#Nessian critical analysis

[mysupremenesta]

How is it not sad to this fandom that Nesta has NEVER ONCE in her life had anyone that will love her unconditionally like every other character has and, as terrified as I am to say this, still won’t because Cassian does not love her unconditionally, or at least show that love unconditionally? Which means the only people she will receive unconditional love from are Gwyn Emerie, a new friendship not something she has ever had before.

And especially with Feyre the second she got to the Night Court she had unconditional and unwavering support and encouragement from the inner circle and from her mate which was not given to Nesta, yet they had only met her a few times in which the only thing she had done which could be considered rude was be cold with them (a product of her fear from the stories she’s heard all her life about Fae) and ignore them when they attempted to start arguments (which is mature) so there was absolutely no reason for her not to get the same treatment.

For Nesta being loved by the inner circle and even her own mate is like walking on a tight rope and she will never be able to express her emotions if they are a product of her treatment from the inner circle because the second she puts one inch out of the mould they want her to fit into Cassian - the person she loves and someone she will crave love from because of the mating bond - will turn his back on her and treat her like he might treat a child or a pet. He turns off his emotions towards her, hiding his own love for her and making her believe she is unloved, the second she apologises for stepping out of line it all comes back again. And Cassian will always hold Rhys above Nesta and even if he doesn’t it will always be something that has affected Nesta because that sort of treatment doesn’t just go away. Nesta received constant ‘tough love’ from the Inner Circle and mainly Cassian and it just doesn’t work. That is not her character, it just pushes her further down into this spiral of self hatred that has been built up from years of constantly feeling unloved and believing everyone hates you. We can see that with Emerie, Gwyn, Azriel, who saw Nesta with no preconceived notions and did not treat her rudely, she quickly opened up to them and called them her friends, she treats them the way they treat her. With Cassian the second he changed his approach of tough love she begins to train and talk to him instead of lashing out. If Nesta had received the same sort of treatment Feyre had received immediately after going to the night court I fully believe she WOULDN’T have struggled nearly as much as she did.

And then with the tough love. If you never show love to someone and even go to lengths where you tell them that everyone hates you, that person is not going to stop their behaviour and become the person you want them to be. They will do the opposite because they feel hurt and depressed and you are making it worse, so they will lash out and they won’t want to listen to you or follow your instructions. How was tough love ever going to be helpful when all a character needs is love, support and comfort? It just so obviously wasn’t.

So Nesta will always feel like she can never say a word against the inner circle, they can upset her and she will feel as if she cannot say a thing until she breaks down and this is because the love that is shown is not unconditional and if they stop showing it Nesta does not feel loved at all. So she’ll feel like she’s on a tight rope, scared to do anything in case Cassian turns his back on her and stops showing her love. Imagine how anxious that could make someone and think about how sad that is. Especially when she genuinely did not think that Elain and Feyre loved her in ACOSF because of the way she was treated. If they do not show love then she feels unloved so now she will be stuck in constant fear of losing that love from her sisters and her mate - someone who should love her more than anyone else in the world but wouldn’t put her above the rest of the inner circle.

[wingsdippedingold]

The thing that always gets me about SJM is that she says she loves Nesta so much, but at every point Nesta is degraded or self-hating.

The way Nesta is written and people react to her, it’s pretty clear that she’s not actually a bitch but just guarded and cautious of an unfamiliar/ hostile environment.

SJM often writes scenes like this (screenshot stolen from @theladyofbloodshed )

In this Nesta’s in an odd position, where she’s portrayed as the victim of Mor’s ire. However, the characters that regularly antognize Nesta (Amren, Rhysand, Mor, etc.) are never acknowledged to be antagonistic towards her, only that Nesta herself is antagonized. Nesta’s character exists in a weird limbo where she’s meant to be a a wrongfully hated character to the reader, but the people who do wrong her are also supposed to be in the right.

SJM wants to write Nesta to be the underdog mc who defies her haters and becomes someone beloved, but the issue is she’s hated by characters the narrative wants you to also love, and whom Sarah can not bring herself to let ever be in the wrong, because then it would break the idea that they’re infallible and make the rest of their faults also up for criticism.

At every point where she’s put in a bad position, it’s acknowledged that the blame is not hers, but the narrative doesn’t place the blame anywhere else, essentially making what happened entirely a product of Nesta and no other character’s actions. We see how dreadful Nesta feels in ACOSF, much of it at the hands of the ic, and the narrative wants us to sympathize and understand her situation, but with no outlet to fault her situation towards the ic and no attempt to make it known that these feelings that are a product of the ic’s actions are directly a product of the ic.

SJM also writes Nesta to be one of the only characters who self-reflect on their actions and find fault within themselves. None of the ic ever introspect on their actions and effect on other courts and people, contributing to Nesta being the wrong ones and them being correct, simply because the narrative has not made the effort to explore wether or not they’re wrong, whereas it has with Nesta. Nesta’s actions were explored and allowed to be negative because it is what allows her to change her mind, but because she’s the only one changing her mind, she only becomes more and more fitting of the ic’s standards and the series’s idea of moral correctness.

The inverse is also an issue because Sarah writes the ic to be “morally gray”, which grants them the excuse of “you can’t expect them to always be perfect/good, they’re supposed to be morally gray” but the issue with that notion and archetype in this case is that the never face any repercussions or criticism by the narrative, but rather the people opposing them, effectively establishing them as the moral high ground. You cannot defend them as “morally gray” when the narrative has done nothing more than to portray them as always in the correct even in their “morally gray actions.” Discussing their character in that way while not acknowledging how the narrative treats them absolves them of their own faults and is a slippery slope when analyzing the characters in the story.

This is one of the reasons I think so many people find it hard to like Nesta or actually sympathize with her like SJM wants; because their favorite character hates Nesta, though acknowledged to be unjustly, the character themself is not acknowledged to be unjust, therefore portraying their actions to be correct.

This was written really quickly and I just woke up from a nap, but if anyone else wants to discuss this topic, I’d love to see it!

[theweeklydiscourse]

What Makes Feyre’s Pregnancy Plotline in A Court of Silver Flames so Upsetting?

The answer is that the events and outcome concerning Feyre’s pregnancy speak to a fear of one’s loss of autonomy, specifically one’s reproductive autonomy. Furthermore, this plotline demonstrates Maas' consistent prioritization of her male characters at the expense of her female characters. Multiple factors make this subplot feel particularly uncomfortable and upsetting, but I can condense them into three main points that converge to create one frustrating scenario.

1. Rhysand and the Question of Choice

From ACOMAF onwards, the reader is made aware of Rhysand’s unusually progressive politics and his attention to the autonomous choices of women. This is demonstrated through his selection of counsel, appointing Mor and Amren in roles of authority, and eventually crowing Feyre as High Lady of the Night Court. In addition to this, we are shown his emphasis on choice through his interactions with Feyre. Rhysand repeatedly reminds Feyre that she can choose, that she can make an autonomous decision that he will respect. So, it is these positive features of Rhysand that make the pregnancy subplot of ACOSF so disturbing.

He, and the Inner Circle by extension, purposefully omit the information that Feyre’s pregnancy will turn deadly and never volunteer the information to her. During Cassian’s meeting with Rhysand and Amren, we are shown their thought process behind withholding information from Nesta (and Feyre by extension) According to Amren, it is not lying because they are technically not telling lies in the traditional sense, only withholding information.

While this is about Nesta, the reader can see the parallels between both cases. The choice to lie by omission reveals that both Amren and Rhysand are aware of the dishonesty of their actions, choosing to mitigate it slightly on a technicality. It feels distinctly like a loophole in Rhysand’s previous promises to Feyre, making this act feel more deceitful while demonstrating Rhysand’s willingness to undermine Feyre’s authority as High Lady. If Rhysand had a condition or illness that would eventually kill him, informing him of it would be certain, you wouldn’t even consider the possibility of not telling him. However, because Feyre is pregnant, she is not afforded the same autonomy.

