#Odyssey Calypso is an entirely different character

[several-breathing-eyes]

Percy Jackson Calypso: A teenage girl who was stuck (mentally and physically) as a teenage girl for thousands of years. Due to being literally prevented from maturing and having love be used as a punishment for her, love, relationships, and maturity are things she now struggles with.

Odyssey Calypso: ...

[marvelmaniac715]

It’s not that I don’t like Six Hundred Strike, I just think that Jay has turned the Odyssey into an entirely different story, because not once have I seen the Phaecians. Who are the Phaecians, you ask? They’re the kingdom that Odysseus goes to for help after escaping Calypso’s island. In the Odyssey, Athena has little to no trouble convincing her father Zeus to release Odysseus, and they deliberately wait until Poseidon is distracted elsewhere - he’s not as much of a directly persistent threat in Homer’s version - to send Hermes to the island to bargain. Then Odysseus sets out on his little boat with supplies from Calypso and he’s caught in a terrible ship wrecking storm, after which he’s assisted by a sea goddess who allows him to safely reach Phaecian shores. Then he flatters the young teenage princess Nausicaa into helping him get into her parents’ palace, where he is welcomed and treated to a feast and Olympic style games as a show of Xenia. Odysseus then relates the tales of his travels as a gift in return for safe passage home, because the Phaecians are disliked by Poseidon for frequently helping people sail home who weren’t necessarily permitted by the gods, and it’s only with their help along with Athena (who never really leaves) that he reaches his wife and son. He never stabs Poseidon, in fact at the very end he’s told to sail off to plant an oar into sand and sacrifice to Poseidon because of pietas (devotion to the gods). I think that one of the only reasons why the Phaecians aren’t in Epic, aside from understandably being cut for time, is because they prove that Polites’s open arms philosophy actually works - Odysseus makes it home alive because he is kind to strangers and that kindness is returned to him - ruthlessness is not the only solution, and that doesn’t fit with Epic Odysseus’s character arc. I’m not like an expert or anything, but I’m studying Classics as an A Level and we did the Odyssey last term, so it’s quite fun to compare and contrast the source material with this adaptation.

[transbutchblues]

could you please elaborate on your feelings on the gods' characterization in the wisdom saga? Not forcing you tho!

sure! keep in mind that i love EPIC and that even if i complain about things here, i totally respect the choices that Jorge makes. it’s his musical and i admire all the work put in the songs.

disclaimer : most of the time i try to dissociate EPIC from the Odyssey in my mind, because thinking of EPIC as an adaptation tends to make me upset due to how different it is. but it’s also amazing on its own! there are creative liberties that i deeply love (like having Odysseus know about Scylla but not telling anyone, and changing the context of the mutiny), others that i don’t like that much but that i can get behind, and others that i really dislike. i understand why everything is done the way it’s done, but i still have opinions.

before talking about the Wisdom Saga i’d like to explain how i felt about the gods in the other sagas. as a classics student and a hellenic polytheist i tend to dislike most modern portrayals of the gods, mostly because they’re usually flat and lack nuance. up until this saga, i had never been disappointed by any choice done regarding the gods in EPIC. they were all so interesting.

i loved Zeus in Thunder Bringer. it’s one of my favorite songs, and i found that Zeus was beautifully portrayed. he’s the villain, sure, he offers an awful choice (for the second time), but the situation was created by Odysseus and his men. i loved the lyrics and their double meaning.

this all fell apart in God Games, for me. it just didn’t feel like the same Zeus anymore. and as much as i try to dissociate EPIC from Homer’s epics, i love the Iliad and the Odyssey too much not to point out that Zeus would never be like that. in the Odyssey, Zeus immediately agrees with Athena on the fact that Odysseus must be freed from Calypso’s island. Poseidon is the only god who really wants to stop Odysseus, Zeus doesn’t exactly care about him. he knows Odysseus’ fate and he won’t go against it. besides, Athena is Zeus’ favorite daughter in Homer’s works. he loves her. he doesn’t like it when she defies her, that’s very clear in the Iliad, he even threatens her when she does that, but he loves her dearly and he gives her nearly everything she asks for. he would simply not strike her down like that. and Zeus has no reason to go against his own word. if he sets a challenge, he respects the terms. he’s a fair god, he’s a ruler, he’s all about divine justice. i don’t mind changes, but i dislike these ones.

and Athena… Athena was always the deity i felt the less sure about in EPIC. don’t get me wrong, i love her in the previous songs. but i never knew where exactly her character arc would bring her and i felt uneasy. now i know i was right to feel this way.

there had to be an explanation to the fact that Athena hadn’t helped Odysseus during the years he was imprisoned by Calypso. i understand why in EPIC, this explanation is that Odysseus and Athena fought and fell apart. in fact, i love My Goodbye. i think the way Odysseus is portrayed in the Cyclops Saga makes him way more of an asshole than he is in the Odyssey (and that’s alright by me!), because he’s stupid and hubristic and he refuses to listen to Athena. in the Odyssey, Athena never abandons Odysseus, she helps him during his entire journey. but if he had talked to her like he does in EPIC, she probably would have left him! i find their fight interesting, how cold Athena can be, how betrayed they both feel.

but! here comes the Wisdom Saga. and i love Athena in Little Wolf. i like her in God Games too. maybe even in Love in Paradise. but i can’t get over We’ll Be Fine, it just doesn’t sound right to me. i like Telemachus. but i hate that this is how Athena suddenly decides to go back to Odysseus. "i could sleep at night", really? why would she feel guilty about leaving a hero who refused to listen to her? i enjoyed how cold she was in My Goodbye, it was an interesting choice, and i would have liked for her to remain this way. or to change more slowly. the loneliness aspect could have been great if it had been explored more in depth (which i know wouldn’t have been possible since she doesn’t have enough songs to allow for slow character development). this just felt rushed and strange.

i would have liked for Athena not to reach out until Odysseus does. the moment where he cries out her name at the end of Love in Paradise is heart-wrenching, i love it. that’s when i would have loved for her to suddenly hear him and go back to him, instead of already being there. that would have been a moment where she could have decided to help him despite what he said and did, because she still cares about him and she sees him being so desperate. that could have been a moment where she feels guilty or lonely.

i know it’s done that way so that Telemachus saves Odysseus’ life by giving advice to Athena. it’s fine, it’s a nice idea. i understand why people like it, and i’m glad they do. it just feels off to me.

regarding the other gods: firstly, Calypso is great and i love her! now, on the other ones: i think instead of all this weird Zeus portrayal in God Games, it would have been nice to mention Poseidon. if there had to be a reason for Zeus not to want to release Odysseus, it could have been something to do with his brother. Apollo’s appearance felt unnecessary, his argument was weak, i’m still glad he was there but i didn’t love his portrayal. my opinion for Hephaestus is similar (though i liked his portrayal better, he just felt unnecessary), with another thought: i’m already starting to see more art of him and i really wish people would depict him as disabled, because not everybody does. i liked Aphrodite’s and Ares’ part, and Hera’s was fun. i don’t necessarily like the overall vibes of God Games but that’s just a matter of my music tastes, there are multiple songs in EPIC that i don’t really listen to because of that while still enjoying their role in the storyline.

obviously most people disagree with me, and i’m glad everyone seems to love that saga. some parts were just really not for me, namely, We’ll Be Fine, the beginning of Love in Paradise, and the end of God Games.

