#I hate myself but here we go

[umblrspectrum]

tessa, being the edgy little freak she is, obviously took the original darkxwolf username

[sweetmapple]

Mostly Hiring manager, but HR manager and PR manager too

[byunbaekhyunie]

@monwillica & @merrybaekmas asked: which EXO member is most like you?

JONGINIE

[necrotic-nephilim]

@sasheneskywalker i love when you enable me to ramble about things because oh my god do i have thoughts.

so recently, i made a post discussing the phenomena of DC x DP and DC x MLB crossovers and why they exist and part of that post was discussing how largely speaking, at least half, if not more of the Batfamily fandom doesn't read the comics. if they interact with canon DC material, it's adaptations that are their own sequestered universes and oftentimes not remotely comic accurate or seeking to be. the most obvious example is the Young Justice cartoon. i'm adding a cut to this post because it just got so long i'm so sorry.

a lot of times, when people are discussing the "why" of this oversaturation of fanon-only fandom, they blame Wayne Family Adventures. and i think, to a point, i agree WFA is responsible for a boom in this fandom. but as someone who's been in the fandom long before we had WFA, to me it's the other way around. WFA was DC's way of meeting the demand for this easy-to-get-into, easy-to-consume content about the Batfamily that predicates itself on the comics just enough to be vaguely the same characters, but has a more sitcom, slice-of-life sort of vibe so DC could profit off of this section of the fanbase that otherwise wasn't consuming its primary material. and well, it's definitely worked. not only that, but i have a weird theory that the decline in the MCU also led to the rise in the Batfamily fandom. when you consider the fan content that made the MCU popular within fandom, it's that 2012 "they all live in Avengers Tower and Thor is eating poptarts and Clint is in the vents and there are movie nights every Friday" sort of vibe. those were the fics that were a hallmark of the fandom. and as the MCU has strayed from well... quality content in general, but specifically well-thought-out crossover content where characters can have their own arcs but also exist in a wider story where they clearly care about each other, that fandom was sort of homeless. so where do you go, if you like a superhero found family where you can have villains for angst but also stick them all in one big family-like home for silly crack and have a plethora of options for gay ships? well. you go to the Batfamily. if you write a crack/fluff Batfamily genfic with silly vibes and low stakes instead of say, a fic about a very specific comic issue even if it's a popular comic, you're *going* to get more traction for the former. because the fanbase largely just isn't reading the comics.

and i feel... complicated about this. because on one hand, Don't Like Don't Read has been a tenet of my fandom experience. i'm very pro-fandom and that includes fandom content i don't like. and to an extent, i do think this sort of should apply to Batfamily fanon. i enjoy having my moments with other comic purists, giggling over exceptionally painful OOC headcanons or even facepalming in pain over some content but it is on me to not interact with that content. you don't make fandom a better place by being hostile to fans who engage with canon in ways you don't approve of. and frankly? we as comic readers are not going to get non-comic fans to read the comics by being asshats to them. no one is going to want to pick up any comic if we get a superiority complex about it. and also, i feel like we're all lying to ourselves a little bit insisting comics are so, so easy to get into. they're not. we can just all agree, they're really not. i've been single-handedly helping my sister get into comics, specifically Wonder Woman and no matter how simple i make it, i watch her get frustrated trying to understand what pre-Crisis and post-Crisis and New-52 and Flashpoint and all these things mean and what a retcon vs a reboot is and what a Crisis Event is and what the hell Diana's current backstory even *is*. sure, you can give someone a beginner list of comics to start with and slowly dip their toes in the water but sooner or later, *something* is going to confuse them. comics as a medium straight up aren't going to be everyone's cup of tea. and if someone *just* wants to read silly fluffy fanfiction about the Batfamily, i can't entirely begrudge them for not wanting to take the hours and hours out of their day to understand this medium. it's not an accessible medium to get into. "read this and this, but this run is out of print and this run wasn't collected in trades at all but also make sure you read that event in order and this is a good comic but the backstory in it is retconned and you *have* to read this it's so important but it's also really bad because the author kind of sucks" sounds. ridiculous for someone who like. just wants to read some stuff about Nightwing. sometimes, we all make reading comics sort of sound like a chore, not a hobby.

so my point is, i do extend some grace to Batfamily fanon for existing. i think my biggest gripe is, as i said in my other post, misuse of tags (if you're not creating content about comics, maybe you don't need the comics fandom tag on Ao3, just the all media types umbrella tag) and my far bigger gripe: when panels are taken out of context to support fanon only headcanons. if i could impart *anything* onto the Batfamily fandom as a comic fan it'd be this: if you haven't *read* the comic, don't spread the panel. if you don't even know what comic it's *from*, don't spread the panel. it's fine to use comic panels to discuss your headcanons, but so often i see someone spreading a comic panel from a comic they haven't read, and when asked where it's from, they can't source it. a silly example that comes to mind is a post going around, taking a panel where Dick, in his internal monologue goes "here comes the sun. do do do do." and the post is claiming it's from him getting buried alive. when that panel comes from Nightwing (1996) #140, and he gets buried alive in Nightwing (1996) #127, two completely different moments frankensteined together. if you're going to not read the comics, that's completely fine, but unless you're sure of the source and the context, panels shouldn't be spread around. i'm sick of this specifically happening to Red Robin (2009), with ppl claiming Tim has totally killed people because he blew up some of Ra's' bases, when those panels within context, make it clear he gave everyone time to escape. and in a later arc in that very comic, Tim grapples with the idea of murdering Captain Boomerang, and *specifically chooses not to*, because he doesn't agree with murder, even against the person who has hurt him the most. if you'd like to write fanfiction where Tim is pro-murder and has done some sketch things, i'm totally on board and would probably like to read it. but there's no need to pretend it's canon from a few panels you saw out of context.

beyond that, i think it's not *entirely* correct to say that fanon is harmless. whenever i see very WFA-positive posts, they often default to the argument that WFA is fun and silly, and comic fans are killjoys for not liking it. which. i think is complicated because the issue is, WFA and fanon don't exist in a vacuum. if you like WFA power to you, i don't think it's the worst thing ever, but i do think it's degrading to these characters because honestly? they feel incompetent in the webtoon. it's one thing if WFA was solely a slice-of-life sort of deal, just having silly episodes where Bruce is taking on a PTA mom or they're all fighting for the last cookie. but when WFA attempts to take on more serious plots with these characters, it *fundamentally* falls flat in understanding them. i get it, Bruce comforting Jason having a panic attack because a noise reminded him of the crowbar felt cute in a microcosm, but i'm so serious when i say that storyline destroyed how like. half of this fandom understands Jason Todd's relationship to his trauma. it doesn't understand how he reacts when he's triggered, what coping mechanisms he seeks out, and how he would handle Bruce comforting him. even if i can believe for a brief moment Jason *would* be triggered by something like that, him running and trying to hide and then getting a hug from Bruce to make it okay is just. painful. WFA needs everything to be wrapped up in a nice, neat little bow. so even when it starts to tackle interesting concepts, it makes them fall flat with its need to be soft, low stakes, hurt/comfort. there was a two-parter episode that dealt with the complicated mutual hatred/jealousy between Tim and Damian that *almost* really interested me because for once, it felt like the webtoon wanted to explore canon messy dynamics. but of course, it had to be fixed with one conversation and a hug. you don't mend the *years* of issues these characters have like that. WFA isn't in character because these characters are hyperbole cartoonified versions of themselves to fit within the medium and be a cute happy family.

because that right there, is the crux of it. the Batfamily fanon seeks to simplify the Batfamily and force them into a nuclear family. there are so many fantastic posts on here discussing how the nuclear family-ification of the Batfam is eroding decades worth of complex histories so i won't go too far into that. but what i will say is that there's this need, in the Batfamily fandom, for the Batfamily to exist as a unit. they are a *family*. (honestly i think calling it the Batfamily is a misnomer and has been for years but we're in too deep now.) they exist to each other first, and any teams or friends they have come secondary to this family unit. you can *specifically* see this demonstrated in what headcanons are becoming popular these days. i have an entire lengthy meta in my drafts about how i *loathe* the "the Batfamily meets the Justice League" genre of fanfic because it makes no *sense*. in order to have this genre of fic exist, you must operate under the assumption that no one in the League, or adjacent to the League, knows the Batfamily exists and are thus utterly shocked to discover Batman has kids. and to make *that* work, you have to strip *every single Batfamily member* of such important dynamics and friendships so you can lock them all in Gotham for their whole lives. Dick can't have the Titans, Tim can't have Young Justice, Duke & Cass can't have the Outsiders, Jason can't have the Outlaws, Damian can't have the Supersons, Babs can't have the Birds of Prey, and so on. because if they had these relationships, they would be known to the League. the Batfamily fandom doesn't care about this, it's just "silly fanfiction", it's not trying to be serious. but how can you say you like Dick Grayson as a character if you don't understand the Titans *are* his family? at some points of his life, moreso than the Batfamily even is. it is constantly repeated to us in most comics with Dick how much the Titans mean to him. he *needs* them to be who he is. the same extends to every other Batfamily member, most of which have been full League members at this point. but in fanon, that doesn't matter. the Batfamily are a sequestered unit first, and all of those side relationships are secondary and easy to toss away, if it makes your fanfic work better.

