#aftg discussion

[advluv4life]

1 and 8 for the tgr ask game?

-@aftgphoenix

I was really excited to get this! I just had work and homework and chores and errands but I’ve been so excited to talk about it! I also had to scroll through the book because there’s so many scenes for each of these questions. & I don’t trust myself not to pick and then just change my mind in five minutes, so I chose a few/couple of scenes that I love/can’t get out of my mind for both (& there’s more, like the entire book, but I tried to not go on too long).

1 - What is your favorite part?

Rhemann decking Zane. Easily. Handsdown. I’ve said it before, but if I wasn’t already in love with Rhemann prior to this moment…I would’ve fallen so hard.

Also, following that moment, when Jean tells Jeremy all the things he doesn’t want; he doesn’t want Jeremy to be like Zane, doesn't want Coach to be like Tetsuji, doesn’t want to teach Tanner contrition, doesn’t want to harm Cat even if he thinks she should have performed better, doesn’t want to go back to how things were before… “We will do it your way and we will win anyway.” Oh, my heart. I was in tears for multiple reasons but this moment healed a little bit of my heart. Seeing his progress and growth, and hearing him express things he’s come to realize over the course of both books. Oh my god, I was so proud of him. I am so proud of him.

Honorable Mentions:

The part after the banquet where Jean reflects on hearing people talk well about him had me crying tears of happiness.

Jean telling their opponent to have a winning day still makes me scream (and also the Trojans reactions lol)

When Jean tells his therapist that he deserves to get better (*tears*)

Jean’s reaction when Jeremy called Faser his ‘partner’. I think that protective!Jean is right up there with protective!Andrew for me.

The stairwell scene with Jean and Jeremy. I held my breath. Every time Jean grabs hold of his chin, or they demand the other look at them- and they can't help but listen. And it's as if they have no room for people in their peripherals when they are together.

Jeremy and Jean in the hotel room! Jean leaning over him, the blatant flirting, the painful confession of Jeremy's history-

Kevin and Jean’s interactions overall: “I hate you.” “Sometimes you do. I don’t care.” // “How long do you think you can hold [Queen of the U.S. Court] when you’re drinking poison?” “Always, the last person who tried to take it from me died. Checkmate.”

Literally probably any part where Jean mentions/quotes Neil (I’m very much biased here, I was craving Neil before the book’s release and I obsessed over his every mention, I’m not going to apologize, I’m already crossing my fingers that with the trial in the next book Neil and Jean will have wayyyyyyy more interactions). Some moments:

When Zane told him to admit he would have rather had Neil as a partner and Jean couldn’t deny it.

When he recalled Neil brushing off his warning about Ichirou in regard to Andrew “I’m sure he knows." as he comes to terms with his attraction to men not being wrong like Riko made it out to be.

Andrew and Jean’s conversation outside the interview.

“Pop. How easily these monsters die in the end.” quoting.

“It was Rhemann’s voice in his head, Rhemann’s and his friends’ and Neil’s, drowning out his miserable thoughts and excuses with unrelenting force.” -LITERAL crying as I type it now because this is definitely in my top 3 favorite quotes in the book. Just the fact that Neil is included in the list of people who he thinks of/hears as he puts his own wellbeing first moves my soul.

Okay, I’ll stop lol. I could go on and on and on.

8 - Which scene is living rent-free in your head?

This doubles as a favorite scene (of course):

Jean extending his list by adding ‘Fireworks’ but mainly him giving Wymack and Rhemann the title of ‘Fathers’. 

Jean remembering how he was told he was one of Rhemann’s kids and taking comfort in that- him being able to take comfort in that despite his own father being an awful awful man was just a lot to me. I think about it a lot. I think about and compare it to Kevin not calling Wymack ‘Dad’- even in private and then I think about how much Jean has faced and been forced to face and if that says anything about either one of them in regard to their progress and development after leaving the Nest- but I don’t want to get into that because people move at their own pace and they’re both safe now and in environments where they are loved and appreciated and can focus on themselves and things that make them happy. But I think about it a lot (‘a lot a lot a lot’ lol).

And Wymack calling him when he found out about the fire! My whole heart. I really didn’t expect that, maybe Renee or Kevin- possibly Neil (unlikely due to injury) but I didn’t expect Wymack and…I love him.

