#like yeah partly credited for the inciting incident or whatever but this aint about them

[kooki914]

I have to say I like that snowgrave analysis video. I love how you point out how noelle inherent he's mom coldness and her dad's complacency. However, I do think kris inherent their parents own flaws despite not trying to become them. Where given some dialogue that toriel was strict and controlling what asriel and kris did until recently. I mean, toriel made asriel go to church every day. Also toriel can have very authorian and harsh tone when she angry(granted it asgore not letting go). There Asgore being clingy and nit letting go on things. Sounds similar to kris-soul in snowgrave.

Hoo boy. I'm glad you liked the video but I'm not going to let this Toriel slander slide. Very long tangent under the read-more.

TL;DR: Toriel isn't a mean or harsh, especially not as a parent, and the way she acts towards Asgore is more than justified actually.

In my video, I made it VERY clear that I think the traits Kris is most mimicking are Asgore's, if unintentionally. Clinginess, constantly appealing to a sense of nostalgia and romance, and most importantly for the transactional analysis, constantly speaking from the Parent or Adult ego state to mask that they're acting on the needs of the Child state (impulsivity, loneliness, playfulness, emotional demands). Kris has abandonment issues similar to Asgore but more severe, and Kris isn't a people-pleaser like their father is - ergo, if we push them hard enough, they start acting manipulative in order to not be "left behind" again.

Toriel is, not only mature enough to properly use her Adult and Parent states, but also not really that strict at all? She's reactionary and can hold a grudge (mostly for petty things), but take a genuine look at the way she TALKS to Kris. She has a gripe with something they did for a few seconds before laughing it off (like in the case of their pie-eating) or being swayed to let them off the hook (exiting the school in ch1). Sure, these can still be seen as catastrophic or mocking from the point of view of a kid or a teenager like Kris is, but, like... they'll grow out of that. As an audience, we aren't meant to understand those scenes as Displays Of Harsh Parenting™, like we are for moments like Noelle being afraid of her mother or of Queen. Toriel is really lenient with Kris in practice, to the point I'd argue she's TOO lenient even about things like their depressive habits and lack of ambition.

She wants to ground them but when they mentioned they made a friend she drops it immediately. How is that authoritative? She took Asriel to church every day for only like a week after he had his first kiss because she's a paranoid christian worried about him. How is that HARSH? It's barely even a real punishment for Asriel, since he LIKES church, based on all the stuff under his bed and the anecdotes we get from Alvin (contrasted to Kris who only seemed to tolerate church for Fruit Juice). I don't mean to sound condescending, but if you think the way Toriel parents her kids is "harsh" I don't think you've ever actually met a mean or abusive parent.

(Tying this into a different theory of mine, the way Queen acts towards Kris showcases this too, as she's never strict or mean with them like she is with Noelle, Berdly or Ralsei. She treats them like an equal and like a fun person to be around while drunk, which is Not Good but also isn't a strict or mean parental personality. The worst of Toriel's parenting is not taking Kris' issues seriously enough and treating them with maturity before they've fully grown up and ready for that. I assume this is because Asriel's reached that level of maturity and Toriel subconsciously assumes the same applies to Kris. It be like that with younger siblings sometimes.)

Toriel can be a bit overbearing and smother her kids with affection (wanted or not), maybe a little deaf to their real needs, but NONE of that makes her a strict parent. And, maybe more importantly for this discussion, NONE of that is seen in the way Kris acts during the Snowgrave route.

Kris doesn't smother Noelle with affection, they don't make light of things she's done, they don't act overly forgiving of her transgressions, and they Certainly Don't Cave at her push-back. All of these things CAN be spun into an abusive or unhealthy dynamic for a weird route, but they weren't, deliberately so. I want you to keep in mind, Toriel is dismissive of Asgore NOW, but it's HEAVILY hinted that he slept on her couch for a really, REALLY long time after the divorce. That's not the kind of thing someone who's "authoritarian and harsh" would allow to happen. Toriel gave chance after chance to let Asgore out slowly and gently, but he refused to leave, he HAD to be kicked out. This is the OPPOSITE to what we see Kris doing in the Snowgrave route to Noelle - they're pushing and pushing and pushing and ANY sign of gentleness or compromise ends the route.

