#also it's not queerbaiting just because a ship you like isn't canon

[doorhine]

(If you don’t want this added to your post, I can delete it and make my own but I liked what you said and had to get this off my chest)

THIS. LITERALLY THIS. 

Like, I think it’s really great that Mizu’s relationship with her gender resonates with so many people. It’s totally valid to make headcanons about it but some of y’all aren’t just doing that. Some of y’all are out here like or outright saying that you’re owed and entitled to Mizu not being a woman, or that she can’t possibly be a woman, because you can’t fathom women having complicated feelings about their gender, especially under a patriarchy, especially in a society where the ideal form of femininity is not inclusive to them because of their race (and economic class).

The creators of the show have made it clear as day that Mizu is a woman and that the overall story is an expression of the experiences of Asian women (mixed and not mixed) and how the intersectionality of their race and gender have affected their lives or the lives of those they’re close to who fall under those identities today by exploring those themes in the Edo period. It also gets into other things like disability which I haven’t seen talked about here a lot. 

So for some of y’all to say that the literal creators of the show merely view Mizu as a woman, or that gender isn’t central to the story’s themes (it is as well as race) so Mizu’s gender is canonically up for interpretation or (as a backhanded way of not really addressing the issue) saying that it’s ok to headcanon Mizu as a woman when she, again, canonically is… like it’s just ridiculous.

You realize you’re misgendering Mizu by doing all of that and confining her to an identity that benefits you like her mom/not mom did? And I really don’t want to hear to indefensible argument that these are just stories and you can play around with the characters like dolls because people make these stories with intent and put their own experiences into them which some of you are denying, in order to make this about you, because you can’t seem to relate to a woman of color or find her complex, nuanced and interesting the way she is. You realize you’re just doing misogyny and racism with extra steps? You realize you’re just repackaging those things in a different way? And I have a feeling that, predictably, most if not all the people doing this or acting like this is just silly “discourse” where people can’t respect each other’s headcanons are white queers because some of you guys will do this thing where you can't relate to a poc especially a woc without somehow making it about you and disguise it as "stating the obvious" that they're this identity or should be in this ship or saying we should let everyone just have fun even when poc call you out on it.

Also, not for nothing, but so far I haven’t seen anyone talk about how Mizu not wanting to be a boy but having to be could relate to the experience of intersex people who are forced to live as a gender they don’t identify with. Except I know why, because that would still make her a woman (and technically not queer) and some of you can’t fathom relating to that. I’ve also only seen a few people, as of right now, talk about how Taigen’s growing attachment to Mizu, who he still thinks is a man at this point, suggests that he’s bi or pan because I know some people, even in the queer community, don’t care about bi and pan people. 

Every marginalized person should get more rep, at the same time and not the trickled down version that we see in mainstream media where they go one group at a time. But, and I’m saying all of this as a queer woman of color (who’s been questioning but still identifies a lot with being a woman and as of right now feels genderqueer works best to describe my relationship with gender), some of you need to accept that this includes women of color and people of color in general regardless of whether or not they're also queer because we don’t get the same kind of quality or quantity of rep that white people do period. 

Also, we simply don’t know the people who worked on this show. Some of them could be queer for all you know, and they shouldn’t have to out themselves for your validation. Also, it’s not like the show itself has completely ignored the existence of queer people. It even shows how in a restrictive period like Edo, “There was a sense of sexual openness during the period that might defy modern expectations.” Madame Kaji assumes Mizu wants to be with a man at the brothel, Taigen has growing feelings for Mizu while thinking she’s a man, and, to me, Heiji Shindo and Fowler gave off some toxic couple vibes. (Edit:) There's also a literal threesome and discussion of kink in the same episode. And like, that might not feel like enough but there’s so much love, thought, research and nuance put into this show and all the topics and intersecting marginalized identities it does explicitly discuss that to write all that off because it doesn’t cater to some of your specific experiences (when the people who worked on this show don’t even know you or owe it to you) is very individualistic and entitled. 

The show has 4 seasons planned, which leaves room for explicit queerness if that’s the creator’s intention, but I really hope they get it regardless because woc and poc in general do not get shows like this every day in western media. It doesn’t matter to me that Mizu and the other characters aren’t the same race as me or explicitly queer because I’m capable of relating to and even finding solidarity in people who aren’t exactly like me. I’ve also had to relate to people different from me in the media as a queer black woman in a white cishet world. I like Mizu for who she is because she’s interesting and well written, not because I feel entitled to her being exactly like what I find relatable. 

If we can all understand that gender identity and presentation/expression are a complex thing, especially if we take it a step further and recognize how intersecting identities like race, class, disability and so on further influence that, even if someone just ends up being cis+ as we call them, then you should be able to understand why Mizu, as a woman, is written the way she is in a non-white culture and time period that doesn’t use the western terminology for gender and sexuality that we use today. 

Again, because I know if anyone reads this some of you will gloss over half of what I say and make assumptions, I’m not saying that you can’t find Mizu relatable if you're transmac, nb, sapphic, etc. That’s valid and so is having and sharing your own thoughts and headcanons about it. I personally like to headcanon her with some of my identities as a queer person. But some of you are blatantly ignoring the creators’ explicit intent when they wrote the show from their own experiences because you feel entitled to people, who don’t know you or owe it to you, catering to you specifically. And I see a lot of that in some shape or form in a tag that’s just starting to grow, because the show literally just came out last Friday, when there could be more discussions and analyses about the show and all it talks about and executes wonderfully.

I watched the behind the scenes about the animation of Blue Eye Samurai and spoilers If you care but the fact some of you are pissed off the creators state Mizu is a woman over and over again is dumb. At this point, some ppl are so strangely sexist you do not think women are complex characters you can relate to or would never put revenge or being in disguise for safety (and ease of travel ) above conformity or femininity.

Mizu's mother told her two things: don't leave the house or they will kill us and don't let them know you're a girl because they're looking for a girl and will kill you. Mizu disobeys one of these and her hut gets set on fire with her mother in there. It's not hard to imagine why she'd continue dressing up as a boy for safety. If you really think a girl or woman would never dress up as a man to avoid being hunted down and killed, something is wrong with your brain. Women and girls famously don't like being brutally murdered.

That woman and child weren't allowed in the city to sell their goods and avoid starving because no male chaperone. How is Mizu supposed to get revenge if she needs a male chaperone to travel?

Some are denying central themes (because Mizu is relatable) like: the narrow paths women have- being a wife or an ' improper woman' ( working in a brothel ) to the point not even a princess was in control. Akemi is working within the confines of being a wife and we'll see how that goes. Disappointment doesn't mean bad writing because you don't think women would ever do that ( they do ) or God forbid you relate to someone different from you. She would have never ended up with Akemi because they're on very divergent paths. They were never going to scissor 😔 shame because it might fix her lol

Ideas get popular online and you're meant to treat pet theories like holy scripture. If you think the experiences of Mizu is too cool to be explored in a woman, first of all wooow!!, 2nd you're ignoring the story and it's a you problem.

[smartie-chan]

Long rambling incoming in 3,2,1...

I know that I'm not really any kind of big celebrity in the Stobotnik world. The only thing I've got going for myself is the fact that I've been there since the very beginning, with my one 'I'm so proud of this community' Meme getting a like or two every full moon or so. It's also been a hot second since I've written a Stobotnik Fic, and yet, I've never really left the fandom. Far from it.

So boooooy, when that trailer dropped, let's just say, I've been going wild! That being said, I have calmed down a tiny bit and woud like to share my two cents with you all.

Especially since, considering how gay the trailer was, I've noticed people kind of leaning into either of two camps.

Team 1: They might actually make it canon y'all. This is not a drill!!!!

or

Team 2: This is the most intense queerbaiting I've ever seen, but fuck it, take my money!

Now, I will tell you where I'm standing at the end of things, but let's talk facts before I do, shall we?

