#INDONESIA MENTIONED
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NEW DEFUNCTLAND ⁉️ HISTORY OF KIDZANIA ⁉️⁉️⁉️⁉️
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KIDZANIA JAKARTA AT 47:25!!!! FIRST INDONESIA MENTION IN A DEFUNCTLAND VIDEO 🇮🇩🇮🇩🇮🇩🇮🇩
#defunctland#INDONESIA MENTIONED#SEAbros we won....#i have beef with kidzania sign designs im so sorry that shit needs a REDESIGN from me#making my cousin's son the mayor of kidzania jakarta rn FUCK HERU BUDI!!!#now that i think about it....#there's something poetic about my fourth-grade bullies playing as COPS in kidzania...
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MURIEL LISTENS TO NIKI AAAAAAAAAAAAA I'm surprised (and HAPPY!!) that more ppl know her
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Medicine Pocket and Baby Blue as highschool students (they get sent to the counseling often for sleeping in class TOGETHER almost EVERY TIME without fail)
[ translation: first image’s speech bubble says “hey, math class soon”, second image’s speech bubble says “wake up, will you?” ]
#INDONESIA MENTION#reverse 1999#Medicine Pocket#Baby Blue#reverse 1999 fanart#mochadoodles#medpoc girlkissing collection#nblw#medblue#babypocket
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In the spirit of releasing all emotional debts on New Year's Eve, I’m going to open up about my frustrations regarding Desa aka dinosaurusgede aka the creator of Maaf.
For context, she made a Twitter account around the time that Himaruya properly introduced the newly canonized cast of SEA nations (Philippines, Indonesia, Singapore, and Malaysia). Like many other fans, she rode the nostalgia wave in creating content of them. By this point in time, Maaf was more or less a “finished” story to her — whatever Hetalia/SEAtalia content she published from that point onward was not as a continuation of, nor even as a reboot, of Maaf (although she did mention entertaining that idea). For the most part, the newer works she uploaded on Twitter were independent stories and were not necessarily linked to one other either.
Regrettably, I cannot present the problematic page/s for a more thorough and guided scrutiny because she deleted her Twitter account. Unless someone out there saved them, and frankly I wouldn't know who did nor would care to find out, everything was lost to the void. I’m literally working on what was imprinted in my memory by spite, so I apologize if I misremember details.
This will include discussion of anti-indigenous racism and other issues pertaining to colonialism.
She had an IndoPhil story titled Trust Me? and it was inspired by a fanmade BruPhil AMV wherein Indonesia was manipulating Philippines into believing that he was married to Indonesia and not Brunei. Trust Me? kept that concept of a manipulative Indonesia; the key difference being that Indonesia’s motivation for it (in Desa’s story) was the mix of hurt over Philippines “losing his precolonial memories” — based on popularized misconceptions of early Philippine history — of and how that was “aggravated” by his Westernization™, made worse under the United States (350+ years in the convent getting ratio'd by 50 years in Hollywood is hilarious ngl).
That was a lot to unpack, but before we even get there:
Indonesia and Philippines were having a tender moment when HWS America (as in the Hetalia personification that is Alfred F. Jones) walks in calling out "MY LITTLE BROWN BROTHER!"
Indonesia entered his Joker arc because he recalled how HWS America dumped the Philippines in a human zoo at the 1904 St. Louis World’s Fair. There was an explicit panel of Philippines in Igorot* dress and a painfully forlorn bearing.
What "triggered" Indonesia was when, after the flashback, Piri goes up to Indonesia and asks him if he's a Bolshevist 🥺 (the idea was PH being brainwashed by Red Scare propaganda). Cue kabedon moment from Indonesia, and basically a yandere walk down "memory lane."
I did not have it in me to finish reading that comic...
*Igorot is an outdated umbrella term for the upland indigenous peoples of Northern Luzon
Aside from the clearly intended shock value of that depiction, I was taken aback by the painful lack of objectivity on her part when it came to the reading of history. To be fair on Desa, she never specialized in history studies, so it was only courteous that we could not expect her to have as developed of a critical reading as trained academics of history. Unfortunately, that was precisely why I disagreed with the popular notion of Desa as both a great researcher and a great storyteller of her research — all the more when Maaf was just the mangafication of certain Wikipedia articles.