and because they have to be a unit first, you have these forced relationships that dump years of actual canon material for the sake of making them get along. the Batfamily fandom has its favorites and well. it's no secret it's usually the boys. Jason and Tim by *far* stand out as fandom faves so, their dynamic is a heavily explored one. it does matter that in canon they don't tend to get along and especially don't see each other as family. what matters is that you can push dynamics onto them. and so fanon gets all twisted up about which Robin Tim actually idolized as a kid (Dick) and what member of the Batfamily is pro-murder but still an older sibling figure to him and looks out for him (Helena, or if you want the dynamic of once tried to harm Tim but they've reconciled, Jean-Paul) in favor of who's the most popular. Dick, Jason, Tim, and Damian are always going to be the standouts for popularity, but it's specifically Jason and Tim who are getting fanonized the most. and that's because really, we don't have much canon content of Tim that *isn't* the comics. for Dick you've got Young Justice (tv), for Damian you've got the DCAMU, for Jason you've sort of got the Under The Red Hood movie, but Tim sort of lingers in this limbo. (yes, he's in Young Justce (tv) and Titans (live action) but in neither is he the main character nor given much depth) so, he gets a *lot* projected onto him and has become fanonized. and even with Jason's animated movies, you don't see him interact with Tim, so people build it from the ground up how they want to see it, disregarding of canon comics. i think it's what makes him so popular in the first place- he's malleable into whatever you want or need him to be.

and of course, the fanon ignores other characters in the Batfamily it doesn't know about. i feel like you could create a tier list of Batfamily characters by their popularity, going from the fandom main characters: Tim, Jason, Bruce, Alfred, Dick, Damian. to the underrated: Steph, Duke, Babs, Cass. to the forgotten about unless they're convenient for a story: Kate, the Foxes, Helena Wayne, Carrie, Selina, Harper Row, Maps, Minhkhoa Khan. to the absolutely unknown: Helena Bertinelli, Jean-Paul Valley, Onyx Adams, the Clovers, Julia Pennyworth. it's not lost on me that the ignored characters tend to be women and people of color. which is both a canon and fanon problem, DC will continue adding interesting characters to the Batfamily, play with them for a few years, then drop them to default to the "Batboys" again. and it's a vicious cycle of the fandom only caring about the "Batboys", and thus people entering the fandom via fanon osmosis won't have content about the other characters, therefore, they won't be interested in those characters enough to create it, and it's just this ouroboros consuming itself, no matter how much canon content we have of these other characters. and it's ridiculous just how large the Batfamily is becoming because of this, which is why i'm a pre-Flashpoint fan, because then the Batfamily was contained enough to actually feel like a family with every character having nuances relationships with each other, but i digress because those thoughts could be their own post.

and the thing about fanon is it doesn't exist in a vacuum. DC has started turning the comics to accommodate for what fans are asking for, because fans will beg and beg for content they're not going to consume. Tim Drake: Robin had Tim as a coffee drinker because that's the fanon accepted headcanon. and the resolution of the recent Gotham War arc was for Bruce to buy this new manor for everyone to move in and call him. nevermind that most of these characters have their own homes and have zero reason to be moving in with Bruce. Tim had his marina in Tim Drake: Robin, Dick has Bludhaven, Cass and Steph have their little side of town in Batgirls (2022), and so on. these characters are being forced together as a unit, as one big happy family living together, to appease what non-comic fans want and it's damaging comic relationships. Robin: Knight Terrors saw Jason and Tim team up and working together, which i've seen varying opinions on but i personally despised. their interactions made zero sense for any of their canon history, but it appeases them being this close sibling relationship that fanon acts like they are. also the fears they faced in their respective knight terrors didn't make sense for either character and *only* worked as a moment of bringing them together so they could reassure each other and have this weird dreamscape bonding moment. the canon is bending itself to the will of fanon rather than building on the pre-existing complex relationships. Tim barely even gets along with his most important team in Dark Crisis: Young Justice because it seems the only important relationships the Batfamily can have is with each other. and when we do see them outside of the Batfamily, it only seems to be to relive the glory days like with World's Finest: Teen Titans, instead of developing them as they currently exist. this isn't recent in the comics, it feels like you can trace it back to the New-52, but it does feel a *lot* worse over the recent years. WFA is fine when it exists in its own bubble, but the simple truth is, DC content never exists on its own. the adaptations will reflect back onto the comics. (the damage the Young Justice cartoon has done to some characters should honestly be studied) and so it does frustrate me a bit when fanon-only or adaptation-only fans act like we're being nothing but killjoys for being frustrated with this. since they don't read the comics, they don't see how the comics are suffering as a result of this.

people argue about what's out of character for the comics they don't even read. i'm sorry, but "bad dad Bruce" is consistently canon. that man is just kind of shitty. when you take someone who has the drive he has, who has this need for the Mission first, who needs a teenager in spandex next to him to keep him off the ledge, that guy is sort of going to be a shitty father figure. he just is. not on purpose or with malice, but when you compare him to any other dad in a big DC family, he sure takes the cake. it's why characters like Oliver Queen tend to *really* fucking hate Bruce for how he treats his kids. Bruce loves fiercely, but he doesn't do well with putting that love first. and his love is a controlling one, he is very particular about controlling how others in the Batfamily are "allowed" to operate. it's what drives the wedge between him and Dick, it's why Steph is never a true daughter to him. (besides the reason of her needing to be a love interest to Tim first, anyway-) i've never understood the massive outcry of people reacting to Bruce kinda being shitty in comics they're not reading. there are some moments that get ridiculously OOC with how cartoonishly evil he is (the whole Gotham War arc and that... complicated mess with Jason) but largely if you want sitcom loving nuclear father Bruce, you have to accept that is a fanon thing, not a canon one. the Batfamily being a nuclear family in *general* is fanon. most of the "Batkids" don't actually see Bruce in a particularly fatherly light and begging for moments where he calls them his kids or they call him dad outside of incredibly specific circumstances is just OOC.

it's getting harder and harder to exist peacefully in this fandom it feels like, if you don't comply to the standard fanon has set. i'm happy people are having fun with their blorbos, even if in ways i dislike, but that "harmless fandom fun" does ripple it's way back to canon, eventually. so i end up pretty tangled with my feelings because are fans at fault for DC making these poor decisions? probably not, but it certainly feels like an unfortunate cause-and-effect situation whether at the end of the day, nobody is happy. and of course, i know some fanon-only fans are striving to be more canon accurate and care about canon dynamics more than others, but for them it's always going to be an uphill battle with the above-mentioned out-of-context panels thrown around and ever-pervasive fanon overtaking anything that's truly seeking to be canon compliant. so really, it sometimes feels like we're all losing.

[darling-stardust]

The little voice in Hermie’s mind spoke up again, and this time, there was nothing to distract him. He wasn’t ready to listen - but then again, he didn’t think he would ever be ready. As sunlight trickled in through Normal’s window and spilled across the floor like melted gold, he finally let himself think it: I am in love with Normal Oak. ...And I’m never going to tell him.

Have you read Cosmiado's fic as long as you're here i will live like this ?? Because I have and I had to do something about my feelings !!

[98chao]

truly i love all of you and i'm so grateful for all the support i get on my vanilla milkshake posts here because i've just seen the way people talk about vanilla milkshake and mysticao on twitter and its genuinely taken 50 years off my life. now i've been reminded as to why i should never join the crk fandom on twitter

[ilynpilled]

i truly do find it kinda silly when ppl dont grasp that u cannot act like the narcissistic and self-absorbed behavior thats present in lannisters contradicts deeply rooted and intense self-hatred or low self-esteem. like the former doesnt at all dispute the latter lol it showcases it more than anything honestly

[stegulus]

all our time has come

“It’s Black land,” Regulus repeats, his voice rising now, losing the controlled edge that never seemed to leave him at school. “I don’t want you here. This is my clearing, I was here first, and you always do this, and he’s my brother, not yours, and– and– and I hate you, and Sirius showed it to me first, and it’s not fair! It– it isn’t fair.” He’s run out of steam by the end of his tirade, voice trailing off, breathing hard, eyes wet and ears red.

hogwarts, a summer, a war, and a time loop to bring them together

regulus black / james potter

words: 19,717 ; chapters: 2/18

updates every week

read on ao3 / a lily & bas project

[skeletoninthemelonland]

never lay down in bed right after eating. don't think about staying on your phone for nearly two hours in that position. don't sleep either. acid reflux is real and i hate that guy

[spaciebabie]

hey so im not white

[syn4k]

area man somehow stumbles into the mianite fandom, does a triple front flip, accidentally introduces 2,000 people to the series, sticks the landing, and is basically singlehandedly responsible for a miniature fandom revival in the year of our lord 2024, illustrated

[panharmonium]

Hi! I love your Naruto thoughts and meta posts with all my heart and I want to ask your thoughts on something that has been on my mind literally since I was 13: what do you think about the relationship between Sasuke and Sakura? I went from being a hardcore shipper when I was a teenager, to being against any romantic relationship in Naruto after finishing the anime when I was in my early twenties. Nowadays I'm very into platonic love and depictions of friendship and I think the anime's obsession with forcing the "romantic interest" curse upon the main female character robbed us of... so much. There are a few wonderful moments in the anime where Sasuke and Sakura acknowledge each other, but because she's always "the girl with the crush", her actions are so often interpret as irrational or selfish by the fandom.