Wanting to keep Feyre in blissful ignorance is not a sufficient reason, especially when Feyre is still of sound mind and can advocate for herself. Rhysand’s reasoning sounds noble, but in reality, it is just benevolent sexism. It doesn’t matter if he thinks it will cause Feyre stress, she NEEDS to be aware of what’s going on and the fact that the news will ruin her peaceful pregnancy is of little consequence when her life is on the line. Rhysand prioritizes his feelings and implicitly gives himself executive authority over Feyre’s pregnancy, demonstrating his disregard for her autonomy and choices. This action directly contradicts the progressive beliefs Rhysand stated in previous books and is a betrayal for the reader as well as Feyre.

2. The Infantilization of Feyre

The omission of this critical information, good intentions or not, is based on a belief that Feyre would not be competent enough to handle such a pressing situation in her pregnant state. Amren claims that the stress and fear could have physically harmed Feyre, but such a claim assumes that Feyre would not have the fortitude or ability to handle the situation.

Amren's explanation demonstrates a belief that Feyre's input on the matter would be irrelevant and pointless because it prevents Feyre from offering any. It is a plan that assumes Feyre will not be able to add anything meaningful to the solution and that it would be less harmful to her if she was kept out of it. This is infantilizing and paternalistic because Feyre has proven herself to be capable of coping under pressure and happens to be an unprecedented magical anomaly. Feyre’s access to pertinent medical information should not be revoked and it is insane that Madja her physician, actively misleads her with Rhysand’s consent.

This infantilization of a pregnant character echoes how pregnant women have been infantilized throughout history. It is a terrifying thought to imagine that your bodily autonomy could be stripped from you in the name of serving your supposed best interest. Rosemary’s Baby is one of the most famous horror movies of all time and it explores this exact topic, the same is true for the short story The Yellow Wallpaper, both stories capture the horror of reproductive/medical abuse that still happens to women today.

3. The Aftermath & Prioritizing Male Rage

Lastly, one of the most disturbing elements of this subplot is the way the text consistently prioritizes and coddles the violent rage of male characters at the expense of female characters. This is on full display when Rhysand flies into an intense rage after Nesta reveals the truth to Feyre. Although Nesta can be faulted for her harsh phrasing, let it be known that even Feyre felt that she did the right thing and was expressing her anger at the paternalistic and unjust practices of the Inner Circle. However, Nesta is still subjected to severe physical and emotional punishment in the form of a grueling hike where she is left to stew in her guilt and suicidal ideation despite Feyre ultimately not faulting her.

Feyre admits that Rhysand “majorly overreacted” and that she wanted Nesta back in Velaris. And yet, Nesta is still punished. But why? Will Rhysand or any of the Inner Circle be punished for betraying Feyre? Why, if Feyre agreed that Nesta was right to tell her, would she ever need to be subjected to a severe punishment when she was justified in what she did?

This is a particularly telling detail that compels me to ask: is this punishment about Feyre’s feelings or Rhysand’s? Why is it that Rhysand’s “overreaction” needs to be assuaged by punishing Nesta? What I observe from this passage is the characters prioritizing the feelings of a male character and placating him with the suffering of a female character, even when he wasn’t the one who was hurt in that situation. Feyre asks Cassian to tell Rhysand that the hike will be Nesta's punishment as though it isn't truly a punishment, but it undoubtedly is.

Throughout the hike, Nesta is in a silent spiral of guilt and self-hatred, Cassian never tells her that Feyre is alright and that Rhysand overreacted, letting her dwell in it alone. He hardly speaks to her, he pushes her to the point of exhaustion and is somehow surprised that Nesta shows signs of suicidal ideation.

This isn't constructive at all, it is not evidence that Cassian cares about Nesta's well-being, and the scenes of Nesta internally repeating that she deserves to die and that everyone hates her are nothing but gratuitous and disgustingly self-indulgent. The text basks in Nesta's suffering, even when she was in the right and this hike only happened to placate Rhysand who wronged Feyre in the first place.

Hindsight am I right? Fuck off. A more productive resolution to this matter would be for Feyre and Nesta to talk it out ALONE. Feyre could express her feelings to Nesta directly and they could find a solution together, that way Feyre’s situation could be centered on the two sisters working together. Cassian can see that Feyre is alright, she’s obviously upset, but she didn’t crumble like he expected and that makes it completely baffling that he would punish Nesta anyway. It’s a solution that prioritizes his and Rhysand’s feelings as opposed to Feyre’s, making it not about a perceived transgression against Feyre, but against Rhysand.

In Conclusion

This topic has already been discussed at length by many people in the fandom, but it is a topic that still stays on my mind with how upsetting it is. It is a stunning example of the misogynistic undertones in Sarah J Maas’s writing and makes reading a very straining experience due to her obvious bias towards certain male characters. Not even her main character matters when Rhysand is factored into the situation, his emotions are always centred by other characters and is permitted to betray his wife and get off scot free.

Feyre’s reproductive autonomy is violated, and Maas doesn’t bat an eye. But when Nesta rightfully reveals the truth to Feyre, everyone loses their mind. Both Nesta and Feyre have their autonomy stripped away from the, by way of the Inner Circle’s paternalism, and when Nesta advocates for herself and Feyre, she is punished severely. Being put in her place as the hierarchy is strengthened.

[arson-09]

one of the many issues i find with sjms writing (and subsequently her fans) is that a character has to be perfect to be loved (this is acotar specific) hear me out ((apologies in advance for the somewhat rambling and nonsensical bits. its late lmao)

Just about everything Feyre and Rhysand do is justified. Rhysands entire list of evil actions from acotar is retconned. Him murdering those winter court children was suddenly by an unnamed daemati whos never brought up again, his sexual assault of feyre was “for her protection”, and in general the way he treated her UtM is okayed (sa is never justifiable, even in fictional media) and him keeping very important information about Feyres body from her is fine because he was doing it to spare her feelings (also never ok to keep information of ones body from the individual)

Feyre is allowed to destroy the spring court. No matter how you feel about Tamlins character the actions she took were extreme, petty, and useless. She collectively punished the citizens of the spring court because of her relationship with Tamlin and she believed him to be allying with Hybern. Which was hinted to her to be false and she could have read his mind at any point. Feyre also is a unreliable narrator but her word is taken as truth. When she has magical outbursts its nothing, she can treat her supposed friends like shit but shes still the better friend.

Together they constantly spout how perfect the other is. Especially Feyre about Rhysand, maybe its the mating bond but the bond is how sjm communicates her feelings about the characters (which i feel is evident in the Nessian bond) Feyre says rhysand is Good and Justified in everything he does, so you the reader must believe it too, right?

The rest of the Inner Circle also falls into this. Mor is allowed to unfairly treat Nesta like shit, Cassian is unquestioned when it comes to his mistreatment of his mate, azriel is a background tapestry, and amren is a whole different issue tbh.

Nesta is the outlier. She is not perfect and we know it because of how mistreated she is by the people that surround her. Cassian is a horrible partner, letting rhysand do and say what he wants to her, restricting her food and being very neglectful of Nestas mental health. Nesta is a flawed character but shes not an antagonist. Her flaws does not call for this sort of treatment. It is disgusting how sjm portrays Nestas character and her “healing arc”. Sjm says she loves nesta, but her treatment says otherwise.

Tamlin receives the brunt of this treatment. He is a flawed character but is not evil. Hes not even a real antagonist, just because he is not friends or on good terms with Feyre and Rhysand does not make him such. His allying with Hybern is used as reasoning for his mistreatment when its clear as day hes a double agent. Tamlin, while he struggles with emotional regulation, anger issues and communication is a very good high lord and his personal relationship with a character does not change that. His actions towards feyre are often called abusive but sjms writing fails to bring this observation to fruition. She fails to actually make him abusive and antagonistic because she accidentally writes her own outs by justifying similar behaviors from other characters.

