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crescentmoonsandroses · 4 months ago

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Deltarune's themes of escapism and why they hit me hard

I was going to do some Deltarune art based around this and then just have the definition of escapism under it, but I can't think of what to draw, so I'm just going to ramble about it instead.

Deltarune, as I'm sure many many other people have pointed out before, has strong themes of escapism in addition to its themes of control, freedom, the narrative, etc. The Dark Worlds transform objects into people, rooms into environments, high school students into heroes. They seem to bring to life the sorts of games you played as a kid, with your toys and your friends, making up a story that played out in your mind, enhanced by your imagination. It's theatre of the mind, helped along by the toys and props and whatnot - like when you're playing D&D, too. This sort of thing is mainly in Chapter One, with the game pieces and cards and toys. I remember playing make-believe with practically everything as a kid - I made up stories with chess pieces a few times, that was fun. Castle Town and Card Kingdom are both reminiscent of a very traditional form of escapism: fantasy.

The Cyber World is a little different, but it still holds the same sort of idea - hell, we're all here on Tumblr, we know what it's like to bury ourselves in the internet, in videos and memes and posts, and forget the world for a little while. This is emphasised by Queen's commentary - I can't find the exact quote, but it's something about being worried that the Lightners will become depressed without the 'bliss' of the internet, which isn't currently working in Hometown. We also know that Chapter 3 will take place in Toriel's lounge room and seems to be specifically based around the TV (and, this is off topic, but I literally just realised Mike could be, like, mic, as in microphone, and Tenna could be short for antenna), which can also be a form of escapism for people. I know that my mum, for one, watches TV most nights.

There's also the specific characters who fall into the Dark Worlds - Kris, Susie, Noelle, Berdly.

Kris seems to be considered weird by most of Hometown, where they are the only human and don't seem to have many - or, well, any - real friends apart from their brother, who was the town's golden boy, who everyone keeps talking about and seems to hold in high regard, whose side of the bedroom holds trophies and pictures and colour while Kris' is bare and grey (they also have Susie now, but she only became their friend during the first Dark World). In the Dark World, however, Kris gets to be a hero, sword and shield raised, saving the world with their friends. Everyone in Castle Town loves them. The room Ralsei built for them has trophies aplenty. And then there's the matter of Ralsei, who looks so much like Toriel and Asgore and Asriel, who is so nice and so supportive of Kris, who has pink horns like maybe a certain red headband faded (yes I headcanon that Ralsei is Kris' old horn headband and will continue to do so until proven wrong).

Susie, who drinks milk from back alleys and threatens to eat people's faces, who didn't actually call home when she had a sleepover with Kris, who gets uncomfortable around the block of flats in Hometown, who doesn't seem to know how to react when shown kindness or friendship, who considers herself the 'bad guy'. Well, she gets to be that bad guy, strong and powerful and scary, with a big axe and sharp teeth and enemies to defeat. And then she gets to have friends, she gets to have food, she gets to be the hero and maybe that's not so bad after all if she does it alongside people she cares about, people who care about her. We can see how much happier she is in the Dark Worlds.

Berdly, who tries so hard to be perceived as smart, who loves videogames. I don't have as much to say about him, honestly, but his Dark World design is quite distinctively Cyber World when compared to the other Lightner's more fantasy-inspired designs, and being in the Dark World gives him the chance to be a hero, even if he's not great at that for most of Chapter 2.

And Noelle. Noelle, whose sister seems to be missing or dead, whose dad is in hospital, whose mum is the town's mayor and works a lot and has an icy personality. Noelle who searches for bugs and secrets in the games she seems to love. Noelle who wishes she had magic to heal her dad. Noelle who seems to feel powerless to help someone she loves, who doesn't stand up to Berdly or her mum. Once she's in the Dark World, she can heal people. She stands up to Queen, who is a sort of mother figure. She gets to spend time with Susie. She gets to see the city lights that Dess promised her.

All this to say that Deltarune in general and the Dark Worlds specifically have some not-so-subtle themes of escapism.

Now, the 'why it hits me hard' bit. Escapism has always been one of my main coping strategies, and even beyond that, I love fantasy, I love stories, I love burying myself in another world. It's much easier to be in a world where there's magic and quests and maybe there's struggles and strife and people still get hurt and mess up and go through bad things, but eventually there's a happy ending because that's how stories work, they don't have the constant uncertainty of real life. And, you know, if I could go to a Dark World, I would. I can understand why Susie likes the Dark Worlds so much, why Noelle and Berdly wanted to make another. Escapism is something that I can understand, especially after having struggled with my mental health for a few years (I'm a lot better now though). The world can be messy and complicated and hard, and wouldn't it be nice to be in a different world for a bit, one where you can be who you want to be and you don't feel lost anymore?

So, uh... yeah lol.

#deltarune #deltarune themes #escapism #rambling #kris #kris dreemurr #deltarune kris #susie #deltarune susie #noelle #noelle holiday #deltarune noelle #berdly #deltarune berdly #dark world #deltarune dark world #rose's rambles #it is currently 1 am

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stainedglassthreads · 1 year ago

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I just. Love how delighted Toriel is that Kris has a friend, and doesn't really care who said friend is. In Chapter 1, the second Kris says that they're hanging out with a friend, Toriel's tune changes immediately and she says Kris can continue hanging out with said friend as long as they please. In Chapter 2, when she meets Susie, she doesn't get judgmental in any way, and all their interactions are just really cute. Baking together, punning together, letting her stay over...

Like, with how Toriel is characterized in Deltarune compared to Undertale, I feel like a lot of people make her...meaner, I guess. They take how she acts around Asgore, and use that to inform how she'd act in other situations. But she doesn't think Susie is a bad influence on Kris at all, she's really happy to welcome Susie into the house and meet her! It's adorable! So I don't think she's quite as strict and judgmental as some assume, or if she is, her desire for Kris to be happy overrides her 'knows what's best for you' tendencies. She's clearly not fully aware of Kris' situation, but is aware enough to be concerned, and to let some things (like waking them up, letting them wander Hometown after school, or devouring an entire pie) slide if it means they're safe and happy.

