#I get why people don't like it because there's a huge power imbalance between them (it's literally cult leader x cultist)

[sykeboy]

AninPin Character (and dynamics?) Analysis part 2

The time has come folks

Pin and Kueshit's wedding has brought our girls to their breaking point and now is a great time to see how they are facing their biggest challenges so far

¿Remember I said I wanted to see what Anin would do when she didn't get what she wanted?

I love Anin but today she was cruel.

I agree that needing space is valid after heartbreak, however, giving Pin false hope and then kicking her while she's down was uncalled for. Pin made a choice she did not like so Anin punished her, and I can't help but compare it to aunt Patt's attitude, and the rest of the royal family's (not you Anan) attitude towards those of lower rank, however polite or harsh they might be, the message is the same: you do as I say I reward you, you don't I punish you. It's classical conditioning at play

Also the fact that Anin is standing on the stairs, making her taller than Pin while Pin literally begs her no to leave was a nice touch that keeps reminding us of the power imbalance between these two

I know I must sound like a hater right now so let's get in to the actual character analysis

In this scene both our girls are super triggered, this makes their personalities condense: get more rigid. That happens in order to give them a sense of safety in times of caos and percieved danger

Anin is confrontative, she confronted her family on the last ep, she confronted Pin on this one, and she confronted the situation about Kuea's wife. Anin takes direct action, this is the way in wich she thinks she can affect her reality. And SHE CAN DO THAT BECAUSE OF HER PRIVILEGE

Anin was not gonna leave until she had tried Every. Single. Thing. She could do in order to stop that wedding

So when Pin decided to marry Kuea, and then again today when she decided not to push back against the wedding Anin took that to heart. She is having a hard time understanding that Pin handles conflict in a different way than she does. Of couse she is heartbroken, not only is she losing the woman she loves, in some part of her brain she thinks Pin must not love her enough to take direct actions against the wedding like she does. She sees Pin's sacrifice as her giving up their love so she's sad and angry (she's also not used to losing)

Now let's do Pin

Pin has serious abandonment trauma, wich started after her parents deaths

When Anin came in to her life she was like a lifeline, promissing to always be by her side, so this scene was particularly hard to watch for me

Again, Pin is super triggered, Anin leaving feels like a huge threat to her. We see Anin has a big safety net, people who care for her. But Pin has none (maybe Prik)

So Pin does what she knows best, she lowers her head, apologises, tries to please as she can, she flagellates herself (she knows Anin is punishing her so she helps her), she says she is disgusted by herself because she chose to marry Kuea, but there is simply no way out of this for her

This frustrates Anin, cause Pin's obedience is affecting her directly, and she cannot actually understand the crossroads Pin is at right now, try as she might, she simply can't

Here Pin explains her line of thought very well, she feels powerless and the only way she knows how to affect her reality is by surrendering to what she thinks is inevitable (and she's not far from reality) this surrender can give her some solace, she has learned that she is helpless so why fight when you can't win

And again she self-flagellates for inflicting pain on Anin (or anyone at that), which is comonly thaught to us women and we see it again on today's episode when Kuea's wife says she does't wanna "ruin his future" by exposing his wrong doings

Still Anin can't understand Pin's choices cause their experiences are way too different and Anin has fought right? So why wouldn't Pin fight for their love as well?

So she takes action, she takes off her ring and lets it fall to the ground, she leaves

And this picture right here reminds me of:

Pin is yet again left to face the storm all alone

[pestercide]

HI I hope y'all don't mind me butting in here to say a few things /gen /notneg

I genuinely enjoyed reading these because it kinda gave me a deeper understanding of certain things!! But also allowed me to further understand the fandoms hypocrisy with certain topics (like being fine with one ship over the other).

This also got me thinking about certain other things that I've come up with or other people have come up with relating to shipping discourse in the fandom.

I think discourse is overall kinda stupid and I've grown past caring for it, but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy discussing certain things (and that feels kinda silly to say considering this is a topic that's literally about smashing two characters together Barbie doll style to make them kiss pff)

But yeah!! I first kinda started being curious about this after having a conversation with a mutual on Twitter over the shipping discourse in the fandom that was brought on by Holydemon, and a point that I brought up was the ship vs the artist's intention/interpretation with said ship.

Because a lot of the time, it turned out Batmeat was used/interpreted by artists in the fandom that were genuinely problematic and wanted to use it to fetishise abuse and imbalanced power dynamics in relationships. Which I concluded left a bad taste in people's mouths regarding the ship. Not to mention the characters included are both insanely popular and a lot of people are attached to them, so putting a character (Streber) in a relationship with another character (Bob) considering the canonical scenario that happened between them (one severely injuring and traumatising the other) made people uncomfortable.

And I think people don't feel that way about Holydemon, for example, because both characters involved are nowhere near as popular, plus the ship popped up as a joke between the team that later became a ship people began genuinely enjoying. I will say that the moment I saw the Holydemon content from the team I assumed the fandom would be in an uproar the same way they would have been with Batmeat. But,, people were surprisingly calm and even playing along. That's not to say there weren't people who were upset though, because people did see the ship as weird or problematic but not on the same level as Batmeat.

And it was that conclusion that kinda brought me here. That the perceived popularity of the characters and the intentions behind the ships including them is what makes people hate them/uncomfortable with them. I sometimes wonder if Batmeat were treated as a joke ship between the SM team would people still hate it to the degree they do? Or would it get the Holydemon treatment? It's not really something that can be answered because I feel like the bias towards it is too strong so I can't really make a fair and accurate judgement.

Oh, and as an extra sidenote. I remember someone mentioning that Batmeat was likely hated because we know what Bob did to Streber, which was arguably worse than what Gregor did to Moloch. And I was like 'yeah that makes sense!' at least until I saw one of my mutuals pitch the idea of Moloch x Michelle (no hate or shade to said mutual they're chill and I enjoyed the idea they had). We know that Moloch tricked Michelle and killed her in an extremely brutal manner (I mean we saw the blood splattered across the walls of the morgue...) then later impersonated her and her son to try and trick Gregor. And the thing is, people on Twitter were eating up the idea of Moloch x Michelle because of the dynamic that was presented between them (if I remember correctly, it was something along the lines of 'Moloch learning to love because of Michelle, but simultaneously trying to hide the fact he's the reason her son is dead'). I thought people would take that idea poorly, but people ended up loving it (myself included). And now that I know that Moloch not only killed but ate Michelle and Dexter, it just made the situation that happened in the episode all the more gutwrenching. Yet again, people don't really see a ship like Michelle x Moloch as bad or problematic because of the intention behind it and the popularity (or lack of popularity) of the characters.

(Also here's proof of that whole Moloch ate Michelle and Dexter's bodies in case anyone wanted it)

So like,, imagine a scenario where Bob and Streber aren't as popular, and one day a random artist is like 'Bob x Streber but Bob spares Streber because he admires his love for Halloween and his dedication to what he does' (again, this is just a hypothetical situation). Like would Batmeat still get shit or would people think it's a cute concept?

BEFORE I ASK AND BEFORE YOU CONTINUE

PLEASE remember I am asking this question because I want to know Tumblr's consensus on this ship vs the Twitter side of the fandom which is much more vocal about their thoughts.

I am simply asking out of pure curiosity and nothing else. And please don't assume any less of me just because I am curious. I don't want ppl to assume I'm this horrible person or anything qwq

Anyways onto the question:

What are your thoughts on Batmeat (Bob x Streber?)

Feel free to reblog with additional thoughts!!

[lawyer-of-louis-de-lioncourt]

Fans of IWTV that are problems

People who want to put the blame on one character.

Like sir. Uhm. How do I say this? In a way that can penetrate your mind?

They. Are. All. Horrible. People.

But they are also: All Beautiful People With Love All Consuming.

Both can be true. Because IWTV is the extreme reflection of life and people.

There is this comment on a fan edit on YT that was literally posted a day ago that I found.

I think we've established Louis is the problem. He is the common denominator in all these toxic relationships. Even his and Claudia's was an unhealthy mess. [Image]

And before I go on, on why this sh*t brings the movement down and I don't and won't tolerate I just want to bash the thinking of this person.