If you have spent anytime on the majority side of the fandom you have seen the Feyre and Rhysand vs Nesta and Tamlin mentality. Nesta and Tamlin are hated while Feysand are treasured and its because sjm makes a perfect character for you to love so why would you root for the flawed characters hated by the narrative? Nesta and Tamlin are far more nuanced and interesting due to their imperfections, dislike by the narrative, and hatred from the majority fandom. (To note, Nesta and Tamlins characters are different ((although they have some striking similarities)) but their treatment is very equal. Which is why i, and many other people in the fandom compare and combine them so much)

Feyre and Rhysand through the narrative and fans are perfect and can do no wrong. Tamlin and Nesta are frankly evil and undeserving of love. Its intriguing to see this behavior and its almost unique to the acotar and booktok fandom. Which is why i find myself so focused on Tamlin and subsequently the fandom. its so odd and something i havent seen before that it gets stuck in my little adhd brain.

[ladydeath-vanserra]

yes yes YES. we love critical thought analysis of Nessian

[ae-neon]

I was complaining about acomaf to my irl bestie and specifically talking about how Rhysand "teaches" Feyre how to read

And she goes "eww, why didn't she (SJM) make it so he (Rhys) writes nice things about her (Feyre)"

AND LIKE NO? SHE'S SO RIGHT??

It's because everything is about HIM.

The narrative doesn't even let Feyre really deal with her trauma under the mountain because full doing so would mean acknowledging what he did to her

These books are supposed to be FANTASY ROMANCE YA and are just bad in each of those 3 categories

TW: domestic abuse

I recently realised that my own unwillingness to personally condemn Cassian even tho I'm a Nessian anti is because of how abuse apologia works. Like I've seen him be nice to other people so he can't be that bad right??

Obviously it depends on the degree of critical analysis and on the degree to which you apply irl morality to the text

But honestly even in my harshest takes I've never considered Cassian hitting Nesta (for example) but their relationship shows telltale signs and he's already emotionally abusive to her? Already employs methods of isolation and breaking? Like no of course in a few years he'd physically hurt her that's just how abuse works.

These books are at best, badly written, and at worst, straight up damaging. It wouldn't even be a big deal, but they're YA, they're marketed towards young and deeply impressionable people.

[unhealthyfanobsession]

nesta stans are the only ones who care about the fact that our male li was problematic. and i think it’s very telling how young the rest of the fandom is because a lot of male love interests throughout all her series’ are extremely problematic and abusive and do things that shouldn’t be redeemable AT ALL but cassian’s the only one who ever really gets heat for anything and while it can be aggravating if you come to just have fun and not look too deeply, i really do enjoy and appreciate that some side of the sjm-universe fandom have FINALLY started to acknowledge how shitty her male love interests are to the girls.

I think this is SO TRUE!! I 100% believe that the Nessian, and Nesta specifically, fandom tends to be older and, in my experience, more educated. Not that these things are always indicative of a deeper analysis, but I think having more life experience moves people beyond a black and white interpretation. And anyone interested in black and white, quite honestly, wouldn’t like Nesta. Feyre is young. I always say it. She is black and white and righteous and sure of her small world view the way we all are/were at that age. She’s 19 so SJM can write sex scenes, but she was fully written as YA 16/17 and that’s where some of the issues come in (also the massive plot holes surrounding her childhood, timing of things, and the changes in her character between books but yknow). ACOTAR could’ve aged into adult with ACOSF and made it a story that actually grapples with adult issues, but it chose not to for financial and marketing reasons. Age-groups aren’t about explicit or violent content, they are about what age group would resonate with the inner monologue of the protagonist. Feyre is YA. Nesta isn’t. And she shouldn’t have been pushed into that category (“new adult” though they may have claimed it to be)

And 100% the women who like Nesta being older means the LI gets criticized by 20-30 year olds instead of 14-19 year olds, and that group simply has different expectations and is excited, sexually and romantically, by different things

(Obviously this is all a generalization and ofc some young readers are worlds more advanced than other older ones, but this is more of a general rule thing.)

[bookofmirth]

"Let the story guide you instead of shaping the story so it supports your theories."

I noticed that since ACOSF came out, people have started to take analysis to a whole new level. They don't only pull out the most irrelevant quotes from the books and try to connect them with other random quotes, but also seem to focus on details that aren't meant to set up anything. They go out of the way just to prove their point.

Analysing is, of course, not a bad thing, but the thing is we never had to do it to that extent. Both Feysand and Nessian were obvious. I didn't have to start analysing colours, random objects and syntax to realize that they are endgame. It was obvious, because of their interactions and the tone used in their scenes. This is Sarah's writing style. She has a tendency to force the tone on the reader, so usually it is pretty clear how you are supposed to feel. She is definitely not going to change her pattern for one specific couple.

I think what happened with ACOSF is that some people went into it expecting things to happen, but most importantly went into the book looking for hints. This can be dangerous, because you end up misinterpreting scenes by shaping them so they fit the theories you made up in your head.

All this makes me quite certain Gwynriel is going to happen. Did they have a lot of scenes? No. However, reading their scenes made me feel the same way I felt reading about her other pairings. It is this indescribable feeling you have when you feel the need to look up if they become a thing in the future and that is proof enough for me.

Calling it "analysis" is being generous, tbh. And I don't want to sound pretentious but... I'm going to go with it here, because seriously, some of the so-called analysis I have seen of this series has my eyes rolling out of my head. It's like you said, the most random ass quotes, single words taken out of context, acting as if characters only exist to bone one another. And the theories that are questions on top of questions on top of "perhaps" and "If this and if this and if this, then..." WHAT.

The curtains are just blue!!!!! They are just blue curtains!!!!!!

It's great practice to analyze a book in a fandom, it's a pretty low-stakes environment to work on analysis skills, but you have to have evidence. And you have to test that evidence, keeping in mind context. A theory that rests on suppositions that rest on single words taken out of context is not it.

Just in general, I see the lack of new theories the last few months for elucien/gwynriel as a positive. We don't have to keep digging through the books to prove our point, reinterpreting books from 4-5 years ago as if that's suddenly going to erase what happened in Az's POV. Elucien are mates. "You're the new ribbon, Az." The end! That's literally all I need to know.

And as you pointed out, there is just a feeling you get. Logic honestly only goes so far when it comes to a ship. Characters either seem right for each other, or they don't, and we are going to like the characters together, or we won't.

She has a tendency to force the tone on the reader, so usually it is pretty clear how you are supposed to feel. She is definitely not going to change her pattern for one specific couple.

Sarah is a pretty straightforward writer. In fact, one of my most frequent criticisms of her writing style is that she can be SO heavy-handed with her descriptions. Every time I see someone say that she likes to leave clues, she's the queen of foreshadowing, every little detail matters, I want to gouge my eyes out. No! Just no! If literally nothing was consistent from acotar to acosf, then she would be a shitty planner and writer. OF COURSE there are things that remain consistent, that continue from one book to the next. That's NORMAL. There is no need to act like there is a hidden meaning behind every single word ever. They're just setting themselves up for disappointment.

🎶 it's not that deep 🎶

[talkfantasytome]

Going to delete ask posts that directly linked other people's posts, based on this feedback and suggestion (which I thoroughly appreciate!), as I'm not trying to point fingers at anyone or directly tell a specific person they're wrong. I'll repost the general content, with a summary of what was asked, starting with this post.

Anon Ask: Some people are saying that SJM has confirmed Vassien by saying that she'd like to do retellings of firebird legends, swan lake, and Vasilisa the Beautiful, using some shots of her comments. What are your thoughts on this? And the time on facebook that Sarah said E\ain and Lucien have a lot of "tension, growth, and healing to be found (together)".

