#I REALLY DID GHOSTMAKE THIS.

[martyrbat]

batman: the knight #6 • batman annual 2022 • dc pride 2023

[ID: Three panels from separate comics to draw parallels. In the first one, Minhkhoa Khan and Bruce Wayne are fighting in the snow after their mentor, Luka, was shot dead by Minhkhoa. Minhkhoa throws him into the ground next to Luka's bloodied corpse as he tells Bruce, “Luka was a master painter... who threw his brushes away.” Bruce shouts that he's insane but Minhkhoa corrects him, “No, Bruce. I just have vision... you and I could be the greatest artists alive... (— but you're too much of a coward!”)

In the second photo, Bruce and Minhkhoa are fighting a group of armed criminals together some time in the near future. Minhkhoa has his Ghostmaker mask on that covers his upper face as Bruce wears a black mask that's similar to Zorro's. They're in the middle of a quarrel with Bruce telling Minhkhoa not to be reductive before Minhkhoa continues talking, “This is an art. An artist doesn't let someone else handle their paintbrush. We've given our life to this. You can't just bring in others and expect them to be able to do what we can.” Bruce argues, “What's the point of it if we don't help others and share what we learn?”

The third photo is a closeup on Ghostmaker's helmet after he compared a battle to a dance. His internal narration reads, ‘Some say I feel nothing. But I appreciate art. I respect it.’ END ID]

[hauntingblue]

Re reading ghost stories and thinking about gotham war and if khoa is going to be in it.... because Red hood is siding with catwoman and I wanna see them fight kinda

[pinkiemachine]

BATMAN: GOTHAM FILES - SEASON TWO

OKAY, so this season starts off with a spectacular BANG! Joker makes his debut, causes a ton of mayhem for the Dynamic Duo, but of course, in the end, the heroes save the day. Here’s some sketches of Joker I’ve been working on…

Still not sure if this is what I wanna go with. Like I said, work in progress.

Anyway, what really matters is what happens after Joker gets defeated. He’s thrown into Arkham Asylum, for the Criminally Insane, and the doctors there attempt to treat him. Namely, one Harleen Quinzel. This does not go well. Instead of her being able to bring Joker back to sanity, he manipulates her and gets her to cross over to the insane side, becoming his twisted on-again off-again lover, and they break out of Arkham together.

But this is all happening in the background while the rest of the season goes on. The real highlight of Season 2, aside from revisiting classic villains and meeting new ones, is the arrival of BATGIRL! Now, Barbara Gordon (17) was going to get a law degree after high school, but after seeing what sort of corruption there was in Gotham from her father’s police job, she’d lost faith in the system. Instead, she became inspired by Batman to take matters into her own hands. Batman initially tries to tell her to stop—she’s just going to get herself hurt—but then she manages to make a strong case for herself. She’s smart, she’s been taking self-defence classes since she was three, she knows the criminal justice system, she’s passionate about making a difference, Robin’s allowed to fight crime despite being four years younger than her, and… she’s not going to take no for an answer. Batman begrudgingly agrees to let her help, especially after she saves his life on a mission, but he has one condition: no crime fighting alone. She must always have backup. He’s not about to let the police captain’s—now Commissioner’s—daughter get hurt on his watch. Because he knows who she really is. Because he’s a detective.

So now they’re the fanatic threesome. I should also mention that there is NO Dick X Barbara. He’s 13 now, she’s 17, both going on 14 and 18. He’s like a little brother to her. Moving on.

Some time goes by, more baddies get thrown into Arkham, and then… Bruce meets Catwoman. It happened on a cold night when Bruce was soloing it as Batman. Dick was behind on his homework, Barbara was taking time off to rest, so he was all by himself when he got called in to investigate a series of expert burglaries/murders. He had to admit, she was good at what she did. Barely a trace of her was left behind… but barely was enough. He figured out her next target and then had her captured in one fell swoop. Catwoman. It’s not like she was a brawler or anything, just a cat burglar. It was during their ride in the Batmobile later that they got to talk some and learn about each other. Bruce questioned her about the two other robberies—ones where people died—and Selina pleaded innocent. She never killed people. Then, surprising Batman, she managed to escape from right under his nose. They would meet again, though, when he and Selina teamed up to catch the other burglar who had attempted to frame Selina with murder. The two had formed something of an attachment. Selina found Bruce attractive, and Bruce thought she had some good in her (and was also attractive), and they both found themselves wanting to see each other again some time. Purely for work purposes. Bruce only wanted her to face justice. There was totally NO OTHER reason. *cough cough* I have a post where I talk more about her and her relationship with Bruce.

Moving on, there’s an episode where we briefly head to Star City and meet The Flash, but THEN we get introduced to Ghostmaker. A fellow vigilante from Bruce’s past. His rival… and friend. He had also been one of Ra’s’s top students and they had fought often, but the main difference between them was that Ghostmaker was willing to kill. Bruce wasn’t. They have some funny, witty, exciting times when he comes to visit Gotham, but in the end, Bruce establishes that Gotham is his city. And there will be no killing in his city.

Grande finale sees the return of the Joker, alongside Harley Quinn’s debut!

And guess who they’re working alongside? TONY ZUCCO!! Dick has his revenge arc, trying to chase Zucco down, but in the end… all those years of Bruce’s training keep his hands from committing the most horrible act. I mean, Dick does rough him up, but in the end, Zucco gets sentenced to life in prison. Now Dick can finally let go. He can finally visit his parents’ grave with a clear conscience. They would be proud of him for what he did. They would be proud knowing their son was not a killer.

So that’s season 2 :)

Part 3 👇

Part 1 👇

More of Bruce and Selina 👇

[missbluesunflowersstuff]

Some Dick Grayson headcanon

I did some headcanon based in canon stuff and also random things, this is more around the batkids and Dick . Please respect

All batkids lie to Batman, ALL.OF.THEM and Dick is the one who lie to Batman and the others Robins (he is the oldest child guys, he will use his power for evil for fun)

He worries about Jason a lot and Dick will be happy in listen if Jason needs to talk

He also worries about Damian but for a different reason, and he still has Damian's adoption papers stored in his house (he mentions about wanting to adopt Damian in Nightwing 11)

Dick bond with Tim is pretty strong

He's Clark's favorite Robin and he knows it (Clark can deny it all he wants, but everyone knows it's Dick)

He accepted very well the fact that Damian changed the color of his uniform and turned the R into Redemption (he forgot to tell the boy what Robin was, but now Dick doesn't think it's right for a grown man to throw his moral responsibility onto a child then he is pretty ok with it )

Dick hates very single Bruce's former romantic partners, especially Khoa (Ghostmaker)

When Dick is tired of his siblings shit, he just needs to shout out "Superman" and less than 20min one of them will show up and pick up his brothers

Is Tim doing something potentially dangerous to himself? Here comes Kon carrying Tim like a sack of potatoes in one arm and Bart in another. Is Steph doing something also potentially dangerous to herself? Kara is on her way. Is Damian missing (again)? just one yell is enough and Jon will be landing on the ground while carrying Damian in his arms like a bride

