#I think one of my problems with Batman is that he really only operates on two levels

[angstandhappiness]

INTERESTING ADDITION

Lukewarm take, because there's already technically a comic run about it:

Thomas and Martha Wayne would've hated Bruce becoming Batman. Not just because they would hate him putting himself in danger every night, but because they were strong advocates of reform, and helping the people of Gotham in non-violent ways. They used their money for reform-- they were trying to fix up Park Row before they died-- and Thomas helped anyone and everyone he could, despite their backgrounds.

They would've hated that Bruce runs around punching people and then causing some of the worst villains to appear, and then doing the bare minimum to stop them.

They would hate it even more that He did it in their name.

and they would absolutely be horrified that he brought children into his war, and that he needs children to stop him from going too far.

TLDR: When Bruce meets Thomas and Martha in the afterlife, Martha slaps Bruce in the face, and Thomas just sighs and goes, "You remembered all of us wrong after we died."

[hijinxinprogress]

The JL finds out Captain Marvels identity and regrets it immensely

JL find out Captain Marvels a child and they start trying to parent him and just being awkward so it’s decided that Captain Marvel will join YJ (Clark started referring to Billy only as ‘son’ and ‘young man’ one time Billy saw an airplane and Clark leaned down and went “That there, son, is called an airplane and it-” “I’ll fucking stab you istg”)

To the public Captain Marvel is just extra supervision for YJ but the hero community knows it’s a way to discretely move Captain Marvel onto a team with people his age and be ‘safer’

But it doesn’t work out the way they want bc Billy’s a chaos gremlin much like YJ so they’re just doing dumb shit in the public eye bc they technically have ‘adult supervision’ (it takes Billy fifteen minutes to convince yj to go against being supervised by green lanterns)

“We’re literally your coworkers??” “I’ve literally never seen you before besides isn’t it illegal for cops to question a minor without their guardian present? 🤨” “Technically, he’s not their coworker bc he’s not in the jl anymore” “Kon” “What? I’m just saying!” “Stfu wait does Marvel even have a guardian??” “He doesn’t”

Anita and Billy are trading magic tips and teaching each other spells they should NOT have access to esp bc they’ve blown up thirteen city blocks and 1/4 of almost every planet they’ve visited with YJ

Cassie and Billy play high stakes games of catch above the earths atmosphere with missiles and shit in their free time and also during missions

Kon and Billy do just plain dumb shit they have no business doing and then playing up the ‘I’m just a baby…and I’m not even really human/I didn’t have a childhood so how would I know that I shouldn’t do that?’ excuse after bankrupting Luthor for the third time this month along with demolishing all of his newly renovated buildings (Which he and Greta repurposed to create low income housing and food pantries)

Cissie invites Marvel to all her Olympic events and he shows up to every single one with an obnoxiously large magical banner

Bart and Billy plan quips, one liners, and trash talk together and everyone hates it bc they only use the good ones on them but villains (along with everyone in their immediate vicinity) are subjected exclusively to shit like “nuh uh” and “make me”

Greta and Billy are taking down shady government operations with zero fucks to give (they had houses built for the people affected but they did also send a very long list of people to the hospital/morgue)

Billy makes Tim a magic skateboard that flies at like Mach 1 with so many magic cameras it’s concerning bc he thinks Tim being unhinged is funny especially it inconveniences or at least stresses out batman

But they’re mostly talking about what lies they’ve told the jl recently so they can plan their lies around each other “I lied to batman yesterday so you gotta back me up” and Tim’s fabricating evidence despite having no other information bc Billy will 100% “Aren’t you a so called ‘ethical’ billionaire? Nonono it’s whatever, I just thought you’d want to look out for the people but-”

And JL tries to lecture Billy about it ‘you should be more mature. I expected better’ and he’s just like ‘why?? I’m baby 🥺 I don’t know any better’ 

And Green Arrow’s so goddamn confused bc ‘Bro?? I’ve watched you do negotiations when Superman’s not available…’ ‘I’m just a little guy’ ‘I’VE WATCHED YOU STOP A WHOLE ASS INVASION IN TEN MINUTES’ ‘little baby man’ ‘But you’re one of the strongest members of the league???’ ‘You do know I couldn’t tie my own shoes like six years ago, right?’ ‘HOW OLD ARE YOU’ ‘Wouldn’t you like to know’

YJ and Billy just do a bunch of petty shit until JL has had enough and they’re like fine whatever it wasn’t a problem before

[eggplantwaffles]

i think a big problem with modern batfam comics is that they have so many characters that kinda just overlap- here’s my ideas for how to give each of them their own “niche” to make them unique. Some of this is canon or alluded to is some way- but a lot is just what i think makes sense for each character.

Bruce Wayne

Bruce retires, it’s the only way to give all his kids / kid adjacents their own chance to shine. i’m sure he grumbles about it and watches from the bat cave obsessively, but i’m the end he’s learned to trust the batfam and lets them take care of things.

Dick Grayson

I actually really like where Dick is at in comics right now, i mean it’s not perfect- but I like the idea of Nightwing being a “better” version of Batman for Blüdhaven. He leads the Titans, which are now on par pedigree wise with the Justice League, and as Dick Grayson he is an active member of the community in Blüdhaven, trying to use all his resources to help people. So basically not much changes here.

Barbara Gordon

This one’s easy, just make her Oracle all the time- in the most bad dads way possible. Give me paralyzed Barbara Gordon who has eyes and ears all over the world and is the center of ALL super hero activity. She leads the Birds of Prey, she’s in the ears of all the bats, she’s IT for the Justice League- she does all of it.

Jason Todd

I liked Jason’s character best when he serves as an antagonist. Jason goes back to being a crime lord, and we bring back his ideals of trying to control the crime as opposed to trying to stop it. Jason has good intentions, but he lacks the idealism of the other bats who are constantly trying to save the city without compromising any morals. I think that Jason often butts heads with Tim and Cass (mostly Cass due to her very strict no killing rule) but is mostly left alone by Steph and Damian, who are more willing to accept his methods even if they don’t love them.

Tim Drake

Tim should travel the world “conspiracy hunting,” kind of like how he took down the League of Assassins, except he probably chills out on the blowing up bases all around the world that might (definitely) have people inside. Tim is supposed to be the best detective of the Robins, so lean into that- I want globe trotting - mentally unwell - detective stories where Tim fights big secret organizations or takes down corrupt governments. He is also still apart of Young Justice, though they are all a bit older and are a less official group, the core four are still close and work together- they help keep Tim grounded and remember that he doesn’t have to do everything alone.

Stephanie Brown

I think Stephanie kind of separates herself from the batfamily after her time as Batgirl. I don’t mean that she give up fighting crime, or even gives up wearing the bat symbol, I just mean that she becomes a mostly solo act. Steph becomes Gothams main hero, she does normal vigilante stuff, patrolling the streets, saving the city, detective work, the typical bat stuff. But she’s far more connected to the people of Gotham than Batman ever was, stopping and talking to kids, handing out blankets to the homeless, doing cool flips and batarang trick shots for civilians passing by. Eventually she is the hero most Gothamites associate with their city, and she represents the good parts of Gotham- giving the people hope that they aren’t doomed to be consumed by the city, but that they will be stronger because of it. I also think that things are kinda awkward between her and the bats (except for Dick, Damian, and Barbara) and she tries to keep her distance a bit, considering she was kinda treated like shit as Spoiler and i think Steph deserves to be bitter about that, for a little bit at least.

