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goldentigerfestival · 8 months ago

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Part 4 of the Vesperia differences between JP and the dub!

Part 1.

Part 2.

Part 3.

(Other) GTF Favorites.

As a heads up, I had to piece several images here as "one" image to circumvent the image limit because I was not about to make a part five by the time I got toward the end LOL.

For some reason the dub completely removed Alexei jokingly/sarcastically saying it makes his heart hurt (brings him down in this tl) how Estelle will come to her senses and see what she's done to her friends. As usual, the dub has a very weird habit of adding sentences where they never existed and completely removing sentences for no literally no reason.

I feel that "set you free" can also have the implication of saving her alive (which the dub heavily seems to lean toward versus wording that really shows Yuri's resolve here, the latter of which fits right in with Flynn and Ioder's acceptance that he may have to kill her), so I included this one to go with the previous case of Flynn mentioning that Yuri's group was going to "save" Estelle. The original is more ambiguous about her possible survival, but the dub leans more into being ambiguous in a way that doesn't lean toward her dying.

The dub changed this to nothing but literally "aye" so... do with that what you will.

Another case of them randomly wiping out an entire sentence (the last one).

As with other cases, there are some slight changes I don't feel are worth mentioning and often tend to be just slight changes in word choice that ultimately mean close to the same thing. This is generally the case for most of the spirit gathering arc. The overall tl of this arc is pretty much accurate, just with some odd cases like the above.

I really don't wanna say like, it's because Flynn's not around for a chunk of the plot in arc 3, but uh... let's be honest, it's once again as soon as Flynn gets back into the picture that the tl starts to go haywire again - especially where Yuri is concerned. Like. Literally. As usual.

In the dub, this was "but Duke isn't". Just putting this one here because I feel like this gives more of a sense how the characters are feeling about it, more than just him not working out in their favor.

This one was calling Ba'ul "weak" in the dub, but here Yuri is just asking if he's that stubborn about changing his form to a spirit. Putting this here because I feel using "weak" is a lot more harsh and has negative connotations on it compared to a more ignorant "stubborn" before Yuri understands.

Yuri mentions here that Duke seems to have thought a lot about what he's doing. In the dub, this was "he seems totally obsessed". Not sure what the reason for that change was.

Raven makes this more of a question in the dub, but here is more of him realizing it and putting the pieces together, so I figured I'd include this one since it's a slight change in a character's perception of something.

The first line was changed to "could you be any more worthless" (I guess because they thought the "boring" line was weird? idk lol). The second and third line got swapped for some reason, even though it does kind of change the general meaning behind what's being said.

Yuri says first that Sodia gave up, only to tell her she has no right to say it was all for Flynn (thus saying it's because of giving up). At least imo, in the dub it comes across as "you say it's for him but you gave up thus it's an excuse", versus "you have no right to say it's for him".

I'm trying not to say it again, y'all.

Karol says that Yuri going off alone is a bad habit. The dub changed this to "you keep forgetting us", which I'm kind of confused by because he's not forgetting them and literally told them to get ready to go to Tarqaron. Not really sure why they'd change this line since like yeah, it is a bad habit of his lol.

Another translation error in the dub, so this one's here for clarification. The dub says Astal "lost control", but Astal by this point is dead (and he never "lost control"). Judith also says in the dub that it made all the monsters gather here, rather than saying they've gone savage. It seems like they misunderstood something thinking Astal losing control brought all the monsters here, but obviously we know that can't be the case because Astal is dead.

This was changed in the dub to "it's our turn to do Yuri a favor", when he's actually supposed to be teasing him, which Yuri directly replies to.

Still trying not to say it.

Dub Karol sounds more like he's prepared to go in, but in the original audio, Karol sounds nervous about the hoard they're about to have to get involved with. Raven's line was changed to Flynn looking like he needs help and not that so much that he's cornered, and the original audio has him sounding more urgent about it. Minor changes here, but tonally I think they impact the scene differently (and definitely give more of a "this is really fuckin' dangerous" vibe in the original audio).

Another slight change and not an important one, but figured I'd include this since it has a slightly different meaning/vibe to it.

Including this just for Yuri's little laugh when he shows up (I love him! A Yuri Lowell!) and Flynn's shocked response. More tonal in change, but definitely worth a listen and will be linked below with Flynn's laugh!

This can also be translated as "it's simple/it will be simple", because it's "me and you" doing it. Imo this makes it more clear he's referring to just them (i.e. the upcoming fight) and not the entire group, but Yuri also specifically specifies "you and me", so it's much more clear that he's referring only to them (which I think, also given Yuri's levity in this situation despite the danger, shows how much they've completely come back from and recovered from the Nordopolica/Alexei stuff). Shoutout to Yuri deciding this on the spot and totally not even planning it though.

Again, there are some wording choice changes littered around, but nothing really significant (when I say small things, I mean things like Rita saying it's reckless for just the two of them to deal with this, versus the dub using "are you stupid?!". It basically changes nothing even if it is technically a difference, but I usually skip things like that because these posts would be even longer for changes that don't have a large impact).

As for the Yuri-Flynn-Repede battle, there were some... choice dialogue changes here.

Firstly, Yuri actually tells Flynn to be careful (rare carefulness from him, especially in regard to someone he knows can handle fighting).

Second, Flynn telling him not to worry was removed entirely.

Third, Flynn mentions (you too, i.e. you be careful too) if Yuri keeps looking away from the battle (and over at him), he'll have the rug pulled from under him.

Fourth, the dub changed Yuri saying he's just captivated by how handsome/good looking Flynn is (and I shit you not if Judith said that to Yuri people would call it flirting and it'd be localized as such, so yes, I am going to tell you that the dub changed it to avoid that). The original wording used is "ii otoko", i.e. good/nice looking man, which in translation could come across a bit awkwardly and would be more likely to officially be translated to "handsome"... if they weren't so spooked at the idea of it and had to wipe it for "the great Flynn Scifo" which is not actually what was said. Personally I'd say "nice looking man" has a very specific ring to it versus handsome, but again, obviously that might sound a bit odd in translation and might need some phrasing assistance.