[ppppxseur]

EPIC THE MUSICAL VENGEANCE SAGA SPOILERS!!

spoilers under the cut! do not proceed if you havent listened to the vengeance saga yet!!

also if you dont want to read my take about calypso, this may not be the review for you because thats 95% of what i talk about because I Have Opinnions. (spoiler alert, im a sympathizer)

600 strike

OKAY MY RATINGS FOR THE VENGEANCE SAGA GOES AS FOLLOWS

charybdis

not sorry for loving you

get in the water

dangerous

i thought everything was heavenly and i dont understand the hate for 600 strike???? people saying it was "too anime" like jorge wasnt inspired by video games and anime so like theres going to be a big anime cutscene of "the final boss"

my biggest complaint just stems from the fact that the saga felt a bit rushed imo? but like... thats just because the odyssey is so fucking long so of course the saga is gonna feel a bit cramped because theres just too much happening that can be put in the musical at one time

also also uh... the calypso hate... oh my god the calypso hate jesus christ you guys. calling her a monster and evil is like. an absolutely insane jump (IN MY OPINION)

because... okay. heres where my line of logic falls. obviously epic!calypso =/= odyssey!calypso are... different people, so obviously epic!calypso isnt going to be the exact same as odyssey!calypso. and i NEED people to get that distinction through their minds because i feel like y'all are comparing the two when theyre different characters written by different people.

people are saying calypso is manipulative in not sorry for loving you and im sorry, i just dont see it. manipulation is purposeful, its directed, its pointed. and i just... dont think thats what she was doing. granted she DID use manipulative language with the line "and if you hate me, then im sorry my love is too much for you" but i dont think she was actively trying to manipulate odysseus

because, like, imagine living your entire life on a deserted island. NO ONE is around you. you are literally all alone. even circe had her nymphs and aeolus had their winions. calypso didnt have any of that. so OF COURSE she was all over odysseus. of COURSE she mistook her feelings for love. of COURSE she did everything to try to keep him there. hes the only thing like her that she has ever known.

and before you come at me. i know. i know that keeping someone trapped isnt an act of love, but she doesnt know that because shes had no experience with other people before. not even other gods!

so i wouldnt even necessarily say shes being manipulative. shes just... telling him what she feels and worded it badly.

my opinion of calypso boils down to: naive and not understanding. i dont think she fully understands the weight of keeping odysseus trapped and the duress that hes under. i dont think she fully understands odysseus but she really, really wants to. shes so desperate for him to stay that shes not listening to him. and it takes hermes talking to her to snap her out of her daydream that odysseus' is hers to keep.

not sorry for loving you isnt a tantrum. its her expressing her feelings to him. its her final, true act of love by letting him go even if she really doesnt want to.

and i dont think odysseus was just telling her he loved her because thats what she wanted to hear. i mean, odysseus does not seem like the type of man to lie about his feelings or sugar coat shit in any sort of way. so i think, in some capacity, they were probably friendly. i wouldnt go as far to say that they were friends but platonic love doesnt just grow overnight.

sorry this ended up being a Calypso rant, but i honestly love her and i just dont understand why theres a lot of hatred for her. and some of the comments ive seen about her are so vile that im honestly wondering if this has anything to do with epic!calypso at all...

like dont get me wrong, i understand and fully validate you if you felt uncomfortable by her because i do see where the discomfort can lie! but i guess my kneejerk reaction to hearing love in paradise and now not sorry for loving you is that this bitch needs therapy IMMEDIATELY!

and then if you want to know the rest of my opinions about the saga its that i thought dangerous was good it just wasnt my favorite, get in the water is under not sorry for loving you just cuz i liked it more, charybdis bops i just wish it was a little longer.

anyway please dont flame roast me for my calypso opinions lol. i just have a lot of sympathy for her ig

[writings-of-a-hufflepuff]

Odyssey - an opinion on Odysseus

Tw: reference to sexual assault, coercision, rape in abstract terms as themes.

Currently reading the Odyssey for the first time and there are 2 interpretations it feels like you can make with Odysseus and his intereactions with characters like Calypso.

He's an unloyal twat who willingly sleeps with everyone woman he can (I feel like this seems to be the most popular female oriented take from what I know of a lot of modern retellings)

That actually, Odysseus has very little choice. The women he sleeps with are goddesses who entrap him in someway and the reality is that his one consistent goal is to get back to Penelope, the clever wife he loves. In effect Odysseus pretty much is being coerced and forced into these sexual relationships. Take Calypso for example, he can't kill her, can't leave, can't persuade her to let him go. He spends the years he's there crying, sobbing, desperate to leave but lays in her bed at night when she asks him to. This to me doesn't seem like a man who wants to be doing that, wants to be betraying his wife, but instead a man who has little choice. Admittedly as well, it's made clear that the goddesses (Calypso and Circe) have a sort of magic when it comes to coercing and getting people to do what they want and it's made clear that Calypso's goal is to have Odysseus stay as her husband forever. The moment he has a chance to leave, after Hermes forces Calypso's hand, he does so, refusing to stay and turning down immortality and by all accounts one of the most beautiful creatures on the planet. There are multiple women, mortal and immortal, in the books who are described as desiring Odysseus and as extremely beautiful. The immortal he sleeps with, but the mortal he does not despite the opportunities afforded him. This to me suggests he only sleeps with the immortal ones because he has very little real choice, who is he to go against a goddess? I personally believe that if he had a real choice, he would have been celibate for those 20 years until he returned home.

I think it's really easy to judge Odysseus at face value, that he's a cheat and liar and that he didn't have to do these things. But to me, my personal interpretation (which is what it is, you can have a different one and that's fine!) is that this man, this highly intelligent man, adores his wife, wants to be back home, but has very little choice. That at best he sleeps with these goddesses knowing that it will enable his survival and at worst he's literally forced through the coercive nature that is a goddess and her powers. It doesn't seem to me, especially with Calypso, that he wants to be there, that he really wants her or cares for her or desires her, it seems like a motion, something he has to do because he's forced to. This man spends his entire time crying and I suspect if he could have he would have killed her, but who can kill a goddess? A daughter of Atlas? Certainly not him.

It strikes me as well, that if he really were that much of a rake, then the mortal women he comes across who are described as beautiful and desiring him, he would also sleep with or even marry and stay with. But he doesn't.

It may be an unpopular interpretation, but I actually really like Odysseus and I personally believe he has little choice in these flawed actions and that in reality he's a victim, I don't believe Homer puts it forth as some sort of romantic ideal or the hero being rewarded.

Obviously, you don't have to agree. You can have your own opinion and that's fine.

[gay-furry-poseidon-lover]

do Calypso haters know that sky daddy and trident man have done so much more and so much worse, and also that none of them are real... also your bbygirl Odysseus literally did infanticide...

In her Epic songs theres really nothing that suggests Calypso did what yall hate her for. we can enjoy Zues and Poseidon's characters while also knowing that they did bad things, why must we emphasize so intensley how bad Calypso every time she comes up?