Another scene, Honorable Mention lol, for different reasons that isn’t as sweet and heartwarming- but where I had to pause and I also continuously mull over it, is when Jean is fighting Zane and Lucas comes in and instead of Zane continuing going after Jean he makes Lucas his target because he looks so much like Grayson.

Like, Zane betrayed Jean. He turned Jean over to Grayson and turned his back on him and yet going after Grayson is still so strongly ingrained in him…And Jean knew he would go after Lucas in that moment… It doesn’t make me like Zane. But it adds to the weight and complexity of the Nest and the Ravens’ mental states because before this we really only saw how quick they were to turn on Jean- and Zane did but Jean still saved his life and there’s still a part of Zane that is protective of Jean (though it’s not anything trustworthy because of his previous betrayal)- Still hearing Zane go off about how being Jean’s partner meant so much to him (even if it was for selfish reasons) and when Jean goes off about how it was a lost cause regardless, both because of Riko’s/the Ravens’ dislike of Jean but also because of the fact that Zane himself stood in the way of Riko/Grayson, put so much more stuff into perspective in regards to their relationship and how strained yet vulnerable it was. Why it was awful but also why it meant so much to both of them. (Okay I’m going to cry, I’m going to stop now). This moment/scene/fight silenced me. I was so mad and so sad and so…smh.

[aftg-rot]

Andrew Minyard and Obsession ~

I have been having some thoughts about Andrew and his unhealthily intense protective nature over Kevin, and then Neil. His compulsive desire to be the keepers of Aaron and Nicky can be characterised - not entirely, but mostly - by the hyperfixation on finding family after being in the foster system for so long, but the possessiveness to the point of obsession with Kevin, and ultimately with Neil, is different. As Neil says when he was assigned to look after Kevin while Andrew was away, it is possible to do so without becoming his shadow. Neil was realistically achieving the same goals as Andrew, without being with Kevin 24/7.

Because Andrew himself does not seem to have any hobbies, creative outlets or interests that are notable, I like the idea that the intensity in which he follows Kevin and Neil around is his way out of his version of the mundane. Their intense dedication towards many things is enough to break his apathy towards everything. It could be a coincidence that for both Kevin and Neil, and in turn Andrew, it is Exy. In another time and space, it could have been two different things for the two boys. Possibly, in reality Kevin and Neil are right and there is no way that Andrew can be that good at something without having some form of fascination with the sport he "does not care about." But the main factor is that both of them WANT something. They have a deep and contagious passion, they have an underlying drive for their feelings and actions, something Andrew does not have. 

Andrew, whether it is a lingering result of the medication, a trauma response, or simply who he is as a person, feels he cannot connect on any level with anyone else. The only connection he has with Aaron and Nicky is their family relationship, and shared history, but aside from that there is no emotional bond or healthy attachment. Andrew has latched onto Kevin and Neil's want and drive because it was a nice reprieve from the indifference, or a subtle lesson in what wanting and needing feels like. 

Falling for Neil and "wanting" him was probably the first developed emotional connection that Andrew had felt in a long time, with only Kevin's obsessive drive for Exy being a suitable substitute. Andrew's insulting of Neil every time he shows his true single mindedness towards Exy is very rarely said with malice, because deep down, Andrew either appreciates Neil's skill to remain driven during times of trauma, or is envious of both Neil and Kevin's ability to have such a force in their lives that makes it worth something.

It is mentioned that Neil offers Andrew his obsession to hold Andrew over until he finds one of his own, but I really think that is what happens. But not just his obsession with Exy, but both Kevin and Neil's ability to persevere and connect with other people, in both positive and negative ways despite what has happened to them. Andrew's codependent way of interacting with specific people is his way of attempting to fit in with the world around him emotionally, and co-opting his closest relationships' interests and obsessions is a method of connecting in an interpersonal way.

[soyouthinkyoulike]

The Golden Raven Podcast Episode...

Ash and I will be recording our first impressions and a general The Golden Raven So You Think You Like podcast episode tomorrow!!

Let us know if there are specific things you would like us to discuss, to rant and rave about, to dissect or give our opinions on here!!