...On the flip side. It's also kinda sad. Kris isn't really hated by anyone in Hometown, but between being the only human, the situation their parents are in, Asriel(who they're closest with) moving away, the emptiness of their room and how they sometimes lock themself in the bathroom for lengths of time, the way Berdly, MK, and Snowdrake talk about them at various points...it's not so hard to understand why Toriel's so happy and relieved that there's someone outside herself and Asriel Kris has a positive relationship with. They used to be friends with Noelle, and they seem on pretty good terms with Catti, but I don't think they're quite friends right now. So it's also somewhat sad. Susie is probably Kris' first friend in a very long time. But maybe Noelle and Berdly can also become genuine friends, too.

#deltarune #deltarune analysis #toriel #kris dreemurr #the issue with asgore seems to mostly be that he won't respect her boundaries #rather than actually trying to atone for whatever mistake her made or give her space #he rushes into 'trying to make her feel the way she used to' back when they were first married #i've discussed it before but it bears repeating i think #because it's an interesting piece of dr!asgore's character #and an interesting difference between him and ut asgore #ut asgore was so beaten-down and depressed that even when he daydreams about adopting frisk with toriel #he immediately realizes he can't ever really return to those times with asriel and chara. they're dead now #dr!asgore thinks there's still hope to get those times back. he hasn't hit rock bottom...but he's also kinda in denial #he is in a better place than ut!asgore but dealing with it much worse by refusing to move on

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kooki914 · 16 days ago

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I have to say I like that snowgrave analysis video. I love how you point out how noelle inherent he's mom coldness and her dad's complacency. However, I do think kris inherent their parents own flaws despite not trying to become them. Where given some dialogue that toriel was strict and controlling what asriel and kris did until recently. I mean, toriel made asriel go to church every day. Also toriel can have very authorian and harsh tone when she angry(granted it asgore not letting go). There Asgore being clingy and nit letting go on things. Sounds similar to kris-soul in snowgrave.

Hoo boy. I'm glad you liked the video but I'm not going to let this Toriel slander slide. Very long tangent under the read-more.

TL;DR: Toriel isn't a mean or harsh, especially not as a parent, and the way she acts towards Asgore is more than justified actually.

In my video, I made it VERY clear that I think the traits Kris is most mimicking are Asgore's, if unintentionally. Clinginess, constantly appealing to a sense of nostalgia and romance, and most importantly for the transactional analysis, constantly speaking from the Parent or Adult ego state to mask that they're acting on the needs of the Child state (impulsivity, loneliness, playfulness, emotional demands). Kris has abandonment issues similar to Asgore but more severe, and Kris isn't a people-pleaser like their father is - ergo, if we push them hard enough, they start acting manipulative in order to not be "left behind" again.

Toriel is, not only mature enough to properly use her Adult and Parent states, but also not really that strict at all? She's reactionary and can hold a grudge (mostly for petty things), but take a genuine look at the way she TALKS to Kris. She has a gripe with something they did for a few seconds before laughing it off (like in the case of their pie-eating) or being swayed to let them off the hook (exiting the school in ch1). Sure, these can still be seen as catastrophic or mocking from the point of view of a kid or a teenager like Kris is, but, like... they'll grow out of that. As an audience, we aren't meant to understand those scenes as Displays Of Harsh Parenting™, like we are for moments like Noelle being afraid of her mother or of Queen. Toriel is really lenient with Kris in practice, to the point I'd argue she's TOO lenient even about things like their depressive habits and lack of ambition.

She wants to ground them but when they mentioned they made a friend she drops it immediately. How is that authoritative? She took Asriel to church every day for only like a week after he had his first kiss because she's a paranoid christian worried about him. How is that HARSH? It's barely even a real punishment for Asriel, since he LIKES church, based on all the stuff under his bed and the anecdotes we get from Alvin (contrasted to Kris who only seemed to tolerate church for Fruit Juice). I don't mean to sound condescending, but if you think the way Toriel parents her kids is "harsh" I don't think you've ever actually met a mean or abusive parent.

(Tying this into a different theory of mine, the way Queen acts towards Kris showcases this too, as she's never strict or mean with them like she is with Noelle, Berdly or Ralsei. She treats them like an equal and like a fun person to be around while drunk, which is Not Good but also isn't a strict or mean parental personality. The worst of Toriel's parenting is not taking Kris' issues seriously enough and treating them with maturity before they've fully grown up and ready for that. I assume this is because Asriel's reached that level of maturity and Toriel subconsciously assumes the same applies to Kris. It be like that with younger siblings sometimes.)

Toriel can be a bit overbearing and smother her kids with affection (wanted or not), maybe a little deaf to their real needs, but NONE of that makes her a strict parent. And, maybe more importantly for this discussion, NONE of that is seen in the way Kris acts during the Snowgrave route.

Kris doesn't smother Noelle with affection, they don't make light of things she's done, they don't act overly forgiving of her transgressions, and they Certainly Don't Cave at her push-back. All of these things CAN be spun into an abusive or unhealthy dynamic for a weird route, but they weren't, deliberately so. I want you to keep in mind, Toriel is dismissive of Asgore NOW, but it's HEAVILY hinted that he slept on her couch for a really, REALLY long time after the divorce. That's not the kind of thing someone who's "authoritarian and harsh" would allow to happen. Toriel gave chance after chance to let Asgore out slowly and gently, but he refused to leave, he HAD to be kicked out. This is the OPPOSITE to what we see Kris doing in the Snowgrave route to Noelle - they're pushing and pushing and pushing and ANY sign of gentleness or compromise ends the route.

Again, I think Kris is very much embodying the Critical Parent rather than the Nurturing Parent they were raised with, exactly because of this. Even Asgore wouldn't push someone around like that, but KRIS WOULD, when backed into a corner. They're exhibiting the worst traits of their dad, while actively suppressing all the good traits their mother tried to teach them. It tracks in a psychological sense too - when you have two parents of opposite sexes, you're more likely to mimic the behaviors of the one that courted the sex you're attracted to (eg. if you're a striaght woman you're likely to act more like your mom, if you're a lesbian you're more likely to act like your dad, the ladder of which is (fun fact) seen with Noelle in general). In the Snowgrave route, Kris is romantically set up with Noelle, therefore they're mimicking the traits of the parent that courted a woman - and they're doing it without even noticing (as most of us do, this shit is hard-wired in some deep dark crevice of the human mind and even I get baffled when I notice it happening on accident).