Fifth, Flynn remarks that it's a ridiculous joke (the dub changed this to just "sh-shut up!").

Sixth, the goofy, playful tone Yuri carries when he says "I am being serious" was changed (very typical of the dub at this point though to remove his playfulness and I'm literally saying that objectively). Similarly, his following line's tone was also changed.

Seventh, "so we're kind of stuck". Yuri says he can't concentrate without talking, then ends (the battle conversation) with a following sentence of "it can't be helped!".

This could be translated in a few ways just to make it more clear what he's referring to (because a plain ol' "it can't be helped" is a bit too vague here), but you could translate that to something like "guess we can't help it", yadda yadda. My guess is that's where "we're kind of stuck" came from, but given the blatant trajectory change of the entire conversation, I'm not surprised I'm left feeling like the meaning of that line is just weird (primarily because he says that and the conversation abruptly ends, so they're not very stuck if Flynn won that one!) Something like "guess we can't help it/that's just how we are" etc imo would have done the job for translating that.

Flynn just sounds so, so happy and soft and my heart is full. Same dialogue in the dub, but the original audio was (imo much?) more lighthearted and so sweet and soft.

Made a clip of both their laughs because they're adorable and I love them.

No idea why the dub actually dropped her giving Yuri a whole ass honorific. Yeah, you can't always use JP suffixes in a dubbed game, but you can translate some of them to the closest thing they mean. Sodia here calls him "Yuri-...dono...", so rather than just dropping his last name in her accusatory tone, she calls him by only his first name and attaches a respectful term to his name.

Technically "dono" would mean "lord" or "master" in a non nobility manner, and is more of a formality than if she were to use, say, -san, which would have her referring to him as more of a regular/casual equal (-san is a suffix that often gets lost in translation, whereas dono can actually be roughly translated like it is here from this translator. Someone of her rank would still refer to others even equal to her rank as "sir" in translation, while people who use "dono" may also still use that term for people of their rank. Remember, at this point she's the second in command to the Commandant himself, so that's an awfully high bar for Yuri to have jumped in her eyes). Sodia has realized his actions have been just and honest and that she was very wrong about him, so as an indicator that she's changing her stance on him, she refers to him this way instead.

Basically, coming from someone of her rank, it's a very respectful term and is not used casually/in a casual relationship, much less to someone one dislikes or even hates (which she previously did, so this by itself is a massive step up in her view of him just from her suffix usage alone).

Honestly a huge shame that they didn't even translate this to "sir" in the dub when there was no reason not to. Just using that alone would have indicated a much higher level of respect from her toward him, and unfortunately that open respect is completely lost to dub only players (she only expresses her guilt, whereas in the original, just by using "dono" alone, she's indicated respect and not just guilt. In a way you could even argue that she's approaching him, someone she gives her respect to now, for advice and not just out of guilt alone).

In the dub this is only "it would have been easier if you'd blame me for this..." Here she's admitting she wants some form of punishment by way of saying she didn't receive it (which she could have from Yuri himself if he told Flynn what she did), but if she can't even have that, she at least would rather be hated. Basically, she's saying she wants to be hated if she can't at least be punished for her crime (and I believe you could also translate this to wishing she could be hated if she wasn't blamed for it, so basically they removed half the statement).

Also, in general, Sodia sounds very distraught.

Here Yuri admits he does have a grudge against her (you could translate this to something like "it's not like I don't hold a grudge against you"). The dub changed this to "don't think I'm doing this for your own good". Basically the dub is having him say he's making her live with her regret without mentioning that yes, he does in fact have a grudge against her for what she did.

The translation here is essentially the same (think about it for yourself. The dub just uses "go figure it out yourself").

The important part here comes in the form of how he refers to her. This is something he's done since he survived her stabbing him - not using a neutral form of "you" but instead openly using a rude form (in JP there are several ways of referring to oneself and others, similar to how Flynn alternates between boku and watashi when referring to himself).

In other words, Yuri is openly expressing disdain for her by using "teme". At this point he's been using it for a little while now (he also talks to her this way back in Nor at the inn as well. Worth noting that he starts out by using "omae" (neutral), but as soon as she drops the "I did it for Captain Flynn's sake", he hops to "teme" in a heartbeat, because of saying it was for Flynn but having just given up on him. Yuri continues using "teme" from that point on), but since here it's with very other little dialogue and also because she just recently referred to him as "Yuri-dono", I think it's a perfect time to point it out, as they've openly, verbally switched how they treat each other.

Sodia, wracked with guilt and left unresolved, has a newfound respect for Yuri after their interaction at Nor (and presumably everything he's done for Flynn). Yuri, still angry at her for what she did and holding a grudge (a fact lost in the dub that he mentions in this scene as mentioned above, adding to this role reversal), now openly chastises her and expresses his contempt by changing how he refers to her.

NEXT!

Not gonna put a picture here for it, but when Rita asks Witcher where his notes are, she gets super excited and it's just cute and funny.

Also not putting a picture here for this one, but Flynn sounds extremely relaxed/calm/casual in JP when he asks if Yuri is all set/ready to talk. Something worth noting is that even at this point, the dub keeps Flynn sounding very uptight and serious where he otherwise is relaxed, calm or even emotional. I get the feeling the dub kind of missed the mark with Flynn's soft gentle side. I don't know how or why, but it's more absent in the dub where he's otherwise much more soft.