Let me ask you, reader and watcher, if a person in an abusive relationship lands in another abusive relationship are they the problem? Are they seeking to be abused yet again? Do you think they like it? Do you think Louis du Point du Lac went into loving Lestat because Lestat showed anger issues? Insecurities? No. He saw the best in him. He still fucking does. He loves the guy despite his problems. Do you think Louis fell for Armand because he was a gaslighter? A liar? A betrayer and clear child killer? No. He fell for Armand's ability to be soft to be gentle. He fell for his understanding. His clear care and focus on what he wants. His endurance.

"Louis is the problem." The problem here is that there are lies and manipulation from all characters. Louis is a lost soul who is more impulsive than the rest of the characters. He goes through life always seeking, seeking, seeking not really knowing what he is looking for. He also has fucking depression and some deep self-resentment.

But to say he is a problem because he is a victim (and he is because even though he has his strengths in the events between the Big Lestat Drop and The Trial he has been most hurt from both events more than Lestat and Armand (if we don't count Claudia because she was the MOST VICTIM OF ALL OF THEM DURING THAT ERAS)) is disgusting. It's victim blaming. To say he is a common denominator of abuse is stupid. He is the common denominator BECAUSE he attracts powerful love interests who are unhinged.

There is a huge power imbalance between Louis and Lestat. That was unknown. A power imbalance between Louis and Armand that was known but put aside because Armand gave the illusion that he was giving Louis the reigns.

To say Louis is the problem is blaming a wife being beaten, divorcing her husband and then getting in a relationship where she is beaten again. Clearly she's asking for it. (That's how this post sounds like) And. I. Will. Not. Tolerate. It.

Okay. Now that is put aside.

Like I said before.

These vampires are broken. One could argue being beyong repair.

The purpose of the books is to show monsters in love. Monsters who act on humanity but still take it too far.

There's a whole quote that says something about Lestat loving first and how passionate he is but in that love the only way he can show it is through violence. To break it.

We see Armand who is so loving and so f*cking patient. So eager to be loved. So eager to not be alone. Because he has been so alone all these years and then he meets Louis. Louis with a daughter. Louis with a burning, eager heart to be free this time around. Louis who represents everything Armand desires. To be free of all chains. And in wanting Louis he loves only him. Sees Claudia as chain too. Because Louis broke free of Lestat. Because Claudia, to Armand, is an extension of Lestat. Louis' capturer, maker, abuser.

He loves so much that he sees this as right. To get Louis all to himself. He wants this so badly. He even says it. "I want you more than anything in the world."

Words with weight. Words he meant. Words he carried through. He loves wholly. Obsessively. He loves solely.

And then Louis. Sweet Saint Louis. A father, a brother, a man who cannot exist or see himself outside of others. He is father, brother, lover, companion, son before he is Louis. This man who cannot exist outside others. This man who because of his spiraling self-hate drags others so he can stop the self- punishment. To get a reprieve. To put this love onto others because he can only love himself by loving and caring about others.

Who cannot love himself. Who drags the body of a stranger's daughter to beg for one himself. Who self sabotages and then tries to fix it. Who loved someone who hurt him because he can't let it go. Who thought he could love a man with burdens and control that was spiraling. A man who he knew felt the loneliness he had too. Louis who begs, demands and pleads and manipulates to get this fix of love. To put it somewhere. Even if it destroys the person he loves. (Paul, Claudia, Lestat and Armand) Just a little bit. Who loves then bites the hand that feeds him. Who loves so much. So much. He gets lost in it. Then drowns. Drowns in his failures. And drags others into it.

(Lestat: You drag me into your gloom. Armand: Will I be on suicide watch for the next 1000 years?)

And it's true to sense. He can't preserve his happiness. And sometimes he goes out of his way to not. Destroys it. (The killing of Lestat. The harsh words in 1970s to Armand) Because he doesn't deserve it.

This is all what it comes to:

They are humans stuck to live forever with these woes and problems and nowhere to put it. No where to put their trauma. So they make it themselves and then try to love with these jagged pieces.

They are fleshed out and more real than any character out there.

They are real. In their monstrosity. In their humanity.

They are horrible, they are beautiful, they are guilty, they are innocent. All of this. All true. All at the same time.

"I could not prevent it."

"...Was a band aid for shitty marriage?"

"This fascinating boy."

"I HEARD YOUR HEARTS DANCING?"

"Let me go."

"I love you with all of myself."

"Come to me."

"But she didn't love you. Not like he did, not like I have."

"I hate you."

"I know, I know. She's calling me."

"You and me. Me and you. You and me. Me and you."

"PICKED ANOTHER ONE OVER ME!"

"He's...a lot."

"I love you too baby brother."

"I'm not asking Arun."

"Am I all I have endured?"

"THE NAME! UNUTTERED in our home for 23 YEARS!"

"Could you imagine me? Without the burden of her?"

"I want you more than anything in the world."

"She called me an angel. Me!"

"Saint Louis."

"Are your companions?" "Yes." "No."

"I had a hunch."

"He forgave me."

"Why do I owe you my one act of cowardice?"

"Armand preserves my happiness..."

"Claudia is my coven."

"It was never about me."

"Tell her she's beautiful every morning."

Thank you for coming to my ted talk.

[sarahjacobs]

something that i think gets overlooked about david is how he's just as full of impertinence as jack is -- even at the start of the movie. from the moment david meets jack, he questions and calls him out at every turn, despite there being a power imbalance between them, in which david is the lowly new kid, while jack is equipped with much more experience in selling papers and influence over the newsies. and jack likes this about him! he likes that david's got some bite to him!

but david's impertinence is tamped down by his pragmatism, which tells him that he has to think about his family, that there's no use being in struggle when it'll only invite punishment from the boss and the state, making it harder to survive -- it's what has him saying in hard promises that "yeah, [socialism] sounds good, but it doesn't put food on the table."

which is why jack is so good for david, i love them as a pair because they have such a good opposites attract, push-pull relationship that's grounded in their shared core values. in this case, they both have an anti-authoritarian streak to them, but jack is much more willing to take high risk actions, while david is low risk.

and i find that people are often low risk due to them not having experience, knowledge, and trust in other people, and as a result, they think every action that isn't state sanctioned will be crushed, dismissed for bad optics, etc. i see this in david, too, when he insists that in order to strike, they need to go through official channels to formally become a union, otherwise they're "just a bunch of angry kids with no money" -- to which i say, that's the beauty of the wildcat, you don't need permission! fuck liberal ideas of legitimacy! and all signs point to jack being of the same mindset ("even though we ain’t got hats or badges / we’re a union just by saying so").

this interaction is just so special to me -- the way that jack pokes at david's boundaries, trying to see if he's got guts or if he's going to chicken out. and david does him one better; he issues a challenge right back, gives him as good as he gets. sends HIM off to an unfamiliar place to meet a scary authority figure, too.

which, you know, i think is kinda funny, i really enjoy how neither of them are nice (even if they are ultimately kind), especially not to each other. but on a more serious note, this kind of egging each other on is sooo important for political agitation. thinking about all the communiques and conversations had about this topic, a huge contributor to why people are able to be brave on the streets is that the people next to them are brave. and this shared bravery/terror/excitement feed into each other until it becomes a powder keg of emotion and action, blowing a hole into so called "normal life" and opening up a time and space in which something, anything can happen -- there's a lot of hope in this, too.

this is really just a long winded way of saying that jack's wild ungovernability is the spark of the strike and david's first foray into political action. that jack possesses a kind of charisma and conviction that david lacks, while david brings a much needed level headedness and political knowledge/intuition to the table. and they both have moments in which they're doubtful of the strike's power and unable to commit, but the other always pulls them back into the fray. they make each other brave.

and all of this is inextricable from their romance. there's one other moment i want to point out, when david tells jack what to say during 'the world will know,' fanning the flames of the strike, even though a part of him remains unconvinced that they can actually pull it off. and he's completely out of sync from the others, not singing or dancing, just an observer -- that is, until jack grabs him by the shoulders, telling him, "pulitzer may crack the whip, but he won’t whip us." it's only after this that david's relationship with the strike is reconfigured, in that he finally joins the crowd and sings along, now fully committed.

this was david's quintessential oh moment. to me.

[allastoredeer]

Can I ask your opinion on radiobelle/charlastor and radiodust? I'm just curious because, other than chaggie, they were like THE ships pre-show while radioapple was pretty rare, and now it's kinda the other way around, and huskerdust shippers finally getting fed

I don't really favour any Alastor ship over the other (huge multishipper over here) and I haven't found a problem that can't be solved or made worse with a polycule, actually (with Alastor centre stage <3)

AYYYE! Hello my fellow Alastor multishipper! And yes, of course! I'd love to share my opinions and thoughts :3

When I first saw radiobelle/charlastor I felt kind of weird about it - this was before the show even dropped. While I wasn't active in the fandom after watching the pilot, I still saw things here and there, and radiobelle never really did it for me.