Hi @riemmetric!  It's great to talk to you again! Sorry it's taken me so long to answer this; RL has been making demands of me lately and it took me way longer to finish writing this up than I wanted it to (then again, I knew from the minute I read your original ask that my reply was going to get long, so I suppose I should have predicted a delay XD)

It's funny, my sister once asked me to choose between Sasuke or Sakura for an “unpopular opinion” meme, and I ended up doing Sasuke solely because I think the negative fandom opinions about Sakura are so unhinged and divorced from the actual text that I wouldn’t even know where to start.  People are entitled to dislike whatever characters they want, obviously, but there are some fandom takes that are, for me, so obviously rooted in bad faith viewings/readings that there’s no urge in me to discuss them.  That said, since you asked, I’m happy to go into my own thoughts on this a bit, with the disclaimer for other potential readers that I only write about fandom things for my own personal enjoyment, not as a contribution to The Discourse. If you don’t like Sakura, great!  I have no interest in changing your mind. Please consider this a sincere invitation to scroll on by and go enjoy whatever parts of the fandom appeal to you.

In general terms: I love Sasuke and Sakura’s relationship as much as I love all of the relationships in Team 7.  If we’re talking about them specifically as a romantic couple, then I probably fall somewhere in the middle of the spectrum, because I do like them together in a post-canon (to be clear: non-Boruto) setting, after time has passed and they’ve continued to develop individually and reconnect with each other, but I also wouldn’t exactly call myself an intense “shipper,” in the sense that I have no interest in pulling things out from the text and incorrectly citing them as evidence that Sasuke has hidden romantic feelings for her during the canon period. He cares about her in the canon period, just like he cares about Naruto and Kakashi.  That’s not up for interpretation; it’s the text.  But Sasuke during the canon time period does not demonstrate specifically romantic interest in anyone.  

[A note before people who might ship Sasuke with Someone Else emerge to rail against this statement - please just scroll past and continue enjoying fandom in whatever way is most fun for you. It is cool to ship whatever fanon thing you want; I think that’s great!  But earnestly citing any loving or emotional thing Sasuke does re: various characters in this story (yes, Sakura included) as indicative of specifically romantic love isn’t supported by the text. I know there are always going to be enormous subsets of any fandom who insist that it is, and I'm certainly not going to barge into anyone else's space to complain about that (because other people having fun together is harmless and none of my business), but I'm not obligated to indulge it on my own blog, either.]

Anyway, that said - the reason why I love Sakura and Sasuke’s relationship (from here on out I’ll use “relationship” in a general, non-romantic sense) is precisely because Sakura isn’t just “the girl with the crush.” Sakura has an arc when it comes to Sasuke, and its trajectory moves in the exact opposite direction of “irrational” or “selfish.”  She specifically goes from “the girl with the crush” to “the girl who steels herself and tries to put her personal feelings for Sasuke aside for the greater good” to “the girl who knows she can’t put her feelings aside, but who also knows full well that Sasuke doesn’t reciprocate them, and who still wants to save him regardless, because he matters to her as a person and a friend.”

[I'm putting the rest of this under a cut to save everyone's dash, and also to emphasize once again that this is a personal post on my personal blog which I wrote in response to a question from a personal acquaintance, the full content of which no one is obligated to read. I am not sending this post to random strangers and forcing them to look at it. I'm not even putting it in the character tags. I'm typing it up on my own blog and putting it under a cut. If you already know that you don't like Sakura, but you still click the link/read the post and then feel an urge to comment and complain, I am going to copy-paste this disclaimer and remind you that I specifically recommended that you scroll past and go have fun with fandom in your own way. Thanks in advance for responsibly curating your own fandom experience!]

So, from the top:

1. the girl with the crush

Sakura is, obviously, completely obsessed with Sasuke at the beginning of Part 1.  She’s also deeply clueless about him and his history (bizarre though it is, the story seems to indicate that she initially doesn’t know what happened with his family, the same way young!Obito is initially clueless about Kakashi’s father).  But what I like about Sakura and Sasuke’s Part 1 relationship is how this changes over time.

The critical scene that kicks this off happens right at the beginning of the manga, when she and Sasuke are talking by that bench - she complains about Naruto and blames his behavior on him being all alone/having no family to scold him; and even says she’s jealous that he doesn’t have parents to nag him all the time.  This obviously triggers an outburst from Sasuke, who tells her she has no idea what loneliness means and that she “makes him sick”/she’s “annoying” (importantly, the exact same thing Sakura said to Naruto in anger earlier that day), which in turn prompts Sakura to reassess herself and wonder whether she’s been making Naruto feel this terrible all the time, too:

From that point on, it’s a process of her putting little pieces together.  She still has a MAJOR crush, and she still acts like a twelve year-old, but as we approach the end of Part I, Sakura actually has a more accurate grasp on Sasuke’s current state of mind than Naruto does.  Naruto is initially excited to fight Sasuke on top of the hospital, because he feels like Sasuke’s finally acknowledging him, whereas Sakura is the one who immediately recognizes that something is wrong about this situation.  She is also the one who, after this fight, is concerned that Sasuke is really unwell and might do something drastic like run off in pursuit of the power Orochimaru promised him, but when she communicates this to Naruto, he assures her that this would NEVER happen:

(Sakura isn't convinced, though, because she goes to monitor the exit out of the village anyway.)

I’m not criticizing Naruto for his response here.  I ADORE hearing him say that Sasuke is too strong to need Orochimaru, with such perfect confidence - I love seeing how much respect and admiration he has for Sasuke underneath all their fighting, because that’s the whole reason he’s always baiting Sasuke and yelling at him and claiming “you're not so great!” He looks up to Sasuke; he wants to be like Sasuke; he thinks Sasuke is awesome! (It’s that Obito @ Kakashi behavior, you know?) But the fact remains that he is clueless about what’s actually going on with Sasuke in Part 1, and he remains clueless(ly optimistic) for a long time.  

(Eg, when he catches up to Sasuke during the retrieval arc and Sasuke climbs out of that cursed seal coffin, Naruto waves at him and calls "Come on, let's go!" as if Sasuke has been successfully rescued and is now going to come running home.  Even in Part II, when Naruto hears that Sasuke killed Orochimaru, he beams and immediately says, “So he must be on his way back to the Leaf Village!”  And everyone else in the room is like, “....,” because they know better.  Naruto doesn’t yet fully understand [or doesn't want to accept] the extent to which Sasuke has willingly chosen this path, and it’s not until after Jiraiya’s death/the Pain attack/the Five Kage Summit that Naruto really starts to understand Sasuke more clearly, which is something he himself admits.)

Sakura, in Part 1, has access to more information about Sasuke - she’s there for his first dissociative monologue during the bells test, she’s there for the curse mark’s placement, she’s there for his first violent transformation in the Forest of Death - she is, in fact, the unwitting catalyst for it (“Sakura…who did this to you?”), and her compassion is the reason Sasuke is later able to overcome the curse mark’s influence - so she has a more accurate/complete picture of “how he’s doing,” for lack of a better phrase, whereas Naruto, who doesn’t know about the curse mark in the first place, is still in the dark.  This means that Sakura is able to accurately discern that Sasuke is struggling more than Naruto realizes, and specifically to predict that he’s going to run away.  

(This dynamic is then interestingly flipped in the back half of Part II, since at any point after the Five Kage Summit, Sakura doesn’t have access to extremely relevant [if currently questionable and unproven] details that would in any other circumstance inform her behavior).

Of course, just because she has more info in Part 1 doesn’t mean she has some kind of miraculous insight into Sasuke’s every thought and feeling.  There are parts of her attempt to convince Sasuke to stay in the village that are as clueless as any of Naruto’s assumptions, and they showcase the kind of magical thinking common to childhood - like when she says that if he stayed with her, she could give him happiness, she’d do anything for him, even help him get his revenge - this idea that she herself can do something to make him feel better, that she can love him powerfully enough to defeat his pain - obviously none of that is rooted in realism.

Is this part of her approach irrational and immature and inadvertently self-centered?  Of course it is!  But it’s no more irrational and immature and inadvertently self-centered than Naruto’s stated plan to drag Sasuke back to the village even if he has to “break every bone in [his] body!” 

Hating on Sakura for her Part 1 attempt to convince Sasuke to stay in the village while simultaneously lauding Naruto for his feels like a bad faith misread of what is, to me, pretty clear narrative intention.  The story doesn’t at any point intend for us to see her begging him to stay as a selfish or conniving attempt to get something she wants.  She’s begging him to stay for the same underlying reason that Naruto is: she cares about him.  She thinks he’s making a mistake that will only cause him more pain in the end (she’s right) and she wants to make it so he feels less pain right now (she can’t.  But she doesn’t understand that/isn’t able to admit that, and she’s willing to try ANYTHING that might help).  

It’s critical that this farewell scene is set in front of that same bench from their first important confrontation - she references that day and how angry he got at her, and this time she tells him that she understands his reaction.  She’s learned things and she recognizes how insensitive she was being back then (“I know what happened to your clan, Sasuke”), even though she still can’t fully grasp all the complexities of the situation. She tells him that him blowing up at her back then helped her understand what loneliness actually meant (as opposed to her previous shallow understanding of it), and she challenges him about his choice right now: "So that's it, you're choosing the lonely path?" And when she tells him that she'll be very lonely if he leaves, we're immediately shown a panel of Sasuke thinking of both his friends, with the very clear implication that if he goes through with this, he will be lonely without them, too - that he's still struggling with the idea of leaving them, no matter how hard he tries to pretend:

Sakura at this point knows that Sasuke isn’t interested in her the way she is in him, but she still wants to give him happiness, however fantastical and immature her ideas sound to us (and, I’m sure, to him).  “I’ll do anything, even help you get your revenge/we'll have fun every day, and...and you'll be happy! I'll make sure of it!” - of course, it’s completely childish.  It’s irrational.  It’s ridiculous to think that any of this would ever be effective, but no more ridiculous than Naruto’s belief that he can simply break every bone in Sasuke’s body and keep him in the Leaf by force.

