#and had no idea what he was doing
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pam and lee, from kids to young adults :3 they didn’t always get along, but the years helped 💗
pam and lee in the first ones are around 10-12 (pam’s actually technically older tho so she’d be like 12 while lee is like 10)
and in the second one they are like 17-20
(pam ofc still being the oldest she’s probably 19-20 while lee is like 17-18, but her genetics were kind of dookie so she didn’t really grow much..very sad)
the little hurken babies grow up so fast 🥺
#invader zim#invaderzim#iz#ocs#irken oc#hurken oc#they are basically zims children 💀#pam being biologically related to gaz and zim and lee being dib and zim#and before you ask#they were created in a lab by a very#unskilled alien named zim#who was very much an idiot#and had no idea what he was doing#but he was also sad which fuels his stupidity#digital art#my art
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my lovely son waking me up to tell me he threw up.
us waking up my wonderful butlerfather to tell him he threw up.
#i needed to draw jason with glowing eyes as the mom i threw up meme but i thought it would be funny if bruce had no idea what to do#so hence alfred he threw up#jason todd#bruce wayne#red hood#batman#alfred mention#dc fanart#ash's doodlings
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Imagen how entertaining it would be if these 2 interact. And I'm a fan of possessive/jealous/protective Stolas (Which I don't see enough of <(_ _)>)
#helluva boss#Stolitz#Stolas#Blitz#blitzø#emberlynn pinkle#Honestly had no idea what to do with the coloring#So I just went crazy. Tried stuff and made them work#OK but this oddly gave me angsty idea#Of Stolas trying to use his magic out of habit/instinct#Only for him to be reminded that he CAN'T#Reopening that wound over and over#How did this sad thought come from a silly drawing???#Fun fact: I tried to use Stolas clothes from the trailer but couldn't tell if he's wearing pants.#So I just drew him in a fancy ones.#Kido art#My art#My stuff
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Ayo 😳
#fashion disaster#sanji must have dressed him up like this#I sadly had to cover my anatomy practice with cloths but hey#I had no idea what I was doing with the shading but it turned out fine#roronoa zoro#one piece#zoro pre time skip#he looks so serious and for what#o0kawaii0o#redraw
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hi! i was thinking if you could write an older!boyfriend simon x reader BUT reader is john price's daughter so is kinda of a forbidden and secret relationship !!!! they've been dating for a long time now until john finds out !!!!!
18+
"how is she?"
"doing well, john. but you don't have to worry about her anymore, you know that right? she's not yours to worry about."
"she is mine. i know she's not..." john huffs. "she may not be blood, but she's mine, yeah? so when i ask 'ow she is, you tell me, kate. can we agree on that?"
"sure, john. she's in georgia. her russian got very good. if you want to know my honest opinion, i think she'll be one of my best."
"well...i wouldn't stand for anythin' less."
"john?"
that voice is music to him. he turns, taking his hat off, and he laughs, genuinely, when he sees you. his whole face lights up, and you make your way to him. it's been months since you've seen him in person--even though he makes you send him constant updates about what you're doing and where you are, you find yourself missing this man and the warmth he gives off whenever you are in his proximity.
he's always looked at you so kindly. he's always taken care of you. whenever you pick up the phone, he's always answered.
"'ello, bug."
he crushes you in a warm hug. he puts a hand on the back of your neck and holds you to his chest, and the tension in his shoulders deflates now that he has you with him.
"hi, john. miss me?"
"well...you were the only one with sense in my house."
"you live alone, john."
"aye."
he pours you a hot cup of tea before he makes you tell him all about your new posting. most of it is classified, and you tell him that, but his face lights up when you talk about the new skills you're learning and all the opportunities that kate is giving you. his face scrunches a little when you talk about the more dangerous ops, but john never has the same regard for his own life.
the mess hall gets busy once dinner time rolls around. his men were not expecting you, and that much is clear when they see their captain even enjoying a meal in public and not secluded in his office. you smile at his sergeants, but when your gaze lingers a little longer on the doors, johnny just nudges you with his elbow.
"miss the big guy?"
"what? no."
