#Zuko would be her endgame

[zutarawasrobbed]

It was basically a full hour of him saying “I’m not like other girls.”

Have you seen Sarcastic Chorus' zutara video yet?

I did. I thought it was a very shallow analysis, tbh. He boiled it down to shippers seeing what they wanted because the aesthetics were intriguing. I could tell he's never actually talked to any Zutara shippers, or read much of the meta content. He didn't need a whole hour for that.

[high-on-cactus-juice]

Somewhat unpopular shipping opinion but I truly believe jinko should have been endgame. Like these two were way too cute together for Jin to end up being a one episode character!!

Also I do really love Mai but I just don’t believe the MaixZuko pairing is the best one out there, considering that they started dating as a result of being two depressed teens. I’m a sucker for grumpy/sunshine dynamics.

[peony-pearl]

after work I might start writing my ideas for an alternate Book 3. It won't be a fanfic oh I don't have the energy for that but I have so many ideas rattling in my brain of how I think some endgame things could have been presented differently

[vaselinegurl]

I think…we all knew kataang was the endgame. I mean it was quite obvious with the way the directors were pushing it, but imho, I never shipped them. To be honest, I always saw aang’s and katara’s relationship as more sibling then..actually romantic. Which is weird, considering aang liked her since the beginning. I know. But the thing is, katara DID treat aang like a little brother/really good friend. She treated him like a child for half the show. All those pecks on his cheek, in my opinion, gave major “he’s my sibling” or “I really love him, what a good friend!” vibes. I really thought aang was going to get over his crush. I thought it was the little goofy feeling you get after being frozen in ice for a hundred years and you finally see a girl. I didn’t think it would last so damn long. ;-; I genuinely hoped that through the entire show, the writers would change their mind. Because even with zuko out of the picture, I just CANNOT see aang and katara together. They never had romantic chemistry, in fact, the only time I saw a little bit of romantic chemistry was in s3 when they were doing their little tango together. But everything else? Aang was just pining over katara who never really reciprocated his feelings back. Katara was always motherly in a way to him and aang felt like a little kid with a crush. This was on purpose obviously, even the director himself said that katara’s and aang’s relationship was like “a kid who had a crush on his babysitter” so there.

So yea, thanks for reading my yap sesh. :)

[rifari2037]

I found this thread on Twitter and it's so refreshing to know that Zutara fandom actually has strong allies.

Zuko - (my captain) Dante Basco

Katara - Mae Whitman

Sokka - Jack de Sena

Toph - Michaela Jill Murphy

Azula - Grey DeLisle

Uncle Iroh - Greg Baldwin

(even) Cabbage Man - James Sie

It's funny because this fact made me suddenly create a headcanon :

Of course Zuko and Katara shipping themselves, they fell in love with each other.

Then almost all the members of the Gaang except Aang (we don't know for sure about Suki) also ship Zutara because they know Zuko and Katara are secretly making out, while Aang denies it because well, you know why…

Sokka as Katara's brother approve their relationship!

Then Uncle Iroh, he must've ship Zutara since stubborn Zuko asked Katara to help him defeat Azula.

Uncle Iroh as father figure for Zuko definitely approve their relationship!

Azula shipped Zutara? She must've known that Katara meant a lot to Zuko, otherwise why would she direct the lightning at her? She know that either Katara would lose or Zuko would sacrifice himself for her.

I can say, that's the way Azula as Zuko's sister approve their relationship!

And the Cabbage Man. This time I didn't expect it. Maybe he really is a Zutara shipper. Maybe he was the one who told the Ember Island player director that the two of them had a special relationship? (I'm making things up this time) 😂😂

Okay, back to Zutara fandom who has strong allies from the ATLA writers too.

John O'Brian (the one who confirming that they talked about Zutara endgame in writing room)

Joshua Hamilton (the one who fight alongside John O'Brian to make Zutara endgame)

I'm sure the list won't end there

I also wont forget that Zutara fandom has great writers and artists with fanarts, fanfics, video edits, meta and analysis, etc., which makes Zutara never boring. Thanks to y'all 💙❤️

They did get canon, but I can still enjoy the victory!

[zvtara-was-never-canon]

What do you think of people saying “Kataang had a downward spiral in book 3.”?

I saw that video called “get in losers we’re stanning zutara.”that claimed that, along with many other people who are anti Kataang.

"The people who ship the two characters that barely interacted the entire show and hated each other for 90% of it think Kataang not always agreeing means the ship is having a downwards spiral" And? Why should we care?

I genuinely don't see how anyone could think book 3 Kataang was bad. Literally my one criticism of it is the forced Ember Island drama that so clearly only existed because of that stupid rule of "Main couple can't get together until the last second of the last episode". There were so many sweet, meaningful and even ICONIC moments happen that season.

Aang staring at Katara in awe when he learns that she literally brought him back from the dead. Katara making it very clear through her talk with Hakoda that she doesn't WANT to separated from the people she loves (bringing closure to Aang's Guru conflict).

THE HEADBAND DANCE AFTER KATARA IS JEALOUS THAT AANG IS GETTING SO MUCH ATTENTION FROM OTHER GIRLS!!!!!!

Aang immediately crushing on the Painted Lady and helping Katara blow up a factory. "You're my forever girl." The kiss before the invasion and Katara cuddling up with him after it. Katara trusting Aang's instincts when he says he wants Zuko to teach him firebending but it only happening after she gave him the greenlight because her opinion is everything to him.

KATARA THREATENING TO MURDER ZUKO IF HE EVER HURTS AANG AGAIN!!!

Aang letting Katara take Appa, one of the last connections he has with his pacifist culture, on a mission to kill someone (which he fundamentally disagrees with) simply because she needs to go on that journey and he KNOWS Katara will eventually realize, on her own, that she's not killer. Katara explicitly telling Aang that she doesn't think of him as a little brother she has to take care of.

