#Maruki what were you thinking

[senblades]

"I didn't want to make it seem like I was holding him hostage..."

[npd-goro-akechi]

Yoshizawa, and what I would have liked to see from her character

P5R spoilers, to no ones surprise

I'll be honest, when i first played through P5R I very much did not enjoy Sumire. Didn't hate her, I just could not get myself to engage with her character. Which was a shame, because I saw what they were trying to do, I just think the game did it badly lol. Since then, I've started liking her significantly more. But, again, in no thanks to the game. Every few weeks I feel like I see a post somewhere discussing Sumire so I wanted to put all my thoughts in one coherent post. This mostly covers the direction I wish Atlus had taken to integrate her into the game better, based off completely my own opinions. First, I would have loved for them to lean further into the mysterious, possible-antagonist type I feel like they were teetering on the edge on in the P5R opening scenes in the casino. I think it would have been cool if you saw her hanging around members of the PTs during school, or had cutscenes of seeing Sumire and any of them together as if she was purposely befriending them, or any other small scenes that could have made her look suspicious if you were already coming from that angle, but then looking back after you finish the game, she's just some guy making friends. Of course, players who had played through the P5 vanilla would likely be a bit less suspicious, but with the addition of the 3rd semester I think it would be enough to keep people guessing about her role. I really don't have any detailed and well thought-out examples, though, so maybe it's not fair of me to criticize this part too much

However, I would revamp her fight with Joker in Maruki's palace completely. I feel like it comes off too much like it's Maruki's fault; she gets kept in his palace for a week and then when you meet her she fights you. To me, personally, even though I know she's choosing to do so, it really doesn't feel like it - it just feels like more of Maruki's influence. I think it would be infinitely cooler if she went back with the Phantom Thieves and then while they were all going through the palace she did something to sabotage their progress or try and stop them. It would feel so much more like her own decision and also highlight that desperation to stay as Kasumi - that she would be (apologetically,) willing to do something to halt or possibly harm her friends to avoid going back to how things were. I think if the Phantom Thieves managed to talk her out of it here, it would also work well for her actual awakening - it would likely be more impactful after a fight rather than in P5R, when the PTs are just going through the palace. It pisses me off how agency is a major theme of the game and yet one of the few times Sumire makes a choice, it's so easily brushed off as "Maruki's influence," because the game did not do a good job at portraying otherwise. In a fit of desperation, Sumire decided to fight Joker; she made that choice. But, especially with how the fight goes, with her persona then taking over, that choice is just washed over completely. I want her to be so desperate to hide from her trauma that she goes against the Phantom Thieves, and I want it to be unquestionably her decision.

There's probably more I could write, especially more about just the horror of her character, the whole taking on the role of your dead sister, but really that second part about changing her and Joker's fight is what I really wanted to talk about and dedicated most of my thoughts too lol

[specterthief]

also on the subject of maruki and shido, this isn't quite as 1:1 a comparison as in akechi's cut third awakening, but there is still a direct link between them through the fact that maruki's research was stolen by shido – shido's knowledge of the metaverse and cognitive psience come in part from maruki directly

the professor of maruki's who shut down his research was doing it in connection with shido (an earlier iteration of this scene even had akechi note that he recognizes the professor's voice – this is someone who seemingly worked directly with shido on some level)

and he also compares maruki to shido, unfavorably this time, when maruki tells him of his plans

but maruki seems to take "you're no shido" as a challenge more than anything...

...and this is the scene where he fully awakens to azathoth's power and realizes just what he has to do to change all of humanity's cognition as he planned (before the phantom thieves inadvertently give him the power to do that, even)

with the spooky gendo ikari glasses glow not unlike shido's propaganda posters

and taking a closer look at that propaganda poster, shido's party logo is a giant eye watching over the earth in its hands...

...while maruki's whole palace is full of cameras that resemble azathoth's eyes

and, of course, its tentacles resemble hands

and there's even a projection of a globe over the atrium in the palace

so the one line from akechi may have gotten cut but the connections are certainly still there

[hauntingmiser]

tbh why does everyone think of maruki as

A ) one evil mf that is worse than shido or someone that doesn't need redemption. only suffering

Or

B ) cinnamon roll or an innocent himbo man that did nothing wrong

[megaderping]

Something a lot of people mistakenly believe is that Akechi enjoys the work he does for Shido and that he takes the orders to kill without any resentment or regret. These text messages shed some light on the way he thinks and show that this is not actually the case. Unfortunately, these texts are entirely missable if you finish the treasure route to Sae's Palace too early. As a result, this crucial characterization is often overlooked and people take what they know about characters like Persona 4's culprit and Persona 3's traitor and assume that Akechi is playing it straight.

But even without these obscure texts, it's not like the game is subtle about this. Akechi's lack of freedom and agency is a recurring aspect of his character that people will often cast aside because it's much easier to boil him down to "crazy serial killer" than actually look at the complexity of his situation and his own victimhood.

Throughout his Royal confidant, Akechi's perfectly crafted mask cracks several times. Moments like this show him offering an out, even if he's MUCH happier if you don't consider it.

He doesn't WANT Joker to change. As much as he claims to hate Joker, he admires his convictions. Wishes he had what Joker had. Wishes he could have been more like him. See: the Gun About rank up where he mentions how he used to want to be a hero of justice.

The creepy smiles and shit you see on 11/20 and in parts of the engine room are another mask Akechi wears. Akechi ALWAYS swaps out his masks to best serve his situation. Yet he still tells Shido not to kill the thieves, that Morgana is just a cat, and is perfectly content to leave them alone, and after his fight in the engine room, when the mask literally breaks...

