#again do not harass this person

[hopalongfairywren]

This account dedicated to hating on victims just followed me Oh my god you cannot be serious. One of those abuser apologists followed my alt account.

I'm not hiding who this person is because in 2024, a year in which the international misogynistic alt-right backlash reactionary-ism has ended with known and proud abuser, sexist, predator as president of the United States. A concerning proportion of Gen Z men and boys are getting radicalized off Andrew Tate and Redpill garbage, and victims are openly being mocked. I am in no mood to look away at the infiltration of even more places for young, queer, and neurodivergent people by covert MRAism, victim blaming and misogyny. Like I did not even have to scroll to see this vile shit these people are saying to each other other openly. You. You are contributing to this anti-victim narrative. You are choosing to psychoanalysis a situation in which you are parasocially involved in. You are having more sympathy for the perpetrator then the victim. You are the ones turning this whole thing into sport team esq shit. Do not harass this person. Block if you haven't already, because I know we do a lot of "unfollow/block if you support x" here, but it's like playing whackamole, sadly. There's always more. And for the love of god do not even for one second allow the kind of environment that has these people gleefully talking about how much they hate Shubble, whining about how unfair everything is to Wilbur take form here.

[funhouse-mirror-barbie]

What it should mean to support ALL survivors—Fandom discourse and the depiction of sexual assault in media.

So. Okay.

Below is a video that, in my opinion, is a very well thought out and respectful critique of the writing decisions surrounding Angel Dust’s character and purpose in Hazbin’s narrative.

The author of the video does a great job clearly stating their thoughts and opinions, and put a lot of effort into explaining their reasoning in a concise and easy to understand way.

I really recommend giving it a watch—(TW for discussions of rape, sexual assault and abuse. )

However, one of the most important things about this video though, is that the author, Limus, takes the time to specify that the video is only her opinion, and that she does not want to invalidate the feelings of other people or survivors who like or feel represented by Angel Dust. (More below)

In their conclusion, Limus states, “…If you enjoyed “Hazbin Hotel” and Angel Dust as a character, that’s fine. I don’t want you to walk away from this thinking your opinion is less than mine. People have their own reasons for liking media, and the discourse surrounding this show and the harassment that people receive just for liking it is unacceptable. You can have your reasons for disliking a show, but people can also have their reasons for liking it as well. Everything I have said in this video is in relation to my own personal life…”

I was REALLY glad and really relieved that Limus took the time to specify this, because one of my biggest grievances with the discourse regarding Hazbin’s depictions of sexual abuse, assault and rape, is that I see a LOT of people, both critics and fans, disregarding the experiences and feelings of survivors with opinions opposite to theirs.

Specifically, I saw a LOT of people talking about the portrayal of sexual abuse in Hazbin, and media in general, as if it was something that could be judged as being OBJECTIVELY “good” or “bad”.

And then proceeding to argue with people over their opinions and feelings as if they were in some sort of debate and the other person’s beliefs could be disproven.

This was really frustrating to me, because I’m hyper-aware of how media is extremely subjective especially when it comes to serious topics like sexual assault, violence, substance addiction, abuse, etc. etc.

So, I’m going to talk, in detail, about what I see as a lot of hypocrisy within fandom and critical spaces.

This really started in January of this year (2024) when a trailer (or maybe a leak? Sorry I can’t remember) for Hazbin came out, and a scene from Poison was shown.

There were a lot of people who were really concerned with the way Angel Dust’s abuse was shown in the preview, a good amount of them survivors of sexual abuse themselves, and from there the discourse got pretty out of hand.

Worst of all though, people, both fans and critics, allegedly started demanding “proof” of survivor’s assault from those they disagreed with.

This was very gross behavior, and I don’t care what your opinion on Hazbin Hotel is, NO ONE should have done that. It’s not only incredibly invalidating, but also potentially re-traumatizing.

