#p5r analysis

[afterthelambs]

I'm not sure if I believe the "Wakaba Isshiki did unethical experiments" theory in the fandom, but I do think this is the biggest proof of it in-game:

Because how the hell would she know that?

The first explanation is that she did experiments by sending people into palaces and then testing what happens to them if the palace collapses. Which is messed up for obvious reasons.

The second explanation is that she did NOT test it, meaning she was just making shit up. Which is funny but also would make her a terrible scientist. This explanation is less believable because everything else about her research is too accurate.

There's also a theory that Wakaba did unethical experiments on Akechi specifically. I'm not sure I believe that, since the evidence for it is pretty shallow (like the featherman game scientist experimenting on grey pigeon). But this scene is once again the biggest argument you could make for that theory. The researcher in the image above refers to palaces by their correct term 'palaces', which they say was based on Wakaba's research. But that's only something you would know with firsthand experience of the metaverse. And the only person they know who could access the metaverse was Akechi (that we know of, but i dont think Shido would rely only on Akechi if there were other options).

So yeah this scene is very sus. It's most likely the writers didn't think too deep about the implications. There's no way they wanted Futaba's mom to be sketchy, right? But even if it's not intentional, the scenes and their implications still exist. So in conclusion those theories make sense, I get it, and I don't blame anyone for headcanoning them and having fun. And tbh anyone involved with cognitive psience was portrayed as some degree of unethical (maruki for example), maybe this is just on-brand

[megaderping]

Something a lot of people mistakenly believe is that Akechi enjoys the work he does for Shido and that he takes the orders to kill without any resentment or regret. These text messages shed some light on the way he thinks and show that this is not actually the case. Unfortunately, these texts are entirely missable if you finish the treasure route to Sae's Palace too early. As a result, this crucial characterization is often overlooked and people take what they know about characters like Persona 4's culprit and Persona 3's traitor and assume that Akechi is playing it straight.

But even without these obscure texts, it's not like the game is subtle about this. Akechi's lack of freedom and agency is a recurring aspect of his character that people will often cast aside because it's much easier to boil him down to "crazy serial killer" than actually look at the complexity of his situation and his own victimhood.

Throughout his Royal confidant, Akechi's perfectly crafted mask cracks several times. Moments like this show him offering an out, even if he's MUCH happier if you don't consider it.

He doesn't WANT Joker to change. As much as he claims to hate Joker, he admires his convictions. Wishes he had what Joker had. Wishes he could have been more like him. See: the Gun About rank up where he mentions how he used to want to be a hero of justice.

The creepy smiles and shit you see on 11/20 and in parts of the engine room are another mask Akechi wears. Akechi ALWAYS swaps out his masks to best serve his situation. Yet he still tells Shido not to kill the thieves, that Morgana is just a cat, and is perfectly content to leave them alone, and after his fight in the engine room, when the mask literally breaks...

We see his regrets on full display. He isn't proud. He's done making excuses. All those little times the mask broke in the Royal confidant were ways to set up this moment. He genuinely cares SO much about Joker, but that caring was dangerous to his objectives, so he HAD to hate him. He HAD to want to kill him to achieve his objective, and yet...

He still cares. He's putting out spikes in third sem, no doubt because he suspects his own fate should they destroy Maruki's world, but...

[maskedrivals]

The claim that "shuake wouldn't work out because Akechi tried to kill Joker" is funny to me because Joker canonically prefers "just everyday Akechi" over detective prince Akechi.

We have proof of Joker's preference in the third semester. Okumura was revived as a loving father in accordance to Haru's wishes and Akechi was revived as his maniacal, violent self in accordance to Joker's wishes.

Joker could have revived Akechi to be any iteration of kind and friendly but he didn't. Instead, he wanted Akechi to have the same personality as his black mask self, the same personality of the man who attempted to kill him. Joker canonically prefers Akechi's true personality, whether the player agrees with him or not.

[persona-brainrot-real]

Uhhh does anyone else wanna discuss ryuji the hotheaded vulgar boy who acts before he thinks and always yells at authority being the immediate person to keep Makoto from getting into fights when they first go to Kaneshiro’s palace or am I the only person going crazy abt it

Like wdym the guy who usually charges in headfirst no question no hesitation is the person keeping her from getting into fights that she pre-awakening would not be able to handle. Wdym he’s staying level headed for her safety. Wdym he’s the first to get mad and lash out at unfair authority or to enjoy fighting Shadows but knows to pick his battles to preserve someone else’s safety over his own. Especially when this is before they start knowing and trusting each other so he’s just doing it for her because he’d do it for anyone. Does anyone else hear this

[iwritenarrativesandstuff]

Suddenly remembered something I wanted to say re:Akechi, because I think it's really core to his character (at least the way I interpreted him?) and I feel like it explains a lot of his contradictions. Essentially, he is incapable of seeing himself as just a person - he's either the greatest hero/detective ever, or he's some violent monster, and it's like there's no in-between. It's very in keeping with his obvious superiority-inferiority complex, but it goes deeper than that too; when he's in a role, it seems like his self-perception kind of changes too depending on how he is perceived by others. He really does get a confidence boost from being the Detective Prince. He really does shut down emotionally as the Black Mask.

They're masks that he's made, and it's not that aspects of them aren't based in truth to some extent, but I think it goes to show why he's not actually that fantastic a liar (imo, I found the outright lies pretty obvious), but he is a very good actor. He's either an angel or a demon, and never a person, but there are conditions to that. He is an angel when he is perfect - to society. He is a demon when he is vengeful - again, to society. He is never a person, because he never was seen as one - to society. He was disregarded. To be anything of value or notoriety, whether that's hero or villain, he has to be wildly more or less than who he actually is, and he's been building these masks up for so long that I really think he lost sight of the actual person behind it all. And I don't think he wanted to see that person anyways, because that person "wasn't good enough" and I do think he'd rather be anything other than himself. That trickery, that deflection from the person within, in itself brings him pride and satisfaction. He wants to be loved and needed instead of being cast aside, but I also think that if he can't have that then he'd much rather be hated than never have mattered at all. He weaponizes his own loneliness - if he can't ever be accepted then he'll build his own pedestal apart from everyone else.

