#We get u Menelaus

[tes-1]

Queen of Sparta

[johaerys-writes]

I got u fam. Achilles was known to ransom captives rather than kill. Why? If he went to troy for glory, then why was he not out there killing left and right? Do you think that deep down it was against his nature and he was just “stalling”? What exactly was his plan to achieve glory? TSoA in a way implies Achilles did a lot of “stalling” to have more time with Patroclus, but I want to hear your take on the Iliad.

Hello, thank you for this ask! You raise a few different questions so let me answer them one by one.

Why does Achilles ransom captives rather than kill? What was his plan to achieve glory? In Book 1, Achilles explains exactly why he went to Troy, and his attitude towards the Trojans in general. This is what he says to Agamemnon at the agora:

For it was not on account of Trojans warriors I came to wage battle here, since to me they are blameless— never yet have they driven off my cattle, or my horses, nor ever in Phthia, where the rich earth breeds warriors, have they destroyed my harvest, since there is much between us, both shadowy mountains and clashing sea. But we followed you, O great shameless one, for your pleasure, to win recompense for Menelaos and for you, dog-face, from the Trojans; none of this do you pause to consider or care for.

Achilles doesn't have anything personal against the Trojans. He didn't come to Troy for the singular purpose of slaughtering them and their families, nor does he seem to revel in that violence, even though he also says that of all the Achaeans he is the one that conducts 'the greater part of furious war', as the strongest among them. He takes pride in his skill but he isn't bloodthirsty. He came to Troy as much for honour (i.e. winning recompense for the Atreides and restoring Hellas' honour as a whole, which is how the war was framed), as for glory. Therefore, helping Agamemnon win his war and bringing Helen back to Menelaus would have been Achilles' 'plan to achieve glory' if you want to call it that. I know that the take of Achilles being obsessed with his own glory and doing everything in his power to make sure he gets as much of it as he can is quite popular, but I believe that his reasons for fighting in the war are much more multi-faceted than that. And it's also something that he very eloquently explains throughout the Iliad as well.

Later on, in Book 21, when Lykaon (one of Priam's sons who had been sold by Achilles to slavery and managed to find his way back home) implores Achilles to spare him once more, Achilles tells him that he used to spare the Trojans because it is what his heart chose once, but that is no more. And then he kills him—which comes to show us that brutally slaughtering the Trojans he encounters isn't like him at all, and it is not what others expect of him.

As to whether it is in his nature or not, I really can't say. I do think that, as I said earlier, Achilles as a character isn't bloodthirsty or violent for the sake of being violent, he does not kill needlessly even when he does have that choice—we only see him slaughtering like that after Patroclus' death, which is essentially the breakdown of his character. But I believe it also has to do with his upbringing: in a previous ask I mentioned that Euripides in his Iphigenia at Aulis has Agamemnon explain to Menelaus (and the audience) that Chiron raised Achilles to be honourable and to stay away from wickedness. Achilles himself says that Chiron taught him to keep a single heart (i.e. to be steadfast and keep true to his words and actions), to be respectful of the gods and those he chooses to follow (the Atreides in this case) and do honour to them with his spear, unless they lead him or the people astray. That doesn't sound like someone who kills people left and right, nor like someone obsessed with glory no matter what is required to achieve it. And this is a portrayal that is encountered in other works of antiquity as well. Which tells me that this is the way Achilles was intended to be perceived: stubborn and hotheaded, but at the same time honourable, law abiding and very rigid in his moral code leader and warrior.

2. Was Achilles stalling? That is a question that does not really have a straightforward answer imo. Miller chooses to have Achilles stall so he can have more time with Patroclus, but the truth is that in the Iliad we have no evidence of that. Even the extent to which Achilles knew of the prophecy isn't conclusive: in Book 1, he already knows that he will never be leaving Troy and that he'll die there, but it is only in Book 18 that Thetis mentions that Achilles' death will come soon after Hector's. It is not clear in that exchange, at least to me, whether Achilles hears of it for the first time or if he has known it all along. So we can't really know whether he was delaying his own death, nor if he did it for the sake of Patroclus. I believe that anything we say on this topic is pure speculation.

As to why the war took as long as it did: there is no straightforward answer to this either. Perhaps the armies were evenly matched for the most part. Perhaps Troy's walls were just that strong. Perhaps it is the result of bad leadership: as it is hinted a few times in the Iliad, Achilles would get into arguments with Agamemnon and other leaders, presumably because he disagreed with their ways of doings things, which could mean that Agamemnon was just, well, an incompetent leader whose decisions caused the war to go on longer and longer. Perhaps it is a combination of all of the above. For all we know, Achilles, as the extremely straightforward and honourable person he is, wanted to do his best to make sure the Atreides win their war so they can all go back home—and he has already planned and prepared for his death in that case, as he tells Patroclus before he leaves to fight Hector that he expects him to come back safe from the fighting and take his son to Phthia to meet his grandfather and his clansmen after Achilles is gone.

That doesn't sound like someone who fears or stalls his death, but as someone who has prepared for it even if it saddens him. Besides, Achilles' greatest descriptor, 'swift-footed', does not imply a person who would be stalling when it comes to anything, rather a person that sees what he has to do and simply does it; although whether he was ever entirely sold on Agamemnon's and Menelaus' war is also debatable, if you ask me.

I hope I answered your questions!