We see his regrets on full display. He isn't proud. He's done making excuses. All those little times the mask broke in the Royal confidant were ways to set up this moment. He genuinely cares SO much about Joker, but that caring was dangerous to his objectives, so he HAD to hate him. He HAD to want to kill him to achieve his objective, and yet...

He still cares. He's putting out spikes in third sem, no doubt because he suspects his own fate should they destroy Maruki's world, but...

[hifugoro]

thinking sooooo hard about the removed akechi mementos request. not only because we got to see him Ace Detective-ing (peak!) but because the moral of it all is so. Akechi. very long rant incoming

one of the major things that I think sets him apart from the rest of the thieves is that he doesn’t believe that circumstances lessen the effects of actions. like at all. there are multiple examples of this but the cutscene during marukis fight where he’s the only one to keep attacking (and him being the only one to show outright disdain towards maruki in general) + the thieves den conversation with yusuke about shido / madarame (Y: “Perhaps there was a certain misstep in his life that eventually led him so astray.” A: “So you’re saying he may not have been truly evil? Your drivel’s as outlandish as always…”) are ones that stand out to me most. he doesn’t care about what causes bad people to be the way they are, and he doesn’t care what otherwise good people’s intentions are when they do bad things. the act itself is what matters

it goes without saying that this extends to himself, I mean he outright states that he cant comprehend the phantom thieves not just killing him after the engine room fight. he didn’t mean that as a “wow... I can’t believe you’re being so nice to little old me….” moment. it was him being genuinely confused as to why they’re still trying to get him on their side. because he didn’t say anything he said to gain pity points with them, nor does he think the things he said deserve enough pity points to spare his life

and then you have this mementos request. in which a corrupt diet member has a son with his mistress, who subsequently commits suicide, and then falsely accuses the son of a crime many years down the line. “you all want to help that poor victim, don’t you?” akechi says. the poor victim, who was enacting a revenge plot on his criminal father that made him into a criminal as well. huh.

again, this is all coming from the guy who like a month ago, got a heartfelt speech about how he can still come back from what he’s done because the thieves can understand where he’s coming from. this happens at (arguably) his emotional lowest, where it probably hits harder than it could at any other time. and this is his direct response to that. this is him saying, in essence, that their kind words at the end were nonsensical, because his circumstances Don’t Matter

after he sends these texts, morgana goes “But akechi is just like him…” because it’s true, but that’s the Point. It makes no difference that akechi can empathize, and place himself directly in toji’s shoes. he had a hunch about the truth the entire time, and he still aided in making toji’s act of extortion exposed. understanding the viewpoint of someone who does bad things Does Not Matter to him

and that, to me, is what his sense of justice is at it’s core. which is why in the end, he doesn’t have that same sympathy for himself that everyone else does. he killed people. end of story. no other notes

and my god! I really wish they kept this in, because it really hammers in that extra layer he has to him. atlus do you hate me

[vashtijoy]

have you seen the commentary from the p5r artbook going around? the shuake part of my dash is losing it a bit at the implication that their wishes were mutual!!! that seems to be what some people are getting from the commentary at least… amy insights?

Hi! I have been through the artbook. It's great, isn't it? :D

The image above is called "One Ending", and the creator caption (by illustrator Akane Kabayashi) reads:

When I think about how Akechi's wish was to play chess after school with the protagonist, I almost want to call him out with "You liked him after all, didn't you!"

Look at that. We're told about Akechi's wish, and what it included. We're as good as told outright that he likes Joker—and this isn't the only time, there's also this:

—There are a whole lot of things we can imagine, based on how the protagonist was depicted as someone special to Akechi. Those are more or less the exact emotions represented during Akechi's confidant. (Mumon Usuda, chief designer)

"someone special" here is 特別な存在 tokubetsuna sonzai—literally "a special presence". It means a special person, and more than that; it describes someone you find compelling, someone you can't look away from, someone who becomes one of your most important people, the centre of your world. It's another term that is often romantic, but isn't necessarily romantic.

(In the same way, I think Kabayashi's suki jan! is more tongue-in-cheek than it is a cast-iron confirmation that Akechi was canonly in love with Joker. The language there is teasing, it's ambiguous, it's baity; Kabayashi is joking. This is a rank 6—as they say, if you know, you know. But it is of course ultimately up to all of you.)

There's another mention of this image, down in the creator interview:

Out of all the Maruki ending illustrations, it was Akechi's that stuck with me the most. It made such an impression to see them opening up as friends, having a fun, peaceful time together like high school students should. (Mumon Usuda, chief designer)

What really strikes me in all of this is the emphasis the creators put on the fact that this is Akechi's illustration, Akechi's wish. Because I've thought for a while that we know Akechi has a wish. You can see him struggling with his refusals to Maruki in the first week of January. And you can hear his wish spoken—when Maruki repeats it back to him, during the boss fight, on 2/3:

Maruki {F1 81}君たちとなら、君も過ちのない道を歩めるかも知れないじゃないか！ {F1 81}-kun-tachi to nara, kimi mo ayamachi no nai michi o ayumeru kamoshirenai ja nai ka! If you're with {F1 81}―kun and his friends, you could begin to atone for what you've done! Think about it! With [Amamiya]-kun and his friends beside you, you could choose a path with no mistakes as well!

So this wish has several parts. First, there's that kimi mo, "you also"; it's tempting to read this as Maruki also wanting his new world to erase his past mistakes. Second, there's the first part, "if you're with [Amamiya]-kun and his friends". Where to even start here?

Being with Joker and the others is a prerequisite for the second half of Akechi's wish. It doesn't just coexist, it enables the rest of it. Just like his words in the engine room, "I wonder why we couldn't have met a few years earlier, [Ren]..."