It's so fascinating too, because I just wonder how much of this he was consciously aware of pre, during, and post engine room. There's this recurring thing with him where he goes "I can only be myself" etc but I just want to shake him because, well, who is that, Akechi??? Or, who do you think that is? Do you actually have an answer? Is it predicated on your actual feelings or solely on your success at fooling everyone around you? Is there any part of you that you actually like that isn't based on a painstakingly constructed mask? Isn't it all mostly lies to deflect from the truth? Isn't it all founded mostly on truth, nonetheless?

It drives me insane. And I think this is a big reason why he breaks so hard in the engine room, because so much of his mask requires his "audience" to perform in a particular way. And here he is, and the Thieves have beaten him, so there goes the first mask, because he's no longer "perfect". He swings wildly into the ugliest sides of him, but this mask is broken too, amidst him vehemently and desperately denying that he has any other emotions than hatred and rage, or any other needs or desires than vengeance. And after that, it's just him. And they should reject him, right? That's what happens. He's not useful, he's not needed or perfect, his hands are stained with blood. But the Thieves, again, don't play the role he expects them to. They, despite everything, relate to him - because he is in fact very similar in a lot of ways and they acknowledge him as a person - not a hero, or idol, or villain, or tool, or unwanted child - but as a damaged teen like the rest of them. And he does not know what to do with that. His identity is intrinsically dependent on getting the right reactions from other people as a form of ingratiating himself - if he does not get that reciprocal reaction he's looking for, his act falters, and, I really do believe that so does his self-perception. That's why you see different aspects of him seep out when he's spending time with Joker, because Joker does not react the way he expects, and Akechi both does and does not like this, because it leaves him feeling both intrigued and vulnerable.

I do think this particular aspect of his character is something a lot of the Thieves don't fully grasp - certainly, I think Joker "I need the mask" Persona 5 understands to a degree, but the sheer degree of reliance and the level of pride attached to it is something that confuses him a little, I think, especially in Mementos Mission. I think the thief that comes closest is actually Morgana, who has a similar superiority-inferiority complex and a desperate need to be seen as competent and useful lest he be discarded. (This is a big part of why the rather lackluster writing with Morgana's arc frustrates me so much because I really do feel it was meant to be contrasted with Akechi's, but I digress.) Morgana is the one to make that emotional appeal to Akechi, which makes a degree of sense - Morgana struggled all along with finding a place in the world. His form leads others to underestimate him; he visually doesn't fit in. He's acting out the role of a chivalrous and cool phantom thief but is more pragmatic with how he views relationships, at least at first. He wants a place to belong where he is appreciated more than anything but his pride won't let him spit it out. Accepting that he belongs and that he is loved even if he really did have nothing of value to provide is a big part of the resolution of his arc. He tries to offer that learned lesson to Akechi in turn ("Follow your true feelings. Even if you think people hate you, or don't want you around-"), but Akechi just wasn't in the right space to listen. There's also an important distinction between the two - Morgana envies humans and looks up to them. Akechi envies humans and looks down on them. Morgana is perfectly happy once he is assured a place amongst the group, but Akechi see-saws wildly between wanting to belong and wanting to be a step above the rest and separating himself further. So while Morgana actually really did cut to the core of the issue, his appeal would never have worked at this point because a) Akechi's pride is dependent on him maintaining his solo act, and b) he just got outed as not actually hating Joker in front of seven other people including Joker himself lmao.

So, uh, sorry, Morgana. Points for trying.

[moniericreative]

Joker and Neurodivergency: The Very Long ADHD Yappathon

So this is mostly just an excuse to ramble, project, and headcanon.

But the longer I've been working on my Dialogue Compilation Project... The more I've gradually started to notice bits about Joker as a character that hit pretty close to experiences I've also dealt with as someone neurodivergent, specifically someone with inattentive ADHD.

So how about we delve into it?

So as a foreward to describe the explanation process: What exactly is Inattentive ADHD?

Inattentive ADHD is a type of ADHD where children have a hard time paying attention but don’t necessarily exhibit hyperactive behavior.

In simpler terms, it's more of an internal hyperactivity. Like your brain or emotional regulation are constantly unrestrained. For instance: - Your thoughts tend to get scattered - Your short-term memory's spotty (i.e. you may struggle to repeat back something you were just told a few seconds ago) - You tend to dissassociate out of the blue due to a lack of stimulation - Your emotions might go 0-to-100 where it may be "nothing" or "suddenly everything at once" depending on what's going on (especially with external stimulants like crowds or sudden noises) - Etcetera.

And because of that lack of internal structure, it's difficult to: - Maintain habits or time awareness for some folks - Bodily queues like hunger or sleep simply don't register unless in extremes (like a low blood sugar, hunger shakes, or overall sleep deprivation crapiness).

And that's not even getting into the executive dysfunction or auditory processing issues... Hoo boy... 💪🥲

There's a wide variety of symptoms for each individual, nobody's the same. Heck some of these are experiences someone else might not even have, either.

Some of them even overlap with autism as well (and some folks might have both), but out of respect as someone who isn't autistic, I'll personally refrain from discussing about it here to avoid accidental stereotyping (but feel free to add to this with personal anecdotes if you like!). Mostly just going off my own experiences with ADHD.

So how exactly does any of this apply to Joker?

Well, some of the oh-so-fun things about being ADHD is:

- Needing consistent reminders for tasks

- Executive Dysfunction (especially when things go wrong or you feel like crap)

- Being able to Hyperfocus (i.e. "being in the zone" to a degree that you tune everything else out including the time spent on the task).

We know based on the Persona series' time-slot system that typically, Joker will spend hours doing a single task and only that task. There's no multitasking or anything. He is focused solely on whatever he starts doing, be it studying, making tools, training, etcetera.

(There's also smaller moments like the P5 Anime as well, where he'll actually get mildly frustrated with anyone that distracts him from a task he's focusing on. Specifically Akechi when he keeps trying to have a conversation with him while he's concentrating on using a pour-over.)

That sounds about normal for anyone though, right?

Well, here's the thing.

He usually doesn't stop until Morgana suggests he should.

This is different from previous Persona protagonists like Yu or Makoto/Kotone because they don't have someone like Morgana constantly reminding them that they've done plenty of work, or that they should head to bed. They just do it themselves.