There is this time that Dick ask Krypto (yep, the dog) to pick up the Robin, Dick's smile got bigger and bigger as the dog approached carrying Robin the mouth as if the boy were a puppy. After that, Damian never went two months without giving news about himself to Dick

Dick and Alfred always get the best gifts in the whole house

Dick is the best at reading people, this is not just a matter of body language, but actually understanding the situation and the person themselves. The more time this boy spends with someone, the better he will be able to understand them to the point of seeing transparency even in Bruce's actions

When he was little, during his circus days, he dreamed of being the ringmaster. Nowadays he is so good at reading the room and pulling strings for his own gain that he basically has made his dreams come true

He taught each of his brothers a different circus trick

Everyone blames Bruce for Damian's addiction to adopting pets, the truth is that Bruce just gave the dog, Dick allow Damian keep the cow and Dick encourages the adoption of his little brother's animals just to annoy Bruce and for everyone to blame Bruce even more

If you ask Batman who is the wost Robin, Bruce will say without hesitation that it's Dick and no one will believe in Bruce

Robin!Dick was a very energetic child, he made a lot of jokes and came from the circus and Bruce was a first-time father, so Dick was able to escape from Bruce and the mansion easily

Nowadays the only Robin who can escape Bruce's obsessive surveillance is Damian (who is a fucking ninja)

"You like the boy as if he were your son because he is a menace like you" - Jason Todd

No one believes in Bruce and Jason when they talk how difficult Dick was in the past (Babs, Kor'i, Wally and Roy can proof but they're in Dick side)

Dick knows many languages, but he really dedicated himself to learning Chinese after Cass was added to the family

The same applies for Arabic

He is actually pretty ok in hide on body if one of his siblings ask

knowing many languages can sometimes become a problem, he may forget a word in English and only remember it in a second or third language

"What is the name of that white liquid that can be ingested?"

and some hours later "MILK! The word was MILK!!!"

Dick always tries to spend quality time with all his siblings and checks in on them regularly (Cass and Damian are the most difficult since they don't use social media much)

Dick and Babs currently knows about Jason fanfiction account, they also reads the fics and leaves comments (Jason will never know it)

He also knows about Damian's fanart account, but will never tell the boy that (if you think Bruce and Tim are terrible you've definitely never read anything about Dick Grayson and its show)

His relationship with Bruce is complicated, to the point that they only interact after Damian's arrival. Dick still tries to understand Bruce, but he keeps the bar low

Never touch him without permission

He became a police officer to try to combat corruption, he gave up the profession due to corruptio, and as being Nightwing allows him to attack the corrupt he will be the hero to keep punch corrupt in their face (I really don't get why in hell he becomes a cop)

Jim Gordon hates him

Dick might get exhausted from all the work, vigilantism, his siblings, and Bruce's weekly batshit, and when that happens he just lays on the floor while Haley the dog plays around him (and sometimes one of his siblings join them, usually Cass or Damian)

"Richard what do you want for Christmas?" - Damian asked one time and Dick in full low maintenance mood "A break"

that Christmas Damian gave Dick a brick, apparently the boy confused the words and didn't understand why Dick started laughing when he received the gift, but Damian was very happy to know that his older brother loved the gift to the point of laughing until his belly hurt

and now every time Dick get exhausted he just sit with Haley the Dog and look at the brick and start laugh (yep, he keeps the brick)

Some batkid headcanon: Damian || Duke || Cassandra || Stephanie || Tim || Jason || Dick

[dracaelus]

Ok guys, look at me *shaking with ghostbat energy*

During the events of Batman fear state, scarecrow finds a way to get into batman's mind and mess around a little. So, naturally, batman asks ghostmaker to enter his mind and check what's going on, you know, as you do

This happens in Batman (2016) #113, if you wanna read the whole thing you can start at Batman #106 or (if you wanna see Khoa's introduction and first appearance in the comics) Batman #102. I'm telling you this because right here at this moment, there's a wonderful, incredible potential for ghostbat fics and I need someone to tap into that, so bear with me

In the actual issue, things get resolved a little faster, but here we have your prompt: Bruce and Khoa exploring Bruce's mind, walking around through all of his memories, trying to get to the one they need and find out what's wrong with his brain (besides the usual).

So we can see Bruce at multiple points of his life

Khoa: you know, I think you could've been an actual cute baby if they'd just given you brown contact lenses

Bruce: don't start

Khoa: I mean it, you had potential. But as things are, you were just a small creepy creature

Khoa: like, what's the deal with all the staring?

Bruce: I was attentive and observing.

Khoa: you were strange and off-putting... Not much different than you are now I guess

Khoa: Oh, he's staring at me now. Can you make him stop? Do they come with an off button?

Bruce: It's just a memory, Khoa, it can't hurt you

Baby!Bruce: •-•

We can have kid!Bruce going to the park with his parents; they send him to play with the other kids and about half an hour later he comes back with some company.

Kid! Bruce: *holding a little kid's hand* Mother, Father. Meet your new son, Tobias.

Martha: What

Kid!Bruce: I adopted him as my brother since you wouldn't give me one by your own volition. He's part of the family now. He's very nice, I think you'll like him.

Tobias: :D

Thomas: How did you even get him-

Martha: *carefully* Look, Bruce. Darling. I know you want a little brother...

Kid!Bruce: I really, really want •-•

Martha: ... really, really want. But you can't just steal a kid like that, that's illegal.

Kid!Bruce: -_-

Kid!Bruce: I shall be a criminal, then.

*in the background*

Khoa: so... you've always been like that, hm?

Bruce: stfu i was six

The comedic potential??? The opportunity to throw all your headcanons into it and call it a day???? C'MON!

And you can take a completely comedic approach to it, but may I present you one more aspect of this little adventure because everything is fun and games until I throw horror at it O_o

So, here's the thing about Scarecrow's plan: he creates an evil/monstrous version of Bruce in his memories. It doesn't appear much so it's hard for me to explain what exactly it is and what it's supposed to do, but it's basically:

Ghostmaker just straight up kills it but yk I think there's more potential to this idea, it can be further explored

I, personally, love the idea of this disturbing version of him being able to manifest itself in multiple memory!bruce versions

So, cute but creepy baby bruce? He's about to get creepier

Baby!Bruce: •-•

Baby!Bruce: *eyes go completely black*

Khoa: yk, Bruce... I'm not a kid specialist, but I think there might be something genuinely wrong with mini-you...

Bruce: Khoa, seriously, I thought the only baby here was my younger self. Could you please stop trembling under the stare of a 1 year old-

Baby!Bruce: *turns his head 360 degrees like a kid in a horror movie and starts coughing black goo*

Bruce: ...

Khoa: see, this is why i never wanted kids.

Also, just as a side note, khoa can also show bruce his own memories

So you can do whatever you want with that information. I just really wish that whole plotline had been longer

[distort-opia]

I keep going back to Bruce's mindset in Joker War, and especially what he took away from it, because... it's fascinating how impersonal and yet helplessly personal he is, regarding Joker.