Cass

Cass becomes Batman, but she operates globally. She’s not like early-Bruce batman who stayed in Gotham, she’s more similar to later batman. She’s in the league, she goes on funky missions to space or other dimensions sometimes, she fights the world ending threats that someone with no powers really should have no business fighting. She also works frequently with Tim and they do some fun little espionage stuff. And while she does return to Gotham, she’s mostly content to leave the city to Steph now- except for all the times she gets into fights with Jason, it bothers her that Steph rarely messes with his operation.

Damian

I really love the idea of Damian getting more into the magical part of DC, I think he should absolutely end up with a Justice League Dark team and learn to do cool magic shit. He goes on a training montage quest like Bruce did, except he’s learning all about magic and demons and cool stuff like that. He has cool magic swords and is sort of the connection between the more grounded part of the universe and the magic parts. He also does a fair bit of globe trotting, looking for ancient mystical artifacts or magical worlds and stuff like that.

Duke Thomas

Duke also mostly stays in Gotham, he’s kinda doing his own thing as The Signal- he still operates during the daytime meaning he doesn’t cross paths with Steph or Jason too often on patrol. There’s not much to change here because Duke is already unique in that he 1- operates during the day and 2- is the only meta-bat, so I don’t need to make a niche for him, DC just needs to use him more.

Random Stuff

- Duke is starting college and takes night classes at Gotham U, Steph is also still in college and is graduating soon

- Tim is either Red Robin, or operating under a new name (I think the Vulture or Condor would be kinda cool but idk)

- The Batfam does not get along like a real family, they are dramatic bitches who fight all the time and have cannot all be in the same room

- Damian and Steph are super close, she was the first person to insist on treating him like a child, which he hated but now that he’s older is grateful for (but he’ll never admit it)

- Damian also sees Dick as his father figure, Bruce is just kinda also there

- Bruce, Alfred, Damian, and Cass all live at the manor- but Damian and Cass are rarely there as they travel a lot and got shit to do

- Barbara lives in the clock tower, she technically lives alone but usually one of Cass, Dick, Dinah, or Helena will be crashing there

- Steph lives alone in the same house she grew up in, her Mom has moved to California or something for a fresh start as she is finally sober, but at this point Steph doesn’t need her. It’s very sad as Steph never truly had a mother, but she’s happy that Crystal is getting another chance away from Gotham.

- Duke swears he’s seen Jason at night classes at Gotham U, but Jason won’t admit it

- The only ones Jason talks to semi-frequently are Dick and Tim, the relationships are super rocky though. Dick sees Jason as his brother first, and since he’s in Blüdhaven he tries not to concern himself with Jason’s business. Tim and Jason do fight a bit but Tim is more lenient than Cass so he can tolerate Jason’s shit if he feels like it’s for the best.

[return-of-a-space-cowboy]

🧚‍♀️ Anon

I’m not sure about what to suggest for your 1,000 milestone, but I want to say congratulations!!

I’m rewatching Tim Burton Batman Movies and I thought to myself, what about JJBA as a Batman AU? (But maybe different versions of Batman besides Tim Burton to give more flavor and depth)

Jonathan, Joseph and Jotaro are Batman (They all fit as Batman and I honestly couldn’t pick one) and they’re siblings

Jonathan is 28, Joseph is 26 and Jotaro is 24 (He’s in college)

Jonathan - He donates to charity and holds charity balls to help the less fortunate while working with his pal Speedwagon to make the streets better (He’s the eldest and handles the Joestar Family Company)

Joseph - The Playboy of the brothers and flirts with different women, he hangs out with his friend Caesar a detective, he’ll get serious under the mask but will mostly stay behind to keep appearances with the Public

Jotaro - The stoic and serious one of the three and is currently the only one who’s still doing school (He’s the youngest) and is friends with Kakyoin who’s an Art Major at the University they go to

Giorno, Josuke and Jolyne can fit as the Robins and Batgirl (I refuse to see how this wouldn’t work) but they’re mainly young teenagers to kid (Josuke

I’m still working on the Villains’ list but this is what I have so far

Dio/DIO - Joker (But he knows how to stay in the Shadows and hide) and his partner is Pucci who’s his Harley Quinn (I actually keep forgetting Dio is canonically Bisexual 😭)

Kars - Poison Ivy and Ra’s la Ghul (It was the earth that birthed him) and has no problem killing millions, half or all of Humanity for the planet (He also looks very cunty already)

Wammu - Bane (This works because he ‘breaks’ the Bat *Joseph*) but he’s intelligent and not an idiot (I actually rage whenever there’s versions of Bane that are unintelligent) he still has a code of honor in battle or course

Diavolo/Doppio - Two-Face (Doppio being a lawyer does sound interesting to me, but he’s seen as a joke by his fellow lawyers because he’s clumsy and timid, until his accident) Doppio and Diavolo share the same body, with one side of their Face Doppio and the other a disfigured Diavolo (Because Diavolo is the evil one) and now they’re the most dangerous Mobster out there with Passione

Darling is either a Therapist who works at the Asylum for the Criminally Insane (No she will not become Harley Quinn) or a Reporter and Photographer who thinks the Caped Crusaders are Heroes to her City instead of Threats (She’ll work with Caesar as his partner)

There’s more but I’m trying to figure out who fits where and it’s actually very fun for this AU

Ooh batman, I do love the Tim Burton adaptation, his style in my opinion really gives Gotham a stand out feel. Big fan of Tim Burton's older works. Though I do feel his modern works have lost the German impressionist roots that really drew me into his work (can you tell that I did a Tim Burton analysis for a whole semester in art class?)

Darling is a psychologist that works at the asylum and knows all three Joestars. She's very bold and speaks her mind. Both complimenting and criticizing those she speaks to.

Jonathan visits the asylum often as he wants to help reform the justice system and as one of their biggest funders it's his right to know how they are conducting their operations as well as a secret second thing...

He usually offers darling invitations to any galas as she's a huge help to him.

Joesph is a university friend of hers, they both studied criminology. Though it was Joesph's major. He has tried to ask her out but due to his playboy status she is quick to remind him that they maybe close but she doesn't believe he's serious about a relationship. (At most it'd be a secret friend's with benefits relationship)

Jotaro like his brother also chose criminology, though his major is Marine ecology. Occasionally daling comes in to help her former teacher as a guest presenter and perhaps through her was able to get an internship at the asylum.

He probably ends up going through and copying all her work files to share with the other two.

She's at this point the only one equipped enough to deal with the high risk inmates. Of course they all have specialized cells to keep them in.

Dio was adopted into the Joestar family at the age of 12 and was set to be another successful member of the Joestar family before George's death. He was found guilty of murdering him as well as planning to kill Jonathan so he could get his hands on the inheritance. Of course in the asylum he tries to gain the empathy of others with half truths. Doesn't work on darling, it's technically a conflict of interest due to her association with the Joestars but she's the only one who can work with him. She knows the other side of the story. She also knows Jonathan also visits him during his inspections and is trying his best to reason with Dio.

As she puts it

"You were set for success, you had the money, the intellect and the looks but like Icarus you flew to close to the sun"

He likes the challenge darling presents, most would have fallen head over heels for him. He just wants to get in that pretty little head of hers. He's already planned his escape with the asylum priest Pucci, who he's already charmed.