On top of that, while party members (both from P5 itself and prior games) will occasionally remind you to "do [blank] by a certain date," Morgana's the one character that will consistently remind Joker (and you) several times in a single day, ranging from maybe a line or two, to three/four different ones every day the week before the deadline.

The one time Morgana's not present do this?

No afternoon or evening events to work on, Joker's just so damn miserable without his close friend that he holes himself up in Leblanc's Attic and does nothing for two days straight. Not even in said attic, it's standing around missing Morgana or going to sleep. Good 'ol depressed-flavoured executive dysfunction if ever I've felt one. 🥲

And on top of the "reminders" bit... Joker's also the only protag who has handwritten notes about events in the game on top of the Calendar Menu's summary too (courtesy of the notebook Sojiro gives him). Sometimes the date in the menu itself will be blank, but Joker will have these written down anyways:

Which is something that's often super helpful for ADHD folks when recalling our long-term memories (one of our bigger strengths), as specific details like these can help us piece the entire situation back together even if it was months/years ago.

(Good thing too in his case especially, considering the Interrogation Room plan hinged on him remembering everything)

So that's surely it, right?

NOPE.

There's another very important detail about Joker that's gets heavily underlooked:

Now we already know some key bits in regards to this information:

Sojiro absolutely doesn't starve him, and in fact he's not only willing to feed Joker on his way out the door, but he's also willing to teach him how to make Leblanc's food too.

And we also that eventually culminates in Strikers as a beloved game mechanic: Joker's Kitchen, which Joker does entirely of his own volition.

It's probably safe to say that he at least doesn't have a food aversion. I mean come on, he's got endless pockets full of random crap from vending machines, some of which sound absolutely inhumane. Or he's at a clinic guzzling random drugs with reckless abandon like the unhinged weirdo he is.

But with the above context that he has a tendency to lose track of time without Morgana's input, it adds a layer to this line that makes a lot of sense. Between being distracted by a task, and sometimes not having "hunger signals" at all, a lot of us tend to not even realize we've been starving all day. It's usually a state of "normal" nothing until oops it's Sudden Hunger Shakes O'Clock.

Which can also develop into just generally eating small portions of food as well, because again, we tend to "not feel hungry" unless it's extreme, and that can really affect our degree of appetite/intake.

Or in other cases, including my own and probably Joker's too until Strikers, there's a lack of general interest in food as a whole too. It's yet another time management task that you have to remember to do, every few hours, every single day, every single week, every single month, every single year. So you'll probably grab anything just so long as it's filling enough to get you by for the day. (Unless you have food aversion... Godspeed us all in finding filling safe foods that don't suddenly change and make us hurl 🫡💦). It's necessary of course, but there's a tedium to it sometimes regardless of the meal that you really have to fight with just to keep living.

Sumi gag aside, come on. Look at the sheer difference. That bun's smaller than Morgana's head and it's the barest minimum snack you can find anywhere.

"But what about the Big Bang Burger Challenge?" Come on man, we all know he's not doing it for the sake of eating. He's doing it to get smarter and prettier and kinder. The power of processed junk food filled with microplastics and employee tears I guess.

Distractability and focusing on a particular interest.

Obviously we don't go "SQUIRREL" at the drop of a hat like an excitable dog (despite how often people like to use that stereotype). But for some of us, our minds do tend to flitter around a bit in search of something to stimulate our brains.

Kinda like a zoo animal pacing around an enclosure, except it's our squishy brain trapped in a cage of bone and too little dopamine. 🫠

And in the abscence of something to work on or talk about, that can range from zoning out in classes/discussions (which Joker does a lot) to dissociate the boredom away (which ironically most people tend to see as "endless patience," if only they knew...), or looking for things to work on or talk about (which he... also tends to do a lot, depending on how much of the maps you explore).

And in Joker's case specifically, a lot of that tends to end up with him sticking his nose into situations that benefits the specific thing that gives him a purpose/drive (being a Phantom Thief), but are absolutely not normal things a teenager should be getting into.

Like dealing with the Yakuza. Or being the fake boyfriend of a drunk woman. Or paying his homeroom teacher to be a maid for him. Or a homoerotic shoot-out (... well, three separate times actually if you count an arcade game) with another teenage weirdo. Or T-Posing in a church to understand The Passion Of The Christ. Or unholy amounts of burger-eating to raise his "social stats."

He's willing to get into all kinds of mischief if it helps the Phantom Thieves. If it doesn't, then he's not particularly interested in starting anything with someone. More often than not, it takes Morgana mentioning how someone's services or skills "could help the thieves" to get Joker to be interested in them.

Or the person being especially pushy for him to cave in Maruki's case, to which Joker will make the same rationalization instead despite his initial pushback:

He's so dedicated to being a Phantom Thief that it's equal parts inspiring, relatable, hysterical, and sad to watch.

Especially since at the end of almost every single confidant (bar the party members', and Akechi's and Maruki's who both peg him as a thief pretty quickly through happenstance), every single one of them find out he's a Phantom Thief on their own. Because this poor boy is so tunnel-visioned on his role as "Joker" and helping people that he's about as subtle as a steel chair to the face and woefully unaware of it until it's told to him. 🥹

Lastly, NO TOUCHY.

Honestly, probably my favorite underrated bit about Joker that barely gets talked about.

Across the different P5 mediums (well, two as far as I'm aware of), there's at least one on-screen instance in each of Joker being touch-aversed whenever other people invade his personal space. Usually whenever he has physical contact with someone else (like any of the romaceable confidants, or Akechi), he's the one initiating it first.

In the P5 Anime you've got the bathouse scene between him, Ryuji, and Yusuke after Madarame's palace. In it, Ryuji jumps away from the hot water coming out of the faucet and bumps into Joker.

His response directed at Ryuji?

In English: "Please scoot back."

In Japanese (according to subs anyway): "You're making it hotter."

Both of which he says while hunched up with his shoulders to his ears and shooting Ryuji an unhappy expression.

Seriously. That is a "dead-inside and accepting reality" stare if ever I've felt one, choppy animation quality aside.

In P5 Royal meanwhile, you've got Yusuke's third awakening in Third Semester, where Joker says this when he suddenly grips his shoulders:

Both of which are basically the exact same message, just told in different ways.

... And that's not even going into how more often than not, any time we see Joker being touched on-screen by someone else, they're usually restraining or physically abusing him.

