Zhang, even though it's actually just Wuxian who keeps “harassing”, invading personal space and generally trying to cause discomfort in every way possible. And like yes, as readers we know that first of all, Wuxian has no real intentions for anything sexual/romantic to happen (until a certain point, after which he just very much has them), and second of all, that Lan Zhan is not even against it at all, but very much for it. But Wuxian does not know that Lan Zhan is for it. And Wuxian does what he does. Which begs the question, why aren't his actions regarded as outright harassment, huh? Huh? (If it is, I'm not aware of it, enlighten me then). In fact, if Lan Zhang wasn't so actively involved, then Wuxian's actions might have been very discomforting. Well, or they would have been somewhat discomforting for one reason or another (we don't know Lan Zhang's exact thoughts on this, and no thoughts no evidence) because love and involvement do not deprive one of personal boundaries. The very personal boundaries that part of the fandom seems to believe Lan Zhang is not supposed to have. No conclusion, just a thought.

Oh anon, you are very fortunate to not have seen the “Wei Wuxian doesn’t respect boundaries and forced Lan Wangji to like him” camp, because it def exists. On the other hand, I think the the rapist!lwj fanon (because quite honestly, this is just the quiet part of all that discourse) is much more widespread an idea because so many of lwj’s “breach of boundaries” are tied to explicit sex scenes, and many people consider sexual harassment to be either more real or more serious an infraction than other types of harassment (even though I’d argue wwx also sets them up for sexual scenes pre-relationship, they just never become actual sex scenes). There’s also the thing where people view the partner that tops (and I’d say this counts for both queer and straight relationships) as sexually violent, which they supposedly inherit from their position of choice. Wwx can’t “truly” be violent because bottoms can’t “truly” initiate sex; that’s the top’s job, and therefore their realm to violate. Unfortunate but true to how I’ve seen discussions of sexual violation play out in both this discourse and others.

On the other hand, I’m glad you put the “harassment” in quotes because neither character harasses the other with their affections. There’s not a single moment I can think of (pending a reread) where lwj explicitly lays down a boundary that wwx knowingly crosses. Even in the Cloud Recesses arc, wwx isn’t disrespecting lwj’s boundaries, because lwj doesn’t set any. And the moment wwx thinks lwj hates him, he leaves. Them having subsequent misunderstandings and miscommunication in later arcs is not harassment or a violation of boundaries. And as you said, wwx is a willing participant in all of lwj’s “harassment” of him as well. They literally mutually like each other. It does not have to be this complicated.

[veliseraptor]

Inspired by 'it's not love, it's obsession': what are your thoughts on the parallels between Luo Binghe and Xue Yang?

oooh this is a fascinating one.

One of my favorite things about looking at MXTX's books as a corpus of work taken together is the ways in which you can see her evolving as a writer. I don't necessarily mean stylistically (I don't feel like I can speak to that, since I can't read the original), or even necessarily narratively (though I do think TGCF is the strongest narratively, for all it's probably longer than it needs to be). What I really mean is how you can see her coming back to the same themes over and over and exploring them with variations and shades of difference. There are very clearly things that are MXTX Concerns, as it were, that she revisits and echoes and plays with in all of her works; questions about justice and the cycle of violence are one big one that I've thought a lot about personally.

And when you're looking at the three books together, there are places where you can draw throughlines - for instance, from Yi City > Black Water Arc, or from (arguably) Xiao Xingchen > Xie Lian. In light of the trivia that Yi City comes at least in part from an older, abandoned story MXTX worked on when she was younger (per an interview with her, I believe), I feel like you can draw the line from Xue Yang > Luo Binghe as far as some of the tropes being played with. Xue Yang is (in some ways) an echo of Luo Binghe is an echo of an older story that had a character who may or may not have been named Xue Yang.

In obvious ways Xue Yang takes a different position in the story he ends up in than Luo Binghe does in his (he ends up an antagonist), but while one could look at the Song Lan/Xue Yang/Xiao Xingchen trio and posit Xiao Xingchen and Song Lan as the intended pair of whatever original story they came from, that doesn't, in my eyes, fit with the other relationships MXTX chooses to write. Xue Yang lives at a nexus of a lot of the things MXTX pokes at with Luo Binghe and, yes, Wei Wuxian, but also (to a lesser degree) Hua Cheng - the legacy of childhood violence, the importance and weight of small kindnesses in changing a person, the probing at the idea of people as irredeemable or incapable of change (and finding it lacking).

He comes from a disadvantaged, marginalized background (as do the other two protagonists) and, despite perpetrating atrocious acts of violence (Wei Wuxian actually, Luo Binghe less so in SVSSS canon but explicitly so in PIDW, which is the way Shen Qingqiu relates to him initially), kind treatment from a single person having a deep impact on their behavior. There's also the quality of deep, obsessive devotion, notably beyond death, that Xue Yang shares with Luo Binghe, Lan Wangji, and Hua Cheng (portrayed in the latter two cases as clearly and explicitly romantic and to be valued). Xue Yang doesn't occupy a protagonist role in MDZS (obviously), but he has some of those thematic qualities that tend to pop up in MXTX protagonists and/or love interests.

(Hua Cheng might stand out here, and he is different, certainly, but I would point to the very, very early identification of him as inherently ill-fortuned and bad to be around. Xue Yang has TGCF echoes, I'd say, to a lesser extent in Hua Cheng than in Jun Wu, but I don't think the echoes are absent from Hua Cheng, either.).

This positions Xue Yang, potentially, as (if we're using a crude metaphor) a little bit the Luo Binghe to Xiao Xingchen's Shen Qingqiu, with Song Lan potentially occupying more of a Yue Qingyuan place (but of course that's just speculation and we'll probably never know).

This is a lot of tl;dr but I guess the main thing I'm thinking about here is that while it's I think shallow to describe Xue Yang as a proto-Luo Binghe (or rather, ur-Xue Yang from that older story as), I think it's fair to see that relationship between the two characters as part and parcel of MXTX's revisiting, revising, and reconsidering the same themes over and over again in her work - in the same way, I think, that within the same story Wei Wuxian's parallels with both Xue Yang illustrate that same impulse. (And not, to be clear, as a simple "this one good, this one bad" morality tale; what MXTX is doing with her parallels is, I daresay, more interesting than that.)

anyway, there you have it. I feel like this went maybe a little left of what you were asking (maybe you wanted me to talk about the actual parallels in terms of character?) but this is a sub-category of that subject I personally find very fun to think about.

[robininthelabyrinth]

I'd love more from your deaging NHS AU verse! Maybe little NHS hanging out more with WWX? Or little NHS meeting JC? Or getting spoiled by JYL?

sequel to Little (deaging NHS - need to read that first)

Hosting another sect leader was both a burden and a privilege.

The burden was mostly logistical – although they’d reclaimed the Lotus Pier, they hadn’t managed to fix it all back up, and it was one thing for all of them to be living in a state more fit for wild bandits than a Great Sect but another thing entirely for them to let someone else see them do so.

Jiang Cheng couldn’t do everything himself, even if he was trying to, so Jiang Yanli stepped up to assist: she turned the kitchens into something livable, requisitioned disciples and laborers to focus on the main hall and the guest rooms, supervised the hiring of those who did the laundry and removed waste, all the important things needed to make their home an inviting one, as long as you were careful to only look at the main parts and not the rest.

Luckily, their guest was Nie Mingjue, not any of the other sect leaders, and he didn’t care. That was, Jiang Yanli suspected, the only reason that Jiang Cheng hadn’t had a full-on heart attack as the date of the man’s approach arrived.

Sure enough, he arrived with as little fanfare as possible, greeted them politely, and promptly sequestered himself, his younger brother, and his chief disciples into a room with Jiang Cheng to discuss sect business. By the time they emerged for dinner, Jiang Cheng looked worn out but immensely pleased, they’d signed a half-dozen treaties, and Jiang Yanli had enough food to feed a small army waiting for them. A good thing, too, since apparently the Nie ate like they’d been starving the week before their meal. Even Nie Huaisang made the food in front of him vanish at lightning-quick speed, and he didn’t even have the build to explain away where all of it was going.

By far the most interesting aspect of it for Jiang Yanli, however, was that Wei Wuxian had made an appearance.

This was something of a rarity recently. Something about the war had hurt him, deeply, and that reason, or for whatever reason, he was very obviously avoiding Jiang Cheng – and, as a result, neglecting the duties that ought to be his as chief disciple. Jiang Yanli knew that it was unintentional, that he still cared for both her and Jiang Cheng, for the sect. But it didn’t make it any easier for them that rather than helping them, he instead spent his days skulking around wine shops, and nothing either of them said seemed to make any difference.  

Both she and Jiang Cheng had already resigned themselves to Wei Wuxian snubbing the Nie sect entirely, but to their mutual surprise he was there with a smile that Jiang Yanli hadn’t seen in weeks, boisterous and loud and trying to steal some of the plates of Nie Huaisang’s food whenever the other man turned to say something to Jiang Cheng. Without success, since being notoriously poor at any martial skill did not keep Nie Huaisang from effectively slapping away Wei Wuxian’s wandering fingers without even looking.

He even volunteered to show them around Yunmeng the next morning – meaning a walk by the river, since the Lotus Pier itself was largely not showable in its current condition – and Jiang Cheng agreed to the idea with no little relief, since he needed some time to get the treaties filed and implemented.

“I didn’t know you two had gotten so close to the Nie sect during the war,” Jiang Yanli murmured to Jiang Cheng, who rubbed his face in exhaustion and joy.

“I think it’s because it’s a reminder of happier days, with Nie Huaisang?” he said hesitantly. “Maybe? Anyway, can you make sure they get snacks along with their tea this evening? Chifeng-zun said he was full when he finished his plate, but Nie Huaisang was definitely eying his neighbor’s bowl longingly at the end there.”

Jiang Yanli hid a smile with her hand. “Of course, A-Cheng. Leave it to me.”

She made an entire pot of soup, plus a handful of side dishes, and brought up the portion to the rooms set aside for the main Nie sect herself. It wasn’t just to give them face, though of course that was important given that the Nie were their most important allies barring maybe the Jin sect – it ought to be the Jin sect, but they were playing games with it, and certain overtures by Madame Jin had led Jiang Cheng to speculate that they hoped to finalize the revival of the engagement between Jiang Yanli and Jin Zixuan that Jin Guangshan had unilaterally raised not long ago before agreeing to provide any actual aid.

They hadn’t yet decided if it was worth playing the game back, hinting and implying and leaving themselves wiggle room in case Jiang Yanli really didn’t want to marry Jin Zixuan in the end; luckily, this visit by the Nie sect would put off the necessity of that for a good while. Maybe even for good, depending on how good some of those trading contracts were, and Jiang Cheng’s expression gave Jiang Yanli some hope.

Still, despite the absolutely critical importance of the relationship, that wasn’t why Jiang Yanli decided to go act the part of a servant personally.

Instead, she was hoping to use the opportunity see if she could get some insight into whatever they’d done to make Wei Wuxian smile like that, and to see if she could replicate it.

She wasn’t expecting to hear Wei Wuxian’s voice from the guest quarters they’d assigned to the Nie sect.

Not only because it was a little too late for any visit to be appropriate, but because Wei Wuxian had been avoiding the Jiang clan rooms for – rather a while, now. He wasn’t even sleeping in his own bedroom.

And yet – here he was.

Talking like a child.

Jiang Yanli’s heart stopped briefly in her chest when she heard the familiar whine Wei Wuxian liked to adopt when he was playing as A-Xian: it had always been their special game, her favorite way to indulge her mischievous little brother who sometimes liked to be fed and hugged and tucked in at night, and she would have sharp words for anyone who dared criticize it. But – in front of another sect leader –

“A-Xian, stop,” Nie Mingjue’s deep voice said firmly, his amusement audible even through the door. “Give Huaisang the toy back.”

“But da-ge,” Wei Wuxian whined, even though Nie Huaisang’s laugh made clear that he had handed back whatever toy they were talking about. “Why does he get to have the toy and I don’t?”

“I brought you three toys, you brat, and Huaisang only has one. Not everything is for sharing; some things are yours and yours alone.”

Jiang Yanli reflected briefly on the differences in child-rearing techniques between the sects – if it had been Wei Wuxian and Jiang Cheng, she would have encouraged Jiang Cheng to share, and instructed Wei Wuxian to share in return – before realizing that Nie Mingjue was reacting to Wei Wuxian’s nonsense with extraordinary calmness. Almost as if he’d dealt with it before.

Almost as if he accepted it.

Jiang Yanli steeled her spine and knocked.

“I brought some snacks, Sect Leader,” she called.

There was a brief moment of quiet – some brief murmuring in low voices – but at last he said, “Enter,” and she did.

