#Stephanie Brown Critical

[soleminisanction]

I saw somebody describe this as "the Steph panel of all time" and that's definitely right, but probably not for the reason they intended.

Because this is a moment of Stephanie immediately rejecting a boundary that someone tried to set with her (Tim telling her to stop flirting with him again) after she guilt-tripped him into doing something for her that nearly got him shot, all because she assumes that she is just, too inherently special for that rejection to apply to. That she knows his mind and heart better than he does, and that obviously he's into her because why wouldn't he be? She's Steph, and she wants him, and so he MUST want her, she's too hot for him not to.

So she keeps flirting with him and kissing him and turning their random meet-ups in the field into dates even though he's asked her repeatedly not to, and eventually he gives in, saying to himself, "This is what I wanted, I guess" even though he's never thought that and spent literal years of publication telling her otherwise. Because she's made very clear that she'll never take 'no' for an answer, because she wants him, therefore he has to want her, and she can't even picture an alternative.

The Steph panel of all time indeed.

[mzminola]

Bruce sets up an elaborate mindfuck for Tim's birthday in an attempt to make Tim less trusting of even allies, giving him a mental breakdown. Bruce claims this will make Tim a better vigilante.

Tim, upon figuring it out, throws his Robin uniform literally in Bruce's face, cussing him out (like, actually censored swears, which Tim usually doesn't use), and quits. He talks with Steph about how messed up it was, and she empathizes out of her own messed up experiences with Bruce.

An unclear but short time later, probably a few days, Tim un-quits and states to Bruce that he doesn't expect an apology (not because it's unnecessary, but because he knows Bruce).

~

Stephanie returns from presumed death, finds Bruce, and accepts his orders to not reveal herself to everyone else & to take extreme actions to, once again in Bruce's estimate, make Tim a better vigilante.

This includes running around town in her original costume so Tim thinks his dead friend has a copycat, hiring people to attack him, working with a bomber, and even after knocking all that off, not sharing pertinent information about it with Tim, resulting in Tim being caught in an explosion.

Tim yells at Stephanie and says "Don't let me catch you wearing [the Spoiler] costume ever again." When she tracks him down a little later, he refuses to speak with her.

An unclear amount of time later, probably a few months, Tim is willing to work with Stephanie to stop a supervillain plot.

~

Some fans treat Tim's word-choice in the confrontation with Steph as him trying to control her. As him thinking he's got the authority to decide who can and cannot operate as a vigilante, at least in Gotham.

But. Like. One, aside from this one conversation, he takes no actions to stop her. He doesn't steal her gear (like Bruce sometimes steals people's uniform), he doesn't go and tell other people to stop working with her, he doesn't even go snitch to her mom.

Tim just. Tells the friend who got him very badly hurt while mindfucking him that he doesn't want to see her in the field again.

Two, it's a pretty dang similar response to when Bruce mindfucked him in the first example. Tim is the one who insists Batman needs a Robin. And here he is depriving Batman of Robin.

Yet if I tried to claim "Tim quitting Robin is his attempt to control Batman, is Tim acting like he has authority to stop Bruce from being a vigilante" you'd laugh in my face. Because that is a huge leap to make, with convoluted logic, and isn't supported by the rest of the text.

Bruce & Stephanie both screw Tim up really badly.

He confronts them and says he's breaking ties.

Then after a little distance, he goes right back to working with them.

And some people think this is...controlling? Don't get me wrong, Tim has some controlling tendencies, they all do, but it's usually teaming up with Alfred to stop Bruce patrolling while injured, and lying his ass off to everyone so he can do what he wants.

This? Is not that.

[dukeaubergine]

“It’s totally possible that Tim has the biggest kill count of all the Robins because of that time he blew up the League of Assassin bases.”

If that’s the case, then arguably Stephanie has a similar kill count thanks to being the person who deliberately kicked off War Games.

It just depends on how many levels of separation down the chain-of-consequences we’re willing to go.

[fortressofserenity]

Some aptitude to spoil

When it comes to Stephanie Brown, I personally feel writers don’t trust her much to actually get better. Even though in reality, she shouldn’t be. Lest she be called a Mary Sue if she actually gets better, it’s more realistic this way if she does have a valuable ability with sewing and become a decent hand to hand fighter. But that involves actual progress and regard for the character, in the sense that she’s got the skills to back up writers’ attempts at making her win people’s affections.

