#actor discourse

[theorangepdf]

2020-2021 was rough time to be alive yes it’s true but it was a great time to be a tumblrina

[nevermeyers]

There's absolutely no way people are now saying that all the gege-hate train is just an internal joke of the fandom. There's no way you're this out of touch with what has been happening.

I've been in the fandom since 2020 and it doesn't take a lot of smarts to see there's been a change in tone in the way some people say that in the last year. Since this new arc of history began, destructive criticism, massive hate and threats have overflowed into hundreds of profiles. It's no longer "oh, I hate Gege akutami" now and for a while now it's "I hate Gege akutami - his manga is horrible I'm gonna drop it (they never do) - he doesn't deserve popularity - he doesn't know how to write - he pretends to have an illness."

And yet, it's not normal to make jokes about wanting to kill someone, hon. Go check yourself if you find that funny, you're no better than let's-joke-about-sensitive-issues reddit incels

[finelythreadedsky]

JSTOR Wrapped: top ten JSTOR articles of 2023

Coo, Lyndsay. “A Tale of Two Sisters: Studies in Sophocles’ Tereus.” Transactions of the American Philological Association 143, no. 2 (2013): 349–84.

Finglass, P. J. “A New Fragment of Sophocles’ ‘Tereus.’” Zeitschrift Für Papyrologie Und Epigraphik 200 (2016): 61–85.

Foxhall, Lin. “Pandora Unbound: A Feminist Critique of Foucault’s History of Sexuality.” In Sex and Difference in Ancient Greece and Rome, edited by Mark Golden and Peter Toohey, 167–82. Edinburgh University Press, 2003.

Garrison, Elise P. “Eurydice’s Final Exit to Suicide in the ‘Antigone.’” The Classical World 82, no. 6 (1989): 431–35.

Grethlein, Jonas. “Eine Anthropologie Des Essens: Der Essensstreit in Der ‘Ilias’ Und Die Erntemetapher in Il. 19, 221-224.” Hermes 133, no. 3 (2005): 257–79.

McClure, Laura. “Tokens of Identity: Gender and Recognition in Greek Tragedy.” Illinois Classical Studies 40, no. 2 (2015): 219–36.

Purves, Alex C.  “Wind and Time in Homeric Epic.” Transactions of the American Philological Association 140, no. 2 (2010): 323–50.

Richlin, Amy. “Gender and Rhetoric: Producing Manhood in the Schools.” In Sex and Difference in Ancient Greece and Rome, edited by Mark Golden and Peter Toohey, 202–20. Edinburgh University Press, 2003.

Rood, Naomi. “Four Silences in Sophocles’ ‘Trachiniae.’” Arethusa 43, no. 3 (2010): 345–64.

Zeitlin, Froma I. “The Dynamics of Misogyny: Myth and Mythmaking in the Oresteia.” Arethusa 11, no. 1/2 (1978): 149–84.

[thevalleyisjolly]

There’s a weird recurring take in D20 fan circles that Zac doesn’t play “complex” characters and that people are just waiting for the day when he “finally” plays an asshole, which kind of baffles me.  Quite apart from the idea that only morally grey characters are complex or compelling, are you sure we’re watching the same show?

In Fantasy High, we have Gorgug, an adopted biracial teenager whose journey includes realizing his self-worth, coming to terms with his rage (literally), seeking out and navigating new relationships with others (his birth parents, the Bad Kids, Zelda), and discovering what he’s capable of. 

From The Unsleeping City we have Ricky, a second-generation Japanese-American, who has a very personal struggle across two seasons between doing the dutiful/sacrificial thing for other people’s benefit and expressing his own needs, wants, thoughts, and feelings; it’s a very particular exploration of immigrant generations and the relationship between the sacrificial model of your ancestors and the culture you grew up surrounded by which emphasizes the self.

There’s A Crown of Candy and Lapin, whose snark and one-liners are honestly less interesting than the way he engaged with and sought to understand religion and faith; the different yet similar ways in which both the Sugar Plum Fairy and the Church exerted control over their followers, and the search for spiritual meaning beyond these figures/institutions.