Both Naruto and Sakura are children who have a deeply oversimplified understanding of Sasuke’s situation.  They both still think they can fix him themselves.  They both think they can save him themselves.  They both think they can convince (or force) him to do what they want, what they think is in his best interests.  Both of them don’t yet understand that he has to want to come back, if it’s ever going to mean anything.  Their attempts to keep him in the village are immature and unrealistic, yes.  What they aren’t, however, is selfish, because neither Sakura nor Naruto are doing any of this with the intention of advancing their own interests.  They’re only thinking about Sasuke - how to keep Sasuke safe, how to make Sasuke happy - even when neither of them are taking an approach that will actually work.

Naruto and Sakura are children.  They’re afraid of losing somebody they care about.  Their attempts to prevent that from happening are desperate and messy and ultimately ineffective, but they are also genuinely felt and rooted in a true desire to rescue Sasuke from his pain, which - and this is the single most important thing that should impact our viewing of Part 1 - is something that Sasuke RECOGNIZES.  He doesn’t spend that agonizingly long moment bowed over Naruto’s defeated body so we can pretend he doesn’t understand that Naruto was just trying to help him.  He doesn’t take the time to murmur, “Sakura…thank you,” before laying her out carefully on a bench, just so we can discount it and pretend that he doesn’t recognize and appreciate her genuine intention to make things better for him, however clumsy that attempt might have been.

2. the greater good

If Stage 1 Sakura is "the girl with the crush," then Stage 2 Sakura is a progression to “the girl who decides to put her feelings for Sasuke aside in order to protect innocent people, including (but certainly not limited to) Naruto.”  She’s driven to this decision by interactions with Shikamaru, who all too recently had to grow up fast himself (“We're not kids anymore...we can't allow a war to break out between the Hidden Leaf and the Hidden Cloud because of Sasuke") and Sai, who risks his new friendship with Sakura and Team 7 in order to speak some hard truths and deliver one of my favorite lines in the whole story: “I don’t know what promise Naruto made to you, but it’s really no different than what was done to me.  It’s like a curse mark.”

(INCREDIBLE.  How can anybody be complaining about a season where Sai gets to say something that goes THIS HARD and Sakura LISTENS and takes DRAMATIC ACTION that actually propels the story forward in a meaningful way - )

[Okay, yeah, brief personal opinion interlude - it is just bonkers wild to me that there are people who complain about Sakura in the Five Kage Summit arc. That entire season is the greatest character arc she ever has.  Literally she has never been more interesting and dynamic than in Season 10; it’s the first time she ever gets to be as deep and fascinating as the boys; what is everybody so worked up about?  Oh, “she lied to Naruto that one time” - Sasuke joined infant-kidnapping baby-murdering human experimentation machine Orochimaru when he was twelve years old in order to (dare I say it????) selfishly pursue his personal goals and yet, somehow, we are still able to root for him.  He abandoned his friends/allies to imprisonment and death (Suigetsu and Jūgo) or outright stabbed them in the chest himself (Karin) in order to (SELFISHLY) get what he wanted, and yet, somehow, we are still able to love him, understand him, and be on his side.  Naruto is canonically not upset with Sakura about her lie after receiving context for the situation and I think we can probably take our cues from him without feeling the need to bring her up on war crimes; please calm down]

[Sorry, I just really love most of Season 10 and think it’s one of the best examples of how good this story can be when every single character gets to do something that matters (as opposed to things being all Naruto, all the time) so I get a little bit worked up over people complaining about some of the best writing Sakura ever gets.  I don’t understand what certain elements of fandom want from her. People complain about her being “useless” and not doing anything that contributes to the story, but then they complain just as much when she does finally get to act decisively and have just as complex/dynamic an inner world as the boys.  She’s “weak” for being unreasonably in love with Sasuke, but when she tries to be “strong” and put her love for him aside and eliminate him in order to protect Naruto and the rest of the world, she’s evil, because she should have been more understanding of his situation (despite the fact that she doesn’t KNOW anything about his situation).  But then when she can’t go through with killing him after all because she cares about him too much despite the things he’s done, she’s not "compassionate" or "kind" or "a good friend," she’s “weak” again. Nothing Sakura does in S10 is more wrongheaded or rash than any of the batshit, buckwild things Naruto and Sasuke have done in the past (and will continue to do in the future), but when Naruto and Sasuke have big feelings or take bold action, it makes them interesting characters, whereas Sakura can’t breathe in anyone’s direction without being minutely scrutinized for moral impurities.]  

Anyway. Back to a more measured response.  

Every single piece of development Sakura has with regard to Sasuke in this season satisfies me so much.  Her initial shock and disbelief at hearing that Sasuke had joined the Akatsuki?  Good, appropriate.  The fact that she starts to acknowledge the reality of what Sasuke’s done sooner than Naruto does?  Also extremely appropriate, very in-character for both of them.  Her taking Sai’s words to heart and deciding that the promise she asked Naruto to make when they were children is causing him to suffer and she has to relieve him of that burden?  Juicy!  AND thematically significant (promises!!!!  the burden that a promise places on a person, especially when it can't be kept - we've seen that before in this story and we'll see it again).  Her anguished pivot from wanting to protect Sasuke to realizing that she has a responsibility to protect the countless innocents who will die because of the war he’s trying to start?  HELLO THIS IS INCREDIBLE CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT.  Her knocking out the classmates who agreed to help her so they don’t have to share in her burden (and so the only person Naruto will hate when it’s over is her)?  BRUH.  Her being so committed and focused on her goal of saving innocents and protecting Naruto (not just from being harmed by Sasuke/the Akatsuki, but by the possibility that Naruto will someday have to hurt Sasuke himself) that she tries to take everything on by herself and walks into a confrontation that she absolutely cannot win??  INCREDIBLE.  (Literally the first time I watched this, I said, “Finally!!!  It’s Sakura’s turn to go off the rails!”  I laughed with my sister about how Kakashi isn’t even mad, because Naruto and Sasuke have been pulling stunts like this for years and Sakura was way overdue for her own meltdown.)  And then, after Kakashi intervenes in the fight - Sakura barreling back into the battle when she realizes he’s going to take on the burden of killing Sasuke himself in order to spare her and Naruto the horror - “I can’t let Kakashi-sensei bear this burden!”  I love her for that.  

And then, of course, in the end - her not being able to do hurt Sasuke after all.  Despite committing herself to the act, despite forcing herself to put her feelings for him aside, despite resolving to stop him from starting a war and killing innocent people, she can’t harm him.  She cares about him too much.  This, too, is thematically significant - think about Itachi’s “you don’t have enough hatred” - she doesn’t have enough hatred to kill someone she cares about, even if it seems like he deserves it, even if would be the right thing to do to protect others.  She can’t do it, and Sasuke almost kills her for her compassion.  

I love the dynamic this sets up between her and Sasuke, for a few reasons:

1) Personally, I think Sasuke respects Sakura much more for trying to kill him than he would have if she’d just tried to talk him out of his behavior or beg him to come home (a la their original confrontation in Part 1).  This is the first significant interaction he’s had with Sakura in years, and the fact that she does something SO contrary to his memory of her is an important demonstration of the fact that she’s not the same girl she used to be.  Sasuke spends a lot of time after his defection declaring to his old team “I’ve changed; I’m not that person anymore,” but this is one of the moments where he’s forced to acknowledge that his teammates have changed, too.  Time didn’t just stop for them when he left.  While he was turning into someone new, so were they.  They grew up without him, and his old memories of them can’t encompass the whole picture of who they are now.  

(This is a little tangential, but in general, I love the spectrum of reactions that Naruto, Sakura, and Kakashi have in this sequence, and the way that all of them are ultimately messages Sasuke needs to hear.  Sasuke - who we know textually regrets what he did here, who apologizes to Sakura for it later - for “everything,” in fact - needs Naruto’s aggressively optimistic open-arms policy, yes, needs that potential, that unconditional possibility of return.  He also needs Sakura’s refusal to let him hurt her friends and start a war that will kill thousands of people, needs her surprisingly ruthless attempt to take him down; needs just as much her failure to do so, because it shows him that she still loves him too much to kill him even as she condemns him.  And he needs Kakashi’s grim line in the sand, needs someone who very possibly won't hesitate like Sakura (despite the horrifying personal cost), someone who will try to reach him but also won't let him escape and become the next generation’s Orochimaru, who won't let him cause untold suffering to untold numbers of people just because a teacher loved him too much to stop him when he had the chance. 

(And then even Kakashi chooses not to deliver a killing blow when he has the opportunity -)

(I know that in fandom people are more likely to be all, “oh, Naruto Good, everybody else Bad,” but I don’t think the narrative frames Sakura or Kakashi as “worse” than Naruto in any way.  The story goes out of its way to make it clear how desperately they don’t want to hurt Sasuke and how much they care about him.  And [this is just my interpretation, so obviously I won’t claim it as fact], I personally think that Sasuke - Sasuke, who, looking back, can see how lost he was then and how tortured he would have been if he’d gone through with many of his plans - would be grateful to Sakura and Kakashi for making an attempt to stop him when he couldn’t stop himself.)