I genuinely hate this "Toriel is mean and harsh" angle people try to take with her character for... Having A Spine, essentially. She's mean to Asgore and it's the kind of meanness that's not only warranted but also the result of a LONG time of enduring bullshit hoping it'll pass. God forbid a woman ever set boundaries, right? Because that's literally the only thing she did with him. I can't NOT acknowledge the underlying misogyny that plagues this sort of character assassination. When you look at the wider context, you see that Toriel is genuinely too quick to put other's needs before her own to her own detriment, and the current state of her and Asgore's strained acquaintanceship is just the aftermath of enduring way, way too much from someone trying to appeal to emotions that aren't even there. AND YET people frame it as her being ~mean~ and ~rude~ to Poow Widdle Asgowe UwU who's a grown man breaking his own dumbass heart because he's too obsessed with the past to leave his ex the fuck alone.

You all know me. You all know I love Asgore and would die for him. But for the love of fucking god, it is NOT Toriel's responsibility to coddle him and prioritise his feelings at every turn, ESPECIALLY when he's FAILING to consider HERS. He is a pitiable jackass and genuinely downtrodden, but that is not his ex wife's problem. She should not have to constantly worry about the feelings of a man she's not even with anymore. She shouldn't need to do a whole song and dance to let him down easy when he gives her flowers for the billionth time that she will always throw out. I hate that I have to type this out at all because some people just Don't Get their dynamic, being too blinded by the fact that Toriel DARED to stand up for herself and the guy she stood up to was SAD about it. Like come the fuck on.

What's left of their relationship isn't healthy, but it isn't unhealthy in the same way Kris and Noelle's Snowgrave dynamic is, and the broken Dreemurr household isn't wholly Toriel's fault. Asgore is the one making things worse by refusing to let go of her and move on - things probably would've been considerably better for everyone if he actually took the divorce seriously. Kris has a now nonexistent relationship with their dad because of the cumulative effect of Asgore constantly hitting on Toriel instead of doing literally anything else (like, gee I dunno, actually fixing his living situation, or even trying to bond with Kris without it involving Toriel or Asriel somehow), and Toriel shutting Asgore out because she doesn't see any other way out of having to deal with his bullshit (she is trying to avoid confrontation without bending over backwards to appeal to his emotions for the umpteenth time, and part of that involves not actively connecting Kris with Asgore because he's inevitably going to use them as a way to reach her, like we see him doing in ch1).

Yes, they're both flawed in their approaches, but I cannot in good faith let people call Toriel MEAN for what is essentially just sweeping issues under the rug because she's tired of constantly being bombarded by them. She's flawed in a lot of ways, but you are actively mischaracterising those flaws by describing her the way you did.

Is it kind of weird and nonsensical that she took Asriel to church over something as small as a kiss? Yeah, the game actively points that out. It is HARSH that she wanted to ground Kris at the end of chapter 1? No, not at all, because they essentially disappeared for an entire day without telling her. And I keep bringing up these two scenes in particular because I can't think of any other context in which her parenting can be seen as overly strict, and both of the examples are laughable. Toriel isn't a perfect mother, but there is no such thing as a perfect mother, and I think people should stop having double standards towards female characters in specific, especially concerning setting boundaries or not being completely devoted to other people's emotions.

To add a tangent to this tangent in order to wrap up the tangent, I actually kind of see this happening with Susie to an extent too, where some people in the fandom PRAISE her constantly for asking Kris if they're okay and being worried about them and Noelle. Like, yes, those ARE good traits and it shows she's a good friend, but why are THOSE the traits she's being complemented on? Why is THAT what people point to when they say she's a good person? Is it not equally as noteworthy that she's brave and doesn't take direction from anyone, not even the player? Isn't it more important to her wider characterisation that she's so out-of-the-box that she pushes other people out of their boxes, too? Isn't is clear she's much better at physical protection than any kind of emotional comfort, and why isn't THAT being complemented and praised about her?

Why is that capacity to be emotionally available what people applaud in all female characters, without exception? And why are those women and girls so heavily demonized when that emotional availability is taken away, like in Toriel's case?

And, in conclusion, I believe Spadesgore Tuffet must be canonised.

#deltarune #asks #rambles #not art #even though i included a lil sprite edit at the end of it as a palette clenser #snowgrave #kris deltarune #deltarune kris #kris dreemurr #toriel dreemurr #toriel #toriel deltarune #deltarune toriel #asgore #and no further tags for him #i feel like im tagging an ao3 fic like Asgore Is Mentioned #im p sure those tags for characters usually exist as trigger warnings but i think its funny to just include someone as a footnote #like yeah partly credited for the inciting incident or whatever but this aint about them

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dedicatedfollower467 · 6 months ago

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saw a post about deltarune completely unrelated to the thing they were talking about, but it said "berdly is 12" and i had an instant gut reaction of "he is NOT he's at LEAST 14" and that made me realize that i don't think there is anything in the game so far that actually confirms how old any of the main characters are? and now i'm having a fucking crisis over it.

like i just assumed kris and susie and co were in high school? there's a couple of things that suggest it to me:

kris and asriel share a bedroom, which in my experience usually only happens when siblings are relatively close in age, and asriel is at college, which suggests that kris is in their teens.

the fact that alphys asks kris about the teen section at the library, also implying that kris is a teen.

wandering around town without adult supervision feels very high school to me, even if it IS a relatively safe town to wander in.

and like, idk the themes and the vibes seem teenager-ly to me.

but like. i don't REMEMBER if deltarune ever actually states how old any of them are beyond vaguely implying teenagers, so they very well COULD all be eighth graders and if berdly's on the young side for the class he could, in fact, be 12. but that feels SO FUCKING WRONG to me, berdly feels like a young teenager to me, like 14ish, 13 at the very youngest. not 12. and yes that's only like a 1-2 year age gap but boy does 8th grade feel different from high school when you're living it y'know? or at least it did to me

it was probably hyperbole or something but man i feel like i'm losing my mind.