[menelaiad]

can I prompt you to talk about Menelaus sparing Helen I'm just like :chinhands: about everything u say about the house of atreus

hey, if you're willing to listen, i'm more than happy to talk - thank you!

so. again. we got Big Three versions.

menelaus says 'guys it's chill i'll kill her at home. let's all cool our jets' (this is the version in euripides)

menelaus goes to kill her himself. helen shows her boobs. menelaus suddenly very chill (this is also implied by euripides)

menelaus gets men to kill her. helen shows her boobs. men suddenly very chill (stesichorus)

CAN YOU GUESS WHICH TWO I DESPISE? no. fr. the last two (the boob two) are far too dependent on helen being vain. and helen .... almost not feeling any guilt or shame from what's happened. and we know that's not true from the iliad. these two, to me, are classic. THIS IS JUST HOW HOT HELEN WAS propaganda. cause yknow. ur a greek/roman/ancient dude and you hear that helen of sparta showed you her boobs like 'damn bro i wouldn't kill her either ahahahaha pass the wine, maximus'.

but helen was never vain. she was never arrogant. she was confident and self-assured. but it's pretty much everyone AROUND helen that comments on her beauty and stuff. she never really does herself? which is another fascinating element of her character tbh. so her doing THIS as a means to be spared? doesn't suit me. do i think helen wanted to die/was willing to die? no. but i think she would have gone about pleading for her life a different way, y'know? also i hate the whole 'her tits got her into this mess they'll get her out of it' like shut UP. menelaus is not 12. he's fucking 60 odd at this point. he is tired. he is wounded. he is so beyond mentally well. give him some respect. he wouldn't have been blind sided by this.

but i don't think menelaus EVER planned to kill her. i can accept euripudes' version cause i think there would have been a lot of greek men that would have wanted to see helen dead. it makes sense yknow? they dont see the full narrative. the big picture. as far as they're concerned helen ran away. loads of people died. and now she's gonna get away with it. they're not narrative aware enough to see all the cogs of fate and the gods and all this. so i can respect that some greeks would have wanted her to suffer and menelaus would have risked a fuckin riot if he outright said 'nah lads she's fine lets crack on' so the whole 'wait til we get home' narrative is a good way for him to save time. to buy him and helen some time to come up with a plan, a story. to hear each other out. to work through stuff. they don't get back to sparta for like. 10 more years. they can EASILY have come up with some reason why she's not been killed yet. or why he's not gonna go through with it/why it's all worked out.

in regards to menelaus never wanting to kill her, i believe that because of how menelaus behaves in the iliad. menelaus is constantly lamenting the deaths of the greeks. the needless death and suffering. how these men are working and sacrificing to get helen back. to bring her HOME. what would killing her do? another senseless death. all the sacrifice for naught because menelaus doesnt get his wife back. he goes back to sparta alone. as if he never even went to fucking troy and tried to get her back?????

and also because menelaus loves her. despite everything he loves her and he never stopped. it's why i really like his portrayal in IOA even if he is a giant ass clown. he's a man desperate to get his wife back. and he's under the impression they're just gonna go to troy and get her back. simple as. two months tops. he's frantic and desperate and willing to try anything to get her back (yo bro kill ur daughter for me kthx). and i don't think that desire to get her back changes. menelaus grows more subdued and quiet. and has less fire. but he's still trying. he goes toe to toe with paris, is willing to take on hektor. menelaus is very much: 'i am dying at troy or i am leaving with my wife' and how is that not love? it's literally. he is going to get her back or die trying.

(also idk how much people value to fall of troy texts that are around but like. menelaus kills deiphobus in those. when dei is with helen. the man is insane in those moments he could easily have took helen out too in his madness. but he doesn't. also also. when he's in the horse and he hears helen, he's said to 'groan' when he remembers her and given the context of the other men weeping and stuff. this is like. a groan of pain. hearing helen's voice after so long and remembering her. HURTS him. he's missed her so much.)

menelaus and helen loved each other. you see it in odyssey 4. the healing they must have gone through in those 10 years. is so admirable and powerful. and they did it because they wanted to. because they were gonna see this out. they were gonna make this work. and even zeus acknowledges it. because he lets menelaus into elysium just to be with helen (his own DAUGHTER) for eternity. even though menelaus has LITERALLY no elysium qualities. not even zeus cant bear to separate these two.

they're just so fucking powerful.

[chaoticvintagelesbian]

The Iliad is insane. Like batshit crazy. I'm only on book 4 so far. Its chaotic af

- More 💖drama💖 than any soap opera.

- Achilles asking his mom to kill everyone just cos they upset him

- Achilles Daddy Issues!

- Achilles & Patroclus seem cute in theory, but ACHILLES DOESN'T DESERVE PATROCLUS.

- Thetis is a mafia mommy, literally every God owes her.

- hera just like if I kill ur fav city, u can kill mine

- Helen literally calls herself a slut

- Hector calls his brother paris: "sex crazed seducer", & "should never have been born" & "disgrace"

- We love Hector.

- ACHILLES IS A DISNEY PRINCESS!!!!!

- Ares just vibin in all the death.

- we live to be as petty as Eris

- almost all female characters are girlboss, gatekeep, gaslight.

- all homeric heroes literal psychopaths.💀

- agamemnon's brother gets shot, he literally makes a speech about how that affects him - Menelaus literally comforts him while bleeding

- athene grabs Achilles' hair and stops him from lunging to kill someone, while invisible. That most look so silly.

