#and thinking about how he sees himself vs lestat here.

[platoapproved]

Never say 'I love you' to a raging narcissist.

[cbrownjc]

Hi there! I'm sorry if this feels super obtuse and it has been ages since I read the novels, BUT...

After this recent episode I was a little confused about what Armand had done to infuriate Louis and Daniel so much. If he simply wiped their memories so neither Louis or Daniel didn't remember everything that went down, that doesn't seem so awful, especially since what went down WAS awful. So I think I must have missed something substantial because I was distracted by my cat, or something. 😅

BTW I love your blog and all the fantastic insight you provide! I used to be ride or die with IWTV but haven't paid much attention to it in the last 15-20 years, so I'm finding it immensely helpful for getting back into the swing of things!

Hello!

So why Louis and Daniel are so angry at Armand isn't because Armand simply erased their memories. (And, to be clear, their memories weren't actually erased, but just clouded over and blocked). Armand rewrote them. Armand basically reprogrammed Daniel and Louis' minds after the OG interview, Louis' mind especially.

That was what that final scene was about, what it was demonstrating. The answer that Louis gave at the beginning of the episode, as to why Armand saved Daniel's life in 1973 was a word-for-word repeat of what Armand's own answer was at the end of the episode to that same question.

The answer wasn't something Louis truly felt wrt his own real feelings. It was something Armand put into Louis' mind to think and say about the incident after the events of it from Louis attacking Daniel on were blocked and clouded over.

As @virginiaisforvampires notes here, the way Louis speaks of Lestat in the OG interview vs the new interview is very telling wrt that reprogramming done. Yes, in the OG interview, Louis was talking down Lestat in spiteful ways, but it was all surface-level stuff. Just saying that the way Lestat spoke revealed how stupid he was and that he wasn't at all skilled when trying to play music.

That is all a far cry from the things Louis has said and spoken about in the Dubai interview about Lestat. Lestat's crimes, as they are being talked about in this second interview, are not just surface-level transgressions said to simply make Lestat angry and draw him out, as Louis was originally trying to do back in 1973. The crimes of Lestat laid out in the Dubai interview, in contrast, are very much there to justify the murder of Lestat.

Because without that justification?

Well, we see that starting when it comes to the false memory -- yes, false -- of Louis thinking Claudia couldn't burn Lestat. Louis thinking that -- that Claudia couldn't burn Lestat -- would take away Louis' guilt at having stopped Claudia from trying to burn Lestat if it was something they both couldn't do. Especially if the killing of Lestat had been justified.

But if there was no justification for killing Lestat? Then the reason Louis stopped Claudia from burning Lestat was because Louis knew that killing Lestat had been wrong. Louis knew it the night Claudia did it, which would be the real reason why he stopped her from burning him.

And because Lestat didn't burn, because he was still alive, that led to the events of the trial in Paris and what happened to Claudia there. And what is looking to be the show's version of the Merrick reveal about Claudia's true feelings wrt Louis. Which, in the book Merrick, the revelation of that is what sent Louis to try to destroy himself via sunlight exposure, as we saw him try to do back in 1973 -- which the cocaine and other drugs that were in Daniel's blood had Louis unable to either ignore anymore -- or lifted a veil that had been placed over his mind about it until then.

Do you see the cascade effect in all of this?

And look, maybe some will see what Armand has done here as not that awful, but Armand didn't do it just to try and protect Louis. That was very damn clear when he didn't relay Lestat's full "I love you" message to Louis after Louis' 1973 attempt to end his life. It's because part of Armand very much still wants to live with the illusion that he and Louis can be happy together, even after what happened in Paris and Armand's role in those events.

I've said before that Armand's flaw when it comes to love is that he will go way, way, WAY overboard to obtain or keep love. And this is all just, once again, him repeating that pattern. Armand rewrote Louis' memories of both Lestat and Claudia's actions all to try and assuage the true guilt and pain Louis has over everything that happened and Louis' own role (mostly due to his own inactions) in it all that has led to such suicidal guilt about it, but also because IMO Armand wishes to hide -- as much as he can -- his own role in everything that happened as well . . . and all of this so as to keep Louis by his side so that Louis doesn't leave him -- be it for Lestat, or even in death.

Armand isn't being altruistic in his reprogramming of Louis' mind and memories. Because really being so would have been not only telling Louis what Lestat was trying to relay to Louis back in 1973 but then probably having to let Louis go as well . . . let Louis go back to and be with Lestat, the person who Louis was trying to draw the attention of with that whole OG interview in the first place.

Honestly, I see the whole situation as kind of expanding on this line of Louis' in the book, as he and Armand are breaking up:

And when I came to Paris I thought you were powerful and beautiful and without regret, and I wanted that desperately. But you were a destroyer just as I was a destroyer, more ruthless and cunning even than I. You showed me the only thing that I could really hope to become, what depth of evil, what degree of coldness I would have to attain to end my pain. And I accepted that. And so that passion, that love you saw in me, was extinguished. And you see now simply a mirror of yourself.

With the rewriting/reprogramming of Louis' memories, this is very much what Armand has created with Louis in many ways -- a mirror of himself. The pieces of himself that Armand blocked and changed had Louis "knowing who he was" . . . but who that person is, isn't the real Louis. Just a reflection of the person who made those changes.

So yeah, that is where the anger is coming from. Moreso Louis than Daniel when it comes to the rewriting aspect of it all I'd say; Daniel is likely just angry that his mind was messed with in the first place. One thing you can say about Daniel is that he's brutally honest, even when it comes to his own foibles. He's the type who'd rather know all the horrible shit that happened to him, than not.

Anyway, I'm glad you like my blog and comments about the show, and I hope this answer explains some of it for you. 🙂

[heliza24]

Armand and Unbreakable Cycles, again

I actually do think that Armand’s decision to let Louis die as part of the trial is perfectly in character for him.

In episode 3, Armand tries to present himself as someone who falls in love with outsiders, someone who will devotedly follow his savior lovers out of the status quo of his old broken life into something better. (I wrote in depth about that here). But remember, this is Armand’s retelling of his story, and he has an objective here— convince Daniel that he loved Louis blindly, and defied the coven in order to be with him. So when he tells Daniel that he allowed Lestat to break up the Children of Darkness, because the changes Lestat brought in were things Armand had begun to believe himself, how true was that? Obviously we’ll see Lestat’s rendition next season, and I suspect Lestat will be destroying in the coven in a way that’s totally beyond Armand’s ability to permit anything.

So when it comes down to Louis vs the coven, maybe Armand is just making the same choice again. Choosing the status quo despite the little piece of his heart that longs for freedom and a reciprocated love. If anything he’s more primed to choose the coven this time, because Lestat never reciprocated his love, and part of Louis still belongs to Lestat, so Armand believes that Louis will never fully reciprocate his love either (and I think he’s correct!).

The scene in Magnus’s old lair is about this, I think. Although this isn’t fully spelled out in the text, I suspect that Armand’s decision to kill Louis along with Claudia was motivated by Lestat. To get revenge on him, and also to leave Louis before he could leave Armand like Lestat did. Armand has never known how to love Louis outside of Lestat- even in Dubai, he’s comparing how long he and Louis have been together to Louis and Lestat. And Louis has never picked Armand without Lestat being figuratively or literally in the room. In that scene in Magnus’s tower, he explicitly picks Armand to get revenge on Lestat. So they are a kind of match made in hell, with the ghost of Lestat constantly stuck in between them.

