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rigelmejo · 27 days ago

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Things I'm interested in comparing:

Thanks to finding r/DreamingSpanish on reddit, people have shared their progress over X hours on learning Spanish through an ALG method. So one can check and see when some people started speaking (300 hours to 1500, along with some outliers), and speaking comfortably (800 hours to 2000, along with some outliers). Comprehensible Thai (youtube) has shared in their recommendations to their learners, to not try to start speaking until it comes 'on it's own' around 1000 hours (so one could perhaps guess Thai progress might be: starting to speak 1000-2000 hours, starting to be comfortable speaking 2000-3000 hours?). Dreaming Spanish is easier to gauge learner progress in hitting milestones of language ability, since learners both have a detailed roadmap of what language ability they should have at each X hundred hours AND many DS learners tend to share their in-progress experiences. Searching r/DreamingSpanish with "progress" shows these. (Thank you all Dreaming Spanish learners! You are really awesome, tons of people appreciate seeing your progress and experience and opinions on the process!). Any learner using only comprehensible input lessons and material for native speakers eventually (once they understand the main idea), would also roughly fall into this category of experiences (although ALG method has certain expectations in HOW a learner thinks, that a Comprehensible Input lesson user who guesses a lot of translation meanings is not aligning with, so there are some significant differences...).

An interesting semi-related experience, was the person who wrote the paper about learning French entirely from watching French shows and no word lookups: he did NOT do ALG as the material he watched was NOT 90%+ comprehensible to him for a while, he actively tried to determine equivalent english meanings to french words and tried to puzzle out the grammar. And yet, surprisingly, he started speaking around 1200 hours (within when a Dreaming Spanish ALG learner also would according to the roadmap guide), and he passed a B2 test after 1500 hours (which is when the Dreaming Spanish ALG learner should also be roughly B2). This is interesting to me, and indicates that to some degree, whether you intentionally 'try to figure out the meaning of words/grammar' or just 'try to understand the general main idea conveyed without thinking specifically about language' you will still have the same progress in the end. So that could be a comfort: if you're an ALG classes taker, a Dreaming Spanish learner, or using some other Comprehensible Input classes, you should see good progress whether you intentionally think about the language meaning or not.

(I have a personal theory, that 'just thinking about main idea' works speedily in a situation where lessons are DESIGNED to be understood by total beginners - as in ALG lessons like Dreaming Spanish, Comprehensible Japanese, Learn Korean in Korean, Comprehensible Input French, etc, BUT if you just start trying to watch normal television shows in a new language then failing to try to figure out grammar and vocabulary specifically may make progress slow or nonexistent. The guy who learned French from TV did not watch comprehensible input lessons made for beginners, he didn't even watch children's cartoons - which are more understandable visually - for a few hundred hours. He may have made no early progress if he hadn't been trying to figure out the language while watching those difficult shows, and even the kids cartoons where he made the most progress - he often replayed every line multiple times and rewatched cartoons multiple times to break down the cartoons into something he could figure out the meaning of as much as possible. So my personal guess is... if you try to 'immerse' to learn a language, either use materials MADE FOR LEARNERS for the first 300-500 hours like Dreaming Spanish, Comprehensible Thai, equivalent type materials, OR you probably need to try visual-context shows for children and put in effort trying to figure out the meaning of words/sentences you hear for a while.)

It's also relatively achievable to find people sharing their progress when doing Mass Immersion Approach (now called Refold if you got into it in recent years or through Matt vs Japan). But to be generous here, if a learner is studying with both SRS flashcards to learn words in sentences (like anki, memrise, Wanikani, Clozemaster, Pleco flashcards etc), and by immersing in content for native speakers and looking up key words for understanding the main idea of that content (anywhere from barely any word lookups to looking up every single unknown word), then their study experiences are similar to the Mass Immersion Approach. There are some people who did MIA/Refold who've shared how many hours it took them of study to read, to start speaking, to confidently speak, and how many anki study hours and hours of immersing in content for native speakers to see progress milestones. Searching r/Refold with "progress" shows some results. Here's some Progress at 500 hours of input (B1 level, has been speaking a little bit, progress seems similar to DS hours - which makes sense given this person is studying French, and may not be counting flashcard study time, although to be fair... perhaps MIA is a bit faster progress?). I am seeing some similar results to what's expected after pure immersion: MIA learners of languages similar to their own tend to see some big improvements comprehension of content for native speakers around 500-600 hours, and start speaking around then or up to 1000 hours after. MIA learners of languages very different from their own (like an English speaker learning Japanese or Chinese) tend to see a big improvement in comprehension of content for native speakers around 1000-2000 hours and then start trying to speak 500-1000 hours later.