- We also love Nestor 😍

[godsofhumanity]

BOOKS XIII-XV | HOMER'S ILIAD | LITERATURE REVIEW

SUMMARY: The tide of war changes to favour the Achaeans when Hera evokes Aphrodite and Hypnos' help to beguile Zeus and put him into a deep sleep. Poseidon takes advantage of Zeus' temporary incapacitation to reinvigorate the Achaeans. As Zeus sleeps, Hector gets badly injured by a boulder thrown by Ajax. Zeus awakens and berates Hera for her deceptions, and then calls Apollo to heal Hector. Poseidon leaves the fight at the persuasion of Iris. Once healed, Hector rejoins the battle and kills twelve men.

previous book / all books / next book

im covering 3 books in this one post.. im sorry for not updating more regular! i got busy ahaha. but i think that from here on out, there will be a LOT more to discuss about the Iliad.. considering that we're very close to getting into the really tragic deaths.. u know who i'm talking about.

now, to begin with, in Book 13, we see Poseidon take to the field and start inciting the Greeks to be fearless against Hector's onslaught.

this is a curious thing for Poseidon to do because Zeus in the previous books has explicitly said that NONE of the gods are allowed to participate in the battle.

i think that Poseidon's bold move is such a perfect reflection of his status as god of the seas.

the seas are wild, and unpredictable. you can't tame the ocean. and in the same way, we see that even though Zeus has commanded something, Poseidon isn't the type to simply nod and say yes.

in fact, even Athena and Hera, who are quite bold individuals themselves, aren't actually so brave as to directly defy Zeus- they use tricks and underhanded ways to subtly get what they want. but Poseidon isn't subtle at all. all of his moves are very loud and dominant.. something that is enforced by Homer's detailed descriptions of Poseidon's chariot, his horses, and his movements:

"He clothed himself in raiment of gold, grasped his gold whip, and took his stand upon his chariot. As he went his way over the waves the sea-monsters left their lairs, for they knew their lord, and came gamboling round him... so lightly did the horses fly that the bronze axle of the car was not even wet beneath it, and thus his bounding steeds took him to the ships..."

we see lots of plosive consonants here: "gold", "grasped", "gamboling", "bronze", "beneath", "bounding". all of these words work together to create this very dramatic and loud image of Poseidon.

and with Poseidon's bold movements, the Greeks also become invigorated and confident. we see them begin to take arms up again and feel motivated to fight against Hector.

as Poseidon rallies the Greeks, the battle becomes even fiercer.

we are shown more brutal images of the war, notably, when Idomeneus kills Othryoneus from the Trojans' side, and taunts his dead body.

Homer reveals to us that Othryoneus had participated in the war so that he could marry Priam's daughter, Cassandra.. when he is killed by Idomeneus, Idomeneus says:

"We too will make you an offer; we will give you the loveliest daughter of the son of Atreus, if you will sack the goodly city of Ilium... So come along with me, that we may make a covenant at the ships about the marriage..."

Idomeneus doesn't say anything particularly cruel, but the imagery of him taunting Othryoneus' corpse while dragging it across the field paints a very morbid and depressing scene.

in this way, Homer is able to provide insight to the audience about the different aspects of war; motivations for fighting, and the darker side of battle.

last thing from Book 13- Menelaus' potent question:

"Cowardly she-wolves that you are, you feared not the anger of dread Zeus, avenger of violated hospitality, who will one day destroy your city. You stole my wedded wife and wickedly carried off much treasure when you were her guest... O father Zeus... how can you thus favour the Trojans...?"

two interesting things here: 1) the metaphor of "cowardly she-wolves", and 2) Zeus as an avenger of violated hospitality.

the metaphor is curious to me because wolves, typically, are not portrayed as cowardly animals.. they are hunters, stealthy, agile. one might say that because they are related to dogs, they also represent loyalty, perseverance and courage.

but here, Menelaus calls the Trojans "cowardly she-wolves". it could simply be that, by identifying the men with the female form of a wolf, he means to degrade the Trojans. but personally, i don't find it very effective-- in a lot of mythologies, she-wolves are protectors, and aren't really weak. the best example of this is in roman mythology where Romulus and Remus are raised by a she-wolf.

now,, i actually think that when Menelaus says "cowardly she-wolves", he calls the Trojans a "she-wolf" because, like a she-wolf protecting her pups, the Trojans are so avidly defending Troy, and by that fact, are defending Paris. and in this way, they are cowardly- because Paris has committed a sin.. he has violated the sacred laws of hospitality (xenia) and stolen from Menelaus. but the Trojans aren't ready to let Paris pay for his crimes. hence, cowardly she-wolves.

now, the invocation of Zeus as an avenger of violated hospitality is interesting to me. we know that xenia was one of Zeus' holy laws.. but,, it's weird to me that this should be the case, because Zeus himself doesn't always adhere to this rule-- Paris abuses Menelaus' generosity as his guest, but Zeus doesn't interfere at that point. in fact, by mediating the contest that got Paris into this mess to start with, Zeus has sort of consented to the idea that Paris should go to Greece, and take Menelaus' wife from him.

Zeus only gets really involved after Thetis begs him to intercede on Achilles' behalf. that's it. it has nothing to do with xenia.

i suppose this passage is just another reminder of how mortals really don't know what goes on in the minds of the gods. Menelaus is here praying for Zeus to serve justice, but Zeus isn't interested in that :/

anyhow, moving on to Book 14.

this book is pretty important in that we get the famous scene of Hera bewitching Zeus so that Poseidon has a little bit more time on the battlefield to help the Achaeans out.

i honesty don't have much to say except that i can't stop laughing at what Zeus says to Hera when she greets him looking all gorgeous:

"Never yet have I been so overpowered by passion neither for goddess nor mortal woman as I am at this moment for yourself- not even when I was in love with the wife of Ixion... nor yet with Danae... Then there was Semele, and Alcmena... There was queen Demeter again, and lovely Leto, and yourself- but with none of these was I ever so much enamoured as I now am with you."

ah yes, Zeus, nothing tells your wife that she's looking Good™ quite like listing out all your previous wives, exes and side affairs. how to keep your marriage happy: hot tips with Zeus 101

anyways.. back to the story. as Zeus is distracted by his long list of past lovers, Hector takes a turn for the worse as the favour of Zeus leaves him and he gets absolutely crushed by a rock hurled by Ajax.