I think the decision to make Lestat save Louis is a good one from a dramatic writing perspective. It gives Lestat a moment of agency in the trial he would not have otherwise. And it also makes Armand’s decision, to fully acquiesce to the coven, to sacrifice Louis and Claudia, much more concrete. It gives both of them a strong character choice, and it allows Louis to embrace his agency later on, when he learns the truth. It facilitates Louis’s catharsis and forgiveness of Lestat, and completes Louis’s arc. Hes the protagonist, and the show had to nail his emotional arc, and it did. So I think it was wise writing for this season, even if we see more shades and subtleties in it further down the road. It’s also a good writing decision just in terms of planting and payoff. Daniel was able to clock the possibility that Lestat saved Louis because of the hugely impactful scene we all saw in season 1, of Lestat sending the soldiers out of the house. Even the fact that this was possible for Lestat, but likely would have taken all of his strength, is teed up by that season 1 scene. (We can debate about how culpable Lestat is for choosing Louis over Claudia, or not at least attempting to save them both, but it gives them a possible way to explain this decision in future seasons). Daniel asked the Talamasca for evidence to help him prove his point to Louis, but he was able to put the clues together himself. If there had been some other reveal, that involved mind control or Armand imprisoning Lestat, Daniel wouldn’t have been able to crack the case himself. So in that way the writing also respected Daniel’s agency as well.

The irony of Armand telling Daniel that he “allowed” Lestat to break up his first coven, is that Daniel is here to break up Armand’s status quo, his coven of one with Louis. Daniel knows this by the finale, knows that he’s picking apart cycles of passivity and hypocrisy in Armand: “where does the bullshit start, Armand, Amadeo, Arun?” And Armand fights Daniel trying to prevent this destruction to the bitter end. His invitation to Daniel to join them for dinner was ominous as hell. I do not think there was any way that Armand was going to let Daniel publish information about the trial, even the edited version that Armand was able to feed Louis and Daniel. I would not be surprised if he had convinced Louis to allow him to kill Daniel, much in the same way he was once prepared to kill Louis in the trial. Daniel’s quick thinking and Louis’s rage is the only thing that saves Daniel. And when Louis storms out of the library, there’s a pause where Armand holds Daniel’s gaze before going after Louis. There are a lot of ways you could read that gaze, but I think it’s clear in that moment that he’s debating who to prioritize. For what exactly is unclear. Maybe Armand is just be deciding whether it’s more important for him to kill Daniel or go to Louis in that moment. Maybe there was more to Armand’s relationship with Daniel in the 70s, and Armand is seeing himself once again choosing between two flames that represent the past and future to him. But regardless of the thought process he chooses Louis. He chooses the old ways, the old coven. He really is consistent.

Now how the show chooses to deal with Armand and Daniel alone in the apartment… with Daniel having just blown up Armand’s life, and having clocked the exact degree of his cowardice and bullshit in a way that no one else ever has, in a way that ends with Armand abandoning Daniel AFTER turning him Will be fascinating indeed. Because this seems to be an extension of Armand only knowing how to love, or be loved, through a filter of revenge and spite, of only being able to connect through a third party he’s missing. With him and Louis it was Lestat, with him and Daniel it’s Louis, or at least that’s what the cliffhanger is leaving us with. I suspect there are a few things about his and Daniel’s connection that are going to play out differently, and that might push Armand towards character growth for the first time in his very long life. I can’t wait to see them in season 3!

[cloudabserk]

How's show Armand not racist though he did specifically write the trial to lynch them and added racial aggressions against Louis too

uhhh look. i don’t wanna definitively say armand isn’t or is racist both because i’m white, and because there’s so so much nuance there. how does armand view himself, or the non white members of the coven, or louis and claudia? after his history of being trafficked and sent to various majority white european countries, and ordered to rule as the master of the coven?

what does he think about louis & claudia’s history with slavery: being descended from american slaves, and louis having inherited his money from a slave plantation, claudia’s resentment of lestat as their white “master”. vs his own history: enslavement being the first thing he can remember, his being so conflicted over belonging to marius, wanting to belong to lestat (and being passed over for louis and claudia, who resent and kill lestat!) is he jealous? resentful? sympathetic? uncaring?

let alone the question of: did armand write the trial? we don’t actually know that. we know he directed it, but a huge amount of the behind the scenes details are ambiguous for now. (i assume by “racial aggressions” you mean the idea of louis being predatory towards lestat? i do think this could have come from armand, but we don’t actually know that. it could be a “see lestat didn’t really want him over me, it was all louis’s idea” manifestation of jealousy, which does rely on the audiences racist belief that a black man is more sexual & predatory… but the version of louis that armand sees, and likes, is dominant in bed & ran brothels as a human, whereas armand grew up abused in brothels. or is he aware of louis’s shame at both being gay and a vampire, and he’s pressing on that to hurt him? idk. as of now, it could’ve been armand or the coven imo)

my personal interpretation is that armand is actually… less racist than most of the characters? daniel has his modern day american biases, and lestat’s first words to louis were basically “how’d they let you in here?” which. christ lestat wtf. whereas armand has always felt like an outsider and an otherworldly being. by the time he meets louis, i don’t think he believes almost anyone is his equal.

anyway. i don’t think killing claudia and louis inherently means that armand is racist, and because his exact level of involvement in the trial is so ambiguous i would hesitate to draw firm conclusions about his character from specific lines just yet. and i would keep in mind that slavery is a big part of armand’s backstory and references to it aren’t always targeted at louis.

overall what i meant was i just think some people on twitter are being silly for saying armand is too evil to ship with lestat and louis specifically because armand might be racist. they are all evil. also he let their daughter die on purpose.

[murfpersonalblog]

IWTV S2 Ep7 Musings - Loustat Ep5 Revisited (Spoilers)

I decided to do this one first, cuz I have the least to say about it.

It was pretty clear cut and showed exactly what I expected/hoped it would: CONFIRMATION ON EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENED IN S1--

THE FIGHT WASN'T RETCONNED AT ALL. 😤👏

Diabolical frame, cuz it's pretty much like, Welp, you're here in Europe, after I distinctly told y'all the European vampires were vicious and not to come here! VOILA! 😬

And I love how his back is to the audience, cuz this bit REALLY isn't about the performance--this is Lestat venting, talking right to Louis, even though he's clearly having difficulty meeting his gaze.

Mild way to put it, but wtvr.

There's that word again: "compromise," which Lestat blamed Louis for leading to "spite--" both Claudia's, AND Lestat's own spite towards THEM. Cuz Lestat was constantly holding back; "fought my nature, controlled my temper."

TOO EFFING BAD, you woke the sleeping effing DRAGON!

Backflip into the coffinroom, omg, I accidentally cackled. 😅

Amen! Lestat put his hands on Claudia first, now you gotta PAY!

"It will end in your death"--excuse me, Lestat?! DEATH THREATS!?

That's right, bash his head into the effing coffin! Now we know what the dent was from! Look at that blood stream! Yeah, you BETTER hold back, Lestat; take this arse whoopin!

I like how S1 focused on the blows Lestat dealt to Louis, as it was from his & Claudia's perspective; but now we're seeing more of the blows Louis dealt to Lestat as he gives his perspective. But it still shows that although Louis' fighting, he's still on the defense, cuz Lestat is often just LETTING Louis hit him--LOUIS can't AFFORD to just LET Lestat hit him, cuz "mighty...most ancient blood...godlike strength" Les will REALLY injure him whenever he does! This is NOT an even fight, even if the perspectives are now more evenly shown.

Exactly! You wanna KILL Louis!? But Lou, don't get cocky now; Les is LETTING you do all this to him, cuz he knows if he gets serious that's your behind. 😬

Bites all over Lou's jaw & neck, gosh--look at YOUR face, Louis. U_U

(I can't WAIT to read the fanfics that come out of this; they're gonna make me cry.) No, unfortunately. I don't think Louis had any intention of going anywhere, even after all that (LOUIS GOT THE DEED, that's HIS house--YOU leave!). And congratulations; thanks to you, Les, Lou wasn't even able to WALK for three effing years afterwards.

Claudia calling for her Daddy Lou, I can't. 😭 This poor baby girl has regressed to her inner child--she's so dang scared.