It is going to be a loooooong one!! ;)

[kevinsdsy]

< prev part

the trojans social media au (pt. 36): EVERYONE SAY THANK YOU @kevindavidday FOR LEAVING ME INSPIRED WITH THE JEREJEAN MESSAGES bc i wasnt sure what i wanted to do and if i wanted jean to confront jeremy about using his words and then she connected it with kevjean and i was SOLD also thank you for listening to me when i’m talking about the au and throwing silly ideas your way hehe

also the last tweet about andrew breaking riko’s arm is credited to @tardisscreechsound who came w this idea in my chats hehe!! thank you omg 🫂🩷

[queer-lovebot]

You think Kevin has a severe sensitivity to rejection? Guy who is always so good so everything that he immediately loses it when he’s bad at something, but also takes criticism HORRIBLY.

Imagine kevi being asked to chop veggies and being hovered over by Nicky or Aaron or Andrew. They don’t correct him but they go in to fix afar he messed up AFTER the fact and that pisses him off CRAZY. Poor baby and his inadequacy issues

[adamsrcnan]

It's official. I have finished The Sunshine Court. I have so many things to say and yet have no idea what to possibly say. It was perfect. It was absolutely perfect and heartbreaking and gut wrenching and an insane emotional roller coaster and everything i could possibly have asked for from Nora. Like she really truly delivered and i'm so fucking INSANELY grateful she has shared this story with us after all these years. We do not deserve her.

[kevindavidday]

how fast do you think andrew clocked that jean had feelings for kevin? how pissed off do you think he was when he remembered his own stupid boy crush era for kevin?

[blue-jos10]

do you think kevin ever said the ‘easier to remain heterosexual’ line to jean only to get stared at in silent and pure disgust because how are you saying that the morning after sneaking out in your pajamas to jean’s room giggling and kicking your feet because you’re pulling an all-nighter to watch jeremy knox’s ass game

[aalyre]

too many people forget that kevin grew up in the nest. like. we all see jean as this shattered broken beyond repair boy. but kevin is a coward?

[speakingofalice]

**TGR Spoilers**

OKAY WE HAVE TO TALK ABOUT THE RAVEN/FOX FIGHT AND NEIL

I saw that there has been some talk that Neil “I’m fine” Josten lay on the court floor after he was attacked not because he was that hurt, but to milk it to the crowd/refs and honestly, and respectfully, I disagree wholeheartedly.

Of course we weren’t there in Neil’s head and we will never know BUT what we can ascertain is that Neil saw Andrew go down. He saw that exy stick coming for Andrew’s head, slide down his helmet and connect solidly to his shoulder and then Andrew went down. We can then assume, that in the course of a second, he could see frantic movement, chaos not associated with exy violence but with true and frightening violence and just as he went to get to Andrew, get to Andrew, what is going on, get to Andrew. He gets absolutely blindsided.

Sure, maybe the first blow he would have been able to recover from but let’s not forget Lane (?) then came for his neck. Jeremy described it as her trying to break his neck and then says something along the lines of Neil not being able to fight her off.

Neil, who was held down by Riko, by Lola, by his Father was not just going to say down knowing his whole life (Andrew, Kevin, his foxes) were fighting for their lives in this organized ambush. He would never have laid down when he could do something. Because that is who Neil Josten is. He is a do-er. He is a problem-solver. He is a fixer (whether those he’s fixing likes it or not). He is loyal. he is traumatized. He is fiercely protective. He is paranoid. He is a fighter. He is a survivor.

There is no way Neil would play up his injury to the crowd because in that moment, who the fck cares about the crowd? Who cares about the court of public opinion? His people were being HURT.

Neil, who would do anything for Andrew wouldn’t stay down.

Neil, who would never knowingly and willingly allow himself to be checked out by Abby wouldn’t stay down.

Neil, whose whole life depends on his ability to play exy, wouldn’t stay down.

Neil, who could hear Kevin struggling, and Matt and Aaron fighting wouldn’t stay down.

Neil, who could sense Andrew’s pure rage, fright, pain, fighting his way to him wouldn’t stay down and knowingly put Andrew through such turmoil when he could do something to fix it (remember, they act like they’re in each other orbit? They know each other. Even with some secrets)

Sure, Neil “I’m fine” Josten has been through worse… but has he? Or did he think after brokering this deal, getting his father killed, was there when Riko died, who did his best to destroy the Ravens, help Jean, help Kevin, maybe he thought that this was the time to play exy. Forget the world and destroy this horrible team on the court.

Neil went down and didn’t get back up until he was helped off. That boy was hurt. Even days later, he struggled to get out of the car in front of strangers and cameras. He couldn’t stop the pain from his face. He may be an open book to Andrew but he is tough, and a btch and rude to outsiders. He is not weak and here, he showed weakness.