Kars was prolific scientist in the bio engineering field before his DNA was was spliced with an unknown material. He's gone mad, claims he's the apex being and that humans are destroying the natural order.

She doesn't really get anywhere with him at first. But when Wammu and Saitana (who I imagine could be clayface) got incarcerated, darling finds out they're cousins. Kars actually cared for them when they were younger but they became estranged as adults due to their careers. She brings it up and it strikes a cord. Gets him to finally start talking. He realizes that darling is a good person, just very misguided in his eyes. Perhaps he could get her to realize the truth.

Wammu was an athlete, always pushed his body to the limits and so when his body began to fail him he began relying on steroids to keep him competing. Eventually that was not enough and he underwent a experimental treatment that worked a little too well. He needs to be in a mostly metal cell in the basement as he could've easily punched through a brick wall. Even now he seems to only be getting stronger, soon steel won't be enough. The staff decide to sedate him to keep him in check. Even a specialized diet to avoid anymore muscle development.

Despite being sedated he's still awake just not entirely there. Darling does still visit him and talks. She also informs him that Kars is there and relays conversations between the two as it's giving her a lot of insight.

Doppio's life was changed when the priest who adopted him was murdered and home was set on fire. He wanted to become a lawyer to bring justice to those who who ruined the lives of the less fortunate. Little did he know the one who had ruined his was himself.

No one really took him seriously, he seemed way to soft to be in that position. Even though he was the top of his classes at university. He is hopelessly clumsy, dropping documents or tripping over himself. However during one trial he was able to put a major crime lord behind bars and it felt like he was finally getting somewhere... until one of his subordinates caught him and pushed half his face into acid.

That was when he became aware of his other, darker half. Who managed to break out of his binds and kill the perpetrator. He was let go as it was self defense but Doppio was no longer the same, two people now fully aware of one another in a shared body.

After a string of crimes he was brought in and darling was assigned to him.

Doppio is very understanding and soft spoken, and thus darling offers him the same. He knows why and has no objections to being imprisoned.

Diavolo is more cold but is prone to outbursts. Doppio is always his greatest concern and know that he has a crush on their cute psychologist and he promise him he'll get her, he promises.

[rontra]

who The Fuck is manhunter

god this is such a good question. who the fuck IS manhunter. well okay so let me pose a counter-question. what if women sucked and were not fun to hang out with. do we still support their wrongs?

no okay (visibly trying not to laugh) heres the girlcrush of the day. she's got what ive jokingly called "bull-in-a-china-shop lifestyle". her name is kate she's a famous federal prosecutor who specializes in prosecuting supervillains. and brother she loves pushing for the death penalty. one day when she was pushing so so hard for the death penalty, the jury did not go for it. and she got so so so mad that she decided to go find and kill the guy herself

and she liked it.

so she blackmails some guy in the witness protection program into being her gadget guy & from then on she's the vigilante "manhunter" (yay!) who kills bad guys she thinks deserve it. when she's out there she's basically operating on a completely circular logic that goes like "well if i can't kill this villain here, i'll simply get him the death penalty in court (which i'm very good at), and if that falls through, i'll just go back to Plan A (killing him with my own hands)" and it's like girl i think you just kind of Like Killing. good luck with that

it's like what if batman not only loved killing and jumped directly to it every time, but was also working With & Inside the system at the same time to ensure there is no other way for things to end. that's a weird thing to do, right? girl? this is weird?...

& like MAYBE in 2004 america this setup was written to appeal to a certain type of reader who'd go "yeah girl the System never gives the bad guys what they Deserve lets fucking go #justice" . i couldn't really tell you to be honest (and her murder mettle is proven entirely in scenarios that are like "well maybe she's morally in the clear here because the guy in question is a cartoon snake-man who eats people") (to me personally, on its face, this all reads like the origin story for a supervillain lawyer named Death Row or something. but that's just another part of her womanly charm in my eyes.) what i CAN tell you is that deciding to become a coldblooded premeditated killer in her spare time is Really cutting into both her professional and private life and now her ex-husband is suing for full custody of their son

oh yeah. she has a son and she is like a deadbeat mother she never shows up on time she forgets to pick him up and he hates going to her house when it's her weekend she is NOT doing a good job on this one. figuring out how to actually mom this kid is also kind of a thing for her and she DOES figure it out but i have to tell you. her Divorced Milf Who Totally Sucks appeal. VERY High

man. yeah she's always getting her shit pushed in during fights because She Is Just A Lawyer but she just like Walks it off (girl...). she's addicted to nicotine in a major way. she's cold and cranky and would not be fun to hang out with. she's terrible at banter. she actually sucks to the point it makes me feel Bad for her ex-husband who has to keep hounding her like "don't forget to pick up our SON" it's kind of a feat to be honest. she just sort of is charging blindly into things and wrecking her life because she has a chip on her shoulder and Maybe Enjoys Killing but at least she's also got a certain failgirl swag about it

there is a major theme of like, legacy, but crucially (and most interestingly, imo) most of the time kate is completely ignorant of said legacies existing around her while she's stomping through the porcelain with her hooves until they rear up to bite her directly in the ass, which i enjoy very much. she is very much focused on her own thing and consumed by her own motivations and does not really give a shit about these things and it's a major issue every time. even "manhunter" itself is a name that's been used by multiple dc characters (sometimes simultaneously) (including a whole cult), which suddenly becomes a problem for her when someone starts murdering all the other manhunters until she's the only one left standing. uh oh! i was just doing my own thing and thought the name sounded cool! noooo!

there's also the very pointed matter of her gear which is all "borrowed" from just like. the lockup. (girl...) so she's wearing someone else's suit and someone else's gauntlets and using someone else's weapon (actually one of the previous manhunters! there's that manhunter lineage again!) and while the audience is treated to a whole issue elaborating on the backstories of these things, kate herself is completely unaware and uninterested in the significance and legacy of these hand-me-downs because she picked them out at complete random to go do premeditated killing. it's really underscored in an interesting way how much she just is kind of bulldozing straight through everything--whether it's her own life or her proverbial predecessors--towards her own ends

the whole lineage and legacy thing is something of a Theme i guess. especially when it turns out her own biological father is an absolute sicko with a murder charge and he's on his way right now to bulldoze her life for his own ends. that's funny. maybe she's got that serial killer gene from riverdale,

jokes aside i would give her a 10/10 failwife cringemilf rating, with ample extra points awarded for being divorced, for the broken ribs, and for how much i would hate hanging out with her if she were real. this is a certified manhunter post. i hope you enjoyed it.

(reading manhunter 2004 and shaking my head sternly the whole time but also smiling. so people know i don't support the death penalty but i Do support women's wrongs)

[de-vespertiliones]

Can I ask why you don't like RHaTO 2016? I started it solely because the scene of Jason and Bizarro talking on the floor on the first issues did things to my heart the one time I saw a panel of it, but I didn't get much farther. And I like how you talk bout issues

Oh, thank you for the compliment! Apologies for this taking so long. I had to reflect a bit. (For what it's worth, the scene you're referring to is one of my favorite scenes in RHatO and some of the best writing in the entire run).

