#I want to keep my theories to myself.......or do i. not being a fandom person (other than dropping my art and leaving) means i just..

[carulenes]

I have so many scattered thoughts re: Blade, Jingliu, and Dan Heng and the entirety of the HCQ after Clouds Leave No Trace

This is gonna probably be long as hell since I haven’t stopped thinking abt it for two days straight and will contain spoilers for the new HCQ quest in 1.4 as well as references to other leaks, this is mostly just a jumble of a bunch of theories and ramblings to get my thoughts out, some of which I already had and others that started to jump out during the quest. obv other ppl may have come up with similar conclusions and i obv might not be right myself but based on the narrative presented to us up until now, these are what I feel make the most sense. TLDR at the end.

Dan Heng vs “running away”

I find it fascinating, and frankly disingenuous, that that both Jingliu and Blade consistently frame DH’s explanations of no longer being Dan Feng and only containing fragments of his memories as "trying to run from his past". I’ve also seen some in the fandom claim that DH’s position on the matter shouldn’t be trusted as he’s an “unreliable narrator”, which could be true, but it’s a stance I disagree with as it goes against the structure of DH’s narrative as it’s been set up since the beginning of the game.

From day one until the present, Dan Heng is shown to be fully willing to atone for the sins of his past:

The moment he was allowed to move freely aboard the Luofu after having quietly accepted exile for crimes he shouldn’t have had to pay for, he decided of his own volition to seek out the current high elder and make amends with both the Xianzhou and his past in general, even when doing so made him a target for even more suffering:

Narratively speaking, he never once backs away from the punishment considered owed to Dan Feng's actions.

Dan Heng, the result of a forced rebirth process that was then manipulated to leave him with combat prowess and broken memories he neither wanted or should have possessed to begin with, was escorted away from the only homeland he knew, after being held in prison for crimes he legally should not have been judged by from the moment of his birth, with only the few possessions his previous incarnation had possessed, forced to jump from spaceship to spaceship without even recognizing the destination. The only reason he ever ran at all is due to the ages spent fighting for his life against an enemy he didn't recognize and never truly recognized him, one that refused to die no matter how many times they fought. One who caused unmatched destruction in his hunt for Dan Heng, fully willing to destroy anyone and anything in the way of his goal— a shadow of his past:

This is why personally (emphasis on personally) I believe that the longing in question from the leak regarding Dan Heng polishing his spear is in reference to the Luofu, as to me, it makes sense that he would long for and think of the homeland he never got to witness thoroughly with his own eyes and could only experience in books while caring for the weapon he uses to keep himself and others safe from the force of destruction that trails him:

In fact, it isn't until after Dan Heng joins the Astral Express that he begins to fight back against the assertion that he must eternally suffer for the past; this is because this is when he finally has something other than himself to protect. We are directly shown this in his animated short, when the memory of the other members of the Express crew serve as the motivation to spur Dan Heng out of the internal conflict he was drowning in, and also as his prime reason for going to meet with the others in the HCQ aboard the Luofu:

This is likely possible largely due both to the fact that Vidyadhara cannot succumb to mara, as well as the fact that he doesn't have the same specific memories as the others, and so he is not shackled to the same chains that now bind Blade and Jingliu.

———

Blade and Jingliu

In Blade’s youth, Jingliu describes him as someone who was “defiant” in a way she claimed not to like. I find this fascinating given that the two are so incredibly similar at present, which I feel is due in part to Blade’s unwavering respect for her even after the pain she caused him, both because of who she is as the former Sword Champion and the amount of Abundance abominations she alone had been able to slay, as well as the pain she inflicted giving him new purpose, a choice to give him a “second chance” despite at one point having wished to leave him to his misery as a fate worse than death, as described in her character story.

Both Blade and Jingliu experienced great suffering in their childhoods

Blade's swordsmanship ability comes directly from Jingliu’s tutelage

His personal oath comes directly from Jingliu, as she forced it into his psyche over and over through death and rebirth in order to force him to remember:

They both took on deals through which they are able to have access to suppression for their mara:

And both are fighting towards goals that are implied to, at least currently, be impossible (following who I believe to be extremely suspicious individuals):

Also, both are equally stubborn, seen both through their refusal to take no as an answer to Dan Heng's wishes to no longer associate with them and through their refusal to listen to anything that may trigger or directly refute their perceptions of reality:

But most importantly:

Blade and Jingliu both became mara-struck very quickly after Baiheng’s death.

It's repeatedly mentioned that mara is linked to to the artificially stretched lifespans of Xianzhou natives, but also that a fundamental aspect of the affliction is tied to the accumulation of painful memories. Given that vast scope of the destruction that occurred during this bane, and the extreme closeness both Jingliu and Blade had to the deceased and beloved Baiheng (in addition to the trauma of being transmuted into another species entirely, in Blade's case), it's no surprise that both of them are affected so deeply. Additionally, a common treatment for mara is avoiding accessing painful memories or suppressing/removing them entirely.

As Blade himself states that the effects of mara affliction are unique to the individual, I can't make a sweeping judgement of the symptoms all the mara-struck; the specific manifestations of Jingliu and Blade's afflictions, however, can be related to the concept of complicated grief:

We see these symptoms heavily within Jingliu, who literally wears a blindfold to avoid seeing anything that can trigger painful memories, has a voiceline describing how she can't remember many details of the time she and Baiheng spent together, speaks how she's plagued with nightmares about Baiheng, and she refuses to not only prohibit herself from forgetting the pain of what happened to her that day, but also the remaining members of the HCQ.

Similar observations can be made for Blade; he notably speaks very little and withdraws from most social situations, not wanting to take part in “annoying conversations.” His particular form of mara affliction is, by his own admission, unusual and devoid of any real emotion. The few moments of reprieve are spent either thinking too much or not thinking of anything at all. When his mara strikes, though, he shuts down, going completely numb and lashing out at whatever's in his way- not unlike certain displays of trauma responses in real life. He asks directly, “Why does someone like her have to be buried, burned to ash, and eventually forgotten...? Why!?” And given Yingxing being quoted saying directly during this quest that he doesn't wish for an overly long life, and Blade's intense suicidal ideations in the present, it's not a far reach to suggest that he also wishes that he died with her or in her stead.

And both are unable to find purpose in a life without her:

Blade and Jingliu both accuse Dan Heng of being unwilling to accept the past, but both of them are quite literally and physically unable to do so themselves— Dan Heng was even the only one to have spent extended time in the Shackling Prison, even though he should not have had to due to his rebirth, while both Blade and Jingliu were both wanted criminals who managed to escape. They both walk carrying the pain of the past through the present because they feel empty without it. And, unlike Dan Heng, neither one of them have a future that they feel can look forward to.

On that note, Jing Yuan, the only member of the HCQ who is capable of succumbing to mara and yet hasn't, is also the only member to directly acknowledge Dan Heng's autonomy and existence. This extends to Dan Feng as well, as both Blade and Jingliu most often refer to both Dan Heng and Dan Feng interchangeably with the title of Imbibitor Lunae, rather than their names.

The only ones to continue to deny Dan Heng's existence and rebirth are those who are unable to leave the past behind, such as the mirage echoes forever tied to Scalegorge Waterscape, as well as Blade and Jingliu, forever tied to their own suffering.

[Side note: This is exactly why I believe HYV decided to have 1.3 end with an entire questline based around the showing the process of accepting death and healthy grieving: to act as a direct juxtaposition to Blade and Jingliu, who both are unable to engage in the process themselves.] ————

Yingxing and Dan Feng/Blade and Dan Heng

Yingxing the Furnace Master and High Elder Dan Feng were very close. They were good friends, yes, but they were also bad for each other, according to Kafka:

Which would be easy enough on its to write off as her own interpretation of a story she’s heard but doesn’t know enough to understand. But Jingliu, the living member of the HCQ most affected by their actions, shows agreement with her assessment, pointing out that she’d found it strange “to see someone so arrogant get along with someone so proud.”

These specific traits are mentioned and attributed to them multiple times— the arrogant craftsman and the proud high elder. The reason for this is also stated by Kafka: “Together, they did something bad— something terrible. It led to horrific consequences.”

The emphasis that they did it together, almost directly after stating that the pair were bad for one another (which was a conscious choice to have her say, as her statements of their shared mistake and Blade's memory loss would have sufficed on their own), is important not simply because they both made and adhered to the plan; it’s important because it implies that it was directly because it took the two of them specifically to create the chaos and unrest that took place and not anyone else. This isn’t a condemnation of either of them as individuals, but Jingliu herself points out that even the smartest people can make extremely ill-advised decisions in the heat of the moment.

If Yingxing hadn’t arrogantly believed himself alone capable of handling and utilizing the remains of the very Emanator it took a plethora of combatants including the entire HCQ to take down (likely leading to the loss in the usability of his hands as a result):

If Dan Feng hadn’t proudly believed his “salvation” more righteous than the autonomy of those mortals he sought to save, "letting" them continue living as though the right to withhold the honor of dying for a cause they believed in was his alone, while also seeming to blindly believe himself incapable of being deceived or misunderstanding something:

None of the resulting fallout would have happened.

Only one with powers like those of the High Elder of the Vidyadhara could have attempted what Dan Feng did, and only an outworlder who has experienced the allure of immortality and experienced the fear of not having enough time would be willing to assist, given the Xianzhou’s stance on acts regarding immortality.

Furnace Master and High Elder, filled with blind confidence in themselves, blind confidence in each other, enabling each other (Yingxing calling out to Dan Feng and implying that they had to be the ones to make a choice, Dan Feng being moved by his human heart’s words and his own exhaustion with watching the deaths of those around him) to make a dangerous choice at a critical moment when their close companion is in mortal peril (more accurately already dead but they couldn’t accept that), and make the decision to ignore the autonomy of everyone involved. They had no contingency plan because they were sure that, with each other, that it would work. Because of this, they both share the blame, their noble intentions not enough to outweigh their unforgivable sin.

Jing Yuan is noted to have “always understood the price better than any of [the HCQ], yet he never spoke up, never did anything”, but anyone who has had the experience of trying to tell an arrogant or prideful person that they’re wrong or making a mistake knows that that’s an uphill battle on its own. Add in that it would be two against one (one of whom he already canonically bickered with constantly throughout their companionship), asking two of the most stubborn people he knew to give up on their desire to save the beloved (for Yingxing, Baiheng; for Dan Feng, his people), the two that were closer to each other than he was with either of them (not to imply that the HCQ weren’t all very close to each other because they definitely were but in obv differing ways) right in the middle of a high stress situation where there’s no time for arguing, and what remains is Jing Yuan with no options but to watch as disaster unfolded before him and everyone else, knowing that their minds were already made up.

Yingxing never wanted to be immortal or to see Baiheng suffering, but his own hubris helped lead to both.

Dan Feng never wanted to endure the sight of meaningless death, and yet directly caused it due to his pride, believing he had the right to play god and interfere with the natural process of death, or to consider that he may be wrong.

They were good friends who were bad for each other, and good people who made an exceedingly bad decision.

In the present, it’s been over 700 years since the last meeting of the High-Cloud Quintet, meaning Yingxing and Dan Feng have been essentially dead for roughly 7x the length of the HCQ’s entire existence. Their new identities, Blade and Dan Heng are clearly meant to parallel each other, but as opposing forces going in different directions, given Blade’s unwavering desire to die, and Dan Heng’s unwavering desire to live and to protect those he cares for. Both were put through immense suffering that, in the same vein, provided the means of “freedom” for them— Blade, through the sword; Dan Heng, through banishment. And both have found new colleagues to consider allies, though even the two groups are opposed to one another.

At this point in time, they’re enemies in all respects, and the chances of any reconciliation between them in my opinion is VERY slim for multiple reasons not limited to how much time has already passed at this point:

1) Dan Heng does not trust Blade at all and actively considers him one of the biggest threats to both his own and his companions’ safety, with good reason. The only way this could feasibly change is if Blade were to stop hunting him, which likely would not happen because

2) Blade is wholly devoted to Elio’s predictions for him, which Dan Heng’s existence would be paradoxical to. One of Blade’s wishes is to kill Imbibitor Lunae specifically in revenge, and he doesn’t (or can't) accept Dan Heng’s existence; if what Dan Heng claims about his identity is true, then that could only mean the future Elio promised must be false, which would strip him of the only purpose he has left in this world, leaving him as an empty, undying husk. This matter is also complicated by the fact that

3) There is still no cure for the mara that afflicts Blade, which would be the only avenue through which Blade could even begin to consider accepting Dan Heng and potentially reconciling. Both he and Jingliu were able to discover methods of having it suppressed, but both were temporary fixes: Jingliu notes that her time is beginning to run out, and Kafka had to use alternate means to reduce the potency of the mara within Blade after it violently flared up after merely being on the Xianzhou, which is likely the only reason the meeting between the HCQ could even take place with his attendance. On top of this, there’s also the fact that

4) Blade’s feelings for Dan Feng are likely very complex as well. Deep down, there’s clearly still some fondness there in the way Blade looks back on the time spent with Dan Feng, but he’s also one of the people he deeply resents and wants to see dead, which I believe could be due to his belief that it’s Dan Feng’s fault that Baiheng died. There is a choice-dependent voiceline from Baiheng deep within Dan Heng's memories that calls out to him to save them from the starskiff, but we know that it crashed. He tried to invoke the Transmutation Arcaneum, but it failed, instead turning Baiheng into a half-dragon monstrosity whose wails of pain echoed all around them. And then, though he wasn’t the one to deal the final blow, he might as well have by giving the location of the dragon’s weak spot to Jingliu. To top everything off, everything ended with Blade within an immortal body, one that leaves him in constant pain, particularly during the healing process after “death”.