There are so many different retellings and translations and versions of these myths, and Epic the musical isnt meant to be entirely accurate to whatever youd consider The Odyssey Canon. (Jetpack)

Anyways i support women 💜

[heliomanteia]

Hi! I've stumbled across a couple of your posts about Calypso and I just wanted to say that it was nice to see someone that thinks about her the same way that I do. She is deeply flawed and does things that are wrong, but she's also a whole person being used as a punishment by the gods for some random man they don't like very much. It's just so wonderful for me to see a person that can see her whole character instead of just her poor meow meow Odysseus potential

(like the rape headcanon which has a single (ONE SINGLE LINE) of evidence in the entire saga for. I'm so sick of people taking this character that probably doesn't even know what sex is and deciding that she's a rapist because she was in the original Odyssey. Literally no one else gets this treatment but her)

Hello, Epic!Calypso means a lot to me and every time I see an incessantly mean post about her I grow to like her more in defiance /lh

I feel a lot of ways about Calypso and I'm very biased because I resonate with her on some deep personal level. But also your ask allows me to rant and so I will:

🌊 I like Calypso as a character because she's complex. She has close to no known lore in the Odyssey and I choose to ignore other texts that mention her because, well, Epic is loosely based off the Odyssey. The musical expanded on the little personality she had in the text in a good way, in my opinion. She's more than a foil/functional narrative part she was in the original text.

🌴 I feel like you're making a good point by saying she probably doesn't know what sex is. While she's clearly an adult woman, she was supposedly imprisoned young (if you follow the general myth, then during Titanomachy) and it's never stated she had prior lovers. She probably has an idea of intimacy but no experience of intimacy. She's also not socialized properly. I would compare her experience to someone living in total isolation or solitary confinement. Of course her people skills are limited. She needs therapy, not public scrutiny.

🥥 Whether or not you believe immortal beings age and mature depends on the source but mythology (generally) offers us examples of growing up and becoming of Gods so I believe Calypso grew up on that island. Her saying she was imprisoned "when young" also kinda hints it imo. With that said, this girl might have as well spent her formative years alone. Loneliness has devastating effects on psyche, I'm surprised she's not deathly depressed. That is, if we choose a sympathetic route — which is what I choose to follow because Epic is overall written as a sympathetic narrative. If it wasn't, I'd just call Odysseus a war criminal that deserves all he got.

🐚 This one is controversial but I cannot help but feel sympathy for the way Calypso imagines a happily-ever-after and genuinely believes in that illusion. It reminds me a lot of how someone with a stigmatized mental disorder would view reality in a distorted way — and sometimes even hurt other people without meaning to hurt them. Toxic (this word is so overused), suffocating love? And from both of her songs we know she didn't mean to hurt Odysseus. Her actions were wrong, her reasonings convoluted, but she did not mean harm. She hurt him without an intention to hurt him and she can't see that she hurt him because her world rotates on completely different system of axis. You could say she understands she might have been wrong but she won't apologize for it.

🍹 I will never keep repeating that she's an immortal character that lacks human morality overall + she's never been around others before Odysseus. The way she's scrutinized for the same things other Gods across mythology do (most of whom are constantly around mortals and have a track of seducing them) is such a knee-jerk response it's funny.

Like I said before, I personally choose to interpret Calypso's "ambush" as at least somewhat physical, but at the end of the day it is an assumption/personal preference. You reminded me, though, how, hm, peculiar it is that she's so far the only character whose mythical counterpart overpowers her musical persona in the fandom about the musical. I appreciate that people are aware of the text of the Odyssey enough (I hope) but there has to be a limit to the complaining. Jorge works hard to create fleshed out characters for his own loosely inspired story that he fills in with his own narratives. I think it gets to the point of ridiculous when a fleshed out character is ignored in favor of a barely defined myth counterpart.

Her character didn't get absolved of the blame, she got two banger songs that completely align with her myth persona, literally what is that thing that makes people so mad about her. Because if it's personal distaste then it sure overpowered the ability to enjoy complicated narratives and characters that do not align with what the main character needs.

[kateweathermachine2]

Thoughts on God Games

Don’t mind this post being on Wisdom when Vengeance already came out school is a lot okay-

So in a previous post, I mentioned how I was a little disappointed by the end of God Games. It came down to a combination of my expectations for the Zeus “round” versus the reality and some (well thought out) posts I read in my frazzled I-survived-the-wisdom-saga-livestream state critiquing Zeus’s character in Epic. I’m not going to go into more details than that for now.

While I was grappling with how I felt about God Games and how that impacted my thoughts on the Wisdom Saga and Epic as a whole, I started thinking about what I would have done differently, or what I would’ve liked to have seen done differently, in God Games. And this exercise turned out to be pretty fun and helped me with my thoughts and feelings about the actual God Games. So I decided to share some of my thoughts with you!!

So for my thought-scenario, I wanted to change God Games, but not drastically. I didn’t want to change any gods in the games or even alter how it ends. I just wanted to figure out how to tweak it just right. And I think I figured out the key: more time!

God Games is long by Epic song standards- at 5:19, it’s the longest song in the musical so far! And there’s one small word in the published song that’s distinctly different from the drafts Jay’s posted- Zeus’s “and me” versus “or me”. I have a small theory that there was originally going to be more to the song, that Zeus was going to be the final round instead of Hera. But that part likely got scrapped due to how long the song was/could’ve gotten. But hEY, THAT’S JUST A THEORY; A MUSICAL TH- I’m sorry I’ll go see myself out

So for my little re-imagine, the primary thing I’m doing is leaning *into* the length of the song! Make it longer! Honestly I was expecting more of an 8 minute song here and I’m impressed by Jorge’s ability to condense it all but still make it easily follow-able.

First change we’re making- turn that “or” back into “and”! There’s no choose whom to convince situation here, Zeus is clearly the final round.

Moving swiftly forward to Apollo and Hephaestus! Both of these verses are great on their own, but for this I’m thinking we extend them by just a couple extra lines.

Perhaps Apollo doesn’t need more convincing, but he says an extra quip towards Athena to sort of pay homage to the Odyssey, where he’s also watching over Odysseus (I think, I’m not a Greek mythology or Homer expert). Something like…

Apollo: “You’re not the only one who’s watched over him” ;)

Athena: “… Thank you.”

Apollo: “Release him!”

Or something similar. Hephaestus, now, I don’t have any specific ideas on how to make his verse longer, but I’d just add a couple other back-and-forth lines before he says to release Odysseus.

Aphrodite and Ares were perfect. They were great, I love them. Athena could potentially have an extra line towards Aphrodite about how, even though he missed his mother’s passing, if he’s released he won’t waste another second to get home to the rest of his family he loves. Not entirely sure how to condense that into a witty verse, but there ya go 😅

Hera!!! Hera’s… is perfect. I can’t see any good way to stretch it out, and I love how succinct it is. So leave that verse 100% as-is.

Now for the big one- Zeus! In this version of God Games, Zeus is the final round, so Athena hasn’t won yet. The verse even starts with Zeus instead of Athena. I’d pay homage to the original Odyssey again here, and have Zeus ask Athena why she desires to go against the fates, which is what ultimately landed Odysseus on Calypso’s island in the first place (by spiting Poseidon’s son and the cattle incident, even though it wasn’t Odysseus who killed the cow in the first place) (once again, not an expert, I’ve read this part of the Odyssey only once, so I could be forgetting/misremembering some details).

Athena may reply with something like “he’s paid his fair due, he deserves to go back home”, and also challenges(?) fate as to leaving Odysseus on Calypso’s island for such a long time. Athena’s and Zeus’s lines in this part are longer than most of the other gods’ lines in their verses.