in many ways, Hector is the representative of Troy- and i mean this in a symbolic way-- when Hector is bright and confident, and winning the war, Troy is winning the war. but when he gets injured, we know that bad things are going to happen to Troy.

this sounds obvious, but it's not the same for the Achaeans- on the Achaeans side, if something were to happen to Agamemnon, or Menelaus, it wouldn't be clear that the Achaeans were on the losing side. when Hector dies (spoilers aha!), we KNOW that this is the end for Troy.

in the same way, when Hector gets injured so brutally, it becomes apparent that Troy cannot win this war without Zeus' favour.

in Book 15, Hector is saved by Apollo at Zeus' behest, and Poseidon withdraws from the war.

as we could predict, Hector being healed and returning to the battle as fierce as ever is a signal that Zeus is back in the game, and is watching over the war.

that's it for now. in the next book, Book 16, we rejoin Patroclus and Achilles at the ships.. and this is where the fun begins >:)

[ofachilleus]

2, 13, 15 for modern au!

1. how is their social media presence?

picture of patroclus, picture of his own abs, picture of him and patroclus on holiday, throwback picture of him winning sports game at uni, picture of wild party, another picture of patroclus, thirst trap picture at the beach, thirst trap picture at the gym, another bloody picture of patroclus 

13. show us what their last ‘sent’ text message is from five different text convos.

helen 👑: i have to go to some charity gala next week and P is busyhelen 👑: be my date? i love to see straight men get upset

light of my life 🍆: your dogs are crying and i dont know how to make them stop babylight of my life 🍆: i tried showing them a cute pic of you on my phone and it didn’t worklight of my life 🍆: pls come home!! help!!

menelaus: what happened to bros before hoesmenelaus: i know you’re at helen’smenelaus: im watching the game without you and next time i hang out with her im gonna tell her about the time we got drunk in spain and i had to talk u out of getting her name tattooed on your arm

mum: if patroclus isn’t invited to the birthday dinner at your place then i’m not coming either, sorrymum: package deal, we’ve discussed this

penthesilea: new phone, who dis?

15. what does their diet look like?

tightly maintained diet made for him by a very expensive nutritionist designed to keep him looking as much like a greek god as possible. cheat days involve an intense amount of alcohol, and fig pastries.

[kashuan]

modern adaptations of the Iliad try so hard to be Progressive and Feminist (because we're Enlightened unlike them Greeks) and yet somehow manage to make their female character MORE sexist than the original. Both Helen in Troy and the BBC series and Thetis in TSOA.

Yep, absolutely. With Helen, because a lot of adapters try to sell the whole ‘she gave up everything for ~love~’ angle, they are sort of artificially making her a ‘strong’ character since this supposedly defies what our concept of ancient marriages were and is meant to show us how unique and independent she is. (honestly, I had such a laugh at her BBC dialogue that I guess was supposed to be this Empowering moment when she was talking about why she made that choice to leave Menelaus: “I am a woman - I think, I feel.” like have u ever seen anything so obviously written by a straight white dude? groundbreaking dialogue there, writing that’s really in league with one of the most renowned classics). Meanwhile in canon we know Helen already had agency in choosing her husband. it’s like if you guys had actually spent 2 minutes reading up on the source you’d see they already did what you were going for, except like, not stupid.Plus, I feel like several adaptions just spend too much time showing off how Hot Helen is since it’s her most famous quality, usually through some irrelevant sex scene (the worst example of this though is in the Helen of Troy 2003 movie which included a utterly baffling scene where she walked through a crowd of men completely naked supposedly because Menelaus wanted to make some kind of point– was the point that modern screenwriters think movies can’t sell without a scene that has a naked chick???) Meanwhile like, yeah the actual iliad tells us she was beautiful, but actually barely spends any time describing her physical appearance. The majority of Helen’s scenes are spent on her thoughts and feelings. Imagine that???Thetis in TSOA is just horrible bc afair she’s mostly just used as a prop to be an obstacle in the way of that sweet achilles/pat yaoiz. To some extent, Helen often also gets a version of this treatment– a lot of adapters seem to think the way to go with an Iliad adaption is to focus on the Helen/Paris romance, but Helen is often so flat and unrelatable that she also comes off as little more than a prop to move the story along herself. Unfourtunate tbh that it’s been 3000 years and we haven’t only not learned how to do better– we’ve gotten substantially worse.

[foccaccia]

so we read the iliad in literature this year and one thing has always bugged me since i was a kid and read kids versions of these stories.....

why didn’t paris choose athena

like... ok maybe aphrodite was objectively prettier but seriously boi

athena gives u victory in battle. u go fight menelaus and take helen. u go fight everyone and get power. troy doesn’t fall, 2884499990002 people don't die. you get everything. 

instead you continued to be a little bitch

like always

u bitch

[menelaiad]

Do you think Agamemnon killed Thyestes?

i personally dont vibe with that narrative.

tbf we don't actually have a lot that tells us what happened to thyestes??? he and aegisthus disappear until aegisthus comes back and we know what happens there (YIKES).

the only thing we have is from apollodorus, who says that:

Not long afterwards Tyndareus brought them back again, and they drove away Thyestes to dwell in Cytheria, after that they had taken an oath of him at the altar of Hera, to which he had fled.

so he clearly went for some sort of sanctuary from hera?? and the brothers werent stupid enough to kill him at an altar of a god lmaoo.

but they COULD have dragged him out and killed him?? but they didnt. they just made him swear an oath (we dont know this oath?? maybe like. dont come back, clown) and sent him away. and i adhere to this narrative because i think it fits???

why would aga (and menelaus if u wanna include him but aga was the big cheese here) kill thyestes and not aeg??? even before the cly thing aeg is the one who killed atreus. YES thyestes got the throne and exiled them, but in terms of avenging their dad and getting one back - he should have killed aeg. so with aeg being kept alive, it stands to reason that thyestes was to. yeah he didnt like either of them lbr. but it doesnt make sense to kill thyestes and spare aeg?? it should be both, neither or actually thyestes left alive. the one who did them more dirty was aeg.