It's obvious to me Tynion has worked with Snyder, especially on works involving Batman & Joker, because Bruce barely sees Joker as a human being. It starts with the way Bruce talks about Joker when fighting the fake Designer:

-- Batman (2016) #93

Bruce equates Joker to the abyss. In a move that surprises no one, he asserts once again that others don't understand Joker-- he isn't a common serial killer, he isn't insane, he's something else.

The theme continues as the plot progresses:

-- Batman (2016) #95

I don't really like that Tynion used a flashback to Bruce and Joker's first interaction in The Man Who Laughs to establish that Joker was this incomprehensible force of evil, even then. It's an inaccurate reading of the comic, and it oversimplifies Joker. There's a lot to be said about how this approach to Joker as less of a person and just a cardboard cut-out of Pure Evil is boring, one-dimensional and has unfortunately infected a lot of people working with the character over at DC, but alas-- not trying to go into the Doylist side of things in this post.

However, the flashback mentioned is meant to tie in to Bruce's hallucination of Alfred later on, the one that gives him the strength and motivation to keep fighting:

-- Batman (2016) #98

Alfred is a figment of Bruce's mind, hence... it's Bruce who puts Joker and death on the same level. Joker is a kind of inevitable force of destruction, something he can't hate. You cannot hate a hurricane, you cannot hate an earthquake. You cannot hate death or an abyss that consumes, because that's simply its nature. What it does.

...And yet. Despite how seemingly impersonal his way of seeing Joker is, there's still a part of Bruce trying to understand, trying to make sense of Joker. There's a little story in Detective Comics detailing Bruce's thoughts during Joker War, in which we see Bruce pondering the following:

-- Detective Comics (2016) #1027 -- The Gift

"Is that the lesson?" It's reminiscent of the questions Bruce addressed Joker through the listening device planted on the corpse in Batman (2016) #93: "Why attack me like this? What are you trying to prove?".

But it's more than an inner conflict. After the conclusion of Joker War, after Bruce walks away (while knowing Joker had the tools to disarm the bomb and would not die), Bruce tells Selina his true thoughts. God bless her heart for pushing his emotionally constipated ass:

-- Batman (2016) #101

Bruce thought of everything Joker did in terms of a lesson. He's thought of Joker's actions as that for a long time now, and there's a painful paradox to it; the points Joker makes about Batman always hurt Gotham and the people around Bruce, but part of him still listens. Part of him still tries to make sense of what Joker is saying and learn. And at the end of the day, even after all the death and destruction Gotham went through as a price... he thought that Joker was right.

He even proceeds to put those lessons into practice. He moves to a townhouse in Gotham, he tries to be closer to the city and belong to it, not be apart from it. Start over, change. And yet, in his new base of operations, we get this:

-- Batman (2016) #106

Out of everything in the original Cave, all the trophies and the reminders, Bruce brought the Joker card with him. There's no other personal element in there, nothing else meant to be decorative or more than just practical. Nothing else but the card on the floor. It's especially interesting when you take into account that Fear State, the major arc that follows Joker War and Ghostmaker's introduction, is about all the ways in which a traumatic past defines or breaks people.

And yet Bruce carries this piece of the past with him. It'll never cease to fascinate me, how much Bruce intellectualizes and dehumanizes Joker, so he can avoid his personhood and the true parameters of their relationship... all while asserting to himself and to others how he's the only one Joker sees as alive in a cold dead world, how he's the only one who matters to Joker. How he's the only one who understands how Joker works, how he's the only one who can stop him.

(Don't even get me started on Miracle Molly being Joker-coded, or Khoa as a psychopathic individual on the side of good Bruce forgives murder for, because hoo boy. Actually I might make a separate post about Fear State, and then another about Ghostmaker... goddammit, brain.)

[mattzerella-sticks]

"You can live a normal life. Fall in love."

I think this scant piece of ranting says a LOT about how Bruce sees Batman. It's not just a duty. It's a curse. Your blessings are also your damnations. Bruce thinks that you cannot fall in love while you are a vigilante (despite COUNTLESS EVIDENCE THAT DISPROVES THIS - Dick and Babs, Clark and Lois, Ollie and Dinah, etc.)

But Bruce has a very myopic viewpoint that leads to a self-fulfilling prophecy. He hasn't had success in romance as Batman. It's Batman's fault. He can't give up Batman. Ergo, he cannot 'find love' in the nuclear family, heteronormative sense because of Batman.

Let's look at the three 'greatest loves' of Batman's life according to his and Ghostmaker's trip into his psyche.

Selina Kyle. Talia al Ghul. Poison Ivy.

I'll work backwards. Ivy is a placeholder because she was never really his. She never loved him, and his love for her was chemically induced. But he has her there, why? Maybe to say that it doesn't work out because she chose someone else.

Talia. The mother of his child who is also the Demon's Head. It would never work because of his strict code against killing and her ambivalence towards it. Ironically, they have the healthiest relationship imo that probably was born from necessary co-parenting. While they don't care for what the other does, they respect and care for each other and have deep history. He thinks if he can't make it work with the mother of his kid, who can he make it work with?

Selina Kyle. Probably the closest (at this point in canon) Bruce has ever come to having a relationship that works. But every time it looks like it'll be a sure hit, something gums up the works. Most of the time, it's each other as there are key aspects of their identity that neither are willing to compromise for. And usually, when there is a compromise, it's usually on Selina's part whereas Bruce can continue being Batman. That puts a huge power imbalance in the relationship. It doesn't work out because Selina will always be drawn back to crime, and Batman will have to stop her. Bruce supposes that's what you get for falling for a criminal.

In all three, Bruce creates logical reasons why Batman is incapable of having a relationship and uses that to justify why he cannot have romance in his life. Why having this duty is a curse. Why he is showing love by getting his kids 'out' of the life, through whatever means necessary.

However, with Selina taking a chunk out of crime through a grey method, she is pulling at a foundational aspect of his personality - I'd argue the safety net Bruce created for himself when he was that boy in the alley - and, in turn, making the Batman/Zur persona go nuts. Zur sees her methods not a way to help Gotham but as an attack on him since, if this can save Gotham what is the point of Batman? What was the point of Bruce's vow? What was it all for?

Zur is giving Bruce a reason to keep going, to keep putting on the mask, so he doesn't have to confront what's under the mask when there's no crime to fight. To deal with his personal life and relationships and mhi that need to be dealt with.

And Selina and the Batfamily are right, this shouldn't have turned into a war. They shouldn't be fighting. This is an unforseen side effect of them fulfilling Bruce's wish which is to make Gotham safe when, in reality, maybe thats not what Batman wants because what safe Gotham would need Batman?

Almost like when in Infinite Crisis, Superman of earth one asks his earth two counterpart: "if your earth was perfect, why did it need a superman?"

A safe Gotham doesn't need a Batman and, after all the stress and trauma Bruce has suffered since he put on that cowl, he is not ready to hang it up. It is his burden and his joy. As much as he grouses about the crime and how much work it is to keep Gotham 'clean' he hates sitting on his hands with nothing to do.