Some caveats:

I like reading serialized comics, but I'm unpracticed in the art of reading serialized comics, so my structural analyses come largely from analyzing other forms of writing (mostly novels, some TV & film). This means that I might be expressing critiques that are not entirely fair given the nature of the medium.

I read the entire run in a couple sittings last September, so these are generally remembered vibes and not nuanced analysis. I'm open to correction if I've misremembered something.

I actually don't dislike all of RHatO 2016, even though I do strongly dislike some of the canon introduced (this canon is discussed in points 5-6, and thus contains spoilers)

Also, for brevity's sake (ha!), "RHatO" refers to the 2016 version; if I mean RHatO 2011 I'll indicate that.

Anyway, my problems with the run (cut for length):

RHatO doesn't know who Jason is. This is not a "RHatO!Jason isn't who I think Jason should be" critique (though I certainly feel some element of that as well) but rather a "Lobdell cannot decide the basics of who his version of Jason Todd is as a character." In a different run that went through the hands of multiple writers, I'd find this far more forgivable, but barring the tail end of the run, Lobdell is the sole author. Jason is by turns incredibly clever and incredibly stupid in ways that felt contradictory. I had very little sense of what he valued or cared about. Sometimes he expresses great empathy and sometimes he's bafflingly self-absorbed and the only thing that seems to determine these behaviors is what's most convenient for the plot. Don't get me wrong: there are Jason moments in RHatO that I absolutely love, but they're balanced by Jason moments that utterly confound me because I don't understand how this is the same person.

It's not an ensemble book but it's pretending to be an ensemble book. This is a fundamental issue with every iteration of RHatO (including the webtoon) because no iteration of RHatO is written as an ensemble book--Jason is always the main character. RHatO also sort of sets itself up for failure in that regard--Artemis and Bizarro are far less well-known characters with less history than Jason and would require more investment and buildup on Lobdell's part to make them more than just props, but Lobdell doesn't put in the work. Even arcs that ostensibly center Artemis or Bizarro end up feeling flat, especially because so often they operate in service to Jason, The Main Character. (Incidentally, the point when I found Artemis & Bizarro most compelling was when they were separated from Jason and allowed room to breathe and exist).

The emotional core of the story, insomuch as there is one, is between Bruce and Jason and it really, really shouldn't be. Don't get me wrong, I would read a million issues of Jason and Bruce being completely, wretchedly awful to each other, but because the emotional core lies between Bruce and Jason, and also because RHatO is trying to be an ensemble book, and also because Lobdell is very uninterested in crafting a story around an alternate emotional core, whenever the story isn't about Bruce and Jason (which is most of the time) it flounders. I'd say that's fine if Lobdell just wanted to write a fun, dumb adventure book, but the Bruce and Jason bits are too present to ignore, making the whole thing feel very off-kilter.

From a team perspective, I don't understand what Jason adds. The whole run is sold as a "dark trinity," but the role Batman plays in the Wonder Woman-Superman-Batman trinity and the role Jason plays in the Artemis-Bizarro-Red Hood trinity isn't really the same? I feel like I'm supposed think Jason deserves his place on the team because he's The Main Character, but even from a very mechanical powers and abilities perspective I don't get what he's doing there. He's not particularly clever or strategic. He doesn't have the resources Batman does. He's not the brains, especially because later arcs give that role to someone else. If I had to assign him a role I'd say he's the "heart," whatever that means, but I also fundamentally don't buy Artemis and Jason as a team or companions and would argue that Bizarro serves as the "heart" (as well as the brawn) most of the time.

(This section contains spoilers) RHatO introduces the stupidest plot threads and then proceeds to do nothing with them. Willis Todd is alive, for reasons. He's Wingman, who's just randomly part of Batwoman's Bat-Team, for reasons. He's Faye Gunn's son, making Jason Faye Gunn's grandson, for reasons. None of this has any real bearing on the plot but it does create a lot of problems for Jason's canon backstory, whatever it is at this point in time.

(This section contains spoilers) Which also, the fact that it opens with conflict with Black Mask, one of the few rogues Jason has had extensive conflict with as Red Hood, creates a nightmare of what's in continuity and what isn't. My understanding is that UtRH is in continuity, which makes literally everything about the opening act not only nonsensical, but actively confusing.

This is less a critique of the series itself, but worth noting: I generally disagree with how people rec the first half of the run (i.e. the run with Bizarro and Artemis) and not the last half of the run (the Red Hood: Outlaw part). I read the series in trade format so I don't have the issues on hand, but I think RH:O vol. 2 is way more enjoyable (at least when it comes to Jason content) than the middle sections of RHatO.

So I guess I have problems with consistency, character work, storytelling choices, and ensemble writing. I don't with it's a worthless run per se; it's certainly better than other Jason-centric stories, and I love Dexter Soy's art about as much as I dislike Kenneth Rocafort's, so that's definitely a bonus for (early) RHatO 2016. I also don't think Lobdell is a completely incompetent writer, necessarily; he's just lazy, and incurious, and generally kind of a hack, which in some ways makes it worse.

I also don't think anyone is wrong to like either version of RHatO. I am a very brittle reader with specific wants & desires from comics that are usually only ever met by accident. So, obviously, take all this with an amount of salt anywhere between a shaker and a mine.

[boanddonatetoblacktranspeople]

Im Sending Out the Bat-Signal I Am Flicking the Switch Off and On: When Has Bruce *ACTUALLY* Said ‘No Metas in Gotham’?

Ok, so I’ve recently fallen down a bit of a comic book superheroes rabbit hole of hyperfixation, you know, as you do, and one of the things I’ve learned about Batman via Tumblr and fandom and such is: No Metas in Gotham! So here is the problem: I’m not an avid DC reader, I’m gleaning all my official info from things like Wikis, and I have seen NOTHING on them about Batman having any kind of official rules against meta operating in Gotham. None whatsoever. In fact, the only place I see the rule discussed is on AO3 and Tumblr. Beyond that, Google searches are filled with arguments about if Batman *IS* a metahuman himself. And it is a little weird, right, what with him having Duke Thomas on the Batfamily team, a known metahuman.  QUERY: Is there an OFFICIAL SOURCE for Batman’s/ Bruce Wayne’s ‘No Metas in Gotham’ rule, either explicitly OR implied?

This also leads me to a fun hypothetical set-up: One night on patrol Batman catches a metahuman villain who usually operates outside of Gotham but happens to be in Gotham causing chaos, and after disarming them on a public street, picks them up by the collar and growls- “I don’t want you in my city.”

And suddenly the next day the papers are full of articles doing a game of telephone/misinterpretation- “Batman HATES Metahumans??” “Batman Setting Rules Against Metas in Gotham City???” And Bruce just sighs as he reads the headlines over breakfast because, shit, yea, usually he likes to keep the big superpowered fights out of Gotham because, well, old city with struggling infrastructure.

Cue Batman leading the other Justice League members on a mission in Gotham and they FREEZE at the city limits and Bruce just turns around, like, “What?”, and Clark cocks an eyebrow and says “Do we have permission to enter ‘your’ city?” and Bruce just mutters “Oh for the love of god”

Bruce has to reassure Duke that ‘yes, I want you on the team, yes, you can use your powers if you’re careful’, and makes sure he knows he’s free to be in Gotham.