Remember, Akechi's whole arc is about his rejection of trust and friendship, and his insistence on doing everything himself. This is precisely what Futaba calls him out on—"you trusted no one", or "you played life in single-player mode". This is what he unlearns at the climax of the engine room, when he realises he isn't prepared to let the others die—and follows through to save them.

Akechi is nothing without others, and he knows it. Without their support, which he believes he has no right to, he has no hope of living a better life, even were he to be given the chance—and he knows that, too. He has learned, and he has grown—and yet he knows the things he needs and wants so badly are forever inaccessible.

And his wish is about all the Phantom Thieves, not just Joker. There are many tiny references to this end—not least the original Japanese rank 10 line for his confidant, where he sacrifices himself for all of you. Joker is his compelling presence, his someone special, but he's formed small bonds with the others too, God help him.

and then there's the crime thing

The localisation frames Akechi's wish in terms of atonement, but that's not what's on offer. You cannot, after all, atone for things you never did. We see Akechi's wish put into practice, in the Maruki ending, where he appears with his friends beside him, wholly innocent and with unstained hands. And we see it in the first week of January, after he has finally met Maruki and spoken to him:

Akechi: Ah, that reminds me—there was one more thing I wanted to tell you. Akechi: About the reality Maruki's put us in... Akechi: It seems that Okumura and Wakaba are both considered alive by all accounts. [Ren: They're not dead anymore? / What do you mean?] Akechi: They aren't mere illusions, or cognitive beings—they truly are alive and existing in this world. Akechi: In fact, their deaths seem to have never taken place at all in this reality. [Ren: What happened to Shido?] Akechi: Shido was the only one arrested on the crime of attempting to overthrow the government... Akechi: It seems the Phantom Thieves were causing a stir in this society as well, but there's no record of your arrest now. Akechi: Basically, in this reality, you and I haven't committed any crimes.

While Akechi still remembers his crimes, they never took place. They have been undone, and only his lingering memory—and Joker's, at this point—speaks to them. He objects to this on countless levels, he summons all the strength he has to refuse it, but don't make the mistake of thinking that means he doesn't want it. This is Akechi's wish in action.

People are often very certain that Akechi's resolve in the third semester is like iron—that he rejects Maruki's offers right away, is never tempted, never wavers. But that can't be true. We know he's afraid to die. We know about the bad end where you don't complete the Palace, where Akechi says nothing and stares at the floor, seemingly blaming himself internally while all the others blame themselves aloud, for being unable to say no to Maruki's temptations. We know how he responds to this assertion of Maruki's—Maruki, who has perfectly summed up what we know all the other PTs wanted, and who (even if Word of God hadn't just confirmed Akechi's wish) we have, honestly, no reason to doubt.

Because Akechi never refutes this wish that Maruki describes. He never says he doesn't want it. He just rejects it—like all the others, who so desperately want what Maruki could give them. Futaba's mother, Haru's father. Akechi's life, and his innocence. And the people who might have been his friends, if he could dare, one day, to ask.

Akechi is tested just like the others, and the price he pays for his defiance is perhaps the highest of all.

and finally

[The Maruki ending illustrations are] of Maruki's world, where everyone's wishes are granted and they seem happy. The scene shows their actualised wishes, which were never granted in the real world. (Mumon Usuda, chief designer)

We shouldn't forget the price Akechi pays for his impossible wish. Sure, the vision of himself being altered like Sumire clearly haunts him, and I'm sure it made the choice easier—but I don't think it made it that easy. Instead of taking the dream Maruki offered him, Akechi chose to face up to what he'd done, and who he'd become; at the very end, in the third semester and in the engine room, he always makes the right choice.

And that choice was taken away from him. Agency over his life and death, his own acts, and who he would even be—Joker and Maruki take it all away from him and make him a puppet, just like Shido.

Maruki's ending isn't pretty.

revision history

Click here for the latest version.

v1.0 (2024/03/29)—first published.

[afterthelambs]

I'm not sure if I believe the "Wakaba Isshiki did unethical experiments" theory in the fandom, but I do think this is the biggest proof of it in-game:

Because how the hell would she know that?

The first explanation is that she did experiments by sending people into palaces and then testing what happens to them if the palace collapses. Which is messed up for obvious reasons.

The second explanation is that she did NOT test it, meaning she was just making shit up. Which is funny but also would make her a terrible scientist. This explanation is less believable because everything else about her research is too accurate.

There's also a theory that Wakaba did unethical experiments on Akechi specifically. I'm not sure I believe that, since the evidence for it is pretty shallow (like the featherman game scientist experimenting on grey pigeon). But this scene is once again the biggest argument you could make for that theory. The researcher in the image above refers to palaces by their correct term 'palaces', which they say was based on Wakaba's research. But that's only something you would know with firsthand experience of the metaverse. And the only person they know who could access the metaverse was Akechi (that we know of, but i dont think Shido would rely only on Akechi if there were other options).

So yeah this scene is very sus. It's most likely the writers didn't think too deep about the implications. There's no way they wanted Futaba's mom to be sketchy, right? But even if it's not intentional, the scenes and their implications still exist. So in conclusion those theories make sense, I get it, and I don't blame anyone for headcanoning them and having fun. And tbh anyone involved with cognitive psience was portrayed as some degree of unethical (maruki for example), maybe this is just on-brand

[persona-brainrot-real]

I don’t even know how to articulate my thoughts about Akechi and Sumire in the third semester. Something about Akechi, whose entire life was dictated by grief over his mother and the resentment of her killer that he stopped living it, seeing Sumire doing the exact same, grieving her sister and resenting herself as her sisters killer. It’s no wonder he hates Maruki so much for how he treats her and feeds into her desire to live as Kasumi - when you boil it down to it, Maruki’s endorsement of her desire to live as Kasumi isn’t all that different to Shido playing along with Akechi’s desire for revenge, both of them letting the vulnerable child think that they had an ounce of control in their decision.