Ironically, Batman of Zur En Arrh reminds me of what happened to Robin in Teen Titans Go! in 'Uncle Jokes' when Starfire started acting like Cyborg and Beast Boy, breaking the natural order of how he saw the world and making him go cuckoo. The same thing is happening to Bruce.

He needs to realize that he can still be Batman but he can also not be in control. That Bruce is the one stopping him from finding 'love' in a traditional sense, not Batman. That he has love and a family and he does not need to keep pushing everyone away because he thinks it's better for them and he knows best.

Batman is Gotham's greatest hero, Bruce Wayne's love, but he's also Bruce's greatest rogue. Duality.

[thepineconelord]

OK SO, I found this really interesting reddit thread talking about ghostmaker!!! So, ghostmaker is from/operates in Singapore, but apparently, almost nothing about him makes sense to be Singaporean, which I kinda knew but not in detail. (People were pointing out how hot his suit would be, which I thought was funny)

His name in particular is odd bcuz all three parts of it essentially come from different origins. "Minh" is Vietnamese, "khoa" is apparently Chinese, and "Khan" is Mongolian but also exists in some parts of the Middle East and what-not.

After some quick googling for myself, I've found that apparently "khoa" can be Vietnamese also, so that's interesting if true. I've also seen a couple of places say that "minhkhoa" is a Singaporean name, which the reddit thread seems to disagree with. Also, evidently, "khoa" is used as a last name, too. I have no idea if that's more or less common than usage in a first name.

So "khan" is of Mongolian origin, but according to Wikipedia, is most commonly found today among Muslims in South Asia, with the countries with the highest usage of this name being India, Pakistan Afghanistan, Bangladesh, and Iran.

From all of this, it's very likely that minhkhoa has some sort of multicultural origin, I could speculate that one of his parents is likely Vietnamese, but we really have no clue.

By my best guess, his name would be written like: 汗明科??

I would love opinions/more knowledge on this because I just did my best with my limited tools and knowledge, and I basically know fuckall.

[theglidingbat]

My friend sent me this one post about how Shahrukh Khan would be a great face claim for Minhkhoa and I didn't think much of it, even laughed it off, as I'm someone who grew up watching the guy.

Until I watched Jawaan.

Not only that it was this ONE pic that really did "Shahrukh Khan as irl faceclaim for Minhkhoa khan"

I'm definitely using this man as references from now on.

And for other desi minhkhoa fans (are they any?) This may a bit weird but HEAR ME OUT

He would make a great DILF-y ghostmaker.

Even if it may not be yk.... ethically correct casting or whatever.

I'm just saying I SEE it and he's especially an amazing reference for drawing at LEAST.

[jakowskis]

Day 8 - Are there any scenes (or even full episodes) that you can’t stand? If yes, and you could go back in time and rewrite them, how would you fix them?

LITERALLY HAD TO PUT THIS UNDER THE CUT TOO BC ITS SO LONG FJSDHFKJSDFHKDSJFHKDSJDSHFSDKJFHK I HATE THIS FUCKING SHOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

im not gonna rlly propose fix-its, i just like to bitch. haha. anyway, in no particular order…

the owen & jack jail scene in dmw. it’s sooo frustratingly underwhelming. they had the perfect chance to explore some really interesting stuff with jack + his relationship with his immortality, and to explore the parallels drawn between the two of them, and jack suddenly having someone who might also "live" forever to keep him company… and then they Didn’t. it’s suuuch a let down. and the first half of that scene being ‘light-hearted’ and gross is so irritating and disrespectful to owen. absolutely the wrong tone. that ep pisses me tf off.

i have a lot of issues with owen & jack’s relationship in general. in aditd, when owen tries to drown himself + finds he can’t, and jack’s reaction is to 1) throw a soulless flirty line at him, and 2) ask him “how long he’s gonna do this for”... that scene bugs the fuck out of me. like what the fuck. what a monstrous way to react to someone who’s suicidal. and i’d like it if the show ever bothered to explore why jack seems to view owen’s suicidality with such disdain (because it’s a consistent thing; he’s also callous in combat), like that could also provide insight into his character - but they don’t! ugh! so it just makes him look like a fucking dick and makes me resent him. especially when he’s a lot more sympathetic to john in out of time. like why is he so nasty to owen in particular. fuck knows, they don’t bother touching on it. missed opportunities!!!

and, returning to the way dmw treats owen, i hateeee how he’s treated once he’s dead, by the characters AND the writers. everyone on the team is cruel towards him during his undead arc. they warm up again to him later, but the show itself decides he’s no longer relevant after that + seems to act like all his angst went away and he’s fine again. torchwood SUCKS at emotional continuity. the only time it comes up is that they REPEATEDLY have the antagonist of the episode make a point to remind owen + the viewers how pathetic and useless he is now that he’s dead (the nostravite + the ghostmaker both do it). and it’s just.. corny, and disrespectful, like come on.

actually dead man walking as a whole... i just hate that episode. i talked about it more here, it’s just….. ridiculous, and bad, and embarrassing 😭 i had to skip the fucking fight scene at the end i didn’t have the strength i get secondhand embarrassment too easily HFDJKSHFKDJS. the concept isn’t terrible it’s the fucking execution its sooo… idek how i’d fix that mess. i don’t like it. blegh. and like i said, tw does emotional continuity so poorly, like i don’t really have a question i can fully bitch about this on (well? maybe. we’ll see) but the way they go through significant traumas every ep and the emotional weight of those events is never touched on in the following eps... like the shit in dmw would’ve been a lot for owen to deal with but by aditd he’s got other problems. it’s just… ugh.

and if dmw is the second worst use of bad cgi, we must talk about the first… abaddon. i love end of days so fucking much, the interpersonal shit going on between the team is FASCINATING and so good, the mutiny scene is so good, them all being haunted by their past (aka the events of the past 12 episodes) is so good, for torchwood it’s a GOOD episode - and then there’s this fucking ridiculously embarassing terrible monster from the depths of hell stomping everywhere and roaring and i literally cannot describe how hard i was laughing when i first watched that ep. genuinely hysterical. especially after getting gut-punched like thirty times throughout the rest. and whatever jack did to defeat it... so fucking bad. SO fucking bad. idk what the fuck that was but it was a MESS. and the worst possible way to wrap up the “something’s coming out of the darkness O.O” bullshit (which, they didn’t, that continued into owen’s arc, like cmon…) it was just a shit show. see it’s hard for me to hypothesize about how they coulda fixed that bc it’s so bad but it’s kind of iconic. im kind of glad it’s there bc it’s just… torchwood wouldn’t be torchwood if it wasn’t fucking awful. but also. shudders.

ok ok i swear ill stop complaining abt owen-specific shit but ofc thts what i take most issue with, and a lot of my complaints abt the others are less about specific scenes and more generalized things, so ill talk about them when i talk about their characters… ill talk about this more in owen’s section, but i have… problems with the end of days ending, with the hugs. i like that scene a lot, the connotations are fascinating, but the way owen and jack are framed in it is…. eugh…. and most people miss the fact that it’s ‘eugh’? a lot of people see it as a sweet scene and that’s… oof… again i’ll get into it more later but i wish it was framed differently. torchwood could never make up it’s mind on how it saw the characters, lmao.

