#also how do you think Viserys or Otto would have handled it? or rhaenyra and daemon if it was one of her sons being accused?

[alicentflorent]

Genuine question for the hotd fandom in general - what could Alicent have done differently when it came to Dyana’s rape? What would have been a better but realistic outcome for Dyana?

[darklinaforever]

Daemon as father :

- Seems to want children in general, but not in the state of his marriage to Rhea Royce.

- Teaches Baela high Valyrian himself.

-Shares a goodnight kiss with Baela, and continues to watch her as she walks away.

- Daemon kissing Laena's baby bump.

- Rhaena saying Daemon ignores her.

- Laena replying that in reality he is doing his best.

- Daemon completely unsure how to handle Laena's traumatic death with Baela and Rhaena.

- Daemon telling Viserys that Pentos is his home and that of his children, therefore his daughters.

- Daemon subtly checking where Baela and Rhaena are when he returns from his intimate moment with Rhaenyra in the great hall of Drifmark.

- Daemon who agrees to honor Laena's will by sending Baela as Rhaenys' ward to know the part of her heritage linked to Drifmark (in addition to obviously wanting to calm Rhaenys in relation to Laenor).

- Daemon maintains a corresponds with his daughter Baela.

- Daemon having kept Rhaena by his side in Dragonstone.

- Daemon caressing Rhaenyra's baby bump.

- Daemon defending the position of heir of Drifmark of his stepson Lucerys.

- Daemon looking proud to present his sons Aegon III and Viserys II.

- Daemon stroking Viserys II's hair.

- Daemon who tries to console Viserys II when he cries.

- Daemon decapitates Vaemond for insulting his stepsons of bastard.

- Daemon who agrees to marry Baela & Rhaena to Jace & Luke, therefore allowing his daughters a good marriage, both politically speaking and with good people.

- Daemon who seems proud that Lucerys finally has his place as future lord of Drifmark assured.

- Daemon seems particularly happy and cheerful to toast the engagement of his daughters and sons-in-law.

- Daemon who stops the fight led by his daughter Baela and his stepsons Luke and Jace against Aegon II and Aemond.

- Daemon who shows Jace what the definition of true loyalty is.

- Daemon who defends the position of heir to the Iron Throne that Jace has.

- Daemon who collapses on the beach after the death of his stillborn daughter Visenya.

- Daemon watching Baela & Rhaena during baby Visenya's funeral.

- Daemon who walks towards Rhaenyra to announce the death of Lucerys, looking sad but also looking like he is wiping away a tear.

- Cut scene, seen as canonical by the directors of HOTD, where Baela says that she is a dragon rider, like her father, in addition to her mother and Rhaenys, with pride. Which wouldn't make sense if she didn't have a good relationship with her father.

- Not counting all the positive cut scenes whose photos have been revealed, and also the other positive scenes from the original script also cut...

- Visibly resentful / bitter towards Rhaenys to whom he reproaches that she could have exterminated the Greens and that thus Lucerys would still be alive. [S2]

TG logic : Daemon is the worst father ever ! He doesn't love his children and only cares about himself !

Corlys : Ready to marry off his daughter when she hasn't even had her period yet, so she is still a child for their world, all in order to get closer to the Iron Throne. Don't accept that his son is gay. Wants to marry his son Laenor to Rhaenyra, even though he knows it would potentially be a bad marriage and Rhaenys warns him that as the husband of Rhaenyra, the heir to the throne, Laenor could be in danger in the future.

Otto : Essentially pimping his daughter by forcing her to visit Viserys secretly in his chambers (something which could greatly damage his daughter's reputation, particularly her virtue, if it became known, so basically, it could totally ruin her for in eyes of the society), so that Viserys becomes attached to her enough to want to marry her, that she bears his future children, and therefore potentially put his own lineage at him on the Iron Throne.

Basically, Corlys and Otto think : Are we jokes for you ?!

Logical conclusion therefore for Daemon : A correct but imperfect father.

Aegon II as father :

- Never seemed to want children.

- Didn't seem interested in them.

- Doesn't seem interested in them once he has them. (legitimate children)

- Don't share any scenes with them.

- Has no dialogue referring to his children.

- Rape their nanny.

- Enjoys watching his illegitimate children fight in arenas to survive.

- Wishes to leave Westeros without any mention of his children and therefore officially leave them behind.

- Does not, to our knowledge, have any type of positive deleted scenes related to his children, nor any positive dialogue or description from the original script between him and his children.

- Differentiates his daughter from his son (now this boy he his heir for the throne I remember) who are twins when he sees them from the front. [S2]

- Doesn't seem interested in his daughter. [S2]

- Does not know that his son is taking lessons or where they take place. [S2]

- When he is finally with his son, he lifts him up to prevent him from going up the steps of the council room, smiling. [S2]

- Then smiled again while watching his son try to play with a ball once seated. [S2]

TG logic : Aegon II is such a good father who loves all his children ! He his so a family men ! Much better than anything Daemon will ever be on this subject !

Logical Conclusion : Aegon II is a father who doesn't care about all his children and is clearly absent from their lives, now only caring about his son because he is now his heir to the Iron Throne.

[darkpoisonouslove]

HotD S02E02

My thoughts are still all over the place. I wasn't able to watch the episode yesterday and seeing some very vague spoilers had me shaking with curiosity and the need to watch it. It was my first order of business for today and I did like this more than last episode! Of course, the writers will never not be on their Blacks agenda but that could never stop me from loving the Greens even more. And believe it or not, I wasn't super annoyed by the Blacks this episode. Except for Daemon, of course. More about it all under the cut:

The chaos in the beginning and that bloodied sheet did more than showing any actual gore would have imo. And later in the episode when they're taking apart the crib and you see a man carrying a white mattress and you know it will be bloody on the other side only for him to turn it around and the sight still gut-punching you despite that. Especially because the mattress is so small; it's clearly for a child. Ohhhhhhhhhhh.

Aegon smashing the Valyria Lego set was 10/10. Good for him! Unfortunately, I made the mistake of looking at people's opinions and the idea that that's a symbol of him destroying Viserys' legacy and being rash and unfit to be king to differ from his father is just… Lesson learned! Do NOT fucking engage with any HotD content that's out in the wild and hasn't come from my carefully curated tumblr circle.

That said, yes, this is Aegon destroying Viserys' work and thank god! Aegon is rightfully mad about what has been done to his child to differ from Viserys, who just stood by and did fuck all when his son was mutilated. I may not agree with the way Aegon proceeded to handle things but at least he fucking did something! Take notes, Viserys!

That Otto and Alicent scene! The way he (belatedly) tries to offer some kind of comfort and she pushed him away because she's drowning in guilt! She thinks this is all because of her and she doesn't want any comfort, especially since there won't be any for Helaena (and Aegon). I am SOBBING!

That Small Council meeting! I could never put all my emotions and thoughts about it in words but it was just… VERY GOOD! I love how Aegon brings up the fact that Rhaenyra's sons are bastards right before throwing a cup. Because what was he doing when the murder of his son was happening? He was drinking and mocking his nephews while trying to come up with titles for himself. He feels guilty but he cannot express that in any capacity just like he's not afforded enough space for his grief and anger. There's always the next thing that has to be done, the next performance to be acted out. Every move has to be calculated in order to benefit him and his family rather than harm them and he's just… not good at that. In general. But also, in this specific moment it's completely understandable that he's not good at that. He shouldn't have to be! Alicent herself lost her temper when her child was mutilated and she got burned too. Oh, this must be awful for her to watch and still have to guide Aegon away from his outbursts.