Sort of interesting to also compare, is FSI estimates languages like Spanish taking 750 hours for english speakers to learn PLUS 2-3 hours for each class hour. This would result in 1500-2250 hours to roughly B2 fluency if you take classes in a language along with 2-3 hours of self study and/or immersion per class hour. The 1500-2250 hours it's estimated to take is actually fairly close to DreamingSpanish learner's progress, and MIA/Refold learner's progress. For English speakers learning Japanese or Chinese, it's estimated to take 2200 hours PLUS 2-3 hours of self study per class hour, which is 4400-6600 hours. The 2200-4400 hours time seems to be fairly in line with MIA type learners, usually 4400 hours for languages like Japanese. I would say... from what I've seen, some people make great progress using ALG for languages very unlike english like Thai in about ~2000 hours, and there are some MIA/Refold learners who make good progress in languages unlike english in around 2000 hours too (although if we count their anki study time it may be higher). FSI is the estimate I tend to look up when considering how long progress should take if studying explicitly with classes/textbooks/grammar study/word lists/flashcard apps.

I think sometimes ALG methods and Comprehensible Input methods are considered 'inefficient and slow' compared to traditional methods of textbook study/classroom drills/tutors, but looking at the end results, it appears both traditional and Automatic Language Growth methods result in ~B2/Upper Intermediate fluency around the same number of study hours. (As does MIA method).

My personal theory on all of this comparison stuff is... perhaps traditional learners hit A1-A2 progress milestones faster? I definitely think through explicitly studying (a textbook, or anki flashcards, or word/sentence lists in a self study book) one can learn small talk and tourist-navigation phrases in a couple months, compared to the year it may take to say such basic stuff after ALG/CI lessons. I think with the help of a GOOD textbook, or a good anki deck, you can be reading novels within 2-6 months especially if you're willing to look things up with a dictionary (so high A2 level), you can cram study for 100-300 hours then READ. Whereas if you do ALG/CI method you're going to be encouraged not to read much, and not to look words up much to help yourself understand when reading, until your pronunciation/listening is decent which is going to be 600-1500 hours in. If you cannot look words up to help yourself, you won't be able to read or watch as advanced material (which is the same as in our native language... you couldn't read a novel for adults at age 8 unless you were willing to ask someone what some words meant, or look words up in a dictionary, it was just too hard). So I do think explicit learners (textbooks, dictionaries, translation tools, anki etc) can engage with more complicated material FASTER because they can rely on tools to help them understand (dictionaries, translators, flashcards, teachers, textbook reference for grammar etc). However... the explicit learner may still fail to grasp any more than the implicit learner (ALG method/CI method) if they are try to watch a show or read a book with NO tools to aid them. That's my theory... my theory is it just takes a rough X number of hours to hit language ability milestones, no matter HOW you're studying (as long as you're learning some new stuff and practicing some prior-stuff regularly). Without the tools to aid you, most English speaking learners of Spanish are still looking at ~1500 hours to be able to navigate most conversations and shows and books without tools to aid them. I do think the explicit learners (classroom/textbook/anki flashcard) can start Doing things in a language faster, because they're willing to use tools (dictionaries, translators, grammar reference) and because if you're learning drills (such as in a classroom or from a podcast) then that will give you memorized key phrases you can say to get through daily life situations as a tourist/in small talk etc. It will still take roughly the same amount of time for ALL learners to get to a point of not needing to use any aids to understand, to speak with native speakers at normal conversation pace and not think too hard mentally to figure out how to respond, to read and listen with similar ease to their native language.

My point with all this is: it looks like even for an 'easier' language, you're looking at 1500 hours to upper intermediate. For a 'harder' language you're looking at 2200-4400. So you are going to take thousands of hours to get to upper intermediate, whether its just 1000 or 4000+. No matter HOW you study, you're going to eventually spend hundreds of hours listening to, watching, and reading in the target language. To develop speech, you'll eventually be spending hundreds of hours practicing speaking. Same with listening, reading, and writing (although some people seem to progress in just dozens of hours writing after a basis in the other skills). My point is also: looking words up or not, learning grammar or not, trying to experience versus parse language, it's mostly up to you on what you decide you'd like to do and what works best for you. As far as I'm seeing... you're going to learn either way, and get to upper intermediate either way (as long as you put in the study time, expose yourself to some new stuff, and practice comprehending some not new stuff regularly).