Seriously. I hope ANYONE who engaged in this behavior, REGARDLESS of if they love Hazbin and think it’s the best thing in the world or if they hate it and think it’s the worst piece of media ever, were able to take a step back and realize how hurtful and inappropriate their actions were. And hopefully grow from that.

What disappointed me the most though was seeing Hazbin’s creator’s reaction to all of this. It was, in my opinion, very hypocritical and set the stage for the sort of harassment that is continuing in the fandom today.

A Disclaimer—this is going to be one of the ONLY TIMES I talk directly about the creator of Hazbin Hotel, Vivienne “Vivziepop” Medrano. I’m doing so because she was engaging directly and openly with this discourse when it was happening, and I think it’s important to talk about her actions and reactions because it provides some context for the background in regards to the ongoing conversations surrounding Hazbin’s SA depictions.

I generally do not like publicly talking about or making judgements on creators as people based on the art they create, because while a creator’s art is almost always influenced by their personality and experiences, it’s not a good way to judge someone’s ENTIRE character. All people are multi-faceted, and the art or media we create usually reflects only part of someone. Additionally, people use art, fiction, and media to explore all kinds of things, including things they would never do or want in real life, and that’s valid and normal. Obviously.

But when a creator publicly expresses an opinion in regards to ongoing discourse, of course people are allowed to discuss it and have their own opinions. Especially when that creator has a lot of fans who look to them as a role-model. Not saying that Vivziepop is responsible for actions of her fans, but when you are a public figure like she is, I do think it’s important to be as mindful as you can about your influence.

With all of that said. Yeah. I was. Incredibly disappointed by Vivziepop’s reaction to this. Because, I actually do agree with a lot of the things she was saying about supporting survivors—

I 100% agree with this. Everyone processes trauma differently, and that should be respected. We should not judge survivors for how they cope or process their trauma.

If this statement was made in response to the all judgement and struggles that survivors generally have to deal with, I would not have any issue with it whatsoever.

But. It wasn’t. Vivziepop said this because people were criticizing Hazbin Hotel—specifically there were survivors who were upset and triggered by scenes from the musical sequence “Poison” that leaked prior to Hazbin’s official release.

Now, obviously, I can’t know her true intent or beliefs. But her bringing all of this up after she had received criticism from survivors about her show leads me to believe that she doesn’t really care about supporting all survivors. Especially since after she said this, she proceeded to dismiss the concerns that several survivors brought to her because “the show hadn’t come out yet”.

To me, this is just hypocrisy.

Now, to be fair. Im also an artist. I understand feeling like your art or story is your baby, and feeling really protective of it. In some ways I was conflicted when all of this was happening back in January, because I get the frustration and hurt that comes with people not liking your art or not giving it a chance.

That can be very disheartening, and definitely feels unfair. I can empathize with Vivziepop in regard to that, because I don’t know how I would handle the amount of criticism her art gets. I’ve had my art criticized pretty harshly online, and it does really hurt. I really can’t imagine how emotionally taxing that is on such a large scale.

But with all of that said, at the end of the day, as creator, especially a creator making something for widespread international audiences, you have to learn how to be okay with the fact that your art, whether it’s music, visual arts, storytelling, or whatever, will not be universally loved. That’s pretty much impossible, and it’s also okay.

And while you obviously don’t have to listen to EVERY bit of criticism you receive, I do think it is vitally important to listen to criticism and concerns when they come from a whole group of people you are trying to represent.

This was Vivziepop’s response to survivors of sexual assault who asked to have their concerns about Angel Dust and the portrayal of his assault also taken seriously:

In my opinion, these replies are all really dismissive. I agree with everything Vivziepop said about survivors who felt represented being spoken over was also wrong. But these are survivors being open about how Vivziepop’s show has already affected them negatively, and the fear that their reactions to and opinions on the show will be, or in some cases—have already been, invalidated and called into question by the Hazbin fandom.