From his perspective, it’s easy to see just why Blade could place the blame of Baiheng’s burial and the near destruction of the Luofu solely on Dan Feng, accusing Dan Feng alone of being the one to stubbornly adhere to the plan; it’s also easy to point out Blade’s hypocrisy given his role as Dan Feng’s accomplice. There are multiple potential reasons for this in my opinion: his brain, afflicted by both mara and prior memory loss (though he never forgets Dan Feng’s eyes or “how cruelty burst out from beneath the mirror-like emerald calmness”); his arrogance, leading him to absolve himself of any guilt or wrongdoing because he believes himself incapable of failing; the current youth-like quality of his mind, reduced to immaturely (by which I purely mean the dictionary definition of having/showing emotional development of someone younger) craving nothing but revenge while simultaneously absolving responsibility by saying “He did it! Not me!”. Also, considering Jingliu’s dialogue to Dan Feng where she says to him “If your death can return everything to how it was, I would do it,” and the many ways Blade already emulates Jingliu, it isn’t too difficult to consider that he may have taken that duty on himself out of grief and longing.

Along with these reasons, the narrative emphasizes that even almost a millennium after Yingxing and Dan Feng’s deaths, destruction follows in their wake whenever their new lives cross paths. Dan Heng learned this quickly, hence his fervent desire to keep distance and his relative uncertainty of anywhere that could possibly be safe for him, though he also learned rather quickly that this was futile. Blade was always able to find him, entire spaceships destroyed in his unshakable desire to kill him. On the Xianzhou, not only was Dan Heng dragged into a fight with Blade, but so too was Yanqing. This cycle of destruction is implied to have been so constant for Dan Heng that it’s likely the entire reason he never feels safe or feels unable to confide in anyone so as to not risk putting them in danger.

----

The Destruction Trio

Imbibitor Lunae, Blade, and Jingliu all being on the path of destruction is no coincidence given their histories. The three “sinners” all shared a key trait: being able to cope with death and painful losses. Both Yingxing and Dan Feng viewed her as arrogant and proud, respectfully, which was another commonality between them. This leads all three of them to not only become the orchestrators of their own self-destruction, but the destruction of those around them as well: Dan Feng witnessing countless deaths and being forced to be reborn as another; Yingxing’s loss of his gift and creative abilities as well as the transformation into the immortal Blade who only sees himself as a weapon; Jingliu’s abandonment of her sacred oath and everyone she killed during her time under the influence of the mara poisoning her mind. Only Dan Heng walks a different path, as he is the only one to have directly stated that he accepts the past that happened but refuses to let it stain his bright future.

The three of them are also intrinsically linked in their pain. Dan Feng and Yingxing's mistake led directly to Jingliu's suffering; Jingliu's treatment of Blade led to his becoming a living weapon and catching the eye of the Stellaron Hunters, and also to him being able to inflict similar suffering to Dan Heng by hunting him constantly. Blade and Jingliu both are of the mind that this is inevitable and inescapable, but only Dan Heng is in a position to be able and willing to question whether he really does have to continue feeling that pain.

While it's still very early on in HSR's lifespan making it difficult to make any real concrete theories, for now I predict that Jingliu will die in her attempt to kill the Abundance, and I also believe her to be aware of this deep down, as she likely sees this as a way for her to atone and find her peace. It also makes most sense for Blade to die at some point as well, considering his parallels to Jingliu, his current character and the fact that while Yingxing used to fear not having enough time in life when he was young, he came to accept his mortality in his elder years after the full life he lived with the HCQ; it could even possibly be in defense of Dan Heng, which could provide a full-circle end to their cycle and their story, a form of closure that no other broken pair has seemed to get so far. Their respective character stories, while directly representing their current struggles, can also be viewed as allusions to their fates as well, with Blade's referring to his death and Dan Heng's highlighting him seeing the dawn of a new day. I also think it could be feasible for the discovery of a method to remove Blade's mara and for him to grow content with the Blade of today, even with powers he doesn't want, similar to Dan Heng accepting that Imbibitor Lunae's powers will always be a part of him; a "miraculous cure" sort of ending could be very clunky if not handled well in my opinion, though.

----

The Reunion

Though it's phrased in a metaphorical way, I feel pretty sure that not only did we just see the reunion alluded to by the PoWC bracer, but also that this is another remnant of Jingliu’s influence that some part of Blade’s subconscious must have clung to:

Note the usage of “should”, a term with many meanings but the most applicable being “expressing a conjecture or hope,” rather than something like “will”, which would indicate future tense or an inevitable event.

Jingliu’s splash art alone shows her pouring out a cup of alcohol

In Jingliu’s character story, Baiheng is said to have brought Jingliu “divine nectar from the other side of the universe”

At the beginning of the companion quest, in the Seat of Divine Foresight, she mentions wanting to have a glass of wine and reminisce with old friends

She is the one to bring the jade flask that Blade handcrafted himself for her when she releases the starskiff in her memory

When the remaining quartet reach Scalegorge Waterscape, she directly mentions that she never believed the 4 of them, with their many grudges and all friendship lost, would gather again and specifically quantifies the hundreds of years that have passed

She does this twice more, mentioning the seven centuries and how they all did this 700 hundred years ago

She is the one to point out that, in the past, they all promised to meet together again for a drink no matter what happened

She says that she believed “those joyful days would flow indefinitely before us” which also fits within the imagery of drinking

There are multiple visual nods to drinking in her flashbacks as well: there’s the quintet having a toast, as well as Jingliu pouring out the alcohol once again while Yingxing sips off to the side, which symbolically is a good representation of the way she poured so much of herself into Blade (whether intentionally or unintentionally) that so much of him resembles her now, down to the bow on the back of his clothes (and even their similar splash arts). There’s also a glimpse of Yingxing and Jing Yuan drinking together. Because both of them were children when they each met Jingliu for the first time, it makes sense that Jingliu and the others were likely the ones to teach the pair to drink once they each came of age.

Jingliu mentions that they will likely never all meet again, and bids farewell to the HCQ.

Finally, at the very end of the quest, she directly says:

Blade mentions alcohol only once, when he says, "The miraculous thing is that in my brief moment of death... all the pain went away... like when we drank to drown our sorrows." In Jingliu's case, we know that she was affected in much the same way as Blade, becoming more confident and boastful under the effects of drinking, mentioning that the nightmares and pain from her childhood memories were no longer so terrifying. For both of them, alcohol is another form of suppression of pain, not unlike substance abuse seen in real life, which grieving individuals are at higher risk of falling victim to.

While it’s possible this wasn’t the reunion that alluded to and they could technically all reunite once more in the future, the sheer number of references to the contents of the backstory mentioned in the bracer lead me to believe that this isn’t the case, as well as Jingliu stating herself that this would likely be their final meeting before she pays her own ultimate price. Not to mention the fact that very specific circumstances had to be in play for Jingliu/Luocha, the Stellaron Hunters, and the Astral Express to all end up on Jing Yuan’s doorstep at the same time. Specificity like that is rarely duplicated, particularly in HSR’s canon, which features many characters with formerly close bonds being separated for whatever reason with no closure to their relationship. The four of them even getting one reunion was a blessing in itself, even though none of them felt particularly happy about it afterwards.

TLDR: Dan Heng is accused of running from his past, but he is the only one of the three "sinners" capable and willing to do so; Jingliu and Blade are heavy parallels of each other and share the same pains of complicated grief; Yingxing and Dan Feng together (and Blade and Dan Heng by association) bring out the worst in each other and represent a cycle of destruction that neither of them are currently able to escape from; the reunion mentioned by the bracer was likely Jingliu's idea that Blade also began to internalize and we likely just watched it occur; Dan Feng, Blade, and Jingliu were all incapable of handling death and loss and this inability is what lead to the three of them causing so much pain and destruction for themselves, each other, and everyone around them.

[agentrouka-blog]

What made you first interested in Jonsa? I really want to love Jonsa. Which may sound strange. But hear me out. I’ve read all the metas and from a metatextual level I really agree with and believe in Jonsa. But I have trouble actually enjoying it and I think maybe it’s because so much content seems to focus on Jon pining over Sansa. I’d much prefer to see things from Sansa’s perspective where she sees the hero in him and sees that maybe all the songs aren’t lies after all as opposed to him “winning her over.” I feel I have been inundated my whole life with stories of outcast men pining over beautiful women they see as out of their league and “winning them over” and I honestly find the trope tiring because it’s so male perspective focused and doesn’t give Sansa the agency of choosing her lover, instead, making her something to be won or earned. If you have any suggestions for Jonsa content that focuses heavily on Sansa’s point of view, on her falling for Jon first (or at least falling for each other at the same time without realizing it) I’d love to hear them! And I’d love to hear what makes Jonsa appeal to you on a personal non-meta level!

Hi there!

I too draw a difference between Jonsa as a theory and shipping it for entertainment.

I've drifted quite a bit away from what you describe as "content", which is fanworks, art and fanfiction. My tastes are very narrow and that puts me outside the target audience for a lot of what is being shared by creators. Plus, I get a great deal more personal enjoyment out of just interpreting the canon text. I enjoy what the couple represents in the narrative more than I necessarily enjoy immersing myself in different non-canonical variants.

And there's a lot of variants. You have two similar but also very different canon-sources (books and tv show) and within those two sources very different takes on the couple. For as many "Jon pines for higborn Sansa" approaches you get an equal amount of "Sansa jealously pines for her brother's oblivious best friend" modern au's. What we enjoy in recreational reading is extremely personal and subjective.

That said, for fear of disappointing you, I don't particular enjoy the "Sansa falls first" scenarios because what I like about the couple especially is the idea of Sansa finally being appreciated for who she is. Canon offers us plenty of examples of Sansa extending affection and crushes on other characters. They are never truly reciprocated, and they join in on a theme of Sansa going unappreciated for her qualities by the world around her. She is disregarded, mocked, criticized, belittled, humiliated. So much so that a large part of the fandom considers this to be justified and educational for her. She has given up on being loved for herself, but she will not sacrifice her values as a consequence. So someone falling in love with her is to me a very compelling and cathartic validation of Sansa as a person. Of course, this only works if the person falling for Sansa is actually attractive to her and embodies the things we know she has been looking for all this time. But specifically the idea that Sansa falls first fails my personal taste because it contains a sense of lacking reciprocation that we've already seen multiple times in her story. She's been not-loved-in-return a lot already.

I do enjoy the concept of Jon being loved by Sansa, too, because it validated aspects of him he usually keeps close to his chest. Things that touch on his specific mixed sense of identity as a nobly-raised bastard. He has soft sensibilities, a romantic disposition, pedestrian dreams of family and home, and highly idealistic and emotional ideals surrounding leadership that center on duty and honor. But he is generally not appreciated for those specific things. He is appreciated for his brains and his abilities, his bravery, his pragmatism, his loyalty to his friends and duties - but not for the boy who wants to be Lord of Winterfell with a lady wife and babies, who wants to be a hero from the songs, Florian the Fool, Ryam Redwyne. It's a lovely and very specific recognition of a very private part of Jon, to be loved for his secret soft self.

But it's not my primary focus because unlike Sansa, Jon still receives a lot of validation and love in the source material. It's just not the specific kind he wants. So that makes it comparatively less compelling to me.

That doesn't mean that Sansa primarily falling in love with Jon isn't an equally valid thing to enjoy! It's just that I can't make you any good recommendations on this subject specifically because it's not my specific favorite flavor of jonsa.

I wish you good luck though!

[immortalthunderstorm]

The Alicent-Larys Conondrum

I'm back with some thoughts™️ on the HOTD fandom's hot topics. This time - something I've seen discussed quite a lot and what seems to be a controversial topic - the dynamic between Larys and Alicent, and mostly how a lot of the blame gets shifted onto her. There's a general tendency of overt victim blaming when it comes to Alicent herself, and often situations in which she is subjected to trauma get twisted into her own shortcomings rather than those of her perpetrators. The marriage to Viserys is one example, but the same arguments are used for her scenes with Larys.

I thought I'd try and analyse it a bit more from Alicent's perspective, though I don't disagree that the show has left this incredibly dubious at times and I really think that e.g. the foot scene was unnecessary.

Obviously Matthew Needham already provided a pretty great take on Larys as a character and his perspective on the dynamic, so I won't get into that myself here, but recommend having a listen to what he has to say.

1. Alicent should have dismissed or reported Larys after she learned of his Harrenhal stunt

I actually think it makes perfect sense that Alicent doesn't dismiss Larys despite being horrified by his actions.

The earlier episodes of the season make a point of how Alicent is isolated and lonely in the Red Keep. She says herself, she has no friends, no real allies, her former companion lied to and 'betrayed' her, got her father fired and therefore left her without her last constant family member by her side. She is heavily traumatised, forced into a marriage she doesn't want, forced to birth child after child and mostly ignored or dismissed by her ailing husband. She is queen in all but name, her job is to look appropriate, make sure the courtiers are entertained, and most of all give the king children.