2) On the other side of this, the fact that Sakura wasn’t able to deliver the killing blow means a lot. Sasuke was incapacitated under that bridge; he was completely at her mercy - but she stopped with the kunai an inch from his back.  She couldn’t kill him, even though she knew that he was completely willing to kill her (because he'd attempted to Chidori-assassinate her from behind just a few minutes ago).  That’s huge!  Sasuke is too out of his head right now to process this or understand it, but later, it's going to matter.  She stayed her hand.  She spared his life.  She loved him too much to hurt him, even when he’d given her every reason to take him down.  She hesitated, and he almost killed her for it, but her inability to strike him ultimately gave him yet another chance to come home, another chance to get better, another chance to have a life outside of his pain.  Despite everything, some part of her still hadn’t really given up on him, and that knowledge will matter later, when he’s finally able to acknowledge it.  

The point of all this is to say that I really have no complaints about Sakura and Sasuke’s dynamic in their S10 confrontation.  This season is the point where Sakura fully grows past her “girl with a crush” stage and into her “shinobi must make very harsh decisions” adulthood, but it never means that she doesn’t care about the person she’s trying to take down.  Her ultimate inability to deliver the killing blow remains a dangling lifeline for her relationship with Sasuke, an open door that Sasuke is able to walk through at the end of the story (literally, in fact, when Sakura opens that portal for him and saves him from Kaguya’s desert prison, and figuratively, too, when Sasuke apologizes to her).

3. she only wants to save you

The last stage in their relationship is what Sakura settles into during the war arc.  She started off Part 1 being just a girl with a crush, then tried to harden her heart and put her feelings for Sasuke aside in service of the greater good, but she was unable to actually follow through and kill him, and because of that, what she’s come to accept by the war arc is actually two things: that 1) Sasuke truly is willing to let her die if it furthers his goals, and 2) she wants to save him anyway.  

She has no intention of pursuing Sasuke romantically.  She knows full well that Sasuke isn’t interested in her.  She even knows that Sasuke isn’t really on their side (there’s a great scene where Sai questions Sakura about Sasuke’s return, and she reassures him that everything is fine, and Sai sadly thinks to himself “even I can tell your smile is fake”).  She’s well-aware that Sasuke didn’t try to help her when Madara stabbed her.  She’s well-aware that he left her to die in the lava pit.  She’s also well-aware that none of this is enough to make her stop loving him.  He doesn’t have to care about her - she still cares about him.  She still wants to help him.  She still wants to save him.

This is not hidden, hard-to-parse character development.  It’s explicitly articulated on the page:

Sakura’s not trying or wanting to make you hers!  She only wants to save you.

I’m not sure if people look at this last confrontation and unquestioningly take Sasuke at his word (as if we haven’t just read 71 volumes/watched 700 episodes showing us how how painfully distorted his thinking is), or if they stop reading/watching before the end of the scene, or if they don’t understand that Sasuke saying something doesn’t make that statement an accurate representation of reality.  The entire point of this scene is to show us how deeply mistaken Sasuke is about Sakura (and, by extension, the rest of Team 7).  He’s locked into a false pattern of thinking.  His single-minded focus on revenge and destruction has blinded him to the unconditional love his friends feel for him; he’s become so accustomed to using others and being used that he can’t understand or accept that someone would care about him without needing a reason, without needing him to love them back, without needing to receive something from him in exchange.

Sakura’s not trying or wanting to make you hers!  She only wants to save you.

Sasuke matters to Sakura as more than a love interest.  He always has.  She does love him romantically, yes, but she doesn’t only love him romantically, and her desire to help him is not and has never been contingent on him returning her feelings, romantically or otherwise.  Sasuke isn’t able to acknowledge that in this scene, but that doesn’t mean we’re supposed to just sit back and agree with his warped perspective.  Kakashi is the one who’s explicitly positioned as the voice of the narrative here.  We, as the audience, are supposed to recognize that Kakashi is the one telling us the truth.

[tangential thing 1: You don’t have to love Sakura's last plea to Sasuke here. It’s not my favorite, either - the best part, other than Kakashi’s speech at the end, is the moment after Kakashi collapses when Sakura’s expression changes from pained uncertainty to pure rage, when she grits her teeth together - when I first saw that, I almost leapt out of my seat like “Oh my god.  She’s finally going to let him have it.  It’s finally happening - ”  I wanted that so badly, and I still think it would have been a more effective writing choice for Sakura’s last words to lean more into her anger at the suffering Sasuke is causing all of them (himself included!) and less into yet another of Kishimoto’s “let me have Sakura articulate what a shame it is that she can’t do as much as Naruto despite the fact that I literally just went through a major reveal sequence in the war to show that she’s caught up to the boys; I can’t make up my mind about whether I want her to progress or not” - it’s extremely frustrating (and it's something he does at the very end of the S10 Team 7 reunion, too, which is the ONLY moment of S10 that falls flat for me).  But at the same time, even if there are ways this sequence could be more satisfying, it doesn’t change the fact that her plea to him is not remotely motivated by a desire to be with him romantically and not anything to condemn her for.]

[tangential thing 2: I do like how she remembers that moment when Sasuke says “Thank you.”  That panel precedes her saying “If there’s even a tiny corner of your heart that thinks about me…” (which I’m sure is one of the things that people like to criticize about this scene, aka “oh she’s sooooo self-centered” etc), but that particular line of dialogue is preceded by that particular flashback panel for a reason: Sakura knows that Sasuke DOES think about her.  He thinks about all of them.  Sakura remembers that “thank you,” and it reminds her that despite everything Sasuke has done and said since, despite all evidence to the contrary, she knows in her bones that his expression of gratitude back then was genuine.  He cared about her once.  He cared about all of them.  She’s trying to reach the part of him that still does, if it exists.]

[tangential thing 3: The fact that Kakashi says “she suffers from loving you,” and it triggers Sasuke to remember his own family - thinking about how much he suffered (and still suffers) from loving them - “Perhaps…those are the ties to a failed past” - the idea that it’s not worth it to have bonds if it means you suffer this much…that it’s too difficult, it’s too painful, and if Sakura and the rest of Team 7 were smarter they would just give it up (all Sasuke knows how to do now is sever potential bonds before they can hurt him; so why aren’t Sakura and the rest of his teammates doing that, why can’t they let it go, why are they making this so hard - ) << yeah, he clearly doesn't care about her/them at all.]

4. the shadow of my family

This has all been a really long way to answer the original question, but the short response to “What do you think about the relationship between Sasuke and Sakura?” is “I really care about it,” just like I really care about the relationship between Sasuke and Naruto, just like I really care about the relationship between Sasuke and Kakashi. And I don’t think the story ever asks me to choose between them.

I’m not sure whether it’s the impact of Boruto-era “canon” that gets in the way of other people approaching things this way (I don’t consider sequel material when I evaluate the original story), or if it’s Kishimoto’s frequent disinterest in/disrespect towards female characters, which yes, does sometimes make it harder, or if it's a shipping thing (bane of my existence), or some combination of factors, but for me, taking one member of Team 7 out of the equation hobbles the rest of the story.  I can’t read/watch Naruto while hating one of the protagonists and loving the other three.  It doesn’t work like that for me.  The story wasn’t written that way, and there’s nothing in the text that would cause me to receive it that way.

That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with disliking one of the main foursome (or any character, for that matter) - obviously we're all going to have different preferences, and everyone is free to enjoy or reject whatever parts of a story they want, or to like or dislike whatever characters they want. I know that some people have more fun disregarding canon and doing their own thing, which is fine.  My own personal zone of enjoyment comes from receiving the story as closely to how I think it was intended to be read as I can, and personally, when I look at this particular story, what I see is that all the members of Team 7 clearly demonstrate their love for Sasuke in ways that he himself later recognizes and acknowledges. All of them are driven by their desire to save him and their unwillingness to hurt him. All of them make repeated choices to chase after him when he runs away, to trust him when he hasn't exactly earned it, to give him another chance when he doesn't appear to deserve it. ALL of them, not just Naruto, do these things multiple times throughout the story, and Sasuke owes his life (and thus his eventual recovery) to ALL of them, many times over. Kakashi disobeys Hokage-elect Danzō and breaks the law to negotiate for Sasuke's life with a foreign head of state. Sakura and Kakashi both have opportunities to kill Sasuke in the Land of Iron, and they choose to spare him instead. Kakashi stops Sasuke from killing his only friends at two different points in the story, which would have been a mistake Sasuke couldn't have recovered from. Sasuke would have died in Kaguya's desert dimension if Sakura hadn't saved him (Sakura, who knew that Sasuke wasn't even truly on her side yet, who knew he'd abandoned her for dead multiple times already that day). Kaguya's bone bullet would have killed Sasuke too, if Kakashi, with his intention to die in Sasuke's place, hadn't leapt in front of it (Kakashi, who also knew that Sasuke wasn't fully on their side yet, who also knew that Sasuke had abandoned him for dead earlier that day). Sasuke and Naruto would have BOTH died in the Final Valley if Sakura and a severely injured Kakashi hadn't chased after them to heal their injuries.

Remove any one member of Team 7, and Sasuke never makes it home. Without the combined efforts of all three of his teammates, he doesn't survive.  That’s the way it should be, thematically, for a story whose first and most foundational premise was the importance of teamwork, and since Sakura was just as essential to that framework as everyone else, I’m just as invested in her relationship with Sasuke as I am in his relationship with everyone else.  You can’t remove one leg from a four-legged stool without damaging the integrity of the entire structure, and for me, discounting any single member of Team 7 irreparably damages the integrity of the entire story. 