Alternatively, instead of saying “fate” is what led Odysseus to the island, it’s Zeus’s divine punishment to Odysseus for the mistakes he’s made on the voyage home, and for the cyclops and cow and all the crew who died. In this case, Athena is (in)directly challenging Zeus’s authority on the matter. Maybe there’s another couple lines back and forth here, but it winds up to Athena directly calling Zeus out for Odysseus’s pain and demanding that Zeus release him as he’s suffered enough. And *thiiis* is what sets Zeus off.

I imagine his lines here are pretty similar to the ones he actually sings, but tweaked (obviously) to fit this new situation. Something like

“You dare to defy me?! To make me feel shame?! Your foolish pride is what will make you LOSE MY GAME”

I’m not entirely sure on the pride line, I know there’s something in Greek Mythos about pride/hubris being a solely *human* thing, something that the gods just don’t have problems with? But on the other hand, to Zeus this is Athena rising above her place and defying his authority, something he needs to put out right *now*. What would it be if not some sort of pride? (Obviously it stems more from Athena’s friendship with/care for Odysseus but that’s not gonna factor into Zeus’s perspective)

And from here on, the rest of the song goes as it was. Thunder bringer, the flashback, Athena standing her ground, and her making her final plea to Zeus.

And those were my thoughts on how I would expand God Games and fit a whole round with Zeus in it! I had a lot of fun coming up with this reimagining, and it’s actually helped me enjoy the God Games we got more too! I’m always blown away by how musically Epic(TM) the songs are every time I listen to them and the voice acting is absolutely phenomenal. Maybe God Games didn’t go the way I originally expected it to go but it’s a great piece of work, and I like seeing the depths of character Jorge’s able to convey in each song- even with Zeus!

And the biggest moral of the story for me is to not browse tumblr until my brain breaks the morning after a saga livestream. Good lessons, good lessons.

If you’ve made it this far I hope you enjoyed my God Game ramblings and could see a little bit of my vision with expanding the length of the song!

Also no Athena’s not dead, it’s not denial, it’s called foreshadowing with Calypso’s line and the fact that Athena doesn’t even get *close* to death in the Odyssey- I know Epic’s a loose adaptation but there’s no way Jay would deviate *that* much and kill her off, if Athena’s actually dead I’m gonna flip out probably I’m going to be *so* upset—

[sugar-and-spite]

finally watched the vengeance saga and i am being so, so normal about this. spoiler rambles below the cut. i watched a bunch of different animatics for most of the songs so there will be comments about both the actual songs & official animatics, plus the other fan animatics i saw

not sorry for loving you

first off. CALYPSO. MY GIRL. i'm so glad jorge did her right with this song. i remember adoring calypso in the odyssey, and while epic definitely put her in a more manipulative and antagonistic role than i remember her having, she has a reason. i felt like love in paradise kind of rushed her entire character and i'm so glad she got fleshed out more here.

while she is being manipulative, i definitely don't agree with the people saying she's doing it on purpose. she's been alone for a hundred years, of course she'd be lonely. also like. she's literally never known any other people to know whether she's being manipulative or not, so

also i watched the most animatics for this one and calypso being skinny feels so weird to me, she's at least chubby imo

also extremely funny that jorge got gigi to animate for this one for the stream. gigi being known for having the best circe saga animatics and jorge is like "hm you know who i want to animate this other woman who's manipulating odysseus?" incredible.

and there's this which i said to my bf:

dangerous

"six hundred men, six hundred dead under my command, 'cause i had one goal in mind... [silence]" OKAY YEAH I DIDN'T NEED MY HEART. FUCK.

HERMES IS BACK, BABY!

ximena natzel has the best hermes animatics, the official hermes is good but ximena's is better, if you haven't seen ximena's animatics for "wouldn't you like" and "dangerous" go watch them NOW

they canonized the fluffy winions, i'm not even sure who first came up with that design for them (mircsy was the first one i saw) but they're wonderful and amazing

hermes is just amazing and all of his songs are amazing and this is amazing (can you tell i have a favorite song from vengeance saga)

i love that they also included actual sirens in the official animatic!! the birds with women's faces, those are what sirens actually look like in the myths and mermaid-sirens are more common to see nowadays but it's not The Og, and i'm so so happy they used og sirens (this made me giddy in the same way all the "ruthlessness" animatics with horses in them made me giddy, little-known myth details my beloved)

the callbacks to "keep your friends close"! both musically and lyrically! and the callback to "wouldn't you like" with hermes going "don't thank me" and "good luck!" jorge is always on point with the callbacks

charybdis

took a couple listens for me to really vibe with this, it's kinda filler but that's fine they can't all be bangers

someone pointed out this is the only song we have so far that's 100% solo odysseus with no background vocals or other characters so that's neat

feels like this could've been longer? or fleshed out more? it feels kinda abrupt. but there's gotta be some losers they can't all be winners

get in the water

i need to hear this sung by a woman right now actually so i can be equally bisexual about the original and a female cover.

honestly i don't think i had a single thought in my head through the entire song besides damn. holy SHIT. holy shit this one is good. this is so fucking good.

i lied i had a singular coherent thought (on the second watch): it's subtle, but i think there's a musical callback to the end of "god games" during odysseus's part. when he's begging poseidon to let him go, the music is really similar to when athena begs zeus to let him go at the end of "god games."

six hundred strike

hoooooooly shit. oh my god. what the fuck. not to be bisexual but -

(hottest odysseus has ever been)

he has the power of (the wind) god and anime on his side

with the power of friendship and this jetpack he found -

the callbacks

"you can't kill me." "exactly." HOTTEST ODYSSEUS HAS EVER BEEN

NEXT TO MY WIFE

oh my god. holy fuck. oh my god

anyway this has been rey's (lack of) thoughts about the vengeance saga thanks for joining me i'm so, so normal about this musical

[wizardofsleep]

Second listen through of the Vengeance saga and here are my thoughts

Pre thoughts (only livestream): kinda underwhelming tbh! I did like NSFLY more than i thought I would and Dangerous was amazing as expected but the other songs didn’t match up to my expectations. I get the whole anime angle for 600 strike but it feels… too much? I think the individual character decisions made sense but it didn’t feel cohesive to the entire narrative.

Thoughts after a relisten: definitely feel better about the whole album, I think giving it a fair chance without the expectations I had made me like it more. NSFLY has absolutely gorgeous vocals and music. I see people saying this song justifies calypso (and that’s not ok because her behaviour was still wrong) and I really disagree? It’s just showing her POV and I think it’s still possible to empathise with her while also very much seeing how the things she did were unacceptable regardless. It’s a really nice song and Wangui’s vocals are *chef’s kiss*

Dangerous is probably my favourite song on the saga. No notes I love Hermes I love the vibes I love the subtle emotion behind everything.

Charybdis grew on me immensely, I didn’t like it as much on the first listen but it’s really nice actually and the tone shift at the end is probably my favourite part.

Get in the Water! I will say this song probably disappointed me the most on the first listen because I had high expectations but honestly? It’s a bop. I think the first part of it until “ruthlessness is/mercy upon/ourselves” is fucking incredible. It’s exactly the perfect amount of tension and terror that I wanted. The part after that feels like it could be a different song?? Like it feels like the tension breaks. It’s not even bad, I just feel like that part would have been better at the start of 600 strike than where it was. I like how the open arms reprise was ‘you can relax my friend’ but tbh I don’t understand why we had an open arms/Eury/mom reprise when a Penelope/Telemachus reprise fits better thematically. It still sounds really good though.