Batman didn’t have much faith in her, due to being somewhat incompetent. But because she trained under her friend Cassandra Cain, she shouldn’t be so inept given the things she learnt and studied if she bothered to. Her earlier attempts wouldn’t be perfect, but the later ones should be better. I don’t read comics that much, but I do know a thing about sewing. I started sewing in high school, but didn’t do it more frequently until when I was 17 and again in my twenties.

My earlier attempts weren’t good, but they did improve over time the more I sewed. Okay, my later attempts aren’t any better given my sister’s criticisms. But the fact that I learnt from my faults to create a more loose-fitting blouse (coupled with roomier sleeves to boot), as well as bothering to pleat skirts has to do with my willingness to learn and do something new. Not the best, but still better than it was before.

The same can be said of Stephanie Brown’s fighting skills, if she dedicated much of her time learning martial arts from her friend and especially at a young age, that she’d actually get pretty good at it once she became an adult. It wouldn’t make her a Mary Sue, in fact it would make her more believable this way alongside taking her sewing skills more seriously.

She could’ve been valuable to the Batfamily as she’d be the one to mend and create costumes for them, she could even have a decent career at selling garments. But that would mean they really don’t take her that seriously, compared to what’s been done with Harley Quinn and that’s saying.

[lovelylonelymoonlight]

Every Robin After Becoming Robin: omg bruce didn’t replace you!!!! your literally perfect in his eyes. you can do no wrong. and he looks at me and ……. he sees all the ways you were better. he loves you ….. i cant replace you when we dont even compare !

Every Robin When Someone Else Becomes Robin: this mf replaced me

[shyjusticewarrior]

A reminder:

Robins: Dick, Jason, Tim, Steph, Damian

Batboys: Dick, Jason, Tim, Damian, Duke

Batkids: Dick, Barbara, Jason, Tim, Cass, Steph, Damian, Duke

Batsiblings: Dick, Jason, Tim, Damian, Cass, Duke

[muirann]

all comic fans know how to do is: develop superiority complexes based on their personal perceptions of a character, eat hot chip, and lie

[bitterrobin]

you, batman/batfamily fan, can you be normal about parents and their flaws without making them exaggerated abusers?

can you absorb the fact that Jack and Janet Drake were not perfect parents, but they still loved Tim? and that Tim loved them enough that he tried to tear a razor sharp boomerang out of his father's corpse with his bare hands? that the Drakes were not millionaires who forced high society values onto their son for the sake of a public image? (that they weren't even rich for that long of a time?)

can you be normal about how the deep recesses of poverty affect a family unit while allowing a parent nuance? can you write Willis Todd without making him a classist caricature of an abuser? can you write Catherine Todd and Crystal Brown without portraying their drug addictions as fodder for their children's whump? (I added in Crystal bc she canonically suffered from drug addiction, but I haven't seen much of her in fics tbh)

can you accept that as much an abuser David Cain was, he still loved Cassandra enough that he utterly fell apart when she left him? That he was genuinely astonished/proud of her when she spoke to him for the first time even as she threatened him? he still sucks majorly, but you can't deny that he loved her. that's what makes their relationship so painful.

can you be normal about Talia al Ghul? can you write her without making her an ooc rapist or child abuser or cold dragon lady? can you acknowledge that every ounce of her characterization surrounding Damian is vastly different from her original pre-Morrison personality to the extent that og Talia would never even have a child in the League?

can you pick apart when a parents portrayal is out of character, that a writer made them hit or neglect their child because above all else they exist for drama and action? that you can find DC characters who actually had traumatic childhoods instead of grafting them onto a Bat-character? (> this last sentence is mostly about Tim btw)

Exploring a character's parents and how they affected them is always interesting, but I've seen fics that genuinely steer towards character assassination rather than an exploration of events written in the comics. They exaggerate a parent's portrayal not to write about a complicated parent-child dynamic but so they can have Bruce or Jason rushing in to comfort them (yes, this is about the Tim Drake shrimp fic). Idk, I think most of my ire just stems from the fact that content about Mia Dearden or Todd Rice or Grant Emerson aren't widespread, Mia specifically always gets explored in Bat-circles as someone that just adds to Jason's character rather than analyzing her on her own, in addition to the constant hell that Talia goes through in both canon and fanon.