KATARA CHOOSING TO KISS AANG AND BE HIS GIRLFRIEND IN A SCENE DELIBERATELY ANIMATED TO LOOK LIKE A COUPLE KISSING AT THEIR WEDDING!!!!!!

If that's a downward spiral, what does a winning-streak look like? Them still being together in every other post-show material that came out through the years, and being confirmed to have spent decades married, and having kids and grandkids?

Oh wait, they did that too, my bad.

Seriously, even before I grew to like Kataang as a ship, I would have been OVERJOYED if some of my non-canon and/or non-endgame ships in literally ANYTHING got even HALF the good moments Kataang had in book 3. Downwards spiral my ass, motherfuckers are just jealous.

[onceuponanavatar]

Rewatching The Fortuneteller, and I noticed something that I haven't really seen brought up (forgive me if it has and I missed it).

There has been much discussion over Katara's fortune of falling in love with a powerful bender, but what strikes me is the noticeable lack of important romance in Aang's fortune. Of course, a romance wouldn't necessarily be The Big Thing that Aunt Wu would care about compared to a saving-the-world battle, but it seems almost like she didn't see it at all, and just told him something to cheer him up.

If we take it for granted that Aunt Wu's predictions always seem to come true, this makes the episode much more important narratively for its foreshadowing–and as an indication that maybe Aang wasn't always the intended, without a doubt endgame for Katara.

Why do I say that? There's further evidence. Flash forward to the end of Season 2, and we now have another wise elder advising Aang. This time, Guru Pathik tells Aang straight up that he must let go of Katara to master the Avatar state. At nearly the same time, Katara is making an important emotional connection with Zuko. The Fortuneteller episode, taken into context with the end of Season 2, seems to indicate a narrative arc wherein it is important for Aang to move on from his feelings for Katara so he can win his battle, and that Katara's destiny included a romance important enough for her future that Aunt Wu emphasized it.

Had we gotten that ending in Season 3 (or a Season 4), The Fortuneteller would have, in retrospect, been a much more significant foreshadowing episode that tied beautifully into an overarching moral about one's destiny sometimes being not what you thought you wanted, but perhaps what you needed.

[doyouevenshipbr0]

examples of atla live action’s attempts to be more feminist and how they actually had the opposite effect and/or hurt the integrity of the show

already talked about katara and pakku. does not make sense that she did not have a master. point blank. just because something sounds empowering (ie katara saying “yes. and ur looking at her.” after zuko asked if she found a master) doesn’t mean it automatically is. there still needs to be logic and katara “being her own master” defies logic imo im sorry!

katara in general. she has no ferocity here which to be very honest i dont think is fully the writers’ fault. some of the blame goes on them but the actress for katara just delivered alllllll of her lines w the same exact mild tone. katara is overly motherly. she is bossy. she is passionate. she is nurturing. she is emotional. THERE IS POWER IN THESE THINGS!!!!! why would we take away her spark?!?!?!

i loved live action suki. however, i LOVE the line in the original when her and sokka part ways and sokka says “i treated u like a girl when i should’ve treated u like a warrior.” and suki says “i am a warrior” *kisses sokka on the cheek* “but im a girl too.” THAT LINE WAS SO PERFECT like lemme say it again there is POWER IN FEMININITY! there is no shame in that!!!!! why does this show wanna take that away so badly. at one point live action suki says something like “im not just a warrior, im a kiyoshi warrior” and before she parts ways w sokka she thanks him for showing her some of the world or something like that. which was fine but i just love the simplicity of the original. a girl can be a warrior and have a crush. why do we have to change that?

this is a small one and it doesnt REALLY matter, but i cant help but think they changed this to be more “feminist” which is just dumb. yue isnt betrothed? well she was but she broke it off? and hahn (her ex) isnt a huge dick? i mean it wasn’t the worst thing and i didnt really mind it but i was just kinda like ?????. feel like yue being betrothed tied into her sense of responsibility and foreshadowed the sacrifices she will make for her people. so. feels rly weird that they changed it. i think it was to show more women agency which is always cool. but in the original, yue finally gets her agency by becoming the moon spirit. that should be the end of her character arc. idk. a weird change that seemed unnecessary.

sokka not being sexist. honestly i think the live action did a good job at omitting this while not REALLY making it feel like something was missing. with that being said, something was still missing lol. once again, its apart of sokka’s character. i feel like everyone has already expressed their hate for this so ill just leave it at that.

i am a TAD indifferent on the women of the northern tribe joining the forces during the fight. on one hand i cant lie i smiled bc obviously i love water bending and i love women so there was definitely apart of me that was happy to see that moment. however. it was kind of giving like in endgame when theres that random shot of all the women superheroes in one frame so the movie could have a “slay queen. we are girlbosses:)” moment. like it just felt a little empty and it wasnt the feminist battlecry they thought it was. these women have been healing their whole lives. why would they be any good on the frontlines of a fight? they never learned combat skills! HOWEVER, when we see them, its mainly just them reinforcing the walls so like. that makes enough sense. im cool w that.

i know im dwelling but as we know i hold atla in the highest regards. it does a lot of things perfectly imo. and one of the things i think it does PERFECTLY is its treatment of female characters. literally the only thing i can think of that i dont like is when team azula beats the kiyoshi warriors and ty lee says something like “u are NOT prettier than us” NDBSKSJDJ like ok that was weird. but anyways. it irritates me how the live action kind of seems to have this pov that says “the original was good, but there were some ideas and plots that were outdated so we changed them to keep with the times” like they’re fixing something that was broken if that makes sense. when in actuality, i think atla’s representation of women is perfect and timeless. it was relevant and powerful in 2005, and it is equally as relevant and powerful in 2024. there was nothing about its feminist themes that needed to be “fixed” or “updated”.

[firelxdykatara]

I too ship Zutara and think they should have been canon. Although for me it's important to know how such a rewrite would go down. I tried to think, and I'm lost.