Whether you want to chalk that up to trauma from his initial arrest in the Shido Flashback, or as a ND aspect of his, is entirely up to you. Personally I'm leaning more on the latter as he usually only establishes this boundary with people he trusts (whereas he just outright avoids contact altogether around strangers), and he only breaks this boundary himself around specific people he cares about.

So with all that rambling finally done, hopefully this helps others notice some really cool bits of characterization around this loveable goofball. I won't say this a "100% accurate" interpretation of Joker as a character because everyone sees him differently. He is a self-insert after all.

But compared to the previous Persona protags (hell, even Atlus protags in general), Joker's always the one I immediately fall back to as the favorite for some reason. The coat is snazzy, he has a smirk that makes all the ladies and gay detectives weak at the knees, but... I could never really pinpoint the actual why until now.

Whether Atlus intended Joker to be neurodivergent-coded is up in the air, but there's just so many aspects about him beyond the player's control that hit really close to home, and I'm glad that he's such a popular and beloved character for the traits that make him him.

[cookiecomics]

🔍 Zoe's Persona Attribute Analysis: 🔍 (Repost from Twitter)

My assessment of what different persona attributes say about the characters and character arcs of the user:

[minttsaltt]

what would you think of akechi n yusuke being friends lovers or even anything beyond the crumby bits of interaction they have if youre willing to think about it

they are so the theater kids

maybe they could've been good friends ...

the fact they both had give their everything to someone else, their "father", given nothing in return and left behind for power, but Yusuke was able to escape it and find his place with the Phantom Thieves and Akechi couldn't is just so yeah

but madarame did care for yusuke, akechi can't say the same for his father

maybe if it happened just a few years earlier, things would've turned out different...

[taldigi]

dude I feel so lame sometimes cause I don't think that Goro Aketchi is that interesting of a character compared to others but he's everywhere like an invasive termite

[smolstarthief]

Ok I can fully see why Atlus went with this Tarot for Sumi:

So I can't help but think now:

"Kasumi" can represent the Reversed Faith card: Putting her faith in a lie and relying on someone who genuinely had her best interests at heart but was ultimately going to destroy her if she doesn't stop running and being overly dependent. She does have small moments of overconfidence as well (partially because of Sumire's own biased view of her sister).

Sumire meanwhile can be the card Upright: Letting go of her past and self-hatred. She's reborn with new confidence and loving herself as opposed to living in an idealized delusion. She also finds a balance between her beliefs and the Thieves' own (it's ok to help yourself and be self-reliant but don't be afraid to rely on others to help you if needed).

[corvus-ace]

Okumura Haru, aka Noir: an analysis

so, my friend Keeper wanted me to help them get a sense of Haru's character because they missed her introduction and a fair amount of her confidant, and the result was this analysis. fast forward like a month and I realized "hey, this would be fun to post online actually" and here I am lol. fair warning, it's long and also in bullet point paragraphs cause I was trying to write quickly at the time and have since fleshed a few of them out a bit more (I have a lot of feelings about Haru lmao)

without further ado, here we go!

Haru's past

-first and foremost, Haru is the heir to a fuck off huge corporation. her father basically owns the equivalent of mcdonalds. though she doesn't always act like it, she is fundamentally a rich kid

-now in my original analysis, it had been a while since I'd actually gone through Haru's confidant, and I had mistakenly believed that Haru had at least to some extent been raised to take over the business. pretty sure I thought that cause I can't tell the difference between actual canon and stuff I've read in fics lol. but after playing through her confidant again and realizing she actually had zero business experience whatsoever actually makes her even more impressive in my eyes, because she more or less had to teach herself how to run an entire corporation, and by the end of her confidant she has a pretty solid handle on things already (doubly impressive because her confidant starts so late game, so depending on how fast you play through it... she's learning all this in like, two months max if you're getting through it before 3rd sem)

-in addition to that: rather than her father retiring and placing her in charge, she is literally thrust into it by her father's death. so she's learning all this business management, getting used to phantom thievery, and grieving her father all at the same time???? I could never

-presumably Haru inherited everything after her father's death, putting her in full control of his wealth? (I don't really know how businesses and shareholders work.) Haru's mother doesn't appear to have been in the picture, although to be fair that could mean she's either dead, has left, or is just never shown on-screen. I don't remember any distinct mentions of her

-her father's view of her: the conspiracy has obviously been in action for at least around two years (based on the timeline of the mental shutdowns and psychotic breaks inflicted by Akechi after he joined the conspiracy). Okumura Kunikazu's view of his daughter would presumably have become distorted during this time; obviously we don't necessarily know the timeline of any Palace formations except Futaba's and Sae's, since one was shown on-screen and the other discussed more than once. by the time we begin Okumura's Palace, he views Haru as nothing more than a tool for him to use in his financial and political ambitions ("subservient puppet" and her cognitive form's appearance as an obedient and extremely weak robot). he also is ignorant of her wants and needs, evident by him arranging to marry her off to Sugimura for his own political gain

-now, because Okumura becomes so distant from Haru as his Palace develops, whether intentionally or not, Haru is kept fairly far away from her father's unethical business practices. obviously she has her own suspicions as indicated in game, but seeing as her father doesn't really tell her anything, she presumably still had at least a decent opinion of him up until his Palace

Haru's character/personality

-Haru is very kind by nature. her childhood initially encouraged this (the cafe her grandfather used to run) but because of her father's distortion and changed parenting style she has mostly retreated into becoming a "seen but not heard" people pleaser. this results in a very reserved persona, but she isn't exactly shy - she is willing to reach out to help people, is generally friendly when approached (if you go up to her in the Shujin hallways before you even start the Palace, she's very polite, even if not explicitly cheerful), and as proved not long after we formally meet her:

-if a core belief of hers is challenged, she will stand up for it. one of our first interactions with her in game, she isn't afraid to tell us that after listening to our flimsy explanation of our motives as the Thieves, she cannot work with us. she calls us out immediately on not helping our own teammate, and tells us she cannot work with people who aren't certain of their motives/goals (I don't remember her exact wording but I remember it was definitely something along those lines). in short, she cannot trust us to truly want to help her father

-first proper meeting: other than the seconds immediately after her entrance alongside Morgana in her father's palace, she is very flustered and constantly getting things confused. based on my understanding of her as a person, I believe this is because although she already considers Morgana a friend, he's clearly established a role for her to play as well (replacing the Phantom Thieves with her, taking the spotlight for future changes of heart, etc) and she knows, deep down, that she is still being used, even if Morgana does have good intentions and wants to teach her to help people. deep down she knows this isn't the real her either. her full Persona awakening showcases this pretty clearly with all the fucking guns and rocket launchers hidden in Milady's skirt that are finally revealed (aka Haru's full, true strength simmering for a long time, hidden beneath the surface, because who in her life would have ever wanted her to be anything but obedient and weak?)

