#ci method

[rigelmejo]

Picking up a second language from television: an autoethnographic L2 simulation of L1 French learning

I deeply appreciate this experiment one person did with their own language learning, Picking up a second language from television: an autoethnographic L2 simulation of L1 French learning, and it's free to read if anyone else is curious.

The writer did the following: attempted to learn French by watching TV shows in French with no subtitles, and no word lookups or translations, for 1200 hours. They started with shows for adults, and realized children's cartoons were much easier to learn new words from initially as the visual context and slow speech helped them figure out word/phrase/grammar meanings, and then watched children's cartoons for a while until gradually increasing difficulty of shows again. While in the first several hundred hours, they watched some cartoons by repeatedly watching certain sentences and scenes over and over, attempting to understand as much as they could, such as with the cartoon Calliou. After 1200 hours, they started reading French, talking to people in French, and reading some grammar explanations at that point. They passed a B2 test at the conclusion of 1500 hours, with the first 1200 being watching French TV with no tools/explanations and then the last 300 hours including speaking and finally looking up some explanations and seeing french writing.

This account of their experience is incredibly interesting to me. It shows a few things which (at least for me) can be learned from.

1. That a goal of aiming for over a thousand hours spent trying to understand materials in your target language is useful.

2. The time they spent engaging with French is (very roughly) similar to FSI estimates if you include the hours of outside-class study recommended, 750 class hours plus time spent studying outside of class (2 hours outside of class per class hour is the FSI recommendation - which would be 2250 for French). The time it took him to pass B2 is in the 1000+ hour range, which is similar to classroom time plus outside study time expected. Automatic Language Growth type courses tend to suggest 1000-2000 hours to speak on an adult level and understand others, with 1500 being the suggested study length Dreaming Spanish suggests and ALG Thai programs recommending 2000 hours. Some learners who've done DS and ALG Thai programs suggest they feel they can understand people and discuss things on a basic level at those hours, but feel they need more hours to really be 'fluent'. I think that aligns well with the 1500 hour French study linked above, where he felt 1500 hours felt intermediate and capable of talking with others/working/understanding others but by no means fluent. So my personal thoughts on this is... the French 2250 hour estimate (FSI class-hours estimates added to 2 outside-class hours per hour as FSI suggests) is probably roughly in line with people's experiences.

And the earlier goal of 1500 (1000-2000 depending on the individual, and the target language) being a good initial goal for basic ability to do all things in the language (but not necessarily well and not mastered). Perhaps this number could be several hundred hours, and less than a thousand, if your target language is similar to one you already know or you have experience learning languages already. But the thought I am concluding from all of this is: expect 1000 hours or more trying to understand stuff in your target language if you wish to be able to understand the main idea (or more) of most things, and communicate your main idea with others.

(And for the sake of curiosity, FSI estimates 2200 class hours for Japanese and Chinese, so 6600 hours total, for an English speaker. So probably...at minimum 1000 hours to start speaking, like ALG Thai learners notice, at minimum 2000 hours to start understanding the main idea of most things, and based on FSI estimates... perhaps 3000-3300 hours minimum to start feeling similar to that level achieved after 1500 hours studying French or Spanish).

3. He studied French with zero aids like grammar guides or translations or even the French alphabet and a pronunciation explanation. He mentions in his paper, that being able to look up translations, or even see French subtitles on the TV shows, may have potentially sped up his progress. (Or perhaps not, as he didn't try those tools until 1200 hours in). Many of us learners HAVE used such tools already. The lesson I take from his experience is...even if you use NO tools or aids to learn, if you dedicate 1000+ hours to attempting to understand visual-audio situations (videos or classes or your life experiences in a country) you will make progress and increase your understanding of the language. If you initially focus on more-visually understandable things, like children's cartoons or ALG teachers who visually attempt to explain or a person helping you through a situation (like a native speaker talking to you as they help you grocery shop), then your initial progress as a beginner will be FASTER. And it may well be necessary to understand a certain amount, as a beginner, for the target-language input to be useful. You don't need to understand 100% or even 90%, but you do need to understand enough to hear at least 1 word or phrase or grammar piece every couple minutes that you can GUESS at the possible meaning of. At least, to learn in a timely manner.