#deltarune #kris dreemurr #susie deltarune

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abyssal-author-and-artist · 1 month ago

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ramble about noelle. now. no choice. now.

I mean it's 6:30 am for me and I'm at the point in the all-nighter where I might just pass out so... of course I will!

She's honestly probably my second favorite character. (First is Berdly my favorite boyfailure) Like yeah Kris is cool and all but first Noelle's design is just so good. I note this in some of my older drawings that I haven't posted but her design can very easily be adjusted to echo the Delta Rune - the horns can mimic the wings, and I give her three freckles on each side and then her nose is prominent to be the three triangles. Make her face more heart shaped instead of oblong and boom! Delta Rune face!

Second the Snowgrave Route has me by a chokehold and always has. I have an au that plays with it but I really wish I had leaned harder into her being manipulated because her whole headspace in that route is so fascinating to my angsty little heart. She suffers and I'm here for it.

In all seriousness, though, I like looking at her through the lens of her being expected to know everything and have it all together when she's thrust into this strange world with no preparation and no prior experience. As the player, you're handed control of her mental state. In a normal route, you help her be more confident in all encounters, help her learn how to navigate social situations more easily and let her embrace silliness similar to how you help Berdly. In the Snowgrave Route, you teach her to black out and do horrible things. You tell her to give all her control to you and she does, but it ends up making her terrified of giving up control because she doesn't want to hurt people, doesn't want the shutdown and blankness that comes with her giving over control.

Side tangent, that leads into Kris Noelle parallels! In the Snowgrave Route, you force Noelle to give over control and, at least in my opinion, it makes her act a lot like Kris in some ways once you leave the Dark World. She's quieter, seems to carry herself differently, is more defensive and possessive. She's terrified of giving up control. At the same time, she's also still acting in ways you've taught her to. Reminds me a little of certain Kris behaviors/headcanons - they're very possessive of Susie at times, and I personally love to headcanon Kris as having no filter when the soul isn't possessing them because they're so used to having a forced filter. Truth be told, any parallels here are mostly conjecture because Kris can't act super independently, but i do enjoy thinking of them as playing up their weirdest quirks to still be themself, which I just love.

Another thing involving Kris - I'm very decidedly neutral on Kriselle (at least normal Kriselle, Snowgrave toxic fucked up Kriselle is my shit) but I love looking at Kris and Noelle's relationship platonically. Estranged best friends who still care for each other but don't know how to anymore. Kris playing Noelle's piano means so much to me you don't even know. I want to make a young Noelle design so I can draw her listening to them play. They both mean so much to me as friends who want to reconnect but can't. Pulled apart by the same connections that once pulled them together (Asriel and Dess). There's so much there and it makes me feel things I'm just now delirious enough to express.

Okay Kris-related tangent over they can go back to their moss corner now. Let's talk about Noelle and gifted kid burnout! Because she is going to hit it so hard honestly. Bear with me since it's been a while since I've seen a playthrough and I'm about to ho into the arguably more "pay attention or you die" part of the game that I never paid attention during so I might get stuff wrong.

If I recall correctly Noelle's actively a star student. Doesn't seem like she struggles too much, either. She's a great student - always answers questions, always gets good grades, etc. I've seen a lot of takes with her mom pressuring her to study constantly, which is a good take, don't get me wrong! I just find her more interesting - to me - if she's coasting through without trying, because if she's anything like me when I was in middle/high school, she knows a huge burnout is coming. She can tell she's starting to have to care about little and she's about to crash and burn so hard. Imagine having paralyzing anxiety and also knowing you're about to hit gifted kid burnout lol (<- the words of a man who was like that a year ago. Now I just have the burnout proper!)

Her relationship with Susie is fascinating to me too. Have you seen that meme of Timmy Turner from Fairly Oddparents (i think that's who it is) praying going "please God let this happen it would be so fucking funny" except "this" is "suselle not be canon"? Because I unironically love that from a writing standpoint. I am a Suselle shipper through and through but honestly I think they have a lot of potential outside of it being canon. I love the idea of Noelle struggling to get over her crush and failing. Their relationship warping into new, unseen flavors of gay pining. Something just west of queer-platonic, where it's inherently romantic but neither is able to acknowledge it as such. Nothing actively toxic, just Noelle begging for Susie to hold her hand so hard it hurts - partially because sign of affection and partially because Noelle has a pattern of wanting Susie to hurt her which I could unpack but would have to at least touch on topics I don't really feel comfortable infodumping about in this otherwise sfw post at - wait it's already 7:30? So that's enough Susie and Noelle for now! Although I still think they should go on gay little dates.

Is it Kris tangent part 2 if it's Player tangent? Because Player tangent time! Mostly a bunch of points i touched on in Kris tangent. You can control her a lot. Ruin her psyche forever etc etc. This is honestly my Snowgrave Kriselle toxic mess tangent because let's be real, it isn't even Kriselle. It's not Kris x Noelle. It's Player x Noelle. You manipulate her and break her and make her scared and dependent on you and then you give her a Thorn Ring and she bleeds and gets stronger through pain and the whole time she is forced to do whatever you want and I. I just. There's so much symbolism there and it's so pretty. (Which leads into my catholic guilt tangent later which is already written but I might as well add to it.) So messed up. A part of my Gravity Falls infected brain wants to say "it's a little Billford" because I know you would understand what I mean. So I will! Snowgrave Kriselle is sorta Billford with more catholic guilt to me. Like Noelle's like "ah my best friend Kris! :) We've grown apart recently but I trust them implicitly and will not consider what they want me to do! :D Oh no, they betrayed me? :( That's not good. I'll just back out now- what do you mean the religious iconography built directly into our relationship means I am directly tied to them and they're allowed to order me as they choose while I am forced to listen because I am simply a servant of our God figure who is controlling Kris. What do you mean there's catholic guilt woven into my bones and I cannot escape because my whole situation is extremely easy to see as a metaphor for religious trauma. Stop it. Stop making my symbolism indicative of real-life situations I don't want you be trapped because of the guilt and shame associated with leaving being so intense and ingrained into my character that I can't leave. D:"

Also, taking a deeper look at the Angel iconography surrounding her? The robes and the Thorn Ring and the everything? Oh yeah, I could write some religious trauma into that girl. (Well I already did because I wrote this out of order and my religious trauma rant got out of hand.) Bonus points because she's canonically queer - bless you Toby Fox writing lesbians into everything you touch - and double bonus points if you headcanon her trans! Imagine having your religion held against you to make you hate yourself as you just try to live and then also you go to a terrifying magic world and also get kidnapped while dressed like the icon that's used to guilt trip you into thinking you're irredeemable. So terrifying and fascinating I could just blend her in the Blorbo Blender. Trademark.