Vivzie’s response to them is that the show hasn’t come out yet, so they are getting upset “preemptively”. It really comes across like their concerns did not matter to Vivziepop, and like it didn’t matter to her that they had already been triggered or felt as if the handling of the scene was fetishistic based on what came out.

She states that her fans are “speaking out on their own experiences and reminding that the scene isn’t out yet”. I’m not denying that some fans do feel represented, but to me, it doesn’t, and didn’t matter if the show hadn’t come out yet.

The full episode can’t magically “take back” the fact that a lot of survivors saw this small clip on its own and it was enough to affect them. And that is just as valid of an experience as people who felt represented.

And listen. No group of people is a monolith and that includes survivors. People WILL have many differing opinions about the way sensitive topics are portrayed, especially when it’s as traumatic as sexual assault and abuse.

I am not saying Vivziepop should have somehow magically concocted a show that handles sexual assault objectively perfectly and pleases every survivor ever. That’s impossible, and I would NEVER ask or expect ANYONE to be able to do that.

But, it’s very clear to me in the interactions above that the people who were upset only wanted their opinions and experiences to be heard and respected as well, and they were essentially told that their feelings didn’t matter.

And to me, Vivziepop’s reaction to all of this was really giving Sia circa 2020:

I really think that, a lot of this could have been mitigated if someone from the Hazbin team, not even necessarily Vivziepop, had just acknowledged, “hey, you’re absolutely in your right to not like the scene and those feelings are valid”.

But there is a very strange sort of hypocrisy that is almost like. Tinted with virtue signaling*??? About listening to all survivors voices, while simultaneously dismissing the voices of survivors that are saying they have already been hurt.

THAT is what bothers me the most. It really seems like the only survivors that a lot of people involved in this discourse, including Vivziepop, were willing to listen to or validate were the ones that already agreed with them.

If you are going to support survivors you DO have to ACTUALLY SUPPORT ALL survivors. Even if they disagree with you.

If you’re still with me, I really really appreciate it. I felt I had to go over all of this to add context, because the concerns those survivors talked about over 10 months ago, foreshadowed the EXACT situation that some people in the Hazbin fandom have now put Limus in.

All because, after the episode came out, they expressed their honest opinions on the subject matter and the way Angel Dust was written in a way fans disagreed with.

I find it really disturbing that, the whole point of Vivziepop’s dismissal was that the show hadn’t come out, and that she said she would “respect” if people had concerns AFTER it came out. But I haven’t really seen any acknowledgment from her that survivors, who after seeing the whole scene, were still negatively affected.

The below is a tweet Vivziepop liked shortly after the episode came out in full.

I agree that any survivors who felt seen by Angel Dust and the show and were invalidated and had their experiences dismissed and questioned by others deserve apologies. But I can’t help but think about the fans who didn’t feel the same, who were hurt, and triggered by the depiction of SA before AND after the show released. I don’t want to read to much into likes, because people like shit for all sorts of reasons, but Vivziepop liking this tweet saying she deserves an apology too does rub me the wrong way, especially after she was told that survivors have ALREADY been hurt.

Don’t those people deserve apologies too? Or at the very least just an acknowledgment that their hurt and concern was valid?? It just comes off to me as a confirmation that Vivziepop doesn’t really want to listen to ALL survivors, just the ones that haven’t criticized her and praised her show.

To clarify—just as Limus did at the end of her video—I AM NOT SAYING THAT SA SURVIVORS WHO DIDNT LIKE THE SHOW’S HANDLING OF SA ARE THE “CORRECT” SURVIVORS AND THAT PEOPLE WHO FELT SEEN AND REPRESENTED BY ANGEL DUST AND THE SHOWS WRITING ARE “WRONG”.

The WHOLE POINT of me going over ALL of this is to take a look at the hypocrisy of many people both in the fandom and outside of it who SAY they care about ALL survivors feelings and experiences, but then call those experiences into question the MOMENT a survivor has an opinion different than their own.