JUST LIKE YOU DID OUR DAUGHTER--PAPA BEAR LOUIS STOOD UP! 😤👏

I've been in this exact situation IRL, and y'all want me to feel sorry FOR LESTAT!? AFTER HE CHOKED "built-like-a-bird" Claudia and beat the mess out of her Daddy Lou right in front of her!?

Chile, the sword-cane's right there; let's get to choppin! 😤🔪🔪🔪

Apropos for Lioncourt, but that's way too good for him--take him to the EFFING SWAMP and let the GATORS feed on him! I want SWAMP KING LESTAT. 😭🐊

I'm gonna LAAAAAAAUGH, oh he's cracked and I love it! You KNOW they talked to a woman who's been in this EXACT situation.

Oh, this is every woman who talks big to her abusive husband right b4 he lands her in the effing hospital (or the morgue); we all saw the Ray Rice footage when he knocked her TF out WITH EASE when she got up in his face talking smack in that elevator. 💀

Your FATHERS temper, but this is the coven writing his lines "teased until you toppled;" they don't know about the Marquis vs Gabrielle.

THE DROP REALLY HAPPENED, THANK YOU, AMC.

It wasn't cuz Lestat was tryna spare Louis or save him from himself or protect him or whatever--LES WANTED TO BREAK LOU.

It could've been 2 effing FEET. "A hard fall, nothing more;" eff you Santiago!

Yeah, gaslight us some more whydontcha; half the fandom LOVES using that reasoning to handwave aside "abuse" when it's done to the character they DON'T like. 🙄😒 Then it's just awful takes about how Louis & Claudia deserved what happened to them and it's "karma" and it's not Les' fault cuz they're monsters & Lou bloodied Les' face.

And biting w/out consent is RAPE, clown! AR said it over & over that it's a violation of the most intimate act b/t vamps who share emotions, memories & sexual pleasure thru the blood! But watch some braindead takes use Santiago's words as gospel just to Gotcha! anyone who says anything against Louis for Ep5. 🙄😒

CRICKETS. Cuz LESTAT TRIED TO KILL LOU, just like Claudia said! "A wolf congratulated for not killing her pups"--that was scripted. But "you can't script a hurricane!" NO! That's right; set the story straight!

Look at him crying, I love how they do the blood tears effect, as their eyes get redder & redder. The sound of Sam's voice as he's crying is just making me wanna yeet myself into the sun--but it's the middle of the night, alas. U_U "I couldn't force him to love me so I broke him. What is worse than that? Crushing what you cannot own." But I thought Louis was saying "Come to me" and luring you with his wicked vixen ways~! The math ain't mathin, Santiago! 🤭

FINALLY AN APOLOGY OMFG

Claudia said it best: "Let's meet vampires WORTHY of your love!" Unworthy in NOLA, unworthy in Paris--cuz he's STILL gonna throw CLAUDIA under the bus to save Louis, and she KNOWS this.

WAY too effing late--Les had his chance to apologize sincerely the night he dropped Louis 20000 leagues from the frikkin stratosphere! Claudia DGAF, LOL. And Louis looks away from Lestat; bye Felicia!

CONTINUE.

Chile, I need SLEEP! I been up all dang day rewatching this episode & screaming at the ether!

[nalyra-dreaming]

Hello :-) I was just wondering if you have overall thoughts now on how you feel about The Drop in series one now we’ve seen all of Louis’ perspective on what happened?

I’ve been mulling it over (and trying to separate it from the fact I find the discourse in fandom about it (Lestat) annoying). I can see why the show runners wanted to do it; it makes the relationship’s toxicity much more clear and Lestat was abusive in the books, just not as clearly as 1x05 lays it out. So I can see why they wanted to give Louis (and especially Claudia) that much more motivation. I did also find Sam’s reasoning - that it’s important to show Lestat’s underlying toxic masculinity more clearly - compelling too. But I also just don’t like that they did that to Lestat. I do think it’s something that changes who he is and what he’s capable of. But maybe I’m just too much a Lestat girl and it is better for the story and it’s actually just laying out some difficult truths about him in a way that’s not comfortable. Obviously he’s a monster, even if in the books he’s a monster that generally tries his best to help and care for those he loves. Where do you land on it?

(I totally understand if you don’t want to open this can of worms, but I’d be interested in the discussion or you pointing me in the direction of your previous thoughts if that’s easier)

Hey!

All good. I have talked about this a few times, so I'll try to... condense where I am at this moment :)

So, re that "toxic masculinity" and the arc they're aiming for... I think it's important to remember here that Akasha does aim for Lestat as her tool because she does see "everything wrong with the males" in him. So that arc makes a lot of sense for them to set up.

Ultimately this is what she misjudges Lestat on though, and why she, why her quest fails - he actually isn't, and he turns against her because he isn't.

I said it before, the abuse is in the (first) book - but not at this level. And not with the added layer of domestic violence, and I think that level will come back to bite the show in the ass again and again (and the fandom is a mess because of it), because what the show showed - and what they let stand for almost two years - is something decidedly different than "two vampires fighting". Which we're supposed to take away from it now. And which is "only" the inside part of that... fight.

The outside has been hinted at in the video with Sam you're referencing now as well, totally apart from the missing blood everywhere which makes the scene unlikely to have happened as shown, there was also the hint re... something else, that Sam caught himself on. I have theorized early on that the outside might be connected to Amel, and I do think that might hold true. Which is no excuse, btw, since Amel uses certain skills and tendencies. We'll see.

So now the drop.

I am not sure if we have seen all, tbh. There were comments about something about the "blood of Akasha" that was cut from that scene, for example. It would certainly makes sense with the tower scene. Also Lestat being so frustrated with Louis and whatever discussion they had up there to drop him? Still doesn't make sense to me, but I guess that's more or less confirmed now. Still reeks like the tower drop parallel to me (that we might get in s3, who knows).

I think there is something quite powerful they could do with the drop vs certain upcoming book canon "flying scenes". I know some fans said that they destroyed that scene with 1x05, but I actually disagree. The level of trust needed would actually only enhance where they are with each other then, but we'll see.

So. After the comments re "toxic masculinity" etc (mostly by Sam) it made click for me.

I think I know why they're doing this, I think I know how they'll spin it. But I don't particularly like it.

Still, it will likely work. In the end.

After a lot of (fandom) pains.

[ca-suffit]

Is Lestat colorblind? I know that being colorblind is a myth and impossible in this society, but in this fiction can we say that vampirism transcends identities, whether it's gender, sexual or racial identies ? And Lestat only sees the world in two categories Mortals vs Immortals?

the fandom wants ppl to believe this, and so did anne rice, but no lol. he v much tf is *not.*

idk which version ur asking about so I'm gonna include something from the books, movie, and show.

like. on a level, yes, it could be argued that lestat sees things differently bcuz some part of him does. vampirism was forced onto him and gives him identity issues of his own, so a lot of his character is refusing to give in to his or anyone's negative thoughts about it all. he doesn't like to think about anything too long bcuz it might touch into feelings about a trauma, but this is why he ends up hurting a lot of ppl around him all the time. in the books, he's uncomfortable most of the time when his mother isn't presenting v feminine, despite his awareness of her dislike of it. so she dresses that way for him sometimes. in the show, we see how much lestat's refusal to acknowledge race beyond a fetish-y level of it (when it's not something working in his favor anyway, when he's asked to consider black perspectives on it instead) hurts louis and claudia, and he's aware of it too bcuz he's been told about it.

anne rice always talked about her vampires transcending all kinds of things, but the books are still full of racism, misogyny, classism, homophobia....prbly anything u could think of. I don't think she knew this but it's p obvious to everyone else. her vampires were not transcending anything lol. it's not written in a way that's meant to serve any real critical purpose either, it's just there bcuz it's a reflection of how she viewed the world herself (this is not an assumption, read her interviews and compare the texts).

anyway, lestat prbly doesn't have conscious awareness of any of this himself either but the way he talks across his adaptations shows he has awareness beyond "mortal and immortal." he is never speaking about ppl in only these terms most of the time. he gets rly specific and his actions are rly specific in response to that too. he is navigating the world as a white, european man first most of the time, not just "vampire."

examples under the cut

from memnoch the devil

from prince lestat and the realms of atlantis

1 regarding the alien race they encounter

2 lestat's fantasies about one of the women from this group

amc iwtv

I can't post everything bcuz I'd hit the image limit so here's just a few from the first episode. his affair with a white woman in public at louis' business, his inviting only white soldiers back to the house when he's upset about jonah, his violence towards louis and bringing claudia back from the train are all other examples (and there's still a lot more!) of awareness of race and making decisions based on that, whether it's conscious or not.