And Snowgrave Route? Whooooo the catholic guilt metaphor is strong with this one! I already mentioned the Thorn Ring - a reference to crucifixion and the crown of thorns? Not sure, I never got that far in the Bible (wasn't raised religious but was forced to read the Bible as punishment once or twice). She gives herself over to a sort of savior, a godlike figure, Kris. Something something parallels between Kris and Chara/Frisk Undertale means parallels between Kris and the Angel that the Undertale children represent and therefore Kris can be regarded as a sort of messiah like figure in accordance to that and therefore Noelle gives herself over to a messiah (Kris) and suffers because of it. Not even overtly. Kris never hurt anyone else. They only hurt her. And really, they made her stronger. Sure they guilt her into killing a non-believer (Berdly), but they also make her stronger, stronger than they could ever be. She's now reliant on them and a wreck without them, but they pulled her out of one of the worst times of her life - heedless of the pain they inflicted on her - and they haven't ruined Susie. Isn't it her fault they hurt her? Did she not devote herself enough? Did she make a mistake somehow? Some small, imperceptible slight against them? Or maybe she simply isn't strong enough to receive their wisdom and she's paying the price of not being enough for them? Not being worthy of her messiah's "unconditional" love? Angel, she got enough of this in the Light World, now she's got two entities breathing down her neck. Extra powerful as a metaphor for religious trauma when you consider Kris as being functionally more of a prophet and yourself as the god in this situation. Because like. You are. If I ever write this into a fic I might just tag you if you're chill with it because I loved the catholic guilt rants so much.

It's been an hour and a half and I am on my phone and my finger hurts because phone evil wants to eat me and also I am running out of perfect haven't-slept-in-over-18-hours clarity so I'm going to. Probably brainrot over my newest obsession in the stupidest way possible. Maybe eat breakfast in an hour because I will evaporate without coffee and it's 7 am anyways. Thank you for an excuse to do this lol I love Noelle so so so much and I don't think about her enough. I'd like to stress i did nothing but write this, with a small break to draw the Noelle enclosed. Anyways I have like. Ten(?) Deltarune fics, about there, maybe more maybe less, not sure and not opening another ao3 tab to check right now. If you wanna check my fics out my user is the same there and also my ao3's linked in my pinned. Frozen Tears is my Noelle centric AU but I might rewrite it because wow I forgot how much I loved Noelle and. Kinda hated writing that fic. All my favorite details of the comic (because it was a comic first, made when my style first turned to what it is now) get lost which is a shame. I was so proud of the single panel of Kris's wallet.

Anyways here's a shitty Noelle for your troubles. Every time I draw her I do it differently I swear and also I haven't drawn her in like. Six months. So.

Fun fact my Tumblr didn't want me to post this post! So it was finished yesterday and it's early so I'm not editing it to remove the time markers

#screaming out of the abyss #Tw catholic guilt #Ig #tw religious trauma #deltarune #noelle holiday #noelle deltarune #Rant #rambles #Thank you for the ask lol I needed that to stay awake apparently #utdr #Deltarune #snowgrave #deltarune spoilers #snowgrave route #abyssal art #Ig?

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oohsocialmediaiscool · 9 months ago

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WELCOME TO THE KRIS-KNIGHT EVIDENCE COMPILATION

Originally, this post was me asking why people didn’t like Kris Knight, but eventually I began looking around for evidence and it resulted in this!

At the very least, I want to convince you that it’s not an impossibility.

Technically still a work in progress. Feel free to contribute evidence, counterpoints, or tell me if I’m coming across as rude.

Orange: Catagories

Red: Hypothetical Debunks

Blue: I am confident in this evidence

Green: I am mostly confident in this evidence

Pink: Completely baseless but possible

(Best Evidence)

Kris is the only person we’ve seen creating a dark fountain.

Kris sleeps during the entire class in chapter 2, which means they were up for a while that night. [setting up and creating the fountain]

(Foreshadowing)

Kris is dressed as a knight in The Dark World.

The images that Queen displays during her speech near the end of chapter 2 are of a knife creating the dark fountain.

(Miscellaneous Evidence)

Toby Fox (discussing LIVE A LIVE) said this:

I don’t know anything about LIVE A LIVE but I think this is very good evidence (I think the entire screenshot is important, but the underlined sentence is what initially piqued my interest.)

(Debunking the Debunks)

“Kris just wanted some pie.”

They look to be in extreme pain when pulling out the soul, and as much of a gremlin as Kris is, doing that just for the pie is excessive.

If all they did was eat the pie that night then they shouldn’t be THAT sleepy. It probably took a while to eat but was it enough time to make Kris tired enough to sleep through the ENTIRE class?

“Kris couldn’t have made it to the library within the night at their pace.”

I tested this in game. I tried to match the cutscene Kris’ pace to the best I could. It took me 3:10 mins to get from the center of the bedroom to the computer lab door. Let’s say I was going too fast, so we’ll double that time. 6:20 minutes to get to the library. The trip back would take around the same time so double that again, 12:40. Plenty of time.

At the end of chapter 3 the fountain doesn’t immediately create a dark world, so it’s likely Kris could’ve left the library before the Cyber World was opened.

“How did nobody see them going to the library?”

It’s the middle of the night so most people are probably asleep.