Before even Criston joins her, the only person who approaches her is Larys. He seems empathetic, talks to her openly (or so she thinks), pretends to care about her as a person. This is where she is probably most vulnerable, most alone. Of course she falls for it, I don't think anyone can realistically blame her for that, she's a lonely teen forced to be a mother in what is essentially a toxic environment. Plus it is Larys who tells her of Rhaenyra's 'betrayal', which turns out to be true, so in a way he 'proves' his loyalty to her by disproving Rhaenyra's.

Later on he is the one who supports her when she vents about Rhaenyra and her bastards, they have dinners together, an honest friend and sympathetic ear in a metaphorical snakepit. And then, he goes as far as killing his own family, something that Alicent is horrified by, but it shows just how far his capabilities stretch. He has a spy network, he can get her information no one else can, information that can give her shreds of power and influence. He can make things happen without anyone ever suspecting that he, and by implication her, was involved. Larys makes himself invaluable to her and is not easily replaced.

I do disagree that she has some great power over him as a lot of people like to claim. Larys would not confide in her if that would bring him in any great danger. Realistically, accusing him would be such a wild theory, plus the absolute no go of double kinslaying, plus he's a very high ranking Lord, I'm not actually sure people would believe her - she doesn't have proof either. Viserys has absolutely not had her back ever, he has the spine of a wet slice of bread, I doubt that he'd simply put him on trial and kill him (each High Lord is an asset to the crown and if he starts "randomly" beheading people that could cause problems, like Ned Stark, like Rickard Karstark (let's put Vaemond aside here because there should have been consequences)) because Alicent said so? All that on top of Viserys' general strategy of ignoring everything that could be a "political headache" to him, my confidence in him is quite low.

And again, why would Alicent rat Larys out? He benefits her and is her main ally at court. She is shocked at how far he went, but in the end it did get rid of both Harwin and Lyonel, which caused Rhaenyra to leave and Otto to resume his position as Hand. Alicent did not condone the murders and would not have sanctioned them had he asked - but to her he is loyal beyond doubt and most importantly only to her (in her head) - later when he offers to give her Lucerys' eye she openly refuses, BUT she acknowledges how far he is willing to go for her. She'd be stupid to rat him out that would only disadvantage her.

2. The Foot Scene

Now in episode 9, Alicent is in a highly stressful situation. Aegon is to be crowned after she spent the entire day fretting he was missing or dead in a ditch somewhere, she had to fight her father and essentially most of the council not to send assassins after Rhaenyra, she had to find Aegon first to be the voice of reason to him, she is clearly distraught over Viserys death and scared for her children.

This is not the time and place for mistakes, every move has to count and nothing can slip through the cracks. Larys knows this, and he knows that he and his spies are going to be very important in the coup to come, and he knows he is the only one who can provide this. So does Alicent. She may be queen, but in actuality she wields very little power in this instance. The green council scene showed that they plotted behind her back, her father most of all, and clearly don't take her very seriously.

Essentially in episode 9, she's trying to outrace Otto and establish herself as more than a pawn. In a time where war is all but inevitable and she has enemies both outside and within the Red Keep's walls, and her children's lives are at stake - how could she refuse Larys who can provide her with valuable intelligence? By giving in to his "demands" she learns that her handmaiden is a spy which is a very important revelation.

It's hard to try and make sense of how their power dynamic switched to such extremes, we don't know whether it's happened before, in which capacity and for what. Clearly she is aware of what he wants, but how did that come up? How did this develop? We can't know so I refrain from making assumptions for any other times.

Her symbolically selling her body again for all this is a price she is willing to pay, but it doesn't make it any less of a SA (and yes, I've seen a lot of people dismissing this as consensual since she willingly took off her shoes for this. It's giving 'she asked for it'). Alicent is deeply disgusted, she can't look at him, she probably already has a very twisted view on herself and her body as something that belongs to others and he abuses that. But she indulges him because she realistically doesn't really have any other choice. He has made himself irreplaceable.

This doesn't mean it's consensual. Consent would mean that Alicent did this because she wants to, finds some enjoyment in it, and hasn't been pressured into it. But that's far from the truth. She does it because she feels like there's no other way for her to get this valuable intelligence, so she endures it despite clearly being uncomfortable and disgusted. I am so tired of everything being blamed on her just because people don't like or understand her character.

[oathkeeper-of-tarth]

@buckysleftarm replied to your post:

After reading this, I happened across this video: https://youtube.com/shorts/-X5l5GFeg1k?si=H2lrsmx0pv60wn1h They're not in our camp anymore and I wouldn't know how to view the non companions anyway on PS5, but it feels like she definitely is taking some time off from Selune without breaking her oath full?

I sure did use this reply as an excuse to mash out a giant post! Hope you don't mind.

I do actually love that you've brought this up, because I keep seeing variants of it around and have been wanting to comment on it, if for nothing else than to make me feel better. The gist of it goes something like this: after killing Lorroakan, Aylin's "Child of the Moonmaiden" ability no longer shows up when you examine her character sheet, meaning her immortality has been taken away, she is being punished by her mother, has broken her paladin oath, or is feuding with her in some other way. Now... people in the comments of that video sure have takes on Selûne and on Aylin and on paladin oaths and aasimar abilities in general that make giant question marks spawn above my head. 

Personally? I dislike it immensely and think it makes zero sense for a variety of reasons, both in-universe and out! To be fair, as with most headcanons and theories, I'd genuinely love to see someone get creative and do something interesting with it. But I have this knee-jerk reaction to it because so far I've only seen it in the context of people parroting it completely uncritically, just regurgitating it on endless reddit or forum or discord threads and what have you, and actually shutting down or completely derailing Aylin-related discussion. Which frustrates me, obviously, because I want cool, detailed, thought-out takes on my fave, always, and - to be really petty for a moment - since my fave isn't the fandom darling, I only get crumbs to start with! It grinds my gears because so very often I'll want to read this potentially interesting thread about a character I love, but nope, instead here's a dozen comments how "nah man she broke her oath and there's special oathbreaker paladin dialogue with her about it" - no there isn't. That's a very easily verifiable fact, my guy. You made that up, my dude. How dare you just go and make things up on the internet. 

A ton of BG3 discussion has been flooded with a weird wave of statements that are just put there as well-known fact but in reality read like "I heard from a friend whose uncle works at the Nintendo Larian department and he told him Halsin went on a special mission and killed Isobel a century ago because he wanted to emotionally compromise Ketheric but then playtesters reacted badly to it and Wizards made them take it out but it's still hinted in the game, and also if you use an Elixir of Hill Giant Strength and do an unarmed attack on the cart at the entrance of the Emerald Grove you can get Mew" and I find it so grating. And then people waste time debunking this and arguing in the same circles and nobody ever moves on to more interesting stuff. I say this, as if I haven't been an active participant of internet fandom for decades and have literally anyone but myself to blame here, hah.

For instance, the way you phrased it here, as Aylin herself taking a break or trying to step away instead of the "being abandoned and punished by her mother" angle from the video and the comments? That's something I think has potential and something I want to rotate in my mind - would she do it? Could she do it? What would this entail and what would it mean for her? What would actually be enough to prompt her to even try? And it's cool that a little gameplay mechanic thingy prompted that! However - and I'm keeping it kinda vague because I don't want to spoil you on things that happen after the point you seem to be at - if we're talking purely established canon things and not brainstorming an AU or a post-game trajectory for this character, there is nothing actually in the game to indicate Aylin is taking a break from Selûne or her duties, especially not to the extent of having any of her abilities suspended. Quite the contrary, in fact. Everything we get from her and Isobel after the Lorroakan situation is handled shows she is, for better or worse, very much resolved to be her old self and very righteously angry and smiting evil in her mother's name as the Sword of Selûne and actively engaged in protecting Selûnites Realms-wide, and she has her full set of powers and blessings while doing so.

In this essay I will In the rest of this post I will try to be less cranky and I'm going to get a bit technical to try to actually explain what is going on with the "Child of the Moonmaiden" ability.

TL;DR: the buff is disabled as soon as Aylin enters the wizard tower, before any fight or backbreaking or feelings of loss and sadness, likely for the purpose of you being able to win or lose the fight no matter if you side with Aylin or betray her. It is a purely mechanical contrivance and has no narrative meaning, nor is its presence or absence mentioned or reflected in the narrative at all.

Here's Aylin in camp just before being told about the wizard:

Here she is at the start of the fight, when she is sided with:

And here she is, when you side against her:

The above is an oversimplification, however, because the actual implementation of Aylin's immortality is a bit of a mess.

There are two implementations of her resurrection active in the game, and both are implemented as a Status: "GLO_NIGHTSONGRESURRECTION" and "GLO_NIGHTSONG_RESURRECTION". Now, I don't know what was going on there and I'm certainly not a Larian dev, but that underscore situation there is... weird. I also don't know enough about BG3-specific scripting yet to come up with an explanation on why there would be two variants of it at all - if anyone does, please let me know! I'm very curious. However, these two implementations of her resurrection ability work very differently, and you can see the effects of both of them in-game. 

The first one, GLO_NIGHTSONGRESURRECTION, is named "Moonmaiden's Reconstitution" and is tied to the "Child of the Moonmaiden" Passive (itself called SHA_NightsongResurrection, side note: GLO is the "global" prefix and SHA is a prefix that signifies the Gauntlet of Shar area in Act 2). This ability makes Aylin auto-stabilise when downed instead of rolling death saves, go into the kneeling stabilised animation where she can be helped up or healed just like your party members - you know the one, with the little asterisk hovering above them. Then on the start of her next turn she heals for exactly 1HP (unless she's under a healing-disabling effect, such as Bone Chill, which is why people have trouble with her in the Myrkul fight) and she has only her Bonus Action, the same as any other previously downed character.

Mechanically, it applies the "GLO_NIGHTSONGRESURRECTION_DOWNED" Status to her which modifies what happens when she is Downed to implement the above non-standard behaviour, and also does stuff like turn off her Moonbeam if she had it active.

The "Moonmaiden's Reconstitution" Status itself is completely invisible in-game: it has properties such as "DisableOverhead;DisableCombatlog;DisablePortraitIndicator" aka doesn't show up as that little text popup above the character, doesn't show up in the combat log, and doesn't have a visible indicator icon anywhere.

The description for "Child of the Moonmaiden" is:

"Blessed with the favour of a goddess, Nightsong cannot be permanently killed. When unconscious, [at] the start of her turn she recovers 1 hit point."

The second one, GLO_NIGHTSONG_RESURRECTION with the extra underscore, is a Status called "Nightsong Soars Eternal", and that one doesn't have any other Statuses or Passives tied to it, it simply resurrects her immediately when she dies, and at full health. When it triggers, you can actually see her portrait drop out of the initiative tracker at the top of the screen as if she completely died, and then she gets put in again. This one is active even when the first one isn't, so you can see it in places like camp after she comes back from Lorroakan, and after she comes back for the finale all the way until the end of the game - and by "see it" I mean since it doesn't have any Passive ability connected to it, you have to actually get Aylin killed to see it trigger (I'm so sorry Aylin, it was important for the post, I swear).

The description for "Nightsong Soars Eternal" is:

"Nightsong will be resurrected by the powers of Selûne whenever she dies."

In Lorroakan's tower, BOTH of these are disabled, and if downed, Aylin will just lie there as if she died for real with the little red skull and the "Dead" status until she gets rezzed for a cutscene after the fight or, if betrayed, you go to long rest and then come back to see Lorroakan's progress, at which point she will be up and in the cage with a total of 1HP and that "Soul Caged" status instead. 

Note again that she visibly has "Child of the Moonmaiden" disabled as soon as she enters the wizard tower area, betrayed or not, before she does anything to anyone. It's a way of making sure the Lorroakan fight is actually winnable/loseable/concludable without her getting stuck in that revive with 1HP at the start of her turn loop. "Nightsong Soars Eternal" also obviously doesn't trigger. Instead she says her "I will rise again!" line and stays down. She has every other ability and buff active normally, even ones that explicitly mention coming from Selûne, like her iconic following Moonbeam, for example, or her fancy unique Smite.

Again, significantly: she does not have her immortality buffs if you fight against her, either, betraying her and causing Selûne's wrath and desire to protect her daughter to manifest physically in the room, including empowering Aylin herself with buffs that are called things like "Moonmother's Embrace". See what I'm getting at?

Interestingly, she also doesn't have it when you first meet her:

What does this all mean? Well, I'd say that if we took every gameplay/implementation thing about this game as in-universe gospel, Aylin herself would look a lot different and be far more scaly, for one.

(Makes me chuckle every time.)

In all seriousness, though, if something as big as this happened to a side but still fairly prominent character, the game would tell us about it. Or at least make a bigger deal of it than the deactivation of a passive ability visible on the Examine screen that many people sadly don't really tend to look at and read.

And here's the best thing: nobody has to take my word for any of this, you can see for yourself, without actually knowing how to unpack game files or having my frankly ridiculous amount of hard saves! I think this is super helpful in general, especially for people playing on console:

Here's a link to a truly amazing and consistently updated resource - every bit of dialogue in the game, nicely parsed and laid out and super readable (as well as some additional tools to play around with). 