Bruce is able to rehabilitate one of his superpowered rogues gallery members and they’re just like, “Uh, does this mean I need to leave the city, then? Because my meemaw’s been living in this part of Jersey going back to when Gotham was founded,” and Batman rubs his temple behind his cowl and thinks, “Ok I really need to talk to Gordon about clearing this up”

[zahri-melitor]

New(ish) Comics: Gotham War Edition

So I’m doing this hey. Going to read a few lead ins I haven’t got to yet then dive in.

Batman #136: Tim is baby here. Bruce is…not doing well. The set up for this conflict is actually reasonably entertaining (aka ‘both Bruce and Selina have been keeping secrets that are causing problems’, the scale of which really pisses off the other). Gosh, that family scene is very much calculated to be circulated as a panel out of context, and I’m wondering if it’s real at all.

I am NOT going to advocate that Bruce needs therapy (folks. FOLKS. The therapy Bruce has had previously has got us into this mess) but I am going to point and laugh at his mental state a lot.

Knight Terrors Batman #1-2: I’m on record as disliking the whole Zur-En-Arrh mythos but at least this storyline is actually revisiting all aspects of it? We got the sensory deprivation tank back. Apparently me reading the entirety of the Black Casebook was actually worth it for something. Golly, this nightmare is so BORING. It’s literally ticking the boxes – lack of control, everyone is dead, replay of Crime Alley, etc. The Gun-Bat (gun-bat. GUN-BAT. ffs) just isn’t convincingly scary. The only interesting twist at ALL was Bruce getting to play as Joe Chill for a bit.

The Arsenal backup – seriously the lack of creativity in everyone’s nightmares SHOWS. Not being able to use the Cry isn’t a nightmare for Dinah, it’s something she understands intimately and knows how to work around. (“Nobody listens to me” is slightly better but also if you just pop your earrings back in Dinah, I am SURE Babs would be happy to go back to obsessively stalking you and being available to talk at any or all hours) Roy being beset by the events of 2010 to present and accompanying costumes is at least meta but it’s still ‘I miss Lian’ (we know, we know, you already lived through your nightmare).

Batman/Catwoman The Gotham War – Battle Lines #1: Maxie Zeus my sweetie!!! Oh wait I’m supposed to care about everything else here, but the fact it’s Tim kicking around Maxie is very satisfying. Love to see Robins against their own period rogues (one of Tim’s first proper times working with Oracle was a Maxie Zeus case).

Okay fine, whatever, Selina’s pitch for how to stop violent crime in Gotham. It’s incredibly silly, as has been widely canvassed, and ignores basic common sense questions like ‘what happens when security increases’, ‘what happens when you run out of these low risk high value targets’, ‘who is fencing all this and how is the increased black market bearing the weight of a higher flow of goods without dropping prices too far’ and ‘how is the entire room of detectives who’ve been operating in Gotham unaware of any changes in crime levels’. The whole club scene is just clearly here to start fracturing the family (yay!).

Wow I hate this version of Montoya I hate it so much, this is so jarring after just having read Gotham Central.

Anyway Selina is getting handed the idiot ball hard here, which is unfortunate, given this issue literally goes ‘here’s the clear point you’ve ignored’ as the last few pages.

Batman #137: Vandal Savage causing problems on purpose! LOVE YOU SAVAGE. (He’s so annoying. Nice to have him as a change to Ra’s) So battle lines are drawn up with Jason in Selina’s camp, Damian in Bruce’s and the rest of them currently in the centre trying to work things out. I still think everyone is being a bit helpless due to this storyline, but we’ll see how it develops.

Catwoman #57: Ehhhhhhh. Jason is weirdly excited about jacking cars here? This is trying SO HARD to position the whole conflict on a classism front and it just doesn’t work for me. “We can just solve financial inequality by Robin Hooding!” uh it doesn’t quite work that way folks. You know what also helps get people out of poverty? Education, healthcare and steady jobs that AREN’T likely to land people in the prison system. Yes also a cash injection can help but your whole training is oriented at continuing to acquire money by criming.

Dick dropping by to go ‘hey do you realise you’re being an idiot? Think about it, Selina’ was cute though.

HELLO SCANDAL PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE HAVE A DECENT VERSION OF YOUR PERSONALITY. YOU ARE ALWAYS FUN.

Batman/Catwoman: the Gotham War - Red Hood #1: (the name goes on a bit hey) Can’t believe I’m reading a Red Hood tie in.

It’s pretty ridiculous, but at least Jason is aware this plan is goddamn stupid and is just exploiting it for his own ends?

Ah and there we go, people using guns when they shouldn’t, aka the whole self-defeating part of this whole scenario.

Okay. About to start Batman #138 but will pop that in a separate post with even more spoiler warnings.

[havendance]

I think it’s time to revisit the reverse robins AU. Namely, it’s time to address Damian. Only to address Damian, first we have to talk about Knightfall. I promise this’ll tie back in.

So Batman: Knightfall. The key thing about Knightfall in this AU is the fact that Jason and Tim are two different people. Tim bought into Batman and Robin as an idea, Jason stumbled into becoming Robin and may or may not be blackmailing Batman. He really isn’t sure anymore. Regardless, when Bruce rolls up and is like ‘hey, I found this ex-brainwashed assassin, could you show him the ropes’, Jason is like ‘no wtf, that’s not my job’. And then we’ve got the Bane-gauntlet, back-breaking etc etc.

Rather than accept that Bruce is going to make him work with random ex-brainwashed assassin dude (and seriously, Bruce, this is not what he signed up for), Jason gives Steph a call and is like ‘hey, you said that I could ask you for help if I needed it. Can you talk some sense into Bruce, he’s being an idiot?’ and Steph, who is in the middle of the Titans imploding is like ‘yeah, why not’. Basically we just skip Knightquest and Knightsend and go straight to prodigal. (Idk how Bruce gets his back magi-cured, it’s not important). Steph is not Batman. For one thing, Bruce has about a foot and least a hundred pounds on her, for another, why should she have to pretend to be a dude to kick ass? Steph is the first Batwoman and her and Jason kick ass together and take on Bane and just have a rocking good time while Bruce is doing who know’s what.

But back to Damian. Damian gets to stay the same in this AU. 

Let’s recap where we left off: Stephanie Brown is operating as the Spoiler, primarily in Gotham, and working with the Titans as her side-gig. Tim Drake just came back as the Joker 2.0 and is living it up in his villain era. Jason’s mom died due to long-term health problems and he was adopted by Bruce. Dick recently got de-talonized and is now running around as Nightwing. Which means it’s not time for Bruce’s surprise kid with Talia to show up. He does his thing and oh no, Bruce just died. 

So look, Steph is trying to hold things together. She’s trying to hold Gotham together, she’s trying to look after Bruce’s legacy (because for all that their relationship was rocky, she did love and respect him), she’s trying to look after Bruce’s kid. She fumbled things with Jason during the whole mess that went down and now he’s off, convinced that Bruce is still alive out there and, hmmm, let’s say he took Barbara Gordon, fresh off of her widely-hated evil-arc, with him, because I think it would be fun.

So now Steph is Batman and it’s different from the last time she wore the Bat. Last time Bruce was still alive, last time she was doing it on her terms. But now, Bruce is dead and she’s pretending that she’s actually him and he isn’t and she’s isn’t sure if anyone believes it, but it feels important, okay?