ALSO. i think its a very interesting act of mercy from agamemnon that gets overlooked a lot. aga, by ancient greek standards, would have been in his right to kill them both. avenge his father. reclaim his lost inheritance etc etc. that wouldnt have been a stain on his reputation in those days - but he didn't. he's oddly merciful. he doesnt behave like atreus (or even thyestes himself tbh) would have in that moment and thats very telling about him as a character, a man and a leader. perhaps you can read it as an act of weakness as well. but thinking about the family he comes from?? idk. it seems very deliberate that he's not ..... continuing the family violence here. it's an example of aga desperately chipping away at the cycle, tryna be the one to break it but is never able to in the end.

it's also very tragic in the sense that in this act of mercy, this almost act of kindness on his part, he partially sets up his own death years into the future. because he doesn't kill thyestes or aeg and aeg is able to come back and help in his downfall (yeah only like 20% help. the man is useless but damn he's pretty)

so no. i dont personally. but those are just my takes on why and also the one account of what actually does happen to thyestes.

[menelaiad]

I crave the thoughts on Areope .u.

AEROPE to me IS A COMPLEX LADY.

do i think she was a bad woman? no. a bad mother? no. but there are certainly aspects to her story/character that show she wasn't perfect. she probably didn't dote on her sons, she may not have even wanted to be a mother when she become one, but again, i don't think she was neglectful, distant or abusive or Anything like that. she was just a woman who's life went in a way she didn't expect or plan for. and she kinda ....... not resented her life but ........ was always searching for the life she actually wanted.

due to a translation ICK in sophocles' ajax we get two different glimpses into aerope's wife. she either

slept with a slave man. was meant to be killed by being thrown into the sea. escaped. .... met atreus and married him.

[there is also another version of events here were one of catreus' children is prophesised to kill him so he tells them all to fuck off. so she leaves .... meets atreus this way????]

OR she simply met atreus normally. slept with thyestes (and helpt him become king) all was revealed and then she was killed by atreus by being thrown into the sea.

bUT LIKE. both work??? her story has such a sad beginning and such a sad end and if you do combine the two then like .... she couldn't escape her fate either??? destined to die by a man's hand to the sea. and .... that happened. never REALLY escaped her fate??? yknow???

BUT she strikes me as a woman who goes into the world and just. gets what she wants. or desperately tries to! she slept with a slave which you weren't supposed to do back then, but she wanted to. so she did. she managed to escape her death simply because she didn't wanna die. YES she married atreus (for power? we dont know. some say she was sold to him???) but she was clearly pining for thyestes cause she wanted him and went and got him??? like. even in these few, fleeting glimpses we have of her, you can see were aga gets his determined 'i want it. i will get it' attitude.

menelaus, agamemnon and anaxibia were born when the affair happened. and if we look at seneca's thyestes the affair was going on for a while because atreus (in his madness) thinks menelaus and aga are thysetes and aerope's sons. and they're like??? 10??? here??? so. thyestes and aerope have been together a while. again, putting this thought in my head that she'd rather be with thyestes. THIS is the relationship she pursues.

[in some traditions it is also stated that the children at the feast of thyestes were his sons by aerope. and this was atreus' revenge. so. damn.]

we also get the golden lamb event! in which when she is MARRIED TO ATREUS (SHE CAN BECOME QUEEN HERE) she HELPS THYESTES BECOMES KING. this woman. does not give a FUCK.

and this is what makes me circle back. i cannot say if she HATED atreus or if she hated the children she bore from him. but a woman that strong willed. and that in love with another man (basically SDFGHJ) i feel like she would be distant. these children wouldn't necessarily be her .... world. she had other things going on. aGAIN. not neglectful, not abuse, not mean. just distant. more unemotional than emotional. but not a bad mother. motherhood maybe was never on the cards for her and she was a woman who had children and knew what she had to do, even if it wasn't necessarily what she wanted.

i would never put her in the same field as atreus. at all. i think she would have loved her boys. and she would not have let anything happen to them, that she could control (atreus was fucking insane and she's not stupid). she had these three children and she knew what she had to do to keep them alive and safe. and she did that. as best as she could without rocking the boat too much, i feel. cause she was already rocking the boat with thyestes. her mind and her heart was there. i feel.

aerope. just strikes me as a woman who loves the thrill of life. and. living.

[menelaiad]

Duududuududude

Did Agamemnon and Menelaus ever saw Pelopia as a mother figure? When did they get to know who were Aegisthus' real parents? Do you think they could have assumed at some point that Thyestes killed Pelopia?