Similarly, not pictured because this isn't about the translation, Flynn trying to convince Yuri to tell everyone what he's done is given in a more angry-upset tone, versus the original's (super!) soft and sad tone. Again, I think they had a different perception of Flynn in mind when it comes to audio (particularly in arc 3 here because the other arcs are... again, their own whole can of worms), because here he's speaking sadly that Yuri won't take credit, whereas in the dub it's more energy-fueled and comes off much harsher. I have a video clip of that scene here. I felt like mentioning it here because overall Flynn can be extremely soft and gentle in tone and it got lost in the dub for whatever the reason was.

Still on that train of thought, while the translation itself is still pretty accurate, Flynn says "I'll just yell at you again" but in JP says that he'll just say unnecessary words. Earlier, in the dub Yuri asks why he's so serious when he doesn't actually mention that he's being serious in the original (because honestly, he wasn't. He was very calm when they set out). In this case it's not really negative (the way Yuri yelling at people in the dub is portrayed negatively on their end), it's just... a change that I can only guess they had the wrong idea about with him? Previously the changes with Flynn were treating him negatively, but here it's more just... a notable but narratively generally neutral tone difference.

As much as I'm sure many people found the ass kicking conversation funny, the actual context is:

Yuri: Whatever it is (the feeling they're talking about), I'm hitting you with all my strength!

Flynn: Well then... I'll use all my strength to overwhelm you!

Yuri: If you can beat me, then beat me!

Not making a clip just for this unless it's requested, but when Yuri wins the solo fight against Flynn, in the original, Yuri says it with actual shock but awareness/clarity that it actually happened (with a sort of underlying excited vibe to it). In the dub Yuri says it with more of a laugh and disbelief.

As for this point onward, since the subbed playthrough ended before this point, I'll be using another playthrough for images, though I'll be translating them here instead since they won't be pre-translated.

Sliiightly different vibe here so I figured I'd include it (doesn't really change anything): Here Flynn says "Even with a sword... I lost." The reason I'm including it is because "I can't even win with a sword anymore" makes it sound like Flynn has been losing again and again to Yuri in various ways when it's always been the opposite. Using a sword has always been one of his highest selling points, so to lose in that area comes across more as, even with my best asset I still lost to you.

Yuri's line is more like, "(laughs) Serves you right."

Running out of images I can use for this post here but I really don't want to make another part at this point in the game, but Flynn's following line is more along the lines of "be proud of yourself" (literally "raise your arms (in victory/pride)"), to which Yuri says the same thing in both versions (Flynn's dub line is "you've gotten better"). Including this because "you've gotten better" to me isn't really the same as telling Yuri to be proud of himself for the victory (something he'd never been able to do before). Since the dub came across as much more casual, I figured I'd add this part here too.

During Flynn and Patty's conversation, Flynn says "it's true there is no end to my worries." In the dub this was, "I have no want for trouble". This was probably a mix up of terms/intended meaning honestly, because Patty was basically saying he has a lot of burdens for being so young. It's not about trouble so much as he just has a lot on his mind and a lot to worry about in his current position.

Flynn proceeds to say he's made up his mind, basically saying he's made up his mind to accept those worries. In the dub, he says he's prepared to face it (the troubles), versus that he's made up his mind in accepting these new worries.

Patty's response is "made up your mind?" In the dub it's just "is that right?"

Flynn continues by saying in the end he'll have to worry a lot (more literally with all his might, so basically he'll be experiencing a whole lot of worries in the future) and that it will be a tough road, but he won't run away anymore.

I'm not sure why the dub used "path full of pain" since that sounds a lot more dramatic than "it will be a tough road". I imagine yeah, there will be pain in the future, but full of pain just sounds a bit... much? The dub also removed "anymore" from "won't run away anymore". Not sure what the idea behind that was.

Patty follows up saying it's admirable but that's no good, which the dub changed to a fish pun.

I'd also like to mention at this point, Flynn has completely dropped his use of "watashi" in favor of "boku" (he uses boku normally, but typically switched to watashi for formality/his status as a knight, which indicates he no longer feels the need to do this around Yuri's friends, and possibly does not feel the same level of distance he used to. At the very least it means he's allowing himself to be more of himself/more familiar and not viewing his position as a knight so formally).

Here Flynn says "thinking together, worrying together, and then one day realizing the world we dreamed of". Adding this since Flynn in the dub says "if we all work through our troubles together". It's kind of the same thing and kind of not, since in the original Flynn isn't mentioning "troubles" between anyone - simply the idea of everyone doing this together (the rest is basically the same in the dub).

Another change I'm not sure what it was for, but Ioder never mentions the Entelexeia specifically. He says this (what he's about to say) concerns the empire, guilds and everyone who lives in the world (which would include the Entelexeia by default, but literally everyone else too, which is the point because he's about to tell them about the blastia to start making plans). The dub never mentions about this affecting everyone in the world despite that being the whole reason he wants to talk to everyone about this.

Yuri calls Duke an "ignorant fool" here, rather than a "stubborn bastard", which I'm including because "ignorant" and "stubborn" aren't the same thing. Yes, Duke is stubborn about it, but in Yuri's eyes he's also being very ignorant of everything they're trying to tell him.

Not grabbing an image for this, but at the end of the game when Yuri is talking to Duke right after the battle, he's completely out of breath before and when he starts talking (the first line). Just a very nice touch!

In the dub Duke says Eluficer's wish was simply to protect the world and all living things. Here Duke says his wish is to protect the world and all living things with a good heart.

Also don't want to use an image here because of the image limit per post (especially because it's already tight even with me putting what images I can into "one" image as it is), but Yuri says "yeah, let's do it" (including the others), versus "I'm on it" in the dub at Flynn's prompting. Not a big change, but he does treat it as the whole group doing it together, which I find to be a nice touch for his character development.

Patty actually says "it- it stopped?!" The dub goofed and wrote "it's- it's over?!". The power of the blastia wasn't enough and its power was weakening.

Estelle says "No way, after we've come this far!". The dub changed this for some reason to "but how? There isn't any more!" in response to Rita instead of leaving it as it was.