[mommytimmy]

love my bisexual queens

[snakeredbirdbatkatana]

Soooooooooo I'm gonna rant just a bit.

I love Dick Grayson he is the most badass of birds, the OG he is fucking Nightwing.

Now I love happy family ok I do but we need perspective here people if you are gonna have Dick pick sides or put other people in front I need you to read a comic cause this is what people seem to think about Dick and it's driving me batshit. (Pun Intended)

That Dick would choose Jason, Stephanie, and Cass, over Tim and Damian.

Loud very Loud Deafning Buzzer noise.

That is incorrect.

Do not pass Go! Do not collect two hundred!

If Dick decided it was Fuck the Bats O'Clock he is not taking Stephanie and poor little Jason and leaving Tim or Damain out to dry. He would never choose Cass over Tim. Just like Tim would never take Cass over Dick.

If you want to have Dick leave the bats or some other shit he decides to take a vacation he would not refuse to tell Damian and instead tell Stephanie Brown. What no what where did this come from.

He would not ignore Tim's phone call but always answer Jason's.

He would answer Tim or Damain no matter how annoying those two are.

He would not tell Tim to be nice to Jason cause he's a sad wet cat.

He would not rather hang out with Stephanie Brown over Damian.

He would not get in TimSteph's drama and than berate Tim.

It's like we forgot the plot of the movie.

You want to have Dick be this perfect big brother figure that ok I love that but don't be having him pick other people over his people.

Tim is Dick Grayson's little Brother Tim loves Dick he is Nightwing's number one fan.

Number 2 is Damain Wayne.

Damian is Dick's Brother sometimes even practically his kid.

Just like Bruce is not picking Jason over Dick.

Dick is the winner for everything everyone would not kick him off the island but he would Kick everyone off the island for Tim and Damian.

So in conclusion Dick loves Tim and Damian he also loves Jason but if Jason is gonna attempt to kill Damian or Tim. Well he killed a man who used to call himself the Red Hood once.

He also likes Stephanie Brown but she's not his bestie they aren't leaving Damian and Tim so they can go hang out or whatever.

If you want to write that go for it but don't you dare say that's cannon. Dick Grayson has put up with way to much bullshit caused by those two for this slander.

I love Jason he's one of my favs I also love Stephanie I am absolutely in love with Cass they are all awesome but they aren't the Dick Grayson Fan club founders.

[soleminisanction]

Do you think Tim would have been more angry at Steph for starting the war games if she survived/didn’t fake her death? Or do you think the fact that she tried to fix it in the end would absolve her of that blame a little bit in his eyes?

I always love your analysis btw! Thanks for sharing your thoughts with the world

That's a good question. An interesting complication to the answer being: does canon Tim even know that Steph was responsible for for starting the War Games?

It can be hard to tell because certain people muddled the waters a lot (cough Brian Q Miller cough no-nothing wiki writers cough cough) but near as I've been able to glean from reading the comics, so far as most people in-universe were concerned, the blame for the War Games gang war fell on Batman's shoulders. There was a big publicity campaign during the War Crimes arc that followed that outed Steph as the girl Robin, but it painted her as a martyr and laid all the blame at Batman's feet.

Near as I could tell, the only people who actually knew Steph was involved with causing the war were Bruce, Selina, Black Mask, and Cass; and Bruce also blamed himself. The only person who ever really held Steph responsible was Cass.

So the question is, was Tim only not upset because he didn't know about Steph's involvement? Personally, I like to think that, if Steph had lived/not faked her death, she would've been open about her part, and that she'd continue the arc she showed in War Games of newfound awareness and understanding of how her actions affect others.

And if she did that, I think Tim wouldn't be angry. Hurt, yes. I think the whole mess of emotions surrounding those days, especially the fact that she became Robin in part to deliberately hurt him, would irrevocably damage their relationship to the point where they couldn't date anymore, and they'd need to spend some time apart. Tim would go off to Bludhaven with Cass after his dad dies, and Steph would go... somewhere else, away from Gotham, maybe with her mom, to recover and figure out her own way to move on after everything.

But the parting, I like to think, would be more sad than angry, a mix of remorse and hurt and being glad they're both alive and just... knowing they can't be around each other right now. That they won't be able to stand doing that again for a while.

Eventually, after a few months or years, they might get back to a point where they've worked through the grief and trauma enough to be friends again. And it'll be a different relationship than they had before, but it'd still be good. Or maybe they'd just stay apart from each other and live their own lives. You never know.