(If anyone wants to come after Criston for having sex with Alicent, you can fuck right off! The man cannot be expected to be guarding the family 24/7 and it was made clear that it wasn't his watch at that time. Even if it was, he guards Alicent's chambers so he still wouldn't have been able to do anything. The writers just decided to remove all the guards from the premises and would now love to throw the blame onto Criston. Same with that "why wasn't Helaena given a sworn protector?" line. Because then they would have actually needed to write something clever instead of employing the most brain dead conveniences, silly! Why else?)

Larys interrupting like "Hello! I have been efficient! :)"

Love when Aegon went "Hey, you know what? Maybe I should kill everyone!" I knew he'd do that!. He's such a volatile little shit and YET… cannot even compare with his grandfather.

Otto in this episode is hateable and yet so, so correct and necessary. I loved all of that. He is such an opportunist and that's why he's been in the game for so long! And his advice makes total sense on a strategic level. All they have to do is disregard all their emotions like he's guided and coerced them to do all their lives… Sir… SIR… *crying* this is all your fault (I mean the fact that they're all emotionally stunted, not the war (though to be fair, he's largely responsible for that too)). Sir, the monster that you are.

I especially adore the contrast between Aegon and Otto. In the face of such unmoved calculation, Aegon's pain is front and center of the scene. He doesn't want his son to be used as a prop to win the war. And he turns to Alicent for advice because he knows that she has empathy and understands his emotions, his agony, that she's not pure strategy like her father only for her to tell him that they have to be strategic at the moment and then end up forced into the performance herself. The way that she keeps enabling Otto's exploitation of their lowest moments because that's all they've ever done, because they're trapped in this song and dance now.

It becomes even more cutting in the scenes with Helaena, who just wants her pain to be private, doesn't want to be gawked at by people she doesn't know. Them sharing her pain doesn't bring any consolation because they're not sharing anything. To them she's a symbol and even if they understand the pain of losing a child, they cannot understand her pain of losing her child. Only Aegon can and not in the exact same capacity as her so in the end, they just stare at each other without words and then keep on walking past one another. But the way that she had a panic attack at so much freely given "sympathy" for her pain only to search for some from him and he can't really offer it because they don't speak the same language and he cannot let his guard down in that way and be vulnerable when he's already been weakened as king and no one takes him seriously, and he's grappling for any shred of power, hungering for any violence he can do to someone just to feel a little bit less helpless, and he knows that that's not what she needs and he can give her nothing, which just makes him feel even weaker… Nnnnnnnngh, I am howling in pain!!!!!

The way Blood was acting all tough and menacing last episode only to instantly spill everything just at the sight of Larys was peak performance! Shows how pathetic he is and how scary Larys is. He has worked for that reputation and people really should be afraid of him. But then Aegon steps onto the scene and just bashes that guy's head in. Any wonder Criston and Aegon have teamed up to head the Club of Bad Decisions?

I have to admit that I thoroughly enjoyed the fight between Daemon and Rhaenyra. I like that she said she's never fully trusted him and that she was visibly afraid of him and expected him to try to choke her again. Only other thing that should have happened was her feeding Daemon to her dragon tbh (yes, we're back to the Daemon hate).

Initially, I found the scene between Rhaenyra and Baela touching but then I remembered that Rhaenyra didn't allow Jace to scout King's Landing, probably being afraid he'd be killed like Luke, but it's okay to send Baela, I guess. Who cares if she dies? I did want to take this as her trusting Baela but I just cannot gloss over the fact that she was so swift to forbid Jace from doing the exact thing that she's sending Baela to do.

Not Criston projecting like crazy onto Ser Arryk. I have to admit that that was amusing. Also, as someone said, that plan to assassinate Rhaenyra is "not the worst" that has ever been hatched around these parts.

I liked the scene with Jace and Baela for the fact that she knows about him being a bastard and they talk so openly about it. Both of them have gotten nothing so far and they are also trapped in performances (just like team Green) that this was interesting but also… I can't latch onto any character conflicts or development when we've barely seen anything from those characters.

Aemond, my man, you desperately need to be teleported to a therapist. Those mommy issues are running rampant! The fact that he was so angry at Alicent last episode only to then show that he completely understands why she was mad at him in this one and say all those things that he should have said to her to someone, who's clearly meant to represent Alicent. This would all be 10 000x more efficient if he just said all that to his mother but he just cannot because he cannot be vulnerable in front of her when she's disappointed with him since he's so used to being Mommy's Special Boy. Him and Aegon are such foils in that regard.

Am I the only one who got the impression that Rhaenys is ready to get into some Otto Hightower-type shit and "guide" Rhaenyra to where she wants her?

I'm getting tired of typing so let's wrap this up. Aegon's course of actions is not the smartest but I cannot blame him for it… too much. But seriously, showing the dog mourning Cheese was fucking awful. That dog should be trying to scale the wall and rip his corpse apart after he kicked it last episode. Get the fuck out of here with this!

I was very much cackling during that enire scene with Aegon and Otto. Otto may dislike it all he wants but the two of them are much more similar than he'd like to admit. The second they are hurt, they bring out all their cruelty to strike back. But also, Otto's "the apocalypse is upon us" faces were absolutely priceless! I do want him to stay simply for the fact that he always stirs so much shit but at this point the events don't need his help and Criston and Aegon are absolutely going to Fuck Shit Up TM so things are good anyway.

The Erryk and Arryk fight was crazy! There's zero way to tell who's who but the fact that another guard showed up and instead of leading Rhaenyra away to a safe place (and finding reinforcements) after she was almost sis kebabed twice… makes me think that all the guards are just stupid. There's just a force in Westeros that affects all guards and makes them absolute morons.

I did know spoilers about the book, though, so I was wondering how this will go down. Since obviously both of them had to die but that scene was having a clear winner. I did not expect him to take himself out but yeah, that makes sense. Really makes both the twins and their fate so tragic (would have been nice if we'd been led to care more about them while they were still alive, though).

Otto and Alicent having a touching moment and finally truly seeming on the same page and having a genuine understanding between them only for him to cut her off like that again… Ouch!

SURPRISE DAERON MENTION, AAAAAAAAAAAAH! Finally, a sneak attack from the writers that isn't meant to upset me!

Alicent wanting to comfort Aegon and then just… choosing not to as if she's passing down Otto's disapproval and tendency to punish her (whether she's done anything or not) through emotional distance. They are all so damaged! MY BABIES!!!!!!! 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭

The scene with Criston… The kiss was hot but I wish they would actually give them a whole scene where they talk. I cannot believe we got Corlys x Rhaenys pillow talk but we are yet to get anything on Alicent and Criston, who are a newly established relationship. I want to know more about Criston's perspective on this! If he feels so much guilt (which he obviously does), why did he even start this? Let him be a dimensional character with his own agency, dammit! I don't like how they are making him look like Alicent's lost little puppy dog the way he just doesn't really display any kind of agency in their interactions. And the way that they've ended both episodes with them having sex even though Alicent said they wouldn't anymore/was angry at him makes it look like the narrative is passing judgment. Like "Oh, god, these two are fucking again when everyone else is having a really bad time. Can you believe the nerve? *eye roll*"

That's it for this week. I cannot wait to see how much messier the Greens will get next time. Somehow they keep winning with their characterization despite the writers' best efforts!

[maidragoste]

So rhae has a crush on reader ... DELICIOUS

So now we have ali, rhae, the foot man and harwin im our bag

I dont remember if you especified if she fights (with a sword and stuff) but if she was, she would be very present in the boys lives even more

As the boys grow older (in their child state aka pre-maimed aemond) she would spend time training with alicents children.

The reason of the bullying was because of the love their dear aunt held for some of them and the disregard towards another

Rhaenyra is always trying to be with you someway or another

One time she tried to seduce you amd you didnt even spare her a glance (daemon tought this to be funny)

Lucerys wants to be like you

You always baby your sons so much, you always run to kiss their cheeks

You keep harwin around as a political investment, you want the strong connections (he knows this, but he stays anyways)

You now are more dominant in life, you refuse to let someone take the lead

Otto secretly likes you (youre just as smart as him fr)

This is just my fan made headcannons in a way...i just like this series so much

Btw who do ypu picture as y/n, like your personal view?