600 strike: probably the only song in the entire musical that I dislike. I’m someone who tends to focus more on story/lyrics than music, and while the music and vocals were probably my favourite in this saga, the story just fell flat for me. I’m not gonna talk about how it’s not an accurate adaptation, because I don’t think that matters (not to go too deep into that but tbh i don’t think it needs to be an exact recreation of the odyssey, like I think it’s fine that we deviate and epic is its own thing like that’s not my gripe with it). I know the popular fandom consensus is that it’s badass and this may be an unpopular opinion but I don’t… really want… to hear someone get tortured? It feels gratuitous. I feel like if the intention was to make the audience uncomfortable they definitely succeeded. I think 600 strike is a tragedy- it really is no longer him, as Poseidon said- he’s truly a monster now. Look at what he’s had to become. He’s truly lost a part of himself to get home and I think that’s sad. Last line was a great mic drop though lol.

It’s hard for me to totally encapsulate my feelings. Endings are always difficult in a story and while it missed the mark for me I don’t think that makes it a bad album. If I’m being honest, the music and vocals were really nice- but considering that the lyrics and story are more important to me, I hope you can see why it doesn’t hit as hard for me.

I think the album will grow on me so I’m excited to listen to it.

[ssasides205]

hi, we know why u like vd and dislike sa, but what about caleo?

lemme answer like this

did we need all main characters to be paired up anon?

did we need the calypso chapter at all? does it add to the overall story?

because to me, personally, it feels like the biggest wasted opportunity ever. because riordan already had given us the perfect "oath kept with a dying breath" ever.

I've mentioned this before, but let me take the opportunity to finally talk about it in full.

there's a somewhat known comic that does an excellent job of illustrating this, but I can't remember the name of the artist (listen, they are very into the sunshades and I am not). but the absolute insane mirror aesthetic of Percy begging Nico to give him his word, the way Nico begged Percy to keep his, the parallels?

like, there really didn't have to be any death at all, there didn't need to be a different oath. that could've been it!

not only would the fandom have gone insane abt it, let's be honest, it would have also given Nico a part of the prophecy, and, most importantly, it would've made a lot of sense.

one thing about prophecies in Greek mythos, is that they're not very direct. This is brought up several times in cannon during the PJO series, and is actually revealed to have been the entire premise in TLO

so why would this be any different? especially, when there's a perfect candidate for the oath readily available. One that plays well into the overarching plot, and could have been used to give closure to the whole thing between Percy and Nico, giving the scene between them at the end have that extra layer.

although, the whole making Leo parallel Percy in regards to Calypso does give room for discussion for us valdangelo fans, vis a vis Nico's taste in men. but there were other ways.

to me, the Calypso thing always felt off, even when Percy met her. Mainly bc of what little I remembered of her from the Odyssey back when I was reading the books.

the fact that, in both cases, the two people involved knew basically nothing of each other and still fell in love felt very much suss. I theorized it was part of the curse in both occasions, that the curse did more than just bring the heroes, but also, ensured Calypso would love them.

and, also, I totally forgot that they hadn't saved her in the first series, or more like, I assumed they had but in one of the related side-stories. and I wish her freedom didn't come tied to romance.

like, you see how that reads, right?

this got away from me, but my point is, it felt very much like a last thought kind of deal. like you made the prophecy thing, and needed a promise with a dying breath, and needed a reason and a receiver of said promise? when Nico's promise was?? right there????

I don't think I'll ever be over that.

[koruga]

@mudpuddlenl I hope you don't mind but I've had more time to think and your tags have lit a fire in me to talk about it.

#honestly yeah kinda?#I feel like there’s a lot of. talking parts in the middle of songs#little wolf especially#and then love in paradise feels kinda disjointed with two entirely different vibes#honestly I feel like the time dive should be its own song instead of being put in front of love in paradise#and maybe love in paradise is intentionally disjointed but just. the way it is framed with the time dive makes it feel like the song is#centered around Athena. instead of Calypso and Odysseus#which means I don’t think Odysseus ledge moment gets to shine as much as it could have#also idk I hoped god games parts would get longer the higher level they were#(really was wishing there was a cut in hera’s clip that we knew and it was longer)#but now it just feels like Apollo. Hephaestus and Hera have very short parts#and while Aphrodite and ares have about the same length each. since their levels interact it feels longer#also it feels like Athena never really addressed Aphrodite’s argument separately?#‘a broken heart can mend’ well yeah but his mom is still DEAD Athena#anyways i do like the album overall but I do notice myself skipping to certain song parts

Because I agree with basically all of this, and I need to talk about where I think this saga went wrong. Mostly I've been okay with the deviations from the text -- the Odyssey is an ancient text, and interpretation is necessary for adaptation. But I feel like this saga especially interpreted it in a way that's just...pretty uninteresting, honestly? And in favour of putting a character arc onto Athena, which I understand is seemingly necessary for a deuteragonist but just didn't appeal to me.

I may just be banging on the same old drum here, but I don't particularly jive with the suitors being these older, intimidating men. They're dangerous, but as I read the Odyssey, they only seem to be dangerous in numbers, and realistically, those suitors would be men who were either too young or too infirm to join Odysseus in battle, so at most they'd be ten or fifteen years older than Telemachus himself, and they didn't put up much of a fight in the latter portion of the Odyssey. They've spent the better part of a decade lazing around, eating Penelope's food, not doing much at all, so Little Wolf just didn't particularly hit for me on that front, and Athena's first contact with Telemachus being for battle was kind of eh to me too.

And then Love in Paradise and God Games came, and...

Look. I do try not to be completely Book Good Musical Bad, but one thing I don't feel like most people appreciate is that all the shit that came before now? Odysseus's journey, his story? All of that didn't even happen until Book Nine of the Odyssey. Books One through Four were just Telemachus and Penelope, mostly Telemachus, and Books Five through Eight are Odysseus getting off Ogygia and to relative safety. I realise we needed all that shit beforehand because we're going in mostly-chronological order for the musical, but I don't think Love in Paradise and subsequently God Games should have been in this saga.

Telemachus needs to grow first. In an ideal world, I'd want at least one saga of Telemachus on his own, maybe two if we're willing to stretch it and let him visit Nestor and Menelaus. Athena's there, obviously, but I barely know Telemachus in this musical. I don't care about him yet, and that's a problem. Why does Athena want to help him? You've introduced her leaving Odysseus behind, you've introduced the fact that she's going to have an arc, so why should she care about Telemachus other than 'he's Odysseus's son' when he hasn't done anything?

Ultimately, learning what happened to Odysseus the chapter after he makes that choice to let the rest of his crew die is boring. It's a cliffhanger if you're listening saga by saga, but flowing as one continuous narrative, there's like two songs in between then and now. Telemachus is barely given time to breathe as a character, and then Odysseus is back! But we're not even focusing on him for this song where he's stranded and forced into husbandry, when he gets severe PTSD and is implied to be sexually assaulted. We need to get to God Games, guys! That's the big number we want to end this saga on, so we can't focus on Telemachus's slow growth into a man or Odysseus's descent into misery! We don't even have time to show you Penelope!

And then God Games just...falls so flat for me. This entire album seems like it wanted to show all the best stuff in previews because it didn't have much more than that, and God Games suffers the most from that. I can definitely see why Apollo, Hephaestus, and Zeus's parts weren't previewed -- they're not very good!