And sadly, I personally believe the creator of Hazbin also contributed hugely to this hypocrisy.

When we look at what happened in January, it now feels weirdly prescient. People are treating Limus’ opinion as if she is personally attacking them, or saying that their experiences are invalid. She did not do that.

It also seems like a lot of people who like Angel Dust and feel he represents them are taking Limus’ critique of the character writing decisions made for Angel Dust, who is not a real person and does not exist, as personal attacks on their real lived experiences. She did not do that either. She was extremely clear that her opinions were in regards to the way Angel Dust was written as a character.

But because Limus critiqued Angel Dust, her experience with abuse has been called into question, just like the above survivors that were concerned about all of this way back in January. This is absolutely fucking unacceptable.

I am saying this to CRITICS AND FANS of Hazbin Hotel and Helluva Boss, and fuck it, honestly ALL fandoms—If you have engaged in this sort of behavior, you have got to stop. I think the love and passion you have for the art that is important to you is beautiful and wonderful. But NOTHING justifies treating other people this way. It does not matter how much you love a certain character or how much they comfort you or what solace you find in them. There is NO EXCUSE for bullying and harassing someone over this shit.

I am saying this fully aware that it may cause people to get mad at me and want to send me hate. And honestly that’s fine. I will deal with it if it comes. But I couldn’t sit here and watch so many people shit on someone for talking about their experiences and opinions again.

Please, if you find the tweets/threads I referenced in this post, DO NOT ENGAGE WITH THEM OR HARASS THE POSTERS. This whole long massive post was all about why we should NOT do that.

When these conversations happen, I often see people just. Putting words into other’s mouths like it’s an Olympic sport. If someone says they don’t like the way Angel is written, they are not saying your experiences are invalid. If someone says they love the way Angel is written, they are not saying you have to love him and feel represented by him too.

Please. Please try to empathize with each other. Or at the very least, maybe just take some time to sit with your feelings instead of harassing others. I’m using Hazbin as an example because it’s a fandom I’ve had experience with recently, but this really does apply to all fandoms.

As I final note—if you love Angel Dust and think he’s the best written character and feel really represented and seen by him, that’s wonderful and I’m really happy to hear that the show was cathartic or comforting for you. Genuinely.

And if you hated the way Angel Dust was written and the show triggered you, I am so sorry that happened. It is so painful to re-live trauma like that, and I hope any that pain you felt from being reminded of what happened eased quickly and gently.

Both of your experiences and opinions are completely valid, and you have every right to express your opinions to others. Your trauma is real, and however you process it and cope with it should not be judged by anyone.

I just ask that we all be more respectful, and try to be curious about other’s perspectives regarding this stuff.

Thank you again for bearing with me through all of this. I hope you have a great day or night.

*I really really HATE the term “virtue signaling” because in MOST cases, I only ever see it being used to dismiss minorities and allies concerns about injustices. But, given the circumstances of this situation, I do think it’s actually appropriate here, given that survivors where expressing their concerns to Vivziepop and she was justifying her dismissal of them by saying the show hadn’t come out yet, and then went on to say that all survivors mattered. I don’t know whatever word I should have used, other than it just being hypocritical. Again I hate that term, and wouldn’t be using it here if I didn’t really believe it was appropriate and accurate.

[risingsunresistance]

sorry him saying he has no idea where the misogyny thing comes from when ludwig just talked about how he sent him a big apology for calling his friend a whore when it was about THE WRONG WOMAN is funny as fuck

i dont think he realizes that the reason no one gives a shit about his apologies and honestly just straight up ignores them is because EVEN IN THE EVENT THAT THEY ARE TRUE he's been proven to lie soooooo many times to the point where you really cant believe a word that comes out of his mouth. he says something and im like "damn maybe i was wrong about that one... i'll look into it" and you get more info and go "oh. he just made that part up. and misworded that. and lied about that part... oh it was actually WORSE than i initially thought!"