Recently though, I've been coming across some super cute radiobelle fan-art, and honestly? The ship doesn't really bother me. In fact, it's kind of growing on me.

I know people like to rave about how Alastor is like a "father figure," or Charlie "saw" him as a father figure, especially during the "Dad Beat Dad" episode. But, like, it's really not that big of a deal. They are, in no way, actually related. There is no familial ties to them aside from words and perceived feelings. And even if she does truly see him as a father figure, fandom is THE place to go to change canon and do whatever you want with the characters. That's what it's always been and that's what it's always going to be.

Besides, the ship has a lot of cute potential and I'm so here for it. I think one of the reasons people hate on it so much is this weird, perceived power-difference/imbalance between them. What with Charlie being this wide-eyed, hopelessly optimistic, and sometimes very naive women, and Alastor being this darker, manipulative, seemingly "older" man. I can see how that would squick people out, especially with the idea of Alastor manipulating/using Charlie.

However, I'd like to argue that Charlie is a grown-ass adult. Considering how the aging process works in Hell (particularly with Hellborn. Particularly with hellborn royalty, considering Lucifer is a fallen angel who's older than time itself and yet looks like he could be the same age or younger than Alastor), Charlie could be leagues older than Alastor. Maybe she's actually a couple hundred years old in Earth years, but she's considered in her mid twenties in Hell years.

As for the manipulation thing, we've been shown several times in the show that Charlie won't put up with Alastor's bullshit, and that she'll even call him out on it. I don't think she's as naive to Alastor's manipulation or schemes as everyone thinks she is.

I'm not a die-hard radiobelle shipper or anything, but I think its a pairing that has a lot of cute and wholesome potential. I think it gets WAY more hate than it deserves. (Besides, has no one considered the absolute hilarity of Lucifer meeting up with his daughter for the first time in years, and getting introduced to her creepy, dark, sadistically weird boyfriend with an obsession with 20th century radio? Does no one else find that fucking hilarious?? Just me??)

As for radiodust, I wasn't weirded out by it like I was with radiobelle. Originally, I was just kind of meh about the ship. But also like radiobelle, I've been seeing more content of it and its starting to grow on me. An Alastor/Husk/Angel Dust polycule actually sounds kind of cute, and has the potential for a very interesting dynamic to play around with.

My general consensus: While I'm not a die-hard shipper of radiobelle or radiodust, I like the pairings and I can see why other people would like them too.

Additional, to those who do dislike these two ships, that's okay. Some pairings just aren't to your taste, and there is nothing wrong with that. Sometimes a pairing just squicks you out. That's fine. Just don't harrass other people who do like it. If you do not like these pairings, then move on and read/watch/look at something you do like. It's that simple.

I have mad respect for both of these ships because, like you said, dear Anon, they were what kept the Hazbin fandom going for years. Let's show some respect for our elders, people. Honor those who came before 🫡

[eastgaysian]

Sorry this is a dumb question but can you explain why tomshiv is not abusive? Shiv seems to hit a lot of textbook behaviours of emotional abusers

thank you for your follow up clarifying this was in good faith bc i checked my inbox yesterday right after getting high and was like man come on. don't do this to me. but yeah i can talk about it, it's obviously something i have a fair amount of thoughts on

on a fundamental level, i take issue with the assertion that there are 'textbook behaviors of emotional abusers' in the first place. distilling abuse down to a set of behaviors is, imo, effectively meaningless and totally unproductive. it's not the behavior of an individual that defines abuse, it's a specific and intentionally cultivated imbalance of power and control within a relationship. victims of abuse can and do resort to survival mechanisms that could be considered in isolation as 'abusive behavior', the point is that you can't consider them in isolation. there's a gulf of difference between the same actions when they're coming from a person in a position of significant financial or physical or social power over someone else, or when they're coming from the person at a disadvantage.

i think viewing abuse as a set of behaviors also encourages you to treat interpersonal abuse as if it's discontinuous with systemic abuse, which is inaccurate and unproductive. a key part of succession's premise is that, because the family is literally the business, the familial abuse within the roy family is inextricable from the broader systems of capitalism, patriarchy, and the sexual violence and abuse endemic to them. with regards to how the show satirizes and critiques these systems, i think it's very telling that all of the characters are to some degree complicit and/or participants in abuse, but logan is the only one i'd say is unambiguously and intentionally presented as 'an abuser' (whose abuse is not an isolated product of him as a person, but integrated into/inseparable from the capitalist system which persists after his death). still, logan isn't reduced to a one-dimensional angry, abusive dad, he's given depth and complexity. his continued insistence that he loves his children isn't treated as something that's untrue, but that doesn't make it inherently good, and it certainly isn't incompatible with him abusing them.

circling back to tom and shiv. their relationship is unhealthy, it's not good for either of them to be married, shiv does fucking awful things to tom and tom does awful things right back, i'm not questioning any of that. but at my most cynical and bitchy, what it comes down to is quite simply: shiv doesn't have enough power over tom to be abusive, systemically or personally.

the thing is sometimes you see people say 'wow, if the genders were reversed people would say tom and shiv's relationship is unambiguously abusive!' which... hrm, but really the issue is that. the genders are the way they are, that's for a reason, and yes, that does make a significant difference in how we perceive their relationship and power dynamics. tom holds very real and present power over shiv as a man and as her husband, proposing to her when she was vulnerable in a way that placed huge pressure on her to accept and then trying to get her to have his baby so he can become patriarch. shiv's the heiress with the legitimacy of her family name and generational wealth but she is continuously, unavoidably subjected to gendered discrimination and violence. she's never allowed direct access to real power - she has to rely on the men around her, her husband or her brothers, and if they don't feel like humoring her she's shit out of luck.

this doesn't cancel out like a math equation, but it definitely makes things much more complicated than shiv being an Evil Bitch Wife to her Poor Pitiful Husband. when shiv finally does push tom too far, he immediately, successfully, goes over her head to her abusive father to fuck her over. maybe shiv wants to be her father in her relationships and exert the same kind of control he does. but she doesn't and she can't! she does not have that power! she cannot stop tom from kicking back and his hits are significant. as much as she might like to pretend otherwise, tom not only has always had the power to leave in a way shiv doesn't, he had and has the power to fuck her up badly, and he's used that power. that is simply not the power dynamic between abuser and victim to me.

i also have to say that abuse is not always going to be definitive black and white. in real life there are plenty of unambiguous situations but there are also plenty of complicated situations, and applying judgments to fiction is not always straightforward. i can't exactly call someone 'wrong' for personally being uncomfortable with tom and shiv's relationship or believing shiv is abusive, but i'm very skeptical of the viewpoint and the motivations or assumptions that are often contained within. if shiv is abusive, she definitely isn't uniquely so among the cast, so you had better be applying that label and any associated moral judgments equally across the board.

[indianariesolive]

My Unpopular(ish) opinions/takes on Legacy of the Gods series by Rina Kent

Contains spoilers ⚠️

Starting off strong, let me just get this off my chest, I really dislike God of Malice. This is mainly due to the insufferable MCs; Killian & Glyndon.

First of all, I found Killian really difficult to empathize with. Sure, what his dad said about regretting having him sucks but that's no excuse to be an a$$hole. I'm sure that if a mid/ugly guy with no money & prestige did the same things he'd done when first meeting Glyndon (iykyk) they'd be mercilessly ripped apart by the fandom. Also that one line in his POV when he said that the main reason why he chose to be a med student was because that gave him a free pass to poke & prod into people's innards & watch them squirm in agony 🤢

Coming to the 2nd part, Glyndon. As a protagonist she was such a blank slate. Killian at least had personality! (A bad one but he had one nonetheless). Same can't be said about Glyndon with her wimpiness coupled with an absurd inferiority complex (despite being talented & surrounded by a powerful & loving family & friends) as well as her lack of a deep connection with her friend group. On a more serious note, I despise the absolute double standards with which she views Killian & her brother Landon. Both are clinically diagnosed psychopaths but she has none of the grace & understanding for her own brother but readily excuses her boyfriend's behavior even though both of them are the same person, different font. 🙄

Moving on to the 2nd book, God of Pain is one of my favorites in the series but not without its fair share of drawbacks. Even though Annika appeared to be a manic pixie dream girl at the beginning she grew on me as chapter by chapter, her POVs revealed her to be more complex & headstrong, contrasting the whimsical image she's perceived as (both by her love interest, the MMC Creighton as well as the other characters like her friends & family). She's a sweet, soft girl with a dormant badass side that can get dangerous when provoked & that's precisely what Creighton had to learn through the hard way.