He protects her every chance he can without ever being condescending to her but it still comes across patronising because she’s standing next to Joker, whose competence he never once doubts. He asks her if she’s okay, if she can handle it, and then turns to Joker and says don’t let me down. He checks in with her constantly and he realises what the issue is with her identity but never presses it so she can figure it out herself forgetting that if it wasn’t for the right circumstances and the confrontation with Maruki that she could never have realised or come to terms with it, just as he never realised that he was never going to get his revenge on Shido.

And in the middle of that you have a guy who has just watched all of his friends abandon him for a better, happier life with their old friends or old family and despite everything they’ve done together he realised he doesn’t really know them all. Not Kasumi, who was actually Sumire, not Akechi, who was lying to him the whole time they were friends (but who he suddenly has to trust completely because he has no other choice, who is STILL lying to him by never mentioning that he’s going to die soon) and not any of the Phantom Thieves, stop having time for him the moment they have other friends.

Maruki managed to make a reality that was completely isolating for Joker, gave him Akechi as a consolation prize for taking everyone else from him (exaggerating for effect: I know he and akechi wished for each other. The point remains that this was the only option Akira has for company after everyone else is given their friends or family back).

Does this make any sense. Can anyone hear me.

[somethingpersonarelated]

On simplifying Akechi

My brain was ridden with these ideas people have about Akechi that piss me off a little. Mostly ones that say he is "just crazy" or "just hates Joker." There's countless metaposts countering these arguments (and they are absolutely wonderful) but I often wonder WHY simplifying Akechi down is so appealing, even to people who are fans of his character. I can't say I've never been immune to simplifications of his character either, and I feel like that's important to admit. I don't even think it's necessarily a bad thing, but I was wondering about that why question.

TW: Discussions of mental health and child abuse

Source: A high schooler's holiday from the P5 Comic Anthology (read it here!)

I do think it's hard for all of the little things Akechi's character builds upon to be conveyed through a single playthrough. If you go in blind or don't finish his confidant, you may only get that surface level exploration of his character. Base Akechi is flashy and still gets the point across that it needs to: he's a foil to Joker and the PTs. However, by missing out on his social links and special events, you miss cultural, relationship, and personal context.

Many words have been said about the translation, particularly in the engine room, being faulty in areas. But some people still don't understand that Akechi's plan isn't to kill Shido, even when the text makes that clear. There's also this scene with Shido, which reads more as an exposition dump in a long section of the game most players will either tune out or skip. Not everything you see will always stick in your head, and Persona is a LONG game. I feel like it's easy to forget people just... forget canon sometimes. It's easier to put these details aside and say Akechi isn't affected by the system he's raised in. But the reality is, you miss what Lavenza says about Akechi's role, you miss that one exposition scene, and you miss the confidant: you believe Akechi had much more autonomy than was actually true. In conversations I've had with people IRL about Persona, 2/3 either skipped or did not finish Akechi's confidant. It isn't improbable, playtimes can range from 100-300 hours, most playthroughs take weeks. People will forget things. It isn't a maybe, it WILL happen.

When the game feeds you so much information, it's also easier to take what the characters say at face value. Doing this with Akechi will bite your ass. Those words in Rank 8 are directly expanded upon in No More What Ifs, the engine room, and 2/2. Maruki and Morgana confirm Akechi doesn't hate Joker, but you never hear Akechi say it himself. To me the game beats you over the head with this information (as the game has a tendency to do for certain situations), but I've also been in the rabbit hole for over a year now.

There's also this idea that recognizing that Akechi was set up by Yaldabaoth, his upbringing, and Shido means that all the venom is taken away from his actions. That isn't true, and Akechi holds to that in third semester. He doesn't give himself any grace for the situation he landed in, wanting to take accountability for it when it is undone without his consent. Akechi is by no means a perfect victim, and he doesn't believe that either. Recognizing that he had no choice, it was either homelessness and neglect or the plan he conjured himself only brings to light the tragedy of his situation, not whether his actions were morally incorrect. He wanted his father to be in his life, and he wanted his father to suffer. He wanted to have someone like Ren in his life, and he couldn't have someone like Ren because his plan would be jeopardized. It's a series of choices, some of which are forced upon him, some of which he chooses himself. That is an important distinction to make.

There's also this idea that Akechi is 'just crazy,' or never suffered from abuse or events that affected him long term. That he doesn't suffer from unspecified mental health conditions or trauma, and chose everything with a clear mind. When someone brings up this argument, it's usually in response to people talking about his life experiences. That somehow, the existence of trauma or a condition is an excuse for whatever he did. There's a double standard here: Akechi is someone who suffers from a condition that makes him 'plain crazy', simplifying his entire motivation and role in the story, while also removing him from the context of his mother, Shido, and his experience with the foster system. Actually interacting with these facets of his character brings to light the challenging things the story asks you to think about when it comes to Akechi: Is he a victim? Is he like the Phantom Thieves? What about his situation informed his choices? Interacting with this requires effort and an actual acknowledgement about what it means to be someone that suffers from trauma. Calling him 'plain crazy' not only is in disservice of textual analysis, but more importantly incorrect (and frankly, it falls straight into ableist tropes about mental health).