Then there’s Cumulous, whose every character aspect navigates a space of tension - the ultimate war guy who made himself hardened (literally) and pragmatic to get the job done but who also remains soft and caring and empathetic at the same time; wielding the power of death without glorifying or giving into it; the cousin who both is a member of the family and yet who remains at somewhat of a distance from the centre; a literal warrior-philosopher who is single-minded in battle and quietly thoughtful about the mysteries of life and death outside of it.

As for actual assholes, we have Norman Takamori in A Starstruck Odyssey, a bitter man who is the living embodiment of both the Superior Orders excuse as well as scapegoating.  On a side note, the amount of absolute vitriol and double standards which people threw at Norman during ASO for being an unapologetic asshole -and he had less than two full episodes of screen time- kind of underscores the calls for Zac to play a “real” asshole.  Zac can and will play whatever type of character he wants, but is fandom really ready for him to play an asshole if that asshole doesn’t have a secret heart of gold?

From the same season, we have Valdrinor/Skip, who starts as the “prince running from his destiny” archetype with a dash of brain slug possession, has a humorous yet oddly profound exploration of what humanity is and what it means to be human, and springboards from there into “wait, who am I really and actually, why are we doing things (brain slug possession) this way when there are other ways to engage with the universe.” 

Most recently in Neverafter, we have Pib, who apart from the fascinating meta element of being a literal character archetype, constantly straddles the line between self-absorbed self-interest and putting himself on the line to help others; his repeated demonstration of both at various points throughout the season is a subtle yet intriguing manifestation of free will and choice-making in a story all about lacking free will and agency.

So, I mean, lack of complexity where?  Does a character need to be an asshole in order to be deep or compelling?  And because I’ve heard this specific rebuttal quite a few times now, does a character need to vocalize their innermost thoughts loudly and frequently in order to prove their complexity?  If a character is “less vocal” compared to other characters, does that mean they lack interiority? 

Also, other people have brought this up before, but I am once again asking that people remember the difference between fictional characters and real life people.  Zac playing one (1) himbo on the show does not make him a himbo in real life, nor does it make him incapable of creating or playing complex characters (especially as said himbo is himself an extremely complex character), nor does it make him a lesser player than other cast members.  You don’t have to find all or any of his characters interesting or complex, but can we stop conflating character with player?

[thenotoriousscuttlecliff]

Seeing people say that we never see the Doctor and Ruby talking for more than 30 seconds makes me think 73 Yards and Dot and Bubble has just clouded their memories because the first four episodes of this era are almost nothing but the Doctor and Ruby talking and bonding.

Yeah, the Doctor-lite episodes meant we haven't had as much lately, but so many are going on as there's been none at all, as if every episode before 73 Yards was like Rogue where they were mostly separated in their own plotlines.

[fangswbenefits]

"Everyone's been talking about who they would ship Astarion with..."

Neil: Ship...?

Okay, but I actually love how he addressed this, because it makes total sense. Astarion is for everyone 🩷

[armoralor]

Emily Swallow’s face when d*nbo shippers in the crowd started yelling at Katee Sackhoff for saying Bo-Katan Kryze and Din Djarin have "no romantic undertones:"

Please don’t harass actors. Katee has been humoring inappropriate questions about a fictional romance for MONTHS. She has made jokes and played along to diffused awkward fan situations; ship what you want online but please don't bother actors with it (image from a different angle of this panel).

[daeneryseastar]

say everyone should defend the black and non-binary cast members of house of the dragon from disgusting vitriol aimed at them for their skin color/gender orientation and no one bats an eye. say a white man’s pronunciation of a made up word sucks and society. society goes wild.

[scarefox]

The way some people straight up deny soft criticism of the BL industry (stuff that isn't even a secret if you don't close your eyes and ears!!!) Criticism by literally LGBTq people working in said BL industry in Thailand..... basically one of the only ones who's voice are most valid here in this discourse. That's not hypocrism of people working in the industry to open their mouth! That's called self-awareness and using this genre to convey a message and trying to fix issues. This is about Step by Step and Lovely Writer atm. But those are not the only dramas who brought up some critic but somehow people get salty now about that little poke from SbS? Did you sleep the past 3 years?? And it's not a coincident that it's always the same topics certain BL dramas brought up!