Hi

Rhaenyra had a crush on the wife of her son's father, she's very 🤡 (like girl, why did you sleep with her husband instead of confessing that you were jealous?) but I still love her 🤪

Reader: *breathes*

All:

I never said it in any post but I'm sure Reader knows how to fight. I find it hard to believe that Corlys didn't teach her daughter to defend herself against her. She knows how to handle the sword because he and her uncles taught her how to use it. She used to fight with Laenor.

Even so, Reader prefers knives because they are easier to hide and if someone attacks her, no one expects her to have her weapons hidden.

I have the headcanon that when she was little and she accompanied her father and her uncles to sail, a sailor taught her to throw knives.

I can definitely see Reader on the parade ground accompanying the children in her lessons. I would be aware that Criston Cole does not overextend them.

I CAN TOTALLY SEE the reason for the bullying being the fight for Reader's love. I don't feel like she disowns Jacaerys, Lucerys and Joffrey but it is evident that she loves the green children more and that she is more affectionate with them.

I really love your headcanons. Rhaenyra always tries to find an excuse to be with you, she looks forward to every time Viserys orders family dinners because that's the only way you'll agree to have dinner with her and she also takes advantage of your affection for Jace to get him to invite you. to spend time with them.

Rhaenyra wanting to seduce you and Alicent looking at everything furious. Larys is calm because she knows that the princess has no chance with you. And it's true, there's no way you're going to look at Rhaenyra that way again...It's more likely that something will happen between you and Daemon (and that he seems like a hateful man to you) before you have something with Rhaenyra.

Lucerys wanting to be like Reader 🥺🥺 He admires you so much because you keep smiling and being kind to people despite all the whispers from court

Your children are your greatest joy. You love teaching them new things and sharing your family customs with them. It is not a secret that you are a loving mother, you are always happy to hug them or kiss their cheek 🥰🥰

Harwin knows that you will never love him like before, but he is satisfied with being able to continue by your side and not hate him. He is content to be the father of your children.

DEFINITELY OTTO LIKES READER. Well, he doesn't agree with the relationship you have with his daughter (because he is a man of faith) but he likes you and you serve him. He notices how you protect his daughter and his grandchildren, how Aegon listens to you, and how you make people start thinking of Aegon as heir to the throne. You win support for the greens.

I see Reader as someone smart. She always knows what to say to make people happy and to make them trust her, that's why she was always very loved at court.

She also lets people see her as weak. Although she knows how to fight from the affair of Rhaenyra and Harwin the image of Reader. She takes advantage of that and makes the court feel sorry for her so she gets people to start disowning Rhaenyra and Harwin.

People see Reader as a nice and kind person, which shee is but sometimes she is nice to court people that she doesn't really like just to have allies. Larys is the first to notice, she begins to notice how the wrinkles around your eyes aren't as deep when your smile isn't sincere or how your fake laugh tends to be shorter.

By the way, anon, if you want, the next time you write to me, you can choose an emoji (it can be anything except 👾 or 🌺) so I can identify you 😊

I hope you are well anon and that you are happy with my answers 🥰❤️

[gwenllian-in-the-abbey]

Hi! Thanks for your last response. I have another question but more so for the writer in you. In an AU where after both marriages to Daemon and Laenor Rhaenyra has had no children at all but not of her own free will (so no kids with Harwin), how would that affect the characterisation of Viserys, Rhaenyra, Alicent, Aegon?

I have my ideas of course but I'm curious what you think 😀

Okay I had to think about this one a bit but I actually think that in this scenario the Dance probably wouldn't have happened.

If Rhaenyra has no children at all, Aegon is her heir by default. In this situation, it's not really worth risking a war to put Aegon on the throne earlier, especially because Rhaenyra now has an actual vested interest in keeping her brothers alive. The thing is, although sometimes we hear that Rhaenyra had to have children to secure the succession, the succession was secure through her brothers and their children, strictly speaking. Having your very own bloodline on the throne is not strictly necessary (just look at Elizabeth I), it's a want, not something needed for the good of the realm. So in this situation its in Otto and Alicent's best interests just to wait her out. Worst case scenario, Rhaenyra outlives Aegon (and if he's still hard drinking in this world, this isn't unlikely) and Aegon's child succeeds him which means....

If all else remains the same, the thing to do would be to pursue Baela as a bride for Aegon (how convenient for me!). In this scenario Daemon isn't getting any closer to the throne than that unless he attempts to usurp Rhaenyra with the Velaryons, and for all that he sucks I just can't see him doing that. A Baela/Aegon match would be a smart move in any scenario, but in this one it's ideal because the only real threats to the succession now come from the Velaryon line and Daemon's chaotic self, and if you neutralize the Velaryons you neutralize Daemon too because any resistance Daemon could possibly mount would always depend upon Velaryon backing. Otherwise he's just one guy with a dragon. That said, if Rhaenyra dies at a normal-ish age, Daemon is likely going to be long gone by then, so he's really kind of a non-issue in a world where he only has the two daughters by Laena.

Alicent is probably a lot more chill because her sons are not really in any danger. Instead of being obstacles for Rhaenyra, Rhaenyra instead needs them in order to prove that the succession is handled. Rhaenyra might actually have some motivation to bond with Aegon at the very least, seeing as he is her heir. And honestly, it's pretty likely that Aegon is a bit more well adjusted in a world where he doesn't have a sword of damocles hanging over his head the whole time, and in which his mother can just be a regular old slightly neurotic repressed lesbian (and hell, in this scenario maybe she and Rhaenyra could actually have a discreet affair. hmm...). Viserys probably still ignores his non-Rhaenyra children but maybe that fucks them up a bit less because it doesn't feel like he's actually trying to get them killed, it just makes him more of a regular asshole father (if the regular asshole was a king).

In a lot of ways, this would kind of be a win-win scenario, so it's interesting that so many people jump on the "Rhaenyra had to have kids to secure the line of succession, what was she supposed to do, force Laenor??" thing. Clearly Rhaenyra didn't have to have kids, she wanted to, which is absolutely her choice and her right, but it also makes her a lot like her father.

[atopvisenyashill]

i know this is a crazy au but what do you think otto would have done/how would have the dance gone if the velaryon boys were gwayne's bastards instead of harwin's? like say gwayne comes with otto and alicent to kl and somehow gets assigned as rhaenyra's sworn shield and they fall in love etc., and let's say he dies around the same time as canon harwin so rhae still ends up marrying daemon

i don’t know that rhaenyra would marry daemon in this au to be completely real with you. if she’s spent 8-10 years (depending on show vs book canon) in love with Gwayne, I think Otto & Alicent are taking great pains to get rhaenyra on their side somehow. Otto is covertly murdering everyone who says shit about those kids. the hightowers get ahold of the capital way earlier than in canon. alicent is actively poisoning the well re: daemon and probably laena. i think it’s incredibly likely one of them suggests and encourages a match between jace & helaena. almost certain in my eyes that corlys is the one who assassinates gwayne and he’ll have to get creative bc imo otto isn’t sending gwayne away the way viserys/lyonel do, he’s telling gwayne to be more discreet, don’t botch this for us buddy.

like, to be honest, if laenor still dies (no guarantee bc we have no idea why he died!) i think otto suggests a marriage with aegon and after eight years of being so close to the hightowers, she might agree. or like, idk, go for aemond if she’s particularly touchy about the idea of combining her claim with aegon. but yeah, i think if rhaenyra started up an affair with gwayne, it would be because otto dangled him in her face, and otto & alicent arr working overtime to turn her against daemon (and as a byproduct, against laena). even if you factor in some sort of poisoning of gwayne at the same time, laenor is the one who has to get merced, and she has a wildly different relationship with both her siblings and daemon, and i can’t see her marrying daemon if she’s thrown in her lot with the hightowers. i think she’s in a better position to take the capital and gain her siblings as allies here, but i also think she would lose daemon (not the end of the world), and it would put her in jeopardy w the velaryons (definitely an issue) depending on how she handles the bastard babies of it all.