The townspeople don’t know much about humans and Kris is already considered weird so if they saw them they’d probably think this is a normal human thing or just Kris being Kris.

“How would Kris get into the library in the middle of the night?”

Undyne and Alphys both talk about how there’s never any crime. People probably feel safe enough to not lock the doors of their businesses at night.

In fact, the school is a great example of this! Even after the school day is over the doors are still unlocked.

“Noelle and Berdly were in the library when the Dark Fountain was created.”

Alright, this counter-point has a lot of variations. The counterpoints will be represented with PURPLE instead of red. W.I.P and not as well made as the rest.

“Their books were already laid out in the table and open!”

Their books were not open. I don’t know why people think that. (I need to put image of books here)

As for why they’re stacked on the table… I don’t really know. I don’t think they became Darkners, nor were they in Noelle’s inventory. Maybe Berdly’s homework attack? We still don’t really know enough about how Dark Worlds work so it’s not conclusive enough evidence.

Regardless, why would these books, which aren’t even brought attention to, be THE evidence to take down multiple knight theories? It’s a huge stretch.

“The Knight was hiding in the closet!”

The line about a large person being able to fit inside is very vague. It could mean so many things! Spamton NEO, Giga Queen, Berdly’s body…

That’s… a really bad plan. If anyone opens the closet they’re immediately going to find The Knight, holding a weapon. Then The Knight is either cornered or have to attack whoever sees them, regardless, bringing attention to themself.

Not counter-evidence but… That’s terrifying, even if it’s a bad plan. The idea that someone was hiding in the closet wielding a blade waiting for the perfect moment to strike.

“Ralsei said he “felt a dark presence and hurried over”. If the fountain was created earlier why didn’t Ralsei go then?”

If the fountain was created just after Kris and Susie left Castle Town then the Knight would have nowhere to go without being seen. There’s a traffic jam blocking off the rest of the town.

He doesn’t necessarily say that the presence was a fountain. I assume he is talking about the fountain, but still.

He could be lying.

Jeez it’s hard to convey these thoughts in a way that makes sense.

(SOURCES)

1. LIVE A LIVE conversation

(EDITS)

EDIT: Added 1 more category and 1 more evidence.

EDIT 2: Added images to accompany some evidence. (I cannot figure out how to make them smaller)

EDIT 3: Removed some less substantial evidence and replaced it with something better. Reworded some things.

EDIT 4: Reworded some things and completely revised the introduction.

EDIT 5: Added new counterpoint(s).

#deltarune #deltarune kris #kris deltarune #kris dreemurr #the knight deltarune

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patchwork-crow-writes · 10 months ago

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Deltarune is about many things - about growing up, about fantasy and reality, about games and how we as players interact with them... but it's also about legacy.

Yes, in the big meta sense, it's about how this game is following up from Undertale, one of the most beloved and successful indie RPGs of all time. But also you have Kris learning to live outside of Asriel's shadow, you have Noelle struggling to cope with her sister's disappearance and her father's illness, Susie flailing around for a foothold in a new town with peers who don't like her very much, Berdly doing his utmost to live up to his "smart genius" label so he can actually be known for something.

You have Ralsei who finds himself at a crossroads between fulfilling a predetermined prophecy to save the world, and forging his own identity separate from his willingness to serve any "higher" authority. You have King, a ruler who became a tyrant so that his people could be free.

You also have Alphys, struggling to fill the rather large boots of her predecessor, Gerson Boom, who had a career in smithing, wrote a series of hit fantasy novels, and was an excellent teacher according to his son Alvin. (I wanna talk more about this, but it's going in its own post because of reasons)

A character's legacy, the thing that they will be known for, the thing they struggle to actualise so that people will like and accept them, can be a powerful driving-force, giving them agency to fulfill their ambitions. But that same legacy can also be a millstone, forcing them onto a narrowly-defined path through life, burdening them with the crushing weight of others' expectations, and trapping them into a version of themselves they may not wish to be.

Legacy can be difficult to escape from, perhaps even impossible in some cases. It can feel like there's no other choice but to press onward, to be what others want or expect from you, to do what you are told, to try and live up to a golden predecessor who could do no wrong in the eyes of their admirers. It can feel like what you want, what you choose for yourself, doesn't actually matter, because in many ways that choice has already been made for you. And to rebel against that choice risks disappointing the people closest to you, risks losing your reputation, risks the comfort of a predictable path forward, and in extreme cases risks losing your own sense of identity.

I think this theme is going to continue to develop throughout Deltarune, and I very much look forward to seeing how it all plays out!

#rambling #Deltarune #analysis #theory #legacy #expectations #fate and destiny #your choices don't matter

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legandairy-horror · 7 months ago

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Headcannons about how the Lightner crew show affection for each other because I can't stop imagining these dorks as the world's most confusing and disastrous polycule

Kris

Feral animal in all things, including relationships. Is very particular when it comes to physical touch and other displays of affection. Instead they give out cool rocks and other shiny things to people they like/care. Has had a crush on every person in their class at one point or another and simultaneously refuses to acknowledge it and refuses to move on. Subconsciously uses their pranking and general weirdness as an excuse to get closer to people without having to admit that they like being around them

Susie

That one "Excuse me, they asked for no pickles" meme. Is willing to commit any crime for the people they care about. Absolutely refuses to acknowledge the fact that they have feelings for anyone even after going out on several dates with them. Not helped by poor self-worth issues making he doubt anyone actually liking her let alone romantic feelings. Deeply infatuated with Noelle, strong feelings for Kris. Complicated for Catti (started out real rough but thinks dark magic is sick as fuck)

Noelle

Lesbiab. Lasbein. Girls. Has such a low self-image of herself and tries so unbelievable hard to hide how weird she is that she just does not realize that every girl in class has been actively trying to date her and just assumes that they're all being nice. Not helped by some lingering Heteronormativity makes her just default to "Ah yes, boys and girls date, that's how that works".