"he had a long night last night," he wiggles his eyebrows at gaz, who just laughs a little. "i might need to try the whole brooding, scary look LT has got on. attracts the most bonnie things, fuckin' christ."
your plate flies when you stab at your food too hard. the cutlery clatters as it hits the floor, and you jump a little, swallowing.
"are you alright, bug?"
"huh? yeah, oh...yeah, just...fucking clumsy. i...i'm gonna...find the toilet."
the blood is rushing in your ears as you make your way out. you're vibrating, hot inside, and you feel him before you see him, even in your anger.
when he pulls you into the shadow of a nearby supply closet, you swipe the blade out of your boot and hold it up against his throat. even through the mask, the blade bites, and he hisses as you hold him up against the wall there.
"don't fucking touch me," you snarl, and ghost's eyes are bright and alive as he holds his hands up defensively.
"wot--"
"and don't what me," you snap. "actually, don't fucking talk at all, you cheating, manipulative, british piece of shit--"
"look so pretty," he murmurs, tilting his head to the side. "did you do y'r hair, baby?"
"i will kill you."
"'s olright. last thing i see'll be you."
"i'm not fucking kidding, simon!"
he bends a little, tilting his head, and you breathe out through your nose as he leans his forehead against yours.
"reckon ya spoke t'johnny."
you scoff. "told me all about your winnings last night, lieutenant."
"was no winnings, love, don't be so fuckin' naïve." simon swipes at the handle of the blade, curling his gloved fingers around your wrist and forcing it away from him. "y'r just mad cause y'r cunt missed me."
"don't flatter yourself, asshole."
"so if i pull your knickers down right now, y'won't be drippin', swee'eart?"
"that's irrelevant."
"'s not. turn around and bend over."
simon's sorry, so he eats your pussy from behind. he gets down on his knees, and the crack of them satisfies you immensely, up until you feel his mouth between your cheeks, tongue slicking up your folds. you brace yourself against the wall, palms flat against the concrete as he puts two gloved hands against your ass and spreads you wide to fit himself nicely there. he hums, groans, makes you whine as he slurps obscenely into your cunt, laving at the drip of you until the taste of you floods his mouth.
"simon..." you whimper. "tell me i-it's not true."
he presses a wet kiss to your ass, biting it firm.
"'s not true, love. promise."
"fuck your promises," you sniffle. "you're a professional liar."
"tha' 'ow it's gonna be, innit? not gonna trust me? believe me?"
you rest your forehead against the cool wall, and the shadow of him envelopes you when he stands. he grunts a little as he gets to his feet. his big hands squeeze at the curve of your waist, and you close your eyes when you feel his breath against your neck.
"i'm sorry, simon."
"for wot?"
"i just...i like you so much. so much."
"come 'ere," he murmurs in your ear. he pulls your hips back, pressing your ass against his pelvis, and you dig your nails into the wall when you hear his belt buckle and zipper. "my pretty girl. my pretty, pretty girl."
"i missed you s-so much, simon."
"i know, love. quiet now. someone'll hear."
it's not the worst place you've fucked. you've snuck quickies in the rec room. behind the mess hall. met up in filthy gas station toilets, fallen into the backseat of a car in the parking lot of numerous military bases. even once, you deigned to suck his dick in his office, and you had to hide behind his couch when john came in to ask about an op.
john had a rule. his men were off-limits. he should've thought about that before he hired a man straight out of your wet dreams for his stupid fucking task force.
you're weak. and simon is a man.
inevitable.
you're a mile into pound-town when someone interrupts. simon is cock-deep inside of you, pelvis up against your ass, one hand braced around your throat and the other squeezing your ass. your eyes are rolled back into your head, and there's drooling coming out of your mouth. it's hot, disgusting, filthy to let him have you like this, but it's been weeks since you've seen him, and the phone calls aren't enough.
you love talking to him. you love when he talks to you. he'll never be annoying to you, you'll never get tired of him, but the distances hurts. you want simon to be all around you--inside of you, against you, his voice in your ear and his mouth against yours and his warmth your only sheet, but you can't bring yourself to do more than this.
you're too afraid of disappointing people. you're too scared of simon's rejection. if your relationship is nothing but fun, nothing but sex, you can pretend it isn't real, but you're just lying to yourself now.
you babble, and it sounds like love, but then the hallway light blinds you, and familiar blue eyes nearly kill you.