1

2

3 lestat thinking racism is an american problem

(loosely related but throwing it in bcuz a lot of ppl miss this)

iwtv 1994

most ppl he's seen eating are women of color

[monstersinthecosmos]

As a fellow Marius lover, I always find it kind of disheartening how most of the content/fandom talk about him (meta, fic, fanart, etc.) revolves around m/m ships (Marius/Armand in particular but I’d even go as far to include Marius/Daniel here) when, in my opinion, Marius is like the one male character in the VC universe whose relationships with women are far more interesting than his relationships with other men (the only other character might be Lestat but even then it’s pretty 50/50). They’re so monumental and so full of complexities and pain and so much love and they define him and inform his character in ways that I think, his relationships with men simply do not. Interesting/hot under the right circumstances? Sure but like ARE YOU GUYS SEEING THIS MAN??? AND HOW HE RELATES TO WOMEN??? It’s one of the best things Anne ever wrote and I can never get enough of it and it makes me sad how little content there is of it and I feel I can never say this out loud because I would never want to make people feel bad about what they ship (truly not my intention here) but ugh SO MUCH potential there for life changing discourse and meta about Marius and the women he’s loved and lost and have shaped who he is and there’s like… nothing.

Tl;dr the reason I’m sending this ask is because I’m a firm believer that you must be the change you want to see in this world and because YOU get it! And every time you post or write about Marius/Pandora (or Marius/Akasha! Or talk about Marius/Bianca) an angel gets its (black) wings. You are seen, you are loved and appreciated tysm <3

OKAY FIRST OF ALL THIS WAS SUCH A DELIGHT TO GET IN MY INBOX, SECOND IM GOING TO BE COMPLETELY HONEST AND ADMIT I FEEL TOO INCOHERENT TO TACKLE THIS TOPIC HAHA. I don’t feel articulate enough to do it justice. And I don’t say that to be obnoxious and self deprecating but like in all honesty idk how to synthesize it neatly but I think you’re sharing some GREAT IDEAS. 

I have to say this in bullet points because I don’t feel equipped to string this into a cohesive post:

Marius was based on Anne’s husband, and Marius/Pandora was based on their marriage!!!!! And I think it explains a lot about why their relationship feels so fuckin POTENT to me, like it’s so genuine!!!!!!! And like knowing that I think it makes sense why she wrote him so HOT lol. Like she’s just writing thirsty stuff about her husband right? LOL

Also like insofar as there’s a lot of genderfluidity in VC there’s also something vaguely misogynist about it at times. And Anne Rice was a mega feminist and her work had so much womens lib in it!!!!! So I don’t think it’s intended as misogyny at all vs. Anne having conversations about gender and maybe her own relationship to gender. I think enough characters have said vaguely misogynist stuff that it makes me think it’s an Anne Problem vs being Watsonian. (This is also a historical/time period issue and we can discuss another time if and when vampires are supposed to break out of that when they transcend humanity and social constructs even when they’re still saying weird sexist shit at their big ages.) But I say that to say all VC characters are a tad sexist, even if perhaps she was writing with the intention of her own male power fantasy/male superiority/penis envy. AND THAT MAKES MARIUS VERY INTERESTING. 

Cause like really the three main ladies in his life (Akasha, Pandora, Bianca) DO define him so much! And we don’t see him pine for Armand the way he did for any of them! Why!!!

Like there’s that aspect of sexism where women can be infantilized by men who don’t think they’re being unkind and it makes me wonder, especially when the author is a boomer, like where is that line between condescension and respect? I don’t have an answer here, this is too big-brained for me LOL but like he is SO devoted to the women in his life and I just wonder like if he sees them as creatures unlike himself, you know? 

This is headcanon territory but I bet he’s such a fucking sub to Pandora lol and it just thrills me that he spent 2000 years begging Akasha for affection and she ignored him the whole damn time wow. And he continued to simp!

AND ALSO LIKE, I think people DO NOT DISCUSS THIS OFTEN ENOUGH, but did we forget that he chose Armand because he needed a Bianca rebound? He was absolutely TORTURED by his love for Bianca and picked Armand because he didn’t want to kill her oh my god. Oh my god!!! HE KEPT HER LETTER IN HIS POCKET OVER HIS HEART OKAY??? HE DIDN’T WANT TO DRAG HER INTO HIS COLD AND FATAL DOMAIN????? Fuck lol

It’s so fucked up that he didn’t go after Armand but spent like actual fucking millennia trying to find Pandora. HE KNEW EXACTLY WHERE ARMAND WAS AND LEFT HIM THERE LOL BUT PANDORA HAUNTED HIM EVERY NIGHT OF HIS LIFE FOR CENTURIES.

After everything he wound up spending like 200 years with Bianca or something and ?????? CORRECT because Bianca was the fledgling he actually wanted!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But it’s odd, I know I’ve said this 337589235 times, but Marius like. Has an idea of the person he wants to be and he tries SO HARD to live by logic & reason and he just can’t reconcile with the fact that he has EMOTIONS. And so like part of the person he wants to be like, open/empathetic/wise and he begs his lovers/students/fledglings to CHALLENGE HIM when he’s not actually healed enough to be challenged? And to me there’s something kinda like, extra spicy about it when you’re in Rice World and you’re a lil sexist; how much that burns EXTRA when it’s Pandora or Bianca sticking up to you or AKASHA FUCKIN IGNORING YOU. 

Just really incredible that this person who is like the epitome of a patriarch has such fucked up relationships with all the women in his life. And like he underestimates these women, like the way he tries to manipulate Bianca and she leaves him! PANDORA AND AKASHA ARE UNAVAILABLE TO HIM AND BIANCA FUCKIN LEAVES.

akasSHA JUST IGNROING HIM!! JUST STRAIGHT UP FUCKIN IGNORING HIM FOR 2,000 YEARS!!!! HE'S OBSESSED WITH HER!

Anyway Enkil is ignoring him too but he doesn’t give a shit about that guy tbh lol 

Also the amount of space he gives Eudoxia and Zenobia in his book like there’s more here too but tbh it’s midnight and I can’t start unpacking. I just think like, in 2000 years it’s interesting how Eudoxia wound up having such a lasting impact on his life. 

I did just peek at the Eudoxia part and I’m dying, he goes “Her face was small, oval, and as close to perfection as anything I've ever beheld, even though she bore no resemblance to Pandora who was for me perfection itself.” CERTIFIED WIFE GUY.

What kinda mommy issues are we dealing with here? HIS MOTHER WAS A SLAVE THAT DIED IN CHILDBIRTH AND HE INHERITED HER GENES AND LOOKED LIKE HER AND DIDN’T LOOK LIKE HIS FATHER & BROTHERS? AND HE’S SORT OF AN OUTCAST AS A HUMAN LIKE ? THE STIGMA HERE? AND THEN HE SPENDS 2000 YEARS WORSHIPPING HIS NEW MOTHER??? PERHAPS YOU COULD SAY ENSLAVED TO HER? IDK MAN. 

IS THIS ALSO WHY HE WAS SO OBSESSED WITH LOSING PANDORA?