[rise-my-angel]

wait did u had ideas or have ideas on how you would have wrote house of the dragon ( based on that prologue post u mentioned how got did a good job versus hotd telling really nothing)?? i sometimes think about it and someone once mentioned about writing it in the pov of the great houses and i just kept thinking bc i personally would have liked seeing something like; showing the targaryens just from afar, keeping them detached from everyone, really into that above all men, keeping the mystique and just showing them unreachable. it doesn’t make sense in a writing way, especially george’s world and the game of thrones world because even the villains were shown their complex sides. but idk it would have been lowkey interesting seeing them just like afar and the pov being the great houses. or even the smallfolk. i know that people joke all the time about hugh or ulf and that we don’t need their backstories but maybe even from a pov of them who in the future become dragonriders would have been a cool story. idk. something new and interesting and different but not too different. i mean writing about the privileged characters who are monarchy and trying to show the complex sides of even them it’s something that i like personally, but like it’s a hopeless story?! ofc seeing dragons and the politics are things that got people excited so idk how much would these ideas really make people watch but as i said it’s a hopeless story?! and not to be cliche but we do need the good guys or the “heroes” to root for or something good and real to root for.. even jace and sara could have been a good story?!?! but yeah hotd is disappointing

The thing is, they chose a very complicated story to tell. They had a lot to live up to, because the Dance of Dragons is one of the most pivitol wars in the history of the Targaryean dynasty and due to the nature of the book being framed as an in universe historical recounting, there is a lot of detail to consider.

They started off roughly, the narration flashback kills most of that interesting history. The details of the Great Council of 101 AC is very detailed, there was a lot going on and there is a lot of nuance to why they made the choices they made that go beyond "Viserys was a man". Yes that was part of why they overpassed Rhaenys, but they also passed on Laenor because he was a male heir through a female bloodline. So it isn't just women bad, men good. It's a very specifically structured system that is so dense it required near a thousand Lords to gather to discern how to handle Jaehaerys succession.

In truth, they had enough characters in the main show whom were there, that they needed to give the answers slowly. When Otto suggests Rhaenyra for heir to replace Daemon, that was the perfect opportunity to start exploring the history there. Say more then just that the Lords wont accept a female heir, explain why.

I think another issue is simply, they were bad at knowing when to hold back and when to cut things. I think they needed to focus in way more on the politics on the story then the details of the Targaryeans and their legacy or purpose. They needed to go in on the details about the politcs and why characters are doing what they are doing, instead of showing off the life around that.

Cut everything about the prophecy, it makes no sense and bogs down the pacing. Either make the plotline of Daemon fighting the Crab Feeder more relevant to the plot then just "this is what Daemons doing btw", or cut it entierly. It felt too disconnected from the politics of the story because they didn't really connect us to why that matters to this story. It felt like a side story for the wrong show.

They also made a very bad choice in framing. Fire and Blood presents as a historical texts, but with testimonies of different perspectives to explain that there is no affinitive prognosis on what is the full truth. The show made a bad choice by choosing what side was right, when in reality, it needed a mix. Show aspects of both sides, and for more, go in the middle. More often then not, when you have two vastly different descriptions of one incident, the actual truth is somewhere in the middle. The show needed to be that middle.

Also, a lot more focus needed to be on building up to Lucerys death. His death becomes the cataclyst for so much of the war, and they really needed to lean into the tension between the families before that. We needed to truly feel like these are two toxic sides of the same family, and peace was never going to be possible. By the time Viserys dies, we needed to feel that "oh shit". That moment of, he's done and nothing is in these families ways from starting their own ends.

I think the Green Council was their best episode, showing the time sensitive nature of crowning Aegon and all the details that went into that process. Now I think they should've stuck closer to the books events because it's simply the more ineteresting version, but thats personal opinion.

But the Black Queen, thus needed to be the true final nail in the coffin. They needed to the tension leading to his death, we know something bad is going to kick off this war, but we don't know what. Because when Lucerys sees Aemond at Storms End, it feels like things got tense out of nowhere when in reality, we needed that to be the climax of the episodes tension.

Season 2 though, is a mess. Fixing season 2 would require an episode by episode playthrough because I cannot elaborate here alone on why season 2s structure was so bad. It didn't need to be the book, but it still needed to be good, and it wasn't even on it's own merit.

Basically, I have ineterest in exploring how I'd fix hotd, but I'd really need to go in episode by episode because I think they had enough time to tell this story and they completely wasted it.

[maryonaccross]

Just wanted to post this to answer @ivarusfalls who chose to post my comment on her anti green post : https://www.tumblr.com/ivarusfalls/715220391811006465/people-say-that-being-team-green-stans-doesnt

On her tumblr.

I figured the best way to respond would be to go through the arguments that were made in the post that I was commenting on and discredit them one by one.

So here we go:

“People say that being team green stans doesn't mean that they're supporting misogyny or anything else that their team stands for. But I just can't understand this take. How can you choose to support a team who's main character (Alicent) laughed when she heard about children and women getting raped?”

The same way I can’t understand how you can support team pedophile ( but we’ll get to that later). I have no idea where you got the information that Alicent laughed at women getting raped ( like in what context? Please state your source when you say things like that). But even if we assume that that was the case supporting her is still 1000 times better than supporting people who( like Deamon and Rhaenyra ) judge and belittle her for being a child bride. And that is a problem that I have with team back Stans in general; How mentally deranged to you have to be to call a child- bride and victim of marital rape “ Alicunt “??? Also team black proudly stands with Viserys who raped his first child bride until he eventually cut her open because her body couldn’t handle seventh pregnancy he forced on her and then proceeded to do the same with Alicent. Deeds speak louder than words. Whatever Alicent said or didn’t say, she never raped or groomed anyone which is more than can be said about many on team black.

“How can you support this team who's main purpose was to tear down the heir to the iron throne only because she was a woman?”

Again, that isn’t true. It the show Alicent supports Aegon because she is thinks that that’s what Viserys wanted her to do. Those were his last words. And in the books she is usurped because her children are bastards. Otto was literally the one who suggested she be named heir instead of Deamon in the first episode. This isn’t about her sex. Her heir is a bastard. Therefore Aegon’s claim is stronger.

“How can you support team green when even when killing Rhaenyra, they cut her breast (something that was unnecessary) only to highlight the fact that they were against her for being a woman?”

As far as I am aware of they feed her to Sunfrye. But all right, whatever you say; unnecessary cruelty towards a hostage. Does that remind you of anything? Oh, maybe the gruesome murder of six year old prince Jeaherys and how team black send assassins who also threatened to rape Aegons six year old daughter. ( And saying that Rhaenyra is innocent in that matter because Deamon gave the order just serves as proof of her failures as a leader. He was part of her fraction, and under her command therefore she is responsible for his actions. Just as Aegon is for Aemond killing Luke)

“How can you support a team whose main character (Alicent) was a rape apologist? Who, when she say her son raping women, bought the silence of the victim but didn't reprimand her son for doing this heinous crime?”

Alicent is a victim of marital rape. Did you even watch the show? Did you not see how she slaps Aegon and denounced him as her son for what he did??? Team black supports Viserys who let Deamon organize a police brutality event without consequences. The guy literally ran amok around the city maiming and killing people left and right. Of course Alicent is concerned how Aegons actions will reflect upon his wife who is her daughter. Alicent does everything in her power to stop Aegon from going down that road.