If they did, those two were just permanently motherless :[[

OHH THAT'S SOME GOOD STUFF TO CHEW ON.

i dont think so?? personally. and i'll explain why, if i may. for starters, pelopia was probably a similar age if not the same age as agamemnon (maybe not menelaus. but agamemnon!) so i don't think they would have seen her as a mother, but Also, they knew their actual mother and they would have been aware of the politics of the time. their rich powerful king father marrying a young beautiful woman ... that's just how it was. y'know? she was never meant to be their mother. atreus never really intended her to be. so i don't think that would have been pushed tbh.

also. they're old when pelopia comes into the fray with aegisthus. and we can kinda infer this because the first time thyestes comes to mycenea (so FOR the feast, before aegisthus is even born) its menelaus and aga who are sent to get him. giving them a sense of responsibility, meaning that aga at least had to be quite old. (its probably good to vibe that when pelopia rocks up aga is like 15??? and menelaus around 13???) in ancient greece/homeric greece, they're practically men. they wouldn't have needed a mother at that point tbh.

i think they would have known aeg's real dad. because ofc aeg kills atreus and then thyestes takes the throne and aga and menelaus were banished ........ i cant imagine thyestes would do that without bragging, gloating about Everything lmaoooo

mAYBE he took .... 'credit' if you will for pelopia (they would have known about her death. no source indicates her body was hidden etc.) or maybe he would have blamed aeg?? ORRR because this is the HOA and its Fucked - he spoke the truth. he spoke of pelopia and everything that happened (but ofc according the aeschylus .... none of this happens lmaoo aegisthus is just a child that survives the feast. he's not a product of incest)

i think though. it's pretty obvious in these two characters that they are ...... deprived of Good parents or parents in general. yknow? menelaus throws himself head first into being a parent. so much so he's almost driven to murder??? he PRAYS for a child. aga?? aga's children adore him. and that's the same thing. he will Not let them feel how he felt. [these two are all about breaking the cycle and whilst menelaus does. aga cannot. but u cant really deny aga tries.].

i think aerope was there to an extent. but i have my own thoughts on her ASDFGHJK

[menelaiad]

SO xanthos means yellow. and if we just had the iliad to go from, menelaus would be blond. HOWEVER the colour spectrum in ancient times is bullshit and different all the time anyway (so take aLL of it with a pinch of salt, especially in a modern context) bUT yellow bile is also described as xanthos by galen (so we have a consistent use for it there) and aristotle says its the colour between green and red (its here that it might get a brown/orange tinge BUT primarily yellow)

as time goes on, some writers also describe things like lions, nuts and FIRE as xanthos. thus its here we start to get the tawny kinda auburny … reddish associations. but you can't deny that there can be yellow hues to these items. they're not as yellow as like fuckin lemons. but xanthos still kinda works. BUT IT'S because of this the red hair is a translation thing not really a homer thing. as a modern translator, we see a word being used to describe nuts and lions and fire as slightly more .... reddish than yellowish.

SO when menelaus is a key player in book 4 some translators gave him his own character and features and translated xanthos as red. or flaming. basically just trying to give it some zest. menelaus also has the epithet radient. which a lotta people link to the sun, fire - red.

interestingly there are instances of the sun being xanthos. as an ancient audience … thats just bright and yellow. to a modern audience, we know the sun is fire and perhaps perhaps giving him orange or red would be closer linked to that. giving him red hair again.

theres also that desire to make achilles/the hero unique. the blond demigod. the beautiful youth. so its not good if someone else looks like him. he's Not Like Other Girls so menelaus can still be fair haired BUT not blond. more red.

basically. the greeks did not have words for hair colours (like blond, brunette. they just had colours like brown and yellow) and we have adapted these base colours to fit the modern hair colours we use today. there is a case for achilles being sexy and blond tbh. but it all comes from translation and the version of xanthos you want to use. ancient colour spectrums are murky as HELL. lookin' at u wine dark sea.

xanthos does not mean ginger.

[kashuan]

In which I finally write a long ass post about all my grievances with the never ending shenanigans I see in the Iliad tag because I can’t take it anymore and needed to get it out tbh

Things y’all really need to stop doing, in no particular order: • Treating Clytemnestra like a Bad Bitch Feminist Icon #goals because she killed a character you don’t like. Know what she also was? Pretty hypocritical. Half her motive for killing Agamemnon is the mistreatment of their daughter, but guess what, Clytemnestra then goes on to treat 2/3 of her remaining children pretty much like shit. I suppose you could consider Electra to be an unreliable narrator in terms of her relating how coldly she was treated at home, but the facts don’t lie in that Cly let her new hubby Aegisthus pass Electra off to be married to some peasant so that she and her children would die without any power and wouldn’t be able to take revenge. It’s pretty indisputable though that her treatment of her son Orestes was flat out terrible. As a child, Orestes has to go into exile, as it’s implied Aegisthus would have had him killed otherwise. Cly just Lets This Happen. When Orestes returns to murder both her and Aegisthus as instructed by Apollo, Clytemnestra entreats him with a set of pretty flimsy excuses. Here’s a part from The Libation Bearers:

CLYTAEMESTRA Have you no regard for a parent's curse, my son?

ORESTES You brought me to birth and yet you cast me out to misery.

CLYTAEMESTRA No, surely I did not cast you out in sending you to the house of an ally.

ORESTES I was sold in disgrace, though I was born of a free father. CLYTAEMESTRA Then where is the price I got for you? ORESTES I am ashamed to reproach you with that outright.