Ummm, I’m running out of juice here. Anyway, Damian is Steph’s Batkid first and she teaches him to drink respect-women juice and gets him to stop killing as much and relax and be a kid a little more. And he also hangs out with Nightwing who’s like the cool, chill older brother and he insults Nightwing’s fashion taste (because it’s the discowing suit) and Nightwing teases him right back (because Steph said that the pink was traditional and he wasn’t getting out of it) and the get along and it’s great :)

[roobylavender]

omg can you expand on the “and yeah ultimately a lot of the crux of the issue comes down to jason. he's never going to be a sibling to any of these people and i honestly think it's fine like he doesn't have to be” i never really saw him as a sibling to the other bats, sans my personal interest in his relationship w dick but ridiculously enough it never actually occurred to me that he really isn’t a sibling to them

i like to think of jason as the fulcrum of the entire batman canon. like eeeeeverything about the canon shifted in response to his death and it's not to say the post-crisis editorial mandate didn't already begin to contribute to that new balance in characterization and tone but jason's death certainly cemented the path going forward. his entry opened the flood gates to expanding the integral batman unit beyond its initial members—and i say this strictly with respect to the familial unit. obv every super gained friends over the course of their tenure and people like barbara would be included in that here—and his death and tim's subsequent induction cemented that this trend would endlessly continue because of course there can be no batman without robin, of course dc can't lose its primary marketing strategy for the character, of course no one wants to read about batman if robin isn't there! to me the psychological emotional connection everyone developed with jason thereafter (regardless of how attenuated it was) was a direct product of that. on one hand the implications of his death were obv enormous and could not merely be swept under the rug and moved on from so everyone necessarily had to deal with it. on the other hand this led to everyone dealing with it to the extent that it was permanently made their problem. like it's not to say his death didn't have ramifications for all of them as vigilantes continuing to operate largely at bruce's initial behest but simultaneously i don't think everyone necessarily needed to be as involved as they were portrayed to be and esp in the long term. tying everything about the batman canon thereafter to this perpetual guilt on bruce's behalf and then repeatedly taking it to its conclusion with every subsequent protege he took on was like overkill and it collectively made separating jason from the family impossible. treating him like a real sibling to everyone else was a character regression not only with respect to himself but with respect to them. it hindered the extent to which the individual conflicts they brought to the canon could be explored and made everyone's acceptance and/or truce with jason into a goal when it never really needed to be. a slightly altered under the hood should have been the end of it and at best they should've crossed paths with him on the occasional night patrol

[fifteenblackcats]

Okay so I recently watched this tik tok about Jason Todd that had some great points about his character. The main thing that interested me was the fact that the person in the video pointed out that Jason feels like a fan fic character. As someone who loves the character and has read all of his comic series, I have to agree.

Tbh it’s not usually the fault of Jason’s character that he feels like a fan fic character, that’s more Dc’s fault. Like when it comes to his own series, they usually don’t have the best writing and can’t really compete with other bat family comic series. Personally I love all of his series, even the New 52 Outlaws series (which I know is a controversial opinion lol), but overall when I recommend Jason’s comics to my friends, I have to literally warn them that the overall writing isn’t good. The only comics of his that I can say that are genuinely good are the Task Force Z comic he was in and the short story from Urban Legends. Basically anything written by anyone besides Scott Lobdell. I personally mainly read Jason Todd comics for his character rather than the quality of the writing.

Back to Dc’s treatment of Jason Todd. I swear I love Dc, but they fuck up their canon so much. Which includes why I think Jason feels like a fan fic character when he really doesn’t have to. A lot of it is tied to Dc’s continuity issues. Personally I don’t have a problem with the fact that two of his friends, Starfire and Roy Harper, are originally Dick Grayson’s friends. I understand why some people may have a problem with it, but in my opinion characters don’t always have to be tied down to friendships with one character for the sake of canon. My main example is how he is a part of the Bat Family. Jason of course will always be Bruce’s son, so in that way it makes sense that he’s with the Bat Family. But with everything else it just doesn’t make sense. Mainly Jason’s morals once he comes back from the dead. He is completely fine with killing criminals, which is why it is very contradictory that Batman would let Jason be a part of the Bat Family. Bruce is very stubborn and very strict about his moral code, so it really doesn’t make sense that he would let Jason operate with the rest of the Bat Family. It’s kinda this reason that I have to say that he feels like a fan fic character. I know that Bruce gets in fights (physical fights too) with Jason about the killing, but Jason in many Bat Family stories is still included in many of the Bat Family comm channels and many Bat Family events. Again I love Jason, but it would really make more sense for his character to be an anti hero who keeps to himself. Technically he does this, but since he’s such a fan beloved character DC always includes him in the Bat Family, even when it doesn’t really make sense for Bruce or Jason.

In recent years since Rebirth, Dc has tried to make canon make sense as to why Jason should be with the Bat Family. Jason’s moral code is slowly changing to being less lethal by using rubber bullets instead of real bullets. So far I guess this works? At least he’s not killing as much anymore, but his morals haven’t really changed. At least in my opinion. It seemed like he mainly agreed to use rubber bullets to stay in Gotham, otherwise Bruce would kick him out of the city. Tbh this seems like a temporary solution to a large issues relating to Jason’s character. He of course can stay an anti hero that kills, but then I think it doesn’t make sense for Jason to be a part of the Bat Family where everyone has a similar moral code to Batman (expect for maybe Kate Kane, but even then it seems like it is very rare for her to decide to kill). Either Dc should create a real character arc to show why Jason wouldn’t want to kill anymore or just separate him completely from the Bat Family. Maybe they could have him be a main vigilante in another nearby city, like how Nightwing is for Bludhaven. Otherwise it does kinda seem like fan fic because it doesn’t really make sense for Jason to work with the Bat Family so closely. Besides the aesthetic of Jason be the edgy anti hero of the Bat Family.

Anyways those are just my thoughts and you don’t have to agree of course. As someone who loves his character, I don’t exactly like saying he feels like a fan fic character, but his poorly written comics (which I still love, but I can be honest with myself) and convenient place with the Bat Family in canon make me feel like he can give fan fic vibes.

Anyways here’s the video that inspired my post:

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTRsDGw1R/

[yvtro]

https://at.tumblr.com/scintillyyy/ah-thank-you-for-the-correction-you-are-correct/nwppbs9d8f1g

That whole thread really highlight how lonely Jason's Robin run was. Honestly it makes me sad how he didn't have many friends back then compare to others. He had Eddie but even then dc forget about them.

i don't really agree with lots of points in this thread, mainly because of tim exceptionalism (or the main character complex, whatever you want to call it) + it assumes that things that happened pretty much only because of jason's death would still occur.

having said so, i do agree that jason's robin run was (in a way) incredibly lonely!

now, personally i don't think that jason noticed it much, but that's part of the problem. i have touched upon it briefly in my other posts about vigilante/civilian identity (look: here, for example), and i think it's worth to make a quick comparison of pre-crisis vs post-crisis jay.

so, tldr, pre-crisis jason is shown to have a whole life at school, he has friends and even a romantic interest. post-crisis jason has none of that. we see him working for an extra credit at school, but if i recall it right (might have been a pre-crisis story retroactively included in canon though) the only time we actually see him *in* school is when he thinks about how he would like to join the theatre but doesn’t have time for that because of robin responsibilities. we don’t see him having any social life outside of robin, but also as a member of the community he doesn’t have anyone close his age. his cameo in titans is very dear to me, and you know, as a person with siblings i will tell you, you can absolutely be friends with your older brother’s friends, but we don’t ever see him developing a lasting bond with any of them (which is also because he died quite soon after that. i’m not saying that donna, for example, didn’t care about him, but i don’t think they had a chance to grow very close).