"jesus christ!"
simon puts his body in front of yours to cover you, using a harsh boot to kick the door closed. you squeak, covering your face with your hands, and you groan audibly as simon pants against your back.
"fuck--" you gasp. "oh...fuck, fuck, fuck!"
simon buries his face into the crook of your neck, laughing a little.
"bloody hell," he breathes. "reckon we're fucked, huh, love?"
"it's not funny, simon! we're in so much trouble!"
"well..." he squeezes your throat gently, tilting your head back. "could still finish. no sense in pretendin' now."
"you are not going to come when he's probably waiting for us outside."
"i'm balls deep in my favorite girl," simon mutters. "could come just fine. just say the word."
"you're disgusting."
"mmm..." simon squeezes your hips. "keep talkin'. i like when y'talk t'me like tha'."
"fucking asshole."
"yeah...yeah."
"you stupid, immature, unhinged pain in my ass--"
"fuck."
well.
you're definitely never leaving this room.
#you are never allowed to come back to base :D#i had no idea how to end this#but i think its so canon that once simon is in deep shit#what's the point in pretending#he would totally be like “well might as well just finish”#cause simon doesn't do anything half ASSED ok especially being with his girl#anyways#simon ghost riley#simon riley#simon ghost riley x reader#simon riley x reader#simon riley x you#ghost mw2#ghost cod#ghost call of duty#ghost mwii#ghost x reader#cod#call of duty#simon riley smut#simon ghost riley smut#simon thoughts
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some quick jjk eye paintings
#my art#jujutsu kaisen#jjk#megumi fushiguro#yuji itadori#nobara kugisaki#yuta okkotsu#gojo satoru#geto suguru#ryoumen sukuna#fanart#jjk fanart#tagging everyone feels like it took longer than the actual painting my god#i believe ive gone on record waxing poetic about how i love lower eyelids and how i could paint them fr hours#so i put my money where my mouth is and thats what i did today . self care :)#i had a cool idea fr gojo where i wanted to do like an abberated effect to show 2 extra sets of eyes#but god it looked cluttered and awful no matter what layer mode i put it on sdgdgjsdg#settled fr chromatic abberation on th irises :')#quickish painting but i am ! happy !#very proud also of the different eye shapes i ws able to achieve while keeping them consistently sized#was worried abt geto there fr a sec#but tbh he turned out to be one of my favs ????? surprised myself#anyway this is my love letter to eye skin <3 i love u lower eyelid folds mwah <3
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clark kent sure looks different now
#bang chan#stray kids#skz#~#createskz#staydaily#bystay#skzco#channiesnet#dailyminchan#dreamytag#userlau#kiwitracks#vilmatrack#thestephtag#usersun#usersa#mimotag#tuserchrissy#uservivii#fuck my stupid baka life im killing myself why would he do this to me why would he look like this outside the mv#and then. And then.#im gonna kill myself. anyways.#also i had no idea what the caption this. bye.#girl who is being soooooo normal. <- liar
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Put that thing back or so help me.
[First] Prev <–-> Next
#poorly drawn mdzs#mdzs#wei wuxian#jiang cheng#wen qing#a-yuan#I had a few different ideas for what do for 'JC visits WWX in the burial mounds' but I must say...#JC's genuine baffled outburst at why the hell WWX has a child running around really took me out.#WWX for his credit isn't much of a fatherly figure. More of a 'cool uncle that occasionally plays but has work to do.'#I know it is a common fan headcanon to put WWX as a surrogate parent to A-yuan. It's cute though I don't really see it!#All the Wen remnants and WWX have something a lot more complex than a straightforward found family thing going on.#It certainly isn't a little western nuclear family unit. They are bound by trauma and guilt and they will *not* talk about it.#A-Yuan is the representation of all the children lost to the war. He is also a little seedling that there is hope for the future.#And he is an opportunity for WWX to reconnect with his own displaced childhood.#Right now his rather dismissive of him but we'll get there. Wei Wuxian will have his unhealthy coping mechanism moment with this child.#I sure hope nothing bad happens to them! I hope Jiang Cheng just comes by for a nice visit!