After Mai betrayed Azula for him, will he just go "sorry, not interested"? He isn't obligated to date her because of this, but her redemption hinges on Zuko and I don't see it being satisfying if he ends up rejecting her after this.

I thought the solution would be to rewrite her arc in boiling rock to make her have a moral realization, but then the problem with Maiko is practically solved. Their relationship wasn't salvaged by her redemption because last time they talked, Mai still didn't understand what's wrong with the Fire Nation and only changed because she loved Zuko. So how do you make it both satisfying & logical?

With Kataang the problem is the Chakras. The problem with the original (in my opinion) is that after he opened his chakra, letting go of his attachment to Katara, he's still attached (forcing a kiss on eip). Should TCoD get rewritten so that Azula shoots him before he opens it? Then why wouldn't he just open it later? Maybe the chakra would be locked so he feels as though he doesn't need to overcome his attachment just yet. In that situation, how would his chakra even unlock? The stone thing felt like nonsense, so how would I do it?

So yeah I have no idea how to approach this. How would you? (Thanks)

I've been rotating this ask in the back of my head like a rotisserie chicken for a few days--it's interesting because I don't generally stop to think like, how would I write them out of these relationships, I either ignore the relationships completely (which isn't hard, they were barely footnotes in the cartoon) or play a little bit with jealous exes or something. Thinking about like, In A Perfect World where Bryke wasn't in charge of ATLA post-canon (because if zutara had been canon, you can be sure they would've made us regret it) is interesting, and I do have thoughts on how I'd handle their relationships in a rewrite.

(this got long, so the rest is beneath the cut)

Assuming you mostly want to keep canon intact, I think maiko would be the easiest to work around, given how little relevance their relationship has in canon. The problem with maiko as an endgame ship is that it was not set up that way--if it had been, it would not have begun entirely off-screen and their whole relationship would not have been a study in misery and utter inability to connect emotionally. His relationship with Mai was there to showcase just how much he had changed and how little he fit into the life he had been so sure he wanted more than anything since his banishment. It worked very well to highlight Zuko's growth--how that contrasted to Mai's lack of it and why she could not understand him even at his most open and vulnerable--and did not work nearly so well when she was shoved back with him in the epilogue, after he'd quite literally forgotten her existence (he never mentions her again after Boiling Rock, not even to say a word of mourning, considering he'd have every reason to believe she was killed for defying his sister).

I don't think you can fix this by giving Mai some moral realization, because there simply is no room for it. As @araeph says in the essay I linked:

As a character, Mai is very useful to the story during Zuko’s return, because she represents everything that Zuko gains by sticking by his father. A girl who cares about him; the ability to indulge her; the authority he has over others at the palace; we see it all in his interactions with Mai. But this makes Mai a tether to a life he has long outgrown. Her function is not to advance Zuko’s character development, but to obstruct it, which also unfortunately means that Mai gaining a full understanding of Zuko’s trials would be disadvantageous to the story. If she knew everything about him and still wanted him to stay, it would give Zuko more cause than he should have to remain in the Fire Nation, but if she knew and encouraged him to leave and join the Avatar, it would rob Zuko of the triumph of making this decision on his own. In other words, there are good narrative reasons for keeping Mai in the dark; it just doesn’t make their relationship any stronger.

The seeds of a genuine redemption arc (one that includes some sort of moral realization and change to her moral framework) for Mai would have to have been planted far earlier than five episodes from the end of the series, but doing so would have of necessity detracted from Zuko's own character arc and the realizations that he makes despite his attachment to Mai (or more specifically to their relationship, which I feel like he was clinging to more out of a sense of abject loneliness he couldn't shake rather than genuine feelings and emotional connection).

So, in my mind, since we're tackling this with an eye towards getting rid of maiko with the fewest ripples to the overall story anyway, the easiest way to do this would be make one slight change to the end of the Boiling Rock two-parter--have Ty Lee (who had always been the least gung-ho of the trio about bowing to Azula's whims and had to be textually threatened into joining her in the first place) save Zuko's life, and then have Mai (who showed the most genuine affection for Ty Lee anyway) save Ty Lee. I love Zuko more than I fear you always fell flat for me as some epic declaration of love, anyway, since a) Zuko is not around to hear it, and b) unlike Ty Lee, she never showed much fear of Azula to begin with, so it wasn't a very high bar to clear. It was a cool line that was entirely unearned, and I don't think it would be missed, there would be some cute mailee crumbs this way, and a throwaway line of getting them released from the prison after the war ended could wrap up their presence in the story pretty nicely.

Now, kataang is a little trickier, if only because the last leg of Aang's character arc is almost completely derailed by his refusal to let go of his possessive attachment to Katara, to the point where he never naturally reopens his chakras, he has to have the Rock of Destiny hit him in just the right place, and the deus ex lionturtle there to give him a way out of having to make a hard moral choice. (I've maintained for years that if you work the final act of your main character's overall arc in such a way that it could have been solved by one good session with a chiropractor, something got fucked along the way.)

The thing about Aang's chakras is that, narratively, his whole thing with Guru Pathik and leaving his training early to save his friends was basically his version of Luke running away from his training with Yoda on Degobah because of his Force vision, only to find out that his friends were in the process of rescuing themselves and then losing his hand because he hadn't completed the most crucial part of his training. What's missing, therefore, from the last act of Aang's character arc, is the return.

See, in Star Wars, Luke pretty explicitly makes the wrong choice when he chooses to prioritize saving his friends over attaining enlightenment and fully mastering the Force. It was the only choice he could have made, but it was still the wrong one--because, like Aang, his friends did not actually need him to save them, he actually almost makes it harder for them to get away by requiring them to save him because, like Aang, he loses a battle in a very critical way. This was a lesson he desperately needed to learn, and it is clear he has learned it by the time he makes it back to Degobah and witnesses the end of Yoda's life, his own enlightenment having already been reached.

But Aang never goes back to the Guru.