To be fair as well on Wikipedia, it was, at best, a satisfactory jumpstart into more in-depth reading, and we could give it the benefit of the doubt that revisions had since been made to at least some of the articles that Desa relied on while making Maaf (more than 10 years is more than enough time for change). Nevertheless, the articles themselves did not teach users how to scrutinize the sources — most especially the biases of the sources’ author/s — utilized in building up the information.
That mattered because much of the retrospect narratives about the St. Louis Fair had a tendency of raising awareness through the newspaper articles that covered the exhibition at the time. These chronicled the impressions of the visiting authors, who likely (and I say likely because we would have to more exhaustively discern their personal politics one by one) were biased in favor of the “benevolent assimilation” of the Philippines — and the sights that they beheld only validated it further. They did not, however, explain why these Philippine indigenous peoples were brought in in the first place — information that could have further cemented Desa's reputation had she truly spent the efforts, even while understandably juggling other commitments as we all do. Instead, she only perpetuated the habit of sacrificing the veracity of equally important, finer details to the bigger picture in order to sensationalize righteous fury against colonialism.
The 1904 St. Louis World’s Fair was also formally known as the Louisiana Purchase Exposition, giving away its purpose as a commemoration. More appropriately, it was the centennial anniversary (technically delayed by a year though) of the acquisition of French Louisiana, expanding the territorial bounds of the United States. Additionally, the point of a world’s fair was to showcase the achievements of a nation, and one could also think of it as the sale of a fever dream — what more for a fast-growing, fledgling power the likes of the United States, itself a former colony? On another note, the St. Louis World’s Fair was not the only one of its kind so no, the US is not that original lmao.
One could thus see how the inclusion of a dedicated exhibit to the newly acquired colony that was the Philippines neatly fit into the themes of a world's fair centralized on the US. It was all the more a paramount topic of debate, with prominent Americans the likes of Mark Twain (here are selected excerpts, but I highly recommend reading the entirety of his To the Person Sitting in the Darkness) publishing anti-US imperialism opinions, even after the endgame of the Philippine-American War essentially favored the pro-imperialists. While dissent from the American side at the time remains poorly studied AND THAT'S ON OVERRULE BY BIAS, we at least have a glimpse, if mostly obscure still, of its existence.
If we can assume that it must have indeed been a prominent discourse in America, loud enough to get the White House furrowing its brows, then it's plausible to understand how it was of utmost importance that the the Philippine exhibit was to be carefully — because, in a way, America had to sell itself as the "lesser evil" vs notable "rivals" — curated while still ultimately corroborating assimilation of the Philippines. Thus, enter Truman Hunt, the man who oversaw "the Igorot Village" of the St. Louis Fair, having won the hearts of the native Igorots for a powerful reason:
Section from Claire Prentice, The Lost Tribe of Coney Island: Headhunters, Luna Park, and the Man Who Pulled Off the Spectacle of the Century, New York, NY: Amazon Publishing, 2014.
While the cholera epidemic that occurred at the onset of the American Colonial Period was arguably the worst in the history of cholera epidemic management in the Philippines, I want to make it very, very clear that it was not the first and only wave that hit the archipelago. There had been a handful in the prior century alone — all of such magnitudes that it embedded a deep collective trauma; farmers refused to harvest their crops for fear of infection, tragically enabling famines and contributing starvation & nutrition deficiencies on top of a viral & swift killer (the experience of severe, rapid dehydration is such that one can fall dead within hours of infection).
Given such an imaginably harrowing experience (and it was an awfully painful topic to study as someone who got infected with and survived COVID-19 and has family working as frontliners), how could the natives turn away a stranger with such miraculous powers? Who knows how they comprehended it (e.g. a benevolent sign from heaven they must accept) because, unfortunately, we have yet to discuss preserved accounts on that matter, if any at all.
What is known, however, is that there were Igorots who were not just enamored by the "opportunity of a lifetime," but the selected lucky candidates clearly expressed their consent to participate:
More sections from Prentice, The Lost Tribe of Coney Island.
I will quickly add that, unfortunately, a few members of the Igorot delegation died from illness in making the trip, and Hunt aged like milk over the years (fell into the trap of capitalism in pushing for more subsequent exhibit trips, to the point that less care was extended to the Igorots and he was ultimately arrested for embezzlement). Given that our scope remains to be the 1904 St. Louis Fair, any signs of abuse inflicted upon the Igorots during their stay based on preserved photographs is simply not clear. To assume that they were in a pitiable state would be to enforce a presentist reading that might betray not just their memories & experiences but also their right to self-determination.