there's eddie, sure, but even that relationship is that of penpals, and by the time jason comes back from the dead, eddie is completely retconned, so it's safe to assume that in the current continuity they have never known each other at all.

i'm not going to comment on dc trying to sell the concept of roy and jay being childhood friends in n52.

so i’m thinking, you can make an argument about how jason knows little besides vigilantism, but i believe there’s an additional layer to how even his “nightlife” (debatable term btw, we see robin jay operating in daylight along with batman all the time but i guess that was a whole another era) focuses pretty much on bruce and no one else. he really doesn’t know much beyond batman and robin.

and it obviously wasn't really the writers' intention, i bet it's mostly the result of the fact that they weren't really interested in exploring his character much, but jay's world is so very narrow and centres around bruce. and i can see how bruce wouldn't really see any problem in it at first, because (while it's not really canon, as there's a time skip and we don't even get to see how he settles into the manor, nor much of his training period) it is safe to assume that it took some time for jay to gain bruce's trust and to get used to a role of a child (since he was used to fending for himself/presumably being briefly a caretaker for his mother before). so when the kid finally learns that he can depend on bruce and actively seeks him out, that's great. it took so much to coax him into allowing to be cared for, now the issue is solved. (wrong.)

i think it really puts post-resurrection jay's mentality in perspective (even if winick did not intend it this way; he clearly had no interest in jay's 80s characterisation). of course jason's anger, disappointment, and feelings of betrayal focus on bruce; bruce was everything he had. at this stage, he doesn't know much beside him, and being robin.

and i don't think that jason then was quite aware that he was lonely. he had his dad, which was the most important thing for him for a while, he had alfred. dick might not have been home much, but their interactions we got to see were meaningful, and flashbacks (such as the famous ski trip) suggest that they did spend more time together. babs was around. he probably made so many brief connections with gothamites in his time as robin too.

it all becomes a problem when jason grows. when he can't see a line between being a robin and a son, and looks for another parental figure, and he doesn't have anyone to talk to about it. everyone he has a lasting relationship with is part of the family that he worries he doesn't belong to, so he just resolves to find someone new to depend on.

it becomes a problem when he digs himself out of grave, and later comes back to gotham, and there's such a limited number of people he can (or could, if he wanted) turn to.

i also believe that even if the plot of 'a death in the family' never occured, the fact that he went from a hyper-independent parentified child to someone who spends most of his time with his dad or alone (and i don't think he minded alone time all that much at first) would backfire otherwise. i'm joking, but at this point there probably would be some separation anxiety, on both sides.

i just wish i could grip jay with bbq tongs and put him in east gotham to allow him to stay in touch with his community. of course he probably was around there as robin a lot, but as a civilian? i doubt it.

[deafeninggardenerpanda]

yamikage x arthur? :> (or if you want to rant, m/etak/irby?)

AYO shoutout to the like two people who ship this I SEE YOU QUANBLOVK respect

i know i just said id probably write something cute and fluffy but this ship is deeply hilarious to me as a concept. its divorce the ship. theyd be so ♠️♠️♠️♠️♠️ if that makes sense to certain people. i want them to constantly fume about each other in the same way where it can be interpreted as theyre the only thing the other person ever thinks about and yet if they were to ever finally get rid of the other they would feel sort of empty in their life. detective x master thief vibes. b. batman x joker even???????? anyways they should try to kill each other and then kiss

putting the me//takir//by one under the cut HAHAH THANKS FOR THE BITEY EXCUSE EVEN THOUGH YOUVE ALREADY HEARD MY TANGENTS LOGAN ILY /P /AFF

you know i know i Also just said that i would give people a very long very angry tangent but i think this one from a fandom perspective is very fascinating. in terms of the jp fandom in which we all know its the most popular ship by Miles i personally just try to turn my head and give them more benefit of the doubt due to cultural differences regarding views on fictional content and like. while its gross if they ship something weird i think theres something to be said about westerners trying to enforce their own views regarding purity onto other cultures does that make sense. thats just their own problem they need to work out and so im not gonna Inherently think someones an awful person for shipping me//takirby (unless its anime me//takirby or some shit obviously. take this whole paragraph as me operating under the assumption that theyre using game me//takirby. if anyone ships anime me//takirby im just killing you)

in terms of the western fandom shipping me//takirby..... oh Boy

ive just been ignoring the fact that people Could see kirby as an adult but likeeee. like maybe he was an adult in the past but nowadays kumazaki has Definitely been leaning towards making him much much younger. kumazakis taken his usual very vague open to interpretation stance with insisting that kirbys "wakamono" (which for people who didnt catch that interview, just very vaguely means "young person" which opens up the interpretation that kirby could even be as old as 25ish in canon) but cmon you cant keep making his face bigger in proportion to his body making him look younger and cuter and making him super super tiny in comparison to other characters and having him explicitly not being able to read and write even though other characters can and also having him draw like shit with not even coloring inside the lines and having his best friend be bandana waddle dee and then confirming the waddle dees are all children in forgotten land and then being like "Yeah he could be an adult". like i dont mean to make the assumption that adults cant have child-like qualities but all of those in conjunction with each other are kindaaaaaaaaa hm. the fact that he cant read or write is really the most egregious to the argument that he could be an adult. but anyways

me//takirby instantly gets an L in the western fandom because of how frequently its shipped by prosh//ippers to get a rise out of people full stop. i did know some people who shipped me//takirby purely because they had spent so much time in the jp fandom spaces and thus assumed he was an adult from the get-go or could not see him as anything other than an adult so uh sorry to those people but 9/10 times im just kicking you if you ship it

[therealgothambychelsealauren]

Chapter IV: Cape Fitting

It is officially week 4 of law school, and though this semester my primary focus is just passing classes, the variety of legal research I've been doing has started to narrow down my career interests...

Criminal law has easily become one of my favorite classes, and I really like how integrated human rights work is with Contracts and corporation accountability.

And this interest is nothing new; even in undergrad, when I caught wind of the corruption and money embezzlement within the institution, I was immediately fueled with rage and inspired to act as an investigative journalist. I think that's the kind of work my heart's been leaning towards; hold these millionaires accountable, defend those systemically screwed by them.

Batman is using Bruce Wayne's wealth for good in the shadows because doing it out in the open perpetuates white saviorism, it isn't effective because it would have to operate within the dichotomy of wealthy people and politicians tossing money around until only scraps hit those on the ground floor. I think I wanna disrupt that dichotomy; if Bruce Wayne won't solve our problems, allow Batman to do so.

Batman is affective; gritty, not afraid to get his hands dirty, taking down those in power who are more corrupt than the goons he faces. Bruce Wayne cannot defy corruption, but the Batman can. I want to be Batman. I wanna bring the rats into the light, dismantle the protected corruption that continues to perpetuate capitalism and oppression.

I wanna take down Bruce Wayne.

[fullyautomated]

Developers can't test - a bedtime story

Automated tests written after the fact or not by developers are tech debt. BDD as an end-to-end testing framework is a supercharged tech debt creator.