Here's a website where you can search inside BG3 scripts and other files and take a look at a lot of the nitty-gritty implementation stuff in a convenient way.

I recognise that I go way too deep into things and overstuff my brain with minutiae, but that's just how I work. I take forever to post anything anywhere on the internet because I just physically cannot click a post button without triple-checking everything and quoting and screenshotting things, even if it's the same thing for the twentieth time, and that's certainly a me problem. I very much don't expect people to do things my way, but I also find the games of telephone these things so rapidly become really frustrating, you know?

But my biggest problem with this particular Aylin thing - beyond the annoying preponderance of it, as I've already whined - is that in-universe it just makes no sense and I, an aasimar paladin enjoyer, personally dislike it.

Oath of Vengeance paladins abide by the following tenets: Fight the Greater Evil. Exerting your wisdom, identify the higher morality in any given instance, and fight for it. No Mercy for the Wicked. Chasten those who dole out their villainy by wiping their blight from the world forever.

Putting the rest of this post under a cut because it's long and ranty and you didn't actually ask for it.

My first problem: the common argument that Aylin is in the wrong for killing Lorroakan like she did because he has "done nothing to her yet", and that she breaks her Oath of Vengeance because she attacked him preemptively.

The man put a price on her head and sent violent mercs to beat her up and kidnap her. He tries to (temporarily) kill her and imprison her as soon as she refuses to cooperate by… demurely waltzing into the prison and putting the chains on herself? He knows exactly who she is, what has been done to her, and he wants to do it again - no, doesn't want to, he is actively doing it again. The fact that (if you side with Aylin) he fails mid-attempt doesn't make him innocent of it. He refuses to stop and, if denied, gets violent and murderous. 

Player: Have it your way. I'll bring her here. Lorroakan: Good. I was growing scared for you. The last person who disappointed me is suffering for it still. Do not return without my prize. Do you hear me? Good day.

Player: I'll think about it. Lorroakan: You aren't the only one who knows what's on offer for the Nightsong's retrieval. Consider carefully whether you'd like to see your fortune in someone else's hands. Someone who might slip into your camp at any moment, or harry you through street and inn until you're run ragged and surrender. The choice is yours: fortune or imminent death. I know you'll choose wisely.

Mark my words: the Nightsong is mine. With or without your help, she will ascend to her grand fate here, in this tower.

Player: You heard me. The answer is no. Lorroakan: Pity. Then again, perhaps word of your agonising death will draw your little friend to me. Myrmidons - imperatum!

He is fully equipped for it and has set up a whole magical trap and is just waiting for her to show up to trigger it, or for someone to drag her there against her will. He says she will go into the cage "kicking and screaming" and really, this is who she is wrong for "picking a fight with" and "attacking preemptively"? Surely nobody actually thinks that Aylin is at fault here or that she actually overreacted by killing him? I don't really want to go into some people's really, really shitty attitudes towards Aylin for sadly entirely predictable reasons but… man. She went over there and threatened him with violence, demanding an explanation after he sent cronies to attack her in her sleep? Wow, what a weird thing to do. Also, he literally is the one to attack first! She is there threatening and goading him, doing her little "face me charlatan" bit, but he is the one who sics the myrmidons on her (or the player) and actually starts the fight, every time. To be clear, I don't think this is very relevant at all, but people do seem to love bringing it up.

Is Aylin brash and reckless and clearly struggling after her captivity, dealing with rapidly flaring up anger and outbursts of violence - only ever, may I emphasise, towards actually horrid people, and she is really rather shockingly forgiving and tolerant of the player character messing with her? Yes! Does she seem to have that classical aspect of "she might go too far one day" or "she might lose herself in the anger and vengeance if she focuses on it exclusively"? Absolutely! Do I think she could have been, say, a Devotion paladin before her imprisonment and it might have been the betrayal and century in the Shadowfell that made her change to Vengeance instead? I love that idea! I also think it's likely she has just always been a very zealous, very smitey and offence-oriented Vengeance paladin, called Selûne's sword for a very good reason, fulfilling a very important role in the ongoing struggle against Shar.

And the whole problem is… Lorroakan will, as we've seen, not stop trying, and people like him will always be around and never stop coming after her especially now that the cat's apparently out of the bag after Balthazar, and Aylin needs to live with this, forever. That is why she is so messed up about this one rando wizard she's never met before. That is why this specific incident is so triggering for her. She has just escaped torment on a timescale that's not something the normal human mind can really grasp. "In this moment, I want for nothing." ended up lasting, indeed, barely a moment! Her mum is a powerful god and right now it seems that what Aylin actually gets from it is having a target painted on her back and, to quote Isobel, she can be hurt just like anyone else, she just gets to suffer longer! She keeps being dealt these shit hands and, yeah, it'd make anyone go… why? Seems unfair, right? What exactly is the point of this? 

The various dialogue options you have while warning her about Lorroakan's intentions and which include trying to convince her to just leave him be include her being so, so frustrated, and so understandably, it makes me feel horrible for her. 

She always ultimately goes to confront him, because she has no other real choice. He will keep coming after her, he will keep sending people after her, and she will never, ever get a bit of rest, and she's, what, supposed to go live in hiding somewhere if you convince him she's dead? Until the jig is inevitably up or this guy dies by someone else's hand? And there's also the element Aylin herself will point out if you keep her in the dark about the plot and Aradin and his cronies come to attack your camp: how long until someone hurts Isobel during one of these attempts or actively goes after her as a bargaining chip?

I guess I just genuinely do not understand the arguments about this guy who has been deliberately constructed to be a horrible, hateful piece of shit with exactly zero redeeming qualities, to an almost comical extent. He beats his apprentice and uses his assistant for target practice! He's a sick, sick asshole! His life's dream rests on kidnapping and enslavement! The guy is conspiring and trying to ally with Ketheric and Balthazar of all people: 

Lorroakan,

I have responded out of respect to my counsellor, Balthazar, who advises me that you may prove a loyal ally in the coming fight. I understand you wish to know about the soul cage which binds the Nightsong to me. Details, I cannot and will not provide. But the magic itself is necromantic in nature, designed by my aforementioned counsellor. I hope your curiosity is satisfied.

General Ketheric Thorm

This is who people think a vengeance pally will break her oath over? Over what, a technicality of who struck first? "Desecrating a corpse"? No, it was Ketheric she did that to, and nothing happened. She just finished this guy off in a violent and dramatic fashion. 

While you can play a paladin yourself and kill so many people in so many ways without anything happening, this is more of a consideration if you play Oath of Devotion or Ancients. It's also one that makes parts of the game harder - comically evil cultists torturing and executing prisoners cannot simply be attacked out of nowhere, and instead you need to announce your challenge first. You need to walk up to them and start talking, establish their villainy, and then fight "fairly". This is also partially an issue arising from the implementation of hostility flags and game logic, by the way. However, Oath of Vengeance gives precious few fucks about this and is a really hard oath to break. In fact, in a very similar situation to the wizard tower, in the House of Grief, you break the Oath of Vengeance if you spare Viconia - at that point lying on the floor soundly defeated and bleeding out much the same way Lorroakan was. Viconia who, may I note, never "did anything to you" but did harm a friend of yours.

Also, and this is a whole separate discussion, but... it's a FR DnD game. You kill bad guys in it. You kill vaguely morally grey, or even good guys in it. You and your friends kill so many people before this point. Multi-act quest arcs conclude with "go to place and kill someone". You mete out "justice" personally, repeatedly, and can harp on that fact, especially if you're playing a paladin. You don't exactly call the guards on people instead, even in the middle of the city. Ludo-narrative dissonance or no, why would this one wizard suddenly be different, and why would this one woman be singled out for a thus far completely typical approach and set of actions? 

My second problem: a great big "Selûne wouldn't do that". I understand Forgotten Realms "lore" is a giant unwieldy self-contradicting mess of a beast and I'm not saying people should be scholars of it to participate in the discussion, far from it, but I would like them to engage with what is presented in the game itself at least.

For the most succinct possible example, look at what Selûne does when Aylin is betrayed. She buffs her in order to enable her to violently and zealously win that fight. Literally empowers Aylin to smack her enemies around more and with greater strength and also burn them alive in holy fire. Not after she's imprisoned and well and truly "wronged", but during this fabulously absolving "mere attempt" on Lorroakan's part.

Also, may I point out the sweet little shielding- and healing-focused cleric of the same goddess is actively disappointed that you and Aylin won't let her come with to hit the guy a few times herself! This goes for the entire party of assorted weirdos, goody-good or otherwise, who firmly believe Aylin should just obliterate that guy. Like, c'mon, my man Wyll! (Super sad and touching exception: Karlach, if you've killed Gortash already. When she begs you not to tell Aylin about any of it at all and go deal with the wizard yourselves, just so Aylin can have a bit more peace and keep her sword sheathed for just a little while longer. Ow, my heart.)

In summary, basically, my twofold beef:

"Selûne punishing and abandoning her daughter for over-zealously defending herself" - nonsensical and uninteresting. Stops people from actually delving into and discussing the complexities of that relationship.

"OoV paladin broke her oath by killing an evil wizard who is actively trying to do horrible things to her and attacks her" - nonsensical and uninteresting. Let's instead actually engage with the material and discuss Aylin's trauma and how she might deal or not deal with it in good or bad ways. What would recovery even look like, for her. How does the way she intrinsically ties her entire being into being a smite-happy moon-magic knight play into it. Let's actually consider the weight and role of duty in her life and the wombo-combo of being an aasimar paladin, an existence with a very "purpose-made" aspect to it. You know, the good ol' Being A Sword thing, including being born into it. Combined with being rather suddenly rather intensely humanised by a loving relationship with a mortal woman, with all sorts of ticking clocks, unique challenges, and both past and pending tragedy there.

Or let's talk about the dissonance present in Aylin's cool and badass scenes of smiting deserving evil. Scenes that go into very violent and very over the top territory, that make you both cheer and cringe, that make a point of showing the other characters reacting in shock. Because I genuinely feel so bad for her and deeply worried for her, all while my silly little brain goes fuck yeah smite him shiny lady! Ooooh look, a flashy Aylin scene, ripping a deserving villain to pieces! But at what cost to herself? Feels so good to have someone deliver some justice! But if I think about it for 5 seconds I don't actually want her to - no, no, I do. I don't want her to have to, is the thing. (It's kind of like that one Gundam meme.)

I will conclude this mess by doing a salty little yeah. It's fine, this is fine, this is sadly pretty much part of the standard experience of liking a female character in fandom. God forbid women do anything indeed. Outside of a few select, narrow and highly dedicated circles, half the (scarce) posts about her are something that's either flat-out wrong, or just assumes the absolute worst of her and reduces her to two and a half shitty stereotypes, and half the fics tagged with her are actually about fandom's favourite two dudes and barely feature her at all.

And on that note, I'm off to actually be a positive force and poke at my own fic some more.

[tonydaddingham]

it's all well and good to have discourse regarding generalised theories and meta and such like, it's cool to discuss and (politely) debate stuff; maybe you can change other fans' minds by sharing your perspective/analysis, or maybe they can change yours.

what's not cool though? screenshotting actual posts (that can easily be found on a straightforward google boolean search, or hell - usually just by typing the contents into tumblr itself) of takes you don't agree with and subjecting them to focused ridicule. those are someone's thoughts and feelings. that is someone's time, their effort, and their dedication.

what's not cool is vagueing about people's posts in such a way that it is obvious that your post is about them, about that particular post, and not just the theory/theme in general. this fandom is huge but it's also incredibly small sometimes - we're all so often of the same mind that art and fic and meta pass through us like shockwaves. what im saying is that the person that that post is about? they'll probably see it. don't be bullies. a good portion of us have had enough of bullies to last us a lifetime, and it's not needed here.

reblog a post and disagree courteously, patiently, and with compassion, or make a separate post "ive seen discussion on this theme/thought, and whilst it was interesting, i personally don't agree and here's why...". send a polite ask to the op perhaps asking them to clarify some things, because you don't agree but at least want to understand and discuss, if they'd be amenable.

if the bad takes are becoming too much, or are upsetting you, or the person is doubling down despite polite debate and it's pissing you off? that's absolutely valid and you're allowed to feel like that - and if you don't want, or can't, address it politely, and it's too much... block them. block them so you don't have to keep seeing it. rant about it in the DMs to someone you trust if you really need to, but don't publicly make people - on what is (to my mind) the mostly inclusive and open-minded platform - feel like shit because they see media different than you.

don't make people feel like they're absolute scum just because you disagree. don't make them feel stupid, or close-minded. dont stick labels on them that they will likely internalise and make them feel like the worst human being to walk the earth. it's humiliating, it's alienating, and it's going make some people fear having any interest in something they used to enjoy, and that once brought them joy when they needed it most. you personally may not be bothered, but others might - have some respect for them.

god knows im not perfect and ive done it myself, im not pretending otherwise bc sometimes i catch myself being unkind, or feeding into this culture of "different thought = wrong thought", but by god im trying to do better. don't be like me, please please please just be fucking kind

[starlightseraph]

love to the brave antis!

i’m being so serious rn when i say that if you’re part of the rpf circle (and that specific one) then please get the fuck away from me and my asks and my posts.

i spent a while hate-reading and rubbernecking, but i was strong enough to block all the major players and i’ve almost entirely kept them blocked. if my inbox last time i mentioned this was anything to go by, clearly some of y’all couldn’t do the same to me.