-she's also the one to push Morgana to be honest both with himself and the other Thieves, to admit he doesn't really want to leave and that he feels like this is the only place he belongs. she's struggled with being honest with herself in the past, accepting her true self and especially displaying it, and the Thieves helped her finally do that; given her kind nature I'm not surprised she wanted to be able to return the favor

-as we get to know her, we learn Haru is still very naturally kind and genuinely friendly. the thing is, she doesn't have a lot of friends. we don't see her interact with anyone (other than her father and fiance) beyond basic pleasantries until her formal introduction, including at Shujin. I'm fairly reasonably certain this is because almost everyone she's ever met has only seen her as "Okumura's daughter" rather than just Haru, her own person

Noir

-Haru is one of the strongest physical damage dealers, alongside Ryuji and Yusuke (both in terms of normal melee attacks and her powerful gun-type skills). she's also the only Thief other than Akechi who has gun-type skills on her Persona - and it's important to note that Akechi can only use gun-type skills in the third semester, with Loki and eventually Hereward, so Haru having gun-type skills significantly earlier in game than Akechi (especially with high crit chances) is quite useful. also her weapons are a grenade launcher and a large battle axe so that says a lot about her

-her Persona uses psy magic and ailment skills in addition to the gun-type skills. psy is particularly important since it triggers many kinds of technical hits, extra useful if you have a wide variety of ailments you can inflict via Joker's Personas. this also makes sense given the identity of her first tier Persona, Milady de Winter, the uncommonly beautiful and extraordinarily cunning female spy featured in The Three Musketeers by Alexandre Dumas. Milady is also described as ruthless, which I feel is a good representation of how Haru acts as a Phantom Thief. now in addition to the other skills, she does have the ability to cure certain ailments and also recover more quickly from ailments, and can use heat riser to give significant buffs to a party member and makarakarn/tetrakarn to protect a party member from a magic or physical attack respectively. obviously the specific skills she has available to her depends on how you choose to build her in game (I personally tend to lean towards emphasizing her gun-type and support skills over her ailment usage/curing, since I have no shortage of ailments in Joker's Persona stock and prefer to use Haru as a damage dealer, but that's not really relevant lmao)

-also, Haru is a sadist who loves killing/destroying Shadows. probably all that repressed anger and unresolved trauma. as rich as her father is, I seriously doubt he paid for a therapist for her. rich and emotionally distant fathers are just like that

The Empress

-I have some issues with her confidant that I think are about to become very evident

-Haru is the Empress Arcana (number III) and it shows. she is a girl in a position of power (head of a corporation) and as mentioned before, she is very kind by nature, and quite nurturing as shown by her love and skill for taking care of plants. the people in charge of assigning cards did a particularly good job with her

-her confidant is less based on personal relationships like Ryuji's or Makoto's; instead it focuses on professional development and relationships with subordinates and corporate associates and shareholders. she spends a lot of time throughout her confidant events figuring out who to trust and how to shift Okumura Foods into something she can truly be proud of, with a strong focus on undoing all the unethical practices her father put in place. though she of course wasn't expecting to be put in charge so soon, she does a very good job managing the sudden responsibilities. we also have no reason to believe her grades were slipping during this time, so she appears to be able to manage her schoolwork (from a prestigious high school, no less) right alongside her new responsibilities

Miscellaneous

-Haru has no qualms about spending large amounts of money on her friends - we literally went to the equivalent of fucking disneyland after her father's Palace and she thought it was no big deal, although to be fair to her, that was technically a special situation as the park had already been rented out by her father for a company event that ended up being cancelled due to his change of heart, so she really just took over the reservation. it's worth noting that this point is heavily represented in fanfics (based on what I've seen across ao3), as fanon Haru is, for example, often willing to give Yusuke in particular plenty of money for food, train fares, etc. I have seen at least two fics (though I don't remember the authors or the titles) where she happily spends lots of money on the other Thieves

-out of the Thieves, Haru is one of the most vocal about her hatred and mistrust of the police. this is very, very evident in Strikers, and remains consistent throughout that story (and, side note, it's fucking hilarious seeing how offput Zenkichi is about it every single time)

-she also later embraces her brief stint as the "Beauty Thief" and it's something of an inside joke amongst the Thieves (not sure that's the right term but idk how else to describe it). there aren't any hard feelings; the Thieves are already pretty chill about it the moment she joins the group anyways. the other Thieves affectionately call her the Beauty Thief in Strikers, particularly Futaba and Morgana, and Haru is happy to really lean into it sometimes (Zenkichi does not understand this either and I think she enjoys that)

Final notes - based on my impressions of her; not really analysis

-Haru is one of the most willing to fight god, and one of the most likely to win

-mixture of cottagecore lesbian and warrior princess

-her association with purple is partially rooted in her psy abilities, of course, but it's also a color associated with royalty and elegance, particularly fitting for the Empress Arcana

-Haru is not allowed to drive and should never be allowed behind a steering wheel (Keeper, if you're reading this, you'll understand this much later)

-kinda already mentioned this but she's very good at gardening (can grow hp and sp restoratives for the Metaverse)

-she took ballet for years and was good at it, which makes sense since she's quite flexible, as well as having natural grace

Conclusion

well, if you made it this far, I hope you liked this self-indulgent analysis! I relate to Haru a lot, so I like to think I have a good sense of her, and hopefully I've done a good job of representing her in this post. there are a few other Thieves I have enough thoughts on to write analyses similar to this one, so I'll probably be making those pretty soon. and again, although this is very personally motivated, I do still hope someone out there will like reading them!