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i'm sure this joke has been done before but i'm new here so now it's my turn -- the bing-ge vs bing-mei extra sure is something huh
#the luo binghes having a normal one#svsss#luo binghe#luo bingge#luo bingmei#shen qingqiu#bingqiu#my art#not actually done the extra yet i had to stop to do this because it was making me laugh#WHO IS THAT OTHER DOG#bingge sure has no idea what's going on but he is prepared to roll with it (derogatory)#meanwhile for bingmei it is On Fucking Sight he is going to KILL HIS DOUBLE and get his shizun back asap#excited to see how this one is going to end#(also election results are coming in and i cannot concentrate on my book i will have a stroke so art and music instead)
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Assorted Gravity Falls doodles!
#Havent posted anything in a few days cause I keep rotating too many ideas in my brain. These are just some wips. Anyway doodle notes! ->#had to draw twink!Bill okay. Being a pretty boy was like Annatar's whole Thing. & OBVIOUSLY I had to draw Celebrimbor & Annatar Billford#As many pointed out on my LOTR comic Ford would have seen the 80s Animated movies! I may do a post on my thoughts(tm) of him watching it#but to tdlr I think he missed Bashki's Movie in movie theatres and watched it with fiddleford in november 1981! :3#Anyhow was thinking about Trans!Fiddleford & the DOOMED T4T potential of Emma-may also being trans hit me like a truck. I have many thought#Stan: Quit worrying Pointdexter. not like Mabel can find ANOTHER annoyingly smart & gruff yet whimsically eccentric Grunkle to bond with#Mabel * dragging in a bedraggled 12th Doctor *: Guess what I found in the woods!#<- I think Ford should feel socially threatened/jealous and be pushed into being a better grunkle because of it <3#Second to last is PURE indulgence as I am a big Dr Who fan and the Last is Ford after watching Jackson's trilogy ;)#Gravity Falls#GF fanart#Fanart#fan art#Bill cipher#stanford pines#ford pines#grunkle ford#fiddleford mcgucket#young fiddleford mcgucket#young stanford pines#Emma-May Dixon design#doctor who#twelfth doctor#mabel pines#crossover#sketch dump#artists on tumblr#my art
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In a world where Fives survived
[More incorrect quotes and fanart here]
#echo needs a hug™#but it's okay because fives is here to provide :]#i had no idea what to do with echo's armor so i just decided that he both joined the bad batch and stayed with the 501st#because nobody can stop him#and because i said so#also i should currently be doing about 34 other more important things but instead i spent all evening drawing send help#star wars#star wars the clone wars#star wars clone wars#the clone wars#clone wars#tcw#the clone wars fanart#clone wars fanart#tcw fanart#fives#echo#the domino twins#domino twins#echo and fives#fives and echo#clone trooper echo#clone trooper fives#fives lives#star wars fanart#fan art#art#incorrect quotes#my art
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DP x DC: The Most Dangerous Card Game
Ok so Danny has essentially claimed earth as his. And he is fully aware that there are constant threats to the planet. Now he can’t stop a threat that originates on earth (that’s something he’ll leave to the Justice league) but he can do something about outside threats. Doing some research on ancient spells, rituals, and artifacts, he cast a world wide barrier on the planet to protect it from hostile threats so they cannot enter. This will prevent another Pariah Dark incident. However, barriers like this come at a price. You see, there are two ways to make a barrier. Either make one powered up by your own energy and power (which would be constantly draining) or set up a barrier with rules. The way magic works is that nothing can be absolutely indestructible. It must have a weakness. The most powerful barriers weren’t the ones reinforced with layer after layer of protective charms and buffed up with power. Those could eventually be destroyed either by being overpowered, wearing them down, or by cutting off the original power source. No, the most powerful barriers were the ones with a deliberate weakness. A barrier indestructible except for one spot. A cage that can only be opened from the outside. Or that can only be passed with a key or by solving a riddle. So Danny chooses this type of barrier and does the necessary ritual and pours in enough power to make it. And he adds his condition for anyone to enter.
Now the Justice league? Find out about the barrier when Trigon attempts to attack, they were preparing after he threatened what he would do once he got to earth. How he would destroy them. The Justice league tried to take the fight to him first but were utterly destroyed, so they retreated home to tend to their injuries, and fortify earth for one. Last. Stand. Only when Trigon makes his big entrance…he’s stopped.