if you’re in the good omens/staged fandom or a fan of david tennant and michael sheen and somehow aren’t aware, there are a bunch of disgusting blogs that have been spewing hatred and conspiracy theories, for years in some cases. these include but are not limited to: that georgia tennant and anna lundberg baby trapped the guys (with like every kid they’ve had, because david and michael have clearly been on the edge of leaving them so many times), that georgia is repeatedly raping david (???), that she’s abusing him and he’s afraid of her, that david and georgia’s kids hate georgia because they recognise the abuse and are disgusted by it, that anna is some maniacal villain who always planned to trap an established actor because she can’t do anything, that she hates michael, that david and michael are in a sexual and romantic relationship, that they they want to leave their partners for each other, that they already have left their partners in secret, that david and georgia have gotten divorced and are living apart, that georgia’s dad set up her and david on purpose (outside of his influence in getting her the role that they met on), that georgia and anna send coded messages to each other and to followers with the songs they use on instagram stories, that georgia was a criminal-level stalker who baby-reindeer’d david into marrying her, that the four of them have a pr firm that’s orchestrating every flick of their eyes but that this firm is failing miserably by telling them to turn down the heat between david and michael while forcing them to drag georgia and anna along wihh them, and that anyone who doesn’t agree with these rpf blogs is homophobic and wilfully ignorant.

they send death threats to and dox people who dare to say anything against them, i’ve gotten threats myself. @dtmsrpfcringe has gotten wishes of ill on her children and she’s been told that her family doesn’t exist and she’s making them up or is delusional. i myself got death threats and a bunch of abuse on anon for my relatively tame posts on this shit. i was fairly early to the game, i think my first post on the situation was 10ish months ago, and they have radicalised more and more since then. i’m not up to date on their latest insanity— i’ve had them blocked for a long while for my own mental health— but i’m not gonna let the brave people behind the aforementioned blog and others get absolutely vile messages without saying anything.

now i wanna make myself very clear: rpf is fine! real person fiction is fine! i personally don’t like it, but i have no ethical objections as to why others shouldn’t. using the names and likenesses of real people for fun and silly little stories on ao3 is totally ok. but it crosses a line when y’all present the stories as an “investigation” or claim that they’re objective reality. some of the followers of these blogs have admitted to messaging georgia and anna directly about this, and there have also been a few comments on their instagrams that seem fuelled by this stuff, proving that their claims of staying quietly on their own corner of the internet are bullshit.

if anyone’s interested, my old posts on the matter are here: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. they’re all months old and quite out of date by now, as i’ve been pretty good at keeping the blogs blocked, but i do think they include some well-written points (much better than this post lol, i just woke up). something has changed though; i say in one of the posts that i’d have no problem with the theories being true, but the blogs have since begun more proudly displaying some truly insane accusations, which i would absolutely have a huge fucking problem with.

anyways. most of the new stuff i’ve seen comes from tori and co, see dtmsrpfcringe and the council (lol) for more, if you want to see a bunch of wonderful people fighting a shit show to protect the fandom.

[tylered-up-in-blue]

Response to “The Magic Trick You Didn’t See” / The Coffee Theory

I, like many people in the Good Omens fandom, have already read the big essay “The Magic Trick You Didn’t see” –which blows up the coffee theory that’s been circulating on my twitter page to greater heights and big claims. I have some thoughts.

First of all: I think that the original essay has a few details wrong, essentially because it falls into a kind of utilitarian perspective with the whole magic show metaphor. The thing is –sometimes details which are left hanging, or themes which are shown to be important, don’t always tie up somewhere. Sometimes they’re there because they’re interesting, or poking at intrigue –trying to get you to notice and note down for later, rather than evidence of one ultimate solution that’ll be revealed as a holistic great plot. Also “I didn’t think the writing was good in this moment” isn’t very convincing to me, I’m sorry.

But –I do think that they were onto something. I hesitate to make any grand claims, like “Maggie isn’t real,” or “The Metatron is editing the book of life,” because -to be honest- I don’t trust myself to put my name to something as big as that, and I don’t want to erase my favourite thing about Good Omens: its whimsicality. But I will say that there are themes and notable elements which I think will be important later and hint at some larger fuckery (if you’ll excuse the OFMD reference) going on, so consider this a kind of rejigging of the theory to be a more thematic approach that lays out things I just thought were interesting under an more open-ended (or flip-floppy, depending on how you take it) idea:

Something was going on this season which will be revealed as a Heavenly plot to split Aziraphale and Crowley up by the end. It worked. And the person to reveal the greater plot will be Muriel.

I’ll write down first of all a list of things that have been introduced to the world of Good Omens which I think are important, and highlight why one of them sticks out to me. Then I’ll work on a thematic basis of what things are shown to be worth narrative focus/presuppose S3. The first two themes are very much commentary drawing on the essay I’m responding to, and the second two are more my own ideas –certainly the fourth.

Okay, so: there are introductions to the Good Omens-verse which are clearly there to expand our world for later use. I don’t know if all of these things will come up again, but by the end of this season we know:

There are Nazi (and possibly more) zombies running around London.

There is a gun in Aziraphale’s bookshop -in case it’s needed. 

Heaven is interested in keeping things quiet, and they will fiddle with memories to do so. Erased memories can be “stored” in things/creatures.

There is a thing called “The Book of Life” that if you’re written out of, you NEVER EXISTED. (It can be edited, too, presumably.)

Crowley is possibly the most powerful being in the show. “Half a tiny miracle” ends up being enough to resurrect someone 25 times over, and his attempt to stay calm after a little tiff with aziraphale results in draining the street of electricity. Also he created the entire universe. (coming back to amend this with the fact Neil said he got going just "that tiny corner of space" -but I still feel there is significant evidence to say he is very powerful:) )

I lay these out because they’re just good to have noted down, really, and because they’re definitely GOING to be important. ALSO because the last one makes sense for the greater aim to be breaking up the ineffable husbands. Emphasis on Crowley’s power –and for their shared power– sets up a REAL threat for what we KNOW will be the basis of s2: The Second Coming. If you’re Heaven, and you want the second attempt at an apocalypse to be successful, you’d be stupid to let the two celestial beings who were meddling in the whole averted-apocalypse ordeal last time to just be AROUND for it. Especially when one has the ability to stop time!!! You’ve GOT to break them up. 

Theme 1: Investigation (Muriel!)

Investigation is a fun little theme in s2: Aziraphale goes full detective mode. He loves the clues, he’s in his little trilby investigating. All the marketing was very investigative and invites the audience to pay close attention. And there are SO many little easter eggs. From The Colour of Magic appearing to Gabriel reading the first lines of Good Omens –even as small as a Terry Prattchet impersonator speaking over the tannoy in Hell, or the film in The Resurrectionist being chosen specifically to play because there’s a scene where Jimmy Stewart talks to a fly. 

So! Investigation is fun! It’s important. And my favourite part of the essay I’m responding to is definitely that about Muriel. I think that all this build up to the detective-vibe is going to cumulate in their s3 role. Essentially: I entirely agree that they are coded as the one to blow open this whole case in S3. The police costume and giving them The Crow Road are certainly suggestive–but more than anything, leaving them in charge of the bookshop (full of Aziraphale’s diaries and books and everything) props them up perfectly to earn the promo they got for s2. Because I’m not sure about you, but my mutuals and I were shocked that the NYCC scene (“hello hello hello, I’m a human police officer!”) didn’t happen until episode three. From the way the promo was going (character profiles, trailer etc.) I thought Muriel would be in s2 WAY more.

They also make a HUGE point of how Muriel is considered “nobody.” They say it themselves, they’re called “the dull one” by Metatron.

They set them up perfectly to solve this later.

Theme 2: Memories and Stories:

Memory! Another theme! –memory that can be tampered with, contained, erased and returned.

Heaven is willing to meddle with and erase memories if necessary. They are, then, SUBTLE.

There is no God narrator.

There is a statue immortalising a very real Gabriel (somehow/for some reason –Gabriel was also involved in its making?) 

My favourite part of season 2 was definitely the minisodes. The costumes, the settings –I was so surprised to find the horses and carts in ep 3 were CGI in the X-Ray! They look so good! I loved how every single flashback was incredibly vital and interesting to expand on Aziraphale and Crowley’s relationship –that convo on the rock in ep 2? WOW. Stunned. Anyway, not to go on.

I completely disagree with the conviction that these were edited. I think that, to the contrary, these memories are (IF there’s something going on with temptation/persuasion (more on that later) and The Book of Life) are ENTIRELY real. And the reason for that is highlighted in the very essay: each memory is tied to a physical record of it happening. The Book of Job; the Polaroid in ‘41, and Aziraphale’s diaries. This is not to say that there aren’t still gaps: where was the “I’m sorry” dance of ‘41? If Aziraphale wasn’t drinking in 2500 BC then when did he start? Just little things like this.

This is the thing: stories, words, are vital. The challenge that they gave the guy who did Sherlock (I can’t remember his name I’m sorry!) –it’s talked about in the X-Ray– was to have words pop out in 4 different ways across S2. This a fun stylistic choice, but it also gives words narrative attention, so ties in with all this. Without God to narrate, narratives and accounts are left to the characters within the world. It’s fun and important both. So is the spelling stuff. Maggie can’t spell, neither can the demons. (She may be a demon herself –I’m not entirely convinced it’s this simple, tbh, but Aziraphale’s miracle not working on her in ep5 is definitely a red flag.) Anyway – it’s also interesting.

With all this, my idea that Heaven/Metatron had been planning the aziracrow divorce from the beginning might mean they’re tampering with The Book of Life –it also could mean that they’re ABOUT to do something weird with Aziraphale’s memories, or all these pieces are going to become very very helpful for Muriel’s investigation.

I really do wonder what this role of records, memories and narratives will come to, but I have a feeling it’ll bleed into s3.

Theme 3: Food

Crowley was the reason Aziraphale tried food in the first place. I just wanted to put that down because of course he was, but also it is deeply INSANE that he INTRODUCED AZIRAPHALE TO THE CONCEPT OF EATING. God, David was right. They really don't exist without each other.

This is kind of the point I make with food here: it’s a HUGE theme in s2, largely just to emphasise the fact that it’s powerful.

For some reason (jokey or otherwise) eccles cakes can “calm you down.”

Aziraphale becomes significantly bonded to Crowley by eating the Ox in ep2. Later, Crowley is “as strong as an Ox." –fun little echo.)

They drink the same wine as always in ‘41 –they share no wine in s2, just the sherry and whiskey respectively. They also don’t share a meal, which seems interesting. I personally think that it’s to do with consumption being a metaphor for queer desire, and the absence of it being a sign of C/A being on “their own side” in s2. Crowley abandons temptation as Aziraphale abandons attempts to “save” Crowley. –-Or it may mean something else!

Crowley drinks laudanum and it makes him go lala. It ALSO makes him turn tiny, then giant, and he does something kind –kind enough to get him dragged off to hell and tortured so badly that he’s asking for holy water as “insurance” 40 years later.

That fucking oatmilk almond coffee. Okay. So if food is powerful, this has weight. From the colour of it being weird against the background to the fact (to quote my dear friend Jey) “nobody fucking drinks almond syrup!!” –I’m sure you’ve see all this going around. Almonds are obviously very poison-coded, and considering the above point I smell something strange. (I don’t believe it was quite a case of drugging per say, but more metaphor: Aziraphale is being tempted. He’s being manipulated, and drawn back into the culty office world of heaven.)

So what we know here is that food is powerful. An important metaphor and force (especially for aziracrow.)

Theme 4: Resurrection

OKAY: so, this is the most original of my listing in these themes. I am so interested in this resurrection thing they’ve got going.

The Resurrectionist pub: where Gabriel and Beez come to their plan. We see that The Dirty Donkey is a lift to heaven (which NOT enough people are talking about) –so what about The Resurrectionist? What power does it hold as a space? Why is the legacy of Mr Dalrymple important?

Why did (wee) Morag’s eyes glow briefly? Is she a zombie now?

Zombies exist. We know this. They’re also tied to the concept of consumption, which is cool.

Heaven measures miracles by Lazarii.

Gabriel, in one of his flashes of prophecy, says: “there will come a tempest (...) the dead will rise from their graves and wander the earth once more.”

These are all cool. Thematically, it seems that being raised from the dead is going to be something big. I’m interested in this, considering that after Gabriel said the above mentioned prophecy my good friend Jey said “hold on, is this going to be about The Rapture?”

Now: we know that “668: Neighbour of the Beast” was supposed to be set in America. Whether it actually is or not, I don’t know, but I think that if it is about a second coming on American soil, The Rapture feels VERY pertinent. The dead are the first to rise and be with God in The Rapture, but all believers join them: and they join them permanently. In some versions, there is a period in which Christ rules the earth. All very fun and interesting prospects for s3!

Where this leaves us:

S2 is the “bridge” between 1 and 3, in Neil’s words. It’s the “romantic filling” of the sandwich.

I would argue that some seriously tough bread started with “oh Crowley, nothing lasts forever,” but hey ho, that’s the very ending of the season. I just want to talk about coded language/draw on what I’ve just said to talk about how we’re set up for the structures of s3:

Heaven is a CULT. A serious cult. From the (temptation) manipulation of the coffee, to the man at the pub calling Gabriel a “mason” –which I’m assuming he means freemason– to the frankly INSANE smile on Michael Sheen’s face as the credits roll (also sickening lighting there)– they are a big threatening cult, and that is going to be important. I think it’ll just get increasingly so.