[boinky-spoinky]

🍥 Took me a while but it was worth it 🍥

[stari-hun]

Yeah I mean like sure Forget me not could always end up switching sides to Vertin’s team one day like Druvis and other manus personnel have but Carbuncle Jr’s funniness and evil aura are the best parts of him. If you have him a redemption arc unless he became a cry baby or sumn as intense you’d be ridding him of all seasonings

Yk the funniest part with that too? Like not EVERYONE hated him. He’s SO annoying with his menacing when you read the side content because he’s like SIGNIFICANTLY less unfortunate than some of the people in the game and they never even considered turning evil. Not that I’m down playing the divine right of a person to go apeshit over years of piled in discrimination but like the evil to backstory misfortune ratio is kindaaaaa funny.

[telestoapologist]

i also think enough time has passed to say that like. while that fan-made destiny dating sim is very cute and sweet, it was. incredibly weird and persistent about the fat jokes/shaming with spider to the point of discomfort with me. like hell i'd even go as far to say that it wasn't necessary to include any of that at all sdfgbvfds.

[darabeatha]

Valentines' personality test ! : 𝐓𝐇𝐄 𝐀𝐃𝐕𝐄𝐑𝐒𝐀𝐑𝐘, 𝐓𝐇𝐄 𝐄𝐕𝐈𝐋 𝐎𝐍𝐄. 𝐋.𝐔𝐂𝐈𝐅𝐄𝐑.

[langfield]

This is a pretty dumb question, but you're an interesting person so I'd like to see your perspective on it. I realize people tend to give flack to people in the fandom who enjoy games made by Deck Nine, due to their games usually suffering from the same issues and because the studio itself has the Nazi and sexual harassment allegations ehich are of course problematic. I don't think people who like DE and True Colors deserve harassment, you and other people definitely don't deserve harassment. If anything you seem to have far more grace and give it to far more than other people have. I guess I'm really wondering how do you go about navigating the conversation that is Deck Nine? Do you think it's s good idea to seperate the art and the artist, or do you have an alternate interpretation of it?

hello! thank you so much for the question ( which is not at all dumb, by the way! ), because i think deck nine’s mistreatment of employees is important to address whether one likes their lis games or not. i’ll preface this by saying that i rarely ever get involved in behind the scenes production for medias i consume, mostly because it never enriches or devalues the experience for me. there are, of course, interesting things to discern from the creators ; you can easily find out why maybe the latter half of a story fell flat, or why certain characters disappeared, and a bunch of fun little details like that … but that extra knowledge is merely icing on the cake for me, rather than a part of the cake itself. while the people behind a game are important, i’ve always put more weight into my own interpretation of events, which can either align with author’s intent or not. to me, media is always what you personally make of it, and as a very queer person in an extremely straight world ( whose opinions hardly mesh with fanon takes held as gospel ), i’m used to crafting my own stories within works that aren’t exactly what was meant to be displayed. don’t get me wrong! i’m well aware of the canons i indulge in! i can easily find out what a lis game was trying to accomplish ( given how unsubtle said games are ) i just might add my own spin or flavor to it. i think everything ever made exists to be interpreted in multiple ways : so pouring over companies and the conditions behind them aren’t exactly on my to-do list.

however, i am well aware of deck nine’s mistreatment of employees. i’ve read articles discussing true color’s shitshow and i follow a former double exposure writer who was laid off, one who has no qualms complaining about it and the impossible work conditions they were under. it is all very bad and very true, and that deserves to be acknowledged. anytime i defend double exposure ( or before the storm, or true colors ) i am never defending deck nine as a company! i do not care for deck nine like that, nor am i inclined to give them grace … the sympathy i give is always towards the actual employees, especially the writers of said games, whom fans are excessively cruel towards. it absolutely disgusts me when fans claim that the writers of de deserved to be fired before christmas because they did a ‘bad job’ -- when the reality is that the writers are phenomenal people who did their best to make a game and characters worth caring about. the flaws of double exposure is entirely based on how deck nine refused to let the writers breathe! they had to change the story seven thousand times because deck nine wasn’t happy, and because deck nine was betting on making a sequel, much to the dismay of said writers.