The most important thing to consider here is timeline. Both of the twitter shown were made in April of 2015. The first one is, honestly, fairly irrelevant. First of all, she's just saying fairy tales she might like to retell. And, for the record, she has also said she'd like to do a retelling of The Little Mermaid, yet often people disregard that as an argument for Gwynriel. So, either her comments on what she'd like to do a retelling of matter, or they don't.

And, if they're saying that those comments are foreshadowing a Vassa + Lucien book, then clearly The Little Mermaid comments are foreshadowing a Gwynriel book. And then...where's E\ain's?

E\ain is getting a book, so which fairy tale gets the short straw?

Or, maybe, the story won't be exactly like the fairy tale.

I do think that both of those comments are important, but Sarah said she wants to do a retelling.

That could literally mean anything. All that tells us is that she will take themes and ideas from the story. I'm not saying Vassa won't be important in a later book, but Sarah can retell the story any way. She could have Vassa betray E\ain, get Koschei to transfer the curse over to the middle Archeron, and now E\ain is the swan on the lake (cause, come on, E\ain's def. a bit swan-like), and Lucien has to rescue her. Or, maybe Jurian is the one that rescues Vassa while Lucien and E\ain deal with Koschei?

There are so many options in a retelling that to say SJM telling us she wants to do a retelling of these stories is a clear sign that Vassa + Lucien are endgame is, honestly, not a very critical analysis.

I'm going to address this tweet next:

This twitter exchange happed April 30, 2015. ACOMAF was published in May of 2016. This post can not be used as foreshadowing of Vassa + Lucien, because it happened before we found out E\ain and Lucien are mates. That "at some point further down the road" literally means "any time after book 1".

People keep using this tweet and presenting it as if Sarah's response came recently. They're spreading misinformation - it may not be purposeful, they may not have seen or noticed the date, but this twitter exchange can't be used as proof that Lucien's person has to be someone other than E\ain, because when it was made we did not know about the Lucien and E\ain possibility.

That doesn't mean it definitely is talking about E\ain, but my point is that this is not proof of Vassa + Lucien, of someone else + Lucien, because of when it was posted.

As for other comments on retellings Sarah would like to do - it's the same argument as the first one. Sarah said she wants to do a retelling of the firebird and swan like. We all know this. It's not new information. People who are saying Vassa + Lucien won't happen aren't ignorant of this fact. We're well aware, and we're also well aware of every other thing Sarah has said, mentioned, foreshadowed, and we're tying it all together. Focusing solely on stories Sarah has mentioned she'd like to retell - not confirmed she will retell - and ignoring everything else doesn't provide a solid analysis. You have to weave how those stories would fit into the grander scheme, and look at the other surrounding factors as well.

And, again, we need to remember that Sarah can do whatever the hell she wants in terms of the story and how she chooses to retell a fairy tale. I mean, how often is Little Red Riding Hood turned into a werewolf story? And sometimes even Red is the wolf?

Writers use fairy tales as a base, a foundation, but then they make it their own. No writer is going to tell the fairy tale exactly how it first was. They're going to adjust it...a lot...to make it their own story.

I'd also like to point out that both times she mentions Vasilisa, she says "Vasilisa the Beautiful". The first time she also said 'the Brave', but the second, solely 'Beautiful'. Vassa is beautiful, of course, but one of E\ain's defining characteristics is her beauty. Even in ACOSF it was again mentioned, discussed, about how her beauty made others hate her.

Could Vassa be Vasilisa...of course. However, I think people are a bit blinded by the similarities in names. Remember, Vasilisa the Beautiful wasn't the firebird - those are different stories. And, honestly, after doing a bit of research into the tale, I'm starting to get more and more sure of the thought that the character who would portray Vasilisa is E\ain.

I think I'm going to do a post on it...

In the later comment on retellings she'd like to do - which we know came after the first as the first came out in August 2015 and that story she's telling was given after the second set of books was confirmed - I also find it interesting that she said Vasilisa the Beautiful (specifically) and Swan Lake, subbing out the firebird.

Why would she do that? Perhaps because she's already brought in the firebird pieces she planned to bring in. We already know that retelling, and how it's come to play. Vassa is a firebird by the curse.

I'm not saying it couldn't end in a Swan Lake thing, as that is what the curse reminds me of. But, personally, I think the fact that she's saying Swan Lake now is also symbolic of something more, possibly another character getting trapped by Koschei.

As for the other piece you asked about, I don't have much to say about it, because it feels like the closest we'll come to an elucien confirmation.

That was also posted a while ago, back when ACOMAF came out. So, it's not like this is recent information Sarah is providing us. However, we know that Sarah can sometimes end up choosing endgame based on gut and things that just hit her. Cassian and Nesta - literally didn't know about them until she wrote them on the same page and was like "oh shit". So Sarah saying that she and Lucien didn't see E\ain coming...I'm sorry, but that feels almost more telling than even the next part of the sentence - where she says they have growing and healing to do together.

That's so huge. And we haven't seen that yet. We've only really seen the tension.

Sarah said this back when ACOMAF came out. And it was around writing or publishing ACOWAR that she got the okay for the second set of books (I think?). Which means she was likely thinking about the longer-term stories before that. Which would explain why we didn't get that growth and healing in ACOWAR.

Instead, she left them in a spot where it seemed like a possibility, and then for the later books has just added more tension. But that journey is still there. She's had it planned for so long. And yes, maybe she could change her mind, but we only know of two cases where she did just that:

Az and Mor

Nesta and Lucien

For Az and Mor it was because she decided to make Mor bisexual and unable to be in an emotional relationship with a male. This was due to complaints over diversity. It's the closest Sarah's probably come to 'fanservice' - except, admittedly, this is so not fanservice. Fanservice is doing something like, say, having Voldemort and Bellatrix have a secret love child despite the fact that Voldy never once came off as having any form of romantic or sexual feelings for her or anyone, ever. (Seriously, that guy was asexual and that is a hill I'll die on.)

Adjusting a character due to legitimate complaints and concerns on diversity, not just fanservice. It's more a full on social service, really, to try and provide that representation better. Yes, it wasn't done in the best way, but she did make an attempt.

The second one - Nesta and Lucien. That was her general plan, until she put Nesta and Cassian on page together. Then it all went out the window. Just like all of Nesta's thoughts when she saw Cassian. Just like Cassian's entire brain when he saw Nesta. 👀

And we get it, because we see it too.

So, while Sarah could have changed her mind about E\ain and Lucien, the only reasons she'd do that don't yet apply. She's already made a change for the diversity complaints, and I don't see her doing that with these two. As for finding out they actually belong with someone else when she sees them on page - well, that hasn't happened yet. She made the E\ain + Lucien decision after we see E\ain and Azriel interact, so clearly Az is not that for E\ain. And we've seen Lucien and Vassa on page together. There's nothing there except Lucien being pained about her curse - which, yeah, she's his friend. How often is one IC member described as looking pained for another? Or thinks about how much it hurt them to see their friend hurt?

But we know what it looks like when the chemistry is so undeniable it will adjust Sarah's plans. And if you're not sure - go back and read all the Nessian scenes in ACOMAF. And then see the one scene where Lucien and Vassa are on page together - I think you'll find there's another male there that, with Vassa, rings closer to the Nessian home.

There was no on page chemistry between Vassa and Lucien, and certainly not enough to change Sarah's mind. Which would also mean E\ain already wasn't meant for Az, which is likely why no one arguing for Vassa + Lucien seems to care as much about that, because most people who ship them are already dead set on E\ain + Azriel.

So, there you have it, my point of view/rant on those two pieces. But it's always important to look at the context of a post, and especially the "source material" people use to provide proof. It's why I tend to stick to the text where I can, and only use SJM statements that don't have an expiration date to their importance. SJM saying something about how she loves happily ever afters, for example, no expiration date. SJM telling us in 2015 that there is someone special for Lucien down the road - an expiration date after the first sign of a possible love interest for Lucien. Once E\ain was declared to be his mate, that statement became irrelevant, because regardless of whether it will be E\ain or not, you can no longer state that it's clearly hinting at someone else, since E\ain is a love interest for Lucien.