And the text refuses to allow us to sit with the fact that he made the wrong choice in prioritizing his attachment to Katara over his ability to master the Avatar State. He is actually narratively vindicated about it, because the plot bends itself into a pretzel so that he doesn't have to spend any time during the last book trying to reopen his chakras and regain access to the Avatar State, handed both in the final battle with no excess effort on his part, and handed the girl into the bargain. (The girl who never even wanted him, so far as we can tell from all the lack of cues she gave him that she actually returned his feelings.)

And I think this could have been solved with a few scattered scenes. Let Katara actually have some agency in her own romantic relationship (or lack thereof), insofar as noticing Aang's advances and clueing the audience in to how she actually feels. Let Aang struggle with the fact that he can't reach the Avatar State, that his mastery of the elements is in limbo because he can't access his full power, rather than ignoring all of this until the end of the show. If we're trying to keep the shape of the last season roughly the same, let Katara confront Aang about the invasion kiss.

This would have been the perfect time to establish that Katara actually does feel some type of way about Aang prior to the epilogue, and it could have saved us from the exceedingly cringey EIP kiss that Aang never apologized for. How it comes across now, of course, is that Katara basically pretends it never even happened, to the point where she doesn't even know what Aang is talking about during EIP until he reminds her--the death knell for any shot their relationship had at looking requited, because I can tell you, as someone who's been a teenage girl, if someone I had conflicted but burgeoning romantic feelings for had kissed me, I would not have completely forgotten about it only a few weeks later--and we never get any indication as to what she actually felt about the kiss (which was not mutual, despite what Aang's dialogue in the EIP scene implies) except for the fact that she looked away and frowned afterwards. (A change mandated by Bryke, who wanted to leave her feelings completely ambiguous; the original storyboards had her smiling to herself.)

So, with an eye towards wrapping up Aang's puppy love crush and establishing Katara's distinct lack of romantic feelings for him, have her talk to him about the kiss. A good frame of reference for this would be Meng's conversation with Aang in "The Fortuneteller", where she finally realizes that he doesn't like her in the same way she likes him. Katara and Aang's conversation about the invasion kiss could be a callback to this, with Aang having some important realizations--that just because Katara doesn't share his feelings doesn't mean she loves him any less, and just because he can't have her the way he wanted doesn't mean he has to love her any less, that she doesn't belong to him but that's ok, because she's still his family and they'll always have each other's backs. Which could have functioned well in helping him take another step towards unblocking his chakras. Going back to the Guru directly may not have worked, since by this point in the story we're hurtling towards the final confrontation and Sozin's Comet, but let Aang reflect on what the Guru told him with new understanding granted him by his experiences throughout the first half of the season.

To keep the stakes high and up the suspense, obviously, he shouldn't have fully unlocked his chakras and the AS before the final fight, but the seeds could be planted--little moments like a talk with Katara about the invasion kiss, maybe a little more empathy and understanding from him about why Katara needs closure in TSR, etc--and then, during the final fight, rather than hand him all the answers on a silver platter, have him almost lose. He still can't go full Avatar, he's out of time, he still doesn't know exactly what to do about Ozai given his own pacifism and desire to preserve that part of his culture--he tries to fight but he's pretty quickly overpowered. Idk how I would've animated this, and maybe it wouldn't have looked as cool for the final fight, but the true climax of the finale was the Zuko and Azula agni kai anyway, so it hardly matters--I'm picturing him doing the rock-shield thing and going into a brief meditative state, where he finally achieves the enlightenment necessary to unlock the AS on his own, no rock of chiropracty necessary. And at this point, I'd give Ozai a Disney Death, since leaving him alive causes more problems than it solves and it's not necessary for Aang to kill him for him to die--they're fighting on a mountain ffs--but if you don't want to change that part then him figuring out energy bending as part of becoming a fully realized Avatar would at least feel more earned than the lionturtle just handing it to him. (And that could've been foreshadowed better by seeding the idea for it earlier in the season.)

After all of that, particularly if you up the emotions during the agni kai and have Zuko and Katara kiss there (or something less explicitly romantic but still tender, like a brief forehead touch), it'd feel pretty natural to have a just friends ending for Aang and Katara. Maybe a brief, slightly awkward but ultimately amiable conversation if Zuko and Katara had a ~thing at their final fight, and then the final shot of the series could be the gaang all together, maybe zutara holding hands or Katara resting her head on his shoulder or something, but since they already kissed there wouldn't feel like a need to end the whole show on romance, something which I've always felt missed the point of the series.

And then, y'know, after that, the world's your oyster! This is how I'd do it if I were trying to keep the bulk of the final season intact. Of course, breaking it all down to its component pieces and rebuilding from the ground up is also an option, but that'd probably be a longer post lol.

[turboacek-blog]

Random: I wouldn’t mind Katara x Zuko and Aang x Toph in the Netflix adaptation

So with the Netflix live-action Avatar series coming out soon, I figured I should get this thought out the way

Back when it was first announced I remember they said they were going to slightly age up Katara so that she would be essentially Zuko’s age and Aang would still be 12 (112) basically instead of her being 14 she would be 16 like Zuko

And people speculated that it’s because they want to do Zutara (Zuko x Katara)

Amongst a number of other changes that’s has been revealed in the pre show premiere life cycle like the recent info they’re getting rid of Sokka’s sexism

I’ve mentioned it before but I’ve became neutral on remakes and reboots and such

Which includes changing things from the original is fine as the original still exists

It’ll be ininteresting how they handle it as the original show had a sizeable focus on Aang liking Katara and I can see it shifting to just being friends but it would also change a lot of scenes involving the two as the Gaang's dynamic is the way it was because one of the threads is that Aang and Katara had the romance aspect

And without it, you will need to sell their friendship in a different way which can be fun with a more platonic take but I think it has to be done well as Aang getting upset he can hurt Katara with fire bending or just the Haru and Jet situations are different if there isn’t a potential romance brewing

And might be worse if it’s fully one-sided as in Aang still has a crush but Katara doesn’t like him in that way at all, which ties into the other ship's angle