i, personally, do not understand people who hate before the storm, true colors, and double exposure simply because deck nine made it. while i support acquiring games illegally so as to not support corrupt companies, i think you should give these games a try regardless. many of the employees on deck nine who suffered through sexual harassment and general abuse have said that it brings them joy to see people love the games they worked on, or the characters they helped create. many have said that the writing that is praised in these games were decisions marginalized people on these writing teams fought for. the people deck nine has abused do care for the games they’ve created, and care for them passionately! :

the last two screenshots are rather important to me, as they prove that the writers do indeed understand the life is strange games and franchise. many claim they don’t, but they do! and they’re the ones who have fought to keep lis as lis as possible. they love these games and tried to do them as much justice as they were allowed. this is always important to understand, in my opinion.

so, where does that leave me? i think how i approach deck nine’s games is that i approach them as i would any other, out of respect to the employees who gave these games their all despite deck nine’s toxic environment. perhaps i’m far more lenient on the mistakes inherent in their games because i know the writers couldn’t make the games how they wanted, which would’ve probably be leagues better than the ones we got. i appreciate what these people fought to include ( like the topics of racism, empathy, and queerness ) and i condemn deck nine for what they’ve done, but i don’t condemn the poor employees for doing the best they could under impossible circumstances. their works are weak and aren’t even close to perfect, yet i find extremely enjoyable content within said works anyway. these employees have explicitly stated their thanks and desire for people to enjoy these games, so that’s what i shall do! it’s less of a ‘seperate the work from the author’ and more of a ‘the author isn’t just some soulless company, the author was people, queer and poc and otherwise, so it’s fine to acknowledge the abuse they faced while still connecting to their games as they have encouraged us to do.’ deck nine sucks. and maybe their lis games suck. but i find it more important to respect the victims behind the games who have made their opinions clear rather than feign activism by hating the games these victims poured their blood, sweat, and tears into, all while claiming i’m hating these games for said victims. that’s just my opinion, though! people can always do as they like, but this is how i deal with deck nine’s toxicity while also engaging with the lis titles they’ve created.

[fangirlanxiety74]

Sooo. Putting this on my main blog because this is where I'm known for my ihnmaims stuff.

Guess who found the person who's been harassing AM selfshippers because they don't know how to read the source material, and decided to make up lies about said material :3

And now they're harassing minors! Wonderful!

Am I gonna name-drop them like they name-dropped the selfshipper? No. Because I'm better than that. But if you DM and ask who it is, I will gladly tell you who so you can block them if you wish!

But also if you use it to send harassment back I am going to lose my shit on you! Let's not do that! Let's be better! It's literally why I'm not name dropping them publicly /Gen

Guys. I'm tired. PLEASE can we just not get on each other's case about who we ship with when we DON'T KNOW THE SOURCE. And maybe let's NOT HARASS MINORS? Thanks!

[getvalentined]

I wonder if people realize that if they don't like the way someone is organizing a fandom event, they can just make their own. They don't have to be nasty to the person heading up the event they don't like. They don't have to send anon messages with intent to make them feel bad. They don't have to spread lies about the person heading up the event. They don't have to do anything like this.

They can literally just make their own event. No one is stopping them.

But I guess I shouldn't expect better from this crowd.

[moraymoth]

I removed all the Ky-related posts, the only two I kept up were the one for Lou and the brainvomit. Sorry in advance.

ALSO PLEASE DO NOT HARRASS KY?? THAT WAS NOT MY INTENTION. DO NOT HARRASS THEM. PLEASE.