Furthermore, she attempts to manipulate Orestes by entreating him to spare her because she is his mother, the one who nursed him, yet we know that this wasn’t actually done by her, and since a young age she has been completely absent in his life otherwise. When Orestes finally does kill her, this girl cannot even let it go at that but essentially makes sure he’s haunted by demons for the rest of his life. Talk about #petty, not even Agamemnon took it that far. So this character who's set up as like Badass Mama Bear is actually….not. Post Iphigenia at Aulis Clytemnestra is actually pretty self-serving, but not in the sort of way that should be admired. I think Clytemnestra is a great flawed character. Please no more ‘my perfect queen deserved better’ posts. I’m beggin’ ya. Read more than a summary of like 1/4th of her history and then let’s talk. • So I’m gonna follow this up with my long stewing Agamemnon Apologist rant (you: yikes me: Buckle Up). I’d like to begin this by saying we can all definitely agree that this man is a garbageboy stinkman. No arguing that. I love a good ‘Agamemnon is an asshole’ joke as much as the next guy. HOWEVER, when, when will I be free from posts that act like this character is honestly so completely one dimensional, that jokes about it comprise literally 98% of the tag. Where are the actually interesting meta posts that consider things about him beyond JUST being a dumpster of a man. For example, we know he was at least a half-decent bro. In book 4 of the Iliad, Menelaus basically scrapes his knee and Agamemnon essentially calls a T.O. on the entire war because HIS BROTHER, OK!!! Like yeah, he also includes a hilariously selfish line in that part that Menelaus can’t bite it because then he will be disgraced when he goes home, but the point stands. Further evidence of these having a tight relationship can be found in the Iphigenia at Aulis play. After the two of them have had a savage as hell argument about whether or not to sacrifice Iphigenia, taking some serious pot shots at each other, they have this exchange

MENELAUS I’ve changed, and I’ve changed because I love you, brother. I’ve changed because of my love for my mother’s son.  It’s a natural thing for men with decent hearts to do the decent thing. AGAMEMNON I praise you, Menelaus for these unexpected words, proper words, words truly worthy of you.  Brothers fight because of lust and because of greed in their inheritance. I hate such relationships; they bring bitter pain to all.

 I think Agamemnon’s relationship with Menelaus is actually one of the more interesting ones among the cast because he is both in a way protective yet also very controlling of his brother. Here and Here are a couple of fantastic essays on their dynamic and the way it differs from source to source. While on the subject of the play Iphigenia at Aulis and my favorite problematic fav getting the short end of the stick from fandom, can I just say that the majority of retellings, posts, and so on about this particular event ARE TERRIBLE? I’m so tired of seeing it depicted as though Agamemnon just killed his daughter like some afterthought, possibly while twirling his mustache like a cartoon villain. There is so, SO much more nuance to that scene and it kills the man when I see how no one ever discusses it in favor of just saying lol Agamemnon’s a dick, so anyway. Iphigenia herself is actually one of the best sources we have for the fact Agamemnon probably had more than a grand total of zero good traits. The relationship between the two is obviously a very close one and on the whole we get the sense that, aside from the whole killing his daughter thing (ya) he was actually a good dad. Like an inverse Clytemnestra :,). The scene where Iphigenia first speaks with Agamemnon is particularly telling of what was probably their normal relationship. IPHIGENIA What’s wrong, daddy?  You say you’re happy to see me but your face looks worried! AGAMEMNON A king, darling, a General is always worried. IPHIGENIA Make your worries go away, daddy. From now on, think only of me. AGAMEMNON Yes, my darling. I shall think of nothing else but you from now on IPHIGENIA Well then, get rid of this ugly frown from the face that I love so much! AGAMEMNON There! Oh, what a joy it is to see you, Iphigeneia! IPHIGENIA But… but look at you, father! Full of joy and yet tears flow from your eyes…AGAMEMNON Yes, dear… because our separation will be a long one.