Sometimes internet debates/discourse lead to simplification, even just random headcanons may lead to simplification. That isn't always bad. There are many ways to say what I said here in fewer words. I, unfortunately, am not skilled enough to do that. But some of these simplifications lead to entirely incorrect judgements about a character, or even about mental health issues. When that happens, I wish people would learn to reflect about what that means when they interact with a piece of media. Or even with other people.

tldr: people should learn to say they just don't like things instead of coming up with excuses that make no sense. basically

[akechi-stole-my-heart]

akechi's "i do not regret with my choices i'm rather proud" line in no more what ifs is so widely misunderstood it drives me nuts. it's a coping mechanism guys. it's a lie.*

(*that has an element of truth to it, as most of akechi's lies do.)

like. there's this trend to take the line at face value. he doesn't regret what he did for shido. he doesn't feel bad or think he did anything wrong. he has zero remorse. but you shouldn't take anything akechi says at face value, and regret and remorse are two very different things.

there's a lot to unpack here, so bear with me as i try to break it all down.

so okay, the source of this whole misunderstanding--the line in no more what ifs. i've gotten into this before in my analysis of the song, but the context of it is specifically in maruki's reality. goro is looking back on his life and thinking about where he ended up because of his choices. he's thinking, was i a fool? did i mess up? was there a better way? this line of thinking is reflected within the game itself when he explicitly says in the engine room that he wishes he met akira sooner, but that it doesn't matter what he wants because it's impossible to change what happened.

but here's the thing--that impossible wish he made in the engine room, where things were different and he and akira could be friends? it's no longer impossible. it's literally right in front of him. but it has a catch. accepting the reality of his impossible dream comes at the cost of being himself. all his choices and agency will be stolen, including the choices he made in the past that got him here. so he's left with one last choice--accept maruki's reality, give into his desires, and lose himself. or accept the choices he made for himself, and the consequences that came with them.

so, his conclusion in the song is that any what if's and regrets are pointless. he cannot afford to regret. he must be proud of what he did and who he is. goro is terrified of losing himself and being forced into becoming another puppet like he was for shido. (and notice--him acknowledging that he was a subservient puppet before, as he does on 2/2, requires that he's aware that the choices he is so apparently proud of weren't entirely his own. he was pushed there by someone else. he still blames himself for being manipulated, but a part of him knows that what he did for shido was wrong, and that he shouldn't have done it. doesn't sound like someone completely without regrets to me.) so he has to hold onto his choices and be proud of them. he can't let himself be tempted. the price he'd pay for them is far too high.

so, yeah. it's a coping mechanism. he's forced into that conclusion by his circumstances. akechi does regret where life has brought him and how he got there and the choices he's made, but regret is pointless, because he can't change the past and he can't accept maruki's future. so he chooses not to regret. people like him can't let themselves regret.

but of course, that's not all. in a post-canon world where he lives, goro isn't going to suddenly break down and be filled with remorse. because like i said, his feelings are complicated, and he still has his pride. akechi doesn't want to admit his faults or his weaknesses, and he does still think the people he targeted deserved it. so is he remorseful? yes and no. he is aware what he did was wrong, and that it was all for absolutely nothing. but he still doesn't view the world as something worthy of saving or protecting. to him people are all still inherently evil, save perhaps for akira, so what he did was both deserved and negligible, because the people he hurt were on the path of destruction regardless of him anyway.

so feeling for his victims and experiencing true remorse is going to be a process of recovery. at the same time, akechi still has the innocent child who wanted to be a hero hidden inside him. part of him does care, it's just been so neglected he isn't aware of it most of the time. that part of him began to be reawakened with akira and would continue to be as he makes connections, especially with the people he hurt like the phantom thieves.

which is part of why i think akechi befriending and reconciling with the thieves is so important! he needs to face the consequences of his actions and realize what he did didn't just hurt evil people, but innocents too. he needs to learn to see people as beings who can change, who are redeemable and are good. that people can love him even if he's done horrible things. and as he realizes these things about himself, he will eventually start to realize that it's true about the rest of the world, too.

goro wants to believe in the world, and in people. he doesn't anymore, but he wants to. when he starts to believe in people again, that's when he'll be able to finally be honest about his past mistakes, and feel true remorse for his actions and mistakes, and be able to start to make amends. the parts of the detective prince that reflected the little boy who believed in truth and justice are still in him somewhere, he just needs a lot of time, self reflection, recovery, and help to rediscover those parts of himself.

another aspect of this is how akechi voluntarily turns himself in. i do think there are ulterior motives here, mainly that he can be the one to help convict shido. it's also self-destructive, a way to sort of end his life when literally doing that didn't work. it's the path of least resistance, where he never has to truly look back on his crimes and self reflect because well, he's paying for his crimes anyway, so who cares. it's the easy out. but it also shows that he is aware what he did was wrong and that it's right for him to try to make amends. goro isn't totally without remorse or regret. his remorse and regret literally pushed him into trying to kill himself. he's just very, very bad at coping with them, and so chooses instead to repress those emotions like he has been for years.

okay, so, conclusion. stop forcing in lines in comics and fic where akechi is like "I don't regret!" without also portraying the nuance lying beneath that line. how in third sem it's a coping mechanism, and otherwise it's a shield keeping him from being honest with himself about his past and his ruined dreams of being a hero. remorse ≠ regret, and goro feels both but to different extents and different reasons. he hates his victims, but he's deluding himself about their guilt, and once that delusion crashes down and he sees that he's hurt innocents, he's going to have to deal with a lot of intense feelings like his already existing self hatred.

akechi isn't some heartless killer who feels nothing for his victims. he's only using that idea of himself as a coping mechanism. he forced himself to become that by repressing the parts of him that care until he can barely feel them anymore. he isn't just the black mask, he is also the detective prince. he's both. akechi is and always will be both sides of himself, even when he tries so hard to shut one of those sides down and ignore it as an aspect of the truth. you can't write akechi well until you understand that. akechi is always both.

so, does akechi regret? well...it's complicated.