EDIT (01/02/24): A good example to demonstrate what I mean in analyzing photographs, here's an article on the author's personal, genealogical research into the Igorots — specifically, the Suyoc — who were at the St. Louis Fair.
It truly is ironic that a Filipino is making these points as if to defend the United States as a whole (no I am not, and if you think I do, lumayas ka). I agree that white people gawking over the peoples of the Philippines with such fascination that borders fetishism warrants all the eye-rolls. At the same time — and it is even more ironic that I am pointing this out as a lowland, Christianized Tagalog based in the metro (not just any urbanized part of the country) — there is a character of patronizing these indigenous communities in the unspoken assumption that their participation is the fault of their ignorance. Pay attention, once more, to the demographics that constituted the Philippine exhibit in the 1904 St. Louis Fair — what kind of "Filipinos" were included and who were left out? There were also Negritos*, Visayans, and Muslims from Mindanao (historically referred to as Moros) in the same event, yet we hardly hear about their experiences. Perhaps it might have to do with how they were considered "more civilized" than these upland groups.
*OUTDATED term (and please blame the Spanish for it); these are the Aeta.
I understand Desa's reservations against US imperialism and sympathies for communities marginalized by Western colonization. I just hope that I was able to clarify as best as I could why I was so taken aback in how she depicted the Hetalia personification of my country the way she did. I agree that, as far as I ever got to interact with her, she is generally very polite and kind. That's why I gave her the benefit of the doubt when she approached me in DM to apologize for how her narrative choice was offensive. As someone who despised red tape in academia, I tried to talk to her about how there were valid reasons as to why the American Colonial Period was considered a mixed blessing, even by PH historians.
Instead, she pulled a complete 180.
She said that — to a Filipino who condemned imperialism (no matter who started it), who also happened to study history as a profession, and was also a Hetalia fan who wants to explore Hetalia narratives differently from what was popularized. Half of the reason was because some fandom takes left a bad taste, like eating a dish with ingredients that even Gordon Ramsay would tell you shouldn’t go together; the other half was because I saw things differently and wanted to express it because why not?
I want to say it's not necessary to bring up something from a private conversation, but I will anyway to reiterate that my issue is not that she isn't nice. Bluntly, however, the way she said those words so formally did creep me out, but ultimately, my issue lies in how her biases have led her into making off-putting takes from time to time. I will not say more, but Trust Me? was not the only Twitter comic by Desa that got bombastic side-eyes.
And if only because Sukarno got dragged in, I felt compelled to briefly debunk that as well: even he initially viewed the United States in a very positive light: “The United States occupies a very distinguished part, a very distinguished place, in the hearts of the Indonesian people.” That was uttered in 1961, and it took a very specific historical context to instigate a complete shift by 1964:
Sections from Vincent Bevins, The Jakarta Method: Washington’s Anticommunist Crusade & the Mass Murder Program that Shaped Our World, New York: PublicAffairs, 2021, 121-123.
EDIT (01/02/24): Note that Desa was citing Sukarno's later sentiments in the late 1960s as her reason for characterizing Indonesia as such in her comic. However, the setting of the story was the late 1920s (Indonesia's visit was based on Tan Malaka's abscondence to the Philippines). I'd dare say the anachronism was not due to oversight but a deliberate choice in using a certain fictional character — namely HWS Indonesia — as propaganda for Desa's anti-Americanism.
It's definitely depressing to think about all the "lost" history & culture that thrived before the arrival of white colonizers. It's why I'm surprised that, for a fiction work, she didn't project all that anger onto Spain instead — it had to specifically be the United States. Was it because they basically cockblocked Philippine independence, even though Spain practically sold the Philippines to the US? The implication that Spain should be permitted to wash its hands clean of all accountability was an awkward message to convey.
I understand that nothing could be 100% accurate (I'm actually quoting Desa defending herself on that matter) in fiction, but the level of projection coming from a certain non-Filipino reading Philippine history was so silly. And again, how did it all justify the explicit depiction of HWS Philippines as an indigenous man in a human zoo? (END OF EDIT)
As my professors will also never tire of saying: you can disagree with a historian’s interpretations but you can never disagree with the evidence in themselves. You don’t have to morally agree either, and I can guarantee you that many Filipinos do not. I, myself, resented the endgame of the particular war that brought that period about in the first place. How dare, then, she said it was “not her place” to defend US imperialism, while granting herself the freedom to express her country’s feelings on the matter?