Wei Wuxian was sitting on the floor with his face buried in Nie Mingjue’s thigh, Nie Mingjue’s hand petting through his hair in a calming gesture; behind them, a small child of around seven, dressed in oversized Nie robes, lolled around on his stomach, his legs kicked up in the air, as he toyed with some puzzle game. Jiang Yanli hadn’t realized the Nie sect had brought along a child – one certainly hadn’t been present at dinner – but under the circumstances she opted not to comment.

“I thought you might still be hungry,” she said with a smile. “So I made some snacks, and soup.”

“Soup!” Wei Wuxian exclaimed, lifting his head to reveal red cheeks. “Da-ge, you have to try shijie’s soup!”

“I intend to,” Nie Mingjue said. He was looking at Jiang Yanli thoughtfully. “Would you care to join us, Mistress Jiang?”

“I’d be happy to,” Jiang Yanli said, though she’d originally intended no such thing, and settled down to serve it out. “Thank you for taking care of A-Xian.”

“It’s nothing,” Nie Mingjue said. “A charming child, and one that speaks very highly of you. You must be very proud.”

“I am,” she agreed, and from the corner of her eye saw all the tension drain out of Wei Wuxian’s shoulders at her affirmation of their game. He scrabbled over to her side, abruptly affectionate, and cuddled up. “A-Xian, no! I need that hand to serve the soup. Didn’t you just say that you want Nie-da-ge to have some?”

Wei Wuxian pouted, but withdrew his sticky tentacles. The child on the bed laughed again and rolled over and up to his feet, hopping over to where Wei Wuxian was. “Wei-xiong can play with me while we wait.”

“Okay,” Wei Wuxian agreed at once. “We can play tag!”

“Don’t break anything,” Jiang Yanli said, and discovered to her amusement that Nie Mingjue had said the same exact thing at the same exact moment. He smiled crookedly at her, very briefly – his expression was not one usually given for smiling, typically stern and grim even when it was neutral, and the expression made him look suddenly younger.

“Younger siblings,” he said, an explanation and an excuse, and abruptly Jiang Yanli knew who the child must be. She didn’t know how it was that Nie Huaisang had physically regressed into childhood, as well as doing so emotionally the way Wei Wuxian did, but she supposed it didn’t really matter.

“Yes,” she said, and smiled back at him. “A-Xian likes it when I feed him his meals. Does…?”

Nie Mingjue shook his head. “Huaisang is very proud,” he said, voice fond. “He wouldn’t accept that sort of help from me, though perhaps he might accept it from you if he sees A-Xian getting a treat.”

“Children that age can be very jealous of each other,” Jiang Yanli agreed. “It’s a good thing that A-Xian is five today, so he can play with his friend, and not three. Maybe he can be three another time.”

“I must admit I haven’t noticed much difference so far,” Nie Mingjue remarked. “He’s still always clamoring for hugs.”

“Da-ge gives the best hugs,” Nie Huaisang said loyally.

Wei Wuxian looked a little shifty, but Jiang Yanli nodded at him supportively and he smiled. “They’re really good, shijie,” he confided in her. “He can pick me up!”

Jiang Yanli’s smile broadened, even as Nie Mingjue’s shoulders went up a little in embarrassment.

“We’re all good at different things,” she assured him. “Nie-da-ge is good at hugs, but I bet I’m better at doing your hair, right?”

“Yes! Shijie’s the best!”

“I want my hair done by Jiang-jiejie,” Nie Huaisang declared, eyes avid. “Can I?”

“After we eat,” Nie Mingjue said. “And only if you ask very nicely, and Mistress Jiang says yes.”

“I’ll say yes,” she said, and then, as an aside to Nie Mingjue, added, “You can call me Jiang-meimei if you like. If I’m calling you Nie-da-ge and all.”

He smiled again.

At some point, Jiang Yanli would need to examine how exactly Wei Wuxian had ended up taking Nie Mingjue as one of his caretakers, as well as how Nie Huaisang managed a full-fledged bodily transformation – and they’d need to bring Jiang Cheng in on this, somehow, even though he was neither caretaker nor little, simply because he would be jealous at being left out. And there was still Wei Wuxian’s unusual behavior, his inexplicable distance from all of them…

But that was a problem for later.

For now, they could just be there for them.

[fakeikemen]

After seeing this gifset of Mo Xuanyu something has awoken in me and now I must rant about it. 

Here's what I think: Jin Guangyao lied about Mo Xuanyu harassing him.

Not really gonna comment on whether he was actually queer or not because that is completely up in the air. And the things in the story that do point to mxy being queer (all in a negative light) can be disproved. This is speculative yes, but in the same way we speculate about jgy killing Jin Rusong. Jgy kept this entire incident hidden from Lan Xichen. And that’s a little weird because making himself look like a burdened suffering soul in front of lxc was one of his priorities. I don’t see why he wouldn’t weaponize this. Not saying that he has to tell everyone about how he was sexually harassed or that he is obligated to tell it to the people close to him. But lxc was a frequent guest at Lanling. And everyone and their mother at Lanling knows about the fiasco and they don’t try to hide their knowledge of it. Word had spread far enough for rogue cultivators to know. So its a little weird that Lan Xichen has no idea who Mo Xuanyu even is. 

Following further in the vein of even lxc not even catching a whiff of mxy; jgy possibly isolated him from the others. Assuming that mxy was in Lanling for a year atleast and that he was brought there to make him the primary choice for succeeding Jin Guangshan it becomes just much more weirder that lxc doesn’t know him. If he had been someone who was indeed flaunting his attraction to men, (like many believe) he’d have been known.

But mxy was 14 when he was called to Lanling. He had to leave his home and go to a completely foreign place where he would be definitely looked down upon. The Mo family already had a bad public opinion. Mxy’s mother was the daughter of a servant of the Mo family. His social status might have been a bit better than jgy but not by much. I am pretty sure that mxy felt like he was walking on eggshells the whole time. It would have been way too easy for jgy to win over his trust and to isolate him from the others as someone who had a nice and reassuring presence and was also from the lower strata of society and wasn’t looking down at him. Lanling’s hostile environment would’ve definitely helped jgy with this. 

And after cutting off mxy from all the other people, how easy would it have been for jgy to turn around and lie about mxy to everyone else? Jgy may not have been highly regarded by his “family” but he was keeping everything working and talking and making "connections" with other people for years now. Other people noticed and appreciated him (including Wei Wuxian in his first life time.). Jgy can also put on a good show. People would listen to him and believe him. We also know that jgy was already wary of jgs bringing in other illegitimate sons to prevent him from becoming the heir. Jgy would have definitely planned to drive mxy away since the moment he set foot in Carp tower. Mxy probably never stood a chance.

And mxy would have no one to support him or to clear his name. Because he would have only been around jgy (more reason for people to believe that he was into jgy). There was no way for people to believe that mxy was innocent.

But going back to the speculations about mxy being open/loud about being into men being the factor that makes people believe jgy; it's not possible.

The society in MDZS is homophobic. Let’s leave aside historical accuracy because MXTX clearly mentioned in the author’s note that MDZS wasn’t supposed to be historically accurate. Even Wangxian, who seem to be completely unbothered by the homophobia around them, elope and get married. As one does when their marriage is likely forbidden. Not to mention that they are both powerful individuals with immense popularity and are revered or feared by so many and no one would dare oppose them, except close family. (No but fr imagine walking up to the inventor of modao and being “eww u like guys??” and thinking that you can survive that given the reputation that the Yiling Lazhou has. And I think its pretty self explanatory by the way that no one questions Lan Wangji when he drags “mxy” around that no one dares to bring it up.) And later they are shown being apprehensive about the acceptance of their marriage. The banquet extra shows that their marriage is accepted by Gusu Lan because Wei Wuxian sits beside Lan Wangji in it, but before that lwj was called in by Lan Qiren and most probably given another earful along with the grudging acceptance and neither do the other people at the banquet look very happy about wwx’s presence there. Yes, there is also the possibility that all of this was because wwx is the “big bad” who invented modao (and this definitely contributed to the Lan clan being against the marriage as well) but if it was only that, then the prime objective should have been clearing wwx’s name and making people believe that he’s changed for the better, or something idk. But the way wangxian deal with the unacceptance of their relationship seems like the more dominant issue is homophobia.

We also have wwx using the cover of being gay to act up based on the misguided opinions that other people have about queer people (queer people being pervy predators, etc) to make others feel disgusted and make them stay away from him so that he can avoid suspicion. And it works! Because the people are homophobic.

Anyway, that leaves no room for someone from mxy’s hierarchy to walk around freely proclaiming that he likes men without being shunned. It would cut his ticket to the throne real quick as well. Whatever he was doing at Lanling, he wasn’t doing that. (Sidenote: no one in Mo village calls mxy slurs or talks about him being a predator they all seem to be preoccupied with his lunacy and not his sexuality. Which is certainly interesting to note.)

 (Also there is a very neat irony in jgy lying about his half brother harassing him while he’s the one who is married to his own half sister. So yeah.)

[xiyao-feels]

Hi! May I ask a The Untamed question: Why does Meng Yao return the jade pass? What is it and why is it important? Lan Xichen seemed a bit upset, surprised but also resigned to it simultaneously.

Hi! So—/why/ Jin Guangyao returns the jade pass is an interesting question, and there are various different opinions on the matter. I think it's best if I start with the second part of your question: what is it and why is it important?

The Lan use the jade passes as a security measure; you need one to get in and out of CR. JGY has a pass which previously allowed him access to CR, but LXC changed it; this time, when he came, it didn't allow him in.

I think it's worth taking a fuller look at the jade passes, which in this case means looking at MDZS.

We first see them, I believe, in chapter 11. In MDZS, WWX a) believes LWJ hates him and b) doesn't realize LWJ has recognized him. He pitches a fit outside the gates of CR because he doesn't want to go inside, because without a jade token that allows you in and out, he won't be able to leave:

If he was dragged inside, it would be extremely difficult for him to come outside again. Back then, when he came to study, all of the disciples were given a jade token for passage. Only with the token, would a person be able to enter and leave freely, or else they couldn’t pass through the protective barrier of the Cloud Recesses. After ten years had passed, the security could only have gotten stricter, instead of looser.

After he's inside, he tries to see if he could escape without the token, but no dice:

Lan WangJi went to see his uncle to discuss serious matters, while Wei WuXian was pushed into the room. Right after Lan WangJi left, Wei WuXian also went outside. He strolled around the Cloud Recesses, and found that, as he had expected, without the jade token for passage, even if he climbed up the white walls of a few zhangs’ height, he would be immediately flung off by the barrier, attracting the attentions of the nearby patrolmen at once.

In chapter 65, we see that LWJ is able to detect when someone tried to come through the wards without one:

Wei WuXian slept sometime later. He was asleep until early morning when he suddenly woke up. With a shiver, he crawled forward and looked up. Lan WangJi’s was still dressed, sword was on his back. As he took back the hand that he had put on Wei WuXian’s shoulder, he stared at a white object within his palm, “We have an uninvited guest.”

Wei WuXian squinted to see. The object was the GusuLan Sect’s jade token of passage. He could recall that Lan WangJi’s token was a very high level, able to alert him if others intruded over the barrier of the GusuLan Sect.

This was JGY coming, the very same trip he returns the jade token, because now it's no longer working. WWX concludes that LWJ modified its access at some point in the last couple of days:

Wei WuXian understood now. Since ZeWu-Jun and LianFang-Zun had quite a good relationship, Lan XiChen had given Jin GuangYao a token of passage as well so that he could visit freely. However, it was likely that within the past few days he had either edited the prohibitions of the Cloud Recesses’ barrier or retracted the permission of Jin GuangYao’s token of passage. When Jin GuangYao came to visit, he was refused permission to enter, and thus he voluntarily returned the token.

In chapter 119, LWJ tells WWX that the jade token he gave him can also be used to withdraw money when he needs it:

Wei WuXian, “[…] Oh, right. HanGuang-Jun, I’m out of money. Give me a bit more, won’t you?”

Lan WangJi, “Simply take the jade token to withdraw the money.”

Wei WuXian let out a muffled laugh, “Apart from letting me in and out of the barrier, that jade token you gave me… can also let me draw money?”

“Yes.”

Though I very much doubt that Jin Guangyao ever used it for that.

I can't find reference to anyone other than JGY and WWX being given tokens permanently (like, aside from the visiting disciples), so only Jin Guangyao who didn't live among the Lan. (Although since the damn tokens aren't referred to by a single consistent name, I could be missing something.)

See also this bit in ch 80, from the second siege:

Wei WuXian laughed, “Who said that you have to go inside the Room of Forbidden Books? Wouldn’t it be fine as long as your master can go in at will? The methods of tampering with the sheet music—he was probably also the one who taught you that, right?”