Getting to the gist of my main problem, I really hated the way everyone treated Annika after the you-know-what. I mean, what else was she supposed to do, watch her beloved brother get murdered by the love of her life? Everyone cut her off 'cause 'she hurt Cray-Cray who's like our brother'. Well, SHE HAD TO DO THAT TO SAVE HER OWN BROTHER, YOU ABSOLUTE DUMBASSES!!!! Y'all brains weren't braining here. Also, that scene near the end where there's this huge confrontation Creighton has with Adrian Volkov & Annika with her quick thinking just snatches a guard's gun, negotiates & diffuses the situation without bloodshed was just chef's kiss. 😌

Also, everyone gushes over Lia & Yan's friendship but Yan's bond with Annika, how he plays the role of the fun uncle while Adrian glares & has to rein them in as the level-headed dad. 🥺

That brings me to this sidenote: Glyndon could take a page out of Annika's book & learn a lesson: How to Love Your Brother & Stand Up for Yourself.

Regarding Jeremy & Cecily, I don't have any major complaints. I like how Cecily put Jeremy in his place & made him grovel for disrespecting her with his trust issues. Putting his mommy issues aside, Jeremy was overall a good character for a dark romance. He's got the hot biker thing going.

Moving on to Landon & Mia. I have nothing against Mia per se. She's pretty cool. I only hated how the author ruined her bond with her twin Maya. Also, I'm kind of ashamed to say that I wasn't the biggest fan of Landon at first but then going through his POVs made me realize that I'd been bought into the anti-Lan propaganda by Glyndon. He actually cares for his siblings, unlike Killian. He just has an unconventional way of showing it. Plus there wasn't a huge power-gap/imbalance between him & Mia so that's another point in his favour.

Last but not the least, God of Fury featuring Nikolai & Brandon has got to be among my top favorites. I only dislike the unnecessary mud-slinging with the irrelevant ex Clara. Everything else was perfection. I never expected Nikolai to be such an adorable & funny character. Also something I find really funny was that both in this book as well as in her POV, Glyndon claimed to be the one closest to Brandon. The way she described her dynamic with her brothers was, "Bran & I are a team against Lan." And not only did Brandon shut her down in a gentle yet firm tone, also her dense arse never noticed anything wrong with Brandon like!?!?! Landon was the one who'd picked on Brandon's tendency to hide & repress his emotions & stuff, and he was the one who'd tried to help Brandon open up, even if his attempt was unsuccessful. So much for her being the one on the same team lol.

[distort-opia]

I assume you have read half way across, I definitely did and I always kept wondering would this scenario be possible? Would that play along similar way if ever happened in canon?

Definitely read Half Way Across. It's an iconic Batjokes story, incredibly well-written and in-character. And yes, I'd say that at least to me, it's pretty much exactly how I'd imagine this scenario unfolding in canon. A bit of spoilers for HWA incoming, for anyone who hasn't read the fic.

I think I talked about it somewhere else before, about how time and context are a huge factor to me when it comes to Batjokes-- and how The Killing Joke is a massive turning point in their dynamic. At that point in time, Joker hadn't killed Jason. He hadn't killed Sarah Essen-Gordon, he hadn't become so monstrous as to appear entirely irredeemable. Not to mention, Bruce hadn't accrued such an extensive Family by that time, which Joker hurt in different ways and which would make any current rehabilitation attempt led by Bruce personally so difficult. It follows that Bruce offering to help and Joker accepting that help would not have been such an impossibility then as it is today, in more ways than one. Besides, Joker would undoubtedly demand Bruce's involvement in his rehabilitation, if Bruce himself wouldn't take over with barely any prompting; after all, his offer to Joker in TKJ is not just "I could help you", it's also "we could work together". It shows that Bruce has thought about it extensively, has imagined a future with a Joker who's by his side.

But well... then there's the issue of the power imbalance. To be honest, it's been a while since I read HWA, but the reason why I never felt the need to write a story like that myself is because HWA tackled the major issue with any Batjokes rehabilitation story so well-- which is, put simply, Bruce getting to have too much control over Joker. Bruce's need for control is almost all-encompassing, and the reason why Joker is his nemesis is Joker's utter defiance of it. Bruce cannot fully understand Joker, hence he cannot predict or control Joker, and that's... unique. To differing degrees, Bruce controls everyone around him; he has back-up plans for his back-up plans in case someone goes rogue, in case he needs to take down close friends and allies. He knows exactly what emotional buttons to push to get the people around him to do what he thinks is best. But Joker isn't like that, and it's crucial to them being equals that Joker stays like that. However, if Joker is in Bruce's power as Bruce tries to "fix him" the way he thinks is best... the power balance becomes massively skewed. And Bruce's need for control would rear its ugly head in so many ways, while for Joker this would mean constant doubt and resentment about having to be who Bruce wants him to be-- otherwise, Bruce would turn off the flashlight half way across. HWA feels like an accurate way the story could go in canon because it deals with this, precisely. With the trust issues that would arise for both Bruce and Joker, with Bruce's need for control and ideas of normality. No matter how a rehabilitation scenario played out for Batjokes, if Bruce is personally involved in it, I do think this will always happen similarly.

Now, HWA isn't finished, and I don't know what Dracze has in store for it so I won't speculate, but I'm very much looking forward to how this tension between them would break. (And I want to make the point that it doesn't matter that it's a WIP, or if/when it gets updated-- this is an amazing story and we're lucky it's being shared with us.)

[namitomoon]

Why Scott Pilgrim dating Knives was WRONG:

(Disclaimer: I assume most people who read the comic/watched the movie/anime DO understand why it was wrong but I still felt like writing this short post because 1) some people still don't get it, 2) I'm bored and on a SP hyperfixation arc so I felt like writing stuff up so here we go)

Scott Pilgrim is kind of a douchebag at the beginning of the comic. It's not exactly hard to perceive it in the way his friends treat him. They don't hate him but they seem to be a little cold to him, as if they're tired of his antics.

For them, Scott dating a teenager while being a 23 years old adult isn't something ground-breaking for his friends that changes the way they perceive him. Rather, it's something they fully expect of him, which is why they are actually quite pissed off but don't really shout or yell at him.

If you notice the early chapters, you can see that most of the people of Scott's social circle dislike him a bit...except for Knives, his teenager girlfriend. And that's the thing. Knives REALLY loves Scott, she idolizes him, her eyes shine when Sex Bob-Omb plays, she tells him everything about her school and so on. Nobody doubts Knives is head over heels for Scott...but it's not the other way around.

You see, there's a reason Scott Pilgrim went specifically for a teenager. Stephen Stills says it out loud on the last volume in case you still missed it (get it, Stills...still, nevermind): It was easy for Scott. It was easy for an immature douchebag like Scott to impress an immature teenager with his whole "cool band dude" schtick. And Scott wasn't stupid. He knew. Which is why he did it. And his friends weren't stupid either, which is why they pressure him to dump Knives.

And you can see the after effects throughout the entirety of the comic: Knives is traumatized. But she is deeply traumatized. Scott dumped her in a pretty cold and abrupt way, then she found out he two-timed her...and yet, she is still deeply in love with him. The fact she becomes a sort of "Scott Evil Ex" serves as a way to warm us to the idea that Ramona is also a bad person by the way.

She finally lets him go of her heart by volume 6, almost a year later. But that won't erase the wounds Scott left there. For Knives, Scott was everything, a cool af boyfriend she enjoyed hanging out with. For Scott, Knives was just "a cute Asian chick" he got because that's literally all he could get. And even if she gets a boyfriend or husband (or well, girlfriend or wife) that actually respects her...she'll probably carry that trauma for the rest of her life.