Judith says "Please!" The dub used "It's gotta work!"

Flynn says "It's not over yet!" For some reason the dub used "This can't be how it ends!", which... idk, I feel like original Flynn has much more faith in it LOL. Original Flynn is looking at this through a glass half full, while the localization is a glass half empty. Positive versus negative framing.

Yuri says "Is it no good...?" Dub Yuri says "Dammit... come on!"

For the most part the rest is the same.

Adding this in because the old cutscene in the 360 version had to get changed to accommodate where Flynn was. Somewhat different than what we see with the other characters, you can see the power shoot out and push Flynn back as if it was grabbing the blastia itself, and you can see it pulled away from him (with everyone else we just see the blastia head toward the rest!).

Aside from that, Flynn says "you are my pride, dear friend" (the dub changed this to "I am so proud to call you my friend, Yuri Lowell").

The voice acting took me out with the happiness portrayed in Flynn's voice. (For just the Flynn part of the ending, I have a clip of that too, unsurprisingly.)

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EDIT: Since making these posts, it has since come to my attention that it's been declared that claims have been made about Yuri's "rude speech" (in an argument about JP Yuri against the English version, which nobody but myself had recently discussed prior to these posts), and I did not even ever broach that topic. So, I'm dedicating this next portion to that and why it does not, in any capacity, change my mind or feelings.

Keep in mind, I do not care if you like the dub or its dubbed cast. I made these posts so people could learn about the version of a character I love, and understand why I am not happy with the direction the loc and dub took with him. These opinions are NOT common, and most of the western fandom loves dub Yuri and/or simply does not realize there are differences. However, as someone who loves a version not many people are familiar with, I made these posts so people could learn about it and possibly share my love of this character with me. Also, there's nothing wrong with explaining differences between versions and not liking changes. However, saying things like, there are "no differences", is simply untrue.

Yuri's general speech mannerisms are considered rude irl. In modern day fictional media, it doesn't really matter in the "rude" aspect because characters don't actually react to that. The way people speak in JRPGS/anime is very much not how people really speak in Japan.

Most important thing to note here: Translation is not simply translating the words used. It is intent. Using basic words to excuse changing a character's tone, or changing/adding/removing words to change the intent behind the lines, is not a faithful translation. In a video game with voice acting, tone and models/sprites/etc are also extremely important. Why do you think it looks off that Yuri is giving Flynn "the funny face" when he says "stop treating me like a little kid" with aggression? Because the face and tone were the indictor that he wasn't being aggressive.

Yuri's words, on a basic level, are "rude". For example, he speaks in a confident and somewhat demanding way by basic word choice. But if you were to say "go get me that folder", on a basic level, that can be perceived as rude. If the tone is light, relaxed and in the tone where it's almost a question, it comes across as more of a request. It can be said in a calm manner, such as if someone is working at a desk and is in the middle of something, writing a sentence perhaps, and is requesting that another person retrieves the folder while they're busy. It does not have to come across as aggressive or rude.

Again, intent is the main thing you want to carry over in translation. I've heard that manga authors, in more recent years, have expressed disdain at western localization taking their work and changing the intent and meaning behind their work. So yes, this does bother creators. Higuchi may be one of them, as I don't think he just decided to post that on Twitter just because he doesn't actually feel that way. If all you're focused on is the words and ignore every other aspect of the media, you lose that intent.

In Yuri's case, they not only changed his tone at times they kept the same words, but there were times they specifically changed his word choice to make him sound more aggressive. Language is more complicated than "the words he used would be rude in a real life setting", and people say all the things that could be rude if spoken in another tone. Once you go "oh, the words are rude so I'm going to change the context of what's being said to make it mean, aggressive, or actually rude, and change the tone of the character's voice", you've disregarded the intent.

The importance does not lie solely with the words. It lies with the intent and meaning of the character's dialogue (such as with Leblanc. Yuri speaks in a firm way where he's not willing to bend on going after Alexei, but he speaks with softness and understanding. There was no aggression whatsoever in his tone. His words were to indicate his firmness on a matter that he would not budge on, but it didn't mean he wasn't being understanding, sincere and considerate of the situation and the feelings of the knights in front of him.

That said, Yuri's speech is rough, informal, casual, and in JP speech can sound demanding. However, all of this is offset by his tone and physical mannerisms. You can tell he's not trying to be mean or rude to strangers. To his friends. It's simply how he speaks. He speaks like Spada, Vicious, Moses and many other Tales characters who I also adore, and you know what the localizations of Vicious and Moses didn't do (there isn't one for Spada)? Change their behavior to reflect rudeness in their speech. They found ways to work out their phrasing while having their personalities in mind.

Vicious is kept rude when he's actually trying to be rude. When he's not being silly or even sincere, they don't change his dialogue to make him still sound rude. As an example relevant to Yuri, Yuri's entire tone in the scene with Leblanc was changed, and they removed him using "tanomu", which in that scene would translate to "please". Yuri, softly and sincerely and with remorse and understanding, says "please don't get in our way". The dub removed this and has Yuri aggressively saying "don't get in our way". No sympathy, empathy or mutual grief in his voice whatsoever.

There are ways to get his speech across without affecting his actual personality. Similar to Yuri, Spada speaks like a damn thug. However, you can clearly tell in his voice and overall demeaner at the moment how he's feeling. When he's riled up, when he's toned down, etc. Yuri is the same way. Similar to with Moses and Vicious, there is no need to change their dialogue to try to reflect a portion of JP speech that can't be translated.

Overall, Yuri is kind, generous and understanding. If he's saying something that in JP that sounds demanding, you need to use context and his tone/overall attitude/mood atmosphere to tell if he's actually being rude. Is he rude to Ragou? Yeah. Cumore? Yeah. Ioder? Uhhh, no. He talks like he always talks, but he adjusts his tone to not sound threatening or rude. The one time he's annoyed at Ioder, all he says in this mildly annoyed voice is "say anything else and I'll punch you". It was his way of saying he didn't want to talk about that anymore. The localization has him darkly and threateningly literally threaten the guy with an actual weapon. Yuri doesn't threaten good people, much less when he can tell Ioder isn't one of the bad ones.