[senblades]

Do u have any persona head-canons? Ships and/or characters

hmm.... I... kind of do? I do, in the sense that there are certain things that I enjoy reading and writing, but I'm not gonna throw a fit if someone thinks differently, and it's never a dealbreaker to me if fics don't have them. It's just sort of an "oh! this fic/art has this?! neat!"

In saying that, I suppose I'll write some of my favourite headcanon-ish things that are definitely Not Canon in the slightest, but I really enjoy throwing around for fun:

Futago siblings! Angst potential. And comedy potential. They're just a really good dynamic lmao

I care less about KenGoro siblings, but the concept is still super interesting! It's more the brotherly dynamic I enjoy than any potential angst from them being actual half-siblings (I've said it before, but throwing Futaba into the mix as well is incredibly funny)

Wakaba's questionable experiments; I like this for a lot of reasons- there are so many different ways it can be interpreted, but I personally enjoy writing it in a way (how to phrase this?) where it's less "making Goro more sympathetic because oops human experimentation" and more as a "Oh, Wakaba was morally grey, how does that affect the story/her character at large," and "How bitter can I make Goro because of this?" HAHA the whole 'making him more sympathetic' thing kind of evens out if I also make him worse while I'm at it lmao /lh

uhh moving into more Meta discussion territory, but:

Ren isn't bitter about the interrogation room betrayal because it was part of the game that he made the active choice to keep playing. It's a nod of respect between him and Akechi, since both of them are refusing to bend their ideals, and are accepting what that means (like, look at Justice rank 7 (and at how he smirks after the plan works lmao that boy was so confident he'd win))

follow up to that, accepting Maruki's deal on 2/2, conversely, is a betrayal in a much more significant way. Because Ren and Akechi were once again refusing to bend their ideals throughout January, until Ren folds on 2/2. it's like, they were unapologetically themselves in November, which meant they were enemies. Then, they continued to be themselves in January, which meant they were allies. So, Ren fucking that up is not exactly great teammate ettiquite.

moving out of the realm of Meta discussions because that's less headcanon territory-

ummm headcanon that Ren is really just as unhinged as Akechi, but he's excellent at hiding it around people that Aren't Akechi. Comedy ensues.

Sumire and Kasumi started out in dance before transferring to rythym gymnastics

Ren also used to do dance

uhhh these probably weren't the answers you were looking for anon I apologise HAHA- I really don't tend to have headcanons in the way of like "I 100% think this thing about a character without any textual evidence and I'll fight people about it". I guess the last three kind of count, but even then I like. don't really care lmao

I'm probably missing stuff because I just don't think about it a lot, but alas

ty for the ask anon <3 <3 I'm sure i'll think of something 20 minutes after I post this and be like "fuck. I should have written that" HAHA

[lacystar]

some of my favorite and least favorite details from royal:

when you go with sumire to the shrine and bump into the rest of the thieves, they basically say they all agreed to go together. this is backed up by futaba saying she's going in the morning. this means they specifically went out of their way to not invite you. either theyre shady as fuck towards joker or they knew you were gonna be on a date and didn't want to bother you, but I think its funnier to go with the first one

most of the people in Tokyo's dreams coming true bc of the actualization are met with some doubt or confusion from family members, as seen in passing conversations and the loading screens. this is to show the cracks in the plan and how the actualization hasn't been . well. fully actualized yet. however, the phantom thieves told maruki what they want directly and therefore have their realities so tailor made to them that you have to go out of your way to break them out of it. this includes Morgana. but the only ppl who can hear Morgana are people with personas. this means that some time between Christmas and new years, maruki heard Morgana saying he wanted to be a human and decided to go "fuck it, sure, the cat that the weird kid owns but that ive never met can have his wish too". this tracks because maruki has a persona and is not shocked or confused when he sees Morgana in the metaverse.

Yusuke did not wish for his dead mom to be alive again. just for her painting to hit the trending tab 😭

even if you are dating sumire, like I was, she will not say goodbye to you or give you a parting gift. this creates the awkward situation of her saying goodbye to you at the station with an unusual coldness and disassociation from you, even if you and her are boyfriend and girlfriend. I actually hate this. why the fuck isn't my girlfriend saying goodbye to me.

the winter outfits are the best designed outfits in the game. ann and makoto are in ugly 2010's H&M shit for 90% of the game and then get a fresh wardrobe for the new years.

in contrast, maruki's villain outfit is so fucking ugly. he looks like a golden toenail. the final villain in your game and you have him looking like that? come on man.

not royal exclusive, but Morgana has a talking sprite of himself in his cat form. for some reason, they refused to use this until the end of the game when he "loses" his metaverse form. this makes absolutely no sense, as the talking sprites of every other character changes on their clothes/appearence. why doesn't Morgana's change to his cat version in the real world and why doesn't he just have his "true" form in the metaverse. for some reason, this frustrates me to no end.

when you date sumire, she will not shut the fuck up about her dead sister. also, 90% of your relationship with her is based around her false identity she assumed of her dead sister. you are basically dating this girl's dead sister.