Rhaenyra lets Luke get away for literally maiming another child without consequences and doesn’t think that he should even apologize. But she is the mother of the year. Make it make sense

“How can you support this team when they knowingly protested against Rhaenyra, the first female heir to the iron throne which would do wonders for women in their society and improve their status, so that they could put their rapist son on the throne?”

This one is really funny, because Rhaenyra ( both in the show and the book) has proven that she doesn’t give a shit about women. All she cares about is herself. She sees herself as the exception, not the rule. In the books, she still proclaims that younger brothers should inherit instead of their sisters. She tells Rheanys that Jace and Beala’s SON will be the king if she married him, which means that she isn’t planning on changing anything for women. If anything her reign made it even more difficult women to come into positions of power because she is remembered as one of the top five Targaryen villains of all time. She chose to judge Alicent for being forced into a life she doesn’t want instead of blaming her father, who forced her into it.

“How can you support this team when Alicent abused Rhaenyra so much to the point Rhaenyra was forced to leave her home and her father because of it?”

What are you talking about??? Rhaenyra basically fleas Kings Landing because everyone was aware that her children are bastards. Even Deamon knew all the way from Pentos. The reason she had to leave was because of her own stupid decisions, and what exactly did Alicent do to bully her??? She doesn’t even actively spread rumors about her children’s parentage, she doesn’t need to, everyone already knows, people aren’t blind. The only time she mentions it is in the privacy of her and Viserys’ Chambers and to Aegon ( again, in private ). And I saw in another one of your posts that we are now villainizing Alicent for her asking to see Joffrey after his birth, because apparently she wanted to “ expose him to germs” I mean come on 🤣🤣🤣 this is a time period where people didn’t even know what that was ( I mean Visserys gives two year old Aegon WINE in the carriage scene ) children spend all of their time with maids and servants. The king and queen asking to see their grandchild isn’t outrageous. i’m sorry, I’m trying to take this seriously but this one cracks me up every time this is so hilarious. She probably wanted to infect him with COVID-19 as well.

And also, the king was right there. What do you think she would’ve done to the baby ? thrown it out the window?

And honestly, if all it takes is a little passive aggressiveness to bully the future leader of Westeros and make her flee to a rock I really don’t think there’s anything left to say about her skills as a ruler. That would mean she has absolutely zero resilience and cannot deal with the consequences of her actions. It’s not Alicent’s fault that people aren’t blind.

“How can you support this team when Alicent made Rhaenyra come to her as soon as she gave birth even when knowing just how painful and traumatic giving birth is?”

She doesn’t. She asked the see the baby. Not Rhaenyra. She looks visibly shocked when she sees Rhaenyra herself.

“Besides this, I've seen team green stans make fun of Rhaenyra being over weight, making fun of her trauma and abuse, saying she was a bad politician even though everything in the show indicates that she wasn't, etc etc.”

I.) the stuff that Team Black fans say about Helena, her weight, but also her being a neurodivergent coded character is so much worse. To the point of some of them arguing that she deserved to die because her life is not worth living

II.) Rhaenyra is a horrible political. She constantly makes stupid decisions ( like taking a lover who doesn’t resemble her husband whatsoever, letting people believe she killed Leanor, marrying the man everyone wanted to keep as far away from the throne as possible, leaving for dragon stone and letting the greens rule for years while her father was sick ect) and the worst thing is she always relies on other characters ( mainly her father and uncle husband ) to save her. Is Viserys hadn’t miraculously resin out of bed when Rhaenyra came begging him she would’ve been done for. She had absolutely no plan.

“I will never like team green stans or even team neutral ones because team green is beyond disgusting and I have no idea how anyone can not hate them.”

Honestly, I have no idea how to talk to hard core team Black fans without wanting to throw up. They are so much more problematic than team green fans and make it really difficult to enjoy this fandom.

And to answer your previous question Deamon is a groomer and a pedophile. In the show Rhaenyra’s actress says that her character is 14 years old in the first couple of episodes including the one where she goes to a brothel with Deamon. Deamon also marries Leana who couldn’t have been older than 15 at the time and grooms Nettles when she is a teenager.

And even if we focus on the book, he has known Rhaenyra since the moment she was born, and spent a lot of time with her during her childhood. Do you honestly think that it’s a coincidence that he keeps “ falling in love “ with underage women?

It’s profoundly disgusting and seeing people portray him ( a wife killer ) as a feminist man makes me sick.

[littlethyme]

I feel like Alicent has every right to be angry for the situation in which she was put in (her marriage, early motherhood, no possibility of making her own decisions, the treatment of her children), but I also do feel like she is taking it out on the wrong person. Rhaenyra seems to get the heat for all of that, instead of Otto and Viserys, and I really feel bad for her. However, I also do think that Rhaenyra did not try hard enough to change the situation between her and Alicent after the engagment party. If she was honest with her friend and tried to reach out to her, things would not get this bad. Also, the "Aemond should be sharply questioned" part should never ever take place, this was not the time for showing who has the upper hand/king's favour. It was just cruel. A child just lost an eye, so it is natural that Alicent is livid. I don't know about you, but this whole scene after Aemond loses an eye makes me so mad - in my opinion, this was a children's squabble which happened to end tagically, with one of the children injured. It was also not "an ambush" - no one went there with the intention of killing. Why Lucerys had this knife? I don't know, but I guess it was not to fucking murder someone. And Aemond - can we blame him for wanting his own dragon after being mocked for not having it? Can we blame him for being smug about finally getting one? Can we blame Baela and Rhaena for being angry that their mother's dragon was stolen? It was an accident where a lot of different circumstances and emotions errupted at once. But why were they fighting at all? Because they have carried with them the weight of this conflict between Alicent and Rhaenyra. And the way Rhaenicent handled it? Awful. Tortures, "eye for an eye", insults (I really hated it when Alicent suggested that Rhaenyra was "entertaining the young squires") and power plays, these were their reactions, instead of just considering how far they went in their quarrel and that they are affecting the children in a really bad way. Rhaenicent, go the the corner and think about your beahviour.

[simplynotcapable]

I have this scenario in my head and I want to know your opinion, if it could have worked or not.

Viserys a good hypothetical father would have commissioned Otto (who I understand is one of the best hands of the king) to raise Aegon to be Rhaenyra's Hand, Aemond and Daeron as his sister's queensguards (giving up any claim) and Helaena married to Jace

We’re assuming Nyra still has no relationship with the Targtowers because I think if she did, then things would be drastically different.

Otto was a very good Hand for the most part, that’s undeniable even if you hate him (which I do). If it weren’t for his misplaced ambition, I think he would have been at the same level as Tywin Lannister (who I also hate but is objectively the best Hand of the King because he kept everything running even with a madman on the throne).

But I don’t think having Otto raise Aegon as Rhaenyra’s hand would have worked, simply because Otto and Alicent are still going to believe the same as they believe in our version: that Rhaenyra shouldn’t be queen, Aegon should be king, and their family is in active danger if he doesn’t take the throne.

Viserys could order him to be raised to act as Rhaenyra’s hand all he wants, but that isn’t going to change the fact that Otto’s going to be whispering the same things. At best, it will simply make Aegon more competent when he takes the throne.

I don’t think the Queensguard plan would work. For Daeron, yes, because he is a mostly moral character and objectively the best person within the dance, but an oath is not going to keep Aemond from turning on Rhaenyra. He is a kinslayer and commits mass murder multiple times, a broken oath is nothing to him.

Viserys changing how he handles raising his sons won’t do much because he isn’t removing the factors that poisoned them to her in the first place: Otto and Alicent’s influence and Rhaenyra’s own dismissal of them.

Helaena and Jace would help relations a lot, I think, but I don’t agree with the popular opinion that it would have fixed everything completely. The Targtowers might be able to believe that Helaena will be spared as Jace’s wife and Rhaenyra’s sister (not brother), but they’re still going to think she’ll kill the boys. Without significantly more work going into repairing the relationship between the factions, the marriage is just a bandaid on a bullethole.