There's a reason the localizations for Moses and Vicious (who I am using here as examples because they're characters I adore and other top favorites of mine, who speak very similarly to Yuri who have localizations that did not change their behavior) didn't try to translate their speech mannerisms into their personalities/tones. They found other ways to get those across.

These next two examples I'm using because one encompasses the context part, and the other has some similarities to Yuri's personality.

Vicious is extremely rude as a person, but he has very sincere moments where he opens up with his real thoughts to the others. Obviously there was nothing they could do about tone because there was no English audio for his game, but they did not do what they did with Yuri, which was change his actual context. They absolutely could've just put whatever they wanted regardless, like Hearts R did (which is a highly contested localization among the western JP speaking Hearts fans). Hearts R had only JP audio and still did whatever they wanted with the text. Will people who don't understand that dialogue realize it? No. Will they think Hisui was actually saying something rude? Yes.

Moses is fun, silly, goofy, and a little crazy. He literally is a bandit. His speech is rough. Informal. Casual. He uses rude terms. But he's not being rude. A little dumb, yeah! I'll be the first to admit my favorite guy ever is a little goddamn dumb! But he's not intending to be insulting. It's just how he speaks. The localization adjusted as best it could. And mind you, Moses is my favorite Tales character. If I took issue with changes to his character, I'd be hollering from skyscraper rooftops. There's a reason I'm not.

If you want an example of rude speech actually intended to be rude and is expressed rudely on purpose, look no further than early game Luke. After his haircut, he starts correcting his speech when he catches himself. He never speaks truly politely/formally, but he eases up on the extremely rude speech and it's reflected in his behavior.

So no, Yuri's speech being rude did not have to translate over in the localization/dub to him actually being aggressive. Other Tales localizations exist and have adjusted accordingly without changing context so intensely, or completely changing the tones of the characters. They made a choice with Yuri, and I don't agree with it. I don't agree with making him rude when he's not intending to be just because his speech is rough. This changes entire dynamics on the whole and during certain scenes.

I simply don't agree with the choices that were made, looking at every aspect and angle of the Japanese language.

Again, intent is key. If something is intended to sound a certain way, or to make players perceive something a certain way, changing that intent changes perception of a scene, moment, relationship, character, etc.

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Personal ending notes:

To sum it up briefly: I personally see a strong inserted bias put into the localization instead of just keeping things the way they were (i.e. changing context/character behavior to fit their bias despite that not being what the original context was, and inserting this into an official release). I say this because there are times when the translation is basically perfect, but there are very specific characters and instances where this suddenly changes, and unfortunately, there's a repetitive pattern that to me reads as intentional. Otherwise, I see no need for that to continuously happen only when select characters are involved.

As for the not so short version, y'all might be wondering why I mention things like it seems like they changed Yuri and berated Flynn so much on purpose. This is because the translation of this game sometimes can be astoundingly spot on. Perfect in some cases, even. There are times when the largest difference is just the wording itself and is simply given flavor, or uses a variety of wording so that sentences don't sound repetitive.

Yet when it comes to those two (individually but also between the two of them), the context quickly devolves into being either completely changed, the tones used are completely changed, and/or there's a slight alteration in the text that ends up giving a very particular notion that was not otherwise there (ex. "like a good knight" was added into Flynn's dialogue in a situation where he's being berated and yelled at, and it completely comes across as putting Flynn down the entire way through the conversation, versus him coming around and taking responsibility and that being accepted. In the original he simply mentions following his orders as a knight. There's no attempt to sound like the narrative itself is trying to insult him or bring him down).

I made these posts precisely because a heavy majority of the changed context involved them, and a lot of it either portrays Flynn in a negative light for the vast majority of the game which was not originally present, or it made Yuri come across as a much darker, scarier, "cool" type, which is a pretty stark contrast to his original personality/behavior.

Other things:

Yuri:

A lot of his lines come out neutral/flat, and that got even worse, like a hundred times worse, in his new DE lines. Yuri is pretty peppy in JP, and as a reference I would say his victory quotes are a big indicator of the personality shift ("cool" guy versus "silly" guy would be a big one for me). Other than that, Yuri is more silly and almost childish, sometimes even pretty pouty, and it shows blatantly right in his voice. He's also extremely not threatening to people who are not his enemy (liiike threatening Ioder with a real weapon with a serious voice).

I think the easiest way to explain this from my own perspective is that I adore JP Yuri completely. Dub Yuri I often find myself wanting to punch in the face for how he treats Flynn, Ioder and the one time, Leblanc. He lacks compassion in the dub where he otherwise does have it (even if it's not him being rude vocally/tonally, the dub dropped a load of emotional nuance in his voice). He's not a rough, overly cool edgy man (I hate people saying Yuri is an edgelord because damn if that ain't the farthest thing from the truth in JP, but it also shows how much they really leaned into that trope in the dub if people actually walked out of the game feeling that way about Yuri). He's a silly, goofy, caring man who is very gentle with people when they need a boost. That doesn't mean he doesn't have his "scary" dark moments, but the dub obviously leaned super far into it - enough that they would change Yuri mentioning punching someone to outright threatening to use a weapon against an unarmed man who is actually being quite polite.

Basically, he has a range of emotions and he has a lot of emotional intelligence. As one example, when he sees Karol down and sad when they first meet, he changes his tone to a combination of how you'd talk to a child with that child-y tone (he does this at the base of Halure's tree when he's asking Karol how to heal the tree), but then sometimes he shifts to actual gentle and soft to let Karol know he's there for him (when he's heading out to the woods to find the eggbear).