FurFur and Shax have it OUT for the ineffable husbands. Like they are NOT fans. And they seem to also be buddies now so… not great news.

In The Scene </3 Crowley stops himself short of saying he’d like to spend eternity with Aziraphale, and instead asks him to “go off together,” just like s1 –I think their language is going to develop hugely in s3. It’ll go back to being the space they “carved out for themselves,” only further.

And finally: a bet. The last time we see Crowley, he’s in a car full of plants because he’s carrying “their side” away with him. I am willing to bet –not that this is a hottake or anything– that it’ll end, as it began: in a garden. S3 will end in the garden of their South Downs Cottage !!!

[thebestsweetischocolate]

Hello TADC fandom? I want to share this theory that I've been thinking about since the pilot episode, it's just a silly theory that mostly won't make sense.

I also want to say that English is not my native language but I will try to explain it as best I can.

<Spoilers below>

Well, I've seen that there is a somewhat popular theory in the fandom. That at the end of the series everyone will leave the digital world except one of them. Many say that it is Pomni, but I think that it will be Jax and no, not because he is going to sacrifice himself for everyone or something like that (or maybe yes, but in a different way), but because he was always in the real world and the bunny Jax is an avatar that he use to interact with the others in the digital world. With what we saw in this second episode and the merch that has come out, it has made me think more about that possibility.

We already know that he can do some things (like swearing) that others can't, he also tends to look at the fourth wall when he says certain things (it happened in both episodes) it seems like he's talking to us or the others characters, but I think he's talking to "them", the ones who created that digital world, he being one of that C&A's crew

Maybe his past made him become a person who doesn't care about others and is only interested in "having fun" even if it endangers another person. For some reason he was hired by the C&A, why? I don't know, it could be for many things… Anyway, they use Jax to keep an eye on them and the C&A gives him total freedom to do whatever he wants in that world and with those who are trapped there. Pomni may have been hired by them too but she didn't know what they really did and accidentally ended up in the digital world or maybe she did know and wanted to save those people, whatever the reason was, as we know, she doesn't remember.

But anyway, what I'm saying is that in the end everyone in the digital circus is going to find out who Jax really is and what he's been doing to them. Pomni will try to save them and perhaps Jax will decide to help her from the outside to get everyone out of that world, since he seems to feel some sadness or guilt for those who have abstracted (maybe he is regretting what they are doing to those people)

---------------

And that's it, that's my dumb nonsense theory and yes, I know I said "maybe" and "digital world" many times lmao, and I'm sure I contradicted myself in several things I said, but anyway, it's too late and I just wanted to share this with someone. If anyone reads this and understands my poor attempt to explain this theory, you can add whatever you want or tell me it's a stupid theory lol

[stepmarchen]

first off my apologies for this as i feel it's an overrated thing for the ASM fandom, but i would love your take on the historical fashion shown in the manhwa, the references to real life and the anachronistic choices to boot. i hope you're not too bothered by this! also love your thoughts on asm lol

no worries at all! i'm not the greatest history buff so i'm going to have to say sorry in advance too

anyway, i just looooove the historical world building/fashion in ASM! I think it's one of the best period-inspired comics in the "historical" genre despite it being inspired by multiple different historical time periods. get ready because... i have a lot to say.

now i wouldn't call myself a huge stickler for historical accuracy but personally, i like to feel totally transported to another time when i'm reading a period piece. And a lot of "princess" manhwa often take loose inspiration from history given that they're also in the fantasy YA genre.

here's what i mean.

the isekai genre inherently caters towards young women and selling "the fantasy" that is "we want to make you feel like a princess". While historical accuracy is super cool, there's a certain amount of modernization needed to appeal to the modern audience.

Changes might include: modern hollywood curls over a powdered wig with ringlet curls, the hourglass silhoutte over the historically accurate higher waister silhouette, or stylish stilettos over buckled mules (you get it)

a huge percentage of isekai/fantasy manga/manhwa do this (even to the extreme) and most of the time, it works (some examples below).

The problem is when it isn't intentional. ie: Artists going for the "historically accurate" route and fail to use props that suit the intended setting (not going to show examples, sorry)

ASM does a wonderful job at keeping to the historically accurate theme with the 19th century inspired fashion. And the only real anachronistic choice is the "anime hair" (which I think we can all stand by).

In particular, this panel of Theo trying on his new outfit for the gala really surprised me. It's the first time I've seen a male character wearing century accurate justacorps, breeches, and heels.

Something else I love is the style preferences between different characters, in relation to their age, status, and personality. It's even mentioned vocally by the characters! ie: Rachel wishing she could wear a bustle like Shuri, Shuri opting for "younger styles" now that she has been reborn, and Nora/Jeremy dressing freely (because boys will be boys).

The Empress (and Heidi) wear larger, more extravagant silhouettes, politically symbolic jewelry, and updos fitting of their high status. You can really feel the weight and layers that they're wearing, making them clear figures of power. It's an excellent design choice while staying true to the time period.

Meanwhile, Shuri often wears lighter dresses with less volume and simple accents as opposed to the flair of the royals or the youthful embellishments (like ribbbons or bows) of younger unmarried girls like Ohara.

HOWEVER! I have a growing theory that ORKA likes to use dresses as a narrative device. I think that ORKA styles Shuri in ribbons and "younger" styles instead of her common looks during romantic scenes to remind us readers that she really is just a girl inside, not anyone's mother.

I'm super eager to see how the fashion evolves as we move through Season 3! In the latest chapters, Shuri is starting to wear narrower silhouettes, suggestive of the coming turn of the century.

Also, with the characters growing up, we will probably get different male outfits (as opposed to Jeremy's typical knights training uniform and Nora's basic look).

Thanks for listening to my rant!

[theshoesofatiredman]

Just stopped being Christian after being “born again” for 2 years and I…feel so duped. I feel sad. Even tho I was “progressive” and believed in universalism and affirmed homosexuality, it ultimately didn’t make the religion less nonsensical.

I annotated the shit out of the New Testament and Mere Christianity by CS Lewis…I loved Jesus with all my heart. And now I know that everything is fake because my brain couldn’t handle the cognitive dissonance anymore. Like the fact that we have no idea what was actually said by anyone in the NT because random men were writing about it decades after the events. And that even though progressives can look at the OT as mostly being metaphorical, ultimately they would still believe the core messages are true because it’s divinely inspired. And idk, the writers being ‘inspired’ by God doesn’t make sense to me anymore.

Just constantly seeing 99% of christians be conservative or take the bible literally was so exhausting. Progressive christianity can be nice but it’s ultimately a walking contradiction, like you trying to make christianity all about Jesus and love and you have to ignore large chunks of everything else. 

It’s so sad. I loved Christian music. I had 50 Christian nonfiction books on my to-read list. And now that’s all gone. Buddhism and Islam and greek mythology and zorioastronism and all that…it’s all humans trying to make sense of spirituality. Christianity is no different. I cant believe I thought it was different. 

On the bright side it is such a relief to feel like I am not being watched anymore. Oh my goshhhhh. Even with my super soft imaginary Jesus that was basically a light of love, I still couldn’t stand the feeling of my thoughts always being watched. I thought about the fact that I was being watched while I pooped lmao 😭

Sorry 2 dump this on you <3 I’ll also be posting on Reddit. I guess I rlly feel the need to share all this because such a huge chunk of my life is now gone. It’s weird.

As a person who started a Tumblr solely so I could share my experience deconstructing, and eventually leaving, Christianity, I absolutely get the need to share this with people!! I'm sorry you're having to deal with the pain of losing your faith, but I do want to say that life gets better. It's possible to build a rich and beautiful life after leaving religion behind and I hope that you can look forward to having that, to building that.

I can imagine how frustrating it must've been and must be to constantly reckon with conservative christians' interpretations. My faith experience was inside conservative evangelicalism and one of the things I found myself mulling over as I was deconstructing was whether or not I could find a home inside a more progressive part of the faith. And one of the things I realized was that there would likely be no escaping the homophobic conservative Christians if I stayed inside the faith. And as a gay man, I was deeply tired of being in community with them.

Yes, you can go to an incredibly welcoming and affirming church. But what if you go to a Christian conference? Or a concert for a Christian artist? If I ever wanted to create religious art, my sexuality was going to be a ? for people and put a target on my back. You're in a fandom where power is concentrated in the hands of people with very bigoted views. You can carve out your own corner, but so long as bigotry is mainstream canon you're gonna struggle to avoid it entirely.

Ultimately, I left the faith because I stopped believing. I think I would've stayed long enough to test my theories on proximity to Biblical homophobia if I had been able to keep believing.

Most modern religions take only portions of an old sacred text and call it sacred. There are so many different versions of Christianity because everyone is focusing on different bits and adding in stuff to suit them. Sometimes that's cultural and sometimes that's one gross man fucking things up for everyone. Now as a non-religious person I don't think there's much wrong with that so long as you're honest about it.

Modern Christians should reject harmful past teachings and verses that contribute to toxic theology. Even if it's just "I don't agree with that so I don't believe it", that is less harmful for the world than someone saying "well I don't like it but it's god's word so guess I have to believe in eternal conscious torment hell." That dissonance can be a really really hard place to live though which is why most religions have social technology to resolve that "that's not what it really meant", "it was a different time", "thanks to progressive revelation we know that's not how God wants us to live anymore", etc etc. But often times those are only temporarily satisfying.

I'm glad you are enjoying some of these freedoms of apostasy already. No longer having an all seeing eye watching and judging you is a tremendous weight lifted. I hope that as your journey continues, you find yourself less and less burdened and more and more free. Thank you for sharing. Wish you the best!

[allastoredeer]

Discussing fandom and its trends is one of my favorite things 🤓 I hope you don't mind me sharing some of the pseudotheories and pseudoanalyses I've seen before (to me they're all fun and I don't think they should be taken 100% seriously, please no one be offended)

1 The name of the boat that goes first is the favorite.

Quite funny in my opinion and from what I have seen it is not necessarily false, but many times it is that putting it differently sounds *wrong*, especially when they are combinations of the name

(Although after seeing that apparently apple radio and radioapple are not the same now I need an explanation of what radiosilent is as opposed to radiostatic)

2 The sub is The favorite

The first time I saw this was in a SW comment thread with a Chinese reader who was commenting with the author about top/Bottom preferences for the language and commented on this theory. They said that the Bottom gets all the love and since you want your favorite character to be adored that's why you write it like that

3 you project yourself into the Bottom

This came from another fandom, things got heated and toxic and a common accusation from a ship is that half the ship "had no personality" and they were using it to project themselves into a relationship whith the top

Personally I think they are all true to some extent, but I also see them as renunciationist and I myself am not without my own prejudices.

Part of the problem is that in relationships m/m and w/w, they continue to be written as one part a hairy-chested alpha male and the other part a blushing, submissive (and I have a weakness for ABO bulbs but there the problem is worse). In the case of radioapple Alastor has been reduced to his ego and need for control (so he could never let go. And is there something strangely allosexual about the way they write it?) and Lucifer to his depression (so he needs to be adored... And the truth is, I do think 3 applies here)

With what we see, I think that Lucifer has no problem being at the bottom, but his preference is at the top, even bordering on the Dom.Lucifer has insecurity and depression but he also knows he is powerful and we see him being authoritarian even if he later recants.He seems to be the type who would enjoy being the one to give pleasure to his partner, but I also don't see him giving up control easily when there are already so many things in his life out of control.Lucifer doesn't want someone to come in and take control by emptying his head, he wants something he can control and show exactly how good he is at it.

Alastor, on the other hand (this is where my prejudice comes in): what does he gain by being the top? Some kind of power play? Because I feel like Alastor can find that high without involving genital play.How ace (and probably aroace and almost certainly on the gray or demi side for most fics to work) Alastor would need something more to really get involved like that, which is why I feel like the top Alastor fics almost always feel too Allo for my taste, he just fucks like anyone else.When Alastor is the Bottom the writer gives him a little more nuance.

So that's my two cents to the discussion 🙃

Honestly, I think you're on point with most of these. (I too would like to know the difference between radiosilence and radiostatic - i see a lot of different names pop up for Alastor/Vox, whether its reciprocal or unrequited, and I can't keep up with it. I think radiosilence means the attraction is one-side? Maybe?? I think??

I can see the logic behind people having their fav be the bottom because they want them to feel loved and adored. I, too, am guilty of this. It also probably helps that the top is usually depicted as doing most of work LOL (Bringing Doms and Subs into this, there are a lot of fics that explore sub-drop, usually with their fav character--which I totally get--but it'd be interesting to read more fics that explore dom-drop too).

Personally, I've never felt any real attraction towards the characters I like, so I've never projected myself as a bottom or top through a pairing to be with one of the character. I project my insecurities and life experiences on them 🤓☝️ LMAO same basic concept, just a different shades But characterXreader fics/posts are super popular! So, I see that one too.