Just my two cents <3

[attineilde]

aaron minyard after finding out he is the only straight one in andrew's group:

[feelingthedisaster]

its embarrasing how obssesed im with kevin day. what am i supposed to tell people i do in my free time? think about that guy?

[captainknox]

So since some of y'all are posting some major mischaracterization of Kevin and Jeans relationship in TGC I thought I would come on here and set the record straight(haha) on what I have been seeing from my perspective on what was revealed in this series and some thoughts i just wanna yap about and hear y'alls thoughts on:

!!!SPOILERS SO BEWARE!!!

!

Brothers, friends, teammates, or partners: (+ what's revealed about their relationship from TGR and why I disagree with a few takes I have seen on here, that try to define their relationship as anything, when its complicated and undefinable to Jean himself.)

Since folx are taking things literally, I think it's important to note and remember that most things Jean says about him and Kevin's relationship is a lie. A lie that they had to keep up to separate themselves in the nest and from Rikos rage.

That being said, when he says that Kevin is not his friend, it leads me to interpret that is a knee-jerk reaction that was trained into him to deny because of the Nest. (I do not think he is a friend, because at this point I dont even think Jean knows what one is, or would say he has any).

We also are shown that when Jean feels emotional and is about to share what he shouldn’t he self harms to stop himself and control what he says. Which he does here as well when pressed further about Kevin being his friend or partner and his feelings toward him:

he repeats what he most likely was forced to say over and over as Riko and the master beat him for Kevins whereabouts.

I also do think he means it when he says he wanted Kevin to die, both of them saw no escape from the nest and from the abuse, the only way out they ever saw was death. They both clearly made a pact, my personal theory based on what Jean has said is that If he dies, it has to be by Kevin and no one else in (TSC):

Their relationship is too complicated for other characters in the series to understand, and though it hurts Jean when Kevin calls him, his brother, I think it truly is how Kevin categorizes their relationship. I also think that Kevin's view of Aaron and Andrews relationship also influences how he labels their relationship(I can dive into that at a later time).

Though Jean says he hates Kevin multiple times throughout the series, he never defends himself when Kevin calls him out on that lie. So also saying that he feels just hatred or animosity toward Kevin, feels incorrect as well.

So I think the ball is in Jean's court for how he wants to define their relationship. Something, to my knowledge he has not done yet. He either deflects or says 'no' to whatever label people use.

Kevin victim blames/ denies Jeans abuse:

Jean(our beloved unreliable narrator) is still living in the Nest mentally at this point in the series, and is still falling back on Raven conditioning which impacts how he sees Kevin and how their relationship plays out between them. A relationship where they had to hide their abuse from everyone but each other as stated in TSC:

Kevin, refuses to deny what happened to Jean to those he cares about, or deny his importance to him, but respects what Jean wants to share with others, which is the only reason he ever lies or hides information about Jean.

Jean does as well, in TSC when Thea demands he explains, he does not tell Kevin's story, all he says is "believe him." In this scene he is also trying to distract Thea from asking about the S/A, so do not take it out of its context, it is just important to note how he will always admit that Kevin was abused, but will not break his trust by sharing his story in the same way that Kevin does for him.)

When Kevin calls the S/A "history," its part because he is unaware of the full truth as is stated by Jean in TSC:

And more importantly because he does not know what Jean has shared with Jeremy and will not break his trust.

Now this scene being argued about the most in TGR has some of the most worst misinterpretations that I have seen, and I think its because people don't remember that Kevin has had more time to be seperate from the nest and adjust to the "normal world", so people don't notice the way he also still has the same fucked up views as Jean regarding the world. He also, up until a few months prior in the series, was still under/fighting the master/riko ownership of him.

When he does talk about the S/A, he is explaining how they justified their (the ravens/ riko) actions because they had no other choice. It was their reality and the rules with which they had come to accept about the world, not that he personally is justifying it.

What he says here is important:

Followed by this:

We also learn later, that Kevin did try and defend Jean. And the conversation highlighted above, implies he tried to bring up reporting it to Jean, but he would not.

At this point, Kevin does not know what Jeremy knows in this moment, because Jean will not even discuss it fully with Kevin when he brings it up, so he is unaware what Jeremy knows of the S/A. He also still refuses to break Jean's trust so he censors himself (acknowledged by Jeremy as well in this conversations):

-Kevin saw how the Ravens reacted in the aftermath. He knew none of them would even defend him (even Thea would write away their abuse while it was happening, as is seen when she confronts Jean in TSC).