Oh, it’s all just fiction? I do not condone the subsequent treatment she received, but why then couldn’t she stop trying to “educate” NLID shippers? I do not know how both sides talked to one another, only that what caught me eye was: Why does everyone else have to respect her fiction while she gets to disrespect others’ fictions for not aligning with hers?
EDIT (01/20/24): Just to clarify further on that point — over a decade ago, she went ham in the comment section of someone's (APH) America x (fem!OC) Indonesia. That ship is not in my lore either simply because I follow a totally different route. To cut to the chase, she took that fanart very personally and infodumped on US war crimes that involved Indonesia.
I know Tan Malaka started the whole North Indonesia agenda, but come on, neither was it Desa's place to just treat HWS Philippines the way she did. An Indonesian schooling other Indonesians on ID history is not surprising, but an Indonesian schooling a Filipino on PH history? I'd be humbled if they had the credentials. She didn't and, unless she enrolled herself in a graduate program, she still doesn't.
By all technicalities, she can’t ship IDPH because the Philippine government was (unfortunately and grossly) complicit in the chain of events that led to the 1965-66 genocides in Indonesia. Yet, she does despite of that fact. We thus circle back to Trust Me? and how that was a manifestation of her stubborn refusal to acknowledge any nuances by projecting HWS Indonesia as a self-proclaimed savior of HWS Philippines from the beguile of US neocolonialism.
I empathize with her anger. I'm sorry that the US government by extent enabled what her family went through. I agree that it's not her place to defend them; in fact, she shouldn't. But when even the so-called "highest of Malay nations*" is worth her neutrality, how can she expect me to forgive her?
*That is literally what the Philippines is to her; I know this because she explicitly said so to me in DM. DO NOT ASK FOR RECEIPTS, I am not comfortable revealing that particular conversation.
I cannot — in fact, NO ONE SHOULD — afford to be neutral about Duterte or Marcos, etc., and for her to be so flippant about her privilege (by way of ethnicity/citizenship/cultural upbringing) to be neutral** about Philippine politics, while simultaneously NAGGING ON EVERYBODY TO RESPECT INDONESIAN POLITICS, is annoying at best and plain selfish at worst.
**Also explicitly said to me in DM. Again, DO NOT ASK FOR RECEIPTS.
(END OF EDIT)
I’m not Indonesian but I do not have it in me to politely accuse a native Indonesian of allowing their personal biases to misread their own history. As a Filipino, however, while I'm not surprised by the reductionist chronicling of the histories & cultures of the Philippines, I am at a loss for words over the continuing idolization for Desa & Maaf, when she was not the best and most reliable narrator, especially given her negligence in representing indigenous peoples through her comics.
I mean, guys, I'm not saying this as if the Trust Me? comic was the first and only instance when this was literally Maaf canon that sat comfortably in the internet for over a decade, and continues to be appraised as THE BIBLE OF HISTORICAL HETALIA.
EDIT (01/20/24 — originally added via a reblog): I cannot believe this needs to be said because this is the consequence of when Hetalia fans take their fiction too literally because creators have made careless takes.
There were SEAtalians joking about how the Yolngu are a dead people.
I repeat.
THERE WERE SEATALIANS JOKING ABOUT HOW THE YOLNGU ARE A DEAD PEOPLE.
(END OF EDIT)
So as 2023 comes to a close we enter 2024, I'd like to conclude this post with the following points:
At best, Wikipedia is a satisfactory jumping point, but please believe me when I say no historian will respect you for (over-)relying on Wikipedia. And given that anyone with a decent device & internet signal can access Wikipedia, Desa is just not a GOAT in historical research.
At worst, idolizing Maaf patronizes the work of historians. It doesn't help that PH historians have been targets of harassment because of dis-/misinformation campaigns. I bring this up because it's already bad enough to have to confront that reality outside of fandom spaces on a regular basis in standing our ground for more just historical truths. I hope that folks understand why that's a particularly sensitive struggle for me, and why receiving such comments like the one I shared above deeply hurt. She was not apologetic about that — and every time she would post about apologizing for the moments she has offended others, or when others compliment her for being so open-minded, I cannot help but feel bitter.