^^^ this is not helped by the fact that her "sumire" sprite looks ugly as fuck and she only looks cute when she's cosplaying as her dead sister. the devs even knew this and changed her back to her Kasumi sprite as soon as they justifiably could 😭

speaking of, royal REALLY REALLY makes it obvious that they see joker x sumire as the canon romance. in the base game I think they saw it as makoto or Haru, but in royal its uncanny how much they push you into dating her. however, she's objectively the worst girl to date because you can only date her at the very end of the game, and therefore only get to experience valentines and white day with her, whereas with most of the other girls you get Hawaii, Christmas, the school fair, etc.

^^^ however, this makes sense, as the realization that you were never dating sumire and instead were instead dating her dead sister would probably come as an uncomfortable surprise to the player. atlus had no choice but to wait until the truth came out to let you date her. they wrote themselves into a corner and then were unable to show off the character who has the biggest model on the poster 😭

when you go around and get goodbye gifts, you cannot say goodbye to certain phantom thieves members if you haven't maxed them out. this resulted in a weird situation where I hadn't maxed out makoto, Haru, and ann, and therefore joker, despite that in universe having helped them through trauma and loss and difficult times, did not say goodbye to some of of his closest friends and teammates . I understand not getting a goodbye gift from them, but its SUPREMELY weird that you dont get a one-on-one goodbye if you dont max their confidants 😭

not royal exclusive, but shinya Oda's voice acting (English) is so fucking terrible its actually laughable. in a game with outstanding voice acting, the fact that this 12 year old sounds like a 50 year old woman really sticks out. this is unfortunate, because Oda is one of my fav confidants and makes him hard to take seriously, but also fortunate because its fucking hilarious.

Akechi's evil Loki costume is ugly as fuck, but is saved singlehandedly because he's wearing thigh-high boots. if you dont believe me, look closely at his thighs. you'll see it.

maruki looks like wilbur soot and it really unsettles me.

[phantomrens]

now that i am getting near the end of maruki’s palace and therefore my first playthrough of persona 5 royal i wanted to make a bit of a longer post gathering my thoughts, more specifically about the phantom thieves vs maruki because i think there’s an interesting parallel between them that has honestly made it one of my favourite parts of the game.

first off, i think the phantom thieves resonate a lot because at the end of the day they are just teenagers who have experienced some sort of trauma or abuse.

ryuji’s father was an abusive alcoholic and he lost out on his dream because of kamoshida.

ann’s parents were constantly moving around and she was groomed by one of her own teachers, as well as her watching her best friend try to kill herself because of it.

yusuke was used for years by his own parental figure to make art he could steal for money and is now left on his own with no experience.

makoto’s father died and she is left with her sister and an immense pressure to succeed in their footsteps.

futaba watched her own mother die and it effected her so badly she convinced herself it was her own fault for YEARS and locked herself away.

haru was also groomed by her own father into an arranged marriage she wanted no part of.

akechi (including him simply for the sake of talking about maruki later on) had a deadbeat dad who he wanted approval from and was passed between fosters for years.

sumi watched her own sister die and it traumatised her so badly that she pretended to be her so kasumi wouldn’t be dead.

morgana is a bit of a weird one because he couldn’t remember where he came from and thought he was human for so long only to find out he was created for the purpose of helping the phantom thieves, but he accepts his fate.

and ren obviously was a victim of false accusations of assault that landed him in shibuya with a criminal record.

obviously some of those are more extreme than others but they all share one thing: having an adult who has hurt or abused them in some way, or put pressure on them to succeed. this is what drives them to start/join the phantom thieves because they don’t want other people to suffer the same way they have and it’s a way to get back at their own trauma. they don’t want to change what happened to them, they want to make sure it doesn’t happen again and i think that is the fundamental difference between the phantom thieves and maruki. it’s a way of healing their own trauma for them.

maruki on the other hand wants to create a reality where abuse and trauma never happened and it just doesn’t exist. which on the surface level seems like a good idea, but digging deeper you realise there are so many issues with that, morally and ethically. yes i often wish i wasn’t traumatised and my friends weren’t hurting and want to take away their pain. but for better or for worse that trauma has shaped us and we wouldn’t be the same people without it. learning to cope and learning to heal is an important part of life and having a world where nothing ever goes wrong is so one dimensional and lifeless and strips people away of their individuality.

ren sees all his friends living in this reality and on the surface level it seems like they are happy and it’s what they truly wanted and wished for, but it almost seems too perfect and the happiness is fake.

ryuji is part of the track team again and is working towards his scholarship.

ann is spending time with shiho and is happy with her best friend.

yusuke is still with madarame and he is thriving with his art.

makoto’s father is alive and she is living as a family with him and sae.

futaba’s mother is alive and her, wakaba and sojiro are living as a family.

haru’s father is alive and is actually treating her with love and respect.

morgana is human because he thinks that that is what he was supposed to be.

they all snap out of it and realise that this reality is fake and not what they really wanted because it undoes so much of what has gotten them to that point together. maruki altering reality in such a way that people who were dead are now alive in his reality does such a disservice to the work that the phantom thieves in these situations had done to get over the trauma of their deaths themselves (especially in futaba’s case) and being able to grow and move on after mourning these deaths.

and to an extent i understand what maruki is trying to do. creating an ideal reality where no person suffers seems like a good idea. but as soon as ren enters that reality everything feels off. his friends are not themselves and everything is too ideal. taking away all the bad things in the world does more harm than good and creates a world that is devoid of any depth. i don’t want to hurt, and i don’t want my friends to hurt, but the journey to healing from your struggles on your own is much more satisfying than having someone completely strip away the opportunity to do that. everyone has their own traumas and struggles and should be able to take their own power back, not have someone take away that opportunity entirely. altering reality in such a way is not stripping people of their trauma, its fundamentally changing them as a person instead. maruki does this and thinks its healing his own trauma, but the difference is he is hurting people in the process (maybe without him even realising) rather than making sure abusers don’t abuse again.

sorry this post was incredibly long but i do think the addition of maruki’s palace in royal is such a clever way to put into perspective what the phantom thieves are doing themselves because it makes you question for a moment if what they are doing is really justified, but when you look at maruki and what he is doing you realise the phantom thieves are in it for the right reasons.