[vidalinav]

One of the main selling points for nessian was that cassian saw nesta so when sjm made him so obtuse to her suffering,really weakens his character imo.

Yeah... I mean. I think so too. Because there’s definitely a difference between ACOMAF/ACOWAR Cassian to ACOFAS/ACOSF Cassian. It’s very odd to me.

I know someone commented on one of my posts that they didn’t think Cassian lacks emotional intelligence like I claimed and I wrote a giant analysis so to speak, about emotional intelligence and Pre-ACOFAS Cassian and Post-ACOFAS Cassian, but I never posted it because at that point I was like ehh... wtf cares. I’ve ranted enough. It doesn’t matter in the slightest. It was way too long. 

But there was a time I remember before ACOFAS, where a lot of the fandom was like the IC treat Cassian like he’s dumb. Like he’s just the comedic relief, or he’s just the person who sleeps around, who would sleep with Feyre yadda yadda, who don’t really validate his own feelings either, because with Feyre he was this lovable person who was very charismatic and I dare say emotionally intelligent. But with the IC, he was set in a role. There was a good amount of dialogue in ACOMAF about how they perceived Cassian, and it could of been friends speaking to friends, but it definitely didn’t seem like it. 

But in ACOFAS and beyond, it really felt like the ignorance set in. Like he was made to be the dumb character. I don’t know if that was because conflict needed to be made, because the whole of the IC was  unempathetic and that was a theme. I don’t know what it was. But there are many instances that I feel ACOWAR Cassian wouldn’t have been like that. There are so many times where Nesta is so obviously hurting that I don’t see how you wouldn’t connect dots and then change your own behavior accordingly, if nothing but being more sympathetic or even pitying or considering that Nesta is a victim of circumstance. But the theme as I’ve said many times in nicer ways of ACOSF, was “we’re not going to change, you’re going to change.” 

Prime examples of Cassian’s lack of emotional intelligence was “Starving won’t bring your father back to life” HHAAHA I have to laugh, and then being given the evidence in three books that Nesta is a prideful, private person and then knowing she is suffering, knowing that she has suffered some sort of assault, which he himself has acknowledged and then bringing her to train in front of a bunch of men who are misogynistic and who’s own women won’t train either, and then being like WHY NESTA? WHY AREN’T YOU TRAINING? Why sit on that rock? and then not even asking her. LOL. Stupid. 

And then... the fire. He literally notes in his own POV at least twice that she stays away from it, or she asks to move away and he doesn’t connect that she has some problem with it... until she explicitly tells him. MmmK. 

And then with the marriage vs. mating bond, he notes that she is uncomfortable, he says “what spooked you?” or whatever so he knows that she’s obviously troubled in some way and she’s literally trying to tell him, and he’s like.... nah, I’m going to keep pushing and then he’s like “shackled.” Oy. 

And in ACOFAS, the whole scene with the present for solstice and her “bullshit behavior” when they literally didn’t talk to her the entire time. They didn’t even try, and he’s over here like “I hope you try next year” or whatever. HAHAH. Cue maniacal laughter. 

Like I understand you certainly wouldn’t know what goes on in Nesta’s head, but... is he that stupid to not connect dots from what he already knows? Especially from the male who visited the families of soldiers who died, who mourned them, who felt guilty, who understood Mor’s discomfort in the triangle to be the buffer, because he explicitly says that he played the buffer in ACOSF, so he was aware of the situation, who was actually a lot nicer and sweeter and patient with Feyre, offering in turn to train with him, because he understood the poverty, what she did, the killing of the fae, how that might have affected her, who literally kept going back to Nesta even after she was like get away from me in ACOWAR, because he understood that she had been violated, and no one else validated that except him. Where was the validation in this book? 

Where was that Cassian?

He was kind I admit after moments of stupidity in ACOSF, but that doesn’t make him emotionally intelligent. Caring is not the same thing as empathy. But yeah... I really don’t understand why that was his MO in ACOSF, obliviousness... I would have appreciated it more if it was Cassian showing explicitly that he cared about Nesta and understood her pain, even if he didn’t understand why she was pushing him away, if it was less of Amren telling him to keep reaching out his hand, and him just being like No I need to reach out my hand, because she’s been through a war and I have known war all of my life. I’ve been through that aftermath many times. I’ve seen what it does as any kind and charismatic general would. But unfortunately no critical thought went into this book and the Cassian in ACOWAR is no longer.

[g-perla]

From “Nessian Shipper!!” to “Nessian…Shipper??”

This...is going to be a long one so strap in.

Years ago when ACOMAF came out and the kind people of tumblr posted screenshots of the Wings and Embers short, I found myself looking at Nesta and Cassian, considering the idea of them being romantically and physically involved, and found myself with the following thought; that’s my SHIP. These feelings were reinforced throughout the smattering of brief interactions between the two we got in ACOWAR, probably until the very end where it was unclear if Cassian had gone to see Nesta before or after she headed up the stairs seeming distinctly not ok. That wasn’t a very big deal though. For all I know he did, and she pushed him away, or maybe they did have a talk. Feyre’s perspective is very limited after all. This didn’t really stop my Nessian shipper heart at all.

My Nessian shipper heart became compromised in ACOFAS and in the teaser to ACOSF. I still haven’t re-read ACOFAS so I just want to make it clear that I’m still dealing with 2+ years of accumulated messy, largely unexplored feelings about this ship. That being said, I wasn’t very impressed by Cassian’s behaviour towards Nesta. The interactions between them we were shown left me questioning the stability of a ship I had previously loved with reckless abandon. I questioned Cassian, I questioned Nesta, I questioned their independent trajectories, and them as a couple in the context we were given. My conclusion was that I could no longer really ship them as eagerly in good conscience.

A week or so ago I wrote in a post that Cassian seems, to me, ashamed of Nesta. This idea came to me after considering his behaviour mostly in ACOFAS and to a lesser degree in the previous books. A post by @inyourmindeye, where they put forth their arguments about why Cassian isn’t ashamed of Nesta made me reconsider, however. I read their post carefully and took some time to gather my thoughts after taking in this other perspective. I will share them now.

First, I will say that the word “ashamed” perhaps isn’t the most exact word to express how I feel about Cassian’s complex emotions when it comes to Nesta. I think a more apt word would be conflicted. Second, I want to clarify that when I wrote “ashamed” I didn’t mean to imply that he didn’t care about Nesta. Feeling ashamed of something or someone because of the feelings of attraction or care one might have is certainly possible. Additionally, these emotions aren’t necessarily contradictory, nor do they necessarily depend on each other. They do, however, complicate each other and create conflict.

But what exactly is the source of Cassian’s possibly conflicted feelings?

In the most simplistic sense, I suggest the source is Nesta and the Inner Circle. Or rather, Nesta v. the Inner Circle.

Many in the fandom and some of my own posts have discussed the inherent incompatibilities between Nesta and the IC (as depicted in the canon texts we have access to as of 21/10/20). These incompatibilities are largely ideological such as different definitions of “free will” and agency. Nesta simply does not tolerate the messy dynamics of the IC and the tacit acknowledgement that Rhys has the most authority. For Nesta to fit into this world, she would have to abandon the elements of her character that constitute her core self and which make her subversive within the narrative and without: a disdain towards authority, a resolute mind that isn’t easily moved, quick to anger and abrasive and hostile in her expressions of this anger, but capable of making concessions if the situation gnaws at her strict moral code, morally grey, not nurturing, generally unpleasant to those she doesn’t trust, judgemental, unapologetic in her sexuality or in her femininity, lacking in patience when it comes to idiots and sycophants, critical to a fault, not immune to enacting cruelty, etc. See, if this were a man and if this book had been written during the Romantic period and we were reading it now we would just say “well, I’ll be! What a text-book example of a compelling Byronic hero! We love to see it.”