I feel like some people here don't get that you can criticize your own work place, your own industry, your own country WITHOUT hating, shaming or demonizing it completely! Yall need stop this black & white thinking and the constant urge to feel personally attacked by something like this...

Especially the message of LW (the same people who make SbS now) was that there is nothing wrong about loving BL stories and they do like producing them. BUT that there are some things in the industry that are bad and harmful NOT ALL OF IT, SOME THINGS! Like the treatment of actors and certain topics by companies and producers. And the main theme of LW: the toxic overstepping and overcontrolling shipping culture that can (and did) destroy real life relationships / friendships under the weight of the pretend relationship (pretend as in they are not dating for real (everyone knows that! or should know that! this is also not even a secret if you watch interviews outside of the fun and couple game shows) at least in most of the cases.... in some rare ones yes, in some very rare cases some actors actually date but they are too afraid to come out due to homophobia and the way the industry & fandom treats those cases (source Dr. Thomas Baudinette who studies the industry as a form of queer asian media and interviewed companies and actors since years... somewhere in this he talks about actor relationships, I can't find the time stamp atm))

ALSO the point about exploiting the LGBTq community is NOT about the fans or LGBTq audience who love these dramas. But about businesses and literal Thailand itself. For using those stories and actors / couples for advertising, for marketing, for tourism even. BUT at the same time some don't care for real life LGBTq issues and rights or the fact that Thailand is still not agreeing on equal marriage (which is not just about them not being able to marry but they get denied a lot of things married couples get. alone the fact that they can't see their partner in the case of an emergency in the hospital because 'they are not family'). In the said SbS scene they were literally discussing which pretend couple has the most fans and how they could use their fandom and fan clubs to gain profit. Don't you guys get how fucking frustrating this is for the LGBTq people and allies who work in the BL industry, to get paraded in front of the camera for money and image but still don't get treated equally??? THAT is what they mean with exploiting.... And it's a lot of producers, writers and some actors who voice those points, not just these few self-aware BL dramas. But doing it through the medium they adress is the best way to reach the right people, to make the right people aware and ask for their support. Since they can't say such things directly (even though they should) unless they want to lose their job, they still like to a degree.

And I am sorry but the opinion of actual thai people who are inside that industry is more valid than some random fan who just doesn't want to understand those things in order to enjoy their shows without feeling bad.... What if I tell you that you can do both and that this is not about shaming you or making you feel guilty (unless you participate in toxic overstepping behavior or are actually LGBTq-phobic, then yes feel guilty)! Acknowledging issues, supporting to fix those issues and still have fun with these dramas and actors.... Those things can and do coexist and nobody said otherwise!!

[i-said-blimey]

I get that people love the rat grinders

and want to see them redeemed because they were being misled by their teachers

And maybe I would have been on that side if it hadn't been for KLCK. If it wasn't the slashing her own AP member's throat, it would the complaining about Riz having a hard life as if that somehow gave him advantage. If it wasn't the endangering students at the party, it would be the trying to bring about the apocalypse. I have as much sympathy for her as I have for Penelope, Biz and Dayne in freshman year.

In conclusion:

I don't really care much about the rest of TRG. Except maybe hating Ivy for being a fantasy racist. I even thought Oisin and Adaine would be cute together before it turned out there was nothing there at all. Ruben is insufferable but what teen boy isn't. I just don't think that him being a teenager makes him a wooby whose actions need to be ignored or justified.

I'm not saying it's bad to care about TRG or whatever. i just don't get why people are acting like TBK are awful for killing TRG when TRG have been making their lives miserable. And are also actively trying to bring about the apocalypse. Or worse that BLeeM and IH are horrible for not shifting the story from mystery solving to focusing on redeeming TRG

[djungleskogs]

i think analysing oliver’s facial expressions and social media to figure out whether or not he hates one of his coworkers is weird behaviour sorry ! i also think the insistence that the entire 911 cast hates lou and his cameos based on nothing but vibes is weird behaviour too !! it very much feels like a good chunk of the anti-bucktommy section of twitter has a weird parasocial relationship with oliver stark specifically.