I know Jim & Lee were having fun on set during Movie 1, but I doubt either of them expected us all to get quite this feral over these two evil man. In fact, I'm not sure what their plans were for Agent Stone in general. I'd love to believe that they saw us freaking the fuck out and decided to make Stone a big part of the sequels because of that. But then I look at the Robotnik Mushroom Planet scene and think: They gave this man an actual stone to hold onto, going so far as to carve Stone's face into said stone, just so he could pretend he wasn't alone and Stone was still with him. Clearly, Robotinik was never willing to admit that he cared, admit that there could be someone who he had allowed to get close, given that there had never been anyone before who had cared enough about HIM, so why should HE make the mistake of caring about someone else either. Cause, you know, it's easier to pretend there's noone than admit that there could be, just to realise that you were wrong actually. And yet. Despite all that he held onto Stone the stone, like his life depended on it. I love that scene because it's hella gay, but I love it even more because it's amazing writing, giving us the payoff for the forshadwed "I won't miss you when you're gone" scene from way back when. They didn't have to do that. And yet they made that choice. Included that moment for a reason. So I'd love to think that even back then, they were very willing to play with the dynamic of them going forward.

Clearly things and plans changed After Movie 1 , after we saw these two and made Stobotnik as big as it is. I'll talk about movie 2 in a hot second, but let's return to the way they promoted 2 first. Cause THAT was CLEARLY queerbaiting ... or was it... ? For you see, they knew what they were doing, they knew how to get us all excited , posting this on Valentine, letting Sonic make a heart, drawing the whole thing in a romantic light, going so far as to include bi-lighting in the trailer. On top of the latte art that was designed to get us queers to show up. I saw that art, freaked out and showed it to all of my friends. One friend, let's call her Barbara, smiled at me, like you smile at somone who still believes in the Easter Bunny and told me she hoped I knew they were playing with me. In fact, she was kind of dissapointed I allowed them to get to me so much. And I KNEW. I knew they were trying to bait me. I'm not stupid. This isn't the first time I've been queerbaited after all. And it won't be the last time, that's for sure. And yet, I didn't care because I loved that they acknowledged us. Loved that they were willing to give us something, even if it wasn't actually real and they were clearly NEVER going to include actual ship latte art of Stone & Robotnik together. Cause that would be gay. Haha. And those two totally weren't gay. Ain't I right? :)) Queer rep has gotten more common and yet, so has queerbaiting. Cause nowadays the chance that something could be actually made canon is way more likely than it was, let's say, 15 years ago. So companies love to use that, love playing into that even more. Like, do I have to remind you all what they were doing for the Deadpool & Wolverine movie marketing ??? Just saying.

As much as I love Lee and as much as we're loosing our marbels every time he as much as winks in our direction, I'll not be using any of his posts as evidence for the points I'm about to make further down. Cause, you know, at the end of the day, he's just one of us as well. Another shipper. A hella supportive shipper who may or may not have had a hand in the way he portrayed Stone, but still. Love you Lee. Thank you for having our back!

So now. Movie 2. And the godforsaken Maid Dress Scene. I hope we are all proud of ourselves. Cause that scene was our doing. I promise you, promise you!!! they didn't have that planned before the fandom happend. They saw us and were like "You can have this. As a treat :3". Personally I didn't freak out as much as the rest of you all, but I'm glad you guys had fun. It was a gift to us after all, so I guess it's fine if we enjoyed it. Jokes aside though, let's get back to what movie 2 did, even though they may or may not have realised it at the time. As in: They made Stobotnik canon. What do you mean by canon, Smartie?????, you might ask. And I'll answer, cause it's simple: I mean canon, as in canon. Yes, that's right. Stobotnik has been canon for a while... or... at least 50% of it. Let's get back to the Latte, shall we? Back then I thought they were making fun of us. Queerbaiting at it's finest. And then the movie happend and Stone confessed his love right then and there for the world to see, basically drawing fanart into Robotnik's caffe for who knows how long and Robotnik? That stupid -3000 IQ genius knew. He fucking knew!! Has always known and was either unwilling to read between the lines or mistook the affection for simple loyalty. Not-Spoiler: It's the later by the way, because we have that deleted scene. That beautiful deleted scene. But let's get back to the art for a second. Because I was basically dying in my seat. And I didn't think people were talking about it enough, cause it was the proof, not that stupid maid outfit that was simply put in as a joke that audiences were supposed to laugh at. But this. This! The whole scene were Stone was lovesick and heartbroken, drawing art of his lost non-lover, the way the life returned to his eyes the second said man returned, on top of literally all of him for the rest of the movie prooved one thing to me: Agent Stone was in love with Dr. Robotnik. It's clear he's never said so out loud, and for a good reason, but he didn't have to. It was so obvious anyone with an IQ lower than 299 could have seen. Just a shame that that one 300 IQ guy couldn't. So now, deleted scene time. Woopwoop. :P Recall how they had planned to make Stone even more in love and heart-eyed - JESUS CHRIST MY GUY - but went for an alternative scene instead? In case you aren't familiar with the scene, it's basically Stone telling Robotnik how he's followed his guide-lines, making the Stone Comic Canon, how he's made sure noone touched his babies, how he's known he'd return, how he's waited for him all this time cause he knew KNEW he'd come back and for a second there Robotnik doesn't know what to say. He looks that man in the eyes and for a split second he wonders, questions, and then... then he's scared. Scared of what that could mean. Scared that he could actually mean something to someone and he panics and decides to use violence to laugh it off, to refelect, to pretend that in that moment, he didn't actually feel something. That Stone didn't make him feel ... vulnerable. Because at that point, he cares too. He's not ready to admit it, at least not without having to joke about it. But he does. He does!! And the thought of it being mutual scares him. Probably more than anything ever has. Because if he allows this, this feeling to settle and bloom, he's got to admit that this, whatever it is, has the power to destroy and hurt him. And he can't do that. Maybe not again. Maybe not ever. Not now. Not now that he's what... 40? and has found peace with the fact that he'll die alone.

I know they were leaning into Stobotnik a lot, but they also... kind of didn't, following the natural consequences of the stuff they had set up in the prior movie, allowing Robotnik to go through an actual character arc. It's subtle, and he's still and asshole - always wil be - but that doesn't change the fact that his arc still exists and is actually very well done. Stone doesn't really have that obvious of an arc. Because it's not really much of an arc, we're just learning more about him, fleshing out his character. The only thing we know for certain is, that he adores and loves Robotnik and that he's willing to betray everyone and everything for him. Even if Robotnik never loves him back. He's accepted that, as long as he's alowed a place at his side.

And now, my fellow shippers, movie 3. Or rather, pre-movie 3. And the much discussed question: Are we getting queerbaited? Well, that depends how you define queerbaiting, doesn't it? Is it queerbaiting if it's unrequited love? Cause that's our current standpoint. Stone has found his doctor, nursed him back to health, lived with him, been by his side for months (years) and the only thing that is standing in their way now is: Robotnik's feelings. They have great build-up, put this man on a path, shown us how he's grown and now all that's left is to see, how they'll decide to finish his story. If I look at all that's happend up to this point, from a writing/writer stand-point, I'd say, that it would make sense for Robotnik to admit, that he cares. Cause that has been his arc, his journey. To admit that yes: He doesn't care about humanity, but he does care about Stone. Has for a very long while in fact. Be that platonic, or romantic. Doing literally anything else would not make sense at that point and would actually be an insult to their own work. And their writing has been pretty solid, so I'm confident we will get something. Especially since... I HAVE seen the leaks. Now, storyboards are just that. Something from early development, something that could change. Which is why I'd normally ignore them.... iiiiiiiif it weren't for that one line from the trailer. That one. fucking. line. That made me realise: Holy shit, those mad lads are doing it. They are finishing Robotnik's arc. That's when I understood why Team 1 was loosing their marbels. Because,

SPOILER!!!!! he is going to admi it. He is going to admit it to himself, and he's gonna do something so wild and crazy it scares me more than you understand. The only question is. Will he surive to tell the tale? And if he does, will he be brave enough to share that admission with Stone?

END OF SPOILER

I don't have links to the storyboard. In retrospect, I should have saved them. But what's done is done. Not that I cod delete the knowledge of what I've seen even if I tried. People seem hesitant to tell people all they have seen, cause those of us who have, and know the Sonic 2 story seem to have a good understanding of what and when that spoiler is taking place. And especially what outcome it seems to be leading into. But, if anyone asks, I am willing to share what it was I saw. If you really wanna know. If you are truly sure.