adjacent subject… the way jack’s return is framed. i HATE the way they just bounce back to normal once jack comes back. like, him leaving would’ve been fucking traumatizing. and the show doesn’t properly give closure to any of them. (it does a tiny bit to gwen + ianto, but like… owen’s abandonment issues are a consistent theme in the show, esp s1. his ‘did he fix you?’ line is unnecessarily sooo heartbreaking. what do you mean ur not gonna give a single moment to those two. Okay.) tbh a lot of these complaints are about the fact that i desperately wish torchwood was a show that cared about the emotions + mental health of their characters when it simply Is Not. tw is, regrettably, not the character-focused show it should be. and i hate it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

a few last owen specific things…. i hate the owen growling at the weevil scene in combat. like what was the deal with that. they don’t rlly explain it in the commentary either it’s just. ?? but again it’s one of those things thts like. i can’t imagine a world where this show was actually good + didn’t have random weird cringe shit sprinkled in HFKSDJF it’s part of the charm. sigh

also owen & mark shouldve fucked. combat should’ve been gayer.

captain jack harkness should’ve been LESS gay. the excessive tongue kissing was fucking gross FSHDFJKDS like. i know that scene’s important to a lot of people + i respect it as an important moment in queer television + the way it’s framed as this big romantic moment, but the actual kissing is just. gross. why did they have to kiss like that. there are better ways to kiss. sincerely, someone who’s very picky about kisses + still covers my eyes like a kid at like 60% of onscreen kisses. 

tkks stopwatch scene. ianto why are you flirting w the man who killed ur girlfriend four episodes ago. fucking evil. like ok lmao 👍thats not bad writing whatsoever to never explore that in-show and only do it in an audio 10 yrs later. sure.

all of them randomly having empathy for the alien whale in meat has always driven me crazy. i thought we were gonna find out that the whale had like, empathy-enhancing powers or telepathy or smth bc i couldn’t understand why any of those assholes cared sm. like, in tkks we find out the glove is fueled by empathy + that’s why none of them can use it. like, these are people who aren’t naturally empathetic. nothing wrong with that, i’m like that lol. so i was really thrown off when they randomly all deeply cared about an alien creature. especially owen. like, i get randomly being moved by something, happens to the best of us, but the way it affected all of them + so profoundly felt ooc to me and has always bugged me a little. s2 tried so badly to humanize a group that s1 painted as absolute assholes, and i personally LOVE that they’re assholes. i am not the biggest fan of s2, lol.

a lot of tosh scenes bug me, bc the show generally has very little respect for her + her capabilities, but ill get into that more when i talk about her as a character. specifically some of the tosh & owen scenes fucking INFURIATE me. he’s so nasty to her. the end of adam (‘i dont do apologies’ and the smug little smile), and laughing at her when he agrees to the date in reset, and ‘in your dreams, tosh’ in countrycide all stand out. ive complained about it before + ill do it again; idk wtf they were trying to tell the viewers with tosh/owen. i like the concept of the ship, because it has potential - i absolutely HATE it within the context of the show. every ‘towen moment’ just works to humiliate tosh. it’s awful.

killing beth. im sure other people have done essays on the way torchwood treats its poc, esp its woc (although, knowing this fandom, maybe not lmao), and the lisa sitch was enough of a mess… the beth sitch could’ve been done differently. her essentially committing suicide by cop was fucking awful. ugh.

also the twist that suzie was evil + ten steps ahead could’ve been done much better. that should’ve been better written. 

as i said, i dont even like tosh/owen, but the fact that you never see them dance in something borrowed was just plain mean tbh. u can see like a millisecond of a frame if you pause in the right place, but still, why not include a fraction of a nice moment between them. cmon. something like that might’ve actually made me like them more

i hate the blowfish confrontation in kkbb it’s corny. cmon

i bitched about adam a lot the other day (again, here)… idek how i’d get that episode up to my standards. im petty about s2 as a whole and ive been meaning to try to put thought into what would fix it for me for months and i haven’t gotten around to it cuz its such a daunting thought. grr. i think i’d just completely redo the way adam influences them all. i literally don’t like what any of their altered selves offer. there’s no insight into them i find worthwhile. ig the shit abt jack’s past is worth keeping but i’d redo it completely bc i hate the gray arc. i’d have to find some way to keep the conference scene though, or get that new character info + vibe elsewhere. bah

[5-7-9]

Ehhh if I would guess how the batfam thinks about ghostmaker 🤔💭

Dick obviously hates him for his bad history with Bruce but he also just doesn’t believe he meets the standard. Dick’s standard’s for Bruce’s partner include basically the perfect person ever (Clark) or someone that can get Batman to rest (Selina). Something which Khoa resembles neither.

Jason would get really jealous(?) or outraged that Khoa has killed before and is still being treated better than he ever did. He could’ve possibly gotten along with Khoa if Khoa weren’t aligned with Bruce.

Tim thinks his skills and assets would be useful, but Khoa’s personality would be a hinderance. He can’t predict whether or not Khoa will be on his side. He just does whatever he wants, and that certain doesn’t include prioritizing the safety of others.

Damian can understand him. They could bond over sword fighting training honestly. It’s the honor and honing your skills that’s relatable. But he is still aligned with his father along with his no killing rule, anytime Khoa makes exceptions he would probably find it dishonorable especially when he never makes promises.

Cass understands too. The fighting is all she knew, all she trained to be. But that is exactly why she doesn’t like Khoa. Cass grew away from training to be a human weapon because she found empathy for life. She’d probably pity him too, in a way.

Duke would find him really weird. He fights bad guys sure, but did he seriously name himself Ghostmaker??? His past history with Batman is already a red flag, but the fact that Khoa just likes fighting is just weird. Does he have any hobbies???

I’m not sure about Steph, I do vaguely know about Khoa’s son. If Steph knew about it she’d probably make that comparison to her dad again. Even without knowing that, she might find it unnerving for someone to fight for nothing. Fighting just to fight? No end goal? Why??? That’s fucking suspicious

Barbara thinks he’s useful, but his motives are too annoyingly difficult to handle. She can only hope to rely on Bruce to do whatever he can.