(and Keeper - I know you already read the first version of this and still wanted to read this version too, so a big thanks for enabling my brainrot lmao)

[afterthelambs]

PLEASE spill the Makoto cop tea. I'm always down to hear people's thoughts on that

Thanks anon! I do my best to keep this blog positive-vibes only, but since you asked I will answer. Warning: DO NOT read this post if you do not want to see any criticisms about Makoto Nijima from P5 + discussions of police. This is not hate towards the character or her fans. It's just criticism for the writing choices and their implications for her.

Makoto Nijima does NOT want to reform the police. There's a mandela effect in the fandom where everyone seems to think she does, but rewatch her rank 10. Reform isn't mentioned at all. I'm so serious. What she actually says is this:

Within her confidant, the context is the host that was preying on her friend Eiko. Wanting to stop situations like that is good and makes sense 👍 The writers framed her decision to become a cop as a response to the most clean-cut black-and-white situation ever.

But here's the thing though: what happens when the lawless and the victims are the same people? Because in the real world, crime tends to concentrate among the poor and marginalized. The real world is not black and white. And I try to separate my personal experiences with the law from the media/art I engage with, but that doesn't work here because the game at large doesn't portray society as black and white.

There are a number of people in this game that do wrong because they have been hurt or are marginalized or did not receive proper help. A lot of mementos requests are about 'lawless' people and yet many are portrayed as 'due to systemic issues' or a lack of support or developing mental illness. It's also not a coincidence that Akechi is the most marginalized of all the phantom thieves and he was the one who did the most crime. There is deliberate social commentary here. People do not become lawless out of nowhere. They are shaped by their circumstances. And the game itself sympathizes with these people, focusing on changing/ helping them. The game's conclusion is that providing support and rehabilitation is the solution. Rehabilitative justice > Punitive justice.

Police wouldn't achieve that. Police in the game are framed as corrupt and incompetent at their core. Our protagonist is one of their biggest victims to demonstrate how they are weaponized against the weak. Even Sae Nijima at the end of the story has shifted to become a defense attorney rather than attempting to reform it (best character arc btw) because she recognized that the system is broken. And you can't even blame it just on Shido controlling the police because we see that the problems persist beyond him. By the end of the story they remain useless or outright harmful. The police do not help or rehabilitate, they only punish.

So no, this isn't me projecting my personal issues with cops onto the story because within the game's own story, law enforcement is not the solution. If it were a question of reform, we could debate about whether police reform is possible, but again: Makoto doesn't care about reform. It never comes up. According to the writers, she wants to be a cop because she thinks not enough lawless people are being punished. You can argue that her wanting to 'head an organization' means she wants to be in a position of power where she can reform them, but remember that police only enforce the law. They do not make the law. If reform was her goal she would be a politician. (I honestly thought that's what she was set up to be, since she was student council president and all but I digress)

Also a small detail, but notice how she mentions destroying the lawless before she mentions helping victims? It's super minor but I think it's indicative of the cop mentality. There's greater priority on punishing than helping.

I also dislike this conclusion to her arc because it's net zero character growth. You're telling me the character that was rebelling against corrupt adults' orders is now becoming a cop, the biggest bootlicking profession of them all? She started the story being a well-intentioned pushover, and she's ending her story being a well-intentioned pushover. And it doesn't matter whether she as an individual is a good person or not. All cops comply to be active participants in a system that is designed to hurt the weak and prop up the powerful.

TLDR: You do not help victims by punishing the 'lawless'. You help victims by helping victims. Period. Makoto becoming a cop is a contradiction of this and her own character arc. Either the writers did her dirty by not thinking this through or this is meant to be who she really is, and both those possibilities upset me.

[megaderping]

A while ago, I made a post going into parts of the missable Sae Palace arc text messages, such as these:

However, that post neglected to include a full transcript. I have since transcribed all of these texts, which occur on 10/30, 11/3, 11/7, and 11/11. You must not infiltrate Sae's Palace until after these dates in order to get these.

Transcripts below the cut! Crossposted to the P5 sub.

The first of these texts takes place on 10/30. You will miss this text if you infiltrate the Palace on the first available day.

--

Ryuji: Yo, Akechi.

Akechi: What is it?

Ryuji: You got any idea who the true culprit might be?

Futaba: Oh yeah! You said you saw a masked guy, right?

Haru: I wanted to ask about that too.

Futaba: Did you really see him? The masked guy's gotta be the true culprit, right?

Akechi: If this so-called true culprit is acting alone, then there can be no mistake about it.

Futaba: I see.

Yusuke: The next question is, who is that masked man?

Akechi: Unfortunately, I do not know that much.

Futaba: Ugh, you're useless.

Akechi: That is quite harsh.

Futaba: Aw, you're making me blush!

Ann: That wasn't a compliment...

Akechi: At this point, I have yet to even grasp any clues. But once this is dealt with, I will surely capture him. I promise you that.

We'll be counting on you.

Akechi: Perfect. Leave it to me. It may sound somewhat odd for me to say this, but I am an exceptional detective. I assure you, I will catch this culprit. Look forward to it.

Can you do it?

Akechi: Hm? Do you not trust me?

[The rest plays out the same as the other option.]

--

What's funny about this exchange is how the Thieves know Akechi's deal and are just playing along. It makes some of the reactions (especially from Haru and Futaba) read as comically passive aggressive. However, the more interesting texts start coming on 11/03, 11/07, and 11/11.

Starting with 11/03.

--

Ryuji: Goddamit. People're acting like we were the ones who killed 'em.

Yusuke: I have even heard them say we are assassins hired to deal with psychotic breakdown victims.

Ann: Ugh, that's obviously not what we're trying to do.

Akechi: This must be part of the plan to shift blame onto the Phantom Thieves. After all, the true culprit is the one killing the people on that ranking list.

This is unforgivable

Akechi: Indeed. I have no intentions of letting this slide.

This is total BS

Akechi: But that is the truth for the general public at the moment.

[Both lead to...]

Futaba: Man, this culprit guy really won't let up. I don't remember ever doing anything that'd make someone hate us THIS much.

Haru: He used my father as well...

Akechi: I cannot fathom what his motive may be... We will just have to capture and interrogate him.

Makoto: But before that, we need to change my sister's heart. That's our first step toward stopping him.