Ultimately, my point is that they took a perfectly well rounded character and changed him to, what? Fit their own bias/agenda/whatever? Because I can't look at both Yuris and be like "same person". I've never wanted to punch JP Yuri in the face. Only hugs here. What I'm saying is that I came out of both versions with two very different opinions on Yuri.

Next, Flynn (and Ioder and Leblanc).

Starting with Flynn, I get a very strong mindset of anti government shoved into the dub with these characters (i.e. not just the unnamed bad people in the government and the few named bad ones, but also directed toward the good ones, making it a more black and white approach). The dub makes Yuri out to be aggressive toward Flynn on the spot when they see each other again despite that in the original audio, he's not at all actually upset. He understands why Flynn is upset and that he's stressed out with his current mission. And no, the whole "Flynn swung a sword at him!" doesn't work here. Yuri knows Flynn. Very, very well. He reeeeally was not mad about that... especially if, you know, his tone in JP was anything to go by during and after. Flynn was the more upset one between the two, and Yuri remains calm - again, indicating his emotional intelligence and, most likely as it's not directly said, determining that being worked up about it would only cause Flynn more aggravation/stress. Thus, he doesn't press any buttons and remains calm. It makes his smile to Flynn later at Torim make that much more sense.

The thing is, I get the impression the dub wanted us rooting for Yuri and cheering for him digging into Flynn, when that was literally not the point of their interactions. We're not supposed to always blindly follow Yuri. Sometimes he is right, but sometimes Flynn is right. Like. That's it. That's the game. Not everything is simple or black and white. There's nuance.

That and/or like, someone in the loc team really hated Flynn. Based on everything, I'm... not against believing that at this point. Basically, the dub portrays Flynn in a negative light at most (arguably all) possible opportunities around every turn, even though the context/tone for that did not originally exist, until it couldn't anymore (i.e. he was past his character arc).

Ioder and Leblanc.

Ioder never does anything except keep Yuri in the loop, tell him important information and be genuinely happy to see him. There was never any vitriol between them. The way dub Yuri gives him an attitude just comes out of nowhere. Their relationship is pretty casual, which is pretty meaningful given that Ioder is on track to be on the emperor and Yuri is, plain and simple, a commoner. One who rescued Ioder, yes, but if Ioder was a "typical" noble in this game, he might have just brushed that off as "to be expected", even if Yuri didn't know he was saving a noble at first. Point being, Ioder is nothing but pleasant toward Yuri. Yuri has no reason to be rude, much less threaten him.

At Baction, JP Yuri is understanding that Leblanc needs to grieve and is in disbelief. He doesn't know if Leblanc will try to stop them, but he does offer his condolences with the tone of his voice, i.e. again: emotional intelligence. Something they changed in the dub to be nothing but rudeness and anger. Yuri made a statement to him at that moment, i.e. not to get in their way (mind you, again, he's polite about it given the situation), but not without understanding in his tone, which is a very common aspect of Yuri in his entirety. His wording (in general, not strictly with this specific scene) comes out rough and lacks politeness, but that's made up for in how he speaks to people (either relaxed, casual, gentle, etc).

In other words, the dub pretty much always slaps a point of view bias against these characters and uses Yuri as their proxy for it. Yuri, normally, in the original context, just treats them as human beings with ebb and flow in all of their emotions and situations. Things aren't black and white - humans are complex - and that is not the point of view that I feel we're given by way of dub Yuri. We're given a man who is constantly using anger in his voice toward imperial figures even when it's completely unwarranted, and even when he knows the people in question.

Other Stuff:

Assorted things are different mainly because of the acting, but Raven's goofiness got toned way down and Karol screams much... quieter, I guess you could say. They're both more lively in general though than how they were in the dub, so that's a plus from me too.

Rita is significantly softer with Estelle in JP, and she also is much more noticeably devastated about Raven's "death" and more panicked for Karol at Zopheir. I do love Michelle Ruff's portrayal and don't know that I truly have a preference, but I think a lot of Rita's emotional barrier breaking is truly expressed more in JP.

You know I gotta bring it up: Yuri and Flynn's relationship was kind of a mess in the dub. It gives the impression of Yuri being angry a lot more often than he ever actually is, and gives off the impression that we're supposed to dislike Flynn more than we're supposed to like him. Flynn isn't someone we're supposed to actively dislike, but the portrayal of him as expressed through dub Yuri does not come off as "we're supposed to like or root for this guy", when they're much closer than that in JP.

So yeah. The bulk of this is that Yuri is just not the same person to me between versions. Also, Vesperia has way more content in Japan (drama CDs galore frankly, and Yuri is still insanely popular in Japan and is thus a frequent character alt release in the gacha games and so has tons of voice lines and general story content, there's new merch of him every year because they make merch for the characters that have their voice actors showing up to TalesFes, etc).

There's much more ease in seeing JP Yuri's personality through all of it. I think it may be more difficult for people who don't understand Japanese or any Japanese at all, and that's such a shame to me because all those people get otherwise, without anyone posting about JP Yuri, is this... weird shell of Yuri that I sometimes even hesitate to call a shell because he just feels completely different to me.

Anyway uh I love Yuri (and Flynn) and that was the point of all this, but uh... if you made it this far thank you bunches and I hope people who maybe didn't like Yuri and/or Flynn who only knew the dub will change their perspectives. 🙇‍♀️

Side update:

People have since been saying Troy was partially responsible for dub Yuri's attitude and it's the same information across people- that he had more freedom to do what he wanted with the portrayal. On that note, I feel like I'd heard this before some time back, but I couldn't remember where or if I was remembering wrong... but with this stuff in mind, I guess not. There's also the fact that, as mentioned in a reblog I've done, I've read something where he claimed he was "paying homage" to Toriumi's portrayal (to which he apparently didn't drop Toriumi's name, making me believe he did not even know it, which is honestly disrespectful imo, and I'm hoping that was a matter of the people interviewing him condensing what he said, but I can't be certain).