A person of power free to travel in and out of the Cloud Recesses at will. There was no need to say out loud whom Su She’s master was. Everyone knew—it could only be LianFang-Zun!

It's not actually totally clear to me how much of this carries into CQL canon. For example, we don't have the WWX trying to escape from CR plotline in CQL, so from what I remember I don't think we see him testing the wards and being flung off the walls. And more than that: in CQL we don't get the scene where LWJ detects JGY's visit through his own token, meaning Wangxian's presence during the meeting comes across more as something LXC deliberately set up. I think you could read it in if you really wanted, but it's definitely reading against the text.

(Incidentally, to me in CQL LXC doesn't seem surprised when JGY puts the pass on the table, but I think he very much is surprised when JGY says I'm returning it to you; that's not the direction he was expecting this to go. Episode 43, 31:17-31:37, if you want to check yourself.)

Okay, so, now we have all the context. Why does Jin Guangyao return the jade pass? He says that it's because it stopped working, sure, fine—but why did it not working mean he returned it?

To the best of my knowledge—though as ever I could be wrong—we don't get any more information than that in the text, which means it's a matter for meta and speculation. This is where I'd usually tell you what I think and why, except... honestly, I'm not sure. I haven't yet settled on something that feels right to me.

I've seen the ideas that he was distancing himself, or that he was reacting as though it was a complete rejection—it's certainly true that being completely rejected is his usual experience, see NMJ and QS. I can follow the logic, but it doesn't quite work for me? First because it's followed by his reassuring LXC on the subject of LWJ's reputation and the possibility of CR being searched, and then inviting LXC to Carp Tower for a conference about the Burial Mounds, but also...hmmm. Retreating like that is—not really how he usually operates? You see it with NMJ, you see it with QS—he keeps reaching out, he keeps trying to explain himself. In MDZS he stops after the stairs, but at that point he's very thoroughly done with NMJ and I think we can agree he's not there with LXC; in CQL he keeps trying even after he's decided NMJ has to go. Now it's true QS literally just killed herself! so he might not be reacting as usual and all. But...mmm, I don't know. He says it himself (ch 106): “I can’t help it. To seek pity even after doing all the bad things—that’s the kind of person I am.”

Okay, so why the heck /does/ he do it? Welllll...it could be practical considerations—maybe it would be a risk for the Lan if the token got into the hands of an enemy, say, and he's not sure he'll be able to protect it. But honestly that's not very satisfying, and there doesn't seem to be any evidence in the text that I can remember? So I think it makes sense to look elsewhere.

Maybe he actually is trying to respect LXC's boundaries, especially since they don't have time to hash this out. Maybe he figures that—well, we don't know exactly how the second siege would have played out without Wangxian's intervention, but it seems pretty likely that it would have involved damaging the Lan, which is LXC's care and to whom until now JGY has been the staunchest of allies; a way of acknowledging the damage he's doing, even if it won't be understood until later. Maybe he's trying to send a message to LXC: shit is going down, are you in or out? Maybe he's trying to knock LXC off balance; LXC certainly seems off balance for the conversation, reacting rather than acting. Maybe it's to distance LXC from him in like, the potential eyes of the crowd; they've been close and public allies for so long, and now he's trying to help make sure LXC doesn't he pulled down with him if he goes down. Maybe it's a farewell gesture—not so much to LXC, but to the life he's been living, to the precise shape of relationship they had. Maybe it's giving LXC something safe to remember him by—a token, but not something it will look weird if LXC keeps, because he still hopes that LXC will want to remember him. Maybe it's meant as a reminder of the help he has given the Lan. I don't know! I don't know. I do at some point want to sit with the text and seriously work this out, but I also want to get this out for you, anon, so you actually have the information you asked for XP

I think right now I'm leaning towards—some combination of farewell to this part of the life he's been living and the shape of his relationship with LXC (but not saying farewell to /any/ relationship with LXC), and—giving LXC a token of that time. But right now I'm just not sure.

(MDZS quotes all taken from the ER translation)

[bigbadredpanda]

Hi Panda, would you happen to know what the Chinese fandom consensus on Madam Lan's backstory is? The consensus in English fandom seems to be that she was a victim of the Lan sect & abused by Qinheng-jun, but before I saw that I thought her and Qinheng-jun and the Lan sect had a misunderstanding, like wangxian in the cave vs the Lan elders after Nightless City, that sort of thing? The difference is so huge I need like an extra 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 50th opinion haha

Hi there! Mmn yes, it’s an interesting question, that part of the story is left ambiguous and led to a lot of speculation. I don’t think there’s really a consensus whether on the Chinese side or the international side. However, I’m not sure we can qualify what happened with Madam Lan and Wei Wuxian a misunderstanding. In my opinion, it’s more a difference of morality. What they did was justified from their perspective while in the eyes of others they have committed a grave crime.

Let’s look at the facts or at least what we assume to be facts.

Qingheng-Jun was a well-known and well-respected young man with a promising future ahead of him but he threw that away when he suddenly decided to marry and live in seclusion at a young age (弱冠之龄 according to the novel, the age when one receives during a coming of age ceremony the crown-like ornament men wore in their hair. It was historically 20 years old but MXTX lowered it to 15 in her setting to have the characters using courtesy names. I’m assuming that Qingheng-Jun is still meant to be 20. Anyway, brief digression). On his way home from a night hunt, he supposedly fell in love at first sight with a woman. However, that woman did not return his affect and killed his master. It’s unclear if that happened after their meeting or before. To protect her from reprisal from his Sect, Qingheng-Jun brought her to the Cloud Recesses in secret and performed with her the three bows that bound them together in marriage. Then, as an act of penance, he went in seclusion and locked away his wife in a separate cottage. That union eventually led to the birth of two sons. (Ch.64)

Of course, the big question is why did she kill Qingheng-Jun’s master? I use master because the term used here is 恩师, an honorific for an esteemed teacher towards whom the student feels grateful for his tutelage. The answer to that question is given by Lan Xichen:

“我不知，但想来无非‘恩怨是非’四个字���了。”

“I do no know but it is assumed that it came down to a ‘dispute over a past grievance’.

This is fascinating as it explains everything and nothing. 是非 is literally ‘right and wrong’, the two characters together can mean ‘quarrel’. 恩怨 is also made up of the juxtaposition of two characters with opposite meanings, ‘gratitude and grudges’ (the same character 恩 is used in the teacher honorific above). It’s a concept rooted in Chinese culture that features particularly prominently in wuxia/xianxia genres where the notions of justice and honour are core precepts. This term designates old scores that need settling, a debt that has to to be repaid sometimes tenfold. To put it simply, when someone does you or your family a favour, you have a debt of gratitude toward them. When someone wrongs you or your family, you develop a grudge towards them out of deep-seated enmity.

Wei Wuxian is the prime example of this, he went to great lengths to return the kindness he was shown by the Yunmeng Jiang Sect and by the Wen siblings. To him, it’s a moral imperative, he was duty-bound to do so just like he was duty-bound to take revenge against the Qishan Wen Sect.

It’s this same concept that motivates other characters in the story. For instance, Wen Zhuliu’s steadfast loyalty stems from a debt of gratitude (知遇之恩), Wen Ruohan recognised his worth and accepted him within the Wen Clan (hence why he changed his name to Wen) and he cannot leave that debt unpaid (Ch.62). Xue Yang repays the grudge he held against Chang Cian tenfold by exterminating the entire Yueyang Chang Sect (Ch.30).

Coming back to Madam Lan. I’ve seen some speculation from Chinese fans about the origin of that ‘grievance’ between her and Qingheng-Jun’s master. Because of the age gap between them, it is surmised that this is something that happened one generation back. Perhaps he brought harm or even killed Madam Lan’s elder, parent or teacher. It was a duty for Qingheng-Jun to bring her to justice and see about that her crime did not go unpunished. Depending on the gravity of the situation, he might have been well within his rights to kill her himself in retaliation. Instead of pursuing that cycle of revenge, he took another path that protected the woman he loved but also punished the one who had killed his master. Because he went against the Gusu Lan Sect by marrying her in secret, his penitence is to live in seclusion, separate from her and from the affairs of his Sect.

In the Chinese fandom, it is assumed that Madam Lan must have been a woman with impressive skills if she managed to kill a Gusu Lan Sect elder. Did she resist capture from Qingheng-Jun and was forcibly taken to the Cloud Recesses? Did she resign herself to her fate and accepted being confined as punishment? Did she comply and eventually grew fond of the man who became her husband? We don’t know but Lan Xichen remembers his mother as a gentle person who never voiced a complaint about her own situation.

The exact circumstances are shrouded with mystery but most meta and fics I’ve read in the Chinese fandom tend to be of the opinion that love eventually developed between Qingheng-Jun and Madam Lan. But of course, that’s the way we would rather have. What is sure is that this was a tragic ending for all parties involved, including the children left behind.

I’ve also learnt something very very interesting from the meta I’ve read concerning the gentians growing near Madam Lan’s cottage. We know that MXTX has paid special attention to flower meanings with the peony that Wei Wuxian threw to Lan Wangji in Yiling (Ch.71). The flower's alternative name is 将离花, flower of impending separation or flower for saying goodbye soon, a peony can be a parting gift between lovers or would-be lovers forced apart and can have the undertones of "Will you be with me before we part?", "Will you wait for me?" In the audio drama, it’s made clear that Wei Wuxian knew the intended meaning before offering Lan Wangji the flower. Well, due to their bitter roots, in the Chinese flower language, gentians stand for 爱上忧伤的你. Which is. Wheeze. “You’re beautiful in your melancholy.”

In the end, Qingheng-Jun and Madam Lan‘s story is used in the novel to act as a foil to Wei Wuxian and Lan Wangji’s relationship. In the past, Lan Wangji also wished to bring Wei Wuxian to the Cloud Recesses and hide him away there. But he couldn’t bring himself to because Wei Wuxian was ‘not willing’ (Ch.72). Interestingly, this story is also framed to contrast with Lan Xichen and Jin Guangyao who are sworn brothers. Remember that it’s Lan Xichen himself that recounts his parents’ story to Wei Wuxian after they have found evidence of Jin Guangyao’s treachery. Just like his father before him, he is torn between personal feelings and his duty to his sect, two conflicting allegiances. When he is asking Wei Wuxian’s opinion of whether his father did was right, what would have been the right thing to do, he is also looking for an answer for himself. Lan Wangji had made his own choice at the aftermath of the Nightless City massacre. He protected Wei Wuxian and brought him back to Burial Mounds, he took responsibility for injuring his Sect’s elders by returning to the Cloud Recesses and accepting being flayed by the discipline whip. He managed to reconcile personal devotion and his family/Sect duties with his own principles and harbours no regret.

[stiltonbasket]

Twelve Moons and a Fortnight wrap-up Q & A!

(brief note that this post does contain spoilers, so don’t click past the cut unless you’ve finished reading!)

__

1. Hi Stilton! I love you and TMAAF! The way you write the letters really feels organic and like people writing letters to other people in a time where communication wasn't instantaneous and thats a pet peeve I have with some fics that treat letters like text. I don't know if you've been asked this but what's your inspiration for the letters? Did you just make them up as they are? Did you look at old letters and studied the tone? @iwillbetrash4eva

I made the letters up as they are, but it was essential for me to keep in mind that the characters are all highly educated, and that Lan Wangji, Wei Wuxian, and Nie Huaisang in particular are very accomplished in the arts. Letters written by someone who composes music and poetry in their spare time aren’t going to be the same as emails and text messages written for the sake of raw information transfer, so I made sure to incorporate that into the letters; they’re written on pretty paper, usually in the sender’s best calligraphy, and it takes time to sit down and write them, so there’s an aspect of aesthetic reflection there that we rarely notice in modern communication.

I also felt that the characters would include snapshots of their lives and feelings while writing; this was more important with Wei Wuxian, since he throws himself so deeply into his daily life, but I also had to remember how important the past is to all of the characters and how enmeshed it is with their relevant current events. Ultimately, each letter serves as an extra look into the characters’ state of mind, which is something the narrative might not give us. 

2. What was your favorite scene in TMAAF, and which OC was the most fun to write? @keela1221

My favorite scene was Wei Wuxian’s departure from Lotus Pier in chapter 46, especially the part when everyone chased after him! I planned it several months in advance (sometime last summer, I think?) so finally getting to write it felt amazing.

Surprisingly, my favorite original characters to write (besides the main additions of Xiao-Yu, Yu Zhenhong, and Li Shuai) were the Jiang juniors. They love their Wei-zongzhu so much ;~;

3. What made you think of writing this fic? And would you consider a special epilogue because I don't think 50 chapters were nearly enough for me.❤ @avezevin

I think I just wanted to speculate about what cultivation politics might have been like after Jin Guangyao died, and TMAAF was born! And I most likely will be posting an epilogue, since I realized that the Zhenqing wedding works best as a coda instead of as a fic of its own.