Katara x Zuko

It can work, I don’t think the people who shipped them were just crazy fans putting two characters together, there’s evidence

But without the Aang influence, it can be weird if not handled well let alone how they handled a character like Mai

Aang x Toph

I think when people mention this, it’s mostly because she’s the only one who would likely still be in his age range meaning she's the most realistic option if Katara and side characters are off the table

And you can pull it off I think, from Aang being Toph’s first friend, and the mentor-student dynamic can be tweaked plus they also have an opposites attract dynamic like Zutara. And reshift the crush Toph had on Sokka and Zuko to Aang it's possible

I just think it’s a case of they would have to truly commit and not tease too much / if it gets some backlash don't double back to the original canon pairs as you would basically be a season behind

Like don’t still do AangxKatara stuff if they are really going to do ZukoxKatara as the endgame

2/2/24 edit:

@vibee2001 let me know the Katara aging up was a rumor and she's more than likely still going to be 14, while Sokka and Zuko are aged up 1 year so most of what I said doesn't matter lol

But since they have said it's going to lean more into the drama genre I think a lot of what I said can still be applied to leaning towards drama by having different pairings and such and the general they are making changes to some elements of the story like characters

[yuttikkele]

i finished a new media so now it’s time for ATLA PRIDE HCs WOOOO!!!

so aang is unlabeled (and doesn’t identify as unlabeled either 💀💀) in all areas basically. he loves freely and doesn’t see gender or sex. he doesn’t see it in himself either. he mostly presents and refers to himself as a dude, but he found out he doesn’t mind being seen as a lady either. he’s crushed on katara and zuko during different points in his life, but he settled on katara. functionally, he’s pan and genderfluid.

katara is queer. she is the most unqueer queer ever though. she acts straight as a board I tell ya. she doesn’t really confine herself to labels much either, but she can tell you she was surprised at how much she enjoyed Lady Aang when that first became a thing.

sokka is bi. he probably thought men were supposed to marry women, but he quickly got over it when he got over his short lived misogyny. bi awakening wasn’t really a thing, he just sorta knew he always liked boys and girls. he’s had many crushes, but yue and suki are the ones that always stood out the most for him. obvi he dabbles in drag, that’s like sorta a canon thing. zuko’s autistic charms get to him and he ends up developing a crush on him.

toph is an aroace lesbian. she only dates the finest of women. she can tell she’ll read your heart with her feet.

zuko is gay like GAAAYYYY I don’t mean to bring accidental cheesy puns into this but he is a FLAMING homosexual, and I refuse to believe otherwise. at some point I said “I like zutara, but I just think atla is way funnier when in the back of your mind, zuko is gay.” anyways he’s gay and sex repulsed. zuko didn’t know he liked boys until he was 17, and he didn’t realize he was completely gay until a year later. he was very comphet and was always expected to produce a blood heir, and he didn’t think much of it. looking back, zuko noticed how he did find boys cute when he was younger and often avoided them because of it. he could sense that he and his sister were different, but he always thought that was because they were royalty. he only really started dating mai because they had so much in common, he thought that’s what was supposed to happen. when zuko, not long after becoming fire lord, realized he liked boys, he kept it to himself. a year later when he realized he only liked boys, he vented about it to mai, and she helped him through it. they broke up, but he still values her friendship. zuko finally gets with sokka in his 20s. yeah it took that long.

OTHER CHARACTERS THAT AREN’T GAANG THAT COME TO MIND!!

azula is a LESSSBIAAAAN that is a lesbian

I wanna say suki and ty lee are dating

smeller bee is definitely trans I don’t wanna hear it

uncle iroh doesn’t care. he loved his wife whatever happened to her, and he would also date a man.

EDIT: sorry just here to say that zukaang is endgame actually. they get together in aang’s mid to late 20s after pining for a long time. aang always had sorta an underlying unspoken crush on zuko, and zuko caught feelings when aang shot up taller than him and he realized aang got really handsome. and yknow. the fact that THEY’RE SOULMATES.

[caligvlasaqvarivm]

I've been reading some of your homestuck essays, I think they're really good! I would like to know what you think about post-retcon homestuck and the interactions between reader and author throughout homestucks publishing. I was not in the fandom at the time of it being published, but I find this to be a very interesting aspect of the comic!

I was only on the fringes of the fandom at the time, but even that was enough to recognize that the fandom was absolutely awful. Every bad story you've heard about the Steven Universe, Voltron, and Undertale fandoms has its roots in the Homestuck fandom.

Pretty much as soon as the webcomic got popular on Tumblr, Hussie was put under intense scrutiny for basically every decision they ever made ever. I'm not going to say that Hussie was a perfect individual who never did anything wrong, because Hussie is a human being and that's how it works, but it's basically impossible to overstate how much the fandom tried to make an enemy out of Hussie.

The fandom was convinced that Hussie was their personal LE, and that attitude continues to this day - like, for an easy example of the fandom harassing Hussie for Literally Anything, when he stated that all trolls were bi/pan, to the point where they didn't have specific words for single-gender attraction, comparing it to a "more exacting preference" like somebody who only dates fat people - but that even within that framework, Kanaya was undoubtedly a lesbian character - people insisted Hussie was being homophobic. Fucking homophobic! For confirming all trolls are bi/pan, except Kanaya, who's a lesbian!

Other examples include: calling Hussie homophobic for John saying he wasn't a homosexual and Karkat literally not knowing what a homosexual was, because again, all trolls are bi/pan. Calling Hussie racist for making the kids aracial but accidentally leaving references to Dave having pale/pink skin in (because Hussie is a biased human person who can't be perfect and who did try to be more inclusive as the comic went on). Deciding that the dancestors served no purpose except for Hussie to be mean to their audience. Like there are valid criticisms to be made of Homestuck, but anything that was valid, nuanced, or thoughtful was drowned under a deluge of incoherent accusations of every -ism and -phobia that the fandom could possibly muster, the fandom as a whole racing to see who could paint Hussie as the biggest monster, even as they were harassing them to make more Homestuck.