And that is why it was wrong for Scott to date Knives OR ANY TEENAGER for that matter. Between an adult and a high schooler there is a huge gap in terms of maturity, worldview, objectives... Don't even get me started on power disparity. A high schooler lives with their parents, an adult probably has a full job and salary (although this angle was never explored because Scott is a fucking leech that lives off Wallace's goodwill)

It was never about the age gap (mainly). Yes, perhaps in many jurisdictions it's perfectly legal for a 23 y/o to have sex with a 17 y/o. But you still shouldn't. There is a potential for abuse, manipulation, power imbalance and traumas. O'Maley made Knives a 17 y/o and not a 15 y/o probably to make it less evident and leave it up more to the reader...and then apparently most readers, as O'Maley said in an interview, didn't really caught on. Hell, some people might even argue that the age gap as THE problem itself was a red herring. It was the reasoning. Which is why his final kiss with Knives after she is finally 18 felt so awkward on both sides. Because the age itself was never the main problem, it was the manipulation aspect.

[lucy-moderatz]

any thoughts on the recent influx of heavy criticism and hate carrie's received on social media from newer and younger viewers even since satc moved to netflix? like, how horrible she was for making her breakup with berger more important than charlotte's engagement? how a sex columnist was actually prudish and quite conservative about sex? her being 30-something and terrorizing a 20-something (natasha)?

I'm not particularly surprised, because for as long as I've been a fan of this show, there has always been heavy criticism of Carrie as a character. She has always been taken to task for being self-involved to the point of obsession and for the less than stellar choices she makes throughout the series.

Michael Patrick King once said in a DVD commentary of, I think, "Change of a Dress", that when shooting outside they specifically tried to avoid movie posters because they didn't want to tie the show down to a particular time. They wanted it to feel like it could be taking place at any time. I think that was a wasted effort. Society evolves pretty quickly and it didn't take long before the politics, sexual and otherwise, that the show exhibited became very dated (see the insulting depiction of bisexuality in "Boy, Girl, Boy, Girl" or the transphobic language in "Cock-A-Doodle-Do", for two huge examples).

As a Carrie Bradshaw stan (for better or worse), I will address these specifically, though:

how horrible she was for making her breakup with berger more important than charlotte's engagement?

I don't think she did that. She just found that post it note. It was a very raw, very insulting thing that had literally happened to her right before she put her clothes on to go to brunch with her friends. I think she was entitled to be angry about it. Also, she didn't even bring it up until Charlotte reminded her that she also came in with news. And later, when Charlotte was being hesitant about celebrating her engagement properly, Carrie was very supportive and most importantly, genuinely happy for her in spite of having been left by her boyfriend the previous day.

how a sex columnist was actually prudish and quite conservative about sex?

Well, she is. Samantha says as much in season two. She says, "For a sex columnist, you have a very limited view of sexuality." She is rigid in her definitions in part because she is so deeply insecure. If her boyfriend is bisexual, there are now twice as many people he can leave her for. This same plot creeps up in an episode of Ally McBeal. The late 90s and early 00s view of bisexuality was hugely biphobic. There's no way it can't be dated now.

I think it's a fair criticism of her, honestly, but I don't have a problem with it the way others might.

her being 30-something and terrorizing a 20-something (natasha)?

Natasha is 27 years old. Her brain is fully developed. She's an adult. Lets not infantilize her. When we talk about age difference between characters and the power dynamic that is involved, I don't think it's always relevant. In the case of a 40-something man like Big marrying a 20-something girl like Natasha? That's more relevant. Marriage is a different dynamic with different power imbalances that can occur. In the case of Carrie and Natasha, I don't think their ages are relevant. They're both adults and there isn't that much of an age gap between them (between seven and eight years).

Carrie did not terrorize Natasha. She talked shit about her behind her back and had an affair with her husband. These are cruel things to do to anyone, of course, but they do not rise to the level of terrorizing someone. Her attempt to apologize was idiotic and misguided and not really about Natasha at all, but that's the only time she went out of her way to seek her out, very much against her will. Did she treat Natasha like crap? Yes. Are we, the audience, supposed to think that's a good thing? Absolutely not.

Carrie is our protagonist, but we're not supposed to endorse everything she does. I get why people have problems with Carrie. And having problems with Carrie is, really, nothing new, so I'm never surprised, or offended, when it happens.

[showtoonzfan]

Yknow honestly, there's always talk about the emotional/sexual toxicity of Stolitz but I don't think enough people talk about the incredibly gross power imbalance between Stolas and Blitz, and Stolas with imps as a whole (him being incredibly demeaning, infantilizing, de'human'izing at times, often being incredibly dismissive or even abusive towards the lives of imps that are not his precious Blitzy). And they ESPECIALLY don't want to talk about how it's not a power imbalance based on class- because imps can be of any class as we see throughout the episodes (low-high- they can take part in many levels of work like agriculture, service, business, big crime bossing, etc). No so- it's a power imbalance based on race. Cuz, imps are not a class they are their own race/species and imps are considered lesser becAUSE they are imps- and we can inference they dont often get into higher classes also beCAUSE THEY"RE IMPS, not cuz they're like. idk. just a service worker. And as we can tell from Stella's higher up party, the Goetian are also their own race (all birds). So not only is it a power imbalance between a high royal and a low class citizen who has no power to (safely) say no to demand, but also a race based power imbalance (and I shouldnt have to explain why that's bad!!)

I think that’s my biggest issue right there with Stolas lovers and Stolitz shippers, most of them completely ignore or forget the fact that Stolas is above Blitz in ranking, making their relationship even more grotesque since Imps are at the bottom and treated like slaves practically, especially by the Goetia’s as we’ve seen. People also completely ignore the fact that Stolas was prejudice himself not only against imps but against Blitz himself, referring to him as a plaything and constantly treating him like an object, and let’s also not forget that he was the one who organized the full moon deal in the first place as well. But nah, since season 2 retconned and rewrote Stolas from a powerful manipulative and intimidating demon to a bumbling innocent uwu baby, no one ever brings the classism and prejudice up and it’s a huge problem within the fandom.

[kenobster]

Hey just wanna say i (as an individual who ships obikin) thank u for putting encouraging words about obikin even if u see them as besties. It’s really discouraging to see so many other shippers sh*tting on obikin people just for shipping obiwan and anakin. Yes ik it’s a controversial ship if u look at it closely but i just do it for fun (and love the chemistry between them). I dont shit on other ships (unless it’s really REALLY problematic) and like cant they just leave us alone in peace?? Same with reylo like yes it’s another controversial ship but again if u dont think and/or look too hard then just have fun with it.

I dont mind codywan im not a huge fan but i see why they ship it, just aint feeling it like obikin does. Same for the rest of other ships (except for dinluke i will die for it as well)

Sorry for the ramble (^^;) long story short that campaign speech u put for the silly ship poll was well put!

Hi anon, I am incredibly glad to hear that I could reassure you after all the mean things that antishippers have been saying about your ship. Ship and let ship is a crucial rule in this house of mine, in which Obikin and Codywan are both very welcome. :D

However, I do invite you to examine some of your own beliefs about this subject. Specifically, I'm curious what compelled you to say "I don't shit on other ships (unless it's really REALLY problematic)." While that's the part that most stood out to me, there is other concerning verbiage in your ask (i.e. the frequent use of the word "controversial" and "if u don't think and/or look too hard" which both felt like similar apologetic statements you use when shipping something you feel others will judge you for).

First, I want to highlight what you said about why you ship Obikin — "i just do it for fun (and love the chemistry between them)." To me, that communicates that you don't see any harm in someone enjoying a ship purely because it is appealing to them. Additionally, you say, "can't they just leave us alone in peace??" which suggests frustration that other people don't share your opinion.

Is it possible that the "really REALLY problematic" ships are enjoyed by people for reasons similar to yours? Is it possible that they, too, would like others to leave them alone and let them enjoy a harmless hobby in peace? What makes it acceptable to shit on their ships and not yours? Who gets to decide which ship is an Obikin-level ship and which is a "really REALLY problematic" ship? You? Me? Can you be certain that our definitions agree?

The first thing you should consider is what makes you feel like a ship is "really REALLY problematic." I think you'll find that most of it is a Squick factor — a gross-level factor. Maybe Obikin is "hot" to you, but it does gross other people out. Similarly, perhaps some ships, especially ones with components that might not make much sense in real life, are "hot" to others but gross you out.