As I mentioned for this situation, Vesperia was the first Tales game to be released in the west at the same time as the JP release (or in this case very shortly after). Higuchi said the localization team was not in contact with the JP team. This means Troy could not have known what Toriumi's portrayal was and nor was there time to study it, as the game was released in both regions in close proximity. By the time the JP release happened, the acting on the English release would've been long finished.

This would mean Troy lied for PR and tried to make it sound good, possibly aware people would be impressed/appreciative, which is not only a lie, but is honestly an insult imo to Toriumi's work when the portrayals are nothing alike and he's implying he was inspired by Toriumi's work (despite them being nothing alike becoming obvious with audio alone). This also gives people the wrong idea because generally people would want to take that at his word and not immediately think it's not true.

Previously, I was willing to give Troy the benefit of the doubt that he didn't have too much influence on the dub versions' behavior, and that was also the case at the time I made these posts. However, between the interview with him lying about paying homage to a voice actor he apparently can't even name, and that he had influence on the direction of Yuri's tone despite that Yuri's tone already existed, I'm not interested in pretending he had nothing to do with it.

That said, I take back anything I may have said at any point about Troy not being reflected in my criticisms. Yes, I have been told "maybe they didn't have the audio though", and maybe they did. I don't know*.

*(update on this, I actually suspect they DID have the audio, because the earliest parts of the game in Zaphias seem like they were trying to actually imitate the tone of voice originally, and then just yeeted that our the window later. Basically, there are a handful of parts I've noticed in the beginning of the game that the tone of voice is way too close to have been a coincidence in those exact spots if they simply didn't have the audio. That would mean, in this situation, they were fully aware of Yuri's tone throughout the game and actively chose not to reflect that in the dub.)

But I do know the localization team is still largely at fault (again, regardless of who made the decision, because it wasn't necessarily the translators themselves. This refers to whoever made the decision) here because someone made the knowing decision to outright change Yuri's dialogue (when again, other stuff was accurate. This was intentional). And again, for whatever reason, they weren't in contact with the original team, and yes, Higuchi was pretty bummed about that.

Yes, I recognize this was many years ago and maybe Troy wouldn't do that again. However, in this particular situation, I do need to recognize that he did have some sway in how Yuri behaved in the dub, and I am certainly not happy that he lied about paying homage, which becomes very obvious just with audio alone, but given Higuchi's statement, well... suffice to say I'm not happy with what he did. I could've gotten past him having more freedom with the acting if that wasn't coupled with the homage comment, but... yeah. I personally can't really look past it.

Do I hate the guy? No, and I recognize this was well over a decade ago. I'm just very aggravated that this happened at all and I can't say he didn't have a hand in it because he did.

And before anyone wants to cry "she hates localizations!", no, I don't. There's a reason I point to Graces when I talk about localizations. I appreciate good and faithful localizations. To me, Yuri is not by any means a good or faithful localization. Believe me, I used to have nostalgia goggles on too. They were strong. I used to really love Troy's performance too. Those nostalgia goggles came off when I started to realize, well, everything (this is also not a dunk on the other actors. I have some gripes with Flynn's VA's comments about Flynn, but otherwise, this stuff really doesn't extend to the other actors). There are also very few localizations I get this deep into this sort of thing with, and some I would even defend.

Anyway! Again! For real this time! Thanks for reading! I do honestly appreciate it and your interest!

#GTF JP Vesperia Stuff #Yuri Lowell #you know... one of the best ways to express Yuri's differences is that I could never imagine dub Yuri's voice #coming out of Yuri's mouth with all the official artwork he gets in JP LOL #he's like. the most feminine nearly dainty motherfucker out of any of the guys (except like. Jay. who he's on par with LOL)#Japan out here putting bows+ribbons in his hair calling him Yuri hime in an anni skit and putting him in a dress in a drama CD and my god #but yeah regardless in the game the differences are... so much. SO so so so much vocal difference ESPECIALLY #there's just. a lot. and I feel like the dub did a MASSIVE disservice to Yuri as a character/as a person #similarly I'd say the same thing happened to Flynn with them doing a MASSIVE disservice to him in the same way #a LOT of Flynn's softness was flattened imo just... not as badly as everything about Yuri #JP Yuri is SUUUPER expressive in his tone and it's such an immersive experience #but also it like breaks my heart seeing how some ppl portray Yuri in the western fandom #esp with Flynn bc it's so so different from the JP fandom. and like again #it's bc the dub has Yuri being REALLY mean and rude to Flynn SO SO often #and he just sounds so bitchy so often when he's not supposed to at all!#there's so much to love abt JP Yuri and he's just... my silly little guy and I love him sm #and honestly my main problem isn't even with the character they made him out to be in the dub so much as #it's the fact that they changed him at all but also that they changed him and flattened him #like... I don't hate the character himself I hate what they did to create him bc it was at the cost of. well. -gestures-#I just think that JP Yuri is a significantly better character and it's a shame I think that at all bc #they shouldn't feel like two different characters at all but they do #I hope if you read this far that you'll give JP Yuri a chance bc he is SO precious and JP Flynn is ALSO SO precious #I wish I wasn't so upset abt what the dub did bc it'd make my life easier LOL #but I love my boys too much so... here we are I guess lol

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exhausted-archivist · 1 year ago

Text

In regards to my last reblog on the scale of Thedas, latitude and stuff. I’ve been thinking about how much thought I give all this. Especially because this topic is one I’ve been talking with a lot of people about lately. It crops up a lot with people who, like me enjoy natural world building or are fanfic writers. Or really anyone who sits down and reads the lore at length. More times then not the question of Thedas’s scale comes up.

So, I want to establish I am very well aware that I’m likely giving it more thought than the devs. I have that luxury as a fan and consumer of the series. It is extremely relevant for me because I like making maps for the series, plotting out travel paths, and scaling things for da ttrpg campaigns I write.