[boyfridged]

In your last ask, you mentioned Zdarsky's bias toward Khoa but didn't really elaborate on it. You also mentioned the Khoa had been retconned barely a year after being introduced. I'll admit I don't know diddly squat about Ghostmaker and honestly I don't really care to with all these back and forths regarding his character. But could you perhaps shed some light on what Khoa is all about in his short page time for someone who doesn't know much about him but is maybe still on the fence about it?

i'm so sorry to disappoint you but i was brief about it mainly because i don't really care much for khoa! i think he's a fun character to play with and i enjoyed his introduction & some of the comics he was in, but at the end of the day his existence as an anti-batman is completely pointless and in my opinion, meddles with bruce's backstory in a way that i do not appreciate. tldr, khoa is someone who bruce meets during his pre-batman training. he is supposed to be an anti-batman figure because he is deprived of "care" and the "philosophy of love." his modus operandi involves killing and his main thing is traveling from city to city and dismantling the existing criminal structures. i'm not sure if at the moment they are still pushing it (since he also was residing in gotham for a while?). either way way, it sounds like a joke to me- as in, it's just not feasible at all and completely ignores why crime exists in the first place and what it is in a social sense. (btw isn't it curious that so many batman writers genuinely believe that if batman just started eradicating rogues it would simply work. i'm thinking about countdown with earth 51 bruce whose biggest issue is just that he's lonely and the assumption that what khoa does actually works too... what is going on with the dc editorial.) so overall i don't think he contributes much to the lore at all. i don't mind him existing per se, because as i said when written by tynion it was quite harmless in its lack of nuance and general silliness. but zdarsky who unironically seems to have a ghostbat hard-on used his character to throw talia under the bus (or as i always joke. make her into a yaoi victim.) i don't recall the exact details of how he changed his intro/the ghostbat backstory because thankfully my memory is bad enough that i can forget the majority of his bullshit though. but i still think it's shocking that he did it just within a year from the first iteration.

[bat-fuckers-incorrect-quotes]

Selina added [Minkhoa Khan] to the chat

Selina changed [Minkhoa Khan]’s name to [Khoa]

Khoa: what is this and why was I added

Selina: i saw you leaving wayne manor without your shirt yesterday and you left some underwear in Bruce’s room

Selina: i know what you did

Selina: so yeah, welcome to the batfuckers

Harley: 🥳welcome 

Joker: ooooooo fresh meat >:)

Nashton: hey bestie khoa 💅

Clark: hi! 

Gordon: Is that the Ghostmaker? 

Khoa replied to Joker: is that the Joker? Why is he here?

Nygma: riddle me this, do birds fly?

Khoa: yes?

Nygma: there’s the answer to your question. Also bats has fucked him like a lot

Joker: well, birds don’t always fly. They can’t after you hit them with a crowbar!

Nashton: so true, bestie joker

Khoa: wait. Selina, aren’t you batman’s wife? And youre just cool with all of these people having sex with him? 

Selina: oh yeah i’m his wife and yeah im just cool with it

Selina: he isn’t the only one with a side piece or two 👀@harley

Harley: 😘Ivy says hi too babe

Talia: I am also Beloved’s wife, he just never chooses to acknowledge our prior engagement. 

Harley: Tali! We never see you here! Good to see u again

Nashton: omg hey bestie talia

Talia: Hello to you as well, Edward. 

Harvey: selina, did you really need to add my work phone to this hellhole?

Hush: she did the same to me. 

Harley: oh that was me, not selina! I thought it’d be funny for you guys to go to crime boss meetings and just have this chat blowing up your phone the whole time lol

Nygma: riddle me this, quinn, how would it feel if someone of about my height threw a baseball bat directly at your head?

Harley: not good. Your point?

Nygma: stop adding our work phones to this chat.

Harley: oh go fuck yourself 

Khoa: how do i leave

Nashton: that’s simple bestie. you don’t. 

[sing-me-under]

YOUR ART IS SO PRETTY! :) also as a fellow dsmp/batfam lover I was wondering who would be who if you made an au of the other? (From batfam to dsmp or dsmp to batfam, you can choose!) me personally Tommy gives a bit of Damian,,

Hello hello! Thank you very much ✨✨✨ I’m glad you like my art!

About the DSMP x Batfam AU…. I really had to think this one through. I love both of them, but they have such different character dynamics and ideologies. Even the very worlds they are set in are like complete opposites. However, I have also read like so many (so many) superhero AU fics for the DSMP (before the fandom tag got overwhelmingly oversaturated), so I have some thoughts on…

DSMP Characters as The Batfam

You’re right. c!Tommy does feel like he’d be a good match for Damian. Loves animals? Feral? Stabby? Genuinely good? Artistically-inclined? The youngest? If we’re going by characters traits, Tommy would absolutely be Damian… But if I did that, I’d spend way too much time comparing characters who can’t be compared… So my list is going to be based on vibes. Same vibes are also why I’m choosing to make L’Manberg the main members. I’m completely disregarding age, motivations, personality, etc. This is all (mostly) vibes. There is some justification for them.

I wasn’t able to think of a match for everyone, but I got a decent chunk.

Wilbur as Batman

Fundy as Nightwing

Quackity as Oracle

Tommy as Red Hood

Tubbo as Red Robin

Jack as Spoiler

Niki as Batwoman

Ranboo as Black Bat

Slime as Batgirl 2 (also Cass but specifically Batgirl-era)

Eret as Talia

Philza as Ghostmaker

Kristen as Martha and Thomas

Technoblade as Azrael

Karl and Sapnap as Harley and Ivy (who’s who? Idk)

Dream as the entire Rogue Gallery — every single rogue just compressed into one blob of a man

I felt compelled to draw Tommy as a Robin and Red Hood.

Notes under the cut. They’re explanations for what little of my thought process can be converted into comprehensible words. It’s long. I ramble A LOT. Read at your own peril.

I’m pretty sure the obvious explanations are Wilbur, Tubbo, Techno, Karl&Sapnap, and Dream.

c!Wilbur is so much like Bruce Wayne — it’s kind of not funny. There’s the obvious “led children to fight a war” thing, the “compulsively acquiring children because they won’t leave him alone” thing, the “becomes evil immediately after crossing the no kill thing” thing, and the “sad little meow meow wet rag of a man but still extremely charismatic” thing…

c!Tubbo and Tim Drake are the closest 1:1 of this entire list.

Okay, okay. c!Techno as Jean-Paul. The vibes are wrong if we’re talking about canon Azrael, but I’m specifically thinking of fanfiction/“goes to family dinners WFA-style” Azrael.

c!Karl and c!Sapnap have such “married anti-villains befriending the heroes” vibes. I love them so much in superpower AUs even when they’re not with c!Quackity. As I’m writing this, I’m remembering that Schlatt and Quackity are also very often written in a Joker x Harley Quinn situation, but we’re talking about Batfam!

Dream is like the caricature of a Gotham Rogue(TM). He’s got the sympathetic motivation sticky noted onto a decades’ worth of terrorism with only the vaguest hope of redemption that he’ll probably never actually get because he’s too popular as a villain. I could make a point for any character interpretation (both fanpn and canon) of c!Dream as Ivy, Penguin, Riddler, Scarecrow, Black Mask, Joker, etc. (also, not a Rogue, but Ra’s too)

The thing about the DSMP is that it almost feels like a reversal of DC. It’s like a mirror, the same solution from a reversed conclusion. That also means DSMP characters appear un-traumatized and naive then get completely fucked over by the sheer horror that is the SMP, meanwhile DC characters appear fresh from traumatized and find themselves in a position to believe in goodness. The late-stage DSMP was filled with isolation while DC heroes always end up in found families.

It’s why I couldn’t think of a proper match for Damian.