Akechi: I must agree. The true culprit will be caught, but before that we must deal with Sae-san. If ranking is being taken into consideration, perhaps I will be targeted too... Just kidding.

--

This tells us that Shido is deliberately having Akechi target high ranking targets on the PhanSite in order to terrify the public with abhorrent acts of violence, much like he did in April. It's a way to make people feel scared and more reliant on Shido to be the change that Japan needs. But if you secure the treasure as quickly as possible, you will miss this added information that really deepens how cruel he truly is by ordering hits just to paint a convenient narrative.

And this is definitely Shido's idea, because on 11/7 we get this gem...

--

Haru: Do you think the culprit could be someone at our school?

Yusuke: That seems somewhat sudden.

Haru: I mean, didn't they find a calling card in Principal Kobayakawa's office? I thought you had suggested that idea yourself, Yusuke.

Yusuke: That was just a generalization.

Haru: But if Mako-chan noticed what was going on with you guys, somebody else might have too.

Ann: So you think that "somebody else" is trying to frame us? What's gotten into you so suddenly?

Haru: Nothing has gotten into me. I just think there's a chance the culprit is related to Shujin...

You might be right. / There's no way.

[Both get the same response:]

Yusuke: What is all of this about? It's too soon to be jumping to conclusions like this.

Haru: Well, I was hoping to hear a professional opinion on the matter... What are your thoughts, Akechi-kun?

Akechi: The possibility is not zero, but it does seem a bit unlikely.

Haru: Why do you ask?

Akechi: A normal person would never do such a thing. They would have no reason to callously murder your principal.

Haru: And what if they weren't normal?

Akechi: Are you implying they kill for the sheer pleasure of it?

Haru: No, not like that. What I mean is, you need certain special abilities to navigate through that world, yes?

Akechi: Ah, so you're saying the culprit is a Persona-user.

Haru: Yes.

Akehci: I see... How perceptive. Truthfully, I was considering that possibility myself. But it is difficult to think they have ties to Shujin Academy.

Haru: Why?

Akechi: There would be no motive for them to carry out such a cruel plot. Clearly our culprit is acting behind the scenes to accomplish some grand objective. He likely has accomplices. It is even possible that he is being controlled by someone.

Makoto: Controlled? By whom?

Akechi: If I knew that, I do not think we would be in this much trouble.

Haru: I see... So even someone like you doesn't know, Akechi-kun.

Futaba: Looks like our genius detective's not so much of a genius after all.

Akechi: Haha, harsh as always. If there is one thing I know, it is that the culprit behind all of this is extremely shrewd. But don't worry. I will catch him, no matter what it takes.

I'm looking forward to that. / I wonder if you can do it.

Akechi: More importantly, we need to focus on changing Sae-san's heart for the time being. If we cannot do that, everything we have done will be for naught. We absolutely must succeed here.

--

There is so much to unpack here. By far, it's my favorite of these texts because of the light it sheds on Akechi's motivations and intentions. First, we have Haru pressing the subject. She clearly wants to squeeze answers out of Akechi. She's subtly putting him on the spot because she knows...

But Akechi lets slip that no, actually, he doesn't do this for pleasure. That actually, he is being controlled and that the true mastermind is someone shrewd that he intends to take down. Amidst all of Akechi's lies and platitudes during this part of the story, we see a crack in his perfectly prepared mask. In a way, this is the most honest we've seen Akechi outside of his Royal confidant and on 8/28 and 9/3. In a way, he's sharing little slivers of himself with the rest of the team (either begrudgingly or for reasons he doesn't fully understand) the way he already has with Joker.

And it actually explains a few things that happen later. Namely, the way he downplays the need to kill the other Phantom Thieves until after the election (keep in mind, he does intend to knock Shido down from his pedestal) as well as treating Morgana as "just a cat." Obviously, this doesn't absolve Akechi of his guilt, but it does make it clear that he isn't as remorseless as a lot of people believe, even if no amount of sunk cost fallacy is gonna undo the damage he's done.

Hell, when combined with his lamentation that he didn't meet Joker years ago in the engine room and his reaction to Morgana explaining changes of heart, these texts further solidify that his feelings toward both Joker and the Thieves are extremely complex and absurdly messy.

Plus we get Haru and Futaba both taking shots at him, which is fun and also extremely deserved. :p

Moving on, there's one final missable November text on 11/11. It goes as follows:

--

Akechi: So, about the investigation... It seems they have no evidence that can truly be called as such.

Ryuji: Well duh.

Akechi: However, it seems they have no intentions of changing their plans.

Ann: They're going to investigate at both Shujin Academy and Leblanc, right?

Akechi: Indeed.

Makoto: Hm. I can understand Shujin... But why Leblanc?

Akechi: The key is Wakaba Isshiki.

Futaba: Is it cause of my mom's research?

Akechi: Correct. Her study of cognitive psience is closely connected to this case. Of that, there can be no doubt.

Futaba: Then this guy's really the mastermind behind all of this?

Akechi: That would be the case. There can be no mistake... The one who erased cognitive psience from this world is surely the culprit behind everything.

Makoto: And getting rid of the research was the only way they could use its powers?

Akechi: How perceptive of you. Yes, that is the only logical conclusion. Both Sae-san and I were searching for clues about that research. But just as we were about to deepen our investigation, this commotion began. And to make things even more troublesome... There was only one person with strong connections to both Shujin Academy and Leblanc. And that person turned out to be the leader of the Phantom Thieves.

Yusuke: So the culprit had calculated all of this in advance?

Akechi: Heavens no. That would be impossible. This was a miracle created by the coinciding of multiple chance situations.

Ryuji: Dude, you hear that? He says you got miraculously bad luck. Don't that make you feel good?

I'm so lucky.

Ryuji: Y'know, shitty luck is still luck.

That's not funny.

Ryuji: C'mon, you gotta be able to laugh it off at this point.

Haru: Yes, your luck really is impressive.

Akechi: At any rate, that's the current state of things. And that's why we must obstruct the investigation at all costs.

Makoto: Yes, that's our intention.

--

Once again, we have Akechi laying it on thick that Shido is the one behind everything, as he was the one who ordered the hit on Wakaba, stole her research, and had his own research team develop it further. And keep in mind, Shido's own words, first on 11/21...