Part of the problem is that in relationships m/m and w/w, they continue to be written as one part a hairy-chested alpha male and the other part a blushing, submissive (and I have a weakness for ABO bulbs but there the problem is worse). In the case of radioapple Alastor has been reduced to his ego and need for control (so he could never let go. And is there something strangely allosexual about the way they write it?) and Lucifer to his depression (so he needs to be adored... And the truth is, I do think 3 applies here)

Very much agreed. I enjoy Omegaverse fics too, but it's one of those fanfic tropes that I'm picky about. It needs to be written a certain way for me to really enjoy it.

I don't know, just the default that one person has to be dominate and the other has to submissive never sat right with me. For a long time, I was super squicked out by even the thought of being in a relationship because of this. I'm a small person, most people are taller than me, and I'm pretty thin, so the mental assumption that I'd have to be "the submissive one," considering that's what almost always happens in these depicted relationships, made me feel so much anger, anxiety, and discomfort. I hated the thought that that's what would be expected of me. (Personal lore drop: considering I also grew up in a hyper-religious, extremely patriarchal town, the expectation felt 10x worse and 100x more real. I dreaded getting older and starting romantic/sexual relationships).

Also, yes, with a lot of top!Alastor content I've seen, there is something very strangely allosexual about it. Or, at least that's how it comes off to me. Asexuality is a spectrum, so there's no "perfect" way to be ace, it's just...there's just something about it that feels very allosexual, and maybe why I keep shying away from it. It squicks me out a bit, ngl.

People keep saying they see Lucifer as a switch, and funnily enough, it was actually confirmed by Vivenne Mendrano that he canonically is a switch! Of course, if people want to see him exclusively as a bottom or top, that's fair. You do you, boo. We're here to have a good time. But I'm very happy with his canon sexuality, so that's where I keep him. I can see him as a sub and a dom, too.

I also see Lucifer as the type who enjoys giving his partner pleasure! Be it bottoming, topping, subbing, or domming. He'll try out kinks and position and role-play, because I headcanon him and Lilith having a very healthy, very explorative sex-life. They were freaks in the sheets, and they tried all the new, crazy shit sinners brought with them into Hell.

I keep Alastor exclusively as a bottom, though. Some of it is because I see him being kind of grossed out with the idea of a part of him going into someone else (hello self projection!) but I also see him generally being sex-indifferent. Like, he'll have sex, and he'll enjoy it, but it's not something he typically seeks out for himself. Maybe once in a way, when he's in the ✨mood✨ he'll initiate. If his partner wants sex and he doesn't, he's not forcing himself. If his partner wants sex and he's kind of just vibing--not feeling horny, but not really against it either--yeah, he'll have sex. It's not like he's getting nothing out of it, he still feels and enjoys the pleasure in the act, even if he's generally indifferent towards doing it.

If he's comfortable with it he'll even indulge their kinks (and indulge his own 😉 not all kinks have to be sexual, afterall. And even if his are, that is still valid and does not take away from his sexuality because aces can still have sexual kinks 🫵 I'm looking at you, people who assume aces can't have sexual desires). (I also gave Alastor a power kink 😏 because I think he'd be into his partner displaying immense amounts of power. It doesn't even have to be directed at him. He'll watch his boo destroy a city block and then fuck them later because that was hawt.)

A lot of it could also be because he feels too allo for me when he is written as a top. Lol "he fucks like everyone else," is a very good way to put it 😂 When he bottoms, it feels like he's written with more of his ace-identity in mind, which I love!

But also, I like Alastor being a bottom just because. I vibe with it. 'Nuff said.

Thank you for your two cents!

[thisislittlerunaway]

Right, maybe I’m just having my moment, but in this post I’m gonna rant because I am getting very, very sick of eating mouldy bread and crumbs at the waffle house nowadays 🤢. It is demoralising, is it not?

Firstly, please don’t attack me, I’m as much a hardcore shipper as you are, but undeniably my rationality never stops me from playing devil’s advocate. It has been vexing seeing the fandom going back and forth with theories just to keep the Lukola ship afloat amid the reality of L dating and N moving on from captaining the ship.

As much as I love Nic and Luke, I don’t plan to give up my grasp on reality to fool myself into delusion. I’m way too old and realistic for that, and by crossing over to delulu land I would be making what I believe real in my mind, rather than observing something real and appreciating it, which is how I believe I got into this fandom.

So far evidence has shown N & L seem to be very different people in terms of work ethics, career projection, choice of friends, attitude to fans and fame, and PR strategies among other things. Plus, as much as the fandom tries in its most creative ways to dismiss this, Luke does have an ‘alleged’ gf whom he takes seriously enough to bring with him almost everywhere, and who has somehow stuck around for almost a year. Say what you like but Luke’s actions don’t scream one-sided from A at all. And who is she to be so powerful to ‘force’ him into bringing her everywhere?

I ship Lukola, but I don’t NEED them to exist. If there really isn’t anything between them (ever, or anymore) apart from a good friendship, it is OK, I just want to know.

Promotion period is over. We have given S3 so much hype and this has resulted in amazing success and public recognition. Luke is still with A and seemingly distancing himself from the B’ton bubble, N has moved on to other projects, so why can’t they just release us from this rollercoaster of emotions by confirming once and for all that they are just friends. I bet some fans (like myself) will appreciate being freed from the misery.

The only possible reason I can think of to explain why we are stuck here in the WH with all this mess is perhaps when N & L were chosen as S3 leads, their contract got renewed and part of it requires them to drive this dating narrative for as long as they are cast members. It is likely Shondaland has learnt from previous seasons and QC how powerful fans can be when they wholeheartedly believe in a ship and decided to fully capitalize on this, not just for S3 but for as long as they can. Conveniently they have N & L who are very close and comfortable with each other, and the very hard working Nic who seems to have chemistry with everyone and understands how a fandom works way too well.

So, as per their contract, N & L cannot publicly claim any gf/bf, but of course neither Netflix nor Shondaland can stop them living their personal lives, or stop their friends and tabloids from digging into N and L’s private lives for publicity. I can imagine this to be suffocating, I wouldn’t be surprised if L did find it too much and just wanted to get away from it all as soon as possible, hence his behaviour since Part 2 premier. This is obviously bad for publicity and potentially upset N + Shonda who work super hard for B’ton and S3 to be a success. I suspect there is tension and disagreement behind the scene, and while they want to keep us believing in Lukola, they really can’t control Luke’s life. This explains all the mixed messages we are getting.

So now we have it, an awkward situation where our beloved find themselves damned if they do and damned if they don’t. So much conflict of interest, so strong also is the sentiment from fans who are ready for the next backlash in response to any upsetting news that no one wants to risk losing the support by officially busting the bubble.

Hence we are all stuck. Luke buried himself in the sand with HBS ver 2 and Nic buries herself in work. We are left starved, only barely kept alive when Netflix, Shondaland and some cast/crew occasionally drop some BTS and info to keep us interested.

This was never what I signed up for when I joined this fandom. I am frustrated, a bit heart broken, and getting more and more cynical each day. I am hanging dearly on to my seat in the waffle house but trust me, some days I wish I had never got here in the first place.

End of my rant, I’ll probably sulk a bit and get back here tomorrow to continue with all this shipping business 🤷🏻‍♀️.

Have a good day!

[ssunandmunn]

hazbin hotel leaks + spoilers

save yourself and report the videos/ images circulating on x n tiktok cuz let's be real, that’s how it got viral

(eng is not my first language, excuse the use of incorrect gramatical sentences)

i usually keep my mouth quite when talking about fandom stuff cuz i seriously don’t care after watching the canon once, i mostly move to fanarts and fanfics and ignore everything else; i only do fanart and never say a thing, also cuz 50% of fandoms discussions are about ships or controversial shut in the bts which idc as long as i can enjoy a good story, the good visual work of animators/ fanartists, bla bla bla

with that said, i have a lot of thoughts with the hazbin hotel leaks + spoilers

read with caution

first things first, i made a 40 minute audio yapping about this with my friends (who haven't watched hazbin yet, and one of them has but like, they’re not super interested and we don’t talk about it) and i feel like sharing it (not the audio, just what i said)

i found the leaks while scrolling through tiktok, i thought it was fanmade just like many people, but rather well made, i scrolled past it quickly because fanmades audios kinda give me cringe but since the art was well made i was gonna watch it later, then i scrolled a bit more and found out it was an actual leak

after reading a ton of comments about how they hate rosie now, and about it being senseless, i found myself remembering how much people was hating on lilith and eve with the theory that they owned alastor's soul

and tbh i think that’s just misogynistic; we barely know lilith far more than she's probably in heaven; and for eve? i have pity for her, because, not to be that person but everyone points their finger at her just because she ate a goddanm apple, which luci and lili convinced her to eat, and we don’t even know the full story about that either, hell, we don't even know how she looks like, i love the theories that she has brown hair and is brown skinned or even that she's just a copy of lilith, yet we don’t know if that's canon, and it doesn’t matter

but i don’t like the way they just happen to have "owning" alastor in common, and just having theories antagonizing them for that little idea, which is fair, i'm not saying evil women are bad or whatever, i actually think that’s kinda hot, but now with the leaks it just showed a different flavor of people for me

i read a lot of comments or people complaning cuz now they "hate her", "their friendship is ruined" or "it doesn’t make sense"

the latter type of comments, i understand them, i won't deny im a radiorose shipper, both platonically and romantically, and in every prudly (does that word exist? i mean like a prude ok) and kinky way as well, yet, y'all are forgetting one thing: they are all in hell, every single of the main cast is in hell, yes, some seem kinda more innocent than others; vaggie - iykyk, niffty and even husk or cherry (and i think pen too, i didn’t watched his leaks -or any other leaks tbh- only the radiorose ones cuz my fyp knows me, but you get it) but that doesn’t mean they're not guilty for what ever they did to be in hell

that's why i believe that we shouldn't expect them to behave like normal people - they're no longer people, they're sinners, they did something bad and have lost all sense of moral, that's why i kinda understand that both alastor and rosie might have been faking it, yet, if you think about twice, she’s probably not that bad, manipulative and cruel and narcissitic like every overlord? yes, but since alastor took charlie right away to rosie when she had girlfriend problems means they still have some sort of trusting in eachother; also why would rosie offer him having deals with others like nothing if she only wants like torture him or idk - she wants something but she doesn’t seem as bad as the way alastor behaves towards husk, which to me he seems kinda physically abusive, meanwhile i can rosie being mentally/ psychologically abusive (i feel i worded that wrong, but u get it)

which, to be powerful overlords, seems ok for me - "but friendship doesn’t work now since there’s power imbalance" my dear child, there’s always gonna be power imbalance in between in every relationship in your life, it can economically, mentally, culturally, bla bla bla, half of my friends are in a better situation than me, and the others just not, and that affects the way we socialize with one another

anyway, now, with the massive dislike towards rosie i just have to say that i feel that people are just plain mysoginist, maybe im approaching this wrongly, but seriously, u go from hating lilith/ eve (i thought about roo too, but she has no background to defend her) to rosie; just because of a man? not cool - also, people seemed to like her just because alastor liked her, now he doesn’t "like" her u don’t like her? 💀

i understand the hate towards valentino, for being who he is and all that, but being abusive apparently is allowed for alastor and not for others around him? i won't hide that alastor is my most disliked character in this cartoon, i don’t hate him, but he is unsavory for me and is overrated, his backstory is super boring, having rosie allegedly owning his soul since he was alive sounded super fun and far more interesting rather than just being powerful because radio was popular back in his day, but with all the leaks and people praying for it fake and discarted makes me feel bad for the writers, and the animators and everyone in the staff

they are already over exploited for people to not like the product, and basically begging for it to be changed when that’s a lot of money, i know that probably nothing will change and people are just being dramatic, me doing this post in kinda dramatic too, but seriously, it almost looks like this is alastor's show and not charlie's or the full hotel crew

also they made a big deal for alastor not being handsome enough in their human form, idk i just feel like ??? alastor is not the center of the universe, of this universe we know has hazbin!!!

to be a misandric man, he got lot of mysoginistic fans

just to conclude, i find the leaks and leakers super annoying, hope they do burn in hell - and if you find leaks, report the posts and videos as much as you can and scroll away

and to be honest, the fact that rosie owns alastor doesn’t bother me that much, as i said before, i think it's fun and interesting, and as a high shipper of them (an a rosie lover/ fan) it just gives me ideas to daydream about them 24/7 even more

i hope it's not fake and they keep it, and that there’s a great story behind their relationship, i have to say that before this i had not much hope for the hhs2, i kinda just wanted more radiorose interaction and i was kinda craving niffty + rosie interaction too, i hope with all this dynamic, niffty doesn’t hate rosie or viceversa or both ways, i find them both unhinged and lovely and could make a kinda similar dynamic like the one niff has with alastor

i think i said everything i wanted to say (and even more, cuz after i did that long audio for my friends, more leaked stuff started to stalk me) and that audio of mine also included some opinions about helluva boss, but that’s for another day

if you read this i'm glad you did and, well, i put this here because i have no one to talk about it without feeling i'm annoying

✨️

[plothooksinc]

For the WIP meme: 🗣️ 📄 ❔ 🤔

🗣️Talk about your favourite WIP

This is actually super hard. Like I love all my WIPs! (Nobody ask me which WIP I hate b/c the answer is "lol none"). Picking a favourite... well, Infinite Ricochet is the easiest to write currently and I'm looking forward to making readers scream dropping the actual plot, but.