The irony too, and something I think a lot of people miss, is that he DIDN’T WANT TO MARRY PANDORA LOL. He wanted to be betrothed to a child so that he could FUCK OFF and NOT get married because she wasn’t old enough to get married! He fucked off! He went exploring! He said this is not for me! 

AND TO GO OUT INTO THE WORLD AND BE MURDERED BY HIS MOTHERS PEOPLE???? IDK. 

I’m not sure how these last two points tie into anything but I just wanted to mention his complicated relationship with Pandora and his own heritage lol. And then Akasha like DELIVERS Pandora to him because she’s like “wow this guy needs somebody lol and I am not emotionally available” — Akasha who was famously a violent genocidal radfem and who would not approve of his relationship with Armand but explicitly allowed him to have Pandora and Bianca. IDK WHAT DOES IT ALL MEAN! 

Did Akasha approve of these women because she knew Marius was completely pussywhipped and would worship them and she wanted to see someone mommydom the fuck out of him and she knew that Armand would never be that person? 🫢

And again I want to say like, taking the author into consideration!! Anne Rice had a HORRIFIC relationship with her mom so you see these themes pop up occasionally in her work. DESPITE ALL OF THAT SHE IS STILL A FEMINIST AND WRITES ABOUT MATRILINEAR FAMILIES like The Great Family or the Mayfairs. But thinking about Mothers in Anne Rice Works makes me think a lot about this like, the damage they can do and the voids they can leave even when you’re a feminist and love women! You see a TON of this with Gabrielle and I always think that Lestat & Marius are such similar characters that you can do a lot of extrapolating or backwards engineering to ask questions about them and how they work, since we get SO MUCH Lestat POV in this series to work with and how we can zoom out sometimes and ask like, what is common across her entire body of work and what is more specifically common between Lestat & Marius and WHAT EVEN MORE INTERESTINGLY is a result that they were both based on her husband in their inceptions. 

Like how much of this has to do with Marius’s actual feelings towards men vs women on purpose, or how much was subconscious author bias, how much was simply that Anne Rice based him on her husband and she was THIRSTY, idk. It’s always hard to say in VC because Anne was such an intuitive and self-indulgent author and the stories are so weird!!! So your mileage may vary!

But I agree with you that these are FASCINATING relationships!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And I like Marius/Armand too (I recently made a post about how I didn’t “””””ship”””” them but then I spent 2 months working on a M/A fic every day and now I think I’ve corrupted and converted myself LMAO) but yeah like. There’s such a lack of substance between them in the end. He treats Armand like he’s temporary, fucks up and moves on, and it’s such a departure from how DEVOTED he was with all his other partners. 

Wow I didn’t think I had a lot to say, sorry about that. !!! EVERY TIME I BROUGHT A POINT UP I THOUGHT OF 5 MORE POINTS GOSH I COULD TALK ABOUT MARIUS ALL DAY.

[pynkhues]

https://www.tumblr.com/pynkhues/758752007276380160/they-put-sam-in-that-half-up-and-the-little?source=share

god, armand is just playing the most demented game of barbies, isn't he, with lestat as his little doll to play dress-up with.

I'm so so curious about the backstory of the trial (and the tower scene after the trial) too. It definitely seems like Lestat couldn't just leave the theater or move around when he felt like it -- he couldn't just go see Louis or talk to Claudia and warn them, he had to save Louis at the trial. So yeah, where was he being kept, how long was he there, how did they get him there (ppl have pointed out that emphasis is placed on Santiago's ability as a mimic, specifically with Louis' voice -- did he make Lestat think Louis was calling him?). And of course, I'm still curious how much, if any, of Armand's story was true -- did the coven rebel against him and present the trial to him as something he had to direct if he wanted to stay? It's interesting how much Santiago seems to be looking to Armand as the leader (Ben Daniel is HILARIOUS here, as horrifying as the context is) in the rehearsal scene...so was Armand involved in more of the planning than we've seen, not just the directing?? So many mysteries.

Uh but to return to the point, I can absolutely see Armand happily dressing Lestat in waist-hugging vests and playing with his hair

(x)

Yeah, I'm really curious too. Hope you don't mind book spoilers, but in them, Lestat's actually come to Paris to try and convince Armand to heal him as he's still recovering from Louis and Claudia's murder attempt, so he's already in a weakened state when he arrives. Armand not only doesn't heal him, but decides to make him worse by pushing him out a window (Lestat's too weak to fly) and then starving and torturing him while he keeps him captive before the trial. Given Lestat had bruises on his wrists in 2.07, I'm kind of inclined to think that's probably the general direction the show's going to go in still?

We have a bit of insight too from the extra who was on set for the trial who said that through Emma's directing of Roxane and Sam said that the reason Madeleine's mind is being distorted is that Lestat's trying to communicate with her via the mind link because she's the only way he can communicate with Claudia who can communicate with Louis, which makes total sense. In other words, Santiago's controlling Madeleine to make sure Lestat can't get through to her, Armand's controlling Lestat to try and keep him on script, and the rest of the coven is there to just disorient Claudia and Louis enough to keep them from getting their bearings.

And I tend to think Santiago / the Coven was definitely looking to Armand again as Maitre too, anon! My theory about that is that the Coven was planning on overthrowing Armand and that they did give him the ultimatum, only when that happened, Armand probably revealed he had Lestat as a show of power to get the Coven back under his control and reinstate himself as Director/Maitre. How long he'd had him for? I think in the books its a week, from memory, but Louis and Claudia are also only in Paris for a few months vs the years they are in the show, so it's anyone's guess at this stage how long Armand might have had Lestat if that is what the show's going to do.

But yes, haha, Armand does have Lestat dolled up for the trial in the books, and I think that's a fun enough detail for this unhinged show that they'll probably keep it in.

[transparentmentalityexpert]

SPOILERS

Finally watched AMC's interview with the vampire and after being in the TikTok fandom for a while without context. Now having context I have no idea why anyone should aspire to these two.

I love a good fictional toxic couple as much as the next personal who grew up to love mean mafia boss and detached alpha love stories but that it, fiction. It was obvious that Lestat only saw Louis as a possession, a new lover in this new city, maybe he hoped that Louis would love him back and by love I mean be utterly and completely devoted to him but still being his stubborn self. Because Lestat at the end of it all wants to be entertained and nothing is more terrifying to a vampire than boredom.

And for a while it seemed so, they were "happy and in love" but it wasn't enough for Lestat... Predictably. So he cheats. And it was cheating because prior Lestat had sold Louis on it being just the two of them vs the world. Then he brings in Antoinette and tells Louis he likes variety. Lestat had separated Louis from everyone he knew, evening offing Lilly and here he is telling Louis that he wants his variety, opening the relationship but only wanting it to be open on his end. Their relationship was doomed from the start, no healthy relationship could happen between a fledgling and maker the power difference was too much. Louis deceived himself that Lestat saw him as an equal, Lestat can't see anyone as an equal. He didn't not really care about Louis' feelings, we saw as much when he had Antoinette sing on his apology song to Louis. His pride was ultimately his downfall.

Ofcourse Louis is having a crisis of his existence something Lestat resents him for and here in comes my angel, Claudia.

I personally love the growth we see in her character from newly turned tween to going through a sort of puberty and dealing with the realities and limitations of her new life never really thought about the realities of being turned too young. Being forever stuck in a prepubescent body. And how even as she aged mentally she had the body of a child, who would love her then? "Perverts?" As she said.

Before watching the show I originally thought the show runners had pulled a Stephanie Meyer and maybe Louis had a child with some human woman. But this is much better.

Unfortunately she would later experience the harsh realities of being a woman, because youd think that being an all powerful vampire would protect you from S.A but I guess not. She became jaded but realised that louis loved her like a daughter like a sister, even though she was literally " a bandaid to a shitty marriage".

I laughed when Daniel said that because vampire or human. Having kids won't fix your relationship.