Is he still a completly awful man for having sacrificed her? Yes. Completely. But here’s a few factors that play into this decision that I never see anyone, ever, mention: -It is Agamemnon’s intention to send Iphigenia away, to save herself, at the last minute, but Menelaus intercepts the letter meant to warn her of her fate. -Charismatic Odysseus has a good deal of control over the soldiers at this point and was probably looking to further increase his popularity among them (a consistent theme-- see: when he’s ready to shank his bff Diomedes just to be the only one to bring home a trophy from Troy instead of both of them). One can imply that if Agamemnon didn’t go through it, he would have done it himself -- and Agamemnon knew that (he mentions as much). -Gods are terrifying, my dudes. Treating it as though he could have just said ‘naw’ to Artemis’ order for Iphigenia’s death and gone home expresses a pretty fundamental lack of understanding how the Greeks feared the gods and just what the stakes likely already were by that point. Artemis was already pissed that he killed one of her sacred deer so it wasn’t as though she was just like ‘you can either sacrifice your daughter or go home unscathed’. I’ve only seen one other retelling accurately capture what very likely would have happened if Agamemnon didn’t go through with it: Artemis likely would have retaliated at the disrespect against the men and probably his family. Furthermore, the soldiers had already been stranded at Aulis for months on end-- a mutiny was exceedingly likely if they found out what was going on, one in which where they probably would have harmed not only him but also Clytemnestra and baby Orestes who came with Iphigenia. These two facts are more conjecture, but it’s a pretty plausible estimate and I’ve seen several scholarly essays arrive at the same conclusion.  If you’d actually like to see a depiction of Agamemnon that is both incredibly sympathetic yet does not shy away either from showing how terrible what he did was, please watch the 1977 Iphigenia movie. One of my favorite movies in general. Honestly I feel I could make a giant essay out of My Feelings on this particular subject alone so I’ll wrap it now because I have a lot of other stuff I want to get to, though I’ll include one final pet peeve: the amount of people who call Agamemnon trash because he was Sexist. You know who else was a Meninist? Every single goddamn man in ancient Greece. Okay, I’ll give a pass to characters like Patroclus and Hector when it comes to the women front because all we see is them being pretty decent. But like. Otherwise??? Sure, just because everyone is that way doesn’t make it any less shitty-- I’m not arguing that. But it’s also like reading a novel focused on an entire group of mobsters, but calling out only one of them as Problematic for being a criminal. Like, my dudes...  TL;DR: Agamemnon is a dick jokes are funny and completely deserved but throw in a few posts here and there that actually suggest you might have read more than just Book 1 of the Iliad and nothing else. Character depth is your friend. • That said, for the love of god, stop writing Menelaus like he’s just Agamemnon 2.0. A lot of adaptions do this because they don’t seem to know what to do with his character (I’m lookin’ @ u most of all Troy though he suffers some form of this in almost all film adaptions...) Which is a shame because Menelaus as a character is a lot more (and better) than that. From what we do know, Menelaus was actually (relatively speaking) a pretty chill guy and one of the least problematic out of these assholes (y’know, minus that scene I mentioned above with Iphigenia, but hey...at least he admits he fucked up?). We know that Helen voluntarily chose him to be her husband. We know that Helen wanted to return home to him by the time the Iliad takes place. We know they got back together after the war and more or less lived happily ever after. So why do I keep seein’ all these posts about Helen hating him or about him being another warmonger like Agamemnon. Menelaus was a Decent Dude. Leave him alone :,| • Speaking of Helen, how many times am I going to read “feminist” retellings where she either is totally indifferent to or even wanted the war to happen, where she enjoys watching men die, where she ~reclaims~ her demigoddess power and is A Figure To Be Feared. What Helen is this??? Because in the Iliad, Helen is remorseful af about all the people she’s indirectly responsible for the deaths of. There are more ways to build up and strengthen female characters than to make them just like the men they despise. Just. Saying. I get that people want to free her from the damsel in distress role she’s essentially relegated to, me too, but that is NOT the way to do it. Girl can be strong willed but still have a great amount of empathy. As with essentially every other bullet point above, please just give these characters more than one dimension. • Also, how many times am I gonna have to read about The One Fellow Female (Helen or Clytemnestra usually) who believes Cassandra’s prophecies in order to emphasize like, girl power, or that the author feels sorry for Cass and want to project that onto some other character or something. Dude, she was cursed not to be believed. PERIOD. BY ANYONE. There was no clause in the curse for like “except someone who really thinks you’re swell”. It’s tragic because there are no exceptions. No one believes her. NO ONE. THE END. • Achilles was bi. Bi af (by modern standards, of course). See: Iphigenia, Deidamia, Briseis, Polyxena, Penthesilea… I totally get this movement of wanting to call Achilles gay because for so long he and Patroclus have gotten the ‘just guys bein’ dudes’ treatment from scholars. I think it’s absolutely fantastic that potential element of his character is more widely recognized and accepted now. However, I can’t help but get these really uncomfy biphobia feels when I read all the posts about how gay he is, as if liking women makes his relationship with Patroclus less legitimate. That was one thing about TSOA which also really disappointed me-- it had to pull that yaoi fanfic trope of ‘girls are so icky and gross’ in order to further sell how convinced you should be of the same sex relationship. It’s just, Bad And Not Good. Finally, I feel like y’all are so busy hating Agamemnon and shoving off every single bad character trait into existence onto him, that Achilles is always ultimately depicted as this #relatable teen who did nothing wrong except get a little too upset when his bf died. May I remind you of just a few things Achilles also did: -Indirectly got a lot of men killed by refusing to fight during his quarrel with Agamemnon -Had 12 innocent children killed when Patroclus died -Basically everything involving Troilus. From wikipedia: [Achilles] is struck by the beauty of both [Polyxena and Troilus] and is filled with lust. It is the fleeing Troilus whom swift-footed Achilles catches, dragging him by the hair from his horse. The young prince refuses to yield to Achilles' sexual attentions and somehow escapes, taking refuge in the nearby temple. But the warrior follows him in, and beheads him at the altar before help can arrive. The murderer then mutilates the boy's body. Some pottery shows Achilles, already having killed Troilus, using his victim's severed head as a weapon as Hector and his companions arrive too late to save him. The mourning of the Trojans at Troilus' death is great. -Just straight up fucking murders a guy for making fun of him after he just murdered someone else. "Achilles, who fell in love with the Amazon [Penthesilea] after her death, slew Thersites for jeering at him" I’m sure there’s more receipts like this. So like. Can we throw in a couple posts now and then among the Agamemnon ones about Achilles, who was Problematic for far more reasons than just sulking in his tent :,) ...Okay. I think that’s it. FOR NOW. I guess I’ll end this by saying half of this is just my own opinion and I recognize that people can interpret and retell these stories and characters however they want to. It’s when it becomes so consistent however that people treat it like it is The One True Canon when it’s actually not that my jimmies get a bit rustled. [/END RANT]

[kashuan]

I’M SO PROUD OF UR REDEMPTION ARC yeah tho man I feel like the entire iliad tag would be a much better place if it could commonly become accepted that just about everyone is in some form or another an asshole (save for helen, cass and andromache). I can’t with that trait getting pushed off (and exaggerated) almost entirely onto agamemnon (and sometimes menelaus) and then in the process everything else that’s interesting about their characters is lost :,| like i said in the original post it’s not like I’m ‘no fun allowed’ with it, some of the jokes are funny but that’s literally ALL I ever see for them and it’s. tiring. same with any discussion about clytemnestra, just in reverse. i wanna hear more people talk about how she is both sympathetic but also far from flawless, and that the whole iphigenia/oresteia storyline is not nearly as Good Person VS Evil Person as people make it seem. same with any posts with achilles and agamemnon. READ PAST BOOK ONE, PEOPLE (i’m sorry but u got me Started again)  headcanons are all fine and good but it worries me that a lot of the newer fans take a lot of this stuff as canon and then we keep getting the same stuff parroted, wash rinse repeat. every time i see someone break out of that mold it adds an extra year to my life tbh, so bless u for these comments. i am glowing.