also tbh who cares if oliver and lou hate each other they don’t write the show. it would have zero impact on whether bucktommy survives the next two episodes or not. like thank god i use tumblr because every time i open twitter its just people spreading absolute negativity and insisting that everything oliver does is a sign that he hates lou so much and that’s why bucktommy is bones like no wonder he deleted that app. if i were him i would be cursing them out all day every day

[ingravinoveritas]

How did u feel with the age gap question was it pr or do u really think he meant it and this was the truth

This is referring to the question asked on The Assembly last night. I'll post the clip here, for those who haven't seen it yet:

A lot of what I felt while watching this was touched on in this incredibly thoughtful post from @body-face-words, so I encourage folks to give that a read. But I think for me, when it comes to Michael's answer, it's not a matter of whether he lied or told the truth. It's that his response was sweet, but it was also a version of the truth that sounded convincing because it needed to, because this was not a time or place where he could say what he actually felt.

I'm really not sure what people expected him to say, in all honesty, as he was never going to say anything that would make him or Anna look bad, and especially not anything that could potentially negatively impact the kids, so he instead gave a very perfect PR answer. This again does not come as a surprise because we know Michael has scripted his answers about AL/their relationship in the past, but I noticed how careful he was in his response, which seems to contrast with how off-the-cuff he normally is when discussing every other subject. Part of what so many of us love about Michael is how unfiltered he is and always has been, with the exception of how much he filters and edits himself when talking about Anna.

It also seemed like, at least from my perspective, that Michael answered the question without answering the question. What the girl asked wasn't so much about the age gap, but about AL being five years older than Michael's daughter Lily, and it would've been a perfect opportunity for him to mention her, or how the relationship with AL affected his and Lily's relationship. He could've talked about the falling out he had with her (and Kate) in 2019 once AL's existence/pregnancy came to light, and what has happened in the years since, or how Lily now gets along with Anna/her half-sisters. But instead Michael deflected from all of that and talked about everything while saying nothing at the same time.

It was also the things Michael didn't say that stood out as much as the things he did. In the entire answer to the question, Michael never once used the word "love." Prior to the show airing, I saw a lot of people online confident that he would say that he loves Anna, but he never did. He never praised her, never talked about the things he loves about her, or how glad he is to be with her. He never once mentioned her by name. The pivot and focus was on the kids, and there was a clear distinction made between how happy he is to have the family he does, rather than to be in the relationship that he is in. Michael's use of the phrase "very happy" was also identical to the wording of a comment AL wrote on Instagram the other day, which added to the whole "reinforcing a public narrative" feeling of his response.

I think what struck me most of all, though, was how somber and heavyhearted Michael sounded while saying how happy he is. It reminded me of the song "I Am a Rock" by Simon & Garfunkel, where the upbeat and cheerful music contrasts starkly with the fraught, angry lyrics. There was no sparkle in Michael's eyes when he said it, no enthusiasm for what he was saying (which is particularly jarring when we know Michael has the capacity for incredible enthusiasm), and his face never lit up while he was talking.

There was one specific moment (which is also highlighted in the body language post) where he seemed to visibly wince and the micro-expressions were in overdrive, and it immediately made me think of a moment from Good Omens:

Time and again, I have seen fans talk about Michael's micro-expressions as an actor and how he uses them to such devastating effect (especially in the role of Aziraphale). And while these two moments are not completely identical, the idea of ignoring how Michael uses those same micro-expressions in real life makes no sense to me at all. In this instance, what we're seeing could be either because he has put so much of himself into Aziraphale that we can now recognize those "Michael" moments...or it could be because in both clips he is performing, albeit for different reasons.

The difference between Michael when he is doing this vs. when he is being genuinely himself is made even more apparent by the question immediately following this one. Unprompted, he brings up David, and the change in his expression and demeanor is swift and dramatic:

Having the mention of David happen so soon after the AL question seemed to highlight so many things. I can't help but feel that David is a security blanket for Michael, something he hides behind when he is feeling anxious or sad or overwhelmed. I wondered if perhaps he was even already thinking of David while answering the AL question, which would explain why he named him so readily--as if his mind needed to drift to someplace else just to finish answering that question.