But.

I just finished a reread of The Zaibatsu Project and honestly, cyberpunk samurai? I have so much going on in this and I'm proud of myself for taking a bunch of 19th century characters and going "nope you're all from 2029 now" and realising just how much plot I had on the go and that, actually, the last chapter I put up wasn't so terrible or poorly received after all (and I'm struggling to work out why I ever thought that.) It reminded me where I was going with it and I am very encouraged, and it is by far my most ambitious WIP and if Watsuki hadn't taken a sledgehammer to everyone's motivation to do anything with the Ruroken fandom I might actually write this a lot faster than, uh, one chapter every three years '_' Anyway, yes. Cyberpunk samurai, choc full of The Cure references, chess references, and conspiracy theories that drove people nuts on LJ back in the day back when I was writing it in serial installments. <3

📄What’s a WIP you never finished that you would like to go back and revisit?

All of them. But as I've been asked this one multiple times, let's go with Snowblind. It's the closest to being finished out of all of them, and the last time I updated I got a reviewer in her 70s going "Please don't take another 13 years to update, I probably wont' be here to read it," sob. So I whittle away some time on this one. (On them all, actually. While I'm focused mostly on Infinite Ricochet, I have indeed written 1-2 pages on everything else on my way through.)

❔Choose a random WIP and talk about it.

Infinite Ricochet, unlike its predecessor, is a sprawling take-your-time fic wherein there is a plot and I'm slowly going to keep ratcheting up the tension until people are screaming on the rollercoaster all the way down, but I wanna take time to explore relationships along the way. Like I set up certain dynamics in NRFTW that I want to play with. Literally reconstructed one of the main characters. Gave them all even more trauma! I sort of left off with one open plot thread on NRFTW deliberately which could have been left open ended, but then I thought of a bunch of other stuff and went "...hey, what if." And it's messy. It's so messy here at the start because I'm trying to lay the foundations for everything that comes later, and there's a lot that comes later. So sometimes I'm like "...is this scene really necessary" but also "no I can't jump straight to the plot because pacing let's let them breathe first" but also "oh god, the characters are talking again and I can't get them to shut up." And then trying to get from these personality/foundation-laying scenes to pick up speed with actual plot relevant stuff is surprisingly hard?

My outline for Infinite Ricochet is 8000 words long. And it's only two thirds of the fic, because at that point I went "...and by the time I get to this point the plot will look entirely different" so I stopped. Safe to say I have a lot planned. And if I can get it to work I (and hopefully everyone else) will have so much fun (for a given definition of fun), but it feels a little right now like trying to herd cats so. Wish me luck. 8|

🤔Do you have an WIPs where you wish you had chosen a different fandom/character?

Nope! I'm not a hugely prolific writer, so any time I do start publishing a fic I've already thought long and hard about my choices. Places, everyone.

Thank you!

WIP meme questions here.

[sevensoulmates]

I must say I'm kinda baffled by the way some people are reacting towards Tommy and Buck's scene. Like we may have bi Buck on the horizon so I think we all should be happy about it, I know we are all protective of our ship but this is a good thing because there has to be a catalyst, something that will make a change in Eddie and Buck relationship and this is it. Buck's bi realization is a must if buddie it's going to happen because if buddie does end being together it can't be sudden, it has to be built on. So I'm having a blast with Tommy's character 🤷 he's a funny guy.

Also I may know nothing about cinematography but that little scene there with Tommy, Buck and Eddie seemed important for a reason.

Btw I was wondering about this interview https://youtu.be/vlCRTTAfeYs?si=oiVXhkBu7WQ9hV_1

Because sometimes I still struggle with the real meaning behind some sentences or words in English, when Oliver said:

"You can’t have the audience interpretation in mind too much when you make the show. You have to make it and put it out in the world and people can take what they want."

Can this be interpreted as they wouldn't care if some viewers may have an homophobic reaction towards Eddie and Buck getting together or I'm reading things differently?

I understand people being sensitive to "another barrier" towards buddie but like...yeah, it's getting a little out of hand. It's fine to feel your feelings, but keep them in your group chat's or to your like-minded friends. Please don't make them other people's problems.

I am also having a blast with Tommy! I wasn't sure how they were going to take his character with the reintroduction given how he wasn't the most well-liked character in the Begins episodes. Again, if POC fans never want to forgive him or like him, that's totally fine. I won't ever get on people's cases for disliking him for his past actions. But I do think he'll prove to be interesting if he plays a role for Buck (and Buddie by extension).

I'll give you my personal interpretation (which could be up for debate) of what Oliver said in that interview. To me, he's saying, that he can't always be policing himself when he's acting by wondering "is the audience going to think I'm making this scene too gay?", "will they get mad at me and accuse me of queerbaiting if I act in certain ways with Ryan/Eddie in this scene?", etc. I think that Oliver is very aware of how he and his actions are perceived by the fandom. He's always been the one who has dealt with the brunt of people screaming "BUDDIE!" and "QUEERBAITER!" in his face. If the long-running theory that FOX was purposely not letting Buddie happen is true, then Oliver was probably very aware that anything he did or said would give fans false hope and would lead to disappointment and people disliking him. He seems like a really good guy who doesn't want to really hurt people's feelings that way. But at the end of the day, it hinders an actor's ability to give a character or a scene their all if they're constantly overthinking how it will be perceived by the audience.

So, I think Oliver is saying that he's no longer overthinking his actions when it comes to the way he acts as Buck. If people want to perceive a scene/action as gay, then okay. If they don't, okay. If they hate it, okay. If they love it, fantastic. And the same for any solo Buck scenes or non-buddie scenes too. I'm glad he's trying not to let how other people perceive his acting choices get to him anymore.

I hope I explained myself clearly! And again, that's just MY interpretation of what he said. I'm sure there are plenty of other valid interpretations too.

[lovecaitlined]

My Honest Thoughts on KaySun after Episode 62 🖤

I Can Excuse Bad Characters, But Not Bad Writing

Another ride. I’ve gathered myself and my thoughts up to once again marvel at the bad writing this show has. It’s only saved by KaySun’s chemistry thanks to Taro and Beril’s talents.

Before I begin, I want to say that all these are my own opinions, and I don’t think I’m a 100% right so I welcome other people’s opinions as well. Next, I don’t watch this show religiously—I only look at Kaya and Suna’s scenes, and even then I don’t watch it on the official channel live.

I also want to say I can excuse bad characters, but I cannot excuse bad writing.

I also wish the characters acted logically instead of for the sake of the plot and whatever politics goes behind the scenes (who is your backer, Buce? Onur?) but yeah.

Anyway, let’s start.

Bad Writing

Suna has been OOC for the most part; unfortunately, now, Kaya is as well. The cheating thing was too abrupt. The reason why I take issue with this is because characters are supposed to be driven by the motivations set up by them by the writer. The sudden, illogical changes in Kaya’s and Suna’s characters show that the writer is making them act out of character only 1) for the sake of the plot, 2) to be used as collateral for SeyFer parallels, and 3) to bring in the shock value and retain reytings—a cheap OGM move, because now the story is bad and has lost its value.

I will not excuse Kaya’s and Suna’s behavior. However, I wish they showed us that they were capable of doing such things early on instead of making them OOC. It’s giving me whiplash.

Kaya’s Cheating

I want to say, I hope this is an AsLaz (Yabani) and EsZan (Aşk Mantık İntikam) situation wherein the guy was flat out drunk / drugged and nothing actually happened. But even before that, he was being friendly and basking in Pelin’s attention. Granted, she’s a childhood friend, and he needed someone to talk to—but not someone to flirt with.

I hate how OOC Kaya is. You do not write someone to be a loser in love, who is a stickler for loyalty and protecting his wife, only to throw it all out the window for the sake of a cheap parallel plot. I wish they hinted at Kaya having a roving eye during his marriage with Suna. I would be able to swallow the plot more. However, they doubled down, making him very ideal and loyal, only for him to suddenly “cheat” on her after she acts a bit strange after…4 days? After he was waiting for her to call him?

The fact that he did it with Pelin (and not Pırıl—wtf happened to that plot, anyway?) irks me as well because he knows how Suna feels about Pelin. Maybe Kaya was really drunk (we know he gave up drinking after his ONS with Pırıl), but again, it doesn’t excuse his behavior. And it’s a slap to our faces to see him cuddling in bed with Pelin when we didn’t even get that post-halver scene with Suna.

I want to retain the hope that nothing is as it seems and it’s all an elaborate ploy by Pelin—she will blackmail him for sure, I just know it. I feel he will bring her to the mansion under the guise of protecting her from Serter, and maybe Seyran will beat her up. But I’m not taking my chances.

What do I think will happen next? I do hope Kaya shows remorse and guilt, I do hope he grovels for Suna. I think KaySun will be happy together for a bit before she finds out. However, there are alternative theories in the fandom that 1) He will fall for Pelin for real with his savior complex and make her an official mistress, and/or 2) Pelin gets pregnant. Personally, I don’t see any of those things happening, but who knows with such illogical, poorly planned writing? (Also, no one has sex like 4 days after a miscarriage and a C-section. The same way a loyal man won’t do a 180 after fighting for his wife for 4 days).

Suna’s Destiny

I think I’ve made my thoughts on Suna’s fortune telling arc quite clear in this other post, so I’ll try to keep this short.

We can see her waking up in this episode (we also see that İfakat was behind this sht). But unfortunately, her change of heart came too late—because Kaya has now potentially done something irredeemable?

I am also mad at how OOC Suna is because she’s clearly sane but SO illogically affected by a fortune teller. Make it make sense! She is so dumb (she used to be smart, anxiety-riddled but smart) and she is blaming the fortune teller for ruining her life, when it’s all her fault for misinterpreting everything. No one forced her to interpret things a certain way lmfao. She acted (OOC) of her own volition.

It’s such a huge step back from her character development. I hate seeing regression without reason or payoff. Once again, bad writing—she is acting weird because the plot demands her to, when the original character profile for Suna would never.

I know people are saying she cheated on Kaya emotionally for a teensy tiny moment when she rubbed foreheads with that fck@$$ driver. And yes, she was wrong! I’m not justifying her! But Kaya fcking someone else while still married to her was even worse imo.

I think she’s definitely going to try to make it up to Kaya in the next episodes, even though they haven’t closed the fortune teller arc yet. She’ll probably even want a kid. Will Kaya avoid her this time, out of guilt? Or will he hide what he did and carry on like nothing happen? (I really refuse to believe Kaya will make Pelin a full-time mistress, and I hope I am not wrong). Again, we might get happy KaySun and even halvet 2.0 (we cheered) and then when Suna gets pregnant with a son, she’ll find out about Kaya’s infidelity. Idk, we still have 11 episodes left until the finale on June 7, 2024.

KaySun Endgame

I hate to say this, but they will dig us out of the grave with minimal payoff and then make us endgame. As long as they want us to parallel SeyFer. And as long as Taro and Beril don’t leave the cast (and honestly, why would they, when KaySun trends always and has launched them a lot career-wise?), I am sure they will be 100% endgame. (But at what cost?) It’s unfortunate it had to happen this way, but yeah.

Another thing is Taro and Beril are finally doing promotion together. Maybe because Beril got rid of Ersh!t (rumor has it he’s dating the actress who plays the maid the show), and now they’re free to post like the besties they are. I truly do love and admire Taro and Beril’s professionalism, talent, and friendship. And someone pointed out how he posted about the important girls in his life—he included his mom, his pet dog Lila, and Beril, his co-star. They’re honestly so sweet and I love how wholesome their friendship is. Their chemistry and talent shouldn’t go to waste; I sincerely hope that they reunite it a hot digital project in the future, just like Boran and Miray did for HiLeon and HelSav. I want KaySun 2.0 to be better, too!

Also, Taro and Beril posting more photos just feels very genuine—and not just because my girl Beril is finally free. I also feel they’re trying to get us to continue to have hope for KaySun. Though I think they should demand a better plot too, but they’re too professional for that maybe.

I’ll definitely continue watching on the timeline, and I’ll root for Taro and Beril and KaySun happy ending always. But still! This is such clownery, and such new lows even from the most misogynistic production in diziland. I just pray they give us KaySun’s happy endgame.

Final Thoughts

Once again, I hate how OOC KaySun became, and I hope they fix this plot and make it so that what seemed to happen was not what really occurred. Wish they could be redeemable.

I pity Asuman…that guy is gonna blackmail her for money. (Also, Asuman would never sleep with a guy she just met. Wtf?)

I hate how the whole Yalı fcked eo during Ramadan except for KaySun. I don’t know why YÇ hates one of their most popular ships so much, but then again, it’s OGM. They hate women, logic, and happiness.

Binnur Kaya is a talented veteran actress, and I’m not surprised she is leaving, given how underutilized she was on the show. I hope we get a good final arc with Nunu and Kaya, but they barely fleshed out imo. (Why would she give her share to Orhan when he will steal it? 💀) I can’t blame the actress for departing, though Birsen did hint she is open to come back for S3.

I can’t believe I had to witness this during Lent. I have always been a good Catholic, but this show has made me turn to God and prayer more than ever. 🙏🏻

KaySun endgame, but at what cost?

Thanks for reading my thoughts. They may be muddled, but at least they were logical and slightly organized. 🧿🙏🏻