So yeah, bit of a ramble, but that's how I figure it'd work. Steph really does show her best character during War Games so I'm inclined to say that people who met her in the immediate aftermath, especially people who knew her before and could see how she'd changed, would give her the benefit of the doubt.

[mzminola]

Considering Steph’s death in War Games is the first in the conga line of Tim Losing People, I think you could wind up with a really mean AU where Tim blames both himself and Stephanie for several of them, by having Tim get shot protecting Darla, so he’s out of commission during them.

Jack? Less angsty version: Tim is still in the hospital. More angsty version: Tim is home, and Jack logically assumes Tim is the target and dies protecting him.

Kon? Tim’s not back in the field yet (maybe not ever), but is helping out during the crisis by running comms so hears it all go down.

Dana? Tim is convinced he could have prevented the Bludhaven bombing if he’d been more involved in investigating/fighting the villains.

Tim takes on a way too much responsibility, and Steph takes on way too little. An AU where she’s alive and he’s knocked out of commission by her actions makes that a recipe for so much hurt.

(On a happier note, you could easily have Cass decide not to go on her Mom Quest, because Gotham/Bludhaven/etc needs her, and she winds up joining the Titans when shit hits the fan. So we can just entirely circumvent the Evil Cass Arc.)

[fortressofserenity]

Not trusting their characters

I feel with Stephanie Brown, we have a symptom of writers who don’t trust the characters they write. In Stephanie’s case, she shouldn’t be portrayed as incompetent later on. Especially if she’s been training under her friend Cassandra Cain for so long and often that she ought to remember to do something in a given situation, but that involves portraying her as smarter or at least wiser than they’d realise.

I think I remember a statement by someone on Comic Vine that there’s a tinge of sexism in Stephanie Brown’s portrayal, which if this is true, then there’s a frightening chance that there’s a misogynistic streak to the way she’s portrayed. In the sense of being always portrayed as incompetent when she shouldn’t be at this point in time, like as if they always see her as a kind of dumb blonde. Not that Harley Quinn’s entirely any better.

But to my knowledge, she’s never portrayed as highly incompetent. Though that would mean more people actually respect and trust Harley Quinn’s potential as a character, moreso than they do with Stephanie Brown despite being a heroine. Perhaps it’s not a surprise that Quinn got a television series that lasted for as long as it did, while Stephanie’s own magazine title didn’t last that long which says a lot about actually caring about the character.

I’m not saying she’s completely bad, but that writers don’t seem to put much effort in portraying her as having any real progress. Or at least any real regard for how might Stephanie has progressed under Batman and Cassandra Cain, given she spent so much time around them that realistically she shouldn’t be this incompetent. Either that, or quite pessimistically writers treat her as a perpetual dumb blonde which they hardly do with Harley.

Well nowhere to the same extent, in terms of aptitude, which makes me think though they kind of like her they don’t really respect her much. Despite the tags, I don’t really hate the character. But they should do her right, in the sense of actually making her competent given the time she took to hone her skills.

[zeynyukine3011]

I feel like a character's death is no longer impactful in comics. Because they just.... come back.

Yeah, I like the characters I love come back when they die but it just lowers the importance and impact of death. You just don't care anymore because you know they will turn up alive sooner or later.

The whole concept of death is becoming a fashion, a trend.

"Hey, I died in this chapter!"

"So what? Everyone died before, you'll be fine."

-

"I had my first death, isn't it so cool?"

"Congratulations on your first death pal."

No wonder fandom is making fun of Jason's death in recent run this much.

Jason so far has died twice and came back twice.

Damian has died five times and came back five times.

Stephanie died, Bruce died, Clark died, Barry died and lots of characters died. Yeah.

I'm pretty sure Alfred will be resurrected 🤷‍♀️

[shyjusticewarrior]

The thing about people calling Tim boring is they're not coming to that conclusion by looking at him, but by looking at the other Robins and assuming that.

They look at them like:

Dick - the og Robin, origin story parallels Batman

Jason - died, came back to life, started killing

Steph - they don't acknowledge girls actually

Damian - blood son and heir to the demon

Tim - not those things therefore assumed boring

[living-la-vida-lesbian]

every time someone talks about all of the robins without including steph and duke an angel loses its wings