TL;DR: I love all of the Team 7 relationships, including Sakura and Sasuke's, because despite what some segments of fandom seem to believe, the text of the story never gives me any reason not to.

[wormchaser]

you are complaining about complaining too much while complaining about the fact that maybe people dont like you because you complain too much while complaining about being alone. just stop complaining and do something about it. talk to people. reach out. dont just wait for someone to come to you first.

i have tried reaching out to different people in the past year or so but it never works. i understand its my own fault for letting relationships decay because of my own insecurities and issues but that doesn't mean i can just will myself to think or believe different things about myself. it's a self fulfilling prophecy ; i think people don't like me so i don't reach out so people don't like me etc . i am sure you do not want to hear me list all the things i want to say in response so i will put them in the tags.

[kenmaiii]

MOOVEEE IM CURIOUS!! please do tell why you think each of the boys would flop in dating I'd love to hear an indepth! like as a huge levi fan I'm extremely patient with him as is because same hat with stuff he goes and struggles through but just know I have to put my foot down because he'll eventually be too much and won't accept we definitely got some unhealthy dynamic going on down the line

YOU'VE COME TO THE RIGHT PLACE ANON. kind of a coin toss here tho cuz I think every character in any property should have flaws to some degree! Even if they are a 'perfect' character bcuz no one can actually be entirely 'perfect', but its like. a double edged sword with OM cuz thats either admitting that the writers kind of did their thing for once OR is it just that they completely fumbled in approaching these flaws properly

and reminder this is not me saying they wouldnt have ANY good dateable qualities at all, just pointing out why you'd look at one of them and think Hm. This Is Kinda. Not As Fun As I Wouldve Thought.

BUT YEA. WHY I THINK CHARACTERS WOULD FLOP AT DATING U

LUCIFER: oh boy where do i start. I dont know about the rest of you but I fear that this old man is way TOO strict and domineering most of the time. (not always.................. of course. he has a silly side for sure but good lord...) 😒 like I am nawt trying to date a prison warden can you ease up off me a bit sir... I know the game has taken more care to editing his dialogue in a respectful way but my gawd does this guy demand things from you so much. Like VERY demanding in not tolerating certain things from you, literally it's his way or the highway and you have GOT to do it right too or else. he's like that with everyone sure but with the MC? dating? yeesh! I think if you are the type that doesn't like being told what to do or being talked over you'd get annoyed with him very quickly.

Like the writers unfortunately nailed having someone be so prideful to such blazing smoldering degrees that it ended up overshadowing a lot of his good parts. Getting him to admit things/wrongdoings is so very hard. He's VERY emotionally constipated as hell on top of that. I know he can actually set aside the time to say things to you while being genuine. occasionally. rarely. but he's way more likely to mainly ONLY be open while DRUNK. and while i think its kind of cute as a trait somewhat, are YOU willing to wait for him to be extremely real mainly when he's too drunk to possibly remember every time.

Speaking of getting drunk though he's also like- ridiculously horny a lot which?F?DSf is a bonus if you like that but it can come across as him being overly pushy in many many cases. but once again i can acknowledge the writers/translators have been better at adding in clear consent to choices. 👍🏿 Another thing is that you'd have to deal with him always being busy and overworking himself. and constantly. And as someone that also has very questionable sleeping/eating/overworking habits you are going to have a very hard time getting through to him about this bcuz he puts way too much responsibility on himself AND he has a tendency to forget that he hasnt slept/eaten. It would be a very nasty combo if youre ALSO like that (even if he would scold you for doing the same and take care of you)

Also he cares about them sure but he's most definitely always gonna be complaining about his brothers and Diavolo to you constantly. Are you ready to sit through that. More than usual that is.

Speaking of the brothers being a package deal they will most definitely interrupt any peace and quiet you and the eldest both rarely get, like the mood will just nawt be right im sorry.

Oh and if youre not a dog person I cannot imagine how you are even going to tackle time with him and a giant three-headed demon dog bcuz that would also have to be your baby by default. Walks must be absolutely something! Like I love dogs but really think about it. An actual life-sized Clifford. But a demon dog. I do not have the strength to deal with regularly sized dogs even

MAMMON: he was one of the slightly higher ones on that 'worst to date' poll (nowhere near Luci or Belphie ofc), but it was only people listing about money problems or going 'Ha. imagine sharing a bank account with that guy. it'd be drained so fast'. And yea sure I hear that. u-u All that guy really needs is someone to properly manage and limit his funds and advise him really (but I mentioned before that Mammon shouldnt just be limited to money or material valuable like the writers always do. His fatal flaw is his greed! and greed can encompass many things not just material (There's power, love, friendships, food etc).

His flop when dating you, I would think is being too overprotective and possessive of your time. As much as I love him he DOES overstep quite a bit with the 'being your first'. Sometimes he simply does not consider YOUR feelings on situations and schemes first. Though that's a flaw of most of the people in the devildom have by law of the Main Character Curse™. You must be put into situations I get that -w- But like I said yea he really does have a really big problem with possessiveness and always wanting your time and attention. Which- could get tiring if you're not in the frame of mind to deal with clinginess or possessiveness! Because I totally get that it's a lot for some people.

Harking back to the money thing though I genuinely dont think it'd actually be a SUPER DUPER MAJOR problem with your relationship? He's shown to be quite considerate on that aspect when it really comes down to it. Like he HAS worked a couple extra shifts at a job in canon just to save up and buy gifts before. And he's literally a highly sought after model! And surprisingly good at math when he has the opportunity (though it def still has to relate to him positively $$$) so he could stack his dough pretty normally. He just needs someone to keep an eye on his funds + other sources to balance out his Greed more! 😅

Somehow he manages to be both capable and completely hopeless also which is very impressive! You would have to help him out with a lot of things since he IS used to being spoiled, in a way. He does get treated very poorly by a lot of the characters BUT he clearly still has very lavish tastes and was both a very high-ranking angel AND demon so combined with greed he's used to the good stuff (thus me thinking he's fairly spoiled still- so he will expect a lot of you lowkey) Also I know I said he's well capable of finding his own source of income but he IS canonically bad at saving... and added with the thing above ^ well... If you've watched Abbott Elementary at all he WILL be the Tariq to your Janine, sorry!

TBH.. I cant really think of any other flaws atm besides over-asserting himself to your time and attention

LEVI: grabbing you by the shoulders- THATS IT THATS EXACTLY WHY ANON!!!! his flopping is mainly coming from the fact that he always puts himself down so very much!!! his head is literally his biggest enemy! its natural for people to have insecurities or doubts about things. and that can be especially heightened in relationships; whether platonic or romantic! but oh mein gottness does that guy put himself down so much.

I also struggle with the same things (believe it or not Levi was my wife for a good while like he used to make me teehee giggle like crazy so i get it i relate heavily). But at some point you ARE going to feel a bit drained or tired constantly hearing negative things about someone you care about and love! Supporting and providing reassurance or denying the negative stuff is a given, and can go on for as long as time would permit! But at some point you have got to start believing in yourself a little more and serve cuntress or something, Levi!

If levi was able to work on believing himself more and being more confident (which he has shown himself to do in quite a few cases) I think it can flop a little less!

His gaming time might cut quite a bit into your romantic time as well, especially if youre not the type thats super into gaming. Also considering that this is definitely his first real relationship (compared to the others) and not an ingame one I feel like there would need to be a serious chat at some point over ideals and expectations that he's picked up in game. Or how things possibly work irl. I must be honest, while it is cute for him to get so excited or irl achievements and progress with you he does unintentionally compare that to his gaming experiences quite a bit (even out loud in front of you). Not babying him or shaming him but it's still nice to talk about the things you expect or want relationship-wise and I know he'd be out of his depth with that.

his only other flaw (to some, not me 🤔) might be his avid infodumping and explaining of shows/anime/games/manga IF you arent interested in hearing about that a lot. What else do you guys have in common that you can relate with I suppose? A very minor thing though as I think many of us like a little infodumping nerd as long as they arent being pretentious about it! ^_^

<- she is not going into detail on Rurichan since there's too much debating on if its weird or simply his special interest/comfort character. them artists (especially in the anime) really keep trying to set him up tho..

SATAN: oooh boy. I recognize that Satan's character (ignoring Nightbringer) is for the most part stuck in a limbo of constantly having ties to Luci and his insecurities around that. Not necessarily a flop since I do believe that he would confide in you about it a fair amount buttttt he definitely loses points for constantly bringing up Lucifer. -100 EXP

People are always making him out to be extremely angry at the drop of a pin, which yea does get angry about things, but also he? don't be getting angry all that often? especially when he gets his little annual pockets of character development? angry and annoyed occasionally sure but its not his ONLY trait. now if he's raging 24/7 and could barely have a convo with anyone that'd be red flag dating flop city! but since he is not we can slide him further down the least to being less of a dating flop with you. (we're ignoring the NB version of him btw)

Now an actual flaw I can actually point out is he's also quite selfish... but he can surprisingly own up to it most of the time. sorta. kinda. well-

and to a degree he definitely seems to be lacking in awareness in certain social aspects. He's just a silly guy on the spectrum like most of his brothers tho: he gets a pass. Plus he's a socialite he's got a lot of fun connections, what does it matter that he can meow on command in the middle of this fancy dinner. Sure the other guests are looking at us weird and he's a little bit of a freak but he can meow-

His biggest flaw is being funny actually. That pisses me off stop making me laugh ✋🏿🙄 and if you hate him making cat puns i suppaws that would get under your skin too

ASMO: Asmo's insecurities are gonna get the better of him every now n again also, so while he's not quite in the same self-deprecating league as Levi, he definitely needs a lot of reassurance and compliments to stay grounded. So if that's not something you can keep up with it could prove to be a lot considering he's so obsessed with himself. Just like Mammon he has a lot of possessive tendencies, but it comes out in interesting ways unlike Mammon's ig. He's covertly silly with it since he'd say it with a cute smile on his face. He's a little insane also. I think it's just cuz the version of Asmo I have in my head is drenched in blood I hope you understand. Something isn't right up there (affectionate) so you would also have to get used to the most insane things being said with a smile. Not a flaw to most people of course but to ppl that are normal... well... it would be a lot

But Imagine youre dating him, you walk into his room and you see him quietly mumbling to himself in a ring of mirrors to cheer himself up. I'd be like hey um. Do we need to talk about this.