So as a beginner, visual-audio input is much more useful than audio only - especially if you don't have cognates to use to make guesses. And visual-audio input where the speaking is ABOUT something in the same scene/experience/event so it's easier to guess what bits of the language mean. And if you choose to use tools like a translation app/site, if it's helping you figure out meaning of bits of language then it may be particularly useful as a beginner. (There's certainly language learning camps that think using translations lessens your actual learning of the language, but based on his paper... I at least think, what I take from it, is that those beginning few hundred hours it's most important you find a way to UNDERSTAND the main idea of the target language material. My take is that, even if that involves translation tools for 300 hours initially, it's worth it. You can abandon translation tools once you understand enough stuff in the language - like a few hundred key words or pronunciations etc - to start understanding really basic main ideas from kids cartoons. But if you can't even guess "cartoon character is pointing to bike, seems to want bike, even though I have no idea what words they're saying, maybe one of those words was bike..." then you aren't going to comprehend enough to guess word meanings. It seems like after the first few hundred hours, the need for translations and/or kid cartoons is less. Once you have some small base of words/phrases you've guessed the meaning of, then it's possible to start guessing the meaning of conversations even when there's no visual context to indicate what's going on - such as adult shows where they discuss off-screen abstract topics, and audio only materials).

4. There is no huge need to pick the 'perfect' study method or materials. After the initial beginner stage of learning some key words/phrases from visual context (a few hundred hours), you WILL continue learning and make progress as long as you keep engaging with the language and trying to understand the main idea. So study/watch/listen to whatever you like that, that you can get yourself to engage with for 1000 hours or more. Some people will want to keep looking up word-translations, do that. Some people will love cdramas or anime or shows and just want to watch tons of shows. Some people will feel more comfortable watching/doing easier things like a tutor that matches your comfort level (like crosstalk), immersion with someone helping you navigate, watching cartoons, watching stuff for learners (like Comprehensible Input youtube channels). Some people want to jump into the deep end and go for audiobooks or podcasts. If you are able to even just GUESS a word/phrase/grammar point meaning every 1-3 minutes (or more often) then you'll likely keep improving your understanding. No need to be perfect, just figure out a way to keep yourself engaged. Because it'll take a thousand hours or more.

5. I hate to say this because I love reading... but to develop listening comprehension... you need to listen. Having visual-audio materials as a beginner is critical. Even if that means graded readers you read paired with an audiobook. And you'll need to keep listening for at least 1000 hours to build good listening comprehension - it takes time to get used to hearing the pronunciation, to mentally separating it into phrases/words, to adjusting to various speeds, to emotional meanings and implications, to adjust to understanding various accents. His paper indicated he struggled with understanding faster speech until he'd studied enough hundreds of hours, and then struggled with slang and accents much longer. Listening comprehension is critical to: conversing with others, speaking and being understood, listening to shows and audio. So it must be worked on. That is not to say you can't study by reading - I sure did! And still do! But that the hours spent reading WITHOUT audio will not contribute to some of those critical listening and speaking skills.

Reading on it's own will help prime you to pick up vocabulary when listening faster, help with increasing vocabulary, help with getting used to word usage and grammar. But based on his paper... for him, at least, it seems reading skill was picked up Extremely Fast after already having a good ability to listen and speak with people. He picked up reading skills within months! From my own experience... I mostly studied with reading ONLY activities, in French and Chinese, and improving in my listening skills takes A LOT of hours. It will not be as good as my reading within a few months. I think I may pick up listening skills Somewhat faster than someone who's read less, since I am primed to learn listening comprehension of words I understand in reading faster than trying to comprehend brand new words. But so many listening skills are lagging significantly. My Chinese listening skills are much better than my French listening skills, since I did often listen while reading when I studied. But there's still so many key aspects of words that I don't have natural ability to simply verbalize without thinking, like instantly saying the right tone, or instantly knowing the right pronunciation for some words I can read fine. And comprehension of listening to people is way lower than my ability to read and comprehend.

[tempo-takoyaki]

Listen, I love the "XL helps HC to see how beautiful he is" scenario as much as the next person... But I also see it like this.

[talk-danmei-to-me]

It's you Xie Lian. The answer to what makes Hua Cheng, Hua Cheng is Xie Lian.

Like honestly, this boy is so dumb sometimes.. I know Hua Cheng has lost his game this book with his special person and joking about marriage, but my dude, seriously?