The Justice league watch in awe as this thin see-through barrier with beautiful green swirls and speckled white lights like stars apears blocking Trigon and his army’s advance. The barrier looks so thin and fragile yet no matter how hard the warlord hits, none of his attacks can get through and neither can he damage said barrier. That’s when Constantine and Zatanna recognizes what this barrier is. Something only a powerful entity could create. For a moment, the league is filled with hope that Trigon can’t get through yet Constantine also explains that it’s not impenetrable. And clearly Trigon knows this too for he calls out a challenge.
And that’s when, in a flash of light, a tiny glowing teenager appears. He looked absolutly minuscule compared to Trigon and yet practically glowed with power (this isn’t a King Danny AU though).
And that is when the conditions for passing the barrier are revealed. And the Justice realize that the only thing stopping Trigon and his army from decimating earth. The only way he can get through….is by beating this glowing teenager in a card game.
Not just any card game though. The most convoluted game Sam, Danny, and Tucker invented themselves. It’s like the infinite realms version of magic the gathering, combined with Pokémon, and chess. And Danny is the master. So sit down Trigon and let’s play.
(The most intense card game of the Justice league’s life).
After Danny wins, this happens a few more times with outer word beings and possibly even demons attempting to invade earth, yet none have been able to beat the mysterious teenager in a card game. Constantine might even take a crack at it and try to figure out how to play. He’s really bad though. Every time this happens, the Justice league worry that this might be the time the teenager looses. Yet every time, he wins (even if only barely).
Meanwhile, Danny, Sam, and Tucker have gotten addicted to the game and play it almost daily. Some teachers might seem them playing the game are are like ‘awww how cute’ not realizing this game is literally saving the world. Jazz is just happy they aren’t spending as much time on their screens playing Doomed.
#DPxDC#Kizzer55555 ideas#Danny makes a card game to save the world.#Technically he worded the ritual so that they had to ‘beat’ him as those are the most powerful barriers and most reliable.#keys can just get lost or stolen (like the one to Pariah’s Coffin)#A riddle would be useless once someone figured out the answer. Like how no one takes the sphynx seriously anymore.#(Sorry Tuck. But it’s true).#And there is NO WAY Danny is just leaving a hole open for anyone to pass through. No thank you!#So…beating him. But it’s not like Danny wanted to fight so…he edited the ritual a TINY bit. Card games are good. Much less painful too.#Danny Tucker and Sam made the most complicated card game they could imagine.#It’s based on their strategies for fighting ghosts. Capturing them in thermoses. And MUCH based on a on field battle strategy.#It often requires spontaneous thinking on the spot. So Danny? In his ELEMNT. It doubles as practice for his actual ghost battles too.#They had SO much fun making this.#Sam added an entire series of plant cards that act as traps and healing ointments and duds that just take up the field.#Tucker added legitimate hyroglyphics combined with Latin as well as English and ghost speak.#Yes. You actually have to speak that language to play. With proper pronunciation. (Amity Parker’s think the three are talking gibberish.)#I headcanon Sam and Tucker are fluent in Ghost.#Constantine WILL figure this game out SO HELP HIM!#Some of the cards also have combinations related to constellations either in name or placement on the board.#By the way the board is based on a Hexagonal summoning circle with Rhunes along the edges#And the placement of the cards on the board and on what rhune MATTERS.#Also the cards move disintegrate and have certain abilities. Think of Harry Potter Wizard Chess.#But they are normal when Danny plays at school. This is just for ✨effect✨ Against invaders.#Danny faces multiple opponents. He also halts alien invasions.#While Danny COULD stop crime on earth he’s not sure how to fight a normal human and hold back so he sticks to ghosts.#The Justice league are going crazy trying to figure out who this entity is and after deep research are convinced this is some sort of#Ancient being who has protected earth for millenia. They have paintings on ruins and everything.#Danny is not aware they think this.#Raven starts praying to Danny as if he is a god and wrangles the other Teen Titans into doing so as well. Danny is still unaware of this.#Danny is not a King or an ancient. Just a very VERY strong ghost.