And to finish it off he does have a quite a bit of selfish moments considering he loves to put himself first (common theme with the ppl in the devildom hm...) and a lot of times where he gets unreasonably angry! But to be fair I love selfish angry characters IF they fit the right boxes, so I cheer whenever he gets like that bcuz I love studying him 🔍. Dealing with it in real life tho well... hm. who's to say how one would handle that! He's still my little sweetie tho and he would eat up the romancing and wining & dining and know HOW you need to be loved, there's just the other things to deal with when it comes to dating him!

BEEL: he's on the LEAST likely to flop while dating you scale honestly cuz he's literally just a chill sweet guy when he's trying his best. I think his only problem would be in not understanding you sometimes. Im sure he listens but will he really GET everything. Bcuz there are a few moments in game where Beel seems to be a lot more internally insightful even if he's not as vocal about his thoughts. And he's clearly very considerate abt the people he cares about, but ultimately there's a lot he just wouldn't get unless you sit down and clearly explain it to him. Bcuz otherwise it could come off as him not caring or being indifferent since he's pretty nonchalant. Blunt at times but still, easy-going and fairly perceptive.

And he's very much also a guy that just charges into things, though it's kind of a give-or-take thing. He is equally the guy that worries and stresses about something in silence if it's serious enough or he does not dwell on something for too long at all- which! could possibly be something that annoys you as once again, it could come off as him seeming too nonchalant or unintentionally dismissive. Or well. the things he charges into might have to be something you talk him out of. You're gonna hear shit like this on the regular and he's gonna wonder why youre staring at him funny

Another flaw is his sin i supposeeeeee but i'd rather not just dumb him down to guy who eats a lot cant stop eating food food food yknow -w- but well yknow. just how much WOULD his sin get in the way of things, bcuz it seems to consume him in a way thats wayyyy more intense than any of the other brothers sins interestingly enough

You'd have to deal with Belphie by extension too since they LOVE having the twins as a set that simply cannot be separated...... That also means having to always be dealing with Beel babying Belphie even though that man is very well GROWN. -100 EXP

he's crazy for saying this kinda thing all casual like also. do that in private man ☝🏿

Belphie: Sorry I have to bring it up again even tho i know ppl are dead tired of hearing about but i STILLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL think there shouldve been an actual proper talk and the appropriate amount of time given abt the killing instead of them moving right past it and MC being like 'it was just a lil oopsie we all have our bad days teehee ^-^'. if i got into a relationship with someone that tried and SUCCEEDED in killing me in this little magicverse i'd be like um. can we idk. talk about this in depth. You're not gonna kill me again in the future somehow right. Right?

Also I see and understand people saying that quality time, words of affirmation and acts of service are very clearly things Belphie likes since he's constantly asking to be around you/hear our opinions on things and ask if you need help with things (even tho he can be kinda lousy at helping out honestly -_-) but he also has a problem with demanding things of the player.. not quite in the same way as Lucifer, but it's close. Like if I do not want you to head over to my room to sleep together (literal sleeping) then why are you inviting yourself over? 🗣️📣📣📣📣LISTEN TO MEEEEEEE & STAY IN YA ROOM❗ ❗ ❗❗

He's a spoiled brat also! Like actual brat! Youngest syndrome is so very real with him, so if you're alright with being the main. well. person that has to do nearly everything then good'onya. I cannot imagine getting this dude dressed AND lugging this dude to classes all bcuz he wants to sleep in a little more ☝🏿 GET UP but if youre into being the main caregiver then shrugs

-10 MILLION POINTS DEDUCTED for being funnier than me also. thats a mistake no one should ever make ☝🏿

DIAVOLO: well. you see. so. there's. well. so um.

I do think he has a bittttt of an issue with choosing to completely overlook things. Diavolo is on a very thin line to me as a character bcuz I do think he is silly and fun at times and not 'AS' quick to read the room... and really is just essentially like... experiencing things for the first time and causing unintentional chaos because he's been so tied to his duties all his life but he's also like? Still very grown, smart and capable of quiet observation of others. (gestures to NB currently)

I feel like he would be analyzing you all the time whether you realize it or not (for good or bad). He's just a lot more observant about things than you realize so while he WOULD use this for good to spoil you he would probably be reading into you as a person way too much. But in a lowkey manner. Not manipulatively per se just,,, I think you are still mainly like an intriguing pet to him at times, or something to study and take note of. Like he really just does whatever the hell he wants for his own pleasure. He made an entire fake beach and sun just cuz he wanted a beach day yknow what the hell. I get it but how did he do that. What other powers do you have

Impressing you could come off as belitting you unintentionally (not always but sometimes). OKAY WALK WITH ME HERE- for example. That one scene from Ouran High School when Tamaki is making a big show of trying 'commoners coffee'. I know what youre saying ur sayin 'But Carly that sounds more like something Mephisto would do' nonono I shake my head. Mephisto is not going to make a show of trying it he'll just outright be recommending YOU a specially made blend of his tastes to put YOU onto better things FIRST. Diavolo's DIVING IN first though. Dia would absolutely think it's some great big fun adventure to try 'normal' human world tea or coffee and comment on it. But like, if i was sitting across from this big hulking guy complimenting tea I drink normally in a 'Wow, so this is what humans drink. How inspiring.' I'd want to shake him since it unintentionally sounds like im being belittled -_-. Give me back my damn instant blend! ❗ ❗ He's thinking he's bonding with you and trying something from your culture (which yes he is), but does it warrant such grand showboating and amazement. It's just tea man. Just silently enjoy a cuppa instead of patting yourself on the back for being brave enough to try human tea </3

Or. Or. demanding your time on his schedule at the wrong times. He's The Prince why wouldn't you wanna drop everything and have dinner with him. 'Oh,,, you're busy 👉👈 oh what a shame.👉👈 we (Barbatos) prepared a nice lovely dinner! 👉👈 However, I suppose its quite alright if you do what you need to do. 👉👈 Eating alone tonight, be safe 👉👈' And then he sends a picture of the meal with eye emojis, do you get what im putting down

One big flop for certain tho is him always being oh so busy. Like sit there and really imagine it. Dating a royal is already something but a Prince? Soon to be King? thats a lot of responsibility to juggle I know it'd get crazy balancing attention and schedules.

Also lets be real yall he's so used to being babied quite a bit, mainly by Barbatos. Barbatos is tough on him at times for his own good sure but he more-so spoils him still (hypocrite that he is!). are you ready to unintentionally be compared to that in terms of being able to care for Diavolo. Barbatos won't technically be competing with you either but as his main caregiver he'll still be inserting a lot of himself between the two of you. Also, that man is lowkey needy and has some lingering childhood issues you will have to be very careful with talking abt and comforting him for once he gets to a point to actually open up about it- so be mindful of these things

Also he's insane. But if you're into insanity it's probably whatever.

BARBATOS: I know I am '''''''''barbatos ceo''''''''' so i have been very very very delusional about him but aside from being so very 'malewifecore' i'd place him on a scale of 1 -10 at a 8.5 (1 being worst mostl likely to flop partner ever, 10 being best). Looking at his character he's very much set on keeping a very decent distance between him and the player for quite some time so i think dating wise there's just so many things he'd never properly open up about. Or it'd take so very impossibly long.

I remember reading his wiki one day and seeing this ^ (which btw theres a lot going on there.) so I feel like, even if he did really like you, he would most definitely always prioritize his work to the royal family first so.... he might potentially? be on the fence about further pursuing things with you even at one point??? Not to say that he isn't caring and attentive but I think he would greatly struggle with balancing his openness and affection towards you. And we must keep in mind that just like Mammon he ALSO has the Greed sin. He is a lot less likely to show it around others but he is very secretly possessive and makes it known occasionally so if you have problems with that it'd be interesting finding a balance with him. Secretly he 'will he or wont he' dude internally. But yea I've always thought it's so interesting that he'd say he just gives up. Makes you wonder and think more... but yet he wants to be bound by his lover. Very conflicting right? Which explains his struggles with desires and duty very well!

More on his duties though he's gonna overwork himself like crazy and it would be so tricky making plans or spending time together. Also he lowkey has insecurities about ONLY being tied to the butler role, much like how Leviathan will always bring up being a shut in. Like you are more than that cmon -_- youre gonna make MC feel bad! He must still be reassured a fair amount!