There may be some initial speed gains to beginner milestones if you learn explicitly (with translations, grammar explanations, flashcards, teachers) or use tools to accomplish those milestones. There may be some thousand hours shaved off your time later, if studying through ALG method (people learning Thai in some programs seemed to take 2000 hours to read Upper Intermediate if studying using ALG method, versus potentially 4400 hours with classroom study+self-study), but you won't necessarily be able to read/listen/watch/have small talk as quickly as the explicit methods learners (who can start doing those things - especially with tools to aid them - in as little as a few hundred hours). Using SRS (spaced repetition system) to study words/sentences/grammar may also potentially shave off some thousand of hours of study time, my guess here would be that it allows some learners to pick up the explicitly studied material a bit faster than learners with no particular review schedule... which, in a similar vein, I would guess ALG lessons that purposefully include spaced repetition of words you've been exposed to before will result in Faster progress and could also shave some time off of how long Upper Intermediate ability takes to reach (and in contrast, poorly designed CI/ALG lessons that rarely repeat words - especially if you don't rewatch old lessons - could result in it taking the longer amount of time to get to Upper Intermediate since you aren't getting timely reinforcement of things you need to review).

So yeah. Expect 1500-2000 hours of study time to reach Upper Intermediate in target languages similar to a language you know, 2000-4400 hours for languages less like one you know. That's the conclusion I'm taking for myself.

Things we can use to our advantage:

The more study time you do per day, the less years your language goals are going to take. If you reliably study 1-2+ hours a day, you're already set up to get to Upper Intermediate in a more timely manner. 365 days multipled by 4 years is 1460 hours at 1 hour a day, so if you're learning a language more like your own then 4 years of 1 hour commitment a day can see you to Upper intermediate. 365 days multiplied by 2 hours a day, for 4 years, is 2920 hours. So if you're learning a language unlike your own, a 2 hour daily commitment will see you to Lower or Upper Intermediate in potentially 4 years. And up to 6 years if you need the full 4380 hours to get there. 1-2 hour commitment a day for something you care about is doable. And once you hit a certain point in that journey you will be able to listen to the language like podcasts, which will allow you to fit in more study time while multitasking so you do more per day than 2 hours if you want to. If you are dedicated, you can speed up this timeline too if you've got the space in your schedule to do an initial study year of 3-4 hours a day or something. (As always... I'm beginning you to consider the time it will take to hit your goals. If your goal as an English speaker is to read within 6 months in Chinese, and you study 20 minutes a day... you probably won't reach your goal. If you study 1-2 hours, and are willing to look up words when reading, you may reach that goal of 6 months. And if you study 4 hours a day, you might actually reach your goal and not need word lookups for some reading materials by the 6 month mark. There are some people who study 15 minutes a day and wonder why in 4 years they aren't fluent in spanish... it's because at that pace, they'll need 16 years to reach Upper Intermediate. If they want to reach Upper Intermediate in 4 years, they need to study ~1 hour daily on average).

If you can build in review of stuff you recently were exposed to, into your routine, you may progress in less hours. So this could mean: reviewing old vocabulary lists in your textbook once a month, SRS anki flashcards, rewatching old ALG/CI videos once in a while if the words in the video are foggy in your memory, reading or listening regularly to a LOT of content (so it hopefully mentions words/grammar you've already learned so you can practice recognizing it and get review), re-listening or re-reading material you've already gone through before to review things you learned the last time you went through them. (Note: you can make progress without purposeful review, it just may be on the slower side since exposure to already-learned information will be random in the content you study with).

If you start with material you can understand the meaning of, you will make faster progress as a beginner. This is as simple as it sounds: textbooks are UNDERSTANDABLE because they explain everything's meaning, Comprehensible Input youtube lessons or ALG lessons are made to have visual hints so you UNDERSTAND the main idea even as a complete beginner, SRS anki flashcards with translations are UNDERSTANDABLE because they have translations, any books with translations where you read and compare, any tutor who either tells you translations or visually uses pictures/gestures to make their meaning understandable. As a beginner learner, pick something where you can understand THE MAIN IDEA being communicated. Most material made for beginners does this by default (textbooks, classes, and ALG and CI lessons). But if for some reason you want to begin learning by reading a book you love in the target language immediately, or watching a show, then either look up word translations OR read/watch something you know the plot of SO well that you remember the main ideas and can try to mentally map those main ideas to the target language sentences you're hearing.