Berdly

I cannot emphasize just how performative he views relationship. Raised on a healthy diet of Heteronormativity and Societal expectations he understands every relationship through that lens. "Of course the guy and girl get together in the end, that's just 'how it works'". Except it's not how it works, because people are often a lot more then what society expects from them. And he just never realized that there might be other options, that love isn't this destined thing that everyone one day accepts like fucking ex-caliber. That he doesn't have to do this if we doesn't want to. That he can just be friends with people instead of having to worry about all this forced bullshit. Yes I am head-cannoning Berdly as closeted aro/ace and there is nothing you can do to stop me.

Catti

Developed a crush on Kris & Noelle while she was teaching them both magic and never fully got over it. Also had somewhat of a friendship while they were younger and thus unjustly blames herself for not doing more to help them after Dess's disappearance and Kris's Possession. Combined with typical teen angst of "My parents are humiliating me by their mere existence." and she's developed a very distant and detached form of love. a very "I'm fine sacrificing my happiness if it means they keep their happiness" kinda mentality. Reason she doesn't get along with Susie at first is because she subconsciously projects a lot of her own anxieties and fear onto her leading to a lot of hostility at first.

Jockington

Token straight and is thus the only remotely competent person here. Serves as the supportive rock for everyone and especially Catti. The first and mostly likely person on the team to suggest the completely reasonable advice of "have you tried talking to them?" and "you're probably overthinking this". It's part of why Catti fell in love with him, because he's the only one here who would willing and readily admit that he cares for someone.

Bonus Monster Kid & Snowy meme (not at all serious)

"Have you ever been walking down the street with your best bro and while you're walking you accidentally touch hands? You think to yourself - That was weird, but I'm not gay. - You are, you are gay". Source

#deltarune #utdr #kris deltarune #susie deltarune #noelle holiday #berdly #catti deltarune #jockington #polycule ship #polycule #polycule gang #like I cannot understate just how important it is to me all that of these kids *suck* so much #that they are all just *awful* at being even slightly normal about anything #like I just need them all to be like that one meme that's like “thank god I'm the only normal one here” except in reverse #they all think they're the weird one when no they're ALL the weird one #my stuff

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trg-deltarune-quotes · 1 year ago

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All the Lightners are smart in their own way: Noelle and Berdly

Noelle is the smartest among the group by a long shot. While her emotional intelligence is a bit low, mostly because she's not all that open about her honest feelings which leads to her being a yes man half the time.

Or sugarcoating her feelings to not come off as rude to other people.

Even when doing either of those things would help out in not miscommunicating anything.

She makes up for it with her quick wits.

She’s so smart that she comes up with a solution that quickens the pace of one of the puzzles.

So yeah, Noelle is the smartest out of all of them. Even Berdly admits it.

Speaking of the bluebird, he’s not as dumb as he paints himself as. Yes his emotional intelligence is the lowest among the group but he does get some stuff right.

His assessment on Noelle, while a bit rude, is not unfounded.

This is what happens at the very first mouse puzzle.

He even notices that she has romantic feelings.

But the problem lies with what he says next.

By itself it’s not so bad, in fact it's really sweet of him, but he’s not talking about Susie.

He’s talking about himself.

Berdly’s not that great at identifying why they have those feelings or whos those feelings are towards.

He thinks Noelle is shy and reserved because she has stage fright and not because of the month they had to spell at the spelling bee.

And he thinks Susie has a crush on him because she was nice to him when he opened up to her and because she's TRUE gamer as well.

Granted he has his feelings of friendship confused for love.

This is mostly stemming from his low self-esteem.

Believing himself to be worthless unless he could prove himself.

And while he might not be as emotionally intelligent as Susie or as smart as Noelle he is a great organizer and planner.

When Berdly works with the team to save Noelle, he comes up with a plan that accounts for the strength of all the team members of the fun gang.

Kris is unpredictable, you never know how or what they're gonna do, having them distract Queen makes sense. Susie is the muscle of the group able to dish out pain like it’s nothin so having her escort Noelle also makes sense. And finally Berdly’s memory of the palace makes him a reliable source for where to go.

That’s another thing about him; he has a really good memory.

He doesn’t just remember big words, he remembers the people who created his statue and gets their help to build the giant robot.

So yeah, Berdly is a smart kid as well.

The biggest question now is why do they do dumb stuff when the situation is less goofy and a bit more serious? The answer is simple. They are EXTREMELY poor communicators. Kris doesn't want to have a serious talk, Noelle is too afraid to speak her mind, Susie was quite a nasty bully before her adventure in the dark world, and Berdly jumps to conclusions a lot. And all these issues stem from their deep rooted insecurities so of course they’re gonna make dumb decisions. They don’t want to hurt their feelings, or act like they don’t care about them, hell they even might pretend they don’t care when they really really do just to protect not only themselves but those they care about. They’re just a bunch of teenagers trying to navigate the complex web that is relationships.

Communication is a really prevalent theme in this game. One in which I feel will get explored more in the light world rather than the dark world. Because what better place to talk about your issues than in your own world? Might not be as fun as a dark world adventure but that doesn’t mean they can’t create their own fun with friends. They can use the dark world as a foundation to forge stronger bonds and help each other out. After all, just because they dreamed of it doesn't mean they can’t learn from it.

It’s just like what Susie said at the end of the ferris wheel ride.

#utdr #deltarune #character analysis #kris dreemurr #berdly #noelle holiday #susie #kris deltarune #berdly deltarune #noelle deltarune #susie deltarune #Queen deltarune #sweet cap’n cakes #deltarune analysis

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ghossttoast · 2 months ago

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Are we connected?

Chapter two: Lesbians and Horrors beyond our comprehension

A/N: like all of chapter two gets skipped here because i couldnt figure out how to change it enough that it would be interesting to write but we're offically away from canon so i can do whatever i want!!! (which should hopefully mean longer chapters :^)

previous next

It was dark, really dark, like going into a cave and turning off all the lights, pitch black. Kris wasn't sure where exactly they were, or if they really were anywhere at all.