Again, I think Kris is very much embodying the Critical Parent rather than the Nurturing Parent they were raised with, exactly because of this. Even Asgore wouldn't push someone around like that, but KRIS WOULD, when backed into a corner. They're exhibiting the worst traits of their dad, while actively suppressing all the good traits their mother tried to teach them. It tracks in a psychological sense too - when you have two parents of opposite sexes, you're more likely to mimic the behaviors of the one that courted the sex you're attracted to (eg. if you're a striaght woman you're likely to act more like your mom, if you're a lesbian you're more likely to act like your dad, the ladder of which is (fun fact) seen with Noelle in general). In the Snowgrave route, Kris is romantically set up with Noelle, therefore they're mimicking the traits of the parent that courted a woman - and they're doing it without even noticing (as most of us do, this shit is hard-wired in some deep dark crevice of the human mind and even I get baffled when I notice it happening on accident).

I genuinely hate this "Toriel is mean and harsh" angle people try to take with her character for... Having A Spine, essentially. She's mean to Asgore and it's the kind of meanness that's not only warranted but also the result of a LONG time of enduring bullshit hoping it'll pass. God forbid a woman ever set boundaries, right? Because that's literally the only thing she did with him. I can't NOT acknowledge the underlying misogyny that plagues this sort of character assassination. When you look at the wider context, you see that Toriel is genuinely too quick to put other's needs before her own to her own detriment, and the current state of her and Asgore's strained acquaintanceship is just the aftermath of enduring way, way too much from someone trying to appeal to emotions that aren't even there. AND YET people frame it as her being ~mean~ and ~rude~ to Poow Widdle Asgowe UwU who's a grown man breaking his own dumbass heart because he's too obsessed with the past to leave his ex the fuck alone.

You all know me. You all know I love Asgore and would die for him. But for the love of fucking god, it is NOT Toriel's responsibility to coddle him and prioritise his feelings at every turn, ESPECIALLY when he's FAILING to consider HERS. He is a pitiable jackass and genuinely downtrodden, but that is not his ex wife's problem. She should not have to constantly worry about the feelings of a man she's not even with anymore. She shouldn't need to do a whole song and dance to let him down easy when he gives her flowers for the billionth time that she will always throw out. I hate that I have to type this out at all because some people just Don't Get their dynamic, being too blinded by the fact that Toriel DARED to stand up for herself and the guy she stood up to was SAD about it. Like come the fuck on.

What's left of their relationship isn't healthy, but it isn't unhealthy in the same way Kris and Noelle's Snowgrave dynamic is, and the broken Dreemurr household isn't wholly Toriel's fault. Asgore is the one making things worse by refusing to let go of her and move on - things probably would've been considerably better for everyone if he actually took the divorce seriously. Kris has a now nonexistent relationship with their dad because of the cumulative effect of Asgore constantly hitting on Toriel instead of doing literally anything else (like, gee I dunno, actually fixing his living situation, or even trying to bond with Kris without it involving Toriel or Asriel somehow), and Toriel shutting Asgore out because she doesn't see any other way out of having to deal with his bullshit (she is trying to avoid confrontation without bending over backwards to appeal to his emotions for the umpteenth time, and part of that involves not actively connecting Kris with Asgore because he's inevitably going to use them as a way to reach her, like we see him doing in ch1).

Yes, they're both flawed in their approaches, but I cannot in good faith let people call Toriel MEAN for what is essentially just sweeping issues under the rug because she's tired of constantly being bombarded by them. She's flawed in a lot of ways, but you are actively mischaracterising those flaws by describing her the way you did.

Is it kind of weird and nonsensical that she took Asriel to church over something as small as a kiss? Yeah, the game actively points that out. It is HARSH that she wanted to ground Kris at the end of chapter 1? No, not at all, because they essentially disappeared for an entire day without telling her. And I keep bringing up these two scenes in particular because I can't think of any other context in which her parenting can be seen as overly strict, and both of the examples are laughable. Toriel isn't a perfect mother, but there is no such thing as a perfect mother, and I think people should stop having double standards towards female characters in specific, especially concerning setting boundaries or not being completely devoted to other people's emotions.

To add a tangent to this tangent in order to wrap up the tangent, I actually kind of see this happening with Susie to an extent too, where some people in the fandom PRAISE her constantly for asking Kris if they're okay and being worried about them and Noelle. Like, yes, those ARE good traits and it shows she's a good friend, but why are THOSE the traits she's being complemented on? Why is THAT what people point to when they say she's a good person? Is it not equally as noteworthy that she's brave and doesn't take direction from anyone, not even the player? Isn't it more important to her wider characterisation that she's so out-of-the-box that she pushes other people out of their boxes, too? Isn't is clear she's much better at physical protection than any kind of emotional comfort, and why isn't THAT being complemented and praised about her?

Why is that capacity to be emotionally available what people applaud in all female characters, without exception? And why are those women and girls so heavily demonized when that emotional availability is taken away, like in Toriel's case?

And, in conclusion, I believe Spadesgore Tuffet must be canonised.