If I had known Ky was being harassed in ANY way over my opinion I would have immediately stopped posting about it oh my god

[undaughtered]

thinking about how ezra pound is responsible for all of this

[cervinae-canine]

The p3do (lacey is their name) is back

They haven’t made any sort of actual p3do content (aka them thinking minors are attractive) but still ship minor x adult stuff

!!!

[isekyaaa]

I still don't know why people are so flabbergasted and offended and disgusted by kaeluc. "But they're BROTHERS." Okay but they're not related. BUT IT'S (pseudo) INCESTUAL. Okay but they're gay? BUT IT'S MORALLY WRONG. They're two consenting adult gay men in a consentual adult homosexual relationship. Who exactly are they harming?

[smile-files]

at the end of the day... suitcase and marshmallow are cool as hell (whatever is going on with knife)

[cdroloisms]

I just came across your post about vagueposting and I think I agree with it, but the situation you most likely wrote it about is hardly a "vagueposting" because you could say who it was about after reading it literally one time and that person got jumped and insulted in the anon ask anyway so discussing it in person could be safer...

I'm reeeally sorry for bring up a past situation, but I don't think it's a good idea to write nasty things about another person and specific details about how they interact with the fandom and their post, say things that will help to easily identify a person and at the same time insult them or say how you think they feel about the characters or the story based on your feelings about their one take that you didn't like and then call it's "vague" because there is no name in the post. I mean, It can lead to bad consequences, it literally did in that situation.

And yes, I do think people have the right to discuss bad takes or takes they don't like, but there's a way to do it without giving away every detail about the post and the person who wrote it so everyone knows who you're talking about, and if you're not good at being vague, just discuss it in a private chat.

this ask is old but i was busy last week, so forgive me for the late response. i was debating answering it at all, but i dont want myself to be misunderstood, so just. to clarify under the cut.

i'll agree with you that the post/situation in question wasn't vagueing. now, i don't know exactly the difference between the number of followers i have and the number of followers that the blogger in question has, and when it comes to the number of active dsmp followers i think both of us have even less of a clue. that being said, both of us frequent much of the same circles, so i think it's fair to say that many of my posts will end up being exposed to a very similar audience to his, and so therefore this response about the situation you're talking about will be just about as clearly traceable to a specific person as the post he made that started the situation in question. just as a general observation.

if i'm understanding your ask correctly, while vagueing a take is fine, the vague shouldn't be clearly identifiable if you're going to speak badly about it or disagree heavily. to which i have to ask what, specifically, is defined as clearly identifiable? i think most takes in this fandom can be pretty easily traced to a person, even if that person is not the only person that believes in that take--just as an example, c!tommy as a butterfly pinned behind glass was a take in response to the c!sam and c!dream stream after techno escaped, and grew to be a pretty prominent theme to the point of a zine being modeled after it, but i can also trace it to a pretty specific tumblr post with a name attached. i also think that that same statement probably isn't true for many fans who maybe joined later on in the fandom. i mean, i'm aware that i'm being pedantic here, i'm aware that the situation in question created conflict specifically due to it being within dreblr and in a space where multiple people would've seen both posts and felt ensuing awkwardness bc they know both people either on a personal or acquaintance level, but i mean the same applied ages ago whenever strategist-interpretation and trauma-interpretation c!dream apologists felt like going at it again on the dash.

in this scenario specifically, what made the situation clearly identifiable was the nature of the take that was being discussed. the main identifying detail was the take that the asker was asked about, imo, and i mean ... yeah i mean. most takes that haven't blown up pretty heavily do end up being tied to one or two people? i mean, staged finale is a take that can be tied to three people who argued in favor of it the most before the rest of dreblr got on board only in late 2021. i simply don't think that a take that maybe only one person has argued for (which, i dont remember the statistics of the take in this situation, so i dont remember how many notes it had or how many people in total may have expressed public agreement towards it, honestly) is exempt from discussion when it is posted in a meta or analysis space as an analytical piece, which i do think applies to this take from what i remember about it and how it was tagged.