-When he is stating that the age of consent is 16, what he is telling Jeremy, is that even if he wanted to go and report it, the only person who could have was Jean. Not that he thinks Jean was old enough to consent.

Also important is what Jean says in a previous chapter + when he talks to Andrew, you can see how both Kevin and Jean literally almost echo each others words/ perspective on things: (sorry about the bad highlighting)

Here he is talking about himself not Jean's justice (which i saw floating around as if that was how Kevin felt about Jean reporting things...) :

Does that mean Kevin would stand by Jean if he ever wanted to testify? We won't know yet, but based on my interpretation and the only other proof we have seen of him defending victims (testifying on behalf of Andrew and Aaron during the court case, a scene which it is implied by jeremy heavily affected him), I am going to say yes.

Important to note: Kevin knew and has stated that if he spoke out against the Ravens they would hurt Jean. He was also restrained by that fear. Which is why the time he finally lets himself loose, is only after Jean is safely with him and the foxes and he knows that Riko can't reach him. Even Jeremy, notes a difference since Jean was finally out of the nest:

Things I feel it's important to mention and consider when looking at their relationship:

-They both are invested in each other getting better.Kevin willingly agreed to share all his trauma with Betsy so that she can help Jean. Kevin, willingly tells her everything horrific he endured in the small chance that it would make Jean feel safe enough to talk to her and get better. But I don't think we should ignore Jean's confrontation with Kevin about his drinking.

-Kevin also respects every time Jean tells him to leave or stop. We see this in the TSC and again in TGR:

-The minute Jean is actually uncomfortable we see Kevin back off. Yes he is bossy, rude, and invited himself into Jeans space, but that is also a reversal/familiarity of their time spent together. The minute Jean says no, Kevin respects it. (I have a lot to say about the coffee grabbing, and my the amount of times Kevin grabs his hands whenever he senses Jean's distress, throughout the series, but that will be a later date)

-The few times they ever get physically violent it is Jean who initiates it first. I would argue that Jean slips into his past role as well, throughout their interactions just as much as Kevin does.

-Kevin defending Jean during the interview, and keeping Jeremy's promise.

Last thoughts:

Jean himself, never denies the abuse that Kevin faced, in fact the only few times he is willing to mentally acknowledge the abuse, its when he is referencing the psychological and physical abuse and games Riko played on him and Kevin. So... If Jean himself does not deny that Kevin was abused as well, why do y'all remove Kevin's actions from that context??

Now I'm not condoning either of their thoughts or behaviors, its fucked up, and it's meant to be frustrating that they both could say this about themselves and each other. But Nora's books are meant to be re-read, because they often have so many small easter eggs and deeper meanings that aren't revealed until later.

Please proceed with some reading comprehension and understanding that these characters are all messy and traumatized and do things that you won't morally agree with, that just makes them a well written character.

and finally the exchange that made me almost throw my kindle, all because Kevin asked:

[catlaila]

as someone who is heavily fixated on college basketball and f1 i can assure you that people would absolutely be making edits of the foxes. i know for a fact that people would be OBSESSED with how messy neil is. the tiktoks on the infamous neil-riko beef starting from kathy’s show. the neil-kevin edits. did you know ive never been skiing interview would’ve had him trending for a full WEEK. riko fans would be scaryyyy and i know allison would be itching to give a bitchy reply if renee hadn’t taken her phone away so she wouldn’t make any comments to piss off raven fans anymore than they would’ve.

i don’t think andrew would be that popular at first but i think there’s a time where someone manages to dig up part of the twin’s past and it goes a bit viral so wymack tries to put him in front of a camera (horrible decision. they will never be doing that again until andrew’s forced to in his professional career). unfortunately for wymack this interview goes insanely viral bc andrew is physically incapable of not being cunty and now there are andrew edits. nicky sends all of them to neil, because nicky is terrified to actually show andrew, and neil is like hmm. well. hmm. and then watches them for hours

[wickedwitchofthewesninski]

Drunk Kevin: That's a nice argument, why don't you back it up with a source

Even drunker Aaron, standing on top of the kitchen table: my source is that I mADE IT THE FUCK UP

[weralika]

has Andrew sucked Jeremy's dick?