What I loved about late-stage c!Tommy is that he keeps (disguises) that hope and love for people despite everything. Meanwhile, Damian’s character development is learning all that from the ground up. The vibes are similar but not the same. Honestly, for a hot second, I considered Purpled as Damian but alas, not enough Purpled content. If I were to project my own timeline of events upon the DSMP, Purpled would make a great Damian-esque match.

But that does not change the fact that Tommy as Red Hood has the best vibes.

No one else is quite as “doomed by the narrative and irreversibly changed yet somehow still painfully compassionate” in the same way Tommy and Jason are (also the “rejecting their father/brother but still loving them unconditionally). Their vibes are truly something.

I’m also very stern in my belief that c!Tommy should never kill because it would negatively impact his character development, but he very very easily could have gone the Red Hood route. By technicality, it’s more like Tommy as Robin 2, but I so dearly love the potential of villain! and anti-villain!Tommy. It’s such an underutilized concept. (Also I wrote a protege AU like way back and it makes me think of Red Hood now lol)

But originally, I flip-flopped between Fundy as Red Hood and Tommy as Nightwing, but I dunno. The logic was there but the vibes weren’t.

If we were considering a timeline of events, Tommy would make a great Robin 1 with Fundy as Robin 2 . Dick Grayson was the OG child hero, much like Tommy. He was angry and craved justice but he was also full of Light. Meanwhile, c!Fundy grew up in Tommy’s shadow.

However, Fundy also has that “if I can’t make them smile, I’ll make them cry” thing that Villain Dick Graysons also tend to have. Dick is always like four steps away from flipping a switch and becoming a supervillain. He tries so fucking hard to do good, but if he ever determines that “being good” isn’t enough to “do good,” he takes over the world. But Dick would also like step away from toxic energy by holing himself up in his apartment filled with depression, which is exactly what Fundy did.

Fundy and Dick are more “blood-soaked wet cats with strained smiles and bowling alley carpet polos” and Tommy and Jason are more “dramatic Greek tragedies.”

The Batgirls and adjacent female Bat vigilantes came to me immediately, but it’s not as long as the above.

Quackity as Barbara Gordon. He followed Wilbur filled with Hope and Justice. Quackity makes an excellent Batgirl 1. His Las Nevadas arc would then be Oracle but Lawful Evil and also completely isolated from any friends, family, or rational support. Quackity isn’t inherently bad. He still has good intentions, and he’s still good at heart, irregardless of how he portrays himself. He’s the classic femme fatale, including the whole sexist Hollywood “he needs a strong male love interest to take care of him” thing because he is absolutely spiraling on his own. Anyway, I am a fiancés shipper, so this would lead to a Birds of Prey-esque team up of LN and Kinoko.

Jack Manifold has Stephanie Brown’s “glitter bomb in the face” and “functions entirely on spite but also is just really tired of being hurt” energy. Jack isn’t quite Stephanie, but his dynamic with Tubbo made me consider him as Spoiler. Also consider: Jack and The Nuke being Steph’s Robin 4 arc.

Slime is so much like Batgirl-era Cassandra. There’s a lot of “innocent vs naive, manipulated by those with intentions, both evil and morally just” going on. Batgirl!Slime and RH!Tommy would have such a dynamic. I think about Fort Big a lot.

It is literally a crime that c!Jack Manifold and c!Slime never interacted in the DSMP.

Ranboo as Black Bat. I don’t know how to explain it, but Tim Drake and Cassandra have such a great dynamic (albeit one that I’m only familiar with in fanfics). I was originally going to say Ranboo as Orphan, but I don’t think he’s quite there. Maybe GhostBoo as Orphan.

Speaking of ghosts, GhostBur as Carrie Kelley’s Robin. He’s in the wrong places at the wrong times and (unknowingly) shoves himself in situations, and he’s got that unfair “why” going on during Doomsday. Unfortunately, GhostBur suffers from memory loss and is often willfully ignorant. I think in an AU space where’s he’s an actual character and not the echo of an idea, he’d make a great elseworld-type Robin.

c!Niki is a WLW revolutionary war veteran with a very close relationship with Wilbur. There’s more, but again, Vibes.

Now here’s where my hot takes truly lie: Philza as Ghostmaker and Eret as Talia.

We all like Dadza but c!Phil? Absolutely not a Dad. If you actually look at c!Phil without the rose-tinted lens of his content creator’s dad energy, c!Phil and Ghostmaker aere weirdly similar? I really don’t know how to explain it exactly, but I think that Phil would have brought Wilbur up as like this weird amalgamation of BTK-era Bruce, Phantom One, and Clownhunter, leading to Wilbur eventually being… not abandoned because Phil wanted Wilbur to have more independence… but struggling to make it on his own. Eventually, Wilbur would follow his parents’ (Mumza would be Martha AND Thomas) footsteps and become something that’s essentially the same but different. Like how Ghostmaker is basically Tynion’s Batman OC but somehow more edgy except Wilbur is in the opposite direction. Like how Martha and Thomas saved people through philanthropy and surgery and Bruce wanted to save people in his own way too. Phil and Kristen influenced Wilbur towards fighting crime… Also I could totally see c!Phil becoming a crime fighter as a fun and challenging art form rather than any genuine interest in being a good person. c!Phil’s got that immortal dilemma where he’s basically a sociopath running purely on an ingrained and steadily eroding moral code.

Now… Eret as Talia. Where do I begin? I love Talia. She’s such a badass but also she’s a kind person who believes in Bruce’s cause but she’s also extremely loyal to her father’s cause but she loves her family so much but she’s also a assassin princess but the world is against her and everything she is will only continue going downhill until she either becomes straight up evil or stands her ground. I love the characterization of Talia who chose to side with “the greater good” against the person she loves and more has to live with the burden of this decision for the rest of her life and continue to do what needs to be done even, for better or worse… Did I say Talia? I meant Eret. Wait, no, it’s both. That applies to both. Talia’s choice is betraying Bruce to aid her in running a global assassin cult and killing people. Eret’s choice is betraying his revolution to run a monarchy and enforcing taxes. Yes, the vibes are the same.

This has been my TED talk. Thank you for reading this far.

[maniacwatchestheworld]

figured I should reply to your response so here goes: I understand where you're coming from, I would love it too if they made Harvey or Bruce or both of them queer! It would fit, open up narrative opportunities and also simply be nice, considering how much if a staple Batman is in pop culture. And like I said in the other ask it's a possibility that Harvey gets to be made bi eventually, moreso than Bruce.

However, while DC did recently realize they have a growing demographic of lgbt+ people or allies that like reading their stories and started acknowledging that part of the fandom more, it is still a giant company ran and owned by predominantly straight (old) men. Is representation getting better? yes! but it is not anywhere near the point where DC would let their editors sign off on making their flagship queer because the majority of their readers is not queer themselves and the loudest part of them are actively against representation. Have you seen the reactions to that panel where it looked like Bruce and Khoa almost kissed? This one might have been DC testing the waters and the loudest reactions were overwhelmingly negative or confused. Do you know the Telltale games? The devs wanted to make Bruce bi to allow the players to romance more characters but DC vetoed that decision. Yes, there are prominent queer characters in DC but most of them are either wlw like Ivy or Harley, young or teenage characters like Tim Drake or characters that have always been queer and only later became more popular like Constantine or Ghostmaker. This doesn't make them bad rep, not at all! but these are characters that are more "safe" to make queer either because they are minor characters or because their male readers won't feel as "threatened" (which is stupid ofc queer rep doesn't threaten anyone but that's what bigots say they are "threatened") by them because they're young or wlw. DC has a problem with adding queer rep for their pre-existing adult male characters, it is getting better but it is still there.