Other BIPOC — yes, not just other SEAsians and that's on literally drawing nations other than SEA — have spoken up on the matter. If you can talk about how you learned so much from Desa, you can also learn as much from other perspectives. I hope that in raising all of this, more SEAtalians understand that we risk othering non-SEA BIPOC.
The idolization of Maaf (and the creator in question) is personally far more off-putting than the problematic points of Maaf or any comic she has ever made, because I think she caved to peer pressure instead of learning to wield her fiction more sensitively without being too reliant of the opinions of those she has pleased. Not even Hidekaz Himaruya writes his nationverse characters like that — the one time I’ll admit that canon trumps fanon.
I’m not stopping people from liking Maaf or Desa anyway. I just cannot help but take issue with how the SEAtalia fandom feels less of a safe & inclusive community than it is a cult centered on one person — almost as if her fiction is unquestionable canon and anyone who disagrees gets the boot. Once again, I do not condone the subsequent treatment she received in retaliation, but frankly that's just not what I'm addressing here.
I'm also not saying it's wrong to give words of reassurance and validation to people you admire, only that some of you need to understand you're forcing a parasocial relationship with your idols. It may feel good to you, but please be mindful of the unwarranted pressure it imposes.
I apologize for dumping all of this at literally the end of the year. I want to let it all go in a manner that is clear, concise, and not overwhelming to digest. I do hope that my candid thoughts will push the fandom one step forward in critically consuming media without having to resort to crab-mentality tendencies — because it's been especially hard seeing the demeaning takes made about the Philippines in this fandom.
#hetalia#historical hetalia#hetalia critical#racism cw#hws philippines#aph philippines#hws indonesia#aph indonesia#hws america#aph america#mentions of death cw#sibuyas
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TBH seeing people ask for a ceasefire is nice and all, but I want a fully independent Palestine.
I want the Palestinians to have all of their land back. All of it.
Quoting The Preamble of the 1945 Constitution from Indonesia, a nation which was first recognized by Palestine as an independent state in 1944, a year before the Declaration of Independence on August 17th:
"(...)Whereas Independence is the inalienable right of all nations; therefore, colonialism must be abolished in the world as it is not in conformity with humanity and justice."
That is all for now, may your watermelons taste fresh and sweet.
🍉
Salam Semangka, Penco
#PS: also before you mention israel to me I need you to know that the Indonesian government DOES NOT ACKNOWLEDGE THE FORMER AS A STATE#it is/was/has been and will always be all palestine to us#palestine#free palestine#social justice#indonesia#indonesia untuk palestina#a not so gentle reminder from yours truly: zionists and pro-israel folk will be blocked on sight#anti colonialism#death to colonialism#anti zionism#left wing#from the river to the sea palestine will be free#salam semangka dari sungai ke samudra#dari sungai sampai samudra palestina pasti merdeka#penco rambles#yupyupyup
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the dutch and their descendants (esp afrikaners) are the most underrated colonizer ethnicity, like the ratio of the devastation wrought by dutch and afrikaner imperialism compared to the general reputation (particularly within the scope of western awareness lol) that the dutch have for their colonialism is 100:1
#what the dutch empire did in indonesia was fucking insane#like when ppl think of european imperialism theres usually several countries they think of before the dutch empire is even mentioned
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I remember reading some vaguely left-wing article that criticized the leftist worship of left-wing dictatorships. They used North Korea as an example tankies defend. They pointed out that North Korea has more in common with the Empire of Japan than it does with proper communism, yet the communists still worship it. I found that interesting given Kim Il Sung got his start fighting against the Japanese Empire. So, it's kind of ironic.
#left wing dictatorships#north korea#monarchy#empire of japan#leftist hypocrisy#carrying water for left wing dicatorships#they also mentioned this one maori politician dfending indonesia despite their treatment of the papuan people htey colonized#also ironic given the history of the maori
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why do my dreams keep assigning random ethnicities to famous people
#just woke up from a dream where i was going through a playlist of every mitski song that mentions armenia#and then i looked it up 'is mitski armenian'. and apparently she was#last week i had a dream about an interview with miles kane talking about his life growing up in indonesia and his family and stuff#??????#who will be next...#ramble#oneiro
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Yet another IDNL headcanon bc I was having a Moment today and this one is based off of an actual convo. Anyway this is credited to @aroundthecoffeepot
Indonesia: adik, how do you deal with feelings that sometimes rage up inside you when you randomly remember England?