That being said. How do I feel about Stobotnik? I don't think we're getting a kiss. But I think (and hope) we're gonna get a moment. A moment of Robotnik being open, of him sharing that Stone means somethig to him. They even have the potential to include a joke here, of Stone perhaps attempting to hug Robotnik, for him to allow it for 3 seconds or so, only for him to punch Stone and say something along the lines of: "Okay, that's enough." You know, something close to the High Five moment, just THIS TIME they actually do the high five (or hug). You can have the feels and the joke. It's still Robotnik after all. It's what I'm hoping for, actually, cause I don't think Robotnik is ready for THAT admission quite yet. A hug though? That I could see.

I know we still have to fight against being exploited and played with, but that being said, I don't think love confessions have to always be that huge thing, that clashing of tongues and body parts. They can also be soft and quite. A moment of vulnerability and trust. Of openness. In fact, if Robotnik were to allow Stone a hug, it would be even more impactful than a kiss could ever be. He's hugging Gerald in the trailer, so they have shown me that they are not afraid to make this man hug.

It gives me hope. And it - and the leaks - are the reason why I'm Team 1. I think we could actually get canon Stobotnik you all. And I'm so hyped you don't understand. Let's see what Stobotnik marketing they are going to feed us over the next few months. I, for one, am looking forward to it. ^-^

Live long and prosper 🥚🖤🪨

[buddiebeginz]

Fandom I'm begging you all to wait and see how the season plays out. Everything right now seems to be pointing towards Buddie and sure I could be wrong but I also think it would be the shows downfall if they didn't make Buddie happen this season and I think Tim and abc know that.

This isn't just about catering to fandom whims this is that since right before s7 they've done so much to put focus on Buddie way more than with any season before. Deliberate choices have been made that if they're not leading to Buddie can't not be seen as queerbaiting. And yes a show with queer characters can still queerbait if they're using a popular queer ship to garner attention and views. Though I don't think that's what's happening here.

The only reason I think more didn't happen with Buddie last season is because the season was short and they got renewed for s8 early. You can tell if you watch from eps 1-6 that they were leading somewhere with Buddie (they had them singing a karaoke love song ffs) but changed gears after getting renewed for s8. At the same time Tim still didn't put more development or focus on b/t so it's not that Buddie happening was shelved (as in it's never happening) it was just paused.

Also I see people spiraling about that pic Ryan posted assuming because he's in a robe and because he put "Don Diaz" on it that it's a reference to Don Juan and this means Eddie is going to be hooking up with a bunch of women. I just don't see that happening. Ryan could have easily just been making a joke or trying to mess with fandom or it could mean nothing. It could be a Godfather reference. Or it could be something like Eddie tries to hook up with a random girl and he just can't do it and then that leads to him talking to the priest. Unfortunately we aren't going to know what that pic really means until the episode airs.

I know we've all been burned by the show (and other shows) before and I get being nervous about what could happen this season. But remember that Buck was supposed to come out in s4 (this has been confirmed by Oliver) and Eddie in s5 (this has been confirmed by the the insider) and presumably that's when Buddie would have happened. Buddie has been in the works for years. The main thing stopping it before was Fox and last season it was just too short to have Buck to come out, Eddie come out, and then Buddie to happen. 10 eps was just not enough time to tell such huge important stories for the show and these characters.

I know Tim and others behind the scenes of the show have made decisions we haven't always loved and maybe it's naive of me to still have trust in them after all this time but it's not just that. I see the signs. If I had seen more effort being put into b/t last season and into promoting them as a couple and especially if I saw that happening this season I'd be a lot more skeptical about the likelihood of Buddie ever happening. But I haven't seen any of that.

This season Tim has talked about how b/t are still together but he doesn't talk about the ship like it's this important thing, he talks about it like T*mmy is just like any other person Buck has dated. Meanwhile Eddie is ALWAYS mentioned when b/t are talked about including by Tim. Networks and showrunners know how to handle these kinds of things. If they wanted to minimize the attention Buddie gets they would have done so. We know this because that's exactly what they did in past seasons while they were with Fox, particularly after Tim left. Instead though since last season they've actually been putting more attention on Buddie, Ryan, and Oliver.

Like I said I get being nervous that something we've all hoped for for a long time might not happen. I know that Buddie and Eddie coming out means more to a lot of us than just some fictional characters and a ship. I know a lot of us see ourselves in them and we also see how important and groundbreaking in a way it will be when they finally go canon. I get why the anxiety around this season is heightened probably more so than any other season before it. We've never been as close to Buddie happening as we are now and that's so exciting but also scary.

But this is why I think we need to take every bts and spoiler etc that we get from the show and people involved in it (including the journalists who review it) with a grain of salt. We just aren't going to know what each episode is about until we watch them. Even when the season starts we need to remember to let the story play out. We might see things we won't like with b/t or Eddie in 801 but there will still be 17 more eps to get through where anything could happen.

We are so lucky that 911 is still on the air with most of the original cast still there and not looking to leave. That all the people that matter Tim, Oliver, and Ryan have all spoken out in support of Buddie happening. I've shipped non canon ships before that just were never going to happen, where showrunners and actors literally made fun of the fans for even shipping it. That's not what's happening with 911. Buddie now is being treated like a legitimate possibility we just have to be patient.

[lacrimosathedark]

I need to know what the fuck is wrong with Radioapple Haters.

I don't mean the people who just don't like the ship, I presume most of them are fine. I mean Haters.

I mean the people who hate it vehemently enough that they attack the creator for advertising duo art.

Apparently (correction: a member of the social media team on Viv's account) posted the new signed Alastor and Lucifer poster on Youtube, and people threw a goddamn fit, enough that that post is now down. I've seen screenshots, but the page itself is gone. It has since been replaced clearly without the ship name.

Like, seriously? All that because you hate a ship? Because they called out the Radioapple fans for art of the pair just in a poster together? The image isn't even ship art, Lucifer is glaring daggers at Alastor, as per usual.

Viv grew in fandom spaces. Alastor is literally an edgy Deviantart OC. She just released a Helluva Boss minisode with the cringiest weeb fan swooning over Blitz when he kills her FOR SHIPPING SOMETHING.

Radioapple is popular, EVERYONE knows this, it's only expected they would capitalize on it, even if just as a joke. (they do so regularly on tiktok)

The whole duo image (correct me if I'm wrong) was AMIR TALAI'S IDEA. Alastor's voice actor is REGULARLY joking around with Radioapple shippers. It's practically his hobby at this point.

Like, this was literally him the other day.

Like??? Calm yourselves.

And as for Viv herself, she has Liked a lot of ship art, including Radioapple.

The creator doesn't mind it, one of the actors finds it hilarious, and the other actor to my knowledge hasn't spoken on the ship but DID sign those posters, WHICH IS ALL THAT POST WAS ABOUT ANYWAY. A poster of two well-loved characters signed by their well-loved voice actors.

Look, 98% chance that Radioapple isn't going to happen, if only to make Alastor's sexuality and the ace rep ABUNDANTLY clear. But if Viv did decide to go that route? Okay? It's her show, not yours? Fuck off???

If you want to consider this duo art Radioapple, then there were ALSO Radiodust and Charlastor posters in the same vein and I didn't see people flipping shit about that despite, yknow, Chaggie and Huskerdust.

The canon of a series you otherwise enjoy can and will disappoint you. As a former of the Supernatural fandom, I am deeply aware of this. When Castiel went season after season with queerbaiting, when they killed off the beloved badass lesbian character Charlie, when Sam had a cool deaf hunter gf who disappeared and never came back, you know what the fandom did?

They made fanfiction about it. And let me tell you, some of it is much better than the series.

You could do that. Or, fuck, maybe someone else already has and you can go read that instead.

You don't like the way the series is going? That's fine. It's no longer for you. Stop watching. Make your own versions of them. But don't go off attacking people for enjoying the idea of Lucifer and Alastor being in close proximity.

The creative team, creator, actors, and artists/animators, is Radioapple friendly. If you can't handle that without throwing a tantrum, find the goddamn door.

I'm not telling you you have to like any ship. I sure as shit don't. But don't be an asshole about it.

[blue-eye-samurai]

For real 🤦🏻‍♀️ I am so tired of this crap. We finally get to see good representation for cis-gender women of color and they (mainly white queers) argue that Mizu isn’t even a woman simply because she’s not traditionally feminine. It’s interesting because nobody argues that Mulan isn’t canonically a cis-gender woman even though plenty of people headcanon that character as nonbinary or trans masc as well. Why is Mizu being treated differently?

Why are women suddenly no longer considered “women” if they’re not stereotypically girly and submissive? Why can’t Mizu be a cis-gender woman AND still be the greatest Samurai ever? Why do y’all think it’s wrong for us (including the show’s creators) to refer to Mizu as she/her, especially when there aren’t many well written stories that center around cis-gender women of color who are morally grey and not traditionally feminine?

White queers need to remember that they are outsiders looking in here. Just because a character resonates with you personally, it doesn’t mean that fictional piece of media is actually about you. Headcanons are still just headcanons. Yes, “Blue Eye Samurai” has plenty of queer elements in it, but that does not make it a queer story. Those of you who keep insisting otherwise are just projecting whatever you want to see in a story that is not about you and was not created for you.

I understand white trans mascs desperately crave good representation, but so do cis-gender women of color. We deserve to feel seen/heard too, and as people who also understand what it’s like to be marginalized, how is it that y’all don’t realize that it’s wrong for you to take away resources from cis-gender women of color? How do y’all not realize that you’re alienating the very people who this show was specifically created by and for?

Like damn. Lots of you in the BES tags are making literally everything about “gender ambiguity” when Mizu’s gender identity isn’t even ambiguous. She IS a woman in canon. Just because she’s not traditionally feminine and has complicated feelings about her gender (and about sex), it doesn’t mean that she’s not still a woman. Cis-gender women can and do still have complicated feelings about sex and their gender. Believe it or not, we are complex human beings as well.

And as someone who is biracial + multicultural, who is not traditionally feminine but is still very much a woman … it’s very disappointing (but not surprising) to see how quickly certain people have decentered this show’s central themes (racism + patriarchy) from fandom discourse. Y’all are here throwing around baseless accusations at anyone who doesn’t accept your headcanons as fact and complaining that this show isn’t “queer enough” for you — saying that Mizu’s storyline would be “so boring” if the character is cis-gender or straight (which they are in canon so far).

Like seriously, just say that you don’t care about women of color (especially ones who aren’t traditionally feminine) and move on. We see your racism + misogyny and we are not surprised at all.

I don’t know how some of you could watch blu eyed samurai and still debate Mizu’s gender like hello ??? media literacy dead ??? Mizu is a woman, that’s the whole fucking point !!!! That’s her biggest crime !!!

Eiji couldn’t care less about her heritage but he literally cut her off when she tried to confess her gender !!!!

Mikio was fine with her being half white but the moment she dared to show him that -as a woman- she was a greater fighter it was over. His ego was irreparably hurt because a woman defeated him !!!!

And he calls her a monster !!!! He calls her a monster because she’s a woman and she’s strong she’s capable she can fight she isn’t submissive and that’s the point !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[darklinaforever]

Today we really get called homophobic /queerphobic for nothing these days.

Because I don't 100% appreciate (without completely hating it, I remind you, I still can't wait to see what Franchaela will give us) the gender change from Michael to Michaela in Bridgerton.

Because I hope we don't change Benedict's romance with Sophie with a man instead, by also changing Sophie's gender for example (although fortunately that shouldn't happen at all).

Because I don't like Rhaenicent (even though this queerbaiting ship doesn't even have a place in the dance of the dragons storyline).

Because I don't like Rhaesaria and I'm firmly against it (it comes out of nowhere and won't go anywhere and what's more it goes against both the character of Rhaenyra who would never cheat on Daemon and that of Mysaria who would never be sincere with Rhaenyra).

Because I don't like the identity and gender problems that the writers attributed to Rhaenyra who in HOTD wants to be a man (seriously, wtf ?), not to mention suddenly inventing her a bisexuality that she actually doesn't have in the original Fire and Blood canon.

The fact of making Jaskier in The Witcher also like men for a plot that serves no purpose ? It doesn't seem to me from what I remember that he also likes men in the books, however I remember that Ciri was on the other hand bisexual ?

So once again, why make a character who isn't queer in the books a character who is queer in the adaptation when you just have to adapt the ones who are queer ?!

Regardless, it kills me to be called homophobic / queerphobic because I disagree with some seriously questionable writing decisions.

Or worse, telling me that I'm homophobic /queerphobic for loving fictional problematic queer relationships... That's still a strong shitty argument.

[blazethecheeto]

hi so i watched the supergirl finale. and like. what the fuck guys.

that might have been the biggest queer analogy i've ever seen without it being explicitly stated. the whole talk where kara compares how she feels like she's been trapped, how she's been hiding and never living her authentic truth to alex feeling free and joyful with her wife.

the life she wants to have. the metaphors of her not feeling ready to come out. the constant parallels to alex's journey and her wedding vows resonating with kara so deeply. CAT SAYING "most of all, i hope you choose to become your full self."

TEARS. CRYING. LIKE HAPPY PRIDE MONTH??? I GUESS???

and then, AND THEN- out of every single person, lena luthor is the one she has her last conversation with. she is the one to support her, to believe in her, like she always has. lena comparing how both of them were always being told who they were supposed to be, the roles society set up for them, and how they both defied it by becoming friends.

no, because don't get me started with how lillian said in the very beginning of the episode to lena: "live your life the way you want to live it." the insane queer metaphors and parallels with her magic being programmed out of her as a kid because 'it wasn't how the luthor family was supposed to be".

lena turning to kara in that conversation, saying she's finally living her own life and it feels amazing, inviting kara to join her and go through and take on that journey together. kara wondering how it would feel like to connect with someone as her full self NOT KNOWING THAT PERSON IS RIGHT IN FRONT OF HER? lena just responding "i think it'd be empowering" WISTFULLY? i can't do this guys i sobbed.

like TF DO YOU MEAN "i didn't get to grow up to be the person i was supposed to be, and i think it's the same for you" and "i give people speeches on how to live their best lives, but i'm too afraid to live my own".

also, ain't no way they killed off william AND made mon-el come back JUST to confirm that ship was never becoming canon. the writers really said yeah, both of them will be the only people at the wedding with absolutely no other love interests except each other!!

finally, on a less serious note, in that last cat + kara conversation, the way she said-

"i just feel..."

"bi...furcated?"

and i was like LMAO WAS CAT JUST GONNA SAY "KARA, YOU'RE BI GIRLIE."

tl;dr: that was an insane show to go through, i can only imagine how the fans reacted, but man. queerbaiting's really something isn't it. i'm gonna cry and read more supercorp fanfiction.

[leandra-kinard]

On Oliver's social media behavior regarding Bucktommy vs. Buddie

Kind of in line with many of the good points raised by @bbbuckaroo in this ask response, but I wanted to make my own post about it.

I, too, have seen posts that prompted this ask - from more well-meaning people remarking that Oliver could/should maybe say something against the toxic Buddie shippers and promote Bucktommy more, to more critical voices saying he's essentially ship-baiting with Buddie because he keeps posting about them.

As the referenced post says, Oliver "knows how important and pivotal the Buddie FRIENDSHIP is".

So let's look at that from Oliver's (and in connection also Ryan's) point of view for a moment here.

You're an actor who's been playing one half of what is one of the most integral relationships on a very successful show. That relationship has textually always been a friendship, but with elements that make it richer and deeper than most regular friendships; it's a sort of family dynamic.

It could be read as having a potential for romance, and you're open to that, should the writers ever decide that's the direction they want to take it. You have said so multiple times, not just to appease a large group of fans, but because you genuinely mean it. You're open to it, but you don't know if it's ever going to happen, nor do you have any power over it.

You do love the way fans are celebrating this relationship though - whether they highlight the canonical platonic aspects or take it a step further. You "love the love" (as Ryan has put it). It's great, it's heartwarming, it's moving because the potential of that romance and your character figuring out he's bisexual means so much to queer fans who are looking for good queer representation (which your show already has, but there could always be a bit more, right?). You see and want to acknowledge all the creativity people pour into it.

But you're careful after a while, because, so far, that relationship has only textually been platonic, and some fans are accusing both the writers and you of queerbaiting.

So you take a step back, do less social media for a while. You don't want them to think you're confirming anything just because you see value in certain fictional interpretations of the text.

But then you are told that your character is supposed to come out as bisexual; he'll have a romance with a background character they're bringing back for a couple of episodes. While that's not exactly the relationship many of the fans hoped to get, it's still amazing. It's the right representation of bisexual characters that is very rarely done right, and it'll confirm that they always read your character correctly as bisexual. It'll be so validating to the fans to know they didn't misinterpret that, and you're very happy about that.

But you still love the family-like, platonic relationship you've built with the other character for 5 whole seasons before this. And you love the relationship your character has with his son, too. (In a way, Buck is to Christopher what Bobby is to Buck - a father figure).

You want to keep celebrating that because your new romantic relationship doesn't replace the year-long friendship with Eddie. You want to show fans that 'hey, even though this isn't exactly what you hoped for, it's still great; it's important. Eddie and Chris are still and always will be a huge part of Buck's life. Don't worry. Buck will not abandon them. I still see you and acknowledge you, but let's focus on the textual friendship and platonic love here. Which is also very, very important, and very dear to me personally."

And there isn't that much to share about a romantic relationship that's just begun yet anyway, especially with the season being so short and packed with multiple story arcs around the main characters. It's all still at the start, and while it's great, exciting and has the potential to become something lasting, nothing's set in stone yet. You probably also don't want to have people get their hopes up that Bucktommy is 'confirmed' as endgame; and you don't want to put a main character who has his own, very complex story arc going on this season on the backburner.

You've obviously 'done it wrong'. But no matter how else you could have done it, it would have been wrong as well. You probably know this by now, because no matter what you did in the past, there were always people who interpreted your actions and words in bad faith to confirm their own agenda.

So what the hell are you supposed to do other than what feels good to you while applying a little bit of caution?

---

Oliver CANNOT get it right. It's simply impossible. If he didn't post at all, some fans would be mad that he doesn't say anything. If he only or primarily promoted Bucktommy, they'd be mad that he ignores Eddie and Chris entirely. If he only promoted Buddie (platonic) and Chris, they'd be mad that he's ship baiting. And if he goes for the balance of putting his character's 6-year history with Eddie+Chris and the newly developing romance with Tommy in perspective, i.e. what he's doing right now, they're still mad.

In any potential scenario, the loud and obnoxiously entitled portion of the fandom would find a reason to criticize. It really does not matter what he does.

So, where does that leave us? Personally, I'd say leave the man alone. Let him post and say what he feels is best, and don't try to look at it under any 'bad faith' lens. He's probably given it sufficient thought and does what he thinks is best and feels right.

[blue-eye-samurai]

Thank you @sitephi and @dicapiito for speaking up about this topic.

I completely agree — at first glance it doesn’t feel wrong at all. Headcanons can be fun and it’s normal for different people to interpret fictional media in different ways. However, it stops being fun and starts getting problematic when certain people begin to act like their personal interpretations MUST be accepted as irrefutable facts.

We see white queers doing this ALL THE TIME with non white characters who are marginalized in other ways. They are not used to consuming media that is not centered around them and their lived experiences, so they immediately start projecting themselves onto those characters because otherwise they can’t relate to the narrative of the story.

It’s really frustrating how so many people think it’s okay to discount Mizu as woman when she gives us (the audience) a very clear and valid perspective of what it’s like to be marginalized as a cishet woman of color. It’s upsetting how so many white minorities continue to act entitled to stories that are not about them and were not created for them in the first place.

I mean, even the show’s writers knew this would happen. They knew that the audience would watch the first episode and assume that Mizu is either A) a cishet man, B) a transman or nonbinary person or C) a butch lesbian. They knew people were going to think this way because “nobody this cool could ever be a cishet woman”. And then they accuse the show’s creators of “queer baiting” them simply because they didn’t get what they expected from Mizu.

Whether they want to admit or not, these are still the assumptions that many folks always make when it comes to women who are not traditionally feminine.

Women of color in particular are always expected to overcompensate and must be hyper feminine in order to even be seen as “women”. We grow up disliking our own ethnic features because we’re taught to think of ourselves as either ugly or as just a sexual object, so because of this we always feel like we have to make up for something when it comes to society’s ideal beauty standards.

Example: as a mixed race person, Mizu is seen as unattractive in 1600s Edo, Japan. Mikio’s first words to her were “you’re not as hideous as I expected” and he says this so causally because they both know she’s not considered beautiful in their society. Mizu is not even considered truly “Japanese” even though she was born + raised there, only speaks Japanese and also had a Japanese parent.

Even while presenting as a man, people everywhere are constantly saying that Mizu is ugly. Women aren’t considered “women” if they aren’t beautiful and traditionally feminine, so for Mizu to be both mixed race AND an unattractive woman (again, in their mind), that just makes her double the sin in society’s eyes.

Up until this point Mizu had never even been allowed to live publicly as a woman because her “mother” stripped away her womanhood since birth and insisted that Mizu “must always be a boy” in order to survive, so I don’t doubt that also contributes to Mizu’s pain and trauma. She has never been allowed to be fully herself. Not even once. Mizu is miserable living this way and it’s frustrating how white queers don’t realize that because they’re too busy projecting themselves onto her.

They see a strong able bodied character who is not traditionally feminine and decide that is not a woman.

They see a character who binds their breasts and decide that is a transman or nonbinary person.

They see a character who is not very outwardly emotional and decide that person is autistic.

They see a character who has other priorities besides sex and decide that person is asexual.

And so on, and so on … it’s all just one projection after another. And a lot of them will say things like “Mizu is too cool to be cishet lol” and I’m like??? Since when are stories about cishet women of color considered too boring for audiences? Last I checked — we rarely get representation, much less good representation that is both well written and well researched.

Also, it’s so interesting to me how many of them have such an easy time accepting Akemi as a “woman” but not Mizu. And we all know why — it’s because Akemi is exactly what society thinks women should be: delicate, submissive, thin, rich, “pure blood” and traditionally feminine. Basically she is all the things that Mizu lacks in their eyes. And again, the writers know this too because that’s exactly why Mizu hates Akemi at first.

Mizu is jealous of Akemi because she gets to live publicly as a woman and is openly accepted by other women around her. One of the reasons why Mizu is so angry is because she was denied womanhood! All Mizu really wants is to be accepted as a fellow Japanese woman and yet white queers are genuinely out here constantly arguing otherwise. 🤦🏻‍♀️

On first glance theres nothing inherently wrong w lgbt/nd hcs of characters of color or whatever. But on a more deeper level it says something when white minorities keep making theories and hcs about characters of colour (who are cishet and nt) because they cannot relate to them otherwise. like w the mizu thing - most of the time i would encourage lgbt hcs, ace hcs, autism hcs etc but especially in the shows context..no. shes literally a cishet woman! its not even a zhu chongba situation where someones faking being a man but is also genuinely nonbinary/possibly transmasc. mizu is not lgbt and thats fine. mizus opression comes from her race (specifically being mixed with white) and gender (the swordsmaster accepts her race and past, but doesnt listen to her when shes going to confess being a woman) . Also shes FORCED to be a man and its not even like a "i was forced at first but now im content and i might be a man all along" like no.

Note: since i tagged this and strangers might see it- im a bi white+asian trans man whos autistic. So dont pull the 'ur just bigoted' shit.

[cherryblossombombs]

I have an issue with the "the giga cover is likely fujobait" because I can't help but think:

if it was truly fujobait, why now?

Why try to get their attention if MHA is now in the 100M club? The series now so popular, hori/jump doesn't need queer shippers to increase its popularity.

Why try to get fujos and queer fans, if it's already popular in that group? Wasn't it apparently shown that MHA is more popular with women and LGBTQ+ fans?

Why try to get that audience when hori had the chance to do that back in 2016-2018 when Kr//bk was the popular gay ship? Wasn't there an interview where someone pretty much asked hori if he's for kr//bk, but instead of playing along, hori made it about bkdk (the ship that no one took seriously at the time) and said he saw the hand hold more about bkdk angst. Kr//bk was a popular ship, it had bones making official art of them. The smash parody manga had moments of it. Two heroes was their movie [I believe hori didn't really help in that movie. However, notice how in the second movie, (he was a part of that one), focused on bkdk (again, the ship no one took seriously)]. Hori had the ability to use that ship as bait, but he seemed to be the only one out of everyone else to not go for it. Instead he kept pushing for the ship that was thought to be too toxic to even become a platonic ship.

If horikoshi did not want bkdk to seen as romantic, why isn't he stopping jump for implying it? You really can't say that he has no ability to, the guy went to bones and told them the ending. Now, notice how bones suddenly stopped making iz//ch moments and added a bkdk moment in the recap episodes (something that they would never do 2 seasons prior). The assistant (whom hori is friends with) is a loud speaker of dkbk lol. Hori follows him on twitter, there's no way that hori hasn't seen his dkbk art once. Same for katsuki's JP VA (who is also a friend of Hori).

Why try to bait the audience when the manga is ending?

Idk, maybe there's a chance he is actually queerbaiting and make iz//ch canon, but again, after everything?

After the togachako arc? He had made ochako confess her crush on midoriya, only for seconds later to not only brush it off as unimportant (unimportant in the sense of it was more of way to relate to toga and speak with her, it wasn't really used as a "canon izu//ocha" moment), she tells toga that she could have ochako's blood for the rest of her life (and we know that's toga's love language of returning/accepting her feelings) and she told toga that she had the cutest smile in the whole world. Like, didn't hori say that toga was made for ochako's character? I feel like it wouldn't make sense for hori to do all of this, then have ochako end up with midoriya, it would feel like a middle finger to toga tbh.

After chapters 285, 322, 362, 367, 403, and 404? The apology? The "you're the closest one to midoriya izuku, therefore I need to kill you in order to make him go crazy". The heart shaped black whip after seeing bakugou's dying body? The "their feelings became one" double spread? this bullet point could be spread to about 2-3 document pages, but I'm just going to summarize for this post lol. But overall, these chapters (and a few more), show me (imo) that it the "fujobait" claim isn't really strong to use against bkdk.

Again, maybe this is queerbait, because I know that there are times where other media/anime have done simliar and still had the MC in a heterosexual relationship, and leave everyone dumbfounded lol. Once again, all I say to this is "let's see what happens."

P.S. Isn't this the same author who said that he thought that naruto was going to end at 698 (the implied SNS ending) lol? Idk if it's true, that's just something I've heard.

[eisforeidolon]

MISHA IS SUPERNATURAL BIGGEST MISTAKE.

CASTIEL COULD HAVE BEEN AN INTERESTING CHARACTER, IF HE HAD BEEN PLAYED BY A TALENTED AND PROFESSIONAL ACTOR. ESPECIALLY PROFESSIONAL AND SERIOUS.

WE DON'T DESERVE MISHA'S LIES AND QUEERBAITING.

BUT I THINK THAT MISHA ONLY TALENTS ARE LYING TO PEOPLE AND QUEERBAITING HIS DESTIEL FANS FOR MONEY. THIS ARE THE ONLY THINGS HE KNOWS HOW TO DO.

DESTIEL ISN'T CANON. JENSEN SAID THAT SO MANY TIMES.

HE EVEN SAID THAT WHEN HE WAS ASKED ABOUT "THE CONFESSION 'S RESOLUTION".

HE SAID THAT THERE WAS NOTHING TO BE RESOLVED. BECAUSE EVEN IF THE "CONFESSION " WAS ROMANTIC, FOR DEAN NOTHING WOULD CHANGE.

DEAN ISN'T IN LOVE WITH CASTIEL. HE ADDRESSES CASTIEL AS DEAN 'S FRIEND AND ONE OF THE PEOPLE CLOSEST TO HIM. BUT THAT'S IT.

JENSEN NEVER ADDRESSES CASTIEL AS DEAN'S POTENTIAL LOVE INTEREST.

JENSEN (AND JARED) SAID MANY TIMES THAT SUPERNATURAL IS ABOUT SAM AND DEAN AND THEIR DEEP BOND AND UNCONDITIONAL LOVE.

15X20 IS THE PROOF OF THAT LOVE. WINCEST IS MORE CANON THAN DESTIEL WILL EVER BE.

I'M TALKING ABOUT PLATONIC LOVE OF COURSE.

I SHIP WINCEST BUT UNLIKE THE HELLERS I KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WHAT IS CANON AND WHAT IS JUST A FANTASY.

15x20 SHOWS TO THE VIEWER THE ESSENCE OF THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN SAM AND DEAN.

SPOILER FOR 15X20.

SPOILER FOR 15X20

SPOLER FOR 15X20

DEAN DIES, BUT EVEN IN HIS LAST MOMENTS HE COMMITS HIMSELF TO ONLY LOVE SAM. HE SAYS HE LOVES HIM AND THAT IT'S ALWAYS BEEN THEM TOGETHER AGAINST THE WORLD.

" IT'ALWAYS BEEN YOU... AND ME". THAT'S WHAT DEAN SAYS.

THE PAUSE IN THAT PHRASE, THE WAY THEY EMBRACE, THE FOREHEAD TOUCH. EVERYTHING IN THE SCENE IS POINTING TO WHO IS WATCHING THAT DEAN GREATEST LOVE IS SAM.

THIS IS A CONFESSION. PLATONIC AND SO BEAUTIFUL. BETTER THAN ANY OTHER "ROMANTIC" CONFESSION THAT I EVER SEEN OR I EVER HEARD.

END SPOILER FOR 15X20.

OF COUSE DEAN IS ALSO SAM GREATEST LOVE, BUT I WANTED TO GIVE MY ATTENTION TO DEAN 'S BEHAVIOUR TOWARDS SAM VS DEAN BEHAVIOUR TOWARD CASTIEL IN THEIR LAST SCENE TOGETHER. THERE IS NO COMPARISON BETWEEN THE TWO.

WE ALL KNOW THAT SUPERNATURAL WAS ALWAYS ABOUT SAM AND DEAN AND THAT A LOVE STORY CAN BE ABOUT TWO BROTHER WHO SAVED EACH OTHER AND FOUGHT MONSTERS, EVIL CREATURES, DEMONS, ANGELS, THE DEVIL AND GOD FOR STAYING WITH EACH OTHER.

OF COURSE WE CANNOT SAY SAM AND DEAN WITHOUT TALKING ABOUT JARED AND JENSEN. THEIR ACTING, THEIR CHEMISTRY INSIDE THE SHOW AND OUTSIDE TOO, THEIR KINDNESS, IS WHAT MAKES SUPERNATURAL A SHOW THAT CHANGED MY LIFE.

I ALWAYS GET EMOTIONAL ABOUT THIS SHOW. THAT'S WHY I CAN'T STAND PEOPLE LIKE MISHA WHO ALWAYS SAYS SHIT ABOUT THE SHOW AND THE ACTORS ( JARED AND JENSEN)

THANK YOU FOR LISTENING TO MY RANT, SORRY FOR MY ENGLISH, IT ISN'T MY FIRST LANGUAGE, AND I HOPE THAT I DIDN'T ANNOY YOU OR BOTHERED YOU.

MAY LOVE AND KINDNESS ALWAYS FIND YOU.

I have to agree. Also, your English is fine and I definitely understand the need to rant about all this nonsense sometimes, that's why I've got this blog! <3

I do actually feel like Misha was a perfectly serviceable actor way back at the beginning. I even get why they decided to keep him around when he proved popular with the fandom. It was indeed proven a mistake in so, so many ways as time went on, though.

Yeah, first and most egregious is the kind of person Misha turned out to be - or at least turned into after so many years of fans blowing smoke up his ass. A bitter, entitled, ungrateful, lazy backstabber who is perfectly comfortable telling blatantly obvious and contradictory self-serving lies and nonsense. Whether that's about the ship or his relative importance to the show directly, whether that's skeevy sexual comments about Jensen/Dean, whether that's trying to paint Jared as some kind of evil bully that abused him. He keeps proving again and again there is no bar he won't limbo under.

Next is I think his performance on the show and what his continued presence on the show resulted in plot-wise from the writers. He was fine at first when he was just playing a non-human mysterious figure that only appeared now and then and had a major role in the whole structure of the apocalypse. He even had a pretty good arc leading up to the Leviathans. The problem was they kept him around as a "fan favorite" after that when they really didn't have anything for him to do but eat up screen time to give J2 time off. Would we have really gotten so much bad, circular angel politics if there wasn't a need to give Castiel something to do to keep Misha employed? I personally doubt it. Even worse than that, though? As time went on, Misha seemed to recognize that his only relevance was baiting shippers and wasting time and leaned into turning Castiel into the type of character he gets written as in so much bad D/C fanfic - a pathetic mostly human woobie who is completely useless for anything but the projection of bizarre teen romance fantasies that don't make any damn sense. Which culminated in that bizarre ambiguous queerbait he and Bobo the Clown cooked up for Castiel's exit. Which doesn't even touch his later seasons' presumable attempts at acting where his choices for Lucifer!Castiel & AU!Castiel & Empty!Castiel were all ... entirely made up of bad accents and gurning. It wasn't about any of those character's motivations or places in the narrative, it was about the laziest possible attempt to differentiate them from his normal character. Even in latter season's SPN, which IMNSHO had so, so many issues dragging things down, Misha's lack of interest in anything but the size of his paychecks and con earnings played into some of the worst.

Which brings us to D/C and the whole supposedly canon thing. Canon is literally what happened. D/C didn't happen, it's that simple. Castiel rambled some ambiguous bullshit about love and got sucked into the Empty while Dean looked bewildered and sad at him from several feet away. Misha can make up as many stories about what the character was totally thinking and how he was totally coming back in the finale and queerbaiting about what will totes happen in a revival, but not a word of it actually makes what Castiel said "I'm IN love with you". Nor does it magically manifest a reciprocation from Dean. What doesn't happen on screen but actors or TPTB say about the canon is often called Word of God. Which yes, Misha's does not outweigh everything Jensen and Jared and various showrunners have clearly said. Jensen might have gotten less confrontational about shooting it down over the years, but the underlying message hasn't changed. Meanwhile, not only do the details of Misha's stories constantly change, but the general message of his claims has flip flopped so many times. The show was about the brothers, no actually the brothers and the angel! He joked about wincest, no actually he'd never heard of it! He didn't want to say what that scene meant, no actually feel free to attack anyone who says it wasn't a homosexual declaration of love! There's more, but Misha's not worth the effort of looking them up.

As you say, at the end of the day, anyone watching the totality of the show and seeing how it ended? It's very obvious the center of the story was a platonic love story. A complicated one, granted, but Sam and Dean so many times made it very clear that it was them ... and everyone else. Except in the same way that acknowledging that doesn't serve the hellers agenda in demanding a continuation must center their ship so they can finally have visuals to go with their fanfic, acknowledging that doesn't serve Misha's agenda of fleecing them out of money for telling them it will happen for as long as he can get away with it.

[will80sbyers]

i will never understand why people feel the liberty and the necessity (apparently??) to have a problem with people who ship something that isn't canon. it's none of their business? the whole point of ships is that they don't have to be canon??? and also who tf cares and what difference does it make whether we are "delusional" anyway? it really shouldn't harm anyone for us to believe what we do.

besides its hardly delusional. it's not like we invented all of the parallels and storylines and character arcs and the prevalence of homophobia and repression in the 80s (in other words the possibility for characters to be gay but hiding it (e.g. robin)) we didn't invent all of the choreography and the intentional camera angles and specific shots and lighting symbolism. we didn't invent the onscreen acting between these characters. we didn't invent the s4 promotional posters. and so on and so forth

i just think its annnnoying

even if it were delusional it still wouldn't be their business whether or not we ship it and believe it will happen.

bleugh

We are just readers of the text and subtext of the show and that is THE WHOLE POINT of fandom!

Even if Byler ended up being only queerbait, as you said, we aren't doing anything bad by writing theories about it and interpreting the text, and people acting all concerned to me often give "I'm this bothered because I'm homophobic" vibes tbh 🤨

[epickiya722]

Can I ask your opinion on answer from this :

https://www.tumblr.com/gojuo/742796780522061824/is-satosugu-a-queerbaiting-ship?source=share?

Yes, you can!

The only thing I agree with the post is that SatoSugu isn't queerbaiting. Other than that, I don't particularly agree with anything else at all.

SatoSugu would have been queerbaiting if the ship had been promised to be canon and used as a marketing tool. Gege, from my knowledge, never said anything about making them an actual couple by the end of the series. At most, Gege wrote characters that do have this relationship that can be interpreted as romantic if one chooses. They do have a lot of romantic undertones, but it's more so for telling a story than just "I need readers".

And saying the fandom is queerbaiting using SatoSugu is... odd.

The fandom can't make the marketing decisions of what happens with JJK. Now, a person can lie and say "oh, SatoSugu kissed in episode whatever", but that doesn't mean they're queerbaiting. They're just lying.

Now, yes, we indeed have a lot of merchandise with Satoru and Suguru, but we gotta take in consideration as to what season we just finished.

The Hidden Inventory Arc which centers around the two and the Shibuya Incident Arc which most of what happened was because of those two. (Satoru getting locked up because he saw Suguru's face, MY GUY WAS TRICKED!!)

And it's not like we don't get merchandise of other characters.

Honestly, the answer of that ask just sounds mean-spirited. "(Majority) stsg shippers are just annoying as fuck because they genuinely believe their ship is canon, try to force their headcanons and misinterpretations of the material down everyone's throats, and send death threats to anyone who dares to ship Gojo with literally anyone else."

As done every other shipper, let's not kid ourselves now.

For anyone who seen my BNHA posts about ships, you know that I believe any shipper is capable of doing this. Now I don't doubt that a SatoSugu could do this. But there have been other shippers who have attacked SatoSugu shippers for the same reasons.

Hell, I just had someone try to make my NobaMaki and ShokoHime post about YutaMaki and I didn't mention his ass in that post. Like, damn, let the girls have the spotlight. Yuta ain't all that for you to throw him onto every single thing where he's not mentioned. (I like Yuta, folks, calm down.)

Also, I don't see a problem with a SatoSugu shippers believing their ship is canon. If they want to, let them. If you don't like it, skip along.

Another thing they said is how just because Gege doesn't do fanservice of his female characters doesn't mean he's above being misogynistic.

Okay, we got to stop throwing that word around.

I don't know how Gege personally and I won't say Gege (okay, has Gege actually confirmed their gender?) can't be misogynistic.

But using the writing material as an example is just kinda getting played out.

(I also dislike the JJK - Naruto comparison in general, it's gotten to the point that's a pet peeve of mine.)

The thing with the female characters here is that they feel like characters, not added accessories. Hell, some of the male characters actually feel more like an accessory to the story than some of the female ones.

Gege isn't afraid to write a complex character like Mei Mei. Nobara isn't written to be some generic love interest and chase some guy. Instead, she got her own morals, goals and even a whole backstory that we did get some insight on before Shibuya. We haven't see Nobara in a while, but remember what happened to her? Yeah, we probably won't see her for a while.

Hell, we haven't seen or heard anything about TODO AOI since Shibuya, but Nobara has been shown to be thought about by Yuji and Megumi.

Maki is more developed than Toge, a male character we haven't seen since when.

Uro was only in a few chapters but she was more entertaining during her fight against Ryu and Yuta than Ryu was. And she didn't die!

You know sometimes a fandom will say a creator is misogynistic for killing off a female character as if it's illegal for her to die because SHE IS STILL PART OF THE CAST and as if more male characters haven't been killed. And died in lame ways. And some of those male characters, again, didn't get the development female characters did.

No two female characters feel the same, that's just me.

The OP talked about how Shoko and how Gege should have developed her more. "Had he given Shoko the same care and love he's given to the boys, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now. Because that would mean that the fujos would have to engage with her character and her dynamic with other characters in a meaningful way."

Shoko isn't like Suguru and Satoru though. Out if the three, she was the most "stable".

Also, the reason we didn't get a lot of her during that arc is because she was often isolated because of her technique. Shoko herself is a victim due to how things are ran. She was isolated from her friends very often and later years, we see she has eyebags. She barely is getting sleep.

And the thing is... Gege does acknowledge her relationship with the SatoSugu even later in the manga.

She herself comments that when Suguru left, Satoru wasn't alone. She was there.

Of course, Suguru and Satoru were closer. They had to spend a lot of time together. When they started to drift, that's when things definitely went downhill.

I have seen many SatoSugu shippers actually acknowledge Shoko's existence more than anyone else (besides actual Shoko fans). And they often include her being close to SatoSugu and even include her romantically with the two. (Here for it.) She'll sometimes be the one to give advice, expected, but sometimes in fics and whatnot she is written as a person than just a tool to push SatoSugu together. I have seen people draw fanart of her being involved with the situation with the Hasaba Twins.

I have yet to see a SatoSugu shipper actually hate her and deny her existence.

I'll tell you a person I often do see get ignored when it comes to SatoSugu. And that's Yaga. A male character. It's not all the time he gets ignored by the fandom, but he's more ignored than Shoko, I'll tell you that.

This is gonna sound mean, probably, but I don't think that question should be asked about anything pertaining to SatoSugu given the post is tagged "anti". Interesting as it is to see someone else's POV who doesn't ship SatoSugu, I just... eh...

[jenny-from-the-bau]

Honestly from what I’ve seen on Twitter, I think the cheating thing was more of a joke than anything (not denying that some people genuinely feel that way though). I feel like most people have generally been saying that 17x06 was a good set up for Jemily to actually happen and that they want it to develop from there, not that it needs to be instant. Also the queerbaiting allegations seem to be more directed at the cm social media etc for interacting with shippy posts and responding in ways teasing the ship (e.g. saying that they ship Jemily too) but then referring it to as just a friendship later and the show seemingly having no intention of making the ship canon. Of course whether it’s actually queerbaiting is kind of debatable but I guess people feel like they’re being used for views.

Idk if we're seeing the same tweets, but every time I go on twitter, there's genuine anger and vitriol. People saying JJ needs to just cheat so Will is gone, wishing Will dead, saying that they don't want JJ and Emily being together unless it's canon (romantically), etc etc. It all seems very real and genuinely harmful. I've seen way more people saying they hated 17x06 because Jemily didn't become canon than anyone saying it was a good episode.

Also, like, I understand that it can be frustrating to see the CM accounts say they ship Jemily, but that doesn't translate to "because it's going to happen." A PR account isn't in the fandom. They're interacting with popular posts, and they may even ACTUALLY ship Jemily, but that really doesn't mean anything. It's never been said that Jemily is going to be made canon. No one has said that, I'm pretty sure.

Jemily IS a great friendship. The ultimate moment WAS wonderful and heartfelt and funny and fulfilling. They're best friends and they're there for each other through thick and thin. That doesn't mean they love each other romantically and they probably never will. JJ is happily married, and she also has an amazing, deeply fulfilling friendship with Emily.

Interacting with "shippy posts" isn't a promise or hint or anything like that. It's actually awesome that they're acknowledging queer fans and talking about queer ships! That's crazy to me, as someone who grew up with Rizzoli and Isles and Swan Queen. We're a valid audience!! That doesn't mean it's going to be canon, though. Romantic Jemily has never been promised.

Being acknowledged as fans of a ship in a positive way isn't the same as being used for views. Are the showrunners wrong for thinking that we love JJ and Emily as characters? Are they wrong for thinking that we want to see them be happy and close?

Want a queer ship on CM? Tara and Rebecca are right there! Why are they not good enough for people??

JJ and Emily are a wonderful, wonderful example of adult female friendship, and how important it is to care for your friends when you also have a romantic partner and a family.

[lover-of-mine]

On the question of the new viewers. Let me preface with after getting burned bad I made a promise I would never ship Canon straight characters as queer ships ever again. It just comes into play to understand the readers digest version of this. Yes I was always aware of the Buddie ship and the actors but that was it

I accidentally started season 6. It just came on, and I just didnt look away. Here's how it went.

I actually saw the lasagna dinner scene and thought wait they went Canon? That's them right? Then quickly realized. Nope 2 straight besties. Bucks a cool uncle (didn't know about will scene forgive me). And proceeded to not get attached.

Actually easy because they separated them a bit. But then there was the lightening strike and poker date and I was like oh somethings happening. I was wrong they had the dopey ass ending and I was like bless me for not getting invested.

Then.... It was a year wait!!!!!! So it was a boredom tune back in. I was pleased to see Bucks bi story. I thought the first kiss was charming. Then he was just there. I left the season thinking Eddie was tragically in love with his dead wife and Buck was experimenting.

If I didn't go back to binge I would have gone into 8 with these expectations. Eddie either excepting he was a tragic single father forever. Buck, yes probably seeing Tommy, but no I was not a shipper. Firstly because of appearance. I have no problem with age difference but with them I just don't like it. Tommy seems older and rougher. On the flip side personality. That Tommy wasn't what I pictured Bucks end game as like at all. I wanted someone like Spencer Reid if it wasn't Eddie.

But... . I did go back and binge. S1 was a trip. Got to S2. Saw the opening. Went duh I get why they ship them, but you ain't getting me. Until the elf scene. I really was good. But right after the elf scene I remembered hearing how Tim wrote it as a nod and double checked.. Remember, it would be weird to see the scene and know Tim knows after knowing full well yes Buck would come out queer. So it really was a no brainer after that. No way Tim created this in S2 if they weren't end game if there was ever a chance.

Then came the well, tsunami, shooting, will reveal, break ups, co dependant idiots and finally caught back to the lasagna and lightening. Also seeing how much Eddie isn't a reliable narrator about his relationship with Shannon. The version I got at the end of 7 is not what was happening on my screen in 2. I would almost label it a red herring depending on how this plays out in 8. Also after watching the begin episodes I understood anyone's frustration that Tommy was just white washed.

Final conclusion. Not even trying to sound condescending but I don't know why the other side even thinks this is a "ship war". I was late and I never hated Tommy but I would have never shipped them as end game. I couldn't even tell if Tommy actually liked Buck. I was left with the ick of Buck was a consolation prize or second choice and Buck was trying way to hard. Taking scraps and being grateful. Maybe because I binged it was more fresh but it was more of how little self respect Buck had for himself in trying to be in a relationship.

And if anyone finished reading that you deserve an award.

This is an interesting view of things, I think if you only have the s7 context, you will see them differently because the whole Kim thing really messes with the perception of Eddie and love, thank you for coming and telling me this, really.

But this kinda made me talk about my experience with buddie, so I'm gonna do that, because I think it's funny. I didn't know much about the show, but I knew of buddie, I started watching during the hiatus between 5a and 5b and during that time there was some big talk about queerbaiting going around and I know of them next to ships like destiel and stucky and destiel, I had just read an article on queerbaiting that had a section talking about them, so I kinda assumed buddie would be the same as they had enough context to create a ship but not enough for it to have a real chance of going canon, so I was set on not shipping them. Like, I was legit ready to roll my eyes and see that Buck and Eddie with their respective female love interests and be like "okay they are never going anywhere" but then an elf pretty much calls them gay as Eddie justifies sleeping with his wife 10 episodes in and I was like "oh oh" because they have a compelling friendship and I'm a sucker for best friends to lovers, but I was fighting it, until the tsunami, because seriously, I watched Eddie go "there's nobody in this world I trust with my son more than you" after a situation where no one would blame Eddie if he needed time and I was done for. Then they just kept getting more insane about each other. I remember watching the will reveal and being like "wait, fuck me, are they gonna go there?" because they follow all the basic procedural slowburn tropes, and I started s5 being like 👀 about everything that was happening to them. Now that Buck is bi, I'm seriously 95% sure buddie is happening because all the elements are there. There is something very compelling about Buck and Eddie together when you look at the whole show and s7 really added to that. Settling for Buck in a relationship with someone who's clearly not that into him just because it's a queer relationship doesn't feel right when Eddie is right there.

[olderthannetfic]

its funny to me how people try to blame the audiences for not having more and better representation.

for example rhaenicent imo is a queerbait ship but i see a lot of bi women and lesbians feeling represented in those intense feelings of 'are we just friends or...' that can span for years, and if they find representation in it good for them.

going to these people and saying "you should not watch house of the dragon you should watch this more queer show because rhaenicent will never happen on screen and you're doing a disservice to queer creators by not watching their shows" is an insane position to have and an insane thing to do.

you can say whatever you want about how audience matters bla bla bla but the reason the more queer show is not as popular as house of the dragon is because the studios and the streaming services don't care about those stories. they would rather reboot an old IP than invest in something new, and the rhaenicent shipper on tumblr has virtually no power in shifting those scales.

and i used rhaenicent as example but this goes to everything else too. if you're mad a ship is getting popular and your thing is not getting popular and you're getting mad to the point that you'd go around and start insulting people who like it, you gotta get outside pal.

and when i say 'insulting people who like it' i also mean sending asks here blaming people for not watching the 'right and better queer representation'

--

Eh. This does happen, but far more often, I see people complaining about something adjacent but not quite the same: Fans losing their shit when a ship doesn't go canon and/or saying that there's nothing out there.

I totally get the draw of big budget live action and how annoying it is that the shit I want isn't the shit that gets funding to that level.

But I also roll my eyes when people aren't interested in supporting the media that has whatever element they're after just because it isn't as hot a water cooler discussion topic.