Something is also terribly wrong with him. but if you are insane like me you find that fun. Like oh he's tortured people? God forbid women do anything in this economy 🙄

Actual in person dating though <- she would be perplexed by his mysterious unnerving ways

SIMEON: Simeon definitely high on the scale of being a good partner so he's A LOT less likely to flop on this list. BUT, he definitely seems to hold back on sharing his opinions or opening up about certain things with himself quite a bit. 😮 And I feel like he might be the type to try and keep the mood content and peaceful so it would be a bit hard to talk about the unpleasant things. He CAN talk about unpleasant things, dont get me wrong, but I get the feeling he'd be good at dodging certain things and saying what you feel like should be said. Especially if he isn't particularly ready to talk about something YET. Big emphasis on the YET. I imagine as his partner, if you are aware that he's constantly being a bit dodgy about certain topics constantly you would feel some way about it since it's easy to recognize when he's doing it. This isn't to say he's manipulative or a dishonest character, but I find that it would take a long time to really get to his core even if things are genuinely sweet and easygoing between you two.

Also its a genuine pet-peeve for some people to deal with others that arent all that tech savvy? If you show him a meme on your phone he's gonna grab the whole thing, not get it at all, say 'who is this?' in confusion, try to zoom in and when he taps the screen it's gonna switch to a different picture/app and he'll be like 'What happened to it :(' which I think is hilarious and cute; but once again, could be something that genuinely annoys ppl, and annoyances over little quirks DO build up over time! Still adore him tho mwah

SOLOMON: Something is wrong with him. 🚶🏿‍♀️ That's his flaw. 🚶🏿‍♀️ Like something is just deeply wrong with him and he's way too casual about it. 🚶🏿‍♀️ He's literally that post where it's like 'yea something happened to your boyfriend and he came back all wrong. yea. sorry. we don't know what happened.'

If you're the type that stresses about things or worries a lot or finds that very easy-going people annoy you then well... Solomon will annoy you.

Im not saying he's not going to be attentive to you because he's shown to be very active and forward in a lot of ways, but I'm talking more along the lines of unintentionally dismissing things. Like for me personally I need a bit of guidance and structure and direction and if I don't see that I will be forced to take the lead. Just depends on how you are as a person really!

Let's get the most obvious thing out of the way though he can never cook you a fancy meal. Not everyone can cook we all have our different strengths that is for certain but if you don't tell him straight up, or constantly You're Going To Have To Eat His Food.

He may or may not be the reason you constantly get into situations also, in between Levi's games and Diavolo's chaos, Solomon is pretty much the main reason so many situations happen in events!? fhskfs I think that would increase in dating him even if he does actually do his best to look out for you in his own way.

But he's also like. Just a guy to me. Which is crazy because besides the mental illness + genuinely being playful with the MC, there is surprisingly a lot to him that is just. not touched on writing wise. or not explored. so I can admit there are other things that aren't coming to mind really. He's just there to me.

Apparently he's very forgetful with important dates also so if thats something that bothers you then well </3

MEPHY: of course in comparison to the others we do not know AS much abt Mephisto but looking a mile away you know his elitism is his main flaw. He would be very uppity with you and not realize whats wrong with that per se, even though he's so quick to call out the rudeness or impoliteness of others

his main flop is that he's going to be dramatic as hell at some point whether intentionally or not. he is definitely the guy to tell you he's fine while he's visibly shaking fists clenched trying to act unbothered when he really wants to complain to someone. He may very well go running to Satan or Dia for advice regarding the two of you if he really needs a second opinion without directly consulting you. So yes, those guys will also be privy to your business by extension. I know Belphie's also in the anti-luci league but can we really count on him for advice when Satan is most definitely the more dependable choice? anyways

Mephisto is also literally the image of the boyfriend walking with his girlfriend looking back at another girl. But the other girl is Dia. He's looking back at Dia sorry... that's his childhood buddy. He's so obsessed with that guy.............. You're gonna hear him going woe is me a lot over losing his buddy to his duties and the Prince always having his attention on Luci.... it just is what it is :/ Me personally also I just feel like I would get into mini arguments with him a lot. he is my rival and my bestie in my mind that I want to strangle whenever he opens his mouth

Like he is a BRAGGER by nature. And if you do not like people that brag about the littlest things he is going to get on your nerves. And since he also seems to come from a royal/rich background he is most definitely spoiled and parades through life with the expectation that others will treat him with appropriate amounts of respect. And due to his riches he could indirectly insult you at some point no matter what your financial status is, he may unintentionally make a comment that's in poor taste. Like if you take him to your favorite hole in the wall restaurant for a chill date he's going to say things even if he doesn't actually mean to come off as prudish.

He'd make an effort at least if youre getting him to try new things and he's not necessarily THAT uptight. He gets involved with things and has fun still!.... sometimes! But in reference to what I mentioned about Dia earlier with the whole commoners coffee thing this is another example to compare. Dia trying a burger for the first time would be like: "Ah! So this is what it's like to enjoy something this simple. The taste is rather interesting but I quite like it! Perhaps I will ask Barbatos if he can add this homestyle method to our regular menu :D" Whereas Meph is taking bites with his knife and fork like: "Hm. They really ought to improve the production cost and quality for these things. Oh, No I never said i disliked it, I'm merely making a note of something. Not bad though."

RAPHAEL: once again in comparison to the others we do not know AS much about him compared to the 'main' group. so im going off the little that i have witnessed in game and trying my hardest not to confuse that with fanposts but... He's so terribly blunt and unaware of things. He's a bit similar to Beel in that regard that he dives first into things and seems rather uncaring or dismissive about something due to his bluntness. But he's like BLUNT blunt, like blunt to the max even. Like this is crazy to me. how is it that LUCIFER is saying you're too much for him.

So he would most definitely struggle with being way too blunt towards YOU... it would take awhile for him to ease up on that I believe.

I'll be honest he kinda just. Sits there quietly really. I imagine trying to talk to him can feel a little bit like dealing with a brick wall, because I think it would be hard to understand what's going on in his mind at times, not to mention being tied down with his strictness.

And not to mention his sense of justice and penchant for casually mentioning violence seems to completely overpower him at the flip of a switch. I mean if you're cool with him threatening to use his spear on people that annoy you then so be it.

I don't know really, he's just so neurodivergent to me so i cant really call him a flop for that he just exhibits so many of those traits, it's just something you'd have to work on with him or get accustomed to

-ONE BILLION TRILLION POINTS DEDUCTED FOR LIKING SOLOMONS FOOD THO 100000000000000 EXP

THIRTEEN: once again in comparison to the others we do not know AS much about her compared to the 'main' group.

but she is most def on the LEAST likely to flop at dating you end of the list, cuz she quite LITERALLY is upfront about liking the player a lot more quickly than the others. she's literally so cute and just minds her business until OTHER people bother her peace. She does have tsundere-like qualities sure, but if you're direct with her she does eventually come around to expressing why she does what she does. And I don't think she would ever mess with the length of your lifespan just bcuz the two of you have a little disagreement or something. To someone else though for fun, sure:

that aside tho i can't particularly point out any major flaws in the moment i love her so bad. someone would have to sell me on it, but also why arent you supporting womens wrongs hm? 🤨🤨🤨🤨

[popsicle-stick]

(in regards to this post)

i think you're right on the money. off the bat, i'd count budapest as metropole - it's a large city, culturally reknowned, part of the austro-hungarian empire - however, from the viewpoint of the novel i'm not so sure. it seems like budapest (and really perhaps moreso klausenburg/cluj-napoca) are depicted as sort of....last outposts of civilisation, before things get Too 'Wild'. a sort of liminal place, if you will. which is obviously crap and we all know it, but bram stoker was playing off preexisting xenophobia, and to the western mind at the time, this may all have felt quite real.

but yes! despite this, stoker is curiously inconsistent in how he depicts the east and west. the first thing that strikes me is one of the very first entries of jonathan's journal:

Some of them were just like the peasants at home or those I saw coming through France and Germany, with short jackets and round hats and home-made trousers; but others were very picturesque.

it's interesting how he compares the rural working class of england ('peasants') and other western european countries with that of transylvania. despite the kinda gawking travelogue he writes here, there's an acknowledgement that this kind of rustic existence is a commonality across east and west. (only difference is how he notes the transylvanians have better drip. which is fair.) i think there's a very real want, by the english, to appear 'different' from those on the continent, particularly in eastern europe - the reality is, however, that this superiority is largely contrived, and jonathan himself notes the lack of difference between the rural poor at home and in transylvania.

then we have the largely slavic crew of the demeter, ill-armed against the Thing from the wilderness they're unknowingly carrying. in their depiction in the book and how their story is recieved by the english at whitby, they're just another example of sincere human civilisation at the mercy of dracula's inhumanity.

there's a strong divide between how the local transylvanians are depicted - as rustic, but kindly, and accomodating - perhaps not the metropole itself, but the last vestiges of it - in comparison to the roma characters, representative of 'wilderness', whose individuality is glossed over for the sake of a united front of nondescript hostile lackeys described as 'godless' and happy to serve the local undead warlord. this entirely goes against actual roma belief, which i believe was pointed out by roma readers in the 2022 run.

i honestly do think that while east versus west is a understandably oft examined angle, there's far more nuance to it than that, and i feel the metropole versus wilderness model leaves more room for those nuances. a footnote: it's also interesting to note that jonathan comes from exeter, itself a cultural centre yet still provincial, far from the vast metropole of london. it sits in devon, a very rural county full of its own obscure folklore and traditions, and (somewhat cruelly) stereotyped as backward and provincial to this very day. in this story of empire vs uncharted wilderness, it feels natural that he'd be from london, like every other english protagonist, but he's not. which is a curious choice.

[chryblossomjjk]

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