So because I think about it a lot, I notice all the many different scales of Thedas in terms of travel time. How the scale they gave the ttrpg doesn’t match up with any scale they established in the main games or books. I think if the devs sat down and thought about establishing a standard scale and also considering just basic stuff we also wouldn’t have the Deep Roads be 2-4 miles / 3.21-6.43 km below sea level and display a lack of geothermal qualities. I think they’d consider how they built a world with at least 9.1 million people and tons of mega fauna such as giants and dragons and 14’/4.26 m tall bears that hunt dragons, all squished into roughly 1/4 of Europe and how much that isn’t really sustainable. How there would be much more impact if nature encroachment in civilization and how common things like that would be in places. Which they do consider it to a degree, I’m not saying they don’t. But I think if they thought about it just to make the world something that holds up a little better to idle musings, it wouldn’t be a bad thing. That the world would feel more real and alive and also narratively give them more to work with.

The contradictions and lack of consideration for the natural world has always been one of my critiques of Dragon Age, among other things. The reason why that is, is mostly because of a noticeable trend the lack of natural world building in fantasy. It’s a topic that has been discussed elsewhere and at length by other people, but to summarize nature is slowly having less and less impact in fantasy even in an ambient quality. Obviously this isn’t a universal statement, nor a universally required thing for a story to explore and have. That there are things that do focus on and explore it, but speaking in general terms, it is a trend in the majority of media.

Which for me is a bummer as it is an aspect of writing and world building I enjoy. I really like themes of man vs nature and to have that you need to have a basic level of natural world building. Which BioWare doesn’t really explore in Dragon Age despite having elements of it - such as how regular raw lyrium is explosive, mages get sick around all lyrium unless it is diluted to a safe amount for mages, and raw lyrium straight up kills them if they’re in the same room.

So then you have questions of how do mages go/handle being underground with such a risk? Dwarves have stone sense but would mages be able to tell when they’re getting close to large lyrium deposits because they’re getting sick? Does this impact grey warden mages? Darkspawn mages?

Things that don’t get fully acknowledged or explored despite being mentioned casually in codices most people don’t read. And they don’t for a couple of reasons such as potential coding issues but also all the questions you’d have to ask:

How would you implement that as a mechanic? Would you lock mage players out of entire areas featuring raw lyrium? Would they take environmental damage if you wanted the players to explore it regardless? Would it be a mechanic only applied by in harder difficulty modes? Do you acknowledge it in banter but not in any other way? Create a way to explain why the pc mage and their mage companions aren’t dropping dead?

BioWare’s answer seems to seemingly just ignore it because it would make gameplay too challenging/punishing and likely might not be fun for a player to deal with. But they compromise by keeping the lore active in the canon through codices and low impact additions. Which is a completely okay solutions, not my preferred but I get why they do it.

When I approach this lore, I do so without expecting them to fully flesh out each nation or know which city has the most resources and the geologically rich lands in said country. Dragon Age, and BioWare in general, relies on semi-soft world building. The world was after all designed for a game. They only need to build out what they need and what hopefully won’t paint them into a corner with future installments.

Additionally, the writing style for Dragon Age doesn’t suit the hard world building that I prefer, I’m quite aware of that but also know that when it comes to talk about world building in any media, there is always the issue of people (like me) who world build for fun and consider all these small aspects but ultimately they aren’t always needed and necessary for the story a game like Dragon Age is telling.

Dragon Age is told with the intention of things being given from an unreliable narrator. Built on the concept of: there’s three sides to the truth, what x thinks happens, what y thinks happens, and then what actually happened. Which works and I love the premise.

That said, I think that it also impacts lore that shouldn’t be subjected to the unreliable narrator. Foundation or anchor lore points to be specific. Which, as we know, BioWare has always struggled with consistency in their lore, particularly with Dragon Age.

Distance is one of those foundational points that shouldn’t change, and it’s also one of those points that you don’t have to give exact travel times. You can leave it vague and stick to the official statements like the ones we have of Ferelden being the size of England (or Ireland depending on the source you use). If you’re going to be giving specifics, then I think being consistent with how long it travels to get to point a to b and not changing it multiple times in one game should be a basic expectation that is met.

Other ones the series has and is pretty consistent with is how we know Thedas has 24 hours a day, they have seasons like we expect, and are in the southern hemisphere.

Do they sometimes slip up because editing doesn’t catch they’ve made a reference that applies only to the northern hemisphere? Yeah, and that’s not bad. There are a lot of people working on the project and things slip through.

I know I have the luxury to think about Thedas in a capacity that allows for the hard world building that I like. I also know I focus on and enjoy aspects of lore that are not exactly popular for their main audience and are pretty niche.

I don’t expect BioWare to world build how I do because I’m not world building for a massive and varied audience. Not even when I do world building for my tabletop games, because I’m catering to a smaller and more specific audience.

Still I think it’s valid and worth pondering these little elements of the world building. For fun, appreciation, and to nurture one’s own creativity and understanding of media, the world, and what they think makes a believable world.

Devs might not have time to consider it but we sure do and that’s half the fun of enjoying media I think.

#dragon age #archi is musing #long post #I saw some people on my older posts while I was writing this talk about how its ‘not that deep’ and not everything needs to be explained #and like I’m aware of that lol #I’m just critiquing how logic and immersion breaking it can be to not be consistent on the fundamentals #how much I personally don’t enjoy a world built that starts crumbling if you think too hard on all the provided lore #love the game and the series but evaluating the media you consume and engage with is a good practice to have #as a creative who world builds knowing what I value and like in world building allows me to grow as one #I also think dragon age has a lot of really cool and under used elements of natural world building and while I would love to focus on that #BioWare gives the curve ball where I’m sent down a rabbit hole often because I realize it doesn’t make sense in context of the lore

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