and back to the discussion of what's acceptable as far as directly responding versus vagueing, i mean, a lot of the discussion i've had on my blog (abt discourse etiquette in General in meta spaces on dreblr moreso than this specific situation, largely bc i did want to avoid commenting on a situation that 1) i really had no business in and 2) i have reason to be biased about. the main reason why i'm talking abt it now is bc hopefully enough time has passed for feelings to be less fraught and bc i want to make certain thoughts of mine clear, in case they weren't clear enough in my original posts abt dreblr and whatever) revolves around both direct responses and vagueing having their reasons as well as pros and cons, and both will likely continue to exist in analysis spaces and generally i don't think it's productive to really comment on what people can or can't do on their own blogs. in this scenario, i don't think "vagueing about one specific person in a way that may be clearly identifiable to parts of their audience" is uniquely unacceptable? a direct response very clearly would make the person in question identifiable -- outside of how it's kind of impossible to make a post vagueing someone in a way where No One has Any Idea who you might be talking about without making the post like, incoherent inherently, if vagueing (not identifiable) is okay and directly responding (identifiable) is okay, then why is vagueing (identifiable) not okay?

now, i understand that any situation where the person in question might be identifiable, some people may take the open disagreement as permission to harass them. and obviously, harassment sucks. part of the whole point of opening up this conversation on my blog was bc i worry, with the way that a single conflict between dsmp opinions has kind of rippled through dreblr recently and the responses to this "situation," that an environment is being created with too much of a forced global consensus that punishes people for stepping out of the status quo in both opinions and behavior, which is obviously bad for the whole community, and was looking to voice some of that and have a conversation on solutions. and i understand that in this situation, a lot of your problem with the blogger has to do with his general attitude in discussing the take and his statements on the person who made it. now, i think you have every right to find his statements offensive and disagreeable and to unfollow and/or block him. that being said, i am not exactly a PR agent, and i want to reiterate that what people do on their own blogs isn't my business and i don't think it should be my business. or uh, anyone's business, for that matter. i don't think that everyone "in dreblr" is beholden to keeping to a certain person's standard for "acceptable" disagreement and "acceptable" sharing of their own opinions on their own blog as long as they're not inciting harassment, which entails, like, actively encouraging harm to happen yk. i mean, you can think that the blogger was being rude or an asshole and prefer to never see him again, that's fine. that's your prerogative. but i mean, i'm not gonna tell the guy how to interact with the fandom on his own blog, haha.

to be clear, im not telling you what you can or can't do on your own blog either. if you wanna make a post about how his posts contain harmful rhetoric, how he's an idiot, or how he's rude bc you disagree with his public posts on this situation or on the dsmp as a whole, i mean, i'm not gonna handwring over it and tell you that you're not allowed to do that. it's none of my business, and i like to think i'm not that hypocritical. and honestly, i think that in a space where we're talking about analysis, commenting on harmful rhetoric happens often and should happen often when it happens -- literally anyone can make an analysis post that has harmful rhetoric, and sure it's fiction and no one has to answer to the analysis police for making a bad analysis post, but i've also been in this space and seen enough truly mind-boggling amounts of parroting takes about torture that make people sound like CIA psyops to go "well saying that someone's analysis post contains harmful rhetoric is really rude" pfft. again, i'm not saying i'm immune to hypocrisy, but i've certainly malded enough times in public about the shit people have said in this fandom to take issue with that. now, getting a little less into the strictly-analysis side of things, i understand that insults like calling someone an idiot may not sit right with everyone, to which i say. block to your heart's content. but c'mon man i've called people idiots before i'm no saint 😭😅

anyway. i hope this clarified some things, anon. take issue with whatever and whoever you like, honestly, whether that's me, the person that i just not-vagued for the last however many words, etc etc -- again, your prerogative. and i agree, it's a shame the situation devolved into stuff like insults in both bloggers' inboxes when it really didn't have to be like that like. at all.