Not to mention this was the era of rampant, unchecked ship wars and fandom misogyny. Not that fandom misogyny has gone away, mind you, but it's slightly more in check now. This was the era of fandom where it was normal to be sent death threats for shipping the "wrong" ship, and fandom ship wars were often encouraged by media of the time (love triangles were HOT - think zutara vs. kataang, team jacob/team edward, danny fenton/sam manson vs. danny fenton/valerie grey) because it drove up engagement. Homestuck was not really interested in shipping wars and love triangles - while many characters had circuitous routes and false starts, many were also pretty clearly set up to have specific endgame ships. But the fandom wasn't trained to behave that way, and the troll quadrants + canonical bi/pan trolls + active role of romance in the story meant that the ship wars were brutal - and also, Hussie was getting harassed every step of the way for not making peoples' favorite ships canon, a major part of a larger trend of people constantly ragging on Hussie for things not going the way they wanted plot-wise, to the point where Hussie had to comment on it constantly on his Formspring.

And don't think I forgot about the fandom misogyny! Here's a hot take for the class: Vriska is literally just Girl Zuko. She's ostensibly a noble from an imperialistic, warmongering, fascist society with an abusive parent who raised her with strict expectations, who thinks she has to act much more evil and more tough than she feels in order to earn the approval of her parent/society, and who secretly has misgivings and feels really bad about it and was set up for a redemption arc.

And people HATED Vriska. Vriscourse was so bad that many Homestuck fan spaces banned talking about Vriska at ALL, because just the mere mention of her name would spark massive, endless flame wars as people argued whether or not she deserved her little redemption arc (spoilers: yes, it turns out death is cheap in Homestuck and characters changing, growing, and becoming better is a huge part of the story) or whether or not she was justified in doing the things she did. Genuinely, I think a huge part of this intense hatred and anger was just misogyny. God forbid women have Zuko's character arc.

It was also part of two other large trends in the fandom - the first was that, despite finding every possible reason to call Hussie -ist and -phobic they could, the fandom itself was, ummm... "of its time." For example, the original March Eridan stuff was pretty clearly meant to be funny because, look, man in a dress! Isn't it sooo funny when Eridan wears a dress? (No hate to the artist, this was a long time ago and I'm sure they're a different person now.) The fandom was also constantly goading Hussie on WRT which characters were fat, and while we can argue about whether Hussie is fatphobic because none of the characters are canonically drawn to be fat, I'm going to go to bat for them on this: people treat the Fat Vriska jokes as though Hussie is the creepy weirdo exclusively, but the fandom was goading them on and thought that shit was hilarious, because that was what early internet fandom was like a lot of the time - at the same time as it harassed and decried creators for being problematic, it would turn around and delight in shitting on women, neurodivergent people, POC, and fat people, and Homestuck was rampant with it.

The second trend the Vriscourse was a part of was one that also hasn't fully gone away, but it's better now - wilful ignorance of the actual comic's contents. I'm not talking about the usual fandom fare of noncanon ships or "x character is trans/autistic/etc. even though I know there's no canon basis," which is all pretty damn harmless, but I mean like, memes and fanon would override canon and you would be outright harassed for not playing along. There are STILL places to this day that will call you an actual fascist, genocide liker, evil and irredeemable, etc. if you try to stick up for Eridan, even though Eridan is actually the LEAST casteist highblood and his entire character arc is about how his shitty fascist society makes him deeply anxious and unhappy. Similarly, you can/definitely would be be harassed for saying you don't like March Eridan and/or think it's OOC (it is), and I have nothing but sympathy for Gamzee and Equius fans, who also get it really bad.

The most vocal parts of the fandom, if not the majority, were people who were generally uninterested in engaging with Homestuck on Homestuck's terms, instead dead set on making up a version of it in their head and harassing people who disagreed, including Hussie. Echoes of that persist to this day - Equius, Gamzee, and Eridan get it bad, but practically none of the trolls have fandom interpretations that actually line up with who they are - Kanaya is actually just Eridan's bully (and did nothing to help Tavros after she caught Vriska kissing him), but people portray her as Nice Team Mom. Feferi is a casteist hypocrite who loves classism and calling people the r-slur, but people portray her as bubbly equality lady. So on and so forth. Like, damn, I barely participate in fandom and I'm out here meeting people who think Karkat ACTUALLY hates his friends like he says he does.

And then, of course, these people went and harassed Hussie because actual Homestuck did not match up with the Homestuck that existed only in their own heads.

On top of all the fandom harassment, Hussie was also facing ballooning scope. Most of Homestuck was a single dude drawing, writing, and animating it, and they would update every two or three days, sometimes less. So from the get-go, Homestuck was an INSANE project that demanded an insane amount of work and time from Hussie, and as it went on, it only got worse - and fandom expectations only got bigger. Suddenly, Hussie had to be in charge of merchandise, in charge of vetting, hiring, directing, and paying third-party artists, planning animations months if not years in advance, creating entire sections of the comic that had GAMEPLAY, directing ACTUAL GAMES, etc. ... there's an argument to be made that Hussie should not have taken on a workload they couldn't manage, but at the same time, the fandom certainly wasn't telling them to slow down. If anything, they harassed Hussie for every update, and were furious when hiatuses needed to happen to plan and execute some of the bigger moments later in the comic.

There's a Sarah Z video out there on the creation of the Homestuck game, which I think is OK if you take into account that Sarah kind of has fandom brain and is a little biased against Hussie (and I guess Hussie did send a spurious legal threat which is pretty funny but, y'know, understandable that Sarah would be peeved), where it's really clear that Hussie was not ready for the kind of responsibility, time, and effort needed to manage a whole-ass video game.