And it would be Claudia that would liberate them from Lestat, I can't imagine the anger she must've felt at Louis for not letting her burn him to confirm his death.

As for the ending, I loveeee Armand, so sage like and cook but I wonder what's in his past to make him like that and also when will Louis be old enough to go outside again.

[williamaltman]

Can y'all tag anti Nickistat and/or just not tag Nickistat if you're just gonna bash the ship? And for Nicolas' character in general tbh. It's one thing when you're just pointing out things as a part of analyzing the character or even appreciating the messiness/complexities of it all VS when you clearly don't like them because of ship "wars" (can't think of a better term rn).

And I can't help but feel like it's stupid that everyone goes around saying they love Loustat for how messy and toxic it is, and Louis murdering him in the show is the epitome of romance (it kinda was, that's not my point) but then will go on talking about how Nickistat "just aren't good for each other" or whatever because... Nicolas was depressed, had a breakdown and killed himself?

Like yes you could see some cracks there even before Lestat was turned but who actually knows how things would have turned out without Marius... Nicki cared enough that he was taking care of a dying Gabrielle after Lestat had ghosted him for weeks. Not to mention how things could have turned out for Nicolas later if he hadn't killed himself as a vampire. Do you not remember how chronically depressed Louis was throughout the end of IWTV? I remember reading that and thinking "how the fuck is this man ever going to be happy again?". If Nickistat had cracks, IWTV Loustat was a whole broken mirror. And then they turned out fine. Cause they're immortals with centuries to go over their drama.

Anyway I went on a tangent here. I was gonna do a more aggressive post but I didn't want people attacking me. From what I understand the book fandom has managed to stay chill about this (I might be wrong), but I'm not looking forward to how messy things are gonna get when the show adapts TVL. It's years from now but I can already see the foundation for the discourse starting. I just don't get why some people feel threatened by a ship where the character who would mess with your OTP is already dead before they even met.

Actually I kinda get it in this case, because of the whole "Oh I fell in love when I saw him cause he was so much like Nicolas" thing. But AR literally wrote "but Louis had an even bigger hold on me" or so right after so that y'all wouldn't worry so much about it (it kinda stung tbh, but I accept it and have my own interpretation of it).

Not that her/Lestat's words necessarily needs to be gospel, everyone kinda picks and chooses what they "accept" from her interviews/comments and even Lestat's narration and end up having their own interpretations.

But the whole "who would Lestat choose between Nicki and Louis?" question is just always used as a way to get validation from other Loustat shippers who you already know are gonna give you the answer you want, rather than actually wanting to hear other perspectives and create interesting discussion. It's so pointless.

Anyway. Leave Nicki alone!!! That's all I'm actually trying to say IG.

[zisurru]

shit anon once again ty for your response

unfortunately yes i do mean the whole turning - i’m not sure how into it i’d be irl, but reading about it definitely; as for why personally probably partially a really intense dennis cooper phase when i was relatively young (still king of my heart), and with iwtv it’s like okay he’s a dead body

like the disgust of that, all of his bodily fluids being forced from him without his control - it’s not graphic at all in the book, louis is very demure about it which i think is funny. yeah girl beautiful women don’t poop 💖

we don’t know really know anything about his life pre brother death, but safe to assume he’s incredibly repressed, and here’s this beautiful guy, who wants to whisk him away, who reminds him of his brother who’s death he feels responsible for.

Like he wants Lestat to kill him, we don’t know if he’s ever had sex with another man before, but from his whole deal i think it’s safe to assume he never ‘initiated’ or ‘asked for it’. but like he wants this to happen, he kills the overseer (before the actual act he keeps changing his mind, and lestat has his arm wrapped around his chest, and in the book louis bullshits daniel, like my fate was sealed from the first night i saw him 😔).

and then that boy is murdered and the murder is the sex act — like there’s this trope of sublimated homosexual desire leading to violence / murder and the sex-death drive, and i’m not getting into how i feel about that lol, but obviously here lestat is not repressed at all and he’s doing the murdering; but it makes me think about how louis is perceiving it or wants to perceive it. like that desire mingled with alienation and contempt and terror to the point of masochistic anguish.

and obviously in tvc blood sharing and taking a life is the ultimate pleasure etc.

i’m rambling but in short i think what does it for me is — deeply repressed, overcome with grief over his dead brother whom he feels he killed, seemingly the perfect sexual and romantic partner who he mistakes at first sight for dead brother, but he can’t admit to himself that it’s sexual or romantic attraction, the murder, being completely overcome in every way by this guy, but the aftermath of it too. like his body won’t decompose, he doesn’t disappear, but his body is dying - anne rice doesn’t go into it and i’m not sure about vampire biology, but what i think is the sex is over, he’s dead and his muscles loosen and his bowels release. like that boy is a dead body now and lestat did that to him. and it makes me feel a lot of things and it also makes my dick hard.

sorry for vomiting in ur inbox idk how much sense this makes lmao

i am aslo a fan of ur writing btw!

that’s a detailed breakdown thank you for sharing anon. sex and death are obviously intimately connected concepts but i’ve never heard it described quite like this before

and thank you! my stuff is pretty light and low-stakes obviously but i do understand the appeal of like…overwhelming shame vs. loss of control vs. desire and alienation from desire. louis is the perfect vessel for that because he’s SO repressed that you want to puncture him with a pin like a balloon that’s been filled up too much and see what comes out

[blueiight]

In light of all the one night stand discourse I’d like to propose my “Lestat isn’t actually that good of a lay.” hot take. At least with strangers. I think in the books he makes himself sound better than he is at everything. And he can just hypnotized people with his mind powers to make them think he is the absolute best. Yeah he eats period pussy but he is a vampire so that’s not a sacrifice or anything that’s just a treat for him. And the black tar heroin stuff is coming strictly from Louis who was so down bad for this man and also I do believe Lestat was so obsessed with Louis that he gave him the best dick of all time. I don’t expect most to agree but I shall die on this hill 🫡

Also also also I know none of this is serious BUTTTT I do find it interesting that the fandom goes on and on about how Louis is an unreliable narrator but then a lot of them use Louis’ “black tar heroin dick” as absolute gospel. Like I wish they would believe Louis like that in other instances BUT I know the poll was for fun so I’ll leave it at that lmaoo

no u definitely making points anon come to the mic.. sexual experience ≠ good experience lol. & w lestat i feel as though he , like all these other immortals , practice a certain level of self delusion in various aspects of his life. books wise vampires never could have sex (tho they be tonguin eachother downnn gurl) and this plays a role in their estrangement from human life. a semi erotic , eternal creature languishing in desire, destined to be lusted after but never being fully able to act on its lust, an incomplete being seeking the memory of desire in the sanguine. which is why bloodletting n consumption is transparently sexual. but amc verse they have that & sex, and in this the contemporary understanding of the vampire as the erotic is complete. lonely, eternal, but can be an agent of desire as much as it is desired. a lestat whos been abandoned time& time again may brag of his eros, but will take his heart out of the equation when it comes to people he has casual sexual encounters with.. n like i said on my twt period pussy prolly taste like candy to them lol. esp w a side of fibroids (vampire chocolate). yes vampires age out of needing to feed but clearly lestat amc wise isnt strong enough to be in the sun so he do need to feed & whos to say they couldnt have a lil fun. he has psychologcial love n obsession for ppl but sees casual sex as a sort of food reviewer’s best eats guide manual lol. & as for louis yes! funnily enough, lestat is where louis shows his inconsistencies nd self delusions glaringly. louis speaking like a resentful ex in 1973 vs fawning over a gothic romance in 2022-23. i was his superior in every way v. he was my maker and lover. what happened to make louis loathe the memory of lestat in 1973, and what makes him look back fondly on him in 2022? he omits the 1912-1917 years, breezes thru the 6 years w/ claudia before she left, the years of depression/ennui w/ lestat & the recuperation from his traumatic beatdown. these are some of the most glaring gaps in louis’s narrative & most if not all of them have a lot to do with lestat. granted i do think for louis, a louis at the time whos never had any sexual experiences that went as far as lestat beforehand it was an addictive feeling. the little drink is an explicit pun on la petit mort (the little death = an orgasm) & is shown to induce pleasurable feelings in human and vampire, but takes a great amount of restraint to even sustain w/o killing the person. lestat showed this restraint, a desire for intimacy with louis in that moment that it would be very addictive for louis who was starved for true intimacy& even to a louis now looking back w the knowledge of vampirism n what that entail..currently in a failmarriage… tryna rile his 2nd husband up.. likeeee. dw twizzy we both overthinking this we cockwatch 2dcharas over here🤝

[murfpersonalblog]

IWTV S2 Ep1 Musings - Revenants Pt2

This is the 2nd half of my Revenants Musings. It's unrelated to Pt1, tbh, except that I'm still talking about revenants. But now I'm switching gears to talk about Louis' POV & attitude towards them.