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(From the body swap AU)
Hii! I'm very happy to see that my body swap comic was so well received, so here's a little something as a thanks for all the support <3
I'm excited to keep sharing my drawings, I hope you like what I make!
#Aand that's how Rulie ended up insisting on keeping Lege's bag lol#They're besties your honor. He wouldn't trust his entire inventory to anyone else xD#This time I had less pages to worry about so I hope this feels a bit less rushed. I'm still figuring this out tho#I also need to learn how to properly draw them bc this has been a struggle lmao#Hyrule's also stressed about the situation he's just been doing a bit of a better job at hiding it lul#Oh they don't know what's coming <3.#Anyways it feels so wrong to draw “Hyrule” with a scowl 😭#I like drawing his hair mirrored specially since it helps make it more different from Legends but it's so hard to draw it from the long side#This is a mess I have no idea what to call them#I confuse myself sometimes while making these lmao#lu legend#lu hyrule#linked universe#lu fanart#body swap au#Ig I'll tag it like that#offmozzart#I thought about kinda spreading all my ideas over time so as to no overdo it so quick ig (+not going crazy over drawing the same characters)#but rn I'm excited to draw them out so I need to take advantage of that
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"red hood gets captured by the justice league" fic but combine it with established (secret) batlantern.
Red Hood sees Hal and Hal has to pretend that he has no idea who this guy is.
Jason: hey, dad! vouch for me, c'mon
Hal: (trying his hardest not to react to his stepkid/his boyfriend's kid calling him dad) no can do. we're waiting for Batman.
Jason eventually annoys Hal into bickering with him, which really dispels the illusion that they don't know eachother.
this could be a scenario where Hal's friends know he's in a relationship with Bruce but not that Bruce is Batman, or the other way around!
other possible scenes:
- "you used to be so cute. now you go around in that helmet like a knock off power ranger." *Jason takes off the helmet* "fuck off, it looks cool! you're one to talk, sailor senshi."
- Hal just cracked and was going to let Jason go when Batman walks in. Jay's mad bc he can't brag that he got Green Lantern to break him out of Justice League custody.
- "I am not sleeping on the couch because you got caught." "oh noooo, poor Hal has to sleep in a guest room, what a tragedy." "are you kidding? I'd be sleeping in the barn." "and you'd be happy about it, you simp."
- "I bet you're wearing the shirt I got you under the magical girl getup." "no, i'm wearing the shirt your sister gave me."
- Hal responding to reasonable questions (how do you know him? are you his father? are you *dating* his father? you have kids? did you know that he sent a duffle bag of decapitated heads to the police?) with "we're waiting for Batman."
- the other Batkids sneak in to bust Jason out and Hal pretends he Does Not See It. full on Looney Tunes shit going on in front of Hal, and he turns to Barry and says "I don't see anything wrong here." Alternatively, a series of Hal coming in clutch and saving the kids from being caught by distracting other League members.
- Hal joins the jailbreak with the Batkids, they get caught, and when Batman shows up Hal yells "SCATTER" and they scramble. when the smoke clears, Bruce is just standing alone, head in hands, because of course his family left him to explain.
#red hood#jason todd#hal jordan#batlantern#batman#i had fun with these ideas. theres so much you can do#and ive read ones where Dick is part of the JL and he tries to break Jason out. but what if its a founding member. what if its Hal#crack
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@/miseraou on twitter drew eva as muu, which i thought was absolutely brilliant. naturally, i had to then sketch my own take on a p:eg milgram au lmao
#a lot of my swap reasonings are kinda surface level though HAHA#some are because of the crime itself like kai as 003 or grace as 010#or because of their personality/vibes like 002 diana or 005 wolfgang#then some of them are straight up bullshit HAHA#like damon as 001 bc hes the main character .so he gets to be first#or desmond as 009 because his eye shape is like mikotos . lmao#(<-i really had no idea what to do about 009 man😭best i can do)#would love to hear other peoples thoughts and takes on 'em tho#cos im just here to be silly and draw#oh no i have to tag this#p:eg#project: eden's garden#project edens garden#damon maitsu#diana venicia#kai monteago#eva tsunaka#wolfgang akire#eloise taulner#jean delamer#toshiko kayura#desmond hall#grace madison
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It's interesting (if often frustrating) to see the renewed Orc Discourse after the last few episodes of ROP. I've seen arguments that orcs have to be personifications of evil rather than people as such or else the ethics of our heroes' approach to them becomes much more fraught. Tolkien's work, as written, seems an odd choice to me for not wrangling with difficult questions, and of course, more diehard fans are going to immediately bring up Shagrat and Gorbag.