So by the time Game Over and the Retcon roll around, you basically have to imagine that Hussie has so many irons in the fire that the furnace is about to pop like a balloon, and the people they were making the damn things for in the first place have been relentlessly harassing them for YEARS, and weren't even that interested in engaging with the actual story in the first place. I'd say the majority of the fandom to this day STILL does not understand Eridan - how do you think they would've taken his redemption arc, and especially the fact that he was set up to date Karkat and Roxy? Given the pattern of their behavior up to that point... they'd probably harass Hussie and call them homophobic.

This is why I genuinely cannot blame Hussie for turning on the fandom and truncating their story. Vriska got upgraded to main character and had her character development reset because fuck you, fandom, you couldn't understand her redemption arc in the first place so now you don't get one. DaveKat got (kind of) made canon but as a weird throuple with the Mayor because fuck you, fandom, you didn't appreciate any of the actual gay ships that were set up so now you're stuck with brutally OOC DaveKatMayor. Karkat and Jake have their plot threads left hanging because fuck you, fandom, you never even noticed all the prophecies and symbolism and character arcs because you were all too obsessed with screaming at women and took the dancestors as a personal insult, so now the guy who's supposed to defeat LE and the guy who's supposed to bring equality and forgiveness to all bloodlines don't even get to participate in any of the important boss battles.

People call Hussie a troll, and they really aren't. If you read their old Formspring, they're clearly deeply fucking passionate about the art of storytelling, and switch between bafflement, mild indignation, and playing along when people ask them stupid questions. But back then, they were always very serious and genuine when they answered questions asked in good faith, and I'm being 100% genuine when I say that I've learned about how to tell stories better by reading Hussie's Formspring. Over time, however, those stupid questions became more common, and often morphed into outright harassment, and in response to that, Hussie's answers became more humorous and facetious, and the fandom - who was already trying to find ANY reason to hate Hussie - started to paint Hussie as an unreliable trickster and liar who got their jollies by shitting on the fandom.

Honestly, in doing so, the fandom was what turned Hussie into exactly that. Again, I'm not saying Hussie was a perfect baby who did nothing wrong - there's a lot of stuff to critique and scrutinize about their writing, their biases, and what topics they found appropriate to joke about. However, I AM saying that they were also just a human fucking being who was trying to write a good story, who was harassed at every turn, mostly for things that actually weren't problematic at all, whose words and actions were always taken in the absolute worst possible faith, and that the fandom is not fucking faultless, and if there's anyone that I'm mad at for how bad Homestuck ended, it's the fans.

That's my hottest Homestuck take.

[theweeklydiscourse]

Literally saw someone say that aang didn’t only accept the digestible parts of Katara and to “leave my baby alone!”

I think in this discourse we forget, besides the literal SA (because yes kissing people without consent especially doing it TWICE is SA), Aang is a kid. A child. Aang as a person is over idealistic….it only makes sense he would go about having crushes the same way. And that’s the only flaw of his I don’t “hate” him for. So yes, he does accept only the digestible parts of Katara, because he’s an overly idealistic child who runs away whenever he has to confront something. That is why it’s a such a shame he never let go of his attachment to Katara. Like he NEEDED that, especially to grow. I don’t think that baby needed a relationship at all, and even if he was in one, I’d wish for it to be with someone of the same maturity level (just to clarify I’m in no way saying he is mature just had to say this unless it comes off confusing).

The fact that the conflict of “letting go of attachments” was dropped in favour of Aang just…getting what he always wanted anyways is a big problem with his character arc. His attachment (and dependence) on Katara was holding him back, yet the narrative never truly reckons with that character flaw in him. With that in mind, we can then understand why people still feel somewhat uncomfortable with shipping him with Katara when he hasn’t truly matured.

Some will claim that Aang matured a great deal by the end, but I don’t agree. I think that he changed (slightly) but in truth, he is absolved of making the difficult decisions and gets to pick the comfortable option at the expense of his character growth. He’s idealistic when it comes to Katara, something that makes sense for a childish schoolboy crush, but does not make sense as the foundation of a relationship. He can’t let go of that romanticized view, and because of that, he wasn’t able to connect with her on a level that Zuko was. Romantic or platonic, Zuko saw Katara’s overt rage and pain and was receptive to it (which Aang wasn’t able to do).

Yet so many people don’t see why that is such a gaping hole in their relationship. People can revise history as much as they want, but the facts speak for themselves. Aang never meaningfully digested the uglier and more complex facts of Katara, which is…not great for the endgame couple. Aang’s young, but he’s not a clueless baby. He should’ve learned why his idealized image of Katara was bad.

[loopy777]

What do you think about the take that maiko was written to show that they were dysfunctional and shouldn't be together but the writers made them endgame in the last minute to tidy things up?

I think it's one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. But you were probably expecting that. XD

Let's prove it mathematically. Toph is a main protagonist. Toph has a romance teased with Sokka that doesn't go anywhere. Toph also gets a lesser romantic tease with Zuko. Toph doesn't get an endgame romance. If the storytellers cared about pairing people off for "tidiness," then how could they leave one of the main protagonists single after establishing two different crushes for her? If Zuko needs a romance for "tidiness," why wasn't he paired with Toph? QED.

But that's not as much fun as talking about Maiko. So let's trace the arc and see if it actually looks like a dysfunctional dynamic turned into a positive romance at the last minute.

The only place where Maiko seems even a little dysfunction in The Beach; otherwise, they're almost always getting along and being affectionate with each other and Zuko is always smiling in Mai's presence unless he's thinking about his father or Azula is present and actively trying to ruin their fun. And The Beach portrays the root of their problems being Zuko's self-loathing, not any problem with each other. Sure, Zuko talks about Mai being a "big blah," but he also insults Ty Lee there for walking on her hands, so I think he's just cranky and picking on the girls' most obvious characteristics because he's a bully and misogynist. Once he admits to being angry at himself, he's able to get along with everyone again, especially with Mai and including some characteristically physical affection.