4. what's your research process for tmaaf? the worldbuilding is so detailed!!

I read posts on tradition and culture and use them as sources if the chance ever comes along. A significant portion of the lore was entirely made up, but @light8828 helped me with some of the language, and offered so much guidance on cultivation worldbuilding <3

5. I really like the way you write the dynamic between Wei ying and lan zhan with their kids in all your stories. Xiao-Yu is a very lovable character and his relationship with his parents is something I go back to read many times. What do you use as inspiration when writing his, or any of his siblings, relationship with their parents?

Real life, I guess. Some of my older friends have recently had children, and they’re very good parents. :3

6. Where will you be going with the series? I need to prepare myself for heartbreak if the end is approaching, (its ok if you dont know tho! Idk is an optimistic answer, its just that you seem to have many things plotting away in that brain of yours)

Up next, I’m going to finish all the fics in the series that are still in progress, and then I’m going to write Lan Xichen’s fic, maybe a fic from Wen Qing’s point of view, a fic focusing on a reincarnated Song Lan and Xiao Xingchen, and a fic from Jin Yun’s POV focusing on his relationship with LXC and the latter’s death and ascension. This doesn’t count all the fluffy wangxian oneshots still bubbling on the back burner, so I expect this series to keep me busy well into 2022. *sweats*

7. TMAAF Q&A: when did you decide you were bringing wen qing back? what led you to making her return a result of the soul-summoning array, rather than having her have survived by some other method? @mischief7manager

I decided that Wen Qing would be returning sometime between chapters 12 and 15, since that was when I knew I wanted her to be the one to cure Wei Wuxian. And as much as I liked the idea of Wen Qing surviving, I didn’t want her to be imprisoned for the 16-year interim; it was important that she appear in TMAAF as she was before her death rather than having over a decade of character development off-screen. But she wasn’t a fierce corpse that could just be put to sleep for all that time, hence the soul-summoning.

8. For the Q&A: Stilton, how did you come up with such an adorable perfect little child like Xiao-Yu?? You write him so well it really does seem like it’s a child talking!! @whereisyourcahier​

He’s partly based on a real baby I know. :P It might sound impossible, but he’s even cuter than Xiao-Yu is.

9. Thank you for doing this Q&A! Was Xiao Yu always part of the story? (Ilhim so much!!)

He was! I always wanted Wangxian to experience parenthood together, so Xiao-Yu’s entry was planned long before he actually appeared in the fic.

10. how did you deal with any writers block that came up?

By reading comments!! I have all of you to thank for that <3<3!!!!!!

11. What was the process for plotting each arc of tmaaf? & when did you decide on what the storyline was going to be? Did you know when you started or did you incorporate stuff as you wrote?

I hashed out the whole plot at once sometime last May, and that was when I laid down the rough storyline. The overall plot was finalized by the time chapter 18 went up, though I did add further details as I went along. In particular, the mini-arc of Wei Wuxian investigating the Yangshuo plague was mostly written on the fly.

12. how long have you been planning the wen qing lang xiyan reveal? has it been something set in stone from the start?

I’ve been planning it since last April, though the exact circumstances weren’t clear until around August or September. Originally, Jiang Cheng was going to ask “Lang Xiyan” to marry him after her mourning period was over, only for her to reveal herself as Wen Qing before accepting, but I soon realized that this wouldn’t fit either of their characters. Wen Ning recognizing her was the only way the reveal made sense (both emotionally and logically) so I had to find a reason to bring him to Yunmeng at exactly the right time.

13. I just want to ask two little things (well three). Where we will be able to read the wedding of baby Zizhen and A-Qing? Will there be Chengqing? And with the last question, if it's yes, will you write a one shot, drabble or something like that?? 🥺🥺🥺

I’m going to post a 51st chapter to TMAAF with the Zhenqing wedding as an epilogue, and Jiang Cheng and Wen Qing are married by then! Wen Qing will most likely be getting a fic of her own, focusing on the time between her revival and her engagement to Jiang Cheng.

14. I just finished reading your fic and let me tell you it's one of the best I have ever had the pleasure to read :) For someone who wants to start writing, how did you start the story? Did you wrote everything with a little scheme or you just leave your brain to work in the document?

I wasn’t planning to write fic for MDZS/CQL at all, and then I randomly ended up outlining, drafting, and posting the first chapter of TMAAF within the span of around two hours. When starting a story, I think it works best for me to just let my brain work in the document without worrying too much about how it might turn out--outlines and schemes tend to come later, after I’ve gotten a feel for how the characters act and laid down some dead-basic worldbuilding.

If you’re just starting out, make sure you’re having fun and that everything you write is as self-indulgent as possible! Enjoying the process is the most important thing, worrying about all the specifics can come later. <3

[aurora077]

Intervention

Summary: Lan Xichen’s seclusion had gone on long enough, in Jiang Cheng’s opinion. It was time for an intervention. Fem!JC

Author's Note: This work is set in jiucengta ‘s haunting legacies au (https://archiveofourown.org/series/1716682)which I suggest you check out. Jiang Cheng is female and was married to Wei Wuxian before shit hit the fan. The relationships are not explicitly stated here, it's very background. I just had this idea and wanted to get it out there. I may or may not do another fic very similar to this one but not set in an AU, just post-canon instead.

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Two years had gone by since the fateful Guanyin Temple incident that rocked the cultivation world. Two years (a little more really) since Jiang Cheng’s erstwhile husband had returned from the dead. Two years (a little less actually but who’s counting) since she lost her widowed status and gained an extra love to boot somewhere in the middle. And two years since Sect Leader Lan had gone into seclusion, punishing himself for his blindness and mourning the loss of both his sworn brothers.

Normally Jiang Cheng would not stick her nose in other sects’ business. But Gusu Lan had become more than just another sect to her; it was important to those she loved and so, it was also important to her. And even if things hadn’t turned out the way they did in her personal life, Lan Xichen is someone she would have wanted to help anyway. During the thirteen years her husband had been dead he had been one of the few to show any open support for her.

She would never forget that fateful discussion conference-- the one where she’d been dubbed Wife of the Yiling Demon after she rebuffed Jin Guangshan’s attempt to pressure her into marriage (brokered by him no less-- undoubtedly trying to get her to wed one of his own relatives...control over the Jiang could only work in his favour). Loudmouthed Sect Leader Yao would have turned things even uglier for her had it not been for Lan Xichen’s timely intervention on her behalf. His steady support had helped her in more ways than one over the years despite the fact that they were not ever particularly close. With Gusu Lan seemingly in her corner, the voices that would (and initially, did) loudly decry a young female Sect Leader were forced to whisper instead.

That was why she found herself sitting opposite the man, sipping on a cup of tea as he gazed inquisitively at her.

“Sect Leader Jiang,” he greeted, sounding weary, voice containing only a trace of his former warmth, “What brings you here? As you know I am still in seclusion, technically, I should not be having visitors. Is there something urgent that you need my help with?”

“Yes,” she said, and continued bluntly as was her way, “I’m here to convince you to leave it.”

His eyes widened slightly. “Excuse me?”

“You heard me.”

It spoke to the measure of self control the Lan’s had that he didn’t simply kick her out of the hanshi.

“I beg your pardon but I don’t see how that’s any of your business.”

She cleared her throat and tried to measure her words more carefully; she didn’t want to be asked to leave before she had made her arguments and she tried to remember that this Lan Xichen had been hurt too deeply to retain his former magnanimity.

“You may not know it Lan Xichen, but outside these walls you are sorely missed.”

His lips twitched, as if he wanted to smile but couldn’t quite make it.

“I’m aware my family may miss me, Sect Leader Jiang, but I had no idea that you harbored such strong feelings towards me that you now miss my presence.”

She sputtered slightly, not expecting him to joke about it when he looked like he could keel over if she spoke too loudly. “I…” her face turned red, “That wasn’t what…”

Taking pity on her he waved her protests away, voice becoming more solemn, “Why don’t you tell me why you think I should leave my seclusion. You of all people should understand why I need to do this. It was your family hurt the most by my ignorance.”

She drew in a breath to steady herself, “Did you hold me responsible when Wei Wuxian did all the crap that he did?”

“That’s different, he was manipulated,” he frowned.

“Nobody knew that until recently Zewu-Jun. And manipulation or not he still made choices that led to a lot of harm. So I ask you again, was I to blame? Should I not have been able to stop my husband? Is it not, therefore also my fault? Maybe I should join you in seclusion since his demonic cultivation was partly because he gave me his core and had no options left.”

He looked pained, “I have never blamed you for his choices. You couldn’t help what you didn’t know. None of us knew he didn’t have a core.”

“And none of us knew Jin Guangyao was a megalomaniac either. So how can you be blamed for his choices? If you are to shoulder the blame then so should all the rest of us.”

“The rest of you weren’t his sworn brothers!” he almost shouted.

“Mingjue knew. He warned me not to trust him so many times. I dismissed him. I thought he was paranoid and misjudging A-Yao like so many others. If he could see it, why didn’t I? I wronged Da-ge in the worst way because I thought I knew better than him,” His breathing was coming out ragged, “I thought A-Yao was the one who knew me best. Who I knew best.”

It spoke to his state of mind that he even let all of that out in front of her.

“Sect Leader Jiang, the man I considered my closest companion is the man most hated by the cultivation world and reviled as a monster. How do you think I must look in comparison? I am sure there are those out there wondering if I had known and if I even helped him with all of his plans. There are people who will speculate as to the bounds of our relationship. If I did not go into seclusion they would say I had no shame, look what his sworn brother did and he’s out and about like normal. Then there are those who look at my decision to seclude myself as an indicator of guilt and may accuse me of complicity. Or they will look at my mourning and see someone who mourns a monster and who does that? Why mourn a monster? Sect Leader Yao even openly criticised your young nephew for crying at the coffin of his uncle who also helped raise him. A parentless child who saw one of his only remaining close family members die brutally after being exposed as a serious criminal, who even threatened him with bodily harm, could not grieve him without censure. What of a grown man, and a Sect Leader at that!”

“With all due respect, so what?”

“E..excuse me?” Lan Xichen was torn between being confused and insulted.

“You heard me. So. What?” she started, “So what if they think these things? Does that make it true? If Sect Leader Yao thinks that you’re an incestuous troll would that make it true? If Sect Leader Ouyang says ‘hey did you know that Sect Leader Lan likes to visit brothels in secret’ would that make it true? Just because people think something does not make it a reality. Your sect certainly does not believe you are responsible for the actions of Jin Guangyao and would stand by you if anyone insinuates otherwise. You have your brother and your uncle who love you and are worried about you. Your sect has thrived under your leadership and undoubtedly they all miss you too.”

That Lan Jingyi kid couldn’t shut up about how much he missed Zewu-Jun. And she knew Lan Zhan missed his brother and lamented that he could not do more for him. He and Lan Qiren were working themselves ragged trying to pick up the pieces. He’d hardly had time to come back to Lotus Pier and she and Wei Ying missed him dearly. They’d had to make up so many ‘official’ reasons to find themselves in the Cloud Recesses so that they could spend some time together. So yes on the one hand it would be good for them if Zewu-Jun were to leave seclusion but she wasn’t simply doing it for that reason. It was because if anyone could understand what Zewu-Jun was going through, it would be her. And she didn’t think that seclusion was going to help anything. All it would do is make him ruminate on his mistakes over and over again until he likely went mad himself.

“You said that the man you considered your closest companion turned out to be a monster. Gee, I wonder what that feels like? You said that people will wonder if you helped him with his plans, oh gee, I wonder what that feels like?” Zewu-Jun had the grace to look abashed at that.

She continued, softer, “You said people will talk about what kind of person mourns a monster. But you’re not mourning a monster, are you? When A-Ling cried over his coffin, did you blame him for it? Did you think ‘why is this child mourning when he should celebrate the end of the one who fractured his family?’ like Sect Leader Yao did?” Zewu-Jun shook his head but didn’t say anything, letting her continue.

“A-Ling was mourning the loss of the uncle he knew. And you are mourning the loss of the companion he had been to you. The world will only ever view him as a monster because the world never knew him. But you did. Maybe you didn’t know everything about him, but not everything about him was fake. I hate Jin Guangyao, I will not pretend otherwise. But I was there, Zewu-Jun. I was there, and I could see that he truly did care for you and value you. Not everything he showed you would have been fake. You of all people probably got more sincerity out of him than anyone else. And so you, of all people, have a right to mourn the man he was, the same way A-Ling still mourns the loss of the man who gifted a lonely child a dog. Not everything had an ulterior motive. Even monsters can love can’t they? Even monsters had people who loved them. I would know. So if you need to mourn him… then just mourn him.