"Those who get in the way must be eliminated at times—that's the correct way to use the Metaverse."

And later, his Shadow states, "Moreover, it was thanks to me that Akechi was able to properly use his power to begin with."

So we know that even the idea of inducing mental shutdowns came from him, even if Akechi offered his Metaverse abilities as part of his stupid revenge plan.

What this shows is Akechi wants to hint that there is this bigger puppet master, even if he's going to betray the Thieves, and this is actually really consistent with his Royal confidant. In Rank 7, he uses a billiard games as a metaphor for the upcoming betrayal kill and gives Joker an out, even if he's much happier if you assert your rivalry instead. This makes his warnings about the connections to Wakaba carry a very similar feeling, and since these texts were in Vanilla, it's likely that the Royal confidant built on this foundation.

But then there's the fact that the Thieves are fully in the know that Akechi is going to betray them, so it recontextualizes all these texts where they are genuinely trying to squeeze as much info out of him as they can and likely having to restrain themselves hard (especially Futaba and Haru).

And all of this you will never see unless you delay the infiltration until 11/12. So, the next time you play Persona 5 Royal, it might be worthwhile to delay Sae's Palace to see these in-game! They're really cool and it's a shame they aren't scripted events.

[maskedrivals]

Foreshadowing and symbolism in Persona 5 Royal - Maruki and the cat

Maruki's Confidant Rank 4

Maruki: I spotted a kitten that had gotten itself stuck up in a tree. I tried rescuing it since I felt bad for it, but I ended up with the clawing of a lifetime for the effort. I had no idea a cat's claws were so sharp...

Joker: Talk about a reward.

Maruki: Ahaha, that's true. But I was able to rescue the kitten, so all's well that ends well.

The kitten represents the phantom thieves, who didn't want to be saved from the situations they were stuck in. This is where Maruki reveals to the player that he is resolved to rescue others, even if they don't want to be saved — even if they fight him over it.

The Thieves Den Conversation

Maruki: The other day, I saved a cat from a tall tree. I hadn't climbed like that in quite a while.

Sumire: You did? That's so sweet, Dr. Maruki!

Maruki: The thing is, even though I was trying to help, the cat lashed out at me with its claws... And then I fell right out of the tree. It was a bit of a disaster.

Sumire: O-Oh... That does sound rough...

Akechi: You're so naïve. Trying to be a good person only gets you taken advantage of. You'd be a perfect target for scammers.

This time, Maruki says that he fell out of the tree and it was a disaster. This conversation can only be seen after you've completed Maruki's confidant and have unlocked the third semester. Maruki falling out of the tree foreshadows the end of Maruki's boss fight — both end with Maruki falling, unable to save those who had resisted him.

Sumire and Akechi's reactions to the cat story also resemble their feelings in the third semester. Sumire is sympathetic towards Maruki, and Akechi mocks Maruki for trying to save a cat who wants to be left alone.

[persona-brainrot-real]

Sometimes I think about how if you go by canon ages and assume akechi is 17 when the game starts and turns 18 in June, going by the timeline of events mentioned by Futaba of her mother dying of a mental shutdown about 2-3 years ago, then that means that Akechi was first turned into a bounty hunter for power-hungry politicians at the age of 14 or 15? And that’s only talking about the first event that we as the player know about. It makes sense she’d be the first person executed, but it’s not canon? Meaning that Shido saw a fourteen/fifteen year old boy and saw him not only as someone expendable enough to kill but as someone who could be easily coerced into murder and akechi was so desperate to get revenge that he agreed and undertook that murder. He was a contract killer for an upcoming politician younger than Futaba canonically is. It makes me so

[iwritenarrativesandstuff]

Ok, I think I have a pretty good idea of why a lot of Akechi's dialogue is... like that.

So, even before his confidant truly started, I noticed that he has a real knack for directing the flow of a conversation. This is very fitting for someone who is both a detective and skilled at interviews - when there is a topic and a goal, Akechi is in his element.

All this to say, he's actually kind of controlling when it comes to conversational flow. He probes for information, or turns the conversation around to a particular topic, usually the Phantom Thieves. He manages to take a few of Joker's dialogue options and spin them so they sound mildly incriminating in the context he's placed them in - the only way to truly get around this is to pick answers that feign indifference, and even then, that's more than a bit telling. He's clearly very good at this kind of thing.

But then, we get conversations where either Joker does something he didn't expect, or else he doesn't have a particular goal in mind - and the conversation stutters. In the first instance, Joker does something (a particularly egregious example is putting his glasses on him and fluffing his hair in rank 3) which both leaves him wrong-footed and no longer in perfect control of the situation. He just kind of... freezes, for awhile. It's hilarious. He has no idea how to respond.

He picks up control again in the phone call afterwards, having chosen to play into it, turning this "fooling the crowds" into a kind of game or secret between them. Nice save.

But in instances where there isn't an obvious topic and the goal is somewhat nebulous, for instance, that one Leblanc scene, it becomes pretty apparent that Akechi doesn't have the right "script" to go off of. Again, it's particularly notable in that scene, because I'm fairly sure he didn't have any specific reason to be at Leblanc, other than him looking for a quiet spot now that public opinion has turned on him. And because there isn't anything specific he's digging for, he kind of just ends up throwing things at the wall to see what will stick. Probing for any kind of recognizable reaction that he can jump on and work with, and that just doesn't really happen in this scene.

He references Sae, a woman in a respectable position, to Sojiro, but instead of that netting a welcome, it earns his ire, given Sae's recent actions against him. He then tries to greet Joker, his... rival? friend? enemy? person who at least seems to somewhat enjoy spending time with him? But Joker's responses are somewhat short, and Akechi practically wilts. He tries to commiserate by oversharing. He tries to involve Futaba and reaches out for the only topic of interest he can think of around "young people". He compliments the coffee. He compliments Joker. He tries to invoke that connection between them. None of it is really sticking, nor does it serve as a jumping off point for him to steer the conversation, or even really start one.

So, he basically just ends up having a one-sided chat with himself and then leaves. Hilarious. Also a little sad, if I'm being honest. It's really giving "guy with no friends who only knows how to speak to adults" energy. If there's no specific purpose to the exchange, or he is not in control of its direction, he seems to be kind of out of his depth. He succeeds only in being a little awkward and confusing, more than anything.