For example, I'd like you to picture Chancellor Palpatine kissing AOTC Anakin on the mouth. Make sure your imagination includes Anakin's young boyish features and his barely-legal Padawan braid. 😉 Now imagine them having sex. In case you're having a hard time picturing this, here's some pictures of them to help you out! 😊

If you're like most people I know, I bet you're super grossed out right now. You might even consider Palpakin to be much more problematic than Obikin. But I chose Palpakin as a comparison for a reason! Because, when it comes down to it, how are these two ships any different in scale? Anakin views both Obi-Wan and Palpatine as a father figure. Both have mentored Anakin since he was 9 years old. There is a significant age gap and power imbalance in both ships. I've even read both Obikin and Palpakin fics that feature sexual activities with Anakin while he's still a minor.

It seems the only difference is that one tends to gross out the average person more than the other. Is being grossed out a reason to shit on someone's harmless hobby? For example, I'm extremely grossed out by sushi. Is that a reason to ban sushi worldwide? Obikin might gross me out, but I don't come after you or your fellow shippers. Palpakin might gross you out, but that's not an excuse to come after me. And maybe other ships gross both of us out, but I will not join you in going after them.

In other words, ALL fandommers, as you so aptly put, "just want to be left alone" and "enjoy the chemistry" of their ship without "thinking about it too hard." So until you agree that NO ship is problematic, you are inviting the same criticism upon ships that YOU like. Because anti-shippers aren't just coming for the "really REALLY problematic" ships; they're coming for every single one of them.

[greenmegsnoham]

"What's the point of Ship and Let Ship if people are...ya know...gonna ship things I don't like?!"

Oh, my sweet nonny... let's dig a bit deeper into this.

Everyone has their own belief system and moral platform. Everyone has an opinion over what is right and what is wrong, and frankly, never in our lifetime or any other will that opinion be the same for everyone.

We are all humans of different experiences that can think or believe one thing one day and then have a different experience that completely disrupts that manner of thinking. This can have huge life-altering impacts or something personal that affects no one but ourselves.

For example. I am vegan. I believe that using animals for food, clothing, accessories, money, etc is wrong. Not everyone thinks that way, and yet I can coexist in a world that is very not catered to this belief system. I can sit down to a meal with my family and still love them and respect them even if they are eating something that I won't. I have not been vegan since birth. I spent over 2/3 of my life eating meat, etc. I could go on and on about how "you and everyone should be vegan and here's why," but I won't. At least not right now.

But what I will get into is how we interact with creative / fictional content is our business. I know many of you are going to roll your eyes when I use "that same argument pro-shippers always use:" it's just fiction.

The average sane individual is able to find the distinction between what is real and what is fiction/fantasy. You know why? Because even if some days don't feel like it, we can manage our day to day lives working, spending time with friends and family, learning a new craft, volunteering, getting married (or don't), having kids (or don't) and also enjoy sitting down with a horror novel describing the disemboweling of a main character with our evening tea. We can play first-person-shooter games without wanting to kill actually living humans. We can enjoy the 'forbidden and taboo' through books, games, movies, and other entertainment without condoning those things in our everyday lives. Just because you cannot make that distinction, that's on you.

"BUT BUT AN ADULT/MINOR! That's just wrong!!"

In real life, yes. That is frowned upon. Though I've known plenty of 15 & 16 yo dating 18 & 19 yo from my teenage days. Freshman/Senior? All the damn time. The age of consent also changes from state to state here in the US (circling back to everyone having different opinions of right and wrong). That's just facts. But should a high school student and a teacher be together irl? YIKES. No. Should your teenage bestie be dating your dad? Hell no! All real life relationships should have consent and respect, which is hard to justify in adult/minor situations. Also a fact. That is why collectively as a society we see issue with those kinds of relationships.

But, I can also want to devour age gap/teacher x student/boss x employee/power imbalance/age play fictional content because it's... well... spicy as hell! You can't tell me there aren't themes that a character could use the dramatic arm-on-brow swoon "no...we cannot! what would they say?!" and not have your knuckles turning white gripping your book/kindle/ipad/whatever because you just want to scream "DO IT DO IT DO IT!" We know it's wrong and we want it to happen anyway? We find it thrilling and erotic to push boundaries and break the rules.

The number of times I've heard (or read) someone say: "I feel so guilty that I found that hot. I should be disgusted with myself." Why? Why do you feel that way? Because someone made you believe you should because they find your fantasies/kinks wrong. You don't have to justify to anyone why A B or C turns you on. And I guarantee you could walk into a supermarket and meet at least one other person who gets turned on by 'the weird wrong shit' too. Are they a threat to society and in need of being locked up for the safety of humanity? No! They just want to know if Wheaties or Total have the least amount of sugar.

Hell, I'm a sex-averse asexual! The idea of having sex with someone is really not appealing. It makes me extremely uncomfortable. But for whatever reason my brain says I can read my fictional erotica and kinks and get all hot about it. And I love that I can explore sexual desire in that way when it isn't something I can share with another human.

If it is enjoyed and explored in safe ways, like through fiction or roleplay with a consenting partner, don't feel bad and just enjoy it. Lord knows we need more joy in our lives through all the hate and judgement we are bombarded with day to day.

I'm not a Psychotherapist or New York Times bestselling author, but Esther Perel is:

Why Do Sexual Taboos Make Up Our Sexual Fantasies?

Why, indeed? It's almost like society wants us to feel ashamed and guilty for what arouses us? Who'd have thought?!

So, yes. There are reasons why Ship and Let Ship, Your Kink is Not My Kink and That's Okay, and Don't Like; Don't Read exist and have been around for over a decade. You don't have to justify to me why you like what you like or don't, and neither do I. We can coexist by choosing who and what we want to interact with.

So, from the bottom of my heart, nonny, I hope you never have to feel like what you enjoy is wrong. Because it feels like shit! 💕

man "ship and let ship" kinda stops working when ppl are actively shipping minor and adult characters together like hello?? same with the "dont like dont read" mentality, some shit shouldn't be fetishised maybe??

You've got a lot going on in this ask, anon, and it's obviously not asked in good faith. If I were a smarter human being, I'd delete it and move on with my life, but it's 9am on a Saturday morning and I'm still on my first cup of coffee so I'm just dumb enough to take the bait and respond.

Ship and let ship doesn't mean you need to approve of what other people are shipping. It doesn't mean you need to like what other people are shipping. It means that what other people ship is their business and what I ship is my business.

If I don't like a ship, I don't read it. I don't search out the tag. I don't try to find creators for it. I don't watch youtube compilations or stare at gifs or read meta analysis about how the ship is supported by canon.

If I don't like a ship, I just... don't think about it. It really is that easy. And when I do think about it, I might be annoyed for a moment, but then I move on with my life because guess what? Shipping is a meaningless hobby that I engage in during my free time and I don't want to waste my free time feeling pissed off.

I've seen a lot of bizarre definitions of "minor/adult" shipping, but even if we use the definition of an adult sexually abusing a child, it's still very easy for me not to read that story on AO3. I'm assuming this is all about AO3? It always seems to be in this kind of ask.

AO3 requires people to use one of two warnings in those cases. Either Underage or Creator Chose Not to Use Archive Warnings - or both. I use the filter system to remove works with those warnings from my search results and guess what? Those works might as well not exist for me because I've never seen one. And I've been on AO3 since about 2013.

The thing about these kinds of opinions is that they only ever come up in relation to shipping. I never see these opinions related to violence or drugs or swearing or whatever else you might find morally repugnant. But the handy thing about "don't like, don't read" is that it applies across the board.

I don't think I'm going to like the new Jurassic Park movie, so I'm not going to go to a movie theatre, spend $15, and sit in a dark room with strangers for two hours to watch it. I'm not going to read reviews of it. I'm not going to watch the trailer. If a friend of mine invites me to go see it, I'll pass. I won't stop my friend from going to see it, though. If they're going to enjoy it then they should - and they're not going to fetishize dinosaurs or paleontologists or the tourism industry when they do.

If you're not able to control your own reading habits, then you should probably be more careful on the internet. Use Net Nanny or other content filtering tools to make sure that you can avoid the content that you're unable to resist through willpower alone. But don't make your inability to stay away from things you don't like my problem. That's all on you.

[majaloveschris]

My take on these:

1. Why are we infatuated with him?

I enjoy Marvel and some of his other projects, I think he's hot, I think he has an attractive personality and (ignoring recent events) I think he seems like a great guy (kind, funny, humble, charitable, etc). Also during the pandemic I needed a new celeb crush to fixate on and he was the one lol. However I will say, a lot of the people getting in on this rs discourse seem to be more in it for the pure gossip and not because they're genuine fans.