Who gives a damn what people will say about it? People will always talk, Zewu-Jun. It doesn’t matter what you do or don’t do, people will believe what they want to believe. So why let their opinions force you into repenting for something you didn’t even do? Let them think what they want to think. It is not a crime to be deceived. We all were. Why take the world on your shoulders when you don’t actually have to? And again, with all due respect Sect Leader Lan, if I, a family-less, alliance-less woman whose husband was the most reviled personage in the jianghu, who suffered the scorn of the cultivation world for over a decade, could raise my nephew on my own and build my sect back from literal ashes into one of the strongest and most respected once again, then you, who have a strong sect and people who love you, who believe in you and will support you no matter what… you can manage to live too.”

“Sect Leader Jiang…” Zewu-Jun was at a loss for words. What could he say? It only sounded selfish and petty to claim that he suffered more than she did, because he truly didn’t. She was right after all. Sect Leader Jiang was a remarkable woman. Life had not been kind to her. And...her words struck something within him. He felt ashamed. He hadn’t even thought about what it was like for her before this. He’d never offered her any support, but here she was trying to get him to live his life again without guilt. She, whose family most assuredly suffered because of his inaction, was here telling him to let it go, to not take responsibility. But how could he do that so easily?

“How did you do it? Sect Leader Jiang...” his voice cracked, “Can you ever forgive me, for the harm that my inaction caused you and your family?” Maybe if he heard it from her, maybe he could begin to forgive himself.

She sighed. “On my part, there is nothing to forgive Zewu-Jun. And so I can’t grant you forgiveness because you haven’t done me any wrong. But there are a few people who do deserve an apology from you. And your seclusion is a self-imposed punishment that you feel you deserve but at the end of the day, it does not actually do anything tangible when it comes to making amends to those who have been hurt.”

He was silent for a moment, stunned by her words. He hadn’t considered that his seclusion might have been causing others even more harm than he’d already done to them. Sect Leader Jiang was wise (she would disagree...she’d just learned from bitter experience in her opinion). He felt like he’d done her a great disservice all of these years, by not making an effort to reach out to her.

“Please, tell me. I.. I confess I no longer trust my judgement. I thought I knew A-Yao. I thought I was a good judge of character. I no longer know how to tell what is up from down. All I know is that I was so, so wrong about A-Yao. If you say that I have not harmed you then I am glad. I would hate to be the cause of more pain. You said that I am not responsible for A-Yao’s actions, and though it isn’t easy to believe that just yet, if there are those who I have truly wronged then please...please tell me. I still don’t know if I am ready to leave seclusion, if I even know how to, but I need to atone for my actions.”

Jiang Cheng nodded, “That’s the right attitude at least. So to start with I’d say you need to have a chat with Huaisang.”

His eyes widened, “I… I don’t know if that’s such a good idea, Sect Leader Jiang.” His face darkened slightly. He wasn’t pleased with Huaisang at the moment. It felt like he never even knew him.

“And why not? Out of everyone, it’s Huaisang that you unintentionally hurt. And I don’t mean because of not listening to Nie Mingjue. His death was not your fault.” He was about to protest but she cut him off. “It wasn’t. I told you, stop taking responsibility for what isn’t your fault and own up to what is.”

He sighed heavily, “If it’s not about Da-ge then how did I wrong Huaisang?”

“Well for one, you’re still his Er-ge. Yet you seem to have forgotten that in lieu of what happened in the temple. Huaisang… has lost everyone. He may have been acting like a shady shit for the past however many years but… do you know what it’s like to be the last one of your family, Zewu-Jun? To have nobody beside you except subordinates?” He inhaled sharply. “I.. I hadn’t thought of that,” he said mournfully. How much did he just not consider? What kind of a person was he that he resented Huaisang for his deceit but yet did not consider for one moment that Huaisang may have done those things because he thought he was all alone and could not come to him for help? What kind of brother was he that his little brother could not confide in him? He should have been there for Huaisang, instead he had thought so highly of Jin Guangyao, even dismissing da-ge’s claims, that Huaisang had not dared to approach him with his suspicions.

Sect Leader Jiang was being very understanding however, “Zewu-Jun, I know you’re not pleased with Huaisang. I know there are many things that he’s done that are not right. I know there’s a possibility that he lied and forced your hand at the end. Believe me, I know the feeling...more than anyone, I know what it feels like to be deceived by someone you love...to kill someone you love. I know what it feels like when everyone praises you for it. Like you did such a great thing and you should be happy and celebrating with everyone else, except you can’t because your heart has shattered…has been ripped to shreds.

As someone who once loved a so-called monster...as someone who as good as killed that person with their own hands, I understand better than anyone what you’re going through. What Huaisang did was cruel, even though I’m glad Jin Guangyao is dead. It was cruel to have you be the one to end him. Huaisang likely knew that Jin Guangyao valued you. He knew it would be the worst end for him to be killed by your hand. I can’t speak for Huaisang, but I don’t believe he did it to hurt you, even though that’s inevitably what happened anyway. He did it to hurt Jin Guangyao. But even though it was not kind of him to have you be the arbiter of justice, he still deserves to have his Er-ge in his life.

She paused remembering the pain of losing her husband and sister all in one night.

She didn't have to imagine how Huaisang would have felt at losing the last member of his family at the hands of someone he cared about.“You and I aren’t the only ones who were deceived by someone we loved. Huaisang loved Jin Guangyao too, didn’t he? He loved and trusted him. When Nie Mingjue was getting worse, didn’t Huaisang trust and rely on both you and Jin Guangyao? It wasn’t a front. You were both dear to him. He loved him. He loved him and was betrayed by him in the worst way. And then yes, he orchestrated a whole convoluted plan to have him exposed and killed.

But you and I can both attest that justice, and even revenge, doesn’t stop the pain does it? Huaisang avenged his brother, but he lost another in the process, the same way you did. Don’t let him lose you too. You said you wronged Nie Mingjue by not listening to him. I think you’d wrong him even more if you left his little brother alone, without anyone to call family. You don’t have to forgive Huaisang right away, or at all if you don’t want to, but eventually you should at least try and reconcile with him. You’re his big brother... the only one left. And you know, Huaisang would have had the realisation that he was fooled by Jin Guangyao all on his own. But you don’t have to be alone.

Huaisang and you share the experience of being blinded by him. It would be much easier to talk to someone who has gone through the same things, no? Huaisang is there. And I am here. You don’t have to endure this on your own. We may not be very close Zewu-Jun, but we can understand each other, not so? So I’m here if you need someone to confide in. And Huaisang...Huaisang must be waiting too. For his Er-ge. You both owe each other apologies.”

By the time she was done speaking there were tears rolling down his face. She didn’t think it was quite appropriate given their positions, (though she was sort of his secret sister-in-law so really, he counted as family) but she moved over to his side and embraced him. If he was surprised he didn’t show it, only moving to cling to her more tightly and sob with a ferocity that had her a bit surprised. She wondered if this was the first time since the temple that he’d allowed himself to fully grieve what he had lost, without the guilt of letting his sworn brother die, killing the other one, and feeling bad for mourning for someone who he should hate.

Everyone praised him for killing Jin Guangyao however, it was something he didn’t want to be praised for. But what could he say? That he hated the fact that he killed him? He was right about one thing, if he ever said something like that people would most assuredly say he was complicit and probably want to implicate him. Jiang Cheng of all people knew how hard it was to listen to people praising you for a deed you were not proud of. And so she was the only person who would understand. The only person who would, who could, acknowledge the hurt it would have caused him to do what he did, especially if he was tricked into it.

His feelings about Huaisang would be complicated, but it wasn’t too late to reconcile as long as they were both alive.

She rubbed his back consolingly and just let him cry. It must have been no more than 15 minutes, but it felt much longer, before his tears slowed. When his sobs petered out he tried to compose himself. She let go of him and he embarrassedly turned away, sipping his tea. He cleared his throat, “I’m sorry Sect Leader Jiang, that was unbecoming of me.”

“Don’t mention it,” she waved off. She was there to help after all.

“I will give your words due consideration. It was remiss of me to forget that I was not the only one affected by A-Yao’s schemes. I truly regret not thinking of how Huaisang would have felt when he first found out. You are right. I have done my little brother a disservice,” he said, voice croaky from his bout of sobbing.

“You said that there were people I needed to apologise to. Who else have I wronged?” he continued. His respect and admiration for Sect Leader Jiang had grown exponentially since the start of this visit. He would take her words under advisement if he could.

“Oh Zewu-Jun,” she sighed, “What you’re doing with this seclusion, doesn’t it remind you of someone? Because it sure reminds your uncle.”

Zewu-Jun looked as if she had slapped him.

“Nobody would begrudge you needing time to grieve and to come to terms with what happened, it is human nature. It’s understandable. We were all blindsided. And I understand the wish to seclude yourself because I wish I could have as well, though I didn’t have the luxury,” she said, not unkindly but it made him wince anyway, “But it’s been too long. A few months would be okay, though grief will last longer than that, but more than that is just being unfair to others. You are the Sect Leader. Your uncle has already had to watch his brother shirk his duties and seclude himself from the world for the rest of his life.

Your uncle has had to pick up the slack. He raised you and your brother like a father would, while taking care of sect matters. None of those things were his responsibility yet he did it. And now… now he has to go through it all over again. Master Lan is elderly though and he cannot keep up with all of the duties required of an elder, teacher and now Sect Leader once more. And so that leads me to the last person that you have wronged.

Lan Zhan is Chief Cultivator now, did you know? His duties are myriad and yet he has to come back here and help Master Lan run the sect. It pains Master Lan to see history repeating itself. A younger brother once again has to take the reins from his older brother and he does it without complaint, because he loves you. But it is unfair to A-Zhan. He can’t live his own life because he’s too busy living yours. He’s barely managing to keep up with both sets of duties, but he’s doing it for you. It has been two years, Zewu-Jun. He worries so much about you, as does your uncle. It pains them to see you this way. And so Sect Leader Lan,” she pointedly used his rank, “I beg of you to consider leaving your seclusion. You have people who love you waiting for you. Your family needs you.”

His eyes were glittering once more, but no tears were shed this time. He swallowed thickly. The past few months it had seemed as if he was living in a fog. He’d barely managed to keep his routine up, it was only through decades of strict routine that he’d gotten himself off the bed and eaten his food and meditated everyday on his shortcomings. But it seemed that while he was doing that he’d missed quite a few. Because she was right wasn’t she? He hid himself away like a coward and didn’t even think about how it would affect Wangji and Uncle. He hadn’t even considered how hurt his uncle would feel to see him go down the same route as his father.

Her words were like a splash of cold water. It seemed to wake him up; it got him out of the daze he was in. If this woman before him could raise a child and a sect from the ashes all alone after going through more tragedy than a hundred people in one lifetime would...he could get himself in gear and do what he had to do. He felt ashamed in front of her. She was right that she didn’t have the luxury to seclude herself. But he did. He did, and he took advantage of the support system that he had to take time for himself. More time than he should have.

She said it was understandable, and maybe it was, but she was also right that it should not have been going on for this long. He had no desire to be Qingheng-Jun the second. But if she hadn’t come here today… if she hadn’t said all that she had said… He would not have even thought of those things. He was too busy thinking of himself. It was likely that he would have stayed for years in his seclusion, just ruminating on what went wrong and what he could have changed. It was all too easy to get caught up in could-have-beens.

“Sect Leader Jiang,” he said, devastated at the thought of his uncle, the man who raised him when he didn’t have to, who did his best to prevent them from turning out like their father, thinking that he had failed when it was Lan Xichen who failed, “I’ve heard you loud and clear. But…”

“But?”

“But I don’t know if I even know how to go about being Sect Leader anymore. I feel like the decisions I make would be questionable now. How can I trust that I will do what’s best for the sect? I have already failed in so many ways. Now I have failed Wangji and Uncle too.”

“What did I tell you? You’re not alone Zewu-Jun. You don’t have to leave seclusion immediately. You don’t even have to start doing everything right away. Ease back into it. Your family will be there to help you. I’m offering to help you. If you need to talk about things that you can’t with them, you can write to me. Master Qiren should not have to be taking on these responsibilities any longer and A-Zhan needs to have time to breathe...his own position is challenging enough. Besides you haven’t failed, you’ve just had some setbacks is all. Failure would be wallowing in self-pity forever and leaving everyone else to do your duties indefinitely,” she looked at him pointedly. He got the hint.

“Okay Sect Leader Jiang. I shall take you up on that then. But I do have a question if you’ll indulge me,” he said.

“Shoot.”

“I mean no offense at all, in fact I’m actually extremely grateful for your concern, but I am curious….why do you even care? You didn’t have to do any of this. I’m well aware that you have your own duties and worries. Why bother about mine?”