In Europe, he & Claudia are looking for 2 things: ARTICULATE vampires who can explain more about vampires than Lestat; and LOVING vampires with whom they can create a new home.

Mindless Revenants, and Looking for "Good"/God

We get these huge themes in S2 AND S1, that at surface level seem to be making value/character judgements about American vs (Eastern) European vampires, and society at large.

However, it's long been established that the good/bad dichotomy is highly subjective in TVC, and doesn't really apply or work. Not only are we talking about serial killing vampires; but we're also talking about the world at large. AR's TVC has a VERY dark & bleak outlook on the world--no one particular country or culture or religion, but ALL of them. This is summed up by Akasha, desperately wanting to put an end to war & violence (in the most fatalistic way possible).

Lestat's Vampire Court holds that what makes eternal life worth enduring is aesthetics, beauty, art; specifically: Lestat's concept of The Savage Garden, in contrast with the self-loathing of Alessandra's Devil's Road (which they've given to Daciana on the show).

It's categorically white privileged post-Renaissance/Enlightenment colonialist imperialist artistic nonsense, but AR's vampires are bougie AF classist elitist aesthetes who used to be Old World dynasts and Merovingian queens and French marquises and Roman patricians and American slaveowners, and other exploitative aristocrats. So we're scraping the bottom of the barrel, really--none of these are ethically/morally "good" or "bad" peoples, vampires, or countries.

AMC!Louis has a VERY interesting scene when he & Claudia argue.

YES, actually. XD Projecting much! That's one of the FIRST things Louis can't wait to ask Armand in the book/movie!

Louis is Catholic. Like--HELLA Catholic. But Louis' such a coward that he'd rather deny the obvious: convince himself that God doesn't exist; there's wild baboons out there in effing EUROPE; he's an apex predator who only eats helpless baby foxes and guys he has to PAY to feed on; "love? what love?!;" Lestat WHOMST?; Claudia didn't think Paris sucked at all~!; I'm not super depressed & missing my husband, the blood is just "bad" here; I need to find "good" vamps just like me!

Louis does NOT think he OR vampires are good--AT ALL. Like Armand in TVA/Memnoch, Lou's looking for proof that God exists, and for confirmation that they really are damned; forsaken by God.

But Armand couldn't tell him anything, cuz the Children of Satan who taught him didn't have any answers, either. But TVL/QotD blows the lid wide open, when Lestat finally spills the beans & exposes ALL the truths Claudia & Lou had badgered him with over 100 years before.

NOLA had no answers. Eastern Europe had no answers. Paris had no answers. The only vamps who ever gave Louis concrete answers were Lestat in TVL, Maharet in QoTD, and Amel in the PL trilogy. And it's only in the PL trilogy that Louis finally gives up believing in the "Devil's Road," and starts accepting the Savage Garden instead, as Lestat's Blood Spouse at the end of the series LOUIS started.

Mindless Revenants, and The Coven of the Articulate

Although they're both looking for connection, community, companionship, Claudia's Louis' priorities are very different, cuz they've had VERY different experiences with vampirism. Claudia is looking for someone who'll love & respect HER as an adult, despite her being made as a child. Louis is looking for someone to BE in love with, cuz he was made out of love.

For Claudia, she and Daciana are rather similar, cuz they treat the revenant (a grown man) like a child--Claudia sees herself as someone who can be his mentor/mother, teaching him how to eat and hunt and talk; someone she can have KINSHIP with; "the same."

But for Lou, he wants sentient vampires, not mindless revenants.

Claudia read him for FILTH, cuz YES: Louis wanted to be hunted courted. He's a hopeless romantic who likes walks in the park & nights at the opera & bookish conversations by the hearth at home.

At the end of TVC, the most important members of the Vampire Court are the "Coven of the Articulate;" those who'd written the TVC books & shared their stories & explained their place in world history.

And Louis is their founding member, the godfather of their immortal book club, the bookworm who kickstarted TVC with Daniel in IWTV. Unlike a LOT of vampires, Lou never went to ground; he stays awake & keeps a whole archive/library. (He's SO similar with Maharet.) How much he's actually LEARNING? Who knows. But he ENDURES.

Mindless Revenants, and Looking for Love in all the Wrong Places

Lou's starving for (romantic) love. So ofc Louis rejects the revenant on sight. There's nothing romantic/charming about him. Louis feels ZERO kinship with it, despite it very clearly being in fact a vampire--"the same" as him.

YOU'RE dirty, Louis--you literally looked like a nasty AF zombie at the beginning of this episode, wtf? XD

Which makes Lou's whole reaction to DreamStat HILARIOUSLY sad.

Cuz at the end of the day it's not REALLY about what the revenant looks like--though yes, ofc it's hideous & sheltered pretty-boy Lou's SHOCKED that vampires can even look that bad. Cuz unfortunately, AMC never gave us our Swamp King! 😩

AMC is REALLY beating us over the head with just how down horrendous Loustat are for each other. DreamStat's got a whole effing bat clawing its way out of his gashed throat, but Lou's still standing there, tears in his eyes, apologizing, and letting this ghoulish creature neck on him in the middle of a frikkin battlefield reeking of corpses, like...sir. 😨 Jfc, BOTH of y'all're nasty freaks, huh?

Cuz what matters is that it's LESTAT and LOUIS. Covered in gore & filth & at their absolute WORST, these stupid mofos STILL love each other. LBH, if Swamp King revenant-looking DreamStat had popped up instead, Lou would've STILL dropped trou and started singing voulez vous coucher avec moi, ce soir~! 😍

Only difference is that there's no reason for AMC's version to look like that, since Les got off easy in Ep7. So instead we get the beauty filter, as Lestat gets less & less bloody/gory every time we see him, until he shows up at the Trial for realsies.

So when Claudia & Louis make these sweeping statements about "bad" vs "good," this MUST be treated with a grain of salt, considering the layers of context in AR's TVC universe & how vampires operate, and perceive the world. Louis' not REALLY looking for anything in Europe--he's just running far away from what (who) he wants most.

[daffenger]

iwtv chapter 5 thoughts like WAH !!!

Louis' nursing on Rashid at the beginning of the episode, Rashid talking for Louis, Rashid & Daniel's weird blood taste stand-off ! WAH !

Daniel basically being here to chronicle Louis' last words (acc. to Rashid) ! WAH !!!