I also hoped that the levels would get more difficult as they went on, and it seems like that was the plan? Apollo and Hephaestus were basically nothing, which sucked because why even put them there then. It seemed almost just like an excuse to get Jorge's dad into the album, and I don't think it was worth it -- his mom played the part of Odysseus's mother, and Odysseus's father is in the Odyssey! He could have cast his dad there instead, but like...the vocal performance didn't seem super strong, so I can see why he didn't. But that leaves Hephaestus with a boring part in God Games, and both Hephaestus and Apollo have super flat arguments that don't need to be there.

Aphrodite and Ares had a catchy part! And it seemed like yeah, things are getting harder, maybe Hera and Zeus will be super difficult, but Hera's bit was just a set-up for a Zeus cheating joke, which great. We've never seen that before, and then Zeus's...

Why is Zeus angry? Why does he feel any shame? Hate to bring up the book again, but in the Odyssey, it took this long because it's not until now that Poseidon fucked off long enough to attempt a rescue mission. Zeus adores Athena, and although he fucked Odysseus over in the Thunder Saga, he didn't seem to actually hate him. It was just business -- the crew offended Helios, so they had to die. Now he's super petulant and upset because Athena did what he asked?

Not to mention the lyric change from 'Apollo, Hephaestus, Aphrodite, Ares, Hera, and me' to 'Apollo, Hephaestus, Aphrodite, Hera, or me' which seems to imply that either she only had to convince one of them, or all the others or Zeus, which. She did.

I don't know. That big emotional moment at the end really fell flat for me because I don't know why he was upset. Zeus has no stake in Odysseus, there's no need for him to get so pissy when historically he's been pretty supportive of his favourite daughter. Good music, good framing, but as an adaptation of my favourite story, it's just not doing anything for me.

I'll probably start liking it more later, but at the moment I'm not sure I like the Wisdom Saga as much. There are parts of the songs that I really enjoy, but it feels like they're just smushed together such that I don't enjoy them as a cohesive whole. Also no Penelope, so 0/10.

[desos-records]

Everything Mythologically Inaccurate About O Brother Where Art Thou (2000)

For the record. I adore this movie with all my soul and I know it’s loosely based on the Odyssey and this will basically be me pointing out references to the epic, but it’s the only film adaption I’ve ever seen of the Odyssey and that’s what I’m currently reading, so here we go.

Nice beginning quote, also the beginning of the Odyssey, although specific wording varies between translations

I have two copies of the Odyssey, one by Stanley Lombardo and the other by Emily Wilson (highly recommend her translation)

This seems to be from a translation done in 1961 by Robert Fitzgerald

The trouble with the Odyssey, plot wise, is that the majority of the actual monster-fighting, ship-wrecking Odyssey part is told entirely through flashback and it’s only about a third of the whole epic. It’s not a linear story and this movie is, so we’re going to have to accept that everything is out of order

The Odyssey actually starts with Telemachus, Odysseus’ son, and his own journey to learn whether his father is still alive or not

He visits Menelaus and Nestor, both characters from the Iliad and friends of Odysseus. They both make long speeches and there’s lots of ceremonial hospitality and I can understand why they skipped it

But in Book 5, we finally get to Odysseus, who is trapped on Calypso’s island

Odysseus is then freed from Calypso’s island by order of Zeus, so starting with a jailbreak makes sense

Fun Fact: the song here, “Po’ Lazarus,” wasn’t recorded for the film. It’s a recording of real Mississippi prisoners in 1959 made by the Ethnomusicologist Alan Lomax

After sailing away from Calypso’s island, Odysseus is immediately shipwrecked by Poseidon and he washes up on the shores of the Phaeacians and there’s a long, long period of time spent getting him food and clothes and some damn sleep, which again—I understand why they simplified it

I cannot stress enough how amazingly in character Everett is as Odysseus, literally the man never stops talking

Delmar and Pete are also fantastically in line with Odysseus’ men, who are mostly unnamed, but are frequently characterized as stupid, insubordinate, and lacking in self-control

They could also be analogous with Odysseus’ two slaves, Eumaeus and Philoetius, who help him kill the suitors and take back his house

*a reminder that slavery in Ancient Greece wasn’t racially based. It was still terrible, but it could technically happen to anyone*

I have to assume the push-cart is the equivalent of Odysseus’ raft after he leaves Calypso’s island and the old blind man is Tiresias, the blind prophet that Odysseus meets later when he travels the Underworld

Also the blind man’s line “I have no name” might be a reference to Odysseus telling the cyclops Polyphemus that “He is no one”

Odysseus is told a number of times by several different people that he’s fated to return home, but only after great suffering so this prophecy is a good summary thematically speaking

Tiresias also tells Odysseus that after he returns home, in order to appease Poseidon, he will have to travel again until he meets people who have never seen the ocean and then make sacrifices. This is Odysseus’ Lost Adventure, so to speak, because we have no record of it

The ‘cow on top of a cotton house’ is sort of in line with that part of Tiresias’ prophecy, in terms of ‘you’ll know it’s over when you see something weird’

Is Wash’s house supposed to be Circe’s island? Bit of a stretch

There’s a pig. I think that makes it Circe’s island

There’s no police force after them or deadline in the Odyssey, but there is Poseidon actively working against them and, more or less, a desire to get home as soon as possible

Are the baptists supposed to be the Lotus Eaters? Because Odysseus’ men do join up with them and he has to basically drag them by their ears back to the ship

I think it’s interesting that they characterize Everett as a non-believer since Odysseus is, actually, a favorite of gods like Athena and is super devout and careful about making proper sacrifices and such

The “you might be square with the Lord, but the state of Mississippi is more hard-nosed” point is funny because that’s honestly how the Odyssey ends. Odysseus has killed all the suitors and fulfilled his fate as decreed by Athena and Zeus, but the families of the murdered young men still chase after him demanding retribution. Athena intervenes at the end

Don’t think Tommy is supposed to be anyone in the Odyssey, maybe the multiple bards who sing stories throughout the epic, but he is based on the legends of Tommy Johnson or Robert Johnson, both black blues musicians who were said to have learned guitar from the Devil

Musicians in the Odyssey are said to be given their gifts by the gods, so that tracks

Okay, is THIS blind guy at the radio station supposed to be Tiresias or are they messing with me

“I am a man of sorrow” is a DIRECT line from the Odyssey (B.19, L.119, Wilson) and I’m SO GLAD they made a song out of it

Wait wait wait governor MENELAUS “pappy” O’Daniel?? Hilarious

“Thank god your mammy died giving birth. If she’da seen ya, she’da died of shame” amazing line. But wait, if you’re King Menelaus, are we talking about HELEN here

*Helen and Menelaus only had one child btw, her name is Hermione, which is the feminine version of Hermes*

There’s just something about the Great Depression Era that tugs on my heart and makes me cry, I love it

Odysseus is firstly a PIRATE and a SACKER OF CITIES which means him stealing treasure and what not is in character

Although the particular treasure he ends up with at the end does not come from The Trojan War, but was gifted to him by the Phaeacians, so

Wait a second. Everett’s name is Ulysses Everett McGill, right? Ulysses is the Latin form of Odysseus

Is all that money in the bag TWO dollar bills?? Fucking fantastic

George “Baby Face” Nelson is also a real person, famous gangster and bank robber. Not sure he lines up with anybody in the Odyssey, but my god did they do an excellent job casting. He killed more FBI agents than any person in history. He also was not executed by electric chair, but was shot to death by the FBI