2. Do you feel manipulated by his recent actions?

No lol. He doesn't have that much control over me. Even though I believe there's a PR element to all this, I don't think the rs is 100% fabricated, and except for the pap walk(s) I don't think he's done much that could be considered manipulation of how we view the relationship. I enjoy reading people's theories but a lot of it is a huge reach, and I don't think the ppl involved (especially him) are calculating their every move with their fans reactions in mind. Plus, it's on me/us for making up an idealized version of him in our heads, not on him. (Ok maybe his PR team is also to blame lol). I can't blame him for playing the HW game, and if you feel like you've been "manipulated" it's possible you're in too deep.

3. Have you lost respect for him? If so why?

A bit, but I still like him. Personally the age gap grosses me out (especially considering she was 23-24 when they started interacting) and I don't see why he'd start pursuing her other than for sexual reasons. Even ignoring that factor, there's still a huge power imbalance considering their professions and life experience. But then again men in HW are just *like that* so I guess I shouldn't have expected him to be any different. It's disappointing, but not surprising (once the initial shock wore off). At the end of the day he's still physically attractive and I do think he's a good guy, but my rose colored glasses have definitely come off and I'm able to see him for what he is (not saying I feel like I "know" him, this is just based off his public persona).

4. What qualities does he possess that makes him worthy of you being a fan?

Pretty much the same answer as question 1.

5. If you had a daughter or son that brought someone home with more than a decade and a half age difference between them would you be okay with that?

Definitely not, lmao. I can see why that would be enticing as a young woman, but from the man's perspective it's always questionable. Can they not get women their own age? Do they think women their own age are unattractive? Are they going for younger girls because they're "easy" and more naive? Do they even share any interests/can they find common ground? If Chris and Alba had met organically maybe I wouldn't be so dubious, but it seems to me like she was a thirst follow for him which is pretty icky.

.

[symbioticsimplicity]

I don't know how he tried to lose his soul, the show doesn't give much detail. That's not really germane however, its more that even after it was restored he spent years back with the Whirlwind trying to be who he was again. Angel is slow to change, he doesn't *want* to change, he just *has* to.

Even without counting the incident in the 50's against him, which I don't really see why you wouldn't but, there's still plenty of times Angel was a champion and chose to do some shady shit. Removing an entire day from Buffy’s memory without her concent? Removing all of Conner without even asking his team? Those are both enormous violations of trust and personal autonomy, which he does without hesitation. Yes, he did so because he thought he was helping, but he also didn't consider any other options first. With Buffy it was because he was human and thought he couldn’t protect her anymore. Buffy doesn't need protection in the first place, she's the goddamn Slayer, but also there are plenty of humans on her crew that do just fine. That was *so* unnecessary and once again a huge violation. The same goes for Connor. He was signing on to this huge powerful law firm that could do just about anything. He couldn’t have gone with a therapist and a facility set up to handle a supe?? There's a whole arc in Buffy about Willow doing pretty much the same thing and alienating of her friends over it.

Also even if Dru and Darla *didn't* take their time, the fact remains that he still allowed them to kill a whole bunch of people while it was his job not to. Enemies or not, his job is to protect people. Heroes don't get to pick and chose who's worth saving.

My idea is that the demon is the human they were previously, but unleashed. And canon does more to support that idea than to disprove it. Darla, when resurrected by Wolfram and Hart is the same *person* we saw her be as a vampire, albeit with the ability to feel bad for her past transgressions. And then when she was turned *again* she went right back to being the same vampire she always was, once again illustrating that idea. Harmony is literally exactly the same as she was when she was human, but if anything nicer. And of course Spike, who throws the biggest wrench in Angel's story. Angel is *known* for lying and manipulating people, its what makes him so dangerous, why would it be so hard to believe he lied about that too? I mean, given that his goal was to join the good guy team, he would have needed them to trust him somewhat. If they believed having a soul made him an entirely different person, that makes his goal attainable. There was no way for them to prove otherwise, he'd been the only vampire with a soul at the time in recorded history. We know Angel will lie to get what he wants, and we know that he's very very *very* good at acting when he wants to.

As for sleeping with Buffy I'm sorry I'm still gonna have to fight you tooth and nail. Its not the physical age difference thats the problem (even though his 19 to her 15 or 16 would STILL be illegal), its the power imbalance. Angel is experienced and he knows what hes getting himself into. Hes got a wildly different view point than she does, and therefore could easily use that to manipulate Buffy. Which he *did*. Even without the possibility of his soul falling out, Angel damn well knows he has no business being with a girl that young. They are *not* peers, there's no way they could be with the years yawning between them. For them to have been peers, Buffy would have needed to have knowledge both of how she wants a relationship to work between them, and of herself (personal boundaries, likes, dislikes, goals). Every reason there is for older people not to sleep with teenagers is still there for them, it has nothing to do with being physically unmatched. As much as I'm not a fan of him, Xander would have been a more appropriate choice. But the show was actually *trying* to illustrate why its bad for adults and teens to be together. Angel becoming Angelus was a metaphor for men changing once they get what they want, and everything he put her through was similarly a metaphor for the way someone older can manipulate a younger person, play mind games with them, and hurt them while the younger party doesn't really know what to do or how to stop them. I'm not budging on this point, this was Angel's bad 100%.

As to the redemption arc, that's my point exactly. Why seek redemption for something you weren't responsible for? I mean you *could* but its not really redemption at that point, since the actions taken to atone aren't being made by the guilty party. From a narrative perspective that's much less satisfying. And while it would preserve him as an unreliable narrator, that's not really what my point was with that. Angel seeking redemption for the actions taken by a demon within his body that hes neither responsible for nor affiliated with is... alright. Cool. Doesn't really fit with how he choses to go about that redemption, kinda makes you wonder why he fucks it up so badly so often if he's just a good dude doing his best. Angel trying desperately to distance himself from his worst traits and atone for everything he's done when those traits were left unrestrained by his own conscience? Much more compelling, explains a lot more about him. Makes his backslides more painful, and his victories sweeter. Also doesn't cockblock the lore shown by every other important vampire in the show.

My original point was that Angel, souless or not could have *chosen* not to be as evil as he was, could have chosen not to be evil at all, but didn't and that caused him to feel the guilt that drives him as Angel. None of this has negated that idea to me.

The only way the soul lore works for me as a source of guilt is if vampires can choose *not* to be evil. If they're just mindless demons who take over a host's body after they die, it makes no sense to feel guilty about the actions taken after that.

The demon isn't a separate thing, the person is still who they were when they died, demons just don't have inhibitions. So whatever it is they *want*, they do. Whatever it is that is the core of that person wants most is what is exemplified most in their demon form.

So in Angel's case, the guilt comes from not only having wanted those things and having done them, but from *having had the option not to.*

[lordymaru]

I'm about to refute this entire essay with the simple explanation being:

The only interaction we've seen of these two is when she's a freaking 8 year old. Your self insert shows no boundaries.

And this is probably the last time I'll make a post about the stupidity behind the way the pair is viewed:

Note: I know there's people out there with a brain who ship these two in a more conventional way. In the end you do you, ship whatever you want, no one can prevent you from doing that, just don't be gross about it.

One of the parts being the Significance of their first encounter:

She’s a poor peasant girl who’s suffered immense trauma, suffering, and loneliness. Her initiative to help Sesshomaru came from her generosity

Exactly, she's alone for her family had been killed before her eyes, the villagers treat her like garbage. When she meets Sess he's wounded and simply in a bad state, both mentally and physically. Both of them are, the difference being he's a demon, a powerful one and for him to have ended in such a bad shape only stabbed at his pride- Rin on the other hand is a child, a human tiny child who is vulnerable and to him she poses no threat. Both of them are weak then.

At this point, it’s observable that despite knowing her story, her scars, and her difficulties, humans do not even empathize, let alone sympathize with Rin. It is the feudal era, after all. She’s a young, disabled orphan and the villagers only see her for what she lacks: a voice, a family, and a place of belonging.

Again with your feudal era shit. I can assure you the world is just as ugly today as it was before you and I existed. Next.

When he asks about her bruises, this is the first time anyone had ever afforded her a second glance.