When you are no longer a beginner, it is still going to be true that you will make progress faster with material you UNDERSTAND the meaning of. Again, very simple to follow. Either use lessons MADE so you understand the main idea (CI/ALG lessons, textbooks), or engage with content in the target language (books, shows, podcasts etc) where you can UNDERSTAND the main idea. You can look up words, to understand the main idea. Or choose not to look up words and only pick content you can already follow the main idea of with no aid. Either way, picking material you can (through some means) understand the main idea of is what will help you learn many new things, and review old things, with that material.

If you desire to do a specific task quickly with aid, explicit learning (textbooks, classroom, anki, memorizing lists, using dictionaries/translators) may help you accomplish a specific task quicker. So if you're planning a trip in 1 month, memorizing phrases may serve you better than ALG/CI lessons. Or if you aim to read a novel at the end of the month, you're likely going to need to use some method of cram studying words and/or be willing to look up translations of MANY words when reading, in order to make the novel's main idea understandable to you.

No matter how you study, you'll eventually have to read and listen to material made for native speakers, to improve your ability to understand it. So, assuming you've spent a few hundred to thousand hours learning thousands of words and grammar with learner materials (anki, textbook, or ALG/CI lessons, Crosstalk etc), you will still initially find content for native speakers difficult. Because even if you know the words/grammar, you'll need to get used to the fast speed and variety that's not in learner content as much. Getting used to reading/listening to material for native speakers takes hours of practice, hundreds of hours. You're not a failure if you don't immediately understand a podcast for native speakers, with words you 'should know,' if you've only ever listened to material made for learners beforehand. It's going to take hundreds of hours of practice.

In the long run, if you wish to be good at a specific skill (listening, reading, writing, speaking), you'll need to put potentially a few hundred hours into practicing it. Beyond the time you do the skill to learn words and grammar. So if you wish to be good at speaking, you'll spend thousand/thousands of hours working on learning words and vocabulary. But you'll also need to spend some hours specifically starting to speak, and then practicing. Listening and reading, being passive skills, will develop over time as you do them more while learning words/grammar. But speaking and writing will take hours of practice.

Do study methods you LIKE to do, and can get yourself to do REGULARLY for 1 hour or more, as much as possible. The goal is to study for thousands of hours... so do what you can actually get yourself to do. By the end, any study method will take a similar amount of time. But the methods you CAN do, you'll find success with. The 'best' method is worth nothing if you can never get yourself to do it. You are also more likely to hit your goals in less time, if you pick study methods you enjoy and can do regularly. Why does ALG take some people 2000 hours and some 4000... part of it is how different their target language is from one they know, but another part of it is how focused/engaged they were while doing their lessons and crosstalk. If you're very focused, and happy, to be doing your study activity, you will zone out less and retain more.

If you have already studied a language, you will make faster progress. Why? Because you already have learned (probably) 1. How to get yourself to study regularly, and for enough hours per day to satisfy the speed of progress you wish to make. 2. You already know what study methods you enjoy doing and that seem to result in faster progress for you. 3. You already know how to determine if you 'understand' a material enough to learn from it, and how to make content more understandable for you with aids (if you desire to). 4. You already know, for you personally, what you plan to prioritize learning first (an example would be that someone learning a language for the first time might not know if they need to learn the word 'bank' now or in 3 years, whereas a person who's learned a language before and needs to go to the bank in 6 months and speak that target language may already know they with to prioritize learning the word bank and words they'll need to do banking activities within the next few months. A new learner who wants to read may not know graded readers exist, or what vocabulary they'll need to make reading easier, but someone who's already studied a language is going to be more likely to immediately look up Graded Readers, translation tools to use, and look up words that frequently pop up in novels but not conversation).

Set goals. Especially if you're learning a language for the first time, on your own. If you can't think of goals, just find someone else's progress journey and make goals similar to theirs. So if you like reading, find a learner who learned using a lot of reading and try to aim for the goals they had. If you want to be conversational quickly, find a learner who accomplished that and see what smaller goals they had, and try to aim for them too. You can get study ideas from the people who already reached their goals, and you can get smaller goals to aim for every couple months to check your own progress and keep yourself accountable. If you use an explicit study material like a textbook or anki, you could make your small goals to get through X chapters or 500 anki cards per month. And you could look up how fast other people got through the textbook, or anki deck, and make a goal to complete the material in a similar time frame.

#language learning #rant #article #mia #refold #alg #alg method #comprehensible input #comprehensible input method #ci #ci method #study plan

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