This is all just my interpretation though, I’d love to hear what anyone else thinks.

[dulcewrites]

Oh yeah, I imagine Viserys would be ever more disdainful of his children with Alicent had they'd more of a "Hightower" look. But I wonder, for instance, if the strife between the factions would still be strong enough for Rhaenyra to stay so far away, for so many years, from King's Landing. We see how crown princes go from here and there, and the Green Council would have to be even more cautious. I'd see the Dance more like a Blackfyre rebellion than the full blown violence and war crimes lmao. But unfortunately for Rhaenyra, and for the Greens, they don't have a brilliant strategist and charismatic and capable politician like Brynden Rivers. It feels like most of them are kinda dumb when it comes to war and this sort of challenges. [Except for Jacaerys I guess, considering he's described as a great diplomat, and Corlys, but he's more underhanded] (also no hate for Alicent ok I really like her as queen consort, just don't think, poor thing, she's prepared for the scale things could turn) And Otto, well, he thinks he's smarter than he actually is, and Aemond, their front warrior, too "unlovable" to conquer loyalty, only fear. And that did not bode well for Maegor, for instance. Daemon's rashness speaks for itself.

I think if there was any rumors about Harwin being the father (regardless of how they looked), I think Rhaenyra would still at least try to leave. if the kids are still bastards, just look more like her, Aemond losing his eye probably still happens. I see her wanting to leave after that. Not to mention if she still wants to marry daemon (obviously this depends on if laenor is still around), that could be another reason for her to leave. Since viserys is not happy about that in the book. I read Rhaenyra as someone who does not handle problems well. A lot of that I think is bc of viserys’ coddling of her.

I do wonder how differently her reign would’ve went if she had the wherewithal to know leaving was a stupid decision. Like you said, a lot of the people involved are not politically savvy. Rhaenyra leaving king’s landing then expecting things to just pause for her is indicative of how highly she thinks of herself.

The greens probably would’ve still played things under her nose. It was happening from the moment Aegon was born. They def would’ve been more cautious with her around but I think a plan to usurp her would’ve been in place. Even if it had to happen after her taking the throne

[missglaskin]

Yandere (HOTD) Targaryen/Velaryon/Hightower family (together) HCS 

Part 2 

Mainly Platonic but (Though there are talks of marriages to some characters) 

Note: Literally wrote all of this while half-asleep, sorry for the all the grammar mistakes, too lazy to read over

Rhaenyra would probably be the one to bring you into the family. The bond between you and her will be similar to that between her and Alicent, but rather than Alicent crossing the boundary between friend and almost sisterhood, Rhaenyra believes you are the sister she never had. Also, you were so much younger than Alicent. Given that Rhaenyra constantly talks about you, Aemma and Viserys would be interested in meeting you. Initially, the two would correct Rhaenyra, saying that you weren't her 'sister,' but eventually they stopped and encouraged her to treat you like one. 

As much as Aemma and Viserys grew to love you as their daughter. There is a sense of lucidity that you already have a family and that taking you away from them would be just as cruel. Rhaenyra wouldn't consider this a problem and insists that you live with them from now on, even suggesting that you share a room with her. 

Daemon witnessing the whole ordeal would be angry and annoyed. Neither Targaryen nor Velaryon were you. What rights do you claim to be considered one of them? To be considered a blood of the dragon? He’ll voice his displeasure, which will cause Viserys to react with fury. Daemon may have even tried to get rid of you more than once, but somehow, someway, you were able to convince him otherwise. 

Daemon, now being into the picture and accepting you as a member of the family is both a blessing and curse to Viserys and Aemma. Even though they're sure he won't harm you and will be as protective of you as they are, if not more. In response to this, Daemon will demand to spend time with you, and due to his unpredictable nature, he may take you away, hence why Viserys has guards watch you at all times to ensure this won’t happen. 

Also Daemon’s idea of protecting you varys differently from Viserys and Aemma. Despite Aemma and Viserys' desire to protect you, they also wish to grant you freedom. In addition, they wouldn't mind you getting married as long as the person is trustworthy and you are with them. In contrast, Daemon desires to keep you locked and not be pursued by any potential suitors. He also suggests getting rid of your biological family. Interestingly, only Rhaenrya shares his views in some sense. 

The Velaryon family comes into the picture through Rhaenys, who initially approached you with curiosity, intrigued as to how you might have charmed her cousin. Over time, though, Rhaenys became so fond of you, taking every opportunity to spend some alone time with you. You are soon introduced to Laenor and Laena, who warmly welcome you. Though he was understandably wary of you at first, Corlys eventually came to appreciate you just as much as Rhaenys did.

With the Velaryon family, you are showered with gifts and adoration. You'll receive the most exquisite jewelry and silk from Corlys, and Rhaenys will dress you in it while complimenting how lovely it looks on you. Laena is the most physically affectionate member of her family, holding your hand while both of you walk through the garden. On the other hand, Laenor is the most needy; constantly showing off just so he can have your attention.

Aemma and Viserys surprisingly handle the news of the Velaryon coming into the mix quite well. They, along with Corlys and Rhaenys, agree on a schedule where both families get the chance to spend time with you. Though Rhaenrya and Daemon didn’t take to the arrangements well. The two are just as possessive; breaking rules so they can spend more time with you. 

Alicent was the one who first introduced you to the Hightowers, her family. Like Rhaenyra, she grew fond of you and soon began to think of you as her "sister." Otto, who had a strong dislike for you, tried to persuade the king that bringing you in would be a terrible idea. Furthermore, the notion that you were Viserys’ daughter was absurd. But like the others, he soon warmed up to you and began to play a fatherly role. 

Daemon caught us to this and if it wasn’t for Viserys’ intervention, he’d have done something rash. Only Corlys and Rhaenys took Daemon’s observation seriously. Given how ambitious the Hightowers were, one can only imagine what they might do to get you. They all agree to keep an extra eye on you (which they already do), but unfortunately, the Hightowers gain the advantage after Aemma’s death. 

Both; Viserys and Rhaenyra found comfort in you following the death of Aemma. Which made it hard for Daemon to take you with him after he was exiled, as you were rarely left alone. But he promised one day he’ll. And surely, after that, Viserys announced he’ll marry Alicent. A betrayal that caused Rhaenyra to cry into your arms that night and for Corlys to leave; a decision that pains him as it means leaving you as well. Like Daemon, he promises to also take you with him one day. 

After longing to be your sister, Alicent found it strange at first to be your "stepmother." However, she quickly adapted to it. Once even saying that you were her child and the king's, which incensed Rhaenyra. It became one of the factors contributing to the deterioration of their friendship. Also, this allows Otto to grow closer to you, to which he then introduces you to his brother, who eagerly welcomes you into their family. 

As they’re a Targaryen family, Alicent suggests that you marry one of her sons when they come of age. A suggestion that Viserys turn down, knowing the wrath Daemon and Rhaenyra might bring if he agrees to do so. Otto also suggests marrying a member of his family as well as Corlys, with his son being the ideal match. All of which Viserys turns down once more. Whatever decision he makes, it might lead to war.

[lemonhemlock]

I actually deeply dislike that Alicent continued to try and maintain peace with Rhaenyra after Aemond lost his eye. I think the writers should have made it a pivotal moment, where the blacks don’t care about it and continue as they always do, but the greens have decided, it’s going to be all or nothing. I think the blacks not even noticing any change would have been absolutely a great moment to characterize the difference between the blacks and the greens

Hello and thank you for your ask! They could have done a better job by highlighting how conflicted Alicent is over this situation. After the maiming scene, it's implied they have not seen each other for six years, during which Alicent has turned to religion in order to repent for her (understandable) breakdown. When she regains clarity, she realises retributive justice isn't the way to go and turns to prayer to achieve some feeling of absolution. But, at the same time, she doesn't come across as someone who has forgiven Rhaenyra for how she handled herself either.