So if the intention was for them to be dysfunctional, that's a huge writing failure. It's not present in the story, which is especially odd if that was the real intention and the Happily Ever After was a last-minute whim. We can't even say that Mai was a bad influence on Zuko, as she literally never influences him in any way at any point in their relationship -- except for one, which will discuss in a moment -- merely supporting whatever it is he thinks he wants at any given second.

And that one moment of influence Mai has? She's part of the group encouraging Zuko to be honest with himself about the source of his anger. And I'm having a hard time figuring out how that's toxic.

As I like to say, if someone is arguing that some other ship would have been written better than Maiko, then no, it wouldn't have been. It would have been written by the same people who are terrible romance storytellers no matter what ship we're talking about. But by all means, if militant Zutarians want their ship written by the geniuses behind Makorra and/or Gene Yang, I think their cluelessness is self-evident and it would be impolite to point out how stupid they are.

Anyway, back to the other half of the allegations, that Maiko happened by accident at the last minute to make things "tidy" even though everyone's story arcs were planned in advance of the season's production.

(I swear, some of these fans act like high-quality animation is the same thing as a low-budget live-action scifi show filmed in chronological order by a cast of drug-addicted actors trapped in Toronto. )

The ending of The Boiling Rock where Mai saves Zuko is a load-bearing plot point. The entire second half of that two-parter is made to build up to it, with scenes between Mai and Zuko showing their continued affection for each other and eroding Mai's commitment to the Fire Nation. Then she betrays the Fire Nation, accomplishing her switch to being a Good Guy, and she gets the confrontation with Azula which starts off the absolutely critical Azula Loses Control character arc which directly leads to her defeat.

And that arc is present in all Azula's appearances after Mai's betrayal. She can't stand on her own when she orders Mai and Ty Lee locked up, the first sign of her waning sense of control. Her voice is raw and emotional when she attacks Zuko at the Western Air Temple, and there's the way she has to unpin her hair to save her own life in a series where the hairdos are highly symbolic. Then in the finale, she explodes at Ozai, her godlike father figure, about her treatment. Before her fight with Zuko, spends an entire episode being paranoid and hallucinatory. All of that is caused by Mai.

If Mai wasn't meant to become a Good Guy, where does Azula's arc come from? If Azula wasn't meant to fall apart like that, where else is her character supposed to be properly explored? Was the entire tone of Zuko's confrontation with his sister supposed to be completely different, and not a contrast in their states of mind that conclusively proves the self-destructive nature of Ozai's Fire Nation culture? The whole back-half of the third season for the Fire Nation characters hinges entirely on Mai's grand romantic gesture of saving Zuko.

If the storytellers planned to do all that, then didn't intend for Mai and Zuko to have a triumphant reunion, I don't know how they can consider themselves professionals.

Unless the theory is that it would have been easier to just stick Ty Lee in Mai's place? But then I don't think Zuko's interactions with Ty Lee were any less toxic, so we're still left lopsided there.

I dunno, I'm a bit freaked out at the lengths some people will go to pretend that the Maiko endgame wasn't a regular part of the story. Do they know it's been 17 years since that first aired?

[bluespiritshonour]

Another day, another “Zuko hates Mai's core personality that is apathy lmao he was straight up lying about liking her being gloomy” I'm so fucking tired.

Saying Mai's core personality is apathy is a fundamental misunderstanding of her character anyways.

But with each passing day I hate the writers of The Beach for having Zuko yell at Mai for it. I might think it's because he wants what's best for her. But I honestly can't bring myself to contradict people who read it as “Zuko's in denial, he's passionate and Mai doesn't match his energy” ugh.

I hate the writers so much for that.

Mai doesn't break up with him for his jealousy. She doesn't even take it seriously. She breaks up with him immediately after the “big blah” comment. The fact that Zuko never comforts her for that specific thing either💀 you can see that she's hurt and confused and he's the last person she expected to tell her that.

I was on the fence about The Beach because it might be maiko at their lowest but it's also the only ep that focuses on Mai and has Zuko focus on her (no matter how oblique). But now I hate it completely.

They'll do anything but have Zuko support or comfort Mai in any way possible.

The moment you pair up a girl with a fan favourite male character you know the takes are gonna be rancid. You should write them well to avoid it but nooooooooooooooooo. If they weren't that invested they shouldn't have made Maiko endgame. At least Mai fans would be at peace rn without all the hate she gets.

I hate how The Beach is the only ep I have to turn to when I want to say that “Zuko pays attention to what Mai has to say” “Zuko wants Mai to not bottle up her feelings” But it's also the ep that gives antis the most ammo.

On a side note: shout-out Castlevania:Nocturne writers for shutting any possible avenues that could lead to Annette hate. I'm sure she still has haters—but their arguments are going to be too stupid to engage with. I wouldn't have to sit here and silently fume at another one of my favourite female characters getting dunked on because the writers fucking allowed it.

[dukeofdelirium]

when are they gonna stop perpetuating this blatant lie … I am so tired fr. Katara and Zuko were never planned to be a romantic pairing. Toph and Aang were also never planned to be a romantic pairing. And Sokka and Suki were also not originally planned to be an endgame couple—Suki was going to be a one time character but was later brought back because fans liked her character. Katara and Aang were actually planned from the beginning, though, and bryke have said so many times.

Mike: sorry to disappoint the zvtara fans out there, but we never intended for Zuko and Katara to get together.

Bryan: come on, kids. zvtara never would have lasted; it was just dark and intriguing.

they also gave an interview in 2007 and said:

Bryan: I think it's important to note one thing I have heard from the internet is that some fans have the idea we've put shipping into the show because they've asked for it...requested it. This is totally not the case. Mike and I like to do melodrama stuff and we wanted that in there. Not that it's all cheesy, but we wanted that from the get-go. Five years ago when we were developing this.

Mike: Yeah, Aang-Katara, that romance. Some stuff developed along the way, and we're glad some fans are more receptive to that element of the show, but it was in the DNA of the thing from the start.