Note how the men (sorry, males) in SJM novels tend to have many of these same characteristics. They are also pretty good examples of Byronic heroes. The main difference is the energy most people bring when they criticise women. One of the characteristics of a Byronic hero is his refusal to be confined. This confinement can be moral, ideological, epistemological, or physical. Basically, people in the world of such a hero (or even in ours) can’t compute when they encounter him and are unable to put him in easy categories. This often manifests as irrational hatred towards this character because it offends our sensibilities about what is known and what is unknown.

It’s attractive to think that we are immune to this as people existing in the 21st century, but we are not. We still rely on the “Other” to define our identity by both creating it and violently rejecting it. I suppose it’s as good a time as any to share the thesis of my overarching analysis project; basically, Nesta is the ultimate representation of the Other. She is Other in her womanhood (or I guess femaleness), she was Other even as a human, now that she is high fae she is Other to humans but tragically she is also Other to the high fae because she was Made. She is Other as a magical being, she is Other to the IC, she was and is Other to her bio family. She is Other to many of us because we simply cannot comprehend her actions in ACOTAR (how could she have been so cruel????). As of now, there is not a single place where Nesta can exist without offending the very core of what a lot of people value.

One framework for the Other was proposed by the French psychoanalyst Jaques Lacan. He basically said that the Other is that which we must reject when we start forming a concept of the Self. The Self is the known therefore safe; the Other is the unknown therefore dangerous and disruptive. The Self creates the symbolic order which is essentially the blueprint of accepted life to which the Other is antithetical. I can go on and on about the intricacies of this, and Lacan himself certainly did, but I’m working on a review of different conceptualisations of the Other so I will stop here. What I want to establish while bringing this up is that Nesta is essentially the Other to the IC’s symbolic order, i.e. fundamentally incompatible and an epistemological threat. This is a very theoretical way to explain the IC’s hostility and dislike towards her, but I find it compelling enough to pursue (and I am a nerd).

We can’t forget that Cassian is a known element of the IC’s symbolic order, thus one of the Selves let’s say. The Self should seek to annihilate the Other (as it usually does)…not love it, desire it, care for it. To do so is to enter a profound state of existential precarity. To pursue his feelings for Nesta, Cassian would have to question the fundamental assumptions that are at the core of his known world. There is nothing simple about such a task and I can’t really blame him for struggling. 

Still, understanding something isn’t necessarily synonymous with liking it. I wish that the distance between these two characters were not so great. I wish both could just sit and talk with the respect I know them to have for one another. The constant insults and underhanded jabs made by both parties are messy and not in a fun way. As the ship stands, I don’t feel comfortable liking it with the same reckless abandon as before. I think their hostility is too raw, even if their actions contradict them most of the time. Is it unreasonable to want them to interact without reservations in situations other than those between life and death? I hope ACOSF can provide the development they both deserve. Maybe then I can stop having one leg in the ship and the other overboard.

[duskandstarlight]

god i LOVE your acosf analysis sm!!!!! so many people are so hateful and critical towards it and TRUST me this book has flaws that run a mile long but lord it’s still one beautiful version of nesta’s healing and nessian’s romance along with all those other works in fanfic that people have made. it could be a thousand times better of course but honestly what we got was better than i ever expected from sjm lollll THANK YOU for giving your opinions on it and defending aspects of it you queen. also can’t WAIT for e&l!!!!

Thank you, thank you! I’m so glad you think so :) Basically what you said is what I think, so it seems we’re very much on the same page!

I hope you enjoyed the latest chapter of E&L <3

[highfaelucien]

Highfaelucien Introduction:

okay, salty as I was, I have decided I should probably intro myself properly with some Knowledge. 

-My name is Taryn, I’m 26, I use they/them pronouns, and I’m from Scotland. 

-I have an AO3 account with multiple ACOTAR fics here: highfaelucien I intend to add more to it soon. 

-I welcome asks regarding fic prompts/meta requests. I’m a nerdy English lit grad and I enjoy analysis.

-I was in the fandom a few years ago but tapped out after some......intense disagreements with the way shit was going after ACOWAR. 

-my brain decided to have an intense Elucien renaissance a little while back so I made a new blog with my old OG name highfaelucien. 

-I ship Feysand, Nessian, and Elucien. But I’m also partial to a great n umber of rarepairs including: Rhys/Lucien, Az/Lucien, Mor/Nesta, Mor/Elain, Feyre/Lucien, Lucien/Andras, Cass/Azriel, Tarquin/Lucien and....probably many others I’ve forgotten at this point. 

-I stan Lucien, Mor, and Nesta above all else. 

-I’m anti Tamlin and Eris, which I will tag. 

-I WILL be critical of some aspects of the series, this again I will tag, but be aware that I do have some concerns about it, specifically Lucien, Mor, and Nesta’s treatment.

-I might repost some of my old meta/posts from ye olden times. we’ll see. 

-Lucien calling Elain "dove" originated with me and I'm still very proud of it.

[ladydeath-vanserra]

𝙱𝚕𝚘𝚐 𝙱𝚒𝚘 𝚄𝚙𝚍𝚊𝚝𝚎:

if ur gonna follow or interact with my blog pls realize I am very critical towards most acotar content, especially if it involves Rhysand. I am more-or-less a Rhys Anti until further notice and I am hard-core side eye towards Cassian until Rhysand is held accountable for being a shitty person for more than like *checks notes* two pages

I'm not a Tamlin Stan, nor do I particularly care for him, but I have been engaging in thoughtful criticisms of his actions often which involves character analysis so you v likely will see that pop up every now and then

ᴀ ᴄᴏᴜʀᴛ ᴏꜰ ᴛʜᴏʀɴꜱ ᴀɴᴅ ʀᴏꜱᴇꜱ

Nesta Archeron

Lucien Vanserra

Eris Vanserra

Feyre Archeron / Feyre Critical / Anti Feyre Archeron

Elain Archeron / Elain Critical / Anti Elain Archeron

The Archeron Sisters

Anti Rhysand

Anti Cassian

Azriel / Anti Azriel

Anti Amren

Anti Morrigan / Mor Critical

Anti Inner Circle

Tamlin / Tamlin Critical

Jurian

ᴄʀᴇꜱᴄᴇɴᴛ ᴄɪᴛʏ

Bryce Quinlan / Anti Bryce Quinlan

Hunt Athalar

Ruhn Danaan

Aidas

ᴛʜʀᴏɴᴇ ᴏꜰ ɢʟᴀꜱꜱ

Aelin Galathynius

Manon Blackbeak

Dorian Havilliard

Rowan Whitethorn

Aedion Ashryver

Anti Chaol Westfall

ᴘʀᴏ ꜱʜɪᴘꜱ:

Neris

Azris

Nezriel

Lucnes

Elucien

Brysta

manesta

mesta

gwynlain

tamsand

ᴀɴᴛɪ ꜱʜɪᴘꜱ:

Anti Nessian

Anti Feysand

ᴀᴛʟᴀꜱ ʀᴇᴀᴅꜱ ᴄᴄ

ᴀᴛʟᴀꜱ ʀᴇᴀᴅꜱ ᴄᴄ2

ᴍᴇᴛᴀ ᴘᴏꜱᴛꜱ:

Class Warfare + Class Traitors in ACoTaR

SJM + Eugenics + Ableism in her Writing

Inequality + Slums in Velaris

Rhysand Sexually Assaulted Feyre UtM

acotar tiktok meta

acotar meta

Classism in Acotar

Eugenics in Acotar

Eugenics in ToG

Yt Feminism in Acotar

Mor SA'd Cassian

Nesta is not an Alcoholic Send Tweet

Hybern Ireland - the Vilification of Ireland in Acotar

ʜᴇᴀᴅᴄᴀɴᴏɴꜱ | ᴀᴜꜱ:

BPD Nesta

Autistic!Nesta

Slavic Archeron Sisters AU

Scottish!Tamlin

Welsh!Rhys

Disabled!Cassian

Justice for Poor Cassian and Poor Archeron Girls

Glasses!Elain Propaganda

aroace lesbian elain

ᴏᴛʜᴇʀ:

ᴀʟʟ ꜰᴏʀ ᴛʜᴇ ɢᴀᴍᴇ:

Neil Josten

Andrew Minyard

ᴛᴠᴅᴠᴇʀꜱᴇ:

Can we Stop the Overt Vilification of Esther Mikaelson and the UwUization of Mikael Mikaelson

Stop Hating on Finn hes too Babygirl for This

TVD TikTok Edits

ᴛʜᴇ ᴏʀɪɢɪɴᴀʟꜱ:

Klaus Mikaelson

Elijah Mikaelson

Dahlia Mikaelson

Esther Mikaelson

Finn Mikaelson

Vincent Griffith

Freya Mikaelson

Rebeckah Mikaelson

Kol Mikaelson

Mikael Mikaelson

ᴛʜᴇ ᴠᴀᴍᴘɪʀᴇ ᴅɪᴀʀɪᴇꜱ:

Damon Salvatore

Caroline Forbes

Anti Stefan Salvatore

Elena Gilbert / Anti Elena Gilbert

Katherine Pierce

Lexi Branson

Shelia Bennett

Jeremy Gilbert

ᴍɪꜱᴄ.

It's loving Portia Featherington Hours

[ladydeath-vanserra]

New Blog Bio:

I do not tolerate pro-israel, zionist shit anywhere near me. I don't tolerate anti semitism anywhere near me. I will not tolerate anyone who is upholding or supporting the ethnic cleansing and genocide of the Palestinians. if you do, BLOCK ME

if ur gonna follow or interact with my blog pls realize I am very critical towards most acotar content, especially if it involves Rhysand. I am more-or-less a Rhys Anti until further notice and I am hard-core side eye towards Cassian until Rhysand is held accountable for being a shitty person for more than like *checks notes* two pages

I'm not a Tamlin Stan, nor do I particularly care for him, but I have been engaging in thoughtful criticisms of his actions often which involves character analysis so you v likely will see that pop up every now and then

likely you will find:

anti Rhysand

anti/critical IC

anti/critical/pro feyre

anti/critical Cassian posts, maybe MAYBE pro cassian

critical/pro Azriel- I'm pretty neutral towards him

anti/critical/pro elain content [often. w/o being tied to a ship]

pro Lucien

pro Nesta

pro Eris

most pro tog characters

anti/critical chaol (he just annoys me with his high horse)

Pro Ships:

Azriel/Eris/Nesta

Tamsand (lmao)

Feylin [book one]

Elucien

Nesta/Lucien [idk the ship name]

Feycien

Feyssian

Mesta

most tog ships

aelin/manon

malide

chaorian

Anti Ships:

Nessian

Feysand

Elriel

lysaedion

chaolena

My Specific ACoTaR Meta:

SJM + Eugenics + Ableism in her Writing

CoN + the Eternal Perpetuation of Abuse and Toxicity

SJM and the vilification of Ireland in acotar and tog

SJM could have had the HLs give their power to resurrect her wo Rhys forcing them if she played by Faerie Rules

Rhys physically assaulted Nesta

Class Warfare + Class Traitors in ACoTaR

Rhysand + Morally Grey Behavior

My Meta / Aus / etc Posts

tag -> #justice for poor cassian and poor archeron Sisters

tag -> #glasses!elain propaganda

tag -> #slavic archeron Sisters au

tag -> #fix cassians characterization challenge

tag -> #scottish!tamlin

tag -> #welsh!rhys

tag -> #disabled!Cassian

tag -> #my acotar world building

tag -> #appropriated faerie lore in acotar

tag -> #hybern Ireland

tag -> #white feminism in acotar

tag -> #eugenics in acotar

tag -> #eugenics in tog

tag -> #classism in acotar

Other Acotar Meta:

Mor SA'd Cassian

tag -> #acotar tiktok meta

tag -> #acotar meta

tag -> #racism in acotar

tag -> #Nesta is not an alcoholic send tweet

Other:

A Synopsis of The Ballad of Tam Lin

Other Fandoms:

TVDverse:

leave season 1 Caroline ALONE. she deserved better 🥺

Damon and Rose's Friendship that is ALL

"He's the 'good brother'. I'm the 'bad brother'" Salvatore Brothers meta

Esther is Mikaels victim too stop this irritating 'Esther is the real villain'

tag -> #can we stop the overt vilification of Esther Mikaelson and the UwUization of Mikael Mikaelson

tag -> #tvd tiktok edits

tag -> #Damon Salvatore

tag -> #Caroline Forbes

tag -> #Vincent Griffith

tag -> #Shelia Bennett

Bridgerton:

It's Loving how Nuanced Portia is Hours

tag -> #Portia Featherington

Shadow and Bone / Six of Crows:

The Darkling Meta

tag -> #David kostyk

Once Upon a Time

tag -> #cora mills

The Hunger Games / A Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes:

Coriolanus Snow Meta

tag -> #thg tiktok meta

tag -> #coriolanus snow

tag -> #reaper ash

tag -> #wovey

Percy Jackson

tag -> #nico di Angelo

completely irrelevant:

tag -> #rural iowa

more to be added!

[bookofmirth]

Regarding your anti fandom ask, it’s not just limited to the sjm fandom! I’m in a couple other fandoms and it’s been going on for a while, a few years even. I suspect it’s only recently become more prominent in the sjm fandom because of how big the ship war has gotten. There hasn’t ever seemed to be a large scale disagreement of this size in the fandom before, we all generally got along and liked mostly the same ships. Even when we disagreed, there wasn’t as much hostility as there is now. I don’t like lysaedion and I remember posting about a koa scene I took issue with in the tag, but I never got slammed by lysaedion shippers trying to convince me to like them or giving death threats. Now though? If I were to post anything critical of any acotar ship or character - nessian or feysand or elain or lucien or azriel - I doubt anyone in the fandom would be willing to engage in a respectful discussion where we can both try to share our views even if we agree to disagree.

Like on one hand, I do like that the tagging system allows us to curate our own fandom experience. I don’t particularly like looking in the tag of my favorite ship and being bombarded with posts from people who hate it. On the other hand though, it seems to detract from actually engaging in discussions and analysis with people we disagree with, instead sheltering everyone in their own little ship bubble. Idk it’s complicated.

In my other fandoms, I’ve noticed anti tags becoming more common with the anti shipper and pro shipper wars, which I feel like is also on the rise on the acotar fandom. I’m sure you’re already aware, if you aren’t I’d highly recommend looking it up yourself, but basically anti shippers believe in policing content that they view as morally depraved and problematic, while proshippers believe everyone is entitled to make the content they want and if you dislike it you shouldn’t engage with it. The issue lies with the ambiguity of defining what is considered “problematic” content. Incest and pedophilia, sure, but what about when it’s fanfic of a 17 year old mc of a ya fantasy novel who falls in love with an immortal man? Should that be censored because it’s pedophilia? What about fanfic writers that venture into dubcon and cnc territory? Are they influencing young readers and promoting rape culture, or are they merely exploring kinks and adult fantasies in a healthy manner? How far should writers be allowed to go in their writing under the excuse of it being a coping mechanism? Are platforms like ao3 promoting racism and misogyny and homophobia by refusing to censor works that contain this content through a favorable lens? Antis seem to always lie on the side of censorship to protect others, while proshippers believe you should be responsible for curating your own experience and blocking content you dislike as you see fit.