She smiled for the first time since she walked into the Hanshi. He was struck by it. It had been a long time since he’d seen her smile... truly smile. In fact, the last time he’d seen a smile as bright as that on her face was probably right here in the Cloud Recesses when she was a student.

“You may not remember it, Zewu-Jun, but there was a time Jin Guangshan sought to marry me off. It was your words of support for me, against that awful Sect Leader Yao, that saved my skin, though they still called me Wife of the Yiling Demon after that. But at least I was only his wife. I will be eternally grateful to you for that. It was thanks to your words that nobody else tried to make me marry. I was able to focus on my sect in relative peace. It was a kindness that I have never been able to repay until now, though you shouldn’t think that it is only because of repayment.”

She got up and dusted off her clothes perfunctorily.

“I shall take my leave now, Zewu-Jun.”

“Please, call me Xichen,” he said, thinking that after all of the things that were said that day, she might as well.

“Well then, Xichen you may call me Wanyin. Thank you for hearing me out and please forgive me for barging in unexpectedly. I have intruded upon your hospitality long enough.”

“It is no matter,” he said, and for the first time in a long while he was able to manage a weak smile, “I was honored by your company. If you did not give me so much to think about, I would offer you some more tea.”

She laughed, “Thank you Xichen, but I will be missed soon anyway. I do not need to cause an uproar in Cloud Recesses if they can’t find a Sect Leader. Plus the scandal that would happen if someone other than A-Zhan or A-Yuan finds me in here will not be pleasant.”

“A-Zhan?” he raised an eyebrow, “Is there something I should know about, Wanyin?”

She snorted and threw him a cheeky smirk, “If you want to find out you’ll have to come to Lotus Pier.” And with that she saw herself out, leaving nothing but the scent of lotuses behind her.

Huh. Well then. How curious. He’d thought that Wangji had gone off with Wei Wuxian, who he’d been in love with since he met him. How did Sect Leader Jiang factor into this? As far as he knew they didn’t even particularly like each other. It seemed like he missed quite a lot while he was in seclusion. Was his little brother in a love triangle? It would explain why Wanyin said that he shouldn’t only think of her visit as repayment to him. It wasn’t the purest motivation but huh maybe he would leave seclusion after all. His brother might need support in more ways than one. Sect Leader Lan leaving seclusion because he was too invested in his brother’s love life was a hilarious thought, and for the first time in two years, he chuckled mirthfully to himself. Maybe he would be okay after all.

[hamliet]

Hey there! I’d like to ask something, if you’re ok with that. In mdzs, a lot of people say that despite JC being so antagonistic towards WWX, he still loves him and misses him. I don’t see how, his actions in any version of the story say the exact opposite to me. Maybe one needs to look between the lines to see it, but I’m horrible at reading others, so if I may bother you and ask what your thoughts are on the subject?

Hey! You are always welcome to ask me questions about MDZS. Especially while we’re all trapped inside.

So I will say I do think Jiang Cheng does indeed love and miss Wei Wuxian. I also think the fandom has a tendency to wipe away Jiang Cheng’s extremely serious flaws (especially in comparison to, say, how they treat Jin Guangyao’s flaws in comparison). Jiang Cheng is very much a foil for Jin Guangyao and for Madame Yu, Wei Wuxian, and Jin Ling (as well as Su She, but that’s perhaps for another meta).

Jiang Cheng’s fundamental defense mechanism is projection. We know already that he is insecure–the way his father treated him is horrible. Madame Yu, in turn, was very clearly projecting her own insecurities onto her son:

Jiang Cheng was stuck between his father and his mother. After a moment of hesitation, he moved to his mother’s side. Holding his shoulders, Madam Yu pushed him forward for Jiang FengMian to see, “Sect Leader Jiang, it seems that some things I have to say. Look carefully—this, is your own son, the future head of Lotus Pier. Even if you frown upon him just because I was the one who bore him, his surname is still Jiang! … I don’t believe for one second that you haven’t heard of how the outside people gossips, that Sect Leader Jiang has still not moved on from a certain Sanren though so many years have passed, regarding the son of his old friend as a son of his own; they’re speculating if Wei Ying is your…”

She’s really asking: I’m here, so why don’t you care about me? Do you really prefer a dead Cangse Sanren to me? But the tragic irony is that the way in which she asks this question only pushes Jiang Fengmian away. And yet, she did love him, which Jiang Fengmian realizes when, in the end, he finds out Madame Yu had taught Zidian to obey his command as well as hers. Zidian is a symbol of her pride and heritage.

Let’s also look at MXTX’s description of Jiang Cheng’s ideal woman. While it’s not in the novel and is extra material, it’s a perfect example of projection:

naturally beautiful, graceful and obedient, hard-working and thrifty, coming from a respected family, cultivation level not too high, personality not too strong, not too talkative, voice not too loud and must treat Jin Ling nicely. 

Is he looking for a wife, or is he looking for Shijie to mother Jin Ling? Because he’s 100% describing Jiang Yanli.

Jiang Cheng does exactly what his mother did to him to Wei Wuxian. He projects his own insecurities, the very ones Madame Yu identified (great job mothering there), onto Wei Wuxian. Why does he hate Wei Wuxian? He hates Wei Wuxian for killing Shijie, when it was Shijie’s own choice to sacrifice herself, and Jiang Cheng then rendered her last sacrifice moot by killing his shixiong. So does Jiang Cheng hate Wei Wuxian, or does he hate himself for killing his sibling in a moment of rage?

It goes deeper, though. Because we see that Jiang Cheng’s fundamental issue is that he hates himself, because he is not as good at cultivation nor as strong as Wei Wuxian, and his father doesn’t love him as much as he loves Wei Wuxian. A child’s mind is going to connect that to “if I’m stronger, Dad will love me.” Jiang Cheng never grew out of this mindset. But what is strength to Jiang Cheng?

It’s protecting the people he loves. So Shijie’s death? He blames himself. One of Jiang Cheng’s most vulnerable moments is when he begs Wei Wuxian to turn away from Yiling and the Wens, because “I can’t protect you.” He wants to protect Wei Wuxian because he couldn’t protect his parents, yet he wants to protect himself more. It’s tragic. What Jin Guangyao said to Jiang Cheng in the temple is true, though of course, it’s not so simple as to be Jiang Cheng’s fault solely. But his insecurities did play a role and were indeed exploited by a cruel, calculating society:

“… Back then, the LanlingJin Sect, the QingheNie Sect, and the GusuLan Sect had already finished fighting over the biggest share. The rest could only get some small shrimps. You, on the other hand, had just rebuilt Lotus Pier and behind you was the YiLing Patriarch, Wei WuXian, the danger of whom was immeasurable. Do you think the other sects would like to see a young sect leader who was so advantaged? Luckily, you didn’t seem to be on good terms with your shixiong, and since everyone thought there was an opportunity, of course they’d add fuels to your fire if they could. No matter what, to weaken the YunmengJiang Sect was to strengthen themselves. Sect Leader Jiang, if only your attitude towards your shixiong was just a bit better, showing everyone that your bond was too strong to be broken for them to have a chance, or if you exhibited just a bit more tolerance after what happened, things wouldn’t have become what they were. Oh, speaking of it, you were also a main force of the siege at Burial Mound…”

Jin Guangyao isn’t wrong here, and unlike Jiang Cheng, he’s aware that society sucks but tries to join it anyways. Jiang Cheng grew up privileged despite his sad home life, and therefore never examined whether society was fair or not (as is reinforced by the early conversation Jiang Cheng and Wei Wuxian have about Jin Guangyao, in which Wei Wuxian expresses that he likes Jin Guangyao and Jiang Cheng says that, as the son of a whore, Jin Guangyao will only be able to climb so far, yet expresses no deeper concern about this). Jin Guangyao’s tragedy was trying to join society in an effort to prove himself to his father, and Jiang Cheng’s tragedy was not examining himself and his role in society in an effort to prove himself to his father as well, both fathers of whom would be better off ignored. Jiang Cheng did rebuild Lotus Pier, but Wei Wuxian learns that the local people are terrified of Jiang Cheng and hate him, while Jin Guangyao actually did protect the common people, yet Jiang Cheng still has a chance to redeem himself in the end and Jin Guangyao does not, which can be chalked up in great part due to privilege.

This isn’t to argue Jiang Cheng is worse than Jin Guangyao, because better/worse is moot in the world of MDZS. The point is that both Jiang Cheng and Jin Guangyao bring about the death of a brother by prioritizing their own wellbeing and proving themselves to the fathers whose approval it is impossible to win (because the problem is with them rather than with Jiang Cheng or Jin Guangyao themselves), would have/did kill a child on the basis of their parentage (Wen Yuan was rescued by Lan Wangji or he would absolutely have been killed, Jin Guangyao does kill A-Song–it doesn’t matter whether or not either of them did/would have done it personally; at the very least they set in motion events they knew would result in a child’s death), and yet both raised and genuinely loved Jin Ling (as Jin Ling himself concludes in the end).

But in regards to Jin Ling, Jiang Cheng’s insecurities make it impossible for him to communicate well with the people he loves. He warns Jin Ling not to come back unless he accomplishes something on Dafan Mountain, which almost gets Jin Ling killed trying to prove himself. (I wrote more about that in this meta here.)

After Wei Wuxian’s resurrection, Jiang Cheng proves that he doesn’t hate Wei Wuxian several times despite claiming he does. Firstly? When Jin Guangyao accuses Mo Xuanyu of being Wei Wuxian in the middle of a crowd, Jiang Cheng could easily turn him in  and be rid of him since Jiang Cheng already knows it. And yet, Jiang Cheng does not do so, even when called upon; instead, his indecision is noted. Secondly, he kept Chenqing with him all these years, when he very easily could have destroyed it (which is another parallel to Jin Guangyao, who kept Suibian, an ultimately useless sword); the flute, on the other hand, is a symbol of demonic cultivation and yet Jiang Cheng does not get rid of it. He went so far as to torture other demonic cultivators to death, many of whom are noted to have been innocent, and yet he kept demonic cultivational tools with him, because it was his brother’s–which also, yes, shows how he hates himself and kind of wants to punish himself, too.

And, of course, there’s the sacrifice that Jiang Cheng never reveals (at least not by the novel’s end). He sacrificed his own life to save Wei Wuxian from the Wens, was willing to give up what he always wanted–to lead Lotus Pier and thereby earn his father’s respect–to save Wei Wuxian’s life. Yet, in the end that led to Wei Wuxian sacrificing his golden core for Jiang Cheng, and in the end, Jiang Cheng can’t tell Wei Wuxian for the same reason Wei Wuxian couldn’t tell Jiang Cheng in his first life: it would sound like an excuse. So, again, Jiang Cheng’s pride is getting in the way–yet, at least this time, he is willing to sacrifice looking good and look worse for the sake of letting Wei Wuxian go.

However, I think there’s reason to hope, as I’ve said before. I did not interpret that ending to mean their relationship was over or could never be significantly close again. Wei Wuxian has let go of a lot of his pride and learned some hard lessons about self-sacrifice and protecting people, and the younger generation is making so much room for nuance and kindness and thereby challenging society. I personally assumed they’d have that conversation eventually, but we didn’t need to see it to assume it would happen.

[candicewright]

Kindly requesting that analysis on wangxian being peak romance and how it compares to queerbaiting please 🙏 🙏 🙏

Hello, anon! I am very genuinely happy that my rambling thoughts interest you in any way (because I have a lot of thoughts) so here is my analysis as promised. It is veeeery long (almost 2k), sorry about that but I’ve really been looking forward to talking about this for a very long time. In the end, it isn’t so much about how Wangxian is peak romance and more about the censorship and how it compares to queerbaiting, I may have to do another post about that later on. Without much further ado, here it is!

The Untamed’s tasteful censorship vs. BBC Merlin’s queerbaiting and why I prefer one over the other.

I know most people follow this blog for Merlin and believe me when I say that I love this show more than I can say because it has quite literally changed my life. But The Untamed has opened my mind to a whole new world (insert Aladdin’s A Whole New World here) and it has given me a lot of perspective on a lot of things.

I often joke with my friends saying that my first consideration when choosing a new show to watch is saying “is it gay?” which is not far from the truth, but it’s also not the complete story. What I mean is that I ask myself “does this show have a relationship that I think is worth getting invested in?”. Yes, t usually happens that those are not heterosexual romances, but what can I say, I’m queer and I like my emotional support fictional characters to be so too. This is the exact reasoning that led me to Merlin. I saw a couple of videos about them on youtube and immediately found their dynamic compelling and their story beautifully tragic. But like with most shows these days, the writers failed (among other things) to make their relationship explicit. This has happened with every show I watched after Merlin too; The Witcher, Sherlock and Good Omens being the most notable ones. 