To me, this made it abundantly clear that David is Michael's safe place. Here was where we saw Michael's eyes sparkling. Here was where we saw him light up from the inside. And it was David he kept returning to and bringing up during the rest of the show in response to other questions. So if that doesn't speak volumes about where Michael's heart seems to be, I'm not sure what does.

So yes, those are my thoughts on Michael answering the age gap question on The Assembly. As always, this is just my interpretation, but I am glad to hear from my followers with your take as well. Thanks for writing in! x

[apollos-boyfriend]

not to get into hashtag discourse but i can’t get over some of these character brackets banning mcrp characters for “crossing the line into rpf” yet nearly always have some sort of dnd character in their polls. do you not see your hypocrisy. do you not see how those are the exact same thing told through different mediums.

[evanpeterswifeyyy]

Ted Talk number 2 already. This one is about Evan and Natalie discourse again.

I’ve been seeing a LOT of smack about Evan at NYC fashion week related to Natalie because she’s a model and works for Karlie Kloss and I’d like to put in some RATIONAL thought about that topic.

Ok, let’s indulge the thought that maybe Natalie is suggesting and trying to convince Evan to change his style and go to fashion shows.

Evan is a GROWN MAN. He can make his own decisions. If Natalie is asking him to do something, he can say no. As far as I can see, he is not obligated to do anything she says, nor stay in the relationship.

Another thing, he cannot just show up. He is paid to be there by the brand. Otherwise he wouldn’t have any reason to attend unless his girlfriend was working there, but he was at the Loewe’s men’s show, obviously Natalie is not the one working at the show—he is. And he accepted to be there. Loewe nor Natalie cannot force him to accept the job or show up. He did that because obviously he wanted to. Crazy concept, I know.

He is working. May Natalie have had some influence or connection? Maybe. But to discredit Evan’s popularity and give her all the credit for him booking a job with Loewe is disrespectful to his integrity, especially as people who claim to be his fans.

He has every right and autonomy to have just been picked out by Loewe with no influence of Natalie whatsoever. And even if she is changing his style, genuinely she’s doing a good job. He looks fresh. It’s really refreshing to see him done up nicely after how shitty he looked in his previous relationships (Emma Snoberts).

I’ve also seen complaints about the outfit he’s wearing in the photoshoot, but he’s a model for the show and was obviously done-up by an artist/ designer. Natalie did not pick the outfit he’s wearing. So if you don’t like it, blame his stylist or Evan himself, because Natalie doesn’t change his clothes for him like he’s a toddler.

Yes, I loved his lazy hobo style just like anyone else. But to see him looking clean in his daily getup is so nice.

Why does everything Evan does now have to be related to Natalie? Can he not just change and mature as a person, and also make his own decisions? I can assure you, she’s not holding him at gunpoint to do something. Just because you don’t like his decisions and the changes he’s making doesn’t mean Natalie is abusive like Emma. If anything, I think it’s the healthiest relationship he’s been in for a while now and it’s obvious. Which is clearly why so many of you are jealous and are nitpicking anything to tear her down.

I’d also want to add some discussion on Natalie and her public politics.

There has been a photo resurfacing of her aparently being a Trump supporter, but the “badges” aren’t really clear enough. If anything they look like generic “I voted” stickers. Which usually have no affiliation to politcal party as far as I know.

Adding the photo and evidence here that people are using to claim she’s a “Trump supporter”:

Ladies and gents, the “Trump” badge:

I actually even looked online for an oval shaped Trump sticker like this and there was nothing. This is literally the sticker she’s wearing that people are using to claim she voted for Trump.

But, again, let’s indulge the thought that maybe she was a Trump supporter. She has every right to flip her political stance.

She is clearly extremely for abortion rights and female autonomy, which was taken away. And as we know, Trump isn’t the best candidate to regain those rights. At least not when he’s on the far right spectrum. That’s my opinion and observation, and it’s clearly Natalie’s too.

You are not obligated to stick to one political party or candidate forever. So maybe in 2016 she voted for Trump, boo fucking hoo. She’s not a hypocrite for changing her mind or her stance like any normal fucking human being.