[kekisu]

a very popular headcanon people have (i Think its popular. at least a lot of my twitter mutuals agreed with me a while back) is that joker comes from inaba, and if youve played p4 you know that theres literally nothing to do there

so a big headcanon that i used to be obsessed with is that he would spend a lot of his days skateboarding or biking around listening to music and exploring old dirt roads.. and he ended up getting a special interest in bugs and reptiles because hed come across so many during his little solo adventures. hes also very well versed in fishing its not a fixation or anything but just something hes pretty good at

this is why i tend to draw joker like some sort of skater boy. i think hes always stood out a lot in this small town even before the false assault charge, like he wasnt disliked or bullied but he just didnt really fit in. and this didnt bother him. i think he only realized how boring his life was when he became a phantom thief and got all these new friends in this new big city that understood him despite the circumstances that led him here. like man i really used to live like that and see nothing wrong with it? i didnt yearn for more?

it makes it even more painful when he has to leave and they naturally drift apart. because they all have dreams and ambitions, and the best years of their lives are waiting for them around the corner. but joker is back in this small town where theres nothing to do but hang out in some food court or poke around in the woods. i imagine this newfound loneliness is really hard on him, not to mention the guilt for feeling like hes somehow to blame for. well, whatever happened with goro

to me personally i think goro lived. i think he mustered up the perseverance to bite and claw his way out of shidos palace after seeing that even someone like him has a chance at being loved, he just didnt really remember this in marukis reality because it was all a blur. so both goro and joker were completely clueless as to what his fate would be if they went back to their true reality, which is what was so scary. the uncertainty. he could very well be dead but how could they know for sure? i just dont like the thought of him dying before he could truly live, even though i understand the tragedy of it can be poetic, i just cant stand for him going out like that because i relate a lot to his struggles. and i think it would go against the overall positive message of p5r. sure not everybody gets to have a second chance or a happy ending, but. man. anyways

joker fully believes goro is dead though. he wouldnt be crazy to assume this considering how they parted ways in shidos palace. but it eats away at him and maybe he really does go crazy. maybe his life feels like its stuck in time and while his old friends are out chasing their dreams, hes stuck. broken and shattered over feeling like he couldve done something to save him, knowing jokers savior/martyr complex

im running out of steam and i didnt mean to ramble on about my post-p5r headcanons but, to wrap it up: goro is in rehab somewhere and has a service dog to help with his dissociation and mood swings. and a couple other stuff. he feels like if he walks back into jokers life itll mess something up like joker will just break down or something. so he keeps his distance until they cross paths again. im just very obsessed with the idea of goro getting his life together vs joker wanting so badly to chase that high of phantom thievery again but failing and being actually so depressed

man morgana must be exhausted

[vashtijoy]

1/2: sojiro doesn't recognise akechi

YES. GOOD. THE BOY IS PRESENT WE BEGIN er

But let's have a look at slightly older Boy #2 here (Joker, of course, ties for Boy #1, while Morgana is a cat). Sojiro is being a bit weird in general here, and if you're like me, you might have missed it. Sojiro reacts to Akechi like a stranger: "oh, someone's ignored the closed sign and walked in..."

But Sojiro knows Akechi. He knows exactly what he did on 11/20, and before. He knows he worked for Shido. He knows he murdered Wakaba—Wakaba who, of course, is right there in Leblanc with them on 1/2.

I don't think Sojiro ever expresses an in-game opinion on Akechi after 11/20 (he certainly allows him back into Leblanc in January, so he may be deferring to Futaba like everyone else) but before the big November reveal, he likes him. He approves of him. If you talk to him when Akechi is at Leblanc for confidant 6, he'll tell you so:

(translator's note—学費 gakuhi, "tuition fees". If Akechi told Sojiro this, the chances that it is the whole truth are remote IMO—though I am attracted to the image of pre-evil Akechi working from a young-ish age to put himself through private school.)

Now, Akechi does not exactly endear himself to Sojiro on 8/28, when they first meet. But a week on, it seems as if Sojiro is at least trying to give Akechi a fair crack of the whip, and has maybe decided he's not so bad after all.

Later, on 10/22 when Akechi is on TV, Sojiro will ask if you ever heard from him again. You have, of course, likely not seen him since around 9/3 itself.

meanwhile in maruki's reality

Even within Maruki's reality, Sojiro is present for the explanation of how Akechi survived and turned himself in, on 12/25:

I can believe Sojiro missed most of the conversation, behind the counter like that, but no way did he miss Futaba's freakout here. He presumably knows who Akechi is at this point.

But by 1/2? He's forgotten. Wakaba is back, Morgana is human, everyone is happy, and nobody remembers that things were ever any other way, sure.

Akechi, though? He was never there. They never had that talk about school fees at the counter. Akechi never popped up on TV. If he was friends with Joker, Joker never brought him to Leblanc—or, in the original reality, Akechi never visited without an ulterior motive, meaning that when his crimes were erased from history, he never showed up at all. Not even for one of those shitty summer hangouts that waste a day.

So. Maruki ending Pleasant Boy is:

not a celebrity;

not familiar to Sojiro, because he never visited Leblanc;

not close enough to Joker yet to have spent time at Leblanc;

not a criminal and not dead, obvs.

I wonder how many other people he'd expect to know him simply have no memory of him at all.