Most of the time when people use anti tags they aren’t referencing this large scale debate, many proshippers even advocate the use of anti tags so you aren’t exposed to content you don’t want to see. But I do think that this argument between the two sides of the tumblr content war is contributing to why tagging things appropriately is becoming more of a social norm in fandom. And I’ve also noticed many people in the ship war using anti language against the opposing ship - for example, gwynriels saying that elriel is problematic and toxic and would send a bad message to readers about romance, and elriels saying that elucien is problematic and misogynistic by taking away elain’s agency. In both of these scenarios, shippers are co-opting buzzwords to give themselves a sense of moral superiority over other shippers, without looking at the nuances of both sides. It’s hard to distinguish between the two when you don’t know if people in the anti ship or anti character tags are using those to say “here is why I dislike this ship/character and I’m using this tag so fans of this character/ship don’t have to see it” vs. “this is why I believe anyone who supports this ship/character is a terrible person.” It’s getting even more confusing since anti sjm blogs use the same anti tags - so if you look at the anti nesta tag, for example, it’s filled with a mix of people - some making respectful criticisms of how her character arc was written, some claiming she’s a horrible person and anyone who supports her is an abuse apologist, and some claiming nesta should just burn the inner circle to the ground and how they think sjm ruined her.

Anyway, it’s a very confusing, complicated issue that extends beyond just the realm of this fandom. I hope this made at least some sense, lol I’m sorry it’s like a full on essay, feel free to ignore it if you don’t feel like reading it all (I wouldn’t blame you lmao).

I meant to answer this the next day and that was five days ago!!!! Between the two of us, anon, people are going to be scrolling for days.

it’s not just limited to the sjm fandom! I’m in a couple other fandoms and it’s been going on for a while, a few years even.

Hmmm... I have mixed feelings about this! Very mixed. It seems like what was once a good way to make people aware of the type of content they would encounter, or to help them avoid the content they want to avoid, is now being used to create extreme echo chambers.

it seems to detract from actually engaging in discussions and analysis with people we disagree with, instead sheltering everyone in their own little ship bubble.

Yeah that.

I'm still working under the assumption that if you're in the fandom, you generally like the thing. If I tag something #azriel, I don't feel like I need to specify whether I am being Nice or Mean about him, because... it's more complex than that? Or if I tag something #elucien, that doesn't mean that I can't say something critical of Elain or Lucien. There just isn't a way, imo, to categorize all opinions or content in that way. What if I say that Nesta is a bitch and she's also a badass. What would I tag that? What if I just tag it Nesta and assume that people interacting with my post can decide what to do from there. Block me if you want, idgaf!

I find this all super interesting, and yes I agree with everything you said about anti fandoms, and it's why I am never going to be an anti. Not in the traditional "I'm going to spend my life shitting on this thing and trying to convince other people it sucks and they should hate it too" style. I have plenty of stuff I don't like, but idgaf if other people like it.

Even when we disagreed, there wasn’t as much hostility as there is now.

Absolutely. So funny story, but a bunch of us got an ask yesterday about someone supposedly "infiltrating" the fandom, and then a blog encouraging that behavior, and blah blah blah. I will make a separate post about it. Point is, this person supposedly assumes that because they like e*riel, the fact that gwynriels follow them is super funny?

But whoever this person is... did they know that we can like nessian, or cazriel, or whatever, and STILL BE MUTUALs. Surprise bitch, but I don't agree with every single opinion of every single mutual that I have! I don't expect my followers to agree with everything I say either! Okay that's all I will say on that because that's a separate issue, but related to the hostility you mentioned.

I’m sure you’re already aware, if you aren’t I’d highly recommend looking it up yourself, but basically anti shippers believe in policing content that they view as morally depraved and problematic, while proshippers believe everyone is entitled to make the content they want and if you dislike it you shouldn’t engage with it. The issue lies with the ambiguity of defining what is considered “problematic” content. Incest and pedophilia, sure, but what about when it’s fanfic of a 17 year old mc of a ya fantasy novel who falls in love with an immortal man? Should that be censored because it’s pedophilia? What about fanfic writers that venture into dubcon and cnc territory? Are they influencing young readers and promoting rape culture, or are they merely exploring kinks and adult fantasies in a healthy manner? How far should writers be allowed to go in their writing under the excuse of it being a coping mechanism? Are platforms like ao3 promoting racism and misogyny and homophobia by refusing to censor works that contain this content through a favorable lens?

Sorry this quote is really long that I am highlighting but ALL OF THIS. I've been looking for posts about anti fandoms and you made me realize that really what I should be looking for are my posts about AO3 and censorship, because that's what all of this comes down to. When I say I am anti anti that means I really, really don't like anti fandoms, and that's why I started the tag sjm critical (which I have noticed has gained traction and I appreciate that).

For example, people who are anti rowaelin (which caused me to unfollow the tag years ago) don't just dislike the ship, they don't just think it's abusive lol, they think that sjm is a horrible person for writing it and that the only valid ships are those which are healthy and perfect. They don't like age gaps, they require explicit consent, they relationship must also be social justice-worthy. In other words, the only good ship in these contexts are ones that meet this insane standard of "have never done anything even slightly negative ever and if they did, then they immediately atoned for it and tried to teach the audience a valuable lesson about being a Good Person".

Also, re: anti rowaelin, when I was encountering a lot of that content there was no ship war, they were canon, they were together, and so the only reason for people to post anti rowaelin content wasn't because there was an actual, viable debate around it, like we are currently seeing with the e*riel/elucien/gwynriel ship war. People just didn't like rowaelin and were spending their time intentionally hating on something that was already fact. That's why it's different from antielriel, or anti elucien or anti gwynriel.

However... There is overlap between anti talking points (in the "I hate this thing and you should too" way) and the current ship war. They are, as you said, "policing content that they view as morally depraved and problematic". They will be "anti elucien" because the mating bond takes away choice (even though the series doesn't actually bear that out). They are "anti gwynriel" because of the (non-existent) power imbalance. It's not enough to have a valid reason to dislike it, they have to turn it into a moral purity contest.

And so when people use "anti character", that's why I'm like y'all... do you realize the baggage that comes with that tag? With the concept of being anti? Is this really the stance you're trying to take, or is this just your personal opinion or squick? There's just a much larger fandom history and context that is loaded into that phrase "anti", and I don't know if people always realize that.

I think that's the thing that I hate the most, and the thing that idk if people are intentionally wading into. Ships don't have to be healthy or pure or even consensual. They could be abusive and have age gaps and whatever. Acting like shipping makes one (real) person better than another is what drives me freaking crazy, and that's what anti fandoms bring into the discussion.

It’s hard to distinguish between the two when you don’t know if people in the anti ship or anti character tags are using those to say “here is why I dislike this ship/character and I’m using this tag so fans of this character/ship don’t have to see it” vs. “this is why I believe anyone who supports this ship/character is a terrible person.”

Yeah and that too - I use antielriel and censor the name because I don't want people to find content that they won't like. I have zero interest in changing anyone's mind, though. And while I find the ship potentially icky, that's my personal opinion and I don't think that says anything about the people who ship it. I have my share of "problematic" ships so I am definitely not out here trying to convince anyone to convert to the But Is It Moral way of thinking about ships.

I think another confounding factor is the way that ship names are used interchangeably to refer to both the ship, and the people who ship it. Yeah it's a quick easy shorthand, but when I say "e*riel would bring out the worst in one another", I am making a statement about those characters, not anyone who ships it. And yet, I guess people think I am shaming them or something.

This is why occasionally I'm like "FICTION VERSUS REALITY" or "fictional characters are not real!" It's mainly to remind people that when I make a statement about a character, it has nothing to do with people who like or dislike said character.

From a discourse community perspective (in the linguistics sense) it's really interesting to see how people take control of the ways in which we communicate and access or restrict content. I definitely appreciate that people have created these tools for us to curate our experiences online, and I use them so that other people can do what they need with my content, and so I can find things myself. It's just when the tags are used ambiguously, in ways that don't seem to account for fandom history or where those tags came from, that I'm like but wait. Are we playing the Who Is A Better Person game, or are you just trying to be organized.