Ohhh the “not the livestock” thing is a reference to Odysseus’ men eating the Sun Cows when they were specifically told not to and all of them dying as consequence

Hey they’re sitting on old busted Greek columns, that’s cool

HOMER stokes. Nice

I KNEW those little boys carrying ice had to be a reference to something. Eudora Welty’s photograph for WPA of two boys carrying ice

Odysseus IS an excellent storyteller

Alright, alright. A note about Sirens. They are not sexy ladies sitting up on rocks. The Odyssey doesn’t even give a physical description, just that they’re monsters who sing at passing sailors, promising their greatest desire. In Odysseus’ case, that is KNOWLEDGE, specifically about his family and friends

Although, funnily enough, Odysseus does come across young girls doing their laundry in a river after shipwrecking. And he is naked at the time. But there is NO seduction happening. He just politely asks if maybe he can borrow some clothes and also could someone point him in the direction of the nearest town, please and thank you

Obsessed with the idea that you have to get Odysseus black out drunk in order to shut him up

Okay, maybe those ladies were supposed to be Circe too—she turns people into pigs (or frogs, in this case) AND sleeps with Odysseus

I spy a Cyclops. Polyphemus, the bible salesman

Which is funny, btw, because Odysseus basically calls Polyphemus godless for breaking hospitality rules and eating several of his men, which does happen here in a way

There is crying in damn near every single book of the Odyssey and it’s a shame there’s so little of it here

*reference to the Carter family, legends of American Folk music*

Odysseus just has a son, Telemachus, but I think the little girls are supposed to be the Graces? The Muses? idk trios of women are really common

I love this because at first Telemachus doesn’t recognize his father either (partly because he’s never actually met him and partly because Athena’s put him in disguise)

Neither does Penelope until Odysseus proves himself by a) winning the archery contest and b) knowing the secret of their marriage bed 

“Not since you got hit by that train!” perfect

“Odysseus died in the war!” Penelope says. *Odysseus, sitting right in front of his family, looking at Athena like she’s a camera on the Office*

Penelope has, like, thirty suitors who showed up to the house one day and just refused to leave until she picked one of them to marry and she can’t get them to leave until Odysseus returns and kills them all

Oh wait, there’s seven little girls. Right, probably the Muses then. Especially since they sing. That’s cute, I love that

If anyone is as big a liar as Odysseus, it’s definitely Penelope. That’s why he loves her. Totally in character

Penny. Penelope. Close enough.

I think it’s hilarious that Everett can’t fight. Especially since Odysseus just. murders all the suitors without much fuss since he’s so great at everything all the time

“Just a drifter, I guess” she says about Everett, which is great because Odysseus shows up disguised as a beggar at first and it’s unclear if Penelope genuinely can’t recognize him or if she’s playing along with his scheme to get the suitors out of the house

“Don’t trust women” is a BIG thing in the Odyssey, unfortunately, which is a little hypocritical of it since it’s main character is a lying, scheming, murdering, pirate and war criminal who cheats on his wife repeatedly

I don’t CARE if Hermes told you to, Odysseus, it’s still a double standard

The movie theater scene reminds me of the bit in the Odyssey where they travel to the Underworld and talk to some of Odysseus’ friends. Agamemnon tells him not to go home lest he be betrayed by his wife and murdered like he was

THERE’S the crying

I… I can’t explain the Klan scene except for, well, Polyphemus gets blinded by a stick that’s on fire, so. There’s that. Maybe they’re Polyphemus’ sheep? The suitors trying to kill Telemachus?? idk

The whole world is not against Odysseus, he’s just a liar who’s too smart for his own good and occasionally his selfishness makes him a little stupid, that’s all

More disguises! I love it

More Penelope not recognizing Odysseus until he proves himself! Excellent!

See, at least Everett doesn’t have to kill a room full of people in order to solve his problems

Oh oh oh, wait, is them having to go get the ring like Odysseus’ Lost Adventure to the people who’ve never seen the sea in order to lift Poseidon’s curse?? Or is it like Odysseus proving he knows that his and Penelope’s marriage bed was made out of a living tree and can’t be moved without cutting it??

See? Don’t go after livestock that ain’t yours

I guess this makes Poseidon the Devil here

Orrr this is when the families of the dead suitors try and kill Odysseus?

The flood at the end is definitely Athena’s deus ex machina though

Couldn’t tell an Odyssey story without a little bit a water, could you?

Ending with the little Muse girls singing with the blind prophet?? Amazing, I love it

Hercules (1997)

Clash of the Titans (2010)

[maskedlady]

things people who haven’t read/studied the homeric poems should know

the iliad isn’t about ten years of war. it’s about fifty-one days from the last year of war. more than nine years have passed since the beginning. neither the recruit of achilles or odysseus nor aulis nor the sacrifice of iphigenia nor the trojan horse and not even achilles’ death feature in it. it actually ends with hector’s burial.

similarly, the odyssey starts during the tenth year of odysseus’ travels, when he leaves the island of the nymph calypso who had kept him there for eight years. while the story of his travels is actually there, it’s a massive flashback that odysseus himself narrates.

odysseus actually only travels circa one year, if you subtract the seven years spent on ogigia, the one year with circe, the various months and bits they camped in other places.

part of the odyssey is actually about odysseus’ son, telemachos, and his quest to find his father. also another part is about odysseus returning to ithaca and killing a bunch of princes who were trying to usurp his throne.

the aeneid is not a homeric poem. it’s styled on the homeric model, but it was written in latin by a roman poet, and the protagonist is technically one of the antagonists from the iliad.

homer never existed.

he isn’t a historical figure, he is a name with a legend attached, to whom these poems are attributed. the poems were written—no, not even written, composed orally by a series of unnamed aoidoi (hm... ministrels?) through the ages.

in fact this is quite obvious when you read the iliad. there are a lot of inconsistencies, like frequent style changes, chapters that have nothing to do with anything else and no influence on the story whatsoever, strange time lapses—at some point it’s midday twice the same day

it is thought that all of these separate fragments were then collected and organized by one person, and this version was then handed down, orally, until the first written edition around 520 b.c.

the mycenean civilization that these poems originate from ended in 1200 b.c. circa

the odyssey was initially part of a whole group of nestoi, aka “return poems”, that were basically the tales of the return of each hero from troy. the odyssey is the only one that remains, though we do know something about the others too from other pieces of greek literature

a warning for the interested. these poems are a pain to read. they are delightful but they are a pain. they were composed orally so they are full of epithets, descriptions, metaphors and similitudes. these acted as fillers to help the aedo of turn reach the length of the verse, make the various characters more recognizable, and also make the poems more comprehensible to the general public, composed mostly of common people who had never actually been in a battle—so battles and duels are often compared to more familiar scenes, like fights between animals.

no i’m not joking

there is one in particular where the screeching army of trojans coming down the hill is compared to cranes migrating over the oceans.

also, the duel between hector and patroclus is one of the “compared to animal fights” scene

when odysseus is about to drown, he talks to his own heart. possibly because it sounds slightly less crazy and more Romantic than just directly talking to oneself.