This was a huge step forward for Sess, a huuuuuuge one for he showed interest in another living creature, not just any creature but a human. And for her it was probably like Christmas, for no one had showed her any mercy or interest. Ok you get a point. But oh, boy, how I'm about to spit on the next one:

The audience can see Sesshomaru calculate her body language, recognizing that she is mute. Instead of pressing her further or ignoring her outright, he attempts to comfort her (in his own way), making her feel that it is okay if she chooses not to answer him; that her desire to reply to him should only be a desire, not an obligation. I think, on one hand, that was the first moment of something that would resemble compassion that Sesshomaru had ever administered, trying to put himself in her shoes — if someone had asked him to do something that required, for example, his left arm, he probably would have appreciated them saying “you don’t have to do it if you don’t want to” so to provide him agency for something that he actually cannot do. And the same goes for Rin. He recognizes her disability, maybe even resonates with it and decides to empower her with a choice. Choice is important when it comes to the Sesshomaru/Rin dynamic and it’s a word that will come up often. 

Ok why are you comparing the loss of his arm to her not being able to talk? Not all disabilities are the same, you moron. Or am I dumb for thinking this way? If so, feel free to call me out on my lack of common sense kr whatever you wanna call it. Sess physically couldn't do shit with his left arm because well- it was gone! That's a physical disability. Rin had "lost" her voice after what she witnessed and so she wouldn't speak anymore. Have you heard of Psychogenic Dysphonia? If not, you can click here and give it a reading or do your own research. The more you know: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0892199703000158

So you say he "empowers her with a choice" that is "important when it comes to the Sesshomaru/Rin dynamic" let me get this straight, a choice because why? She's a child? A female? Because you said so yourself, it's the Feudal Era after all and therefore women had no choice in life, no voice, no agency, no nothing. So he was being magnanimous then? You know... This is where you start edging into the gr00ming territory. Can't you see? No? Alright, moving on.

BRUH WHAT THE FUCK?! Are you fucking good? See how you self insert? Bye. Next

The next time Sesshomaru sees Rin, it is suggested that he actively sought her, whether it be by curiosity or concern for well-being

He did... It is not suggested, he actually did asdfhkl. For both curiosity and he probably was worried. He also states he wants to test out his sword, what a perfect chance to do so for Rin is pretty much dead and that's the only way to make his sword work. So she was both being a guinea pig and an itch he wasn't quite sure how to scratch. Next.

Silence Rin.

Rin screams endlessly, annoying Sesshomaru. Firstly, this is the first time we hear him call her by her name. Secondly, Sesshomaru is visibly annoyed by her noises, however, he does not tell her to “shut up” as he normally would with Jaken or even InuYasha. He simply says “enough of that Rin, stop it.” (In Japanese he says, “Silence, Rin. You make too much noise.”) Even analyzing the Japanese dialogue, it is evidently softer than Sesshomaru’s usual ‘kisama’ (貴樣) manner of speech that we see depicted usually. This is the first time he’s had a companion who is not a demon, someone with compassion, and who has had his general best interests at heart with no expectations in return. His softer tone is a logical deduction to make.

Ok... "someone with compassion, and who has had his general best interests at heart with no expectations in return." Bruh... As if he would even consider meeting someone's expectations. Are you sure you're talking about Sess? Another thing is, he always speaks in a calm tone, he rarely yells or loses his composure- he had no reason to be rude to her either, you're excusing his regular behavior simply because she ain't Jaken. Anything else?

Rin doesn't change Sesshomaru overnight, it's a gradual and long process

Well duh!!! Just like you don't lose the pounds you gained from eating in one sit 12 donuts a week ago. Stating the obvious and for what? What's exactly your mf point?

The silence part is important, idk how to tell you there is a power imbalance in their relationship from the moment he tells her to be quiet. He didn't say please, he didn't ask her to, he told her to be quiet. Like a parent would, if I could count the times my mom told me to shush.... That's your first indicator he is not her friend, he is not her equal.

Letting you Be Yourself: The Panther Demon Arc

the first frame the audience sees in the anime sets the scene, painting the Sessshomaru entourage in a serene manner, indicating a level of comfort between group members (episode 75). This is vastly different from our last depiction of Sesshomaru and Rin’s relationship. In episode 44, he was unable to withstand her (albeit annoying) childish antics. But here, it’s observable that Sesshomaru can accept her and her package of unconventional fun. Not only does he tolerate and even more so, accept Rin, but he accepts her influence on his vassal, Jaken and allows them to be free around him.

Is called developing patience. I can assure you that when you're a parent or an older bro/sis and your kid/younger sibling is noisy af you either learn to tolerate that or get used to it for kids are kids abd you have to let them be kids. Next.

She's a child, she's not stupid.

The Abducted Rin: Calling her Name

The respect that Sesshomaru shows Rin is insurmountable. However, the InuYasha franchise is clever to portray the subtlety of Sesshomaru’s respect for her. KV on Twitter points out how highly he regards his companion and never relegates her to anything less than the value that she as a person embodies (@KVndie via Twitter). He consistently humanizes her. 

He only sees how important she is to him after her ass dies a second time. What do you mean? He respects her enough to not coddle her, she is independent and taught her to be self sufficient from the very start. That's respect. He consistently humanizes her because... She ... Is ... Human! OMG WHAT A SHOCKER!

As Naraku remarks on his hostage to Sesshomaru, "Naturally, the girl you're looking for is not here…,” he continues, “the girl is in custody outside of the castle..." Naraku never makes an attempt to give her personhood, leaving her unnamed, disposable, and relegating her to a mere "girl." But Sesshomaru doesn’t take any of this. He is a cold-hearted Daiyokai, yet he still makes an effort and upholds his principle to refer to her as Rin — not a replaceable “girl.”

Naraku is a mf genius. It didn't quite click until now he wanted to see if she was important or not to him and to what extent. For he planned his moves that way, making people turn against one another. While he wouldn't have made Rin turn against Sess he set everything up so he would end up wanting to kill Kohaku and in doing so, Inugang would have engaged against Sess.

Sesshomaru’s insistence on using Rin’s name isn’t only highlighted in this isolated incident though. It pays off. It is an ongoing theme in their dynamic throughout the series.

That's her name ... How you want him to call her? Baby?

I could go on and on but... This is a fucking essay. And then I stumble against more bullcrap:

The second point I want to highlight here is Sesshomaru’s reaction to Rin’s fall and her risky expedition. At this point, it’s unquestionable that Rin has a special place in his heart.

Of course she has a special spot in his heart. I won't deny that. What worries me is how you're trying to justify the way she's important to him since she was a child. As if his way of seeing her had changed.

I'm gonna disagree by agreeing with you in a few pointers. Kagome and Kikyo were rivals, they both romantically love the same guy. Kagome being the only one who could save Kikyo chooses to help her, knowing damn well Inuyasha would have suffered if Kikyo had died- further more, if it was in Kagome's hands to do something about it.

Rin on the other hand, I will applaud to her how she grew past her fear of Kagura after being kidnapped by her, she saw her body in the river and said fuck it and did her best to try to pull her from the water. I loved how stubborn and brave she was, even tho Sess had to pull everyone out of the water- she deserves a gold star. You go baby girl!!!

Rin later makes a cheeky comment, noting Kagura’s romantic interest in Sesshomaru. Jaken brushes this off as childish naivety. But for the spectator, this establishes two things: (1) That Rin does not see Kagura as a rival for Lord Sesshomaru’s attention, let alone affection; and (2) that Rin is still a child. Rin is certainly a child, with a youthful and fresh outlook on life that brings out the best in people. But even as a child, her relationship with Sesshomaru is incredibly healthy, clear, and surprisingly communicative.

Why would she? She's not a spoiled brat

Nah? I thought her double D indicated otherwise. OF COURSE SHE'S A MF CHILD.

Why do you keep mentioning is healthy? Do you need reassurance of it? Communicative in what way? Cuz if you wanna talk about communication let's talk about how he didn't even acknowledge her ass when she gave birth. He didn't even say her name, didn't even look at her. Tell me now how they are communicative and healthy?

I could go on, I really but all I'm getting from this load of bullshit I'm forcing myself to read is how you do in fact need to reassure yourself thr ship is god tier and is... How you said it was? Ah, healthy.

Anyways, thanks for reading and if you see any typo ... My apologies, I tried. Also if you have any input or I was out of line in some way, my apologies once more.