[corneredcopia]

While I draw I like to have a little bill cipher staring at my work to motivate me

[yeonslayjun]

MXTX WHY?!?!?!?

AFTER TRAUMA DUMPING ALL THAT SHIT YOU'RE TELLINH ME HUA CHENG WAS KISSING XIE LIAN DEEPLY?!?!!??!?!!

i am not okay

IDK WHETHER to scream cry laugh or just die.....dying seems easier

[theygender]

I love being T4T. My gf has been on estrogen for a couple weeks now and she's been having a rough time with her mood so I'm teaching her about the ancient art of soaking in a bubble bath with a little drink to sip while watching shows on your laptop

[princessofxianle]

Sometimes when Im feeling weak I look at Xie Lian and wish I could be as strong as him. Physically but also mentally. Even after 800 years he still smiles, and even before Hua Cheng found him.

With that being said, I also find comfort in that, once upon a time, even a strong person like Xie Lian truly wanted to die after his life fell apart. A feeling that is so very real and very human.

This man, an ex-god at the time, who we all idolize... even he attempted suicide in his 20s.

And yet he still lived to over 800 to accomplish some pretty amazing things, including (but absolutely not limited to) his third ascension.

Sometimes, if you want a story to tell, you gotta go through hell.

And even the strongest people sometimes wanna throw in the towel.

Don't be too hard on yourself. Your favorite strongest characters took an absolute beating to get to where they are now.

But you still love them, right? Bc I sure as hell do.

[dudelynxx]

he/she hunter toh (crowd cheers)

[tenaciousrumour]

hot academic men come have conversations with me where we disagree on the analysis of different texts just to rile the other up. call it derivative, lacking detail, watch how the others teeth grind and how saliva blooms on the backs of your gums.

I need someone to challenge me, not mind when I bite too hard. passion has always been an ugly word that misplaces coherency and I need a man who too feels anger in the wrong places. gnaw at eachother all messy with teeth and grieving a boyhood that never had the chance to leave our bodies, we strike with sharp words that no longer hold our feminine softening.

we are both quick, blunt, and I have to keep swallowing around the argument pouring from my mouth like a flood drain. we want eachother in that way that's mostly sin, a vengeful gluttony, a hedonistic lust too indulgent to say in any way that's permanent.

[tiercel]

Once again asking when the T pellet will be available for men that are not cis & old

[nowtoboldlygo]

AVOID These MISTAKES When Getting INPUT - Superbeginner Spanish

[skeletonmaster69]

im still really pissed that everyone said gc2b sucks like literally scared me into going with underworks instead and guess what their binders sucked and my years old gc2b one is infinitely more comfortable than them

[ballroomnotoriety]

ive had to explain being she/they a lot this year and honestly the best explanation that's landed so far that's made cis people go "oh...okay" is that my whole life my interests have wandered between "boy room" and "girl room" and i got tired of people telling me i put my stuff in the wrong place so i knocked a wall out and now i have an open floor plan.

[beautifulsummersunsets]

China: OMG! Do you watch our shows!? Wait, let me share with you the full episode with english subtitles on our official youtube account so you can enjoy it properly 💗

Japan: Not Japanese? Then fuck you 🙃

[invisiblyvisiblejay]

letting people pick if they're trans or cis or nonbinary or binary separately is great bc like accurate and representative of gender and stuff but HELL to like. count. like i have 146 cis women, 33 cis men, 9 trans men, and 7 trans women which is fine but then there's 12 people who are just nonbinary and 12 who are trans and nonbinary and one who's cis nonbinary and one who's a trans nonbinary woman. and that's like okay why's that an issue well.

my data says i have 221 participants but 183 are cis and 26 are nonbinary and 31 are trans (which is 240) and then also theres 42 people who are trans and/or nonbinary (but 26 + 31 = 57) and 178 who are just cis (soo 5 cis and nonbinary/trans) AND i have 44 men and 10 nonbinary people and 154 women and 13 who picked multiple genders (but 10 + 13 = 23 so 3 unaccounted nonbinary people) (and 44 + 154 = 198 so should be 23 not men or women). do u see the problem. if u think that sounds confusing that's because it is and way too many people are in multiple groups 😭😭😭😭

[professionalchaoticdumbass]

works for everything (testosterone, estrogen, progesterone, blockers, etc) & effectiveness is on par with existing methods. frequency is anywhere from daily to monthly