helen insults paris real often. hector berates him both internally and publicly. in fact everyone insults paris. paris is the local coward and scapegoat. deservedly. i rejoice

everybody loves patroclus. all the kings hate each other but everyone loves him—so much so that they risk their lives over his corpse 

which, mind me, wasn’t something that special in and of itself. it was important to retrieve comrades’ corpses because if the enemy got ahold of your body he’d leave it to rot and be devoured by dogs and crows, which was a huge dishonour (and also possibly barred you from entrance to the afterlife)

so much so that the ancient greek version of “go to hell” is eis korakas, “to the crows” (“may you die, lie unburied, and your body be eaten by crows”)

at some point they hold a truce (possibly several times) so they’ll have the time to collect, burn and bury all the fallen soldiers. 

back to patroclus because i got sidetracked: still. this time it is kind of a big deal because the literal centre of the fighting after patroclus dies is all the major greek heroes playing tug-o-war against hector and his brothers with patroclus’ corpse. the centre of the fighting, people, this is no joke

at some point someone is sent to tell achilles that his lover’s body is in danger so he better get out of your sulk, hurry up and come help the rest of us

achilles going armour-less to the battlefield and screaming for patroclus is enough to send the trojans running.

i am sure that all of you know this but the reason achilles doesn’t have armour is that when hector kills patroclus he takes achilles’ armour, that patroclus was wearing, as spoils of war

so an entire book after that is devoted to hephaestus forging achilles new, better armour so he can actually fight again

look, it is not actually stated that they were lovers, but it’s obvious. in greek culture especially. that was the norm and italian school teachers can get over it and stop omitting it from lessons and school books any time now

odysseus isn’t actually an asshole. sure, a lot of his misadventures were caused by him being too curious and disregarding his comrades’ advice *cough*cyclops*cough* but most of the most destructive events were caused by them disregarding his orders.

“do not kill and eat the sacred cows of apollo! he’d kill us.” guess what they did. guess how it ended 

or when they stopped by eolos’ island. eolos, god of the winds, gave odysseus a flask with all the adverse winds imprisoned inside, leaving free only the one that he needed to take him to ithaca. they got so, so very near, and then odysseus fell asleep and the others opened the thing because they thought there was more treasure inside it, and all the winds came out and blew them halfway across the mediterranean

athena often glamours odysseus to look younger and prettier or older and then again younger. it’s amazing because he always looks either like an old beggar (for camouflage) or like a young and handsome man.

do some maths. at the beginning of the war he must’ve been at least twenty. + ten years of war. + ten years of travel. at the end of the odyssey he is at least forty. by ancient standards that was not young.

odysseus’ whole voyage is basically a pissing contest between poseidon and athena. actually between poseidon and the rest of the gods. poseidon hates him and all the other gods take turns helping him.

odysseus is not an asshole, but the greeks probably considered him a shitty character, because he was clever, shrewd, and the only survivor of his community. the greeks really insisted on the concept of community, the individual doesn’t have worth in and of themself but as a part of society. this is particularly evident when he gets to the cyclops, who are the very antithesis of the greek man, described as uncivilized and living in isolation without assemblies or laws. a lot of emphasis is put on the fact that they live outside of a community.

alternatively, the difference between the iliad and the odyssey (and their respective heroes) signifies the change in greek culture, from the warrior myceneans to commerce and voyage: odysseus represents the victory of intelligence over force, and his qualities are the characteristics, for example, of a merchant

i should perhaps point out that the odyssey was composed much later than the iliad, which is also the reason it has a more complex structure (begins with the gods + telemachos’ quest, we first see odysseus on ogigia, then he recounts his whole voyage in a long flashback triggered by a bard at a feast singing about the trojan war)

oh look i got sidetracked again

back to the trivia!

do not be fooled by madeline miller. patroclus was indeed a warrior, and a very good one at that. and briseis was indeed achilles’ lover, and loved him (that is explicitly stated).

odysseus might have loved penelope but that does not mean he did not sleep around with every woman he met

circe. calypso (by whom he is imprisoned for seven years). and nausicaa princess of the phaeacians falls in love with him. this is engineered by athena 

i don’t think he actually sleeps with her but athena does make him look younger and prettier so she’ll be smitten and welcome him at the palace and give him a bunch of gifts and eventually a ship to take him back to ithaca

in the poem named after him, his own poem, odysseus is always the stranger, the guest, or the beggar.

or all three.

or all three, but it’s a lie and he’s actually at home, the king returned.

despite the iliad being about one and a half months and the odyssey being more than a year + more time taken up by other characters, the iliad is about one and a half times the odyssey.

more to come (maybe)

[itsvioletevergarden29]

I am a little worried that the fact that Calypso here is still clearly harassing Odysseus while the dark aspect of the Circe arc is skipped entirely is going to make more people upset about the Circe saga though. Because I've seen people who didn't like that her character was changed and I understand why. If that had been kept in it would've been a great opportunity to show that no, the "relationship" between Circe and Odysseus in the Odyssey wasn't cheating he didn't have a choice. Although I am 100% certain there would still be people who didn't get it I'm glad it was changed because like I said I love Epic!Circe and wouldn't want her to be a rapist, and I like that Epic!Odysseus had at least one experience with a former enemy that ended peacefully. (I also feel like with pretty much any Greek Myth adaptation you have to separate the mythological versions of the characters from the adaptation's versions otherwise you're going to hate pretty much everyone. I can like the way that Epic!Circe's character and her relationship with Epic!Odysseus was changed for Epic while acknowledging that the original is fucked up because I view them as two totally different entities). But before Love in Paradise was released in full, I didn't think that Epic!Calypso would be characterized even close to the way she is in the Odyssey, mainly because of how Circe's character was changed in her saga. So yeah I could see even more people being upset that Circe was changed *because* Calypso wasn't changed that much.

About Calypso and Circe

Talk of Rape/SA Trigger Warning

So listening to "Love in Paradise" and like...even though the whole Calypso raping Odysseus thing is cut, she still came across as very creepy to me (probably intentionally). Like, it could just be my bias because I love Epic!Circe, but Circe didn't feel nearly as creepy to me in "There Are Other Ways" as Calypso does in "Love in Paradise". And to be fair, this Circe wasn't actually intending to seduce Odysseus, while this Calypso was, but it genuinely feels like Circe respected Ody when he said he had a wife he was loyal to and let him go immediately after that, and they part ways on seemingly good terms. Unlike Calypso who kept pushing Odysseus' boundaries and kept him trapped for seven years. Although, while I don't like Calypso, I will say that I do feel like this version didn't realize how creepy she was being and that she was only making things worse for Ody. (Although I will not accept her calling him that).

[womenintranslation]

In looking at other translations of the Odyssey, I’m certainly struck that there are certain highly debatable interpretations that seem to be pretty common in English versions by men (although not universal), such as presenting Calypso as a sex-crazed hysterical “nymph,” or having Telemachus call the women raped by/who slept with the suitors “sluts” or “whores,” when the original does not do these things. I don’t do those things, but is that entirely because I’m female? I suspect there’s more to it than that. I do tend to assume that female characters are not inherently less interesting than male ones, and I do want to be as clear-minded as possible about gender roles and inequalities in all their complexity and contradiction, in this or any text, as well as other social roles. But I’m not sure that even that necessarily follows from being female. I also think it’s possible, in theory, for a male translator to bring a different perspective to a canonical text, including a perspective informed by a more critical set of ideas about modern and ancient gender assumptions.

Emily Wilson interviewed in Words Without Borders.