“Where…” A voice spoke out, “Where am I? Hello…? Anyone…? Is… is anybody out there…?” It sounded vaguely familiar, but not enough so that Kris could put a name to it, “Someone!? Anyone!? Can anyone hear me!?” It was scratchy, the voice strained as it yelled like it hadn't spoken in a long time, “… It's dark. It's so dark here. Someone, anyone, if you can hear me…” it trailed off sounding defeated, “Say something… please…”

“Kris, did you eat all of the pie!?” a much more familiar voice cut through, causing Kris to groan as they slowly opened their eyes, “It is your knife in the empty tin is it not!? Oh Kris… am I going to have to lock the oven again?” She laughed, “Well hurry out of bed, it is time for school” She informed them, a laugh remaining in her voice as she spoke.

Kris slowly pulled themself out of bed shortly after their mother left, yawning as they begrudgingly tried to fight any remaining sleepiness.

“Up and at em Mx Dreemurr, it is time to rise and grind!” A, annoying in their opinion, cut through, “Woo-hoo it's time for… education n stuff, yeah!” it finished as Kris felt their limbs move on their own, just as they had been doing since yesterday.

₊˚ ‿︵‿︵‿︵୨୧ · · ♡ · · ୨୧‿︵‿︵‿︵ ˚₊

Noelle hummed Christmas carols as she brushed her hair, smiling at herself in the mirror once she finished. She checked herself over, ensuring nothing was out of place with her outfit, before turning back to her desk and staring at the lunchbox sitting there.

The lunchbox she made for Susie.

Noelle felt her face heat up as she actually thought about it.

What was she doing?

Is this crazy?

Gosh, Susie is probably gonna make fun of her, and laugh… with those big teeth of hers as she pushes her over and…

What was she thinking about again?

Right, lunchbox! It’ll probably be fine, Kris said she liked chalk, and when have they ever lied to her?

Okay, when have they ever lied to her and not came clean relatively shortly after? If she doesn't actually eat chalk, then Noelle can play it off like she wanted to help out after the two of them came back empty-handed yesterday. Noelle isn't to worried, Susie’s never messed with her before (for some reason) plus Kris was with her all day yesterday, and they came back fine, if a bit more talkative than usual.

Actually, that was really weird. Kris went out of their way to visit Noelle’s dad at the hospital, apparently without their mom telling them to, and then start chatting up a storm with her outside of her house. Even before that, they’d wandered around class talking to literally everyone, including their teacher, normally they would go straight to their desk and pass out for half the class (how they were passing was honestly a total mystery). Maybe something happened? As much as it sucks to admit it, Noelle doubts they were anywhere near close enough anymore for Kris to update her if there had been something.

Well, that just makes Noelle more sure! Kris and Susie were paired together, so she could ask the two of them to join her and Berdly for a group study session. It’s not like either of them could fault her for wanting to expand her educational horizons, she can rekindle her friendship with Kris and work on starting a relationship with Susie. Maybe they’ve just changed a bit, grown up and matured. Gosh, Noelle honestly hopes that they haven't changed too much.

With her mind made up, Noelle shoved the chalk filled lunch box in her bag before she had time to get scared and back out before dashing out the door and heading towards school.

₊˚ ‿︵‿︵‿︵୨୧ · · ♡ · · ୨୧‿︵‿︵‿︵ ˚₊

Today was… okay. Kris got to see Noelle again, that was nice. Kris got to spend more time with Susie, that was fun. Kris saw Ralsei again, that was all right. Kris had hung out with Berdly for a bit, that was entertaining. Kris cut a puppet’s strings, and it was unable to stand without the support, that was uncomfortable. Kris had wandered around town, talking to everyone they could, just as they had yesterday, that was irritating.

“Okay so” The Player started, speaking directly to them rather than the general commentary it seemed to enjoy, “I need you to do me a super totally huge favor that if things go how I need them to well benefit both of us” It explained, its voice getting higher and faster as it spoke.

What would it want them to do that it can't just make them do?

“…You think you could uh not make a dark fountain in your living room, pretty please?” It finished

Oh, right, it knows how today goes.

“Look, I don't know how to explain this, but I kinda need to break the timeline a bit and this is the nicest way I can do it- I mean, you even hearing me means something is definitely weird like I really have no idea how this is even- point is dark fountain getting is how the ch… day is supposed to end and uh,” It paused for a moment “I just would really like to avoid the direct consequences of that,” It explained, really unconvincingly, if it was going to keep stuff from them, it should have the decency not be so obvious about it.

They’re still going to make the fountain, they have no reason to help this thing.

That resulted in what sounded like an annoyed sigh from the soul. “Kris, I’m finding a way to mess stuff up enough that I can keep playing, you not making the fountain is easy and simple, and no one gets hurt, I’m being moral here!” It shouted, making Kris glad they were the only one that could actually hear the thing (it had tested extensively). It cleared its throat (did it have one?) And hovered above ‘yes’ in the option box that had appeared, “This is the best option for both of us and I will go back and do the other way if you screw this up for me.” it warned with a strained calm in its tone before selecting yes.

Kris sighed to themself as they ran the tap and washed their hands, there was an underlying threat and this wasn't the hill to die on. It had been good with sparing so far, but there was always the option for it to cause harm, and they didn't want to risk it.

“Yay! Pleasure doing business with you” Kris wished they could shatter their soul without literally killing themself, “You should sit down, Toriel and Susie hanging out is both cute and potentially important later I don't wanna mess stuff up too much” it’s tone was back to the uncomfortably cheerful one it typically held and Kris wasn't sure if this was any better.

Kris listened to Susie and their mother joke around in the kitchen, they were glad that the two were getting along. Once it sounded like the two of them were done, Kris wandered back out to meet them, their mom invited Susie to stay, to which she agreed, the two messing around for a bit before eventually passing out on their couch. Well Susie passed out, Kris had been taking a bit longer, mostly because a certain someone wouldn't shut up.

“Agh, this is so hype, actually. I’m excited. Are you excited? Probably not but you should be” It rambled “Oh shoot uh” it cut itself off “What are you doing…?” it muttered under its breath, about what Kris has no clue, they hadn't noticed any changes which did make them uncomfortable to think something they couldn't see was going wrong “Wait, no, son of a-”

And then it was gone

#deltarune #kris deltarune #deltarune player #noelle deltarune #noelle holiday #kris dreemurr

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