Malaysia: abang, I literally haven’t thought about that caterpillar eyebrown in a literal decade.
Indonesia: wtf do you mean a decade
Malaysia: wtf do you mean ‘wtf do you mean a decade’
Indonesia: wtf do you mean you lit never think about England
Malaysia: Why should I think about England abang?
Indonesia: wtf
Anw I was Very Surprised to learn that my literal neighbor basically doesn’t care about their former colonial power while 80% of Indonesian Hetalia fans would ship NLIDNL together and 99% have considered or thought about it at least once 😭
#hetalia#hws indonesia#aph netherlands#hws malaysia#my headcanon#not that us indos are head over heels for ned#but its kinda hard to think abt indonesia in the context of republic and colonial struggles and not think of ned#and not just that#at least for me and ppl around me#we ‘blame ned a lot to the point of being possessive over these feelings’#i dont understand either and maybe other indos r less like this but this is my reality and my fams#not even always in the context of colonization and decolonization!!! most indos dont have like. academical thots like that#but in a sense of#we mention ned bc it is simply ‘there’#it has always been there with us#as our unlucky shadow and bad luck#so its both general and sentimental#unfortunately we do revolve our modern ideology kinda around ned#its a given
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Seatalia dtiys !!
template by qis_hws
#senart#hws philippines#hws malaysia#hws indonesia#hws singapore#hws vietnam#hws thailand#Aughhh the quality is so ass sowwyy#Also i realised halfway into making this that i drew them w white pupils bcus of tejennnn's art#idk i just thought i should mention that for some reason
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hi i dont think im finishing this thing 😭 retiring this wip to my blog for yall to see
Kaalaa Baunaa as a Javanese-inspired ronggeng (dancer), it’s also connected to the Medpoc garment idea!
#mochadoodles#reverse 1999#wip that will rot forever#Kaalaa Baunaa#indonesia mention#this was supposed to be for the garment contest#but im too busy bye#YOUR HONOR I EVEN MADE LORE FOR HER…….#OK BUT LOOK AT THE PLANETS I COOKED#THIS COULDA BEEN GREAT#research paper bit me in the head and spun like a croc#200% reality damage#why is this womab so gorjus
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absolutely hysterical japan has the audacity to play the victim after getting nuked, like being instantly vaporized is so much worse a fate than literally raping a city's entire population to death
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youtube
I often heard about that one enslaved muslim man who guarded his enslaver's estate when he was away during American Civil War, but Muslims serving as Union soldiers during the war? Now that's new to me.
#videos#not art#american civil war#american history#interessant#muslims in civil war#this got me thinking of that one sailor (possibly of SEA origin) who ended up serving in the union navy during the war#what if he actually came from indonesia? and a muslim too at that?#he'd join the ranks of the men mentioned in this too#Youtube
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so tural:
has rumah gadang
is a multicultural nation
has many languages spoken by its people, so in order to establish a common language, rather than uplifting one culture above everyone else they synthetized a new language instead
this language is similar but distinct to the foreign common tongue
used to be disparate tribes but united as one nation around 80 years ago
has rumah gadang again i need to mention this bc i pogged so fucking hard seeing those roofs
therefore i posit, tural=indonesia. if dawntrail releases august 17 you'll know i'm right
#ffxiv#6.55 spoilers#this is mostly in jest but i am seriously glad to see things reminiscent of my country in my favorite game#surely there are other cultural influences like south america and other asean countries my indo centrism is a joke lol#but like the mention of creating a common tural language like bahasa indonesia and the nation being 80 yrs old#aug 2024 will be our 79th year of independence haha the coincidences just pile up!
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VILE faculty : now that we know about Chase Devineaux, we know Carmen Sandiego does not work alone!
Zack and Ivy : Um.
VILE faculty : we had no way of knowing she had accomplices. We had never seen anyone.
Zack and Ivy : WOW. OKAY.
#carmen sandiego 2019#csweekly#Tigress saw them in Indonesia. Both Le Chevre and El Topo saw them in Ecuador AND in Australia#did they NEVER mention Carmen's crew to the faculty?? they must have mission debriefs right#the faculty's like 'so THAT'S why carmen keeps one-upping us!' well bro i think your general incompetence is a big factor too
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