Claudia, wahhh :,0 she's just so so so good. i was pleasantly surprised that they didn't have her just go the mad vampire route. she was for a bit (& i supported her!), & then getting out of the stifling hotbed of resentment of rue royale & exploring the world allowed her to grow up & clear her mind (not talking about *that* bruce/killer scene to be clear).

i think one of the reasons people do the iwtv/hannibal comparison is that they have the same kind of absolutely grim, hilarious humour at times. like drunk claudia having to get rid of the evidence even as the police is going through the house, and her little no no noes as she picks up the thumb in her jewellery box, the toe on her bedside table, suddenly remembers the *peeled off breast* in her drawer? and then the entire, still-breathing man in her closet !!!!?

though i had spoilers blacklisted a few text posts got through, mostly critic about critic of the episode so i had a general idea of the quote unquote unsavoury stuff, and my own grain of salt is that the fact lestat's actions don't seem un-lestaty to me (i'm leery of referring to canon-compliance as the benchmark of quality in an adaptation but book lestat does go into a dissociative state get up himself & commit atrocities, that is a thing he does). It did hurt very much to see the state of Louis. it's also interesting that daniel has been calling out the relationship as unbalanced and toxic in a way that seemed confrontational/didn't fit with louis' vision of it, and then we get to this part and like. it seems like louis wanted to tell the story as he saw it, not as informed by what happened later, and daniel could see the seeds already. which makes it look in turn as if it as louis blinding himself vs the relationship taking a sudden sour turn.

the part where louis called to claudia, telling her everything was alright and to stay where she was -- i imagine he was talking to her in her mind, trying to keep her away from danger...? the louis & claudia relation breaks my whole heart every time :,o him calling to her so loud & for so long that he draws other vampires to their territory...!

ALSO one thing i really love in the 1994 movie is when it shifts into the horror genre--when lestat comes back after they buried him in the bayou, with jumpscares & all. & in the show when he floats back down slowly in the background as claudia is crying over louis. when he stands like a gargoyle with his black black eyes. same vibes. shifting narration, shifting genres...

I've been thinking that it's a bit difficult to know what exactly Louis said in the first interview, bc the basic blocks of this version have changed so much. I don't think we're supposed to believe Louis passed himself as an 18th century plantation/slave owner, invented the character of Lestat's old father whole-cloth, or made Claudia out to be younger than she was, etc. but we must understand that he did lie about Claudia's psychology, & her leaving the house for years ? or did he talk about it without going into the details or why or how long, etc.

[monstersinthecosmos]

Hi Kacy! Question: do you like Lestat? Like, what is your opinion on him? Also I was wondering.. what is your least favorite VC character, and why?

fhjskdglsd lmao he is my least favorite VC character  🥸

But!!!!!!!! There’s some nuance here for me. 

Like, he’s the main narrator so if I TRULY couldn’t stand him I don’t think I’d like the books. I don’t hate Lestat. I also could group the many many many extraneous characters in the back half of the series as my least favorite, too, but it’s fair to say that I don’t care about them. I would’ve enjoyed more content about the characters we already knew and liked instead of having to spend so much time with like all the PL trilogy randos. So, of the main cast, my least favorite is Lestat.

A lot of this is like, subjective and personal and about preference, because we see the double standards in fandom constantly, like why do we give Lestat a pass while we demonize Marius for the same shit, etc. And for me as a Marius Girlie (GN), WHY DO I GIVE MARIUS A PASS ON STUFF LESTAT ALSO DOES? I can’t really explain it, I just don’t like him. LOL.

But what I find really fascinating is that Marius and Lestat are like, the father & son version of the same character. They have SO much in common, and it’s really engaging for me to use Lestat to extrapolate ideas about Marius. I think a lot about how they’re sort of pessimist/optimist versions of each other, too, and how perhaps Lestat’s “nauseating buoyancy” is what allows him to make such terrible, public decisions, vs Marius who has similar bouts of creative frenzy, similar self-loathing cycles, similar uses of ego, but who often crumbles and withdraws into himself without making Lestat-Sized messes. 

And like, how much of this speaks to their inherent personalities vs the lore about your age and temperament? Would Marius have been like this if he’d been turned at 20 when he was still full of verve? If Lestat had made it to 40 would he have calmed down? Was Marius this much of a mess in his first couple centuries, and will Lestat be like this if he makes it to 2000?

As a VC fan in general, I think whenever I’m reading one of Lestat’s books I’m usually really plugged in and enjoying him in the moment, but like, I am so much more invested in the de Romanus bloodline, like, in TVL I am so engaged with Lestat until Armand shows up, and then I’m like NO LET’S SPEND MORE TIME WITH THIS GUY. Same with the Marius chapter, it’s my favorite! And TVA/B&G/Pandora are my favorite. I mostly enjoy the other books, but whenever I do a reread it’s always a relief to make it to de Romanus books. THE DARK TRIAD, if you will.

I get him, too. Like, I get it lol. I get it. But I think by the back half of the series I just get super sick of him, and a lot of it has to do with the way the writing devolves. TVL Lestat is a very different person than Post-MTD Lestat, even PL Lestat, and I think when we start dissecting Anne Rice’s use of him as a Mary Sue it gets really annoying. There’s also like, the huge list of -isms in VC that we’ve discussed to death, and things Anne Rice handled better or worse, and even Post-QOTD Lestat really bugs the fuck out of me with how he treats Louis, and the way he is so plainly abusive to his lovers.

Like, I’m here all day defending Marius/TVA LOL and discussing diegetic kink and brand contamination and telling everyone it’s not that deep, and so this is my flaw as well that I give Marius a pass on stuff that I blame on the writing, vs how I have a hard time giving Lestat the same grace. It’s subjective, in a way, too, because the specific ways Lestat treats Louis are really triggering to me personally, and I have a hard time seeing past it, the way some people have a hard time seeing past Marius, or even a hard time seeing past the way Armand abuses Daniel. We all have little things like that, so I’m not judging anyone who enjoys it, it’s just not for me. I find it easy to understand the non-diegetic BDSM in TVA but less easy to watch the way Lestat treats Louis and David long term, the way his shitty behavior doesn’t get called out, the way Louis never gets to stick up for himself, the way David is so broken and traumatized and terrified of him but we never talk about it again except when Lestat makes a rape joke about it. Etc!!!

He’s just such a terror to everyone in his life, like! I feel sorry for everyone who gets involved with him! He’s traumatic to be around! AND LIKE, THE THEME OF VC IS THAT MESSES & BAD PEOPLE ALSO DESERVE LOVE, but like. Christ lol. He can meet us halfway and work on himself too lol. 

And it's interesting to ask like, when we talk about how Lestat gets a pass in the universe and no one holds him accountable, I think it's fair to analyze points of view and ask if it's simply Lestat withholding any criticism, but like ! idk! He turned a child lol. That happened! Other people met her! TOBT is about how he realizes he's a monster and accepts it, and decides he'd do it again! I love TOBT so much for being such a cool portrait of his evil, really! And it's part of his charm, too, like we like him as a character because he's charming and perhaps people in the universe also always forgive him because he's charming! He's just too irresistible LOL. But there's a turning point where it just starts feeling flat, the charm feels unironic, it doesn't feel like we're seeing him as a charming monster anymore. (This is just me but maybe it's because I get bored and don't analyze the later Lestat books enough.)

By the end it felt like Anne Rice writing silly lil stories about her lil guy, I get it. But I don’t really enjoy that in the writing and so like, I can’t say that I enjoy the Lestat stories too much, and whether it’s diegetic or not, he bugs the fuck out of me LOL.

On a fandom level, too, like, he’s the main character and Loustat is the juggernaut ship. He’s not neglected, there’s plenty of fan content about him. I don’t feel particularly obligated to create works for him or give him more attention, he’s doing fine lol. I don’t think I have anything to say about him that hasn’t been said, and I’m not interested in taking up space in fandom as a salty Lestat hater, so I just leave a polite distance. 

I do like him when I’m in the moment reading his books, I really value him as the main narrator, there are scenes of his that break my heart, Lestat/Nicki is one of my top ships of all time, I love him as a scared boy trying so hard to be good, I love him as a tortured creative person who needs so deeply to be heard, I love him as a baby fledgling who doesn’t know what to do and is so so so scared of losing people, but I also get sick of him and think that, as the main narrator, he shoulders the brunt of the weird writing decisions in the second half, and I’m just over it! Idk!