I think Alicent remains a kindhearted person despite becoming more neurotic over the years due to stress. Although it is implied she is regretful, I think she would have stuck to the plan and awarded Driftmark to Vaemond.

However, Viserys' walk changed everything IMO. He was a bad husband to her and a bad father to her children, but seeing him suffer through so much pain all these years, basically rotting while he was still alive, losing an eye, losing part of his cheek.... that is a very extreme and prolonged illness, so religious, merciful, compassionate Alicent might have reassessed the situation and considered that the gods themselves have punished Viserys enough, so there was no need from her part to be a bitch about it.

When Viserys literally dragged his decaying husk to the Throne to save Rhaenyra, I wouldn't say Alicent was pleased about it, but you could see that a lot of characters were impressed. It's hard not to be moved by a father's love for his daughter so publicly on display, regardless of past mistakes or grievances. It's a very humanizing moment for Viserys. So I could see her thinking that, even though Viserys never loved her or her children like that, he was a limited person but not incapable of altruim and self-sacrifice (to a certain degree) and, that, in his limited understanding of his family dynamics, he was genuinely trying to "set things right".

Of course, it was a complete miscalculation of several aspects: how he actually came across to his green children, how it was an abuse of power to House Velaryon, what a shit-show Rhaenyra's reign was going to be.... but that was the best thing his addled mind could come up with and perhaps Alicent genuinely appreciated the tangible humanity behind this attempt, both during the petition and at dinner.

After that, Rhaenyra's apology really solidified these feelings inside an already-mollified Alicent. The possibility of reconciliation was maybe not out of the question if Rhaenyra had returned to KL like she had planned and they could have hard a proper talk, airing out all their grievances. But, of course, Viserys had to die on that very night and the political reality and very real threats came crashing down on Alicent and she had to act quickly and decisively.

They definitely could have gone with ambitious!Alicent, like in the books, and it would have been justifiable and great, but I also personally like this reading as well. We already have the ruthless Dowager Queen typology in Cersei and now Alicent has this further dimension that sets her apart and makes her her own character.

That being said, the show did wiffle-waffle on Viserys's last words being misunderstood. They should have given Alicent a better trigger than the confused words of a dying man. A conversation with Otto in which they both discuss Rhaenyra's failures as a political actor so far and her faulty judgement would have gone a long way to explain why Alicent went against Viserys despite having been receptive to Rhaenyra earlier at dinner.

[ladymorghul]

targies salivating over moments where aegon whines he doesn't want to be king. targies writing essays about how he is unfit to be king. like, i thought his personal qualities shouldn't matter since they support absolute monarchy and "birthright"? at least he's self aware unlike rhae rhae living her 20-years long hot girl summer on a naked rock "governing" 5 kitchenmaids and thinking she's fit to rule a realm. smallfolk approved his ascension, they love his queen and his mama the dowager queen, he listens to otto who's good advisor unlike rhae's insane pedouncle. it can be said that smallfolk has voted for aegon when they cheered for the greens. so maybe miss treason should get reality check and step down? people don't want her on the throne. *cue targies unleashing the worst takes known to mankind defending tyranny*

i don’t fully agree with this. there are nuances here tbh 

in principle i do not disagree with viserys changing the law to be able to name his eldest child, regardless of gender, heir, but i do take issue with the way he did it.

not just that, but the way he generally handled politics, especially the politics directly related to naming rhaenyra heir. just the utter ignorance of it all. and then to create a huge rift between his kids and ignore it which was a sure way to guarantee at least a fight if not a war for the throne. 

while some of the lords may have kneeled to rhaenyra because they believed in her, or at the very least in her father’s decisions, many have kneeled because the alternative is to be called a traitor and be put to death. to me it’s clear at least some don’t look happy to kneel to a woman, a daughter, and even his own council protested rhaenyra.

rhaenyra by virtue of being a woman was gonna get contested by some houses and some of the smallfolk because of misoginy and because her being named heir would set a precedent not just for the throne but for how in house politics might change, this much is clear. it also does a disservice to women’s struggles in westeros to portray this as just the greens opposing rhaenyra because it’s a false perspective. 

i do agree rhaenyra isn’t prepared to rule, but viserys was also a bad king. he inherited his peace and instead of strengething it by being smart politically he plunged it into war. unfortunately, like you say, monarchies are not based on who’s the better candidate. it’s all about sucession.

and while i don’t contest the idea of rhaenyra being named heir as the first born regardless of gender, i cannot act all aghast at how the greens reacted.

there was discord in the house of the dragon and alicent suffered her entire life to give the king heirs that he didn’t love and ignored and constantly pushed to the side. this + otto+ the bad politics viserys did.... there was no way one of them wasn’t gonna say “fck rhaenyra” at some point.

[onsenorita]

Eh, I do think I disagree on one point, which is that Rhaenyra was always going to be usurped the minute Viserys decided not to betrothe her to Aegon. Otto Motherfucking Hightower (grudgingly affectionate) did not come that close to putting his blood on the Iron Throne to fumble at the finish line. I also think Rhaenys was right, that there were plenty of Lords who'd willingly torch the Realm just because Rhaenyra was a woman. THAT I think was the crux of the Dance, with the bastardy issue being a secondary (and largely replaceable) concern.

By which I mean, the boys' looks certainly made it an easy issue for the Greens to latch onto. But if Jace, Luke, and Joff had come out looking like Laenor, and the (inevitable) bastardy accusations were easily squashed, then Otto & Co would have just moved on to something else. Maybe they'd have banged the drum harder on the Great Council of 101 and the rule of precedent; maybe focused more on the threat of Daemon as a Maegor II; maybe spent more effort on proving Rhaenyra's "whore" status, or pointed to her not attending small council meetings for years, or the fact that she doesn't seem to worship the Faith, etc, etc, etc. Any of those could have been elevated to a matter of great importance - a reason why the Realm couldn't follow Rhaenyra, and why Alicent and her kids would need to fear for their lives.

Would that have been as effective in the long run? Politically, maybe, or maybe not; it depends how well Otto could spin things for a wider audience. (Though again, the fundamental base of Rhaenyra being a woman would still be there for the opposition to build on.) But personally? Otto's superpower seems to be telling people the worst case scenario, then making them think it's the ONLY scenario, and then manipulating them based on that. If Otto told Alicent that, for example, Rhaenyra wasn't a follower of the Faith, and this was causing unrest in the Realm that threatened to turn to open rebellion as it had with Maegor, and that through this rebellion her children's lives would be put at risk (since THEY were all good followers, so would be held up as alternatives)...I think it would have been just as effective as the bastardy threat he did end up using.

TL;DR, if the person you're usurping won't hand you a massive political scandal, then a store-bought one is fine. Rhaenyra definitely didn't do herself any favors with how she handled her oldest boys' parentage, but I don't think that's the REASON why she was usurped, or why Alicent and her kids spent so long in fear for their lives. The reason was that Otto wanted his blood on the throne; Rhaenyra and Alicent couldn't get married, Rhaenyra and Aegon weren't going to; Westeros, as a deeply sexist society, made usurpation a option; and in order to make that happen, he needed his daughter and grandkids on side. Or at least that's how it reads to me.