If you haven't read LOTR recently, Shagrat and Gorbag are two orcs who briefly have a conversation about how they're being screwed over by Sauron but have no other real options, about their opinions of mistakes that have been made, that they think Sauron himself has made one, but it's not safe to discuss because Sauron has spies in their own ranks. They reminisce about better times when they had more freedom and fantasize about a future when they can go elsewhere and set up a small-scale banditry operation rather than being involved in this huge-scale war. Eventually, however, they end up turning on each other.
Basically any time that someone brings up the "humanity" of this conversation, someone else will point out that they're still bad people. They're not at all guilty about what they're part of. They just resent the dangers to themselves, the pressure from above, failures of competence, the surveillance they're under, and their lack of realistic alternative options. The dream of another life mentioned in the conversation is still one of preying on innocent people, just on a much smaller and more immediate scale, etc.
I think this misses the reason it keeps getting brought up, though. The point is not that Shagrat and Gorbag are good people. The point is that they are people.
There's something very normal and recognizable about their resentment of their superiors, their fears of reprisal and betrayal that ultimately are realized, their dislike of this kind of industrial war machine that erases their individual work and contributions, the tinge of wistfulness in their hope of escape into a different kind of life. Their dialect is deliberately "common"—and there's a lot more to say about that and the fact that it's another commoner, Sam, who outwits them—but one of the main effects is to make them sound familiar and ordinary. And it's interesting that one of the points they specifically raise is that they're not going to get better treatment from "the good guys" so they can't defect, either.
This is self-interested, yes, but it's not the self-interest of some mystical being or spirit or whatnot, but of people.
Tolkien's later remarks tend to back this up. He said that female orcs do exist, but are rarely seen in the story because the characters only interact with the all-male warrior class of orcs. Whatever female orcs "do," it isn't going to war. Maybe they do a lot of the agricultural work that is apparently happening in distant parts of Mordor, maybe they are chiefly responsible for young orcs, maybe both and/or something else, we don't know. But we know they're out there and we know that they reproduce sexually and we know that they're not part of the orcish warrior class.
Regardless of all the problems with this, the idea that orcs have a gender-restricted warrior class at all and we're just not seeing any of their other classes because of where the story is set doesn't sound like automatons of evil. It sounds like an actual culture of people that we only see along the fringes.
And this whole matter of "but if they're people, we have to think about ethics, so they can't be people" is a weird circular argument that cannot account for what's in LOTR or for much of what Tolkien said afterwards. Yes, he struggled with The Problem of Orcs and how to reconcile it with his world building and his ethical system, but "maybe they're not people" is ultimately not a workable solution as far as LOTR goes and can't even account for much of the later evolution of his ideas, including explicit statements in his letters.
And in the end, the real response that comes to mind to that circular argument is "maybe you should think about ethics more."
#i had a whole 'nother tangent that i split off into a separate draft#but i've been thinking about why the 'but shagrat and gorbag are still BAD people' thing seems so inane and missing the point#but yeah. i feel like people desperately want to find some justification in tolkien (and elsewhere) for the idea#that doing something wrong to a person will become doing something right if you can find someone who 'deserves it'#and that literally anything can be justified if someone has been defined as a valid target (i.e. less than a person)#(you see this a lot in the whole twitter main character of the day thing - the idea that the problem is directing the firehose#against the wrong person by mistake rather than the firehose itself)#but it's super weird for a novel built on a metaphor about how using the tools of evil for a good end or against existential enemies#is fundamentally corrupting and only further props up what it's meant to oppose#and i mean... the character most like tolkien literally says he could not morally justify lying to an orc and rejects the ring#it's not exactly a deeply buried theme of the book#anghraine babbles#long post#anghraine rants#legendarium fanwank#legendarium blogging#shagrat#gorbag#tv: lotr#jrr tolkien
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