You can argue if they are or are not queerbaiting, I at least think Good Omens isn’t, but again, it is pretty subjective.

But i had grown so accustomed to this type of media that I fully went into The Untamed expecting something similar.

And oh boy was I wrong.

Now, the case of The Untamed is a curious one because it is supposed to be a love story between two men due to being based on a BL novel, but because of censorship, it had to be very toned down. I found this out right before actually watching the show while doing some preliminary research and while it did change my thought on what I was getting into I truly thought they would just erase the entire relationship and try to hide it behind straight relationships like in most other shows I had watched.

But that was absolutely not the case, to my endless relief and joy.

But how? How did they get away with censoring all the explicit aspects of a romantic relationship while still managing to tell a wonderful love story? And how does this compare to the queerbaiting of a show like Merlin?

Warning: I will be using different parts of both shows and probably some of the MDZS novel to illustrate my point, so there will be spoilers.

The initial accidental chemistry + innuendos vs. The establishment of the very clear enemies to friends to lovers trope

I’m going to use Merlin to compare and contrast this because it’s what I know best and the other show I've given a lot of thought to.

Merthur and Wangxian are both similar and different dynamics in the way they’re written and it was one of the things that drew me into The Untamed in the first place. Both stories begin with our main duo meeting and instantly disliking each other, ending up in a fight. And while they both set the story up to lead to a more intimate bond being created between the pairs, there’s something very different from the start.

Merthur is deliberately set up to be a close friendship and all innuendos and chemistry are accidental (in my opinion and only at the start). Let me explain.

The concept for Merlin clearly started with the idea of how the story would change if Merlin was a young boy arriving in Camelot instead of an old powerful sorcerer. Then they made the main plot to be his destiny/friendship with the young and arrogant Prince Arthur. I truly believe that the first innuendos were not what they intended and that all chemistry and sexual tension between the characters comes courtesy of Colin and Bradley and how undeniably good they look on screen together. Fans then started speculating (as we always do) and then the production team decided to run with it, making it almost a recurring joke when it shouldn’t have been. Had they treated that developing relationship seriously like what they were hinting it was, the show would have been very different.

The Untamed on the other hand, is everything but accidental. What they’re doing is deliberately establishing the enemies to friends to lovers trope from the very beginning. It’s not an accident that during their first fight on the roof of the Cloud Recesses Wei Wuxian tells Lan Wangji that women would find his true character very disappointing and that no one would want to marry him. he says so several times in fact and this is clearly both to highlight the change in their relationship as well as to say that Lan Wangji is not at all interested in the opinion of any female (or anyone besides Wei Wuxian for that matter). This is the same stuff we see in mainstream straight romances: one of the characters saying something to the effect of “who would want to date them?” only to end up involved with the other at the end of the story.

You could argue that Merlin does something similar with the conversation between Merlin and Kilgharrah where Merlin is affronted by the idea of having to help Arthur where he says “There must be another Arthur because this one’s an idiot...If someone wants to kill him, they can go right ahead. In fact, I’ll give them a hand.” but the difference between these two is that Merlin is hiding behind the guise of destiny and friendship to make these parallels while Wangxian is deliberately and clearly in a romantic context.

The deliberate continuation of the subtext vs. The suggestion of something more

The accidental nature of the subtext doesn’t last long and in true BBC fashion, it turns into full-on queerbaiting real fast. Again, you can argue endlessly about when the deliberately suggestive comments start, but by the end of the show, we know for a fact the entire production staff and even the staff were aware of the effect and reception their show was having. This was no longer an innocent mistake on people reading too much into it, it was a very purposeful narrative that they were pushing without ever truly committing to it. This is what got fans going crazy over “poetry” or lines like “you’re the only friend I have and I couldn’t bear to lose you”. These are all very intentional choices they made to keep their devoted fanbase interested and while we’re all very thankful for this material it really keeps us wondering what it could have been if they had taken that extra step.

The Untamed can’t take that step because of the censorship laws, but it’s still much more daring than Merlin ever was. While Merlin keeps the soulmate aspect of the Merthur relationship a suggestion, The Untamed outright says it, which was baffling to me. It even does it at a pint where the first kiss happened in the novel, which you would think makes it less romantic. But that's absolutely not the case because of both the non-consensual nature of that original kiss and because of how heartbreakingly beautiful the replacement scene is. Not only that, but they also keep all the elements you could expect to see in any pre-relationship stage of a developing romance story: endless amounts of mutual pining, not-really-unrequited love, jealousy, panicking at the sight of your crush (yes I’m looking at you 15-year-old Lan Wangji) and even some fun in vino veritas moments. They even have a son together! It doesn’t get more clear than that!

This is all the way the show has of suggesting something more without outright saying (even though it’s a pretty not subtle way of suggesting it).

Merlin, on the other hand, keeps trying to deny the romantic nature of the Merthur dynamic, which brings me to my next point.

The introduction of a female love interest as an excuse vs. The awareness that the audience understands the relationship in the way it's meant to be

Now, this one really bugs me, because of all the ways they could have done this they truly chose the worst and destroyed Gwen’s character in the process. 

In my opinion, the writers could have done a few different things. They could have fully developed the Merthur relationship as a romantic one while keeping Gwen’s role as a queen and creating a much more satisfying character arch for her, maybe even getting her together with Morgana or Lancelot. They could have focused on the Awen romance and therefore lowered the suggestions of romance between Merlin and Arthur, once again creating a much more enjoyable subplot for Gwen, though it could have also meant sacrificing the very powerful bond between the main characters. They could have even taken advantage of Gwen’s crush on Merlin in the first season and gone on the full-on polyamory direction! That would have been much better! Instead, they halfassed the romance between Arthur and Gwen and made it just...meh. Not that Angel and Bradley didn’t do a great job, it was more of a writing problem than a them problem.

The Untamed (despite the rumours and possibilities of a Wen Qing/Wei Wuxian relationship) decided to just run with the not really platonic relationship between Lan Wangji and Wei Wuxian, making them the complete focus of the story while still upholding the censorship laws. What I think the biggest difference between the two shows is, is that one runs on assuming the audience is stupid while the other one assumes the audience is smart.

Let me explain once more.

The Merlin writers clearly thought that by introducing Gwen as the love interest to Arthur he would just become what? Magically straight? As if we hadn’t seen the last four seasons of sexual tension between him and Merlin? The audience was not fooled for the most part, but some people did fall for this, coming with the argument “But he’s married to Gwen so he’s straight!” as if being gay or straight are the only two possibilities but oh well.

The Untamed does quite the opposite. It relies on the fact that the audience is going to catch onto the romantic aspect of the narrative without them actively saying anything because we are Not Dumb. It also does something that I think is quite beautiful which is leaving it up for interpretation as far as whether it’s platonic or not and even more touching is the way the story has resonated with the ace community (that is according to what I’ve seen, please do correct me if I’m wrong) by focusing on their emotional and intellectual connection instead of in their physical and sexual one.

This is why, in the end, I prefer what I call The Untamed’s tasteful censorship over Merlin and other shows’ blatant queerbaiting.

I feel the need after all of this to state that Merlin is still my favorite show of all time and that this is not by any means me saying that Merlin is absolute trash or something like that. There’s also a lot more that I think can be said in this conversation, so please feel free to tell me what you think and if you’ve ever encountered something similar to this.

Also, if I made any mistakes or wrong points, please don’t be shy about telling me!

I hope this rant was at least somewhat interesting and that you found it satisfactory, anon!

[farmerlan]

Farmer Lan’s Rewatch Guide to The Untamed - Episode 11

Jiang Fengmian’s palms getting real sweaty rn

episode masterlist here

SPOILER WARNING!  

[Jin Guangyao takes his leave and Wei Wuxian and Jiang Cheng decide to return to the Lotus Pier. Jiang Cheng is worried about being punished for leaving without permission and grouses that he will never stop getting into trouble because of Wei Wuxian. When Jiang Fengmian appears, he seems unusually concerned about whether they encountered any trouble along the way as opposed to whether they stirred up any trouble.]

Differences from the novel:

This pretty much doesn’t happen since none of the events leading up to it happens in the novel.

It’s kind of interesting because I think the show makes Jiang Fengmian appear more disciplinarian than he is in the novel? In the drama, he definitely harshly rebuked Wei Wuxian at the Cloud Recesses and Jiang Cheng mentioned being punished by him. But in the novel Madam Yu was 100% the disciplinarian and Jiang Fengmian either was way too relaxed (with Wei Wuxian) or just didn’t care (with Jiang Cheng).

[Jiang Yanli arrives as well and they all sit down for lunch when Madam Yu shows up. I LOVE how her entrance is accompanied by villainous music. She has a bone to pick with...well, just about everybody. She goes off about the Wen ‘indoctrination’ and the unfairness of Jiang Cheng being forced to go as the heir while Wei Wuxian is given a choice. She doesn’t give face to ANYBODY, picking on Jiang Yanli, Jiang Cheng, and Wei Wuxian in turn.]

Differences from the novel:

This does happen in Chapter 51, pretty much almost word for word. There is, I think, some interesting nuance in her choice of words here that might have been missed if you relied on the Netflix subs (which kind of suck, sorry), so I summarized my thoughts in the overall section below.

[Lan Wangji is ambushed by Wen Chao on his way back, but manages to escape. Lan Xichen and Lan Qiren do the whole “no, YOU leave and I stay” routine and Lan Xichen finally accepts that he must escape with the Lan archives. We watch the Lan disciples get massacred.

Wei Wuxian and Jiang Cheng disclose their involvement with the Yin metal to Jiang Fengmian, and Jiang Fengmian speculates that while the Wen sect won’t come for them YET, the Lan sect is likely in deeper shit than the rest of them due to their involvement with the Yin metal. 

The Lan disciples and Lan Qiren convene outside the cold cave, and are joined by Lan Wangji. They make it into the cold cave, but are betrayed by Su She. Lan Wangji tells Wen Xu to leave the Cloud Recesses in exchange for the Yin metal - and gets one of his legs broken.]

Differences from the novel:

We don’t really get to see what happens at the Lan sect during the burning of the Cloud Recesses - we only learn of it through what was recounted by Lan Wangji. He does get his leg broken though.

Lan Xichen claims he cannot leave because he is the sect leader, implying that their father is already dead. However, in the novel, the raid happens when their father, Qingheng-Jun, is still alive. In Chapter 55, while trapped in the tortoise cave, Lan Wangji mentions that when he left for the Wen indoctrination, his father was severely injured in the attack, and Lan Xichen escaped with as much of the sect’s archives as possible,  with his current whereabouts unknown. When Wei Wuxian awakens at Lotus Pier afterwards, he learns from Jiang Cheng that Qingheng-Jun had passed away while they were at the Wen sect. :(

Ambush doesn’t happen, and the Su She/cold cave scene doesn’t happen. In the flashback timeline, Su She really only shows up twice - once as part of the water ghosts excursion and once at the tortoise cave.

[Back at the Lotus Pier, Wei Wuxian demonstrates his archery prowess. Jiang Cheng says, ‘Shooting under their sun won’t be as easy as today” - on the surface a reference to the weather, but keep in mind that the Wen sect’s symbol is the sun, and in Chinese what he said can also be translated as “THIS sun” (这太阳), right after one of the disciples mentions the Wen sect, so it’s literally foreshadowing the eventual Sunshot Campaign (射日). 

Wen Ruohan is displeased that Wen Qing lets Lan Wangji and Wei Wuxian escape, and she promises that there will not be a next time. Meanwhile, Jiang Cheng and Wei Wuxian are headed to Qishan and Jiang Fengmian sends them off with his famous line, “明知不可为而为之，有所不为，方有可为”.

They arrive at Qishan and we see some familiar faces, but the Lan sect is conspicuously missing. Wen Chao makes his appearance and the Wen guards bring in Lan Wangji, and then demands they surrender their swords.]

Differences from the novel:

I have thoughts about the English translation of the Jiang sect’s motto (“attempting the impossible”), I’ll save them for down below. Also - Jiang Fengmian never says the latter half the line in the novel - only the motto (明知不可而为之).

In the novel, they are practicing archery/fooling around right before Madam Yu shows up to admonish them, and then they learn about the Wen sect indoctrination. So the sequence of events is flipped around.

Since Lan Wangji didn’t have to surrender the Yin metal to the Wen sect in the novel, he just shows up with the rest of the Lan sect disciples in the novel.

This is the first time that we run into Wen Chao in the novel, and he’s flanked by Wang Lingjiao and Wen Zhuliu.

Overall thoughts：

First of all, Netflix’s subtitling needs work. I mean, I know it’s definitely not easy to do any kind of translation, so I don’t want to rag on anyone’s efforts either, but I was laughing at parts of the show. I didn’t have subtitles on when I first watched The Untamed, but I turned it on for the re-watch since it might be helpful to see how my understanding aligns with that of a non-Chinese viewer. It’s not bad, but also missing some flavor.