For the part about TwoFace showing up a lot recently: I get why it would seem like they are pushing him for some unspecified reason lately but they are doing this with all of their rogues from time to time. You gave an example yourself: "Like did the Riddler get this much love when the The Batman movie came out?" Yes: The movie, Dano's comic run, Killing Time, the story arc right before the current TEC run, getting the first comic in the One Bad Day series, the appearances in the Audio Adventures, showing up in Batman Unburied and that version getting his own spin-off podcast, appearances in other comics or the HQ show and ofc that comic in last year's Valentine's anthology. They did have him appear in multiple projects including as a lead character, but so far that didn't really build up to anything. On the contrary, DC had implicitly confirmed him as bi in the Valentine's short over a year ago but so far his queerness has not come up again in comics, not even implicitly. The HQ show made him gay, yes, but the HQ show is made for a different demographic than regular DC canon and also got to make other characters queer too without that having any bearing on the comics. And the Riddler is a character that has been queercoded a lot more over the years than Harvey has, so if DC is this vague (and that's what that Valentine's comic was, it was very very vague to give plausible deniability) about the queerness of a character who most readers probably read as fem or queer in a majority of his appearances anyways, then they will most likely be even more vague about characters like Harvey or Bruce, who most readers read as very masculine straight men.

Again I am not trying to ruin your fun, I completely agree with you that making Harvey or Bruce queer would be great and that DC should just do it! They should not care about alienating their straight audience and could gain a lot of queer fans! But it is not very likely that they will and if they do anything in that direction at all it unfortunately most likely will only be some vague hint at Harvey's sexuality that can be brushed off as just something good friends would say or do (like they did with Riddler's Valentine's comic). Which is unfortunate but as long as most of the decisions at DC are made by (conservative) straight men it is better to not get your hopes up too much or else you'll get disappointed

Sadly (?) I don't have nearly as much to say here. This is just an excellently formulated response. And thank you for answering my question in regards to rogues getting random spikes of love from the company! I've only been in comics fandom for ~3 months, so there's still a lot I don't know, especially when it comes to general comic trends. This was very informative and I do greatly appreciate it!

Ultimately, we can't tell what the future holds until we get there, but I am glad that at the very least, you agree with me that making Harvey and/or Bruce queer would be the right call for DC to make, even if it's unlikely.

But just one possible counterpoint... Someone at DC had to sign off on Gotham Knights, right? The CW ain't exactly a bastion of queer representation given how they famously sent Castiel to superhell at the end of Supernatural and how they made Jughead straight (as far as I can tell) in Riverdale even though he's ace in the comics. And yet one of the main characters of Gotham Knights is confirmed to be trans in the very first episode! While general LGBT representation is getting a lot better these days, trans representation for main characters is still fairly unheard of. If any show is going to have the sheer gumption and audacity (/pos) to make Bruce Wayne interested in men, it would be Gotham Knights! And I think there is a decently good chance that Harvey will get into a mlm relationship in this show if the kids are already being confirmed as queer!

Is it likely? Probably not. But it is possible!

[dracaelus]

Batman #105

I know bruce is just being a petty brat as usual but also... I bet this question has been underlying a lot of their interactions in the last few years. At some point, khoa's obsession with chasing bruce around the world to force him into fights stopped being about simply proving that he's a better vigilante and started being also a way to check if he changed his mind and if not, if he could be convinced

Batman #103

and all of this culminates in this moment in argentina, when he finally manages to get over his pride enough to make his proposal - but not enough to admit why he's making it. Why is his problem if bruce dies fighting his war on crime - if and why he cares about him.

I just love the way these flashbacks scenes manage to convey how much their time together had an impact on khoa - him being the one to propose to bruce that they work together was such a huge fucking deal. I love how you can see that he had to get over a shit ton of stuff to finally decide to make the proposal literally at the last minute - but you can also see it was not enough. And not even just bc of him not admitting his feelings - later when you find out about his backstory it only gets worse. 'Cause yk what? He really did have a chance.

By the time we get to argentina, he had already managed (somehow begrudgingly) to get over most of his problems with bruce's mission and his promise to his parents, bc he is willing to compromise - to a certain point. He say's, "We'll start in a small city in southast Asia, and systematically dismantle it's criminal underworld (...) And then we'll go to the next, and the next. (...) In time, maybe we could even tackle a city like Gotham."

But why start in a "small city in southast Asia", specifically? They travelled the whole world. Couldn't it be any small city, anywhere? Does it make any difference where they start?

My bet is that actually it does. The Midas Empire is from the south east asia. We know from dick that ghostmaker operates mostly in south east asia. He's about to spend a good part of his career working to dismantle the Midas Empire, his biggest challenge and his main motivation for becoming a vigilante, so he had to start there. What he's actually proposing to bruce here is that they work together to reach khoa's goal, one that will take years for them to acomplish, and by the time they finish it, they'll be so fucking good and have so many resources that they'll finally be able to start working on the gotham problem and make sure that bruce also reaches his goal (tho i'm sure he would be delighted if bruce just changed his mind until then). But he won't even tell bruce that.

And sure, there are other problems, bc they don't actually agree on their methods to save any city, even if it's not gotham (and it's not really just a matter of not agreeing about the murder stuff, tho dc writers have been writing khoa and bruce's conflict focusing just on that aspect since tynion left the chat) but you can't tell me things would've happened the same way had bruce known all of this. He throws some pretty harsh words at khoa to make him leave him alone and almost immediately kinda regrets it; most of it comes from the fact that bruce has spent years trying to find proof that khoa's cares about anything (about him!) and having khoa denying it repeatedly, sometimes hurting other people to prove his point (if this sounds like a lot of bruce's other relationships, part of it is bc he has a type and part is bc he has a big heart full of hope, mind you). By the time argentina happens, khoa has almost managed to convince him he's right (he might even be fully convinced at the time, tho we know he must have changed his mind later when he tries to mend things with khoa asking him to join batman inc. the first time).

He might not have accepted khoa's offer anyway even if he knew all of this... and I wouldn't go so far as saying their relationship would've been any better than it was.... but bruce might not have burned the bridge between them that day. Bruce might never had said "You're sick. There's a part of you that's broken and you're angry that it's not broken in me". Their divorce could have been more amicable. It might not have lasted 20 years.

Just imagine, a batman story where everything is the same, except he and ghostmaker text regularly and even get to work together every once in a while over the years (much to dick's distress). You can't, because khoa never tells bruce shit unless it's some highly encrypted stuff that might impliy something if you look at it in a certain angle through rose colored lenses under a full moon in july.