There is literally nothing perfect Natalie can do for anyone, just like any normal human. And even if she was somehow this conventionally perfect figure head, you guys would some how still find ways to discredit her.

If you want Evan to be in a good relationship with someone (which obviously you believe is you, but with the way you treat him and Natalie he would never.) shitting on every single girlfriend he has because you don’t like the public appearance of their relationship and how it doesn’t suit your standards (or just because it’s not you, which at this rate it will never be) is not going to get anyone anywhere.

Your harassment of Natalie is harassment towards Evan as well, because he chose her. That is his decision. If you shit on Natalie and she finds it, and in any shape or form it affects her—mentally, emotionally, physically—it is going to hurt Evan too because obviously, he cares about her and is a caring person. Whether you like that fact or not, it is at the end of the day—a fact. They are dating, so whatever the other person is feeling will reflect onto the other, and I’m sure Evan wouldn’t want to see Natalie hurt in any sort of way. We know she sees at least some of the hate, and we have no idea how she really reacts to it. But I’m sure it’s not positively or happily.

He’s not a bird locked in a cage to be gawked at. He’s a human being who is doing something at this very moment, living, breathing, talking, having thoughts and feelings. And so is Natalie. And I’m sure both of them have seen your neurotic behavior.

News flash, Evan most likely does not like you if you act that way, and he most definitely doesn’t want you.

So sit down and grow the fuck up. Most of you are grown adults saying this as well. Act like one.

Thanks for listening to another rant again, I’m genuinely so tired of this. No, I am not defending Natalie. But so far, you guys have no real evidence she has done or is doing anything you claim, and it’s not even that bad regardless. Until Natalie does something actually wrong, I will call out this stupid shitty behavior. The real person I’m defending at the end of the day is Evan, because all of it circles back to him, and it is an extremely disrespectful painting of his character that I’m sure no one is hoping for. I’m sure at this rate most of the actual Natalie haters will have stopped reading long before and stormed away fuming out their ears, but regardless, if I can share this info so other people can have an argument back against their bullshit then it’s worth it.

[tevanbuckley]

Although I don't think oliver has those strong negative feelings (if any at all) about how the story went the fans want him to, I don't think it matters?

I mean it does and doesn't at the same time. Oliver is an actor and his job is to act, whether he likes how the character's story is going or not. Many great actors have done award winning roles while not having the best feelings for the character itself, directors or co-stars, hence the award winning, bc they were able to bring their character to life regardless of the environment.

Now I'm not saying Oliver's feedback isn't important, it is, Tim certainly thinks it is. But there's a limit on how much his opinion can affect the writing. It's heard and taken into consideration but at the end of the day, it's Tim's call what's good for the story or not, because that's his job.

I think it all boils down to the fandom parasocial relationship with actors, Oliver isn't an extention of buck, his opinions aren't buck's, his feelings aren't either. your relationship with him ends when the episode ends, and that's something many fail to understand.

on the one hand i think it's normal (if a little parasocial) that if you're a fan of an actor you'd want them to be doing work they enjoy/are proud of. what's weird imo is speculating an actor hates a storyline based solely on extreme over-analysis of their social media presence. the "poor oliver, he must hate this," narrative is nothing more than certain fans projecting their own disappoint about buck's storyline onto the man that plays him.

i think you've hit the nail on the head re: oliver being treated as an extension of buck, and after the daddy issues bs it's clear that some in the fandom have projected so hard onto him they can no longer separate themselves from his character, so maybe it shouldn't be surprising they're doing the same with oliver.

there's probably also an element of needing to reconcile their hatred for bucktommy (+ bucktommy shippers) with their love/admiration/fandom of oliver. he has to secretly agree with them otherwise he's just another fetishist/racist/hag/pervert/whatever-new-attack-they've-come-up-with.

[buddiesmutslut]

Bro, as a Buddie fan, why are we asking other actors about buddie? 🤣 Like, Kenneth has no fucking clue what’s going on with a non-canon ship.

I can kind see JLH because she’s made a few statements about that pairing, but she’s not a writer either, she’s an actress that plays a character that’s not involved in that ship??

Even Lou got questions about buddie & he’s literally DATING one of the characters 🤣

Make it make sense