I first laughed at Netflix’s subtitle usage of ‘myrmidon’ when subbing Madam Yu - it’s a serious SAT word where servant would have sufficed. Madam Yu’s speech is actually pretty much identical to what was in the novel, but I wanted to point out her specific usage of the word ‘household servant/家仆’, and the subtext here that might be missed for people relying on the subs. In the novel, she calls out Jiang Yanli for peeling lotus seeds for Wei Wuxian and says, ‘You’re not a servant!’. In the context of the situation, she is specifically pointing out the difference between her and Wei Wuxian’s status - don’t serve someone who is supposed to serve you, remember your place is higher than his. Keep in mind that Wei Wuxian’s father was a servant of the Jiang sect who eloped with CSSR (whom Jiang Fengmian had fancied). Wei Wuxian’s high status within the Jiang sect is unusual and has always been seen as a symbol of favoritism and therefore a sore spot for Madam Yu. It would have been way more common for him to have a servant/companion relationship with Jiang Cheng (similar to how Jin Guangyao’s relationship was with Nie Huaisang in the drama) since he is after all completely unrelated by blood to the Jiang sect. Jiang Cheng and Wei Wuxian even discuss this in greater detail in Chapter 56 - funnily enough, Wei Wuxian doesn’t mind this term at all, most likely because he was raised more like the child of a sect leader vs. the child of a servant.

(Mini non-related rant: I sometimes see fan discussions that casually glosses over the importance of blood and familial ties in Chinese culture, and it makes me want to tear my hair out, especially considering that the whole ‘blood is thicker than water’ thing is basically a trope in so much of Chinese xianxia/wuxia literature. There’s a lot of “how could you abandon someone who is basically your brother” talk when discussing the relationship dynamics between Jiang Cheng and Wei Wuxian while blithely ignoring the fact that they are NOT and WILL NEVER BE brothers. Periodt. In fact, they are clearly both deeply cognizant (Jiang Cheng perhaps more so) of their non-familial ties and it is an issue that comes up again and again in their conversations or narrative dialogues. I just hate it when people handwave away their complicated relationship and pin it all on Jiang Cheng as being ‘unsibling-y’. /end rant)

One other thing I’m kind of picky about is the translation for the Yunmeng Jiang sect’s motto - to ‘attempt the impossible’, or ‘“明知不可而为之’. Strictly speaking, I don’t think it’s a great translation of the meaning of the phrase, which is likely derived from the Analects of Confucius (Xian Wen, 38), because it leaves out a big chunk of the meaning. 明知不可而为之 is to do what you SHOULD do, even if it seems impossible and, in the course of doing so, you may find that it wasn’t so impossible after all, but the possibility of success or failure should not preclude you from doing what needs to be done. Lu Xun, one of China’s most esteemed writers, wrote a piece that I think fits in well here - if you see a bunch of people soundly asleep in a room that has no easy way in or out, and you knew they would asphyxiate to death soon, would you wake them? Or let them pass away peacefully in their sleep? (Note: he wasn’t specifically using the example to illustrate this principle, it’s just a story I borrowed that fits in well here)

The argument under the 明知不可而为之 principle would be to wake them. Even though they’ll likely spend their last moments in terror and struggling for air and trying to escape, it is what you should do, even if the outcome is unlikely to be favorable.

Interestingly, it has been used in a much more negative context in the novel. In the novel, the line is often referenced in the light of ‘you knew this would cause trouble and disaster for everyone and yet you went ahead anyway’ - if I were to insert ‘attempt the impossible’ into those situations, it would be really odd.

Lastly, I do love the show’s portrayal of the Lotus Pier! It’s exactly like how the novel depicted it and honestly it still breaks my heart how it was sacked + the changes in the succeeding years as Jiang Cheng rebuilt Yunmeng. I don’t remember if the show goes into too much detail, but in the novel, it’s mentioned in Chapter 86 and 92 that there’s a lot less activity around the Lotus Pier now due to Jiang Cheng’s fearsome temperament. :(

Also straight up I’m gonna say Jiang Fengmian has the best fits in the entire series, how can you not get with that black and purple combo ughhhh

[spockandawe]

Okay, I want to pull together more detailed thoughts at some point, I think, because the sheer amount of material means I have about ten billion thoughts to sort out. But I’ve read all three of the mxtx novels now, and loved all of them, in different ways. Though I already tried to figure out if I can pick a Favorite, and tbh, I can’t. I love them all in ways that are too distinct to let me rank them easily. And... man, it’s lucky for my friends that social distancing is in place, or I’d be hassling them shamelessly to give these novels a try.

RIGHT. So.

The Scum Villain’s Self-Saving System: Shen Yuan goes to bed full of rage directed at a trashy webnovel with a grimdark blackened hero who conquered the world and collected hundreds of women into his harem.... and wakes up in novel, while that hero is still an innocent youth. As the hero’s abusive teacher. Who is doomed for a horrifying death unless he can somehow turn things around.

I think I had the most fun with this one. I really enjoy self-referential stories, and stories poking fun at certain genres, and I’ve run into the concept of transmigration before (the idea being a person enters a fictional world, a la lost in austen), though I’m blanking on any media like that I’ve actually consumed. This was chronologically the first book mxtx wrote, and it has less of a sprawling cast with complicated relationships than the other two books, but it definitely has the thing where she lays early groundwork for later revelations that shatter my poor heart. 

And there may be fewer relationships to play with, but my GOD, do I love the relationships we got. I’ve been rolling around in svsss fanfic since I finished the book, even more so than mdzs or tgcf. There’s a lot of good crunchy relationship content with the 79 ship (they destroy me, all day every day), Liu Qingge owns my whole-ass heart, and Luo Binghe makes for a fascinating love interest. I love that even at his best, he remains a needy, needy, manipulative boy, who’s so smart and strong and nEEDY. I don’t love how the book handled moshang, but mmmm the fan content is Good. And Shen Qingqiu does the unreliable narrator thing that is usually not my jam, but works so WELL in these books, in that his unreliable narration is hugely skewed towards not giving himself nearly as much credit as he deserves. Xie Lian takes this to UNBELIEVABLE heights in tgcf, but in Shen Qingqiu’s case, it’s done on such a casual, immediate, personal level that I’m fascinated by everything he does. 

And, since Shen Yuan/Shen Qingqiu is a millennial fan of trashy romance webnovels who gets yanked into the universe of a novel he hates, into an old-timey xianxia setting, the prose is SO COOL. You swing between modern slang and old school high society courtesies at the drop of a hat, and I’m honestly awed that the translators were able to catch so much of that. Like, in-setting, I love all the nuance you can get in ‘qi-ge should give his a-jiu the scroll’ vs ‘yue-shixiong should give this teacher the scroll’ vs ‘you should give me the scroll’. But then it adds a whole new layer when the person ALSO has modern-day casual speech bouncing around in their head. It makes for a fascinating, fascinating reading experience.

The Grandmaster Of Demonic Cultivation: Thirteen years ago, Wei Wuxian died. And then he wakes up! In someone else’s body. I’m not going to try to summarize the premise of this one, go look up The Untamed if you want someone to do a better job of this than me XD

Ahhh, this was the book I read first. I still haven’t watched the show (only clips) and I’m not sure I ever will, because adhd is a hell of a drug. But it’s hard to purely evaluate the prose when there’s also this gorgeous, beautifully-acted visual adaptation all over my tumblr to bias me in its favor. I think this book benefits a lot from the MYSTERY of it all. From the very start, there’s the question of ‘what the fuck is up with this goddamn arm’ that the characters pursue, even as that takes them through flashbacks and other arcs within the story. It gives a thrust to the novel that I think isn’t exactly there in tgcf, though I’m torn on which one is “better.” This gave the story momentum, yes, but it also meant I was much more impatient in yi city and the 3zun flashbacks, because this isn’t what I was focused onnnnnn this is cool but how much longer will we BE HERE--

That being said, I think I’ll be more patient with those flashbacks on my next time through the book, now that I have a better picture of where everything is headed. I think the balance and structure of the book worked really well, I was setting myself up for self-sabotage because of the pace I was plowing through the thing. My reading habits didn’t lend themselves well to the nonlinear storytelling, and it speaks to the story’s strength that it held up that well despite me. And the CAST. My GOD. I went in not caring about anyone but Wei Wuxian and Lan Wangji and maybe the jackass nephew, but... that Did Not Last. I didn’t intend to care about 3zun? Nope, too bad, you care so much now. Who cares about Xue Yang? Me. I care. Way too much. HECK!!!

And something that happens in this book and tgcf that was much less of a thing in svsss is that there are some meaningful holes in the story that I’d like to be filled, and I really care about filling-- and the story doesn’t go there. But it doesn’t leave me unhappy, it leaves me cheerfully scrabbling around in the throwaway details trying to piece together a picture of what happened when I wasn’t looking. What happened to Wei Wuxian in the burial mounds? How did Hua Cheng take control of the ghost city? Idk, but let us Rummage and theorize and roll around in ideas and have a fantastic, speculative time. Svsss might hook me more than the other stories from an au+shipping perspective, but mdzs and tgcf do a great job of making me want to roll around and create within the bounds of canon.

Heaven Official’s Blessing: 800 years ago, Xie Lian ascended to heaven. And fell. And rose again! And fell again. Now he’s ascended for the third time, and things are Awkward.

God, I just finished this, and I’m still reeling. This is the LONGEST mxtx book, that’s for sure. I also think it’s the most tightly edited translation. All the translators did an unbelievable job, I could never even approach what they accomplished, but I am genuinely stunned that a book this long was edited so well. I blew through this in about 3.5 days (if not for work, i could have made it in three dghsafdsgf) and my brain was cooking in my skull by the time I was halfway through, but I couldn’t STOP. I was ENCHANTED the entire time! I was reading so much my head was destroying me and I still sulked so HARD every time I had to put my phone down and sleep.

This book sprawls the hardest, I think, because it involves a cast made of mostly immortal/immortal-adjacent people, so time and space get... flexible. And I feel really bad saying this, because Lan Wangji is DEVOTED, but this is seriously the book with the most attentive and adoring and respectful love interest. Hua Cheng is..... god. I truly don’t think I’ve EVER read a character quite like him before, and I am so, so sad, because I don’t know how I’ll find one who lives up to these heights ever again XD I recommend reading this book just for the Hua Cheng experience, if nothing else. I was making audible noises at literally flailing at multiple points in the story, but most often, it was because of him. 

Shipping is what usually drags me into a fandom hardest, and all of these books do pretty well for themselves, all of them have a nice selection of fluffy and crunchy ships to choose from. And this one... goddammit. I just realized, that the best, most crunchy ships are too spoilery for me to be willing to talk about them here. Hell. Goddammit. But I think tgcf has the crunchiest ship of all, even better than xuexiao. I was so invested, and then there were Reveals, and then I was like OH NO THIS IS TERRIBLE BUT MY INVESTMENT HAS EXPONENTIALLY INCREASED. 

And something that I really, really appreciate, is that across the mxtx books, even though a lot of characters fit into strong archetypes, there’s nobody that is blurring together for me, either within or across the books. Liu Qingge isn’t Jiang Cheng isn’t Feng Xin. They’re all blunt, fighty boys, but all super distinct in my head, and what I want for each of them is distinct and character-driven. I want Liu Qingge to be properly cherished and I want Jiang Cheng to relax with his brother and nephew and I want Feng Xin to [goddammit i don’t want to spoil this book AGH]. It’s something I appreciated in the other books too, but I can really FEEL it in this book, with how long and luxurious it is. 

And last thing I have to say, I think, is that tgcf is so long. It’s so, so long. But I would FITE if anyone tried to pare it down at all. I can’t think of anything I’d be willing to sacrifice. I enjoyed every last piece of it so much, and it was all ultimately SO well-constructed and interlocking, that any piece I can think of snipping out would take away significant emotional impact from what was left. It’s a nonlinear story, like mdzs is nonlinear, and I loved mdzs a lot! But the construction here is so, so, so elegant. I’m just in AWE of how well it was assembled. I was in Agony as reveals happened, because oh no no no no, now that they’ve told me this, that casts this whole other scene in a brand new light! The one I read hundreds of thousands of words ago! Literally, I need to go start the book over so I can savor the shitty teens in new ways, given [redacted] as revealed in like, the last twenty percent of the book. The book was a fun experience, but there’s so Much here that I know I haven’t even absorbed yet. I loved the other mxtx books a lot, and in many ways, they were easier to get a grasp on than tgcf was, but even before I finished tgcf I was already despairingly trying to figure out how easily I could fit a full reread into my life, and I think that says a lot