Now that I have your attention allow me to blow your mind a little bit more. The best developers I know are also the best at testing their software. Not only that but they are the best at imagining how their product will be used (and abused) by their customers. They also acknowledge that they can only accomplish this when they build the product by themselves. By the way, I have only met about half a dozen of these unicorns in my career to date. Why do you think that is? I’ll go into it in this article.

The Lone Ranger

The best developers prefer to work alone. I've asked my friend Oscar (a real developer and unicorn) about the reason for this, and the answer is quite simple: "Because developers are taught either by their organizational policies or product test teams, that they shouldn't have to test because we have specialists that take care of it, and they know this is just not true! So it's the path of least resistance to just ignore the status quo and focus on producing high quality, tested software (by themselves) for others to test". At least this is the case for Oscar. I'm picking on him because I've worked with him at a few companies and have gotten first-hand experience at what he can do alone; that is, build products of high quality the first time, in record time, and on time (as promised). One example is a multi-agent system based point-of-sale application that is dynamically configured depending on the context it is deployed in (this was in the early 2000s when AI wasn't a mainstream fad). This was a personal project for him as he is also an entrepreneur (another trait of good developers), that I helped him test.

The first delivery I saw of this product was 99% complete and bug-free. Why was that? Read on.

Batman and Robin

The best developers value QA specialists' involvement and do so from the beginning and they incorporate feedback from ideation.  When Oscar came up with the idea for his product, he immediately reached out to me because he knew that, as an entrepreneur myself, I had owned and operated retail stores in the past, so I was the perfect partner for this new endeavor.

I later found out, though that the product wasn't really a point-of-sale system but a way to prove that the Multi-agent system engine he had built the year before to incorporate into a hobby product that teaches a player how to win in Black Jack (which I also helped him with) would in fact be able to be used in multiple products and for multiple purposes.

Just like superheroes team up and combine their superpowers in fantasy series, developers and quality specialists (the good ones) team up in product development. Hence, a product was delivered with only 2 bugs that were edge cases we both missed during design.

Superman

It so happens that the best developers and quality specialists are outcasts from development communities, forcing them into a life of solitude. Not in the sense that they are alone, but just like Superman was forced to live his life as a common person for fear of persecution, they must hide their true talents from a team that may feel threatened by this unknown power that they possess. Little do they know that they, too, can have this power if they only open up to different perspectives.

Transformers - More than meets the eye!

So how do we fix this? I would take a multi-faceted approach.

The first thing we have to do is acknowledge there is a problem. The problem is this false perception that developers shouldn't test because they can't. This is just not true. Developers don't test because we don't teach those who don't know they have to do this AND don't trust those who want to do it.

Second, assess your teams and figure out who on the team is of the Batman and Robin type and who isn't. Pair those that are with those that aren't.

Third create a safe space where the newly formed superteams can come and share their challenges, solutions, and triumphs. Focus your efforts on those who are trying to get there by praising them to elevate their strengths.

This doesn't have to be a huge transformation. What we are trying to accomplish here is a two-pronged shift in mindset. The developers think they shouldn't test, and the test specialists think that developers can't test. These two completely false mindsets need to be reversed.

Conclusion

Once you are able to overcome this developers can't test and test specialists are the only ones that can problem (which I will go on the line here and assume is present in a lot of organizations), you'll be able to not only deliver high-quality software the first time but you'll be able to do it faster as well. If you find yourself struggling with continuous testing and continuous delivery to production and cannot pinpoint why that is, do a quick sniff test around your organization and see if it is not rooted or minimally related to what I just described here.

What are your thoughts on this topic?

[thefinalrant]

Developers can't test - a bedtime story

Automated tests written after the fact or not by developers are tech debt. BDD as an end-to-end testing framework is a supercharged tech debt creator.

Now that I have your attention allow me to blow your mind a little bit more. The best developers I know are also the best at testing their software. Not only that but they are the best at imagining how their product will be used (and abused) by their customers. They also acknowledge that they can only accomplish this when they build the product by themselves. By the way, I have only met about half a dozen of these unicorns in my career to date. Why do you think that is? I’ll go into it in this article.

The Lone Ranger

The best developers prefer to work alone. I've asked my friend Oscar (a real developer and unicorn) about the reason for this, and the answer is quite simple: "Because developers are taught either by their organizational policies or product test teams, that they shouldn't have to test because we have specialists that take care of it, and they know this is just not true! So it's the path of least resistance to just ignore the status quo and focus on producing high quality, tested software (by themselves) for others to test". At least this is the case for Oscar. I'm picking on him because I've worked with him at a few companies and have gotten first-hand experience at what he can do alone; that is, build products of high quality the first time, in record time, and on time (as promised). One example is a multi-agent system based point-of-sale application that is dynamically configured depending on the context it is deployed in (this was in the early 2000s when AI wasn't a mainstream fad). This was a personal project for him as he is also an entrepreneur (another trait of good developers), that I helped him test.

The first delivery I saw of this product was 99% complete and bug-free. Why was that? Read on.

Batman and Robin

The best developers value QA specialists' involvement and do so from the beginning and they incorporate feedback from ideation.  When Oscar came up with the idea for his product, he immediately reached out to me because he knew that, as an entrepreneur myself, I had owned and operated retail stores in the past, so I was the perfect partner for this new endeavor.

I later found out, though that the product wasn't really a point-of-sale system but a way to prove that the Multi-agent system engine he had built the year before to incorporate into a hobby product that teaches a player how to win in Black Jack (which I also helped him with) would in fact be able to be used in multiple products and for multiple purposes.

Just like superheroes team up and combine their superpowers in fantasy series, developers and quality specialists (the good ones) team up in product development. Hence, a product was delivered with only 2 bugs that were edge cases we both missed during design.

Superman

It so happens that the best developers and quality specialists are outcasts from development communities, forcing them into a life of solitude. Not in the sense that they are alone, but just like Superman was forced to live his life as a common person for fear of persecution, they must hide their true talents from a team that may feel threatened by this unknown power that they possess. Little do they know that they, too, can have this power if they only open up to different perspectives.

Transformers - More than meets the eye!

So how do we fix this? I would take a multi-faceted approach.

The first thing we have to do is acknowledge there is a problem. The problem is this false perception that developers shouldn't test because they can't. This is just not true. Developers don't test because we don't teach those who don't know they have to do this AND don't trust those who want to do it.

Second, assess your teams and figure out who on the team is of the Batman and Robin type and who isn't. Pair those that are with those that aren't.

Third create a safe space where the newly formed superteams can come and share their challenges, solutions, and triumphs. Focus your efforts on those who are trying to get there by praising them to elevate their strengths.

This doesn't have to be a huge transformation. What we are trying to accomplish here is a two-pronged shift in mindset. The developers think they shouldn't test, and the test specialists think that developers can't test. These two completely false mindsets need to be reversed.

Conclusion

Once you are able to overcome this developers can't test and test specialists are the only ones that can problem (which I will go on the line here and assume is present in a lot of organizations), you'll be able to not only deliver high-quality software the first time but you'll be able to do it faster as well. If you find yourself struggling with continuous testing and continuous delivery to production and cannot pinpoint why that is, do a quick sniff test around your organization and see if it is not rooted or minimally related to what I just described here.

What are your thoughts on this topic?