Say that rhaenyra three eldest children died leaving her pure and step daughters. You think the greens would fight the blacks now after viserys death

this is a great question! and a nice follow-up to the previous scenario that i discussed in way too much detail here. i mentioned in that post that i think the greens' lives were in genuine danger because of the instability of rhaenyra's claim, and that they usurped her not out of hatred of her but of fear for their lives. i also explained the two major factors weakening rhaenyra's very legitimate claim to the iron throne: her gender, and her bastards.

in this new scenario, we've maintained the potential issues caused by the precedent of putting an eldest daughter on the throne. so lords with older sisters and eldest daughters would likely still be pretty unhappy. but we no longer have the aspect of the bastard issue, which could also happen if rhaenyra made aegon the younger her heir if the idea of the strong boys dying makes anyone too sad! so what changes? let's discuss!

of the two issues (bastardy and gender), the gender issue will be much easier for the lords of westeros to swallow, for a few reasons:

there are likely fewer lords with older sisters/eldest daughters than there are lords with bastard siblings or children given how rampant infidelity seems to be in westeros, so fewer lords will feel negatively impacted by this.

pretty much all of these lords were willing to swear fealty to rhaenyra as viserys's heir back when she had no bastards (though i do acknowledge that aegon didn't exist yet so it's not a direct comparison). still, this means lords who are okay with rhaenyra but not okay with jace remain on rhaenyra's side.

the legal precedent actually allows lords to choose whether a change in their succession takes place. viserys didn't institute a law that makes absolute primogeniture mandatory. he simply created a precedent where if a lord wants to they can name their eldest daughter heir. so lords will feel that their claims are more protected by the law here, because they are still the ultimate authority on their succession.

overall, i do think this means rhaenyra would have more support than in canon, and significantly so. in canon, the greens only very narrowly had enough supporters to carry out a successful coup, and so even a small loss of support would make it pretty much impossible for them to do this, even if they wanted to.

otto would still be as manipulative and anti-rhaenyra as ever. but as i mentioned in my previous post, that isn't enough to get alicent and her kids to turn against rhaenyra. in this scenario, rhaenyra's claim would be much stronger in canon, and it would be much less likely that any of alicent's kids could pose a political threat to rhaenyra because there simply wouldn't be enough discontented lords to make them one. of course, things are still a bit iffy, but it's fair to say they would come down on the side of being willing to back rhaenyra. especially alicent, who we know loves rhaenyra and maintained her support of her for many years even after the strong boys were born.

that's not to say this wouldn't require a big adjustment for the greens: in your proposed scenario, rhaenyra still maintained her bastards as heirs for years. so alicent's kids would have still been brainwashed against her from childhood, and lords would have still begun to mobilize against her. hostility between the two sides of the family would still have built up over the years. i don't know that these broken bridges would have ever really been mended. but i do think alicent and her children would have felt able to let rhaenyra ascend since it wouldn't have risked their lives so directly.

[dwellordream]

Initial Impressions of HotD, Episode 5

be warned there are spoilers below.

i have read fire & blood, but i am not judging the show as to its accuracy towards the book, as i had major issues with fire & blood, particularly in regard to how grrm wrote the female characters and handled the Dance.

this is not an evaluation of it as an adaptation but on its own merits.

Rhea’s actress did a great job establishing her character in such a short amount of time as confident, independent, and blunt - similar to Daemon in many ways, but clearly not someone he would ever find appealing because she would never flatter his ego.

I think her death scene was a little silly; they could have had her riding out alone, and then show Caraxes’ shadow overhead, then cut to her being found dead, but I’m glad they kept it nebulous as to whether Daemon directly caused her death, or even meant to hurt her at all.

Otto is a horrible person, but it’s true that Rhaenyra’s claim will never be secure so long as Alicent has living sons. Rhaenyra might not initially intend to harm them, but they would always be a threat to her, and Daemon would have zero qualms about killing them.

Having it be autumn at this point in the story is a good choice, because everything is declining; Rhaenyra and Alicent’s relationship is dead in the water. Viserys’ health is fading fast. Daemon has repeatedly squandered the power he has. Laenor and Rhaenyra’s betrothal is depicted as a rather tedious, reluctant affair.

Not getting to see the shiny silver roofs of Driftmark was a missed opportunity. It looked very generic and seemed quite desolate, as opposed to a bustling port.

Larys’ actor is great, and he and Alicent have a very fun dynamic. He comes across as much more awkward than the typical scheming advisor, but in works in his favor because he is aware people already pity/scorn him due to his disability.

Laena’s actress is great, but this show has done her very dirty. Laena easily could have featured in Episodes 3 and 4 as Rhaenyra started to pull away from Alicent. They also cut her claiming Vhagar, which annoys me a lot. The writing for women of color on this show sucks, frankly.

It was a delight to see Rhaenys again. Then, again, we could have seen a lot more done with her in the last two episodes. What a waste.

Corlys and Rhaenys seem to have become disillusioned with Daemon now that Laenor and Rhaenyra are a possibility, which makes sense. They very pointedly bring up that Daemon may have murdered his wife, and have probably heard the rumors about him and his niece.

Viserys never says anything about Rhaenyra’s firstborn child succeeding her regardless of gender in Fire & Blood, so it’s strange here that he doesn’t even try to go ‘well, of course Rhaenyra will have sons...’. 

It’s nice to see Rhaenyra trying to be kind to Laenor and proposing a marriage of friendship and respect, even if his actor is much more stiff than hers. 

To be honest the breakneck pacing of this season could have been slowed down considerably, and the finale could have been Rhaenyra and Laenor wedding, and Alicent turning against her permanently. It would have developed the Velaryons much more.

Corlys being in denial about Laenor’s sexuality and insisting he’ll ‘outgrow it’ seems silly. It would make more sense for him to be aware, but not see it as a genuine impediment to Laenor siring children.

Joffrey Lonmouth is very fun, and I think his actor has a lot of charm. You can see how Laenor, who seems much more solemn, would be attracted to him.

I assume the implication here is that Rhaenyra and Criston have continued their sexual relationship in the few months since last episode. He never seriously proposes running away with Rhaenyra in Fire & Blood, and I don’t really like his characterization here - I can’t see Criston being willing to abandon his post as Kingsguard and the honor/fame of it for a life on the run with a princess.

However, I do think his reaction to Rhaenyra proposing they continue the relationship after her marriage is good. Criston wants to preserve Rhaenyra in his head as a pure and chaste princess who was only willing to give up her virtue to him, and then never stray from her husband. He’s horrified at the thought of being the third party to a marriage between her and another man, even if Laenor is gay.

Alicent’s nervous speech to Ser Criston, trying to ascertain if Rhaenyra actually had sex, is very well done, especially when she tries to play the wise older woman reflecting on the ‘flush of youth’. Alicent never got to make youthful mistakes or have any lapses in resolve. And the thought of Rhaenyra having had sex doesn’t just upset her on a moral level, but seems yet more salt in the wound of the life she never got to lead, and the pleasurable relationship with Rhaenyra that ended abruptly with Alicent’s marriage.

Nice to see some actual dragons again the dragon show.

Daemon waltzing in to the wedding celebrations uninvited and knowing damn well he is still exiled is such a Daemon thing to do.

Alicent’s evil stepmother entrance was beautiful. Seeing her do the first genuinely petty, selfish thing for herself right at the perfect moment to show up Viserys was so fitting. The music was also great; a very sinister waltz.

Joffrey massively underestimating the consequences of joking about Criston Cole is pretty heartwrenching. 

Harwin being completely unthreatened by Daemon, but also never contradicting or defying him establishes a lot about him as a character. He doesn’t have much of a temper or ambitions; he just wants what he wants, and is willing to bend rather than break for it.

Criston ‘accidentally’ killing Joffrey during a tourney was one thing. Brutally killing him in a brawl during the royal wedding celebrations is another. I hope they’re prepared to explain the consequences of this next episode. The Lonmouths are not a minor house, and they would be enraged by this act from a Kingsguard.

Despite my issues with how they have handled the Velaryons, especially Laena, I do think this was the best episode since Episode 2. The pacing was tight and the suspense was